Superman – Gunns & Roses

Full transcript of Superman – Gunns & Roses.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. Um, and I guess it's just the tantalizing menu, friends and lovers. If you weren't a hu um, every February, which we still need to do the Splooshies awards by the way, Oti. But, um, every February we do a Reference Degustation because we're wankers. Uh, but essentially we cover different filmmakers. Miyazaki, ooh, actually, Oti. They're doing a Remastering 4K screening of Princess Mononoke, otherwise known as Mononoke-hime, otherwise known as AKA giving away the jewel dagger and risking it all.

0:42Oti: So I guess we're going,

0:44KT: oh, absolutely. I know it's showing an IBA IMAX Melbourne, but I don't know about Sydney. Uh, um, so very exciting. Uh, we've also done tka, uh, Quentin, Jerome Tarantino, I always forget Takashi Miike, um, as well as Martin Scorsese and Spike Lee. If you're looking for more tastings, we just did some Sydney Film Festival, upcoming African film Festival, as well as Korean film Festival noise. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference Podcast, tomato Meter approved reference podcast with your tomato meter approved critics, hosts, KT,

1:33Oti: and Oti.

1:35KT: Read between the media lines or lies and tap into liberating occupied lands. And sweet, smart men growing a conscience. Mm, I couldn't even say it because in what world, what a fictional world do you get men growing a conscience, have the grown love you deserve with James Gunn's Superman this week? Woo woo.

2:07Oti: How much fun did you have with that?

2:09KT: You know, when they say leave room for Jesus? Mm. Um, when, when Clark Kent, Superman, and Lois Lane were doing their up in the air kiss, I was in between, if you, if you squint a little bit. They had to edit me out. Wow. I am so excited. How are you feeling, Oti?

2:28Oti: Good. I've been watching to talk about this for a while now.

2:31KT: Yeah. Right. We've, we're finally up to the schedule, um, friends and lovers, so we are allocating a full review. Um, how, how far are your underpants to your nipples, Oti?

2:45Oti: Oof. All the way up.

2:47KT: Hopefully Christopher Reeve and not fucking Dean. Fucking Cain. Fuck yeah.

2:52Oti: Ice agent Dean Cain. Fuck. Yeah. He's gotta get

2:55KT: his nut, but he is nuts. About to fall off.

2:58Oti: Yeah.

2:59KT: Hey, we're getting political because Superman gets political now. Um, all right. Uh, well, it will be a full review, so you're going to get the bing bow, the, the one two punch, friends and lovers. So, um, we're gonna do our pull quotes, which are non-spoiler, but for now, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.

3:20Oti: James Gunn delivers a Superman unafraid to grapple with global issues, painting an unmistakable allegory. It's bold, resonant, and powered by a truly terrific co-star. Gotta got a love our Edi there. Mm-hmm.

3:42KT: Your Kenyan brother? Mm-hmm. Edi. Wow. That French Olympics was something. Hey,

3:51Oti: Uhhuh,

3:52KT: shout us to your Reagan. Yeah. Where? Where? With James Gunn, not the Reagan.

3:57Oti: Yeah. Okay.

3:59KT: James Gunn has the rare ability to go beyond live action storytelling rules and embrace the playfulness, usually utilized in animation while being aware of the world around us. Mm. Friends and lovers. If Hank, insert last name from King of the Hill and Superman, Keith Corenswet. Can be sweet and smart and progressive in this. Yes.

4:30Oti: No, it's a good comparison. No, but

4:32KT: I I, if they can grow from what you would expect, well-meaning in this case, white people to, to feel and think, then everyone needs to step their proverbial political pussy up. Mm. Is what I'm saying. Don't you think it's interesting in the, in both of our pull quotes, we mentioned James Gunn.

4:54Oti: Uh, it's him, isn't it? It's a James

4:55KT: Gunn world.

4:56Oti: Mm-hmm.

4:58KT: Right. Um, so we're going to get into the themes, friends and lovers, which is what we do around her. We take Kylie or kind around her, um, unless you're a fucking ice agent. Uh, but we're going to get into themes. My first theme is literally James Gunn, Gunns and Roses. It's your world, baby. Mm. So. I, I guess just to give like a little bit of a tasting, we have done a Peacemaker episode, have we not? We have. So I think that is the first, no, we also did Creature Commandos in our combined reviews, in our reference Max. Um, but I, I guess in general, I wasn't really checking for James Gunn when it came to Guardians of the Galaxy, but I think that's just the Chris Pratts of it all. Mm-hmm. Um. And I also think the rating didn't afford for, like I, I think James Gunn really, he's like Ian McShane, right? Remember there was that Ian McShane show that was PG and it was very clearly not for his branding or for the audience that would wanna watch Ian McShane you flame in cucumbers like that you don't get to utilize, you don't get to go full Gunn. In, I guess a, a PG sort of rated format, and I feel like it was achieved here. Um, I love James Gunn. I got a lot of time for James Gunn Suicide Squad. Had actually, we had, we did a, we did a Suicide Squad review episode too.

6:32Oti: We've done a lot of James.

6:33KT: Actually, right. Um, you call us a Nazi. Friends and lovers 'cause we got ourselves a gun.

6:41Oti: Oh wow.

6:44KT: We say you Shan One more time. That's a John Wick reference. Uh, friends and lovers, if you didn't know part of the soundtrack, uh, back to James Gunn. How are you feeling? Where are you feeling? I'm just like, sir, take my coins. Have it all. We went to the media screening. We also paid to go and watch it, um, ourselves.

7:08Oti: We did, um, just because we had a lot of, there was a bit of distractions when we went to watch it, um, on the screening. Um, but the themes that were being talked about that I thought was really cool, something that I'd never really experienced. It's a brand like Superman before. So it, it, it just warranted a second watch properly. Um, but yeah, we've been having fun with James Gunn. I think Creature Commandos is still one of my favorites for him,

7:39KT: I think. I think it's my best Gunn.

7:40Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Has to be right up there.

7:44KT: Oh, absolutely. Um, and friends and lovers go and watch Creature Commandos if you haven't watched Creature Commandos, but like to make us care about that Weasily fucking motherfucker that looked like Krieger from Archer made him. Um, yeah, absolutely love. And that that was also very political. The music was very fun, um, in Creature Commandos as well. But we love James Gunn. We got a lot of time for James Gunn. Um, so let's move into Superman, the actual character of Superman, and also I want to touch on the origin story. Um, but before we do that, Oti, you don't need to give us a full reaction, but I just wanted to put it here on this podcast. I am fucking sick. I, I'm just sick of audiences, social media audiences, whoever it is. Audiences, because can you believe on the press run, James Gunn was a part of it and people were like, Ew, why are you there? We only wanna see Corenswet and Brosnahan.

8:43Oti: Really?

8:43KT: Seriously? They're like, Ew. Why is he always making himself a part of the press?

8:51Oti: It's just baby family. What do you want?

8:53KT: He needs to go Magneto on you bitches, essentially. Mm-hmm. We're also watching X-Men '97, Friends and Lovers. Uh, so let's talk about Superman. Uh, how do you feel about him as a character?

9:07Oti: Not that I was trepidacious, but I thought I, I enjoyed Cavill's version as well, so, you know, we, we got the brooding, you know, so I, I was, I didn't know what to expect with this. I stayed away from trailers. Anything that might spoil it a bit. I know we did like the sneaky media pick whatever trailer thing, which we saw. Which we saw, um, Edi in Uhhuh, but wow. I, I just, he, he, he, he was really good in this. He, he portrayed Superman in a way that felt that you could connect to him. You could feel his struggle. You could feel that he wants to save every little thing. And the fact that he went outta the way for him to show him do that as well.

9:51KT: Yeah.

9:51Oti: Felt. Yeah, that's the Superman US growing up that were envisioning and wanted to see all the fucking time.

9:59KT: Interesting. I always thought Superman was a boring character because it was too perfect. Mm-hmm. You know, whenever I mentioned Superman, I also mentioned Goku and I also mentioned Jesus. Usually Oti will talk about racist ass Mel Gibson. Um, but it's. Yeah. The, the aside from the fact that it makes the story boring because he is too perfect. It also is disingenuous to the human experience. And I know Superman isn't human, but he lives amongst us, right? Mm-hmm. So he, it, it kind of becomes a, okay, you're cool. Hey, how about your sum holder? You don't wanna give any, any love to your, uh, Smallville.

10:50Oti: It feels good, but But it's different, right? I can't compare potatoes to tomatoes.

10:58KT: Okay. Why? 'cause it's television. Yeah. Oh, okay. Fair. Um, Superman is a character, didn't interest me at all. Um, I didn't necessarily care for his character. And what I would also say is I was surprised that I enjoyed. Not this film because it's James Gunn. I would've enjoyed it, I'm pretty sure. But that I was intrigued by the character of Superman because he was so, he was very introspective. He was like Mr. Morale himself, like he was interrogating who he is and the harm that he causes, even in the good that he tries to do.

11:39Oti: You didn't feel like he was being a bit too ta.

11:43KT: Okay. Anime baby. Um, no, I, I think we'll come to Lex Luthor in a second, but I think the way that the world was set, it was a very interesting dynamic to get into, whether it was him fighting himself, him trying to have a grown ass relationship with Lois. Um, but I, I thought it was a very, it set up for a very interesting sort of dynamic because. Again, friends and lovers, find yourself podcasters that can reference King of the Hill and Superman together. But you know, you, you have Hank and you think he's cool, you have Superman and you think he's cool. And you know, for the most part, that's kind of how I see most people. Like, I don't expect people to give a fuck about other people, right? I don't expect people to overextend. Actually follow through with what they mean from a principles point of view. And for Superman, everything was pretty cool. I, um. I know people like in defense of I guess conservative people, they'll be like, what are you talking about? Superman was always an immigrant, but to me he was just a white man. Like I didn't, no, but you know what I mean? Like, and immigrants can be white. Let's don't come and fight me. And if you are, you're listening to the wrong podcast. Um, but I didn't see him having. The immigrants struggle, if you know what I mean. So I, I, I think it was a noble, uh, defense of the yucky people that are saying very yucky things about, uh, you know, the non-white migrants. But I didn't, that wasn't necessarily, I didn't think he was holding the banner, you know, for immigrants. But I also really appreciated in this film that he actually cared. He cared enough to. Realize the damage that he might do to himself, right? Mm-hmm. And he might do to others, or he is very present, might pose on others. You know, there's even a moment in the film where he is like, you know, we, we will talk about the scene with him and Lois, but he's like, I just wanna fucking, he doesn't say fucking, I just wanna help people. Right. All these political lines, all of these political lies, like, I'm just here and I wanna do good and I wanna help people. What that means in the context of geopolitical shit, obviously will come to, but I didn't expect that Superman would have a fragmented dimension to his understanding of morality. You know how you meet people and they've never been through shit in their life.

14:19Oti: Mm.

14:21KT: Like ko, you know what I mean? So it was nice to feel that.

14:24Oti: It's weird because I, growing up, I'd say I'd sort of connect more with Superman than Batman, because with Batman you get a A, 'cause it was rich billion, a fucking playboy that is still struggling to cope with the loss of their parents. Other than that months fine, you know? We get Superman who's struggling to find how he belongs, what was

14:49KT: he's struggling with? He doesn't, he,

14:51Oti: he's struggling to, to belong, to find his space, to find his people,

14:56KT: you know, who was struggling.

14:58Oti: Mm-hmm.

14:59KT: A is the alligator. Exactly. Exactly. You're some fucking hot white man. You're supposed to talk, leave. Leave at BC alone, man. No, but I'm saying. I'm saying your fucking Corenswet. Keith Sweat. He can just walk out into the street. No one's going. Stop. Oh, do you think those, those little black and brown kids are saying, I a man, I look a man? No, this ain't get away from me because man's evil, what he want. Or even, even, um, our, our victor guy, the, the, the one that plays the, the elements. Mm. Right. He is fucking not great to look at. Do you think he didn't struggle through life? Come on now. You've fallen for the, for the, uh, I'm

15:57Oti: not, I'm not, I'm not trying to compare people. You're falling for the super. You put, you put, you put Superman, Batman there that a lot of people will gravitate towards Superman, or at least I hope

16:12KT: I, mm. I was a vogue 'cause if I touch it. Ah, um, let's talk about the origin story. Uh, we don't need to necessarily speak to the reactions 'cause we've, we've noted that it is very childish the way that a lot of people and critics are also reacting to it. I loved it. I loved it too. How many times?

16:43Oti: How many times?

16:45KT: How many times do you wanna fucking see it?

16:47Oti: Yeah, we've been watching it since. If you're in your, most of the reviews are in the fucking forties. Yeah. How many times do you wanna watch that shit? Yeah. Grow up, but like literally, oh, actually I felt disconnected because I didn't understand his motivation. I didn't understand how he came to be fam.

17:07KT: You've been at the Sunday School of Superman for too long. You know what

17:10Oti: he reminded me of? Yeah. Your qualms with Passion of the Christ.

17:13KT: Exactly.

17:14Oti: Where did Jesus come from? Fam? There's been a Bible all your life. Oh, clearly. Oh, I dunno. I dunno about latter days or whatever the bloody hell it's called. But you know,

17:29KT: whatever South Park say whatever South Park say

17:32Oti: it was there. It's been there. How many times do you wanna see the, the same iteration. It's boring. It's been done. I love the fact that we get to see him once he is, he's dealing with all this angst. We don't need to see him being shipped down and all of that. Okay. But

17:47KT: my critic lens has to pull you up on that because in Passion of the Christ, they actually started off with him as a Bebe. So it's the character emotional progression. This one, we start off of him as a grown man.

18:00Oti: No, but he still had issues with Passion of the Cross that don't, they don't, they don't go deep enough into. Jesus the man while he was, you know, where you are. Like, uh, actually I wanted to see Jesus struggle with his, I don't know.

18:16KT: What would Superman do? Would he do what you are doing and mansplain my critiques to me?

18:22Oti: Yeah. He would.

18:24KT: Wow. Huh?

18:26Oti: Just like the copy with I I'm, no, you're giving me Dean Cain,

18:29KT: you're giving me Dean Cain Superman right now. Um, but, but going to this. How many fucking times, how many fucking times do you wanna see an origin story of Superman? We get it. We get it, we get it, we get it. Grow the fuck up. Mature, right? You won you, there's literally you, you've tapped out to level a hundred on a level one enemy. You get it right? You don't need to. So what I appreciated is not only did we get. A progression of the origin story, but he fucking grew up, right? Mm. And I think that's a good lesson. Not very ate, but it's a very good lesson for all of us friends and lovers that our origin stories can start again and we can learn, and we can embrace and we can love more. How about that?

19:25Oti: In fact, like if, if, if we do what to do, another Batman and I see an alley scene with fucking pearls running down the street. I, I'd roll my eyes so hard.

19:36KT: Yeah,

19:37Oti: I I it's been down. We know it. If you don't know it, go watch it. Go back and watch.

19:42KT: But okay, so, so the thing I would say of you talking about Passion in the Christ in this, this is an entry level. Like you already know who Superman is. Right. This is, um, like an update, right? It's like, uh, uh, like that chapter of Boyhood or that Ethan Hawke's and that annoying yucky lady that said that yucky thing in the French, uh, film. I'm not even gonna mention it. You can go and check that Friends and Lovers. Um, but it's, it's a continuation because there should be a continuation. You know, you can't be fucking Drake and rapping the same shit if, and you're 39, 40 years old, right. At some point your art needs to progress. At some point your life progresses. If you're stuck in the same and you are the old unc in the club, then there's a problem.

20:35Oti: It's sad when you don't realize you're the unc, you know? And, and, and that's the thing. We, we need to be able to accept a creator's viewpoint of, okay. This is the degree they went and not feel as if you are entitled to a certain degree of this is how it's always been done. So do this. Yeah. Otherwise, you know, I, I, I don't vibe with that.

21:00KT: Who, who would believe that I'm more liberal than you Aret. 'cause I don't think people have to accept that. But go and watch the other ones. Don't try and change this into. Don't contort this back to a regression of who you are. A um, let's move into the DC world just very quickly. Um, you talked about enjoying, I guess that Grier sort of version, um, of DC I'm excited, you know mm-hmm. James Gunn with his executive position. Um, I think we're in for a very good time. We already love Peacemaker. As well. Um, do you have any thoughts that you wanna share on DC before we move on to the next thing? We enjoyed

21:43Oti: it. Uh, I think when the share, when we watched, what was it, Suicide Squad, where we were like, oh my God, we've been missing this. We just need something that has fun with stuff.

21:54KT: Also, I didn't realize, I knew the credits said Nathan Fillion, but I thought that was Dastmalchian.

22:01Oti: I thought they just like put makeups on him. Uh, Late Night with the Devil, man. Good movie. So

22:08KT: good. Mm, so great. Um, so let's move into the themes of the film. I wanna talk about social political commentary, Palestine slash genocide. Uh, I'm not even gonna put a spoiler warning there. I would like to hear your thoughts on that. I think for the both of us, we didn't expect. Well, Superman in general, we didn't expect his character to even look beyond. I want to do good. That's all I want to do. Um, it really kind of tapped into, you know, whether you, you draw it to the real world. James Gunn did say that he wasn't necessarily like Palestine and Israel wasn't necessarily at the forefront of his mind when he was making the film. Uh, but we can talk about it. Maybe even Russia and Ukraine going on here. I would say, you know, Oti, you might not believe it, but even the conversation that I had with you, it changed my mind. Mm-hmm. Uh, I feel like the messaging wasn't enough, but I'm very radical in that way, I suppose. Like I felt like. It could have been done more. And then you had to remind me, not only is this a big studio film, it's also Superman, the golden boy that has never, ever been tainted by, I guess, keeping his feet on the ground. So in that sense, I've, I've thought more about it and I have appreciated the commentary.

23:48Oti: Yeah. And you've got to see that. I don't think it gets done. If it's not James Gunn who has a bit of cachet,

23:59KT: you know what's good, but also bad that you need these creators like Ryan Cooglers, Jordan Peeles for them to be able to make what they want the way that they want.

24:10Oti: Yeah. Yeah. You've gotta build out cachet and the fact that he used it because he know a lot. He, you, you can, you know that. The amount of fights that was had to be put.

24:23KT: Yeah. To

24:23Oti: even have a semblance of that in the movie. Yeah. Had to be wild. So you know what? I did not even expect anything like that, uh, from the talks or. Prior to watching the movie, it was all about him being a migrant. I was like, oh, cool man. Jesus. But Jesus migrant he was, wasn't he? But

24:48KT: well as, as, uh, Denzel's, Malcolm X would say Jesus was born in the land of the people of color.

24:55Oti: Yeah. But when, when you get to see how it's been done. You, you could, you could tell that the, either there was a law that was left out that was chopped up to a level where this felt acceptable or possible enough that people might not even try and connect the shit.

25:17KT: Yeah.

25:17Oti: So, you know what I, I, I loved it. I can't fault it one bit for trying to do that,

25:24KT: but were you pleasantly surprised that it was there?

25:27Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Surprised for sure.

25:31KT: Right? Yeah. It was nice to see though. Mm. Uh but, you know, free Palestine friends and lovers, and we're done with, we're done with the empty gestures. You can't say you recognize Palestine and still be arming and shaking hands and kumbayaing with Israel. Let's move on. Uh, morality, which I guess is tethered. Um, Superman going introspective. Uh, I want to reference the scene with Lois and Superman. It's interesting, in the IMDB, he's credited as Superman, not slash Clark Kent. Um, I forgot. I think it's either, it's somewhere between eight and 12 minutes. The dialogue, this scene where they have the dialogue. Um, I recall a tweet of someone watching Superman and they said. Whoever wrote this must have gone through a divorce and they came out of the cinema and they're like, oh, James Gunn, I just looked it up. I'm so sorry. But thank you for writing that scene because I guess she felt very seen, um, in that particular moment of the film. But, um, this is going back to that grown sort of relationships, uh, that we were referencing earlier. I really liked it. I really love that Lois wasn't swooning. He is very swoon worthy. Obviously he's very punk rock, obviously. Um, but I love that not only was she her own person, but she was, she wasn't at that level of like, I guess being courted. Mm-hmm. She's established, she's got a career. Let's not, let's not pretend she, she tickled her way into that interview, but it's okay. She got the access. Um, but I really appreciated that. Uh, but specifically what I want to talk about in regards to morality is, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this. We don't have to go too deep if you don't want to, but there was a moment where Lois was interrogating Superman and I had qualm with it. I don't have qualm with the way it was written. I don't have qualm with the way it was performed, but I have a qualm with this school of thought. Because Lois was talking about you go in there, you disrupt the geopolitical ties, and then someone else is just going to move in. Again, that frustrated me because whether you want to tie it to real world or we just keep it inside of, you know, the, the Superman world in this film. That's a shitty way to say people should keep suffering because you are too scared to dismantle the system.

28:17Oti: It's, um, speaking on what's happening all over the world. Mm-hmm. Um, when those genocide happening in Rwanda. People are like, oh, we can't do anything. Oh, we need to do A, B, C. We need to cross all the boxes and check all the ticks. Oh, we need to get UN outta there.

28:33KT: And then UN is always the first to flee anyway.

28:36Oti: So, you know, you, you, you can do all that bullshit, but end of the day, people are suffering. People are dying. You know, even now you don't have to look back in nineties. Nineties, you know, it's, it's happening all over the world where we're like. Oh, we've gotta do, do pro. We've gotta have this old geopolitical. We need to make sure that, oh, America agrees with the weaponization we make, otherwise we can't move a finger.

29:03KT: But it's so true because the Western powers were the ones that were, were like propping up particular ethnic groups, and you can apply that not just in Rwanda, but all around the world. So you can't sit back passively because a lot of Western powers, especially the US, were actively a part of that descent.

29:21Oti: Yeah. Oh. Or even if you wanna be truth truthful, it's, most of them are the ones that are causing this fucking chaos all over the world. So for them to feel as if they've gotta sit back and follow some fucking dew, play some fucking mind games or some political games, because I don't know, to appease everybody, right?

29:45KT: Well, it's not everybody.

29:47Oti: Yeah,

29:47KT: it's the same. Everybody. When they say freedom for all, they don't mean freedom. Well, I guess, I guess that's how you would see. If it's freedom for Superman, then maybe he's on the other side, friends and love, but I thought that was really interesting. And again, you know, I, I said How to Train Your Dragon is a kid's film. This isn't a kid's film, but I guess morality wise, I'm not necessarily tethering it to, uh, on the ground, uh, you know, documentary in a war zone. But because it allowed itself that extra sort of platform, again, I don't think, I don't think this was a failing on James Gunn writing. I don't think this was a failing, um, on Brosnahan acting. I actually liked that they showed that viewpoint. But you know, motherfuckers I think like this don't realize that they're the ones thinking like that. Mm-hmm. You're getting in the way of the revolution. Get the fuck out of the way. Yeah. Um, also in regards to morality to something a bit lighter, I wanna talk about Lex Luthor, uh, friends and lovers. We love Nicholas Hoult. One of our first pride months, either Rafiki was first, or A Single Man was first. Um, I can't recall another time. We've covered Nicholas Hoult on the podcast, friends and Lovers. Um, I think he's a great actor. I don't necessarily feel moved by him. He's kind of like, you know, people that are like really good singers, but you don't, you don't tap into the raw emotion. You are not thinking about better days or wish you had better days. He's kind of like that for me. Like I think he's cool. He definitely can act. Um, oh, he was beast. In the X-Men. Um, but I guess what I would say about Lex Luthor's character is I think, I think I need to stop saying, I think he's cool, but he is cool. But it felt like theater to me. It felt like he was just reciting lines that sounded good, or maybe in a compliment. I don't see him as a shriveling incel that is so jealous of Superman. Right. Did you buy his performance?

32:05Oti: I, I bought that. He was jealous of that tension. Superman was getting.

32:09KT: Maybe he is not ugly enough then because, and again, the only way I can critique is by complimenting him. Like, I just don't believe he has that much of a struggle to Effie altis himself. You understand?

32:23Oti: I get you. Uh, uh, some It did feel a bit over perform. In aspects, but when it comes to the motivation of why he was doing it, I sort of bought into it. Mm. It didn't feel as if, oh, I needed to be sold into the Lex looseness of it, rather than him sort of stretching. It felt a little bit like we were watching a play. But that's what I'm saying.

32:53KT: Uh, like Brian Cox's, like he, he does that in Succession, but it makes sense and he grounds it. There's something about Nicholas Hoult in this Superman film in particular where it just feels like a soliloquy like most of the time. And you know, while we're thinking about this as well. It doesn't even need to be someone that feels incel and has never touched a breast before. Like Martin Scorsese before you did The Aviator. Go and check that out. For how

33:25Oti: many Murs do you got?

33:28KT: It's the olas. You're looking for routine. That's where the high value is. Um, but I don't know. There was, there was just something about his performance I just couldn't jive with. But Al Klaus. From Umbrella Academy. It doesn't necessarily need to be someone that wants to be him. It can be someone that just wants to cause chaos. And I think of our Klaus from Umbrella Academy. If you mean he just wants to fuck shit up for the sake of fucking shit up, then I think Klaus from Umbrella Academy would've done that really well.

34:02Oti: I can't see that. I think to me, I think he's, he, he's a good Lex Luthor. Aspects where it felt it was a bit too just overperformed that aside, his motivation and his character within this world made sense. I want to see what the next chapter is for him in this. Mm-hmm. Because it, it still has legs, yeah. By the time we reached towards the end of the movie, he becomes, it, it, I'm sold more on him rather than towards the middle where it felt a bit, oh, he's just now, you know, acting.

34:46KT: Yeah. You

34:47Oti: know? Did he not grow in the, he did not grow in the role with you, for you at least?

34:53KT: No. No, because, so

34:54Oti: by the end of it, you didn't feel as if. Oh, we've got Lex here.

34:58KT: No, and but also if I to critique is to compliment Nicholas Hoult. Um, I, I think the way that the, because the story was more mature because Superman was Mr. Morale himself and he was interrogating his own morality. It kind of softened the blow of a Lex Luthor, because Lex Luthor is supposed to be. Albeit ugly, but he's supposed to be an ugly mirror to Superman because some of what Lex Luthor is saying actually resonates with Superman. And he is like, ah, shit. Yeah, he is kind of, he is kind of looking into my soul right now. You know what I mean? So I, I love the dynamic that we're a bit more mature and we get Superman that's actually reflecting on his own actions and he is becoming a bit more conscious, conscious. But that also means it leaves little room for Lex Luthor to go full evil.

35:55Oti: Yeah,

35:55KT: right. Um, but I guess what I would say for me, Nicholas Hoult is someone that I feel like I would see at my little independent cinema. And, and perhaps we would have a quick conversation about a sad indie film we just watched. Like that's, I think that's the perfect role for Nicholas Hoult. Um, but I don't think he would want to have an exchange with me. But I don't know, again, it isn't just his performance. I think it's a way that the, and that's a compliment because this story is a bit more, um, shapely. If you're nasty, it's a bit more well-rounded and curvy, um, than other superhero movies, especially, uh, Superman ones you would have, right? Mm-hmm. Let's talk about some other characters feel to feel, feel free to throw any out there. I know we're gonna talk about Mr. Terrific.

36:51Oti: Yeah. Oh man, I'm a big fan of Edi Gathegi. It's not because he's Kenyan, but that doesn't hurt. He's, well, what's his

36:58KT: character's name?

37:01Oti: Mr. Terrific. And he's that in more ways than just, you know, name alone. He embodies that character in such a way. He brings humor to the character. he. He makes it feel cool. Yeah. You know, and, and he has this aura with him that, I dunno, he just bounces off well with Lois Lane as well. Mm-hmm. He made this movie fun.

37:29KT: He, he made the movie,

37:30Oti: you know, that they, sorry, sorry.

37:32KT: Corenswet and Brosnahan and Hoult.

37:35Oti: The comic relief aspect of it, I think mostly came from him.

37:39KT: Straight man. Yeah.

37:40Oti: Uh, but wow. He is, he is amazing. Um,

37:44KT: with his little circles. With his little spheres.

37:47Oti: Yeah. I, I'm not sure why in the top cast, he's not in the fast page maybe. It's all,

37:51KT: I saw you clicking on all cars and scrolling all the way down. Where's my man's? Yeah, he's not, he's not there.

37:59Oti: Maybe it's an appearance. Um, but yeah,

38:01KT: no, he had, and you know what? He had more of a role in the film than I thought he would, manuals and everything. But that's credit to James Gunn because James Gunn, same as Krypto, Krypto, Mr. Terrific. Were the highlights for me.

38:15Oti: Oh yeah. We need a Mr. Terrific. Something.

38:18KT: But James Gunn makes you care about side characters. Mm. He doesn't, um, like James Gunn is a live action Miyazaki. You know how Miyazaki will, uh, go out of his way to make sure that even the leaves in the background are drawn individually. That's what James Gunn does with character.

38:39Oti: They're not just a vehicle to make a Superman. Good to prop him up.

38:42KT: Good

38:43Oti: to make Lois fall in love with whatever, like it's are fully fledged characters.

38:48KT: Well, he signed the deal because I would also, you know, when you see the camera move to somewhere else, I would like to know what Mr. Terrific is up to.

38:55Oti: Yeah. You know, even if you know it's been years since Twilight finished, but if we could also get a spinoff of.

39:03KT: Laurent. Yeah, Laurent and Loophole.

39:10Oti: Get a Laurent and um, Mr. Terrific. Back to back.

39:14KT: I love that. Yeah,

39:15Oti: why

39:15KT: not? We're an Edi Gathegi podcast first.

39:18Oti: Exactly.

39:19KT: Friends and lovers. Um, love Krypto. He made an appearance, a very short cameo in the South Park episode recently. Um, but yes, oh, absolutely loved it. Um, one of the things I was, uh, thinking and also feeling when we were watching it the first time, as well as the second time is. He loves his dog. And this is also for people that love dogs. And I thought how nice it would be, you know, e eventually, you know, when the dog passes away. This is a nice like way to remember. Yeah, it's like you've got Hachi, you've got Marley & Me, and now you've got Superman. Oh, and also John Wick as well if you're feeling mad. Um. Yeah, but I really, I really enjoyed Krypto. Um, I didn't realize, like I knew there was a white Green Lantern because of Ryan Reynolds and I knew there was a black Green Lantern just because of every other iteration I've seen. Don't worry about my, uh, incognito search as friends and lovers. Um, but I didn't realize that there was so ma like so many different

40:33Oti: Yeah. Yeah, they're different. Fillion. He, he's so good in this.

40:38KT: Yeah.

40:39Oti: I don't think I've ever seen him miss a step. You know? Uh, I might make a Fillion fan club as well.

40:48KT: Okay. That, that much,

40:50Oti: not just for this role. He's, been consistent, throughout

40:55KT: You can be the fan club unless the fan club come and find you a team. Mm-hmm. Okay. It was cool. Do you have any other notes for the film?

41:03Oti: Uh, not particularly. No.

41:07KT: Okay. Well, um, before we wrap up, I just wanted to mention something that I thought was going to be something, but it didn't really end up being anything in the film. I'm talking about that. Uh, the clip of Superman's mom and dad talking about go to earth, um, what do they say? Plant your, plant your seed, get some wives, um, and populate the lands or, or whatever they were saying, right? Mm. I wanna get your thoughts on this. I took this as misinformation. I took this as them distorting. The clip, but then they, they were like, no, even you are Mr. Terrific. He was like, no, this is the real clip. And I was like, Hmm. Interesting. Very curious. Um, I guess the first question is, do you feel like that was, uh, modified in any way? Um, and also did you feel like that could have been a potential misinformation to, I guess, garner? Um, I, I guess anger from the public.

42:16Oti: I don't think it was. I think their parents are like, bro, our planet is dying. God dominate out there. There's a planet with weaklings. Stupid people go there, be their ruler. Makes sense. But the, the interesting is thing now is. Uh, he was brought up by good parents and, you know, the people, he's always been yearning for re and all that, when in essence, his Martha has always been there.

42:50KT: Okay. That's, you know, but No, but that's the cards

42:52Oti: that you actually have, you know, you know, you know those, um, I, I see this everywhere in fucking. T-shirts. It's the, it's the stepfather. I'm the, I'm the stepfather, the stepped up. What is that?

43:08KT: How many of your children given you that o Is that the, is that the wine or clock for men?

43:22Oti: That essentially was that in the movie where it's like, you know what? All these years you've been hammering and cling about the parents that you lost, that you didn't get to know when, uh, the parents here on Earth have been everything for you.

43:39KT: Stepped up already. Yeah, they've

43:41Oti: been stepping up.

43:41KT: Step Up the Parenthood sequel. Um, you know what, you know what? And, and you know, we, we are calling down friends and lovers, so I won't get too, but that offers a very interesting angle. Because Sure. Superman was an immigrant. Sure. I think he was more of an intelligent life force. But anyway, okay, so Superman is an immigrant to Earth, but he also is from a peoples that have power, but he still chooses to stand beside. And stand up in solidarity of oppressed nations. Isn't that interesting? Mm-hmm. Read between the media lines and lies, friends and lovers, because it's right there. Oh, who can I get a Hallelujah, Oti?

44:43Oti: Hallelu.

44:47KT: You sounded like when, uh, they swapped the lyrics for Lumina in your body in the Catholic Church. Um, thank you so much, friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. I always love when we get into these conversations, who knew it would be in a Superman film.

45:07Oti: Mm.

45:09KT: We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Reference, Oti.

45:13Oti: I'm gonna stick with the Gunn universe and recommend Creature Commandos because it's that good.

45:20KT: Wow. Um, I don't wanna do Passion of the Christ because I feel like he's gonna show up with his South Park face if we see if we reference that movie too many times. Um, I was gonna do Dragon Ball because of Goku.

45:36Oti: Oh, which Dragon Ball? Dragonball Evolution. The movie.

45:40KT: The er. The er. Po check.

45:42Oti: Ah.

45:43KT: Um, you know, I was even going to do The Boys. But I'm actually going to settle. Nicholas Hoult, I know you're very busy with your beautiful family, so I I, I don't believe you've made it this far, especially through our critique of Lex Luthor. But if you ask de Nick Nicholas Hoult, I would like to, um, continue the watch love fest with our friends and lovers to watch A Single Man. My favorite Nicholas Hoult performance.

46:19Oti: A really good movie,

46:21KT: a film, if you're nasty. It

46:23Oti: is. It is a film.

46:25KT: Friends and lovers, if you'd like to fight us on your films, on Twitter, Instagram, sometimes Bluesky. We're @ForYourRefPod.

46:35Oti: Write us an email, uh, hello@fyrpodcast.com.

46:39KT: We're also on hashtag Immigrant Superman podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys for Anime Ref Max next week. See you

46:51Oti: all.

46:51KT: Wow.