Rafiki – Are you looking Atim or her?

Full transcript of Rafiki – Are you looking Atim or her?.

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2:08KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

2:08Oti: And Oti.

2:08KT: And watch out. The sun will rain with this door to door service. Again, we are rounding off and we wanted to participate within pride month. So this week, we are diving into the 2018 Kenyan film Rafiki. So let's dive into the stats.

2:37Oti: So Rafiki is written by the wonderful Wanuri Kahiu. Mhmm. And produced by Steven Markovitz, written by both Wanuri and Jena Cato Bass. To jump onto the cast, have Samantha Mugatsia as Kena, Sheila Munyiva as Ziki, Neville Misati as Blacksta, Nini Wacera as Marci, Jimmy Gathu as John, Charlie Karumi as Wairi. What a cast. What a cast indeed.

3:08KT: What a film. And what a delicious voice. Why do I even do the stats, Oti? I have no idea. Hashtag Oti stats. Well, welcome welcome friends and lovers. If you have found us in this deliciously vibrant pride month, we love you guys. We take kindly to your kind around here. But I guess it's just to say, this is where we move into our first impressions Mhmm. Which is usually where we talk about the film or where we've seen, you know, their particular works before. If you couldn't hear from Oti or his accent,

3:49KT: Oti is Kenyan and he grew up in Kenya. And I'm not, but I do love Oti. Mhmm. So let's dive into the first impressions. This has nothing to do with anything, but Black Panther also came out in 2018. And Ryan Coogler was also there when it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. Rafiki was also the first Kenyan film to be screened at the festival. Yep. Yes. And I guess just just in case we get caught up in discussion and we don't get to cover it, the Kenya Film Classification Board did ban it.

4:25KT: So it premiered in Cannes in May 2018, and it didn't get aired. But luckily, it got lifted. Well, not luckily. There was a lot of work. But the ban got lifted and it was screened for seven days in September 2018 to a sold out cinema.

4:40Oti: Woo hoo.

4:43KT: So let's dive into the first impressions. Oti.

4:46Oti: So I think ever since we had the Rafiki would be coming out and the sort of backlash it had Mhmm. It got me intrigued as to, wow, this I I have to watch this Yeah. Because, you know? Oh, it's a shame.

4:46KT: So the backlash is what got the attention.

4:46Oti: Yeah. The backlash because I hadn't heard about it even it being nominated.

5:06Oti: I just heard of the backlash fast, and I was like, oh, this will be cool to watch. Because even then, we watched it last year. So we didn't even watch it when we were watched it last year. It it was hard for us to come by the movie, but at least once it's it got into this all streaming sites, we're able to get it. Yeah. Mhmm. So I completely fell in love with this movie.

5:32Oti: I have never seen such a movie done, especially in a Kenyan setting. Uh-huh. You know, last year we did A Single Man which tackled sort of the sort of homosexuality in a sort of different way. Grieving and loss. Yes. And then with this, we get to experience what it's like to be, you know, for the queer community in Kenya where you're not really recognized and then how people would react, the stigma that follows, and what it would do to young people who are trying to navigate their way of experiencing love.

6:09Oti: So it had moments where I got tongue tied. I got I I just couldn't breathe at times, and it it just hit me on a different sort of level. And I truly fell in love with it. I think it's one of the best sort of movies I watched last year and rewatching it today just confirmed what I already knew. It's really solid.

6:34KT: And I guess the interesting thing is, you know, it's something that I knew, but, you know, it it falls to, you know, the foreground of your mind. But I forgot that homosexuality is actually still illegal in Kenya. Yep. And because I I guess when you think you think of like Uganda, it's it's not to that level. So I thought it was more like social shame as opposed to actual laws. But I I guess that's I guess that also influences how I feel overall

7:07KT: about the film. But is there is there anything else you wanted to say? Because, you know, all the time, we talk about frame of reference, and we are fully in it. So

7:18Oti: I think the frame of reference was so important in this because I think some of the nuances missed by KT, I got them abound. And the moments where I I was watching and really grasping every moment, every shot, every scene, from the little sounds in the background to the songs. The oh, the scores in this. It has such beautiful songs to display, to portray the sort of emotions going out of the play at the time. And and then the there's other place intentionally devoid of any sort of sound of or some music,

7:57Oti: especially when you have Kena and Ziki sort of making love for the first time. And it was all just raw and

7:57KT: And vulnerable.

7:57Oti: And very vulnerable. And I felt that a lot. Nice.

8:12KT: I and I I guess that's also an important thing as well. The thrilling thing about cinema is you don't have to have lived the exact life of the protagonist or any of the characters inside of a film to be able to resonate in some sort of way. The frame of reference definitely means a lot and on a lighter sort of note, Oti talks a lot about black tax but I think there was some whopping Kenyan tax.

8:43Oti: No taxes in this. This movie did not deserve any sort of taxation in as much as I wanted to give it. I rated it quite highly.

8:43KT: Oh, so this is an objective Kenyan review.

8:43Oti: This is quite an objective, unbiased review.

8:58KT: Coming live out of two five four. Oh, but this film was so proudly Kenyan. I guess just coming to my sort of impressions, you know, through way of love and through an enthralling relationship with Oti, I've had the pleasure of being in Kenya many times. But that is not to further extend to understanding the LGBT community in Kenya. Yep. So even even that as a culture or even that, you know, as a group, that is something that I don't understand. What I also wanna say is that film and the arts can fucking change culture.

9:41KT: They can. And art is culture. And, you know, we've watched this twice now. And I just wanna make it very clear that what this film has done and what this film will continue to do in the cinematic landscape of world history of queer cinema is something that it cannot be watered down in any aspect.

10:07Oti: No, it can't.

10:10KT: And I and it was interesting. And I think it's also because of the climate now and the heaviness of the pandemic and the Black Lives Matter movement. But I feel I felt a lot watching this. And I felt a lot more than I felt the first time that I watched Rafiki. And I think it is to do with the climate and what's going on. But I guess what I wanted to say from the outset is I fucking love this film. I love what it has done. I love what it stands for. I love Wanuri.

10:45KT: I love that she she stand very firm in the fact that she didn't want to change the film in any way. An example of the the Kenyan film classification board wanting it to have, like, a remorseful sort of ending, like being apologetic about being queer in any way. And she chose not to do that and she chose to take them to court. And that is so important.

11:11KT: And it also really upsets me that, you know, there are so many accolades. And the fact that this got given like, this got screened in Cannes as the first Kenyan film. And it was passed on being nominated for the foreign language film category for the Oscars. I I I it just upsets me. I don't think it's fair. You know, it's it's Kenyan. It's for Kenyan cinema.

11:36KT: But, you know, the powers that be just didn't want it to happen. But they would obviously revel in the successes that it had. And there's a part of me that feels really upset over that. And but at the same time, I don't think this movie was perfect. So just remember how much you love KT as we continue this discussion. I under I understand fully how important this was. And even even at the end of the film, looking at the credits, how many how many people were involved in the making of this film?

12:11KT: That is a message alone to the changing landscape in Kenya and, you know, traditional or religious sort of review attitudes towards the LGBT community.

12:23Oti: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think one of the many things that the movie does well is sort of portray a lot of things that Kenyans don't really or Africans don't really want to come to terms with and they'd rather just pretend as if it's not happening Yeah. Rather than face the facts that people are allowed to love whoever they want to love. Yeah. And it's it's not it's it's their fundamental sort of right as human beings. So to stifle that sort of right for them is quite inhuman. And

12:57Oti: this movie tackles that, I think. One of the ways that Wanuri portrays the story, you'd fall in love with Kena and and Ziki. And especially how Ziki was so hard. You could not look away. Oh, she was so vibrant. So so vibrant. Mhmm. So vibrant. And I don't know. I don't know what I'm mumbling. We should just head into the moves today. Just continue the podcast.

13:28KT: There are quite a couple of themes that are covered within this film and, we'll obviously be able to draw in a lot of the characters as we continue that discussion. Obviously, we are going to first tackle, sexuality and how it was portrayed in the film. Feel free to add any context Oti if you feel you need to. I really appreciated the dynamics between Kena and Ziki. Like you were mentioning earlier, Ziki was an effervescent force. And she really had this vivaciousness for life. And as a contrast, have Kena as a introverted tomboy. And

14:13KT: she's also coming to grips of something that she's probably known her own life. But cultural sort of expectations, religious sort of expectations get in the way of that. And it's sad. And also at the same time, know, when Wanuri was talking about, you know, so many films, so many countries contributing to queer cinema, but not necessarily having that for Kenya. Yeah. And I think it's it's definitely important to have and it was interesting and it was thrilling to watch these two just try to fucking figure out the world. Oh, yeah.

14:52KT: Like you were mentioning with Ziki earlier, I think just in general, as I like to always say, life is fucking hard. Right? And we need to be our own protectors of our own sense of self and our own happiness. And something that really it really got me upset, you know, later on in the film, and I guess we can talk about it now, we can talk about it later, is when we start to see her glimmer start of like it starts to dull essentially. And what surrounded,

15:27KT: what made her so vibrant started to fade away. And she, to her own detriment, she started to fall into what she thought she should be. And that was one of the most upsetting things that she couldn't even just be her fucking self. Because as we see at the start of the film with Ziki, you know, her her dad's already a congressman. Right? And they seem like they're in an affluent sort of area. You know, obviously there's a certain sort of tendency to follow and conform

16:02KT: to a certain way of life when you're that sort of child being raised by those sort of parents. And she really found her own happiness in the world. Yep. And when she tried to share that, when she tried to entwine that with Kena, it it became such an ugly force, an ugly thing. The even the movie poster of Rafiki is so vibrant and it's nice and it's colorful. But I don't know. Again, maybe just with the climate of what's going on, I felt this film was so heavy and so sad.

16:35Oti: I yes. Inasmuch as it was sad, I think the sort of hope it gives sort of lifts it. Mhmm. Because we have two people trying to figure out the world. Kena just thinks she's gonna be a nurse because, you know, that's what she expects. Well, she didn't even strive for And and until you get sort of this Ziki coming to the picture and telling her, why are you just dreaming about being a nurse? Aim higher. You could be a doctor.

17:04Oti: You know? And and then that's when it starts, and then you you could just see the cogs turning. Yep. So in that respect, like, it it was more seeing the sort of development as as characters for them in this movie, which was really great up until we got to the sort of last quarter of the movie where it got pretty dark quickly. But I think up until then, it was quite cheery in as much as it was also portraying the sort of attitude towards gay people Yeah.

17:39Oti: Which was sort of so casual. It was so casual like every day you could just insult gay person and it's just, oh, normal. This is gay because it's

17:45KT: There were yeah. There were quite a few examples of that as well. Actually, while we're coming to that, unfortunately, couldn't find the specific name of the character, but we do have a male gay character in this movie. And I think even the way he's first introduced into this film, he's being called names. Not necessarily by Blacksta, but he was egging it on by his friend. Is that something that's quite normal? Just a casual sort of slurs? Yeah.

18:20Oti: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's all too common. And I think shining a light on this sort of casual hate and and and abuse is is really important. So we saw him. He had he didn't say anything, but we saw his struggle. He's been through that. Yeah. But he's still in the community because that's all he has. That's all he knows. That's fucking sad. Cause he even goes to church even though people stare at him as well. Yeah. And and you can see in as much as Kena didn't say anything

18:55Oti: but she was still involved in that like she just she didn't really think too much about it. And up until the end where they're sitting together and you could just tell that oh you know because the guy doesn't even say anything then. Yeah which I think was a conscious decision. Yeah but it could feel the moment you could feel the moment of how important that was Now you understand.

19:19Oti: Now you get it. This is what we've this is how we are treated. We are not normal. We're not normal in society based on them. And we just outcasts and that's how it is.

19:32KT: From a film point of view, it's interesting because the first time I watched it, I'm like, okay, cool. Second time I watched Rafiki, I felt very emotional. I I felt very deeply for Kena and also Ziki. But the feelings that I felt for these characters were during those violent, harsh sort of moments. When they had the tender sort of romantic moments, I didn't necessarily feel like it was earned.

19:32Oti: Oh, really?

19:32KT: Yeah. I I I think if if anyone has had any sort of semblance of a two way love,

20:19KT: I think a lot of your feelings can be applied through experiencing these characters. But I think it would have been nice to have a little bit of their happiness. Like, I know they had very pivotal moments where they were happy or, you know and it's not even necessarily a physical I needed to see them physically make love, and I would understand that. I don't I don't feel like that's necessarily the case, but I felt like we needed to live a bit more in them as characters, as opposed to just them

20:53KT: trying to come to grips or trying to come to each other's sense of sexuality. And that's how I felt at least personally. Like I know about love, I know a thing or two about love and I applied that into the movie, but without having that, found it hard to, not necessarily believe the characters, but I found it hard to feel. And again, it's not necessarily in regards to like graphic sex scenes or even, you know, the amount of screen time kissing.

21:31KT: You know, Pride and Prejudice, gotta talk about Colin Firth for a second. But, know, there are love stories where you don't have physical sort of entanglements, but you can still feel the depth and and the longing and the yearning for love.

21:47Oti: I think I I maybe we're just completely different because I felt that. Mhmm. I felt that in in Ziki looking at Kena, the longing staring, how close they were, the lips, the every motion with the hand, the caresses. It just felt it felt so intimate intimate in a way that I have not seen a Kenyan man. Maybe that's from my perspective because it felt really it felt like I was in the room with them, and I I had I wanted to close my eyes because I wanted to give them privacy. And it felt like

22:28KT: Then why are you in the fucking room then?

22:32KT: Get out, you pervert.

22:32Oti: All of my sudden, he fired puffs, so I'm in there. Yes.

22:37KT: You're not in there, Phil.

22:39Oti: So it it just it got me in a different way then because I really did feel the chemistry between Kena and Ziki. In as much as how they felt for each other, it came it was really clear. And I think one of the moments that I really got sort of emotional is because we're introduced to Ziki as a sort of carefree bubbly sort of character who's always happy Yep. Energetic. And then by the end of the movie, we have Kena going to Ziki's bedroom. Mhmm. And Ziki's

23:12Oti: doesn't even look at her. They don't even make eye contact. And you could see it in her eyes. All that happiness, all that joyfulness and the bubbliness had gone. That was so raw for me. And you could see because we were introduced to this character in a sort of different light, then it all just turned bad really quickly. And I I just had feelings. I really did feel that too much. Oh, I I felt I felt those feelings.

23:48KT: And I guess we also glazed over the fact that, you know, they were severely beaten and there was a whole scene preceding that. But just to come back to where you were, you could see the light dimming, you know, didn't shine as brightly. And unfortunately because they had been physically assaulted, obviously it's a scary thing. So that's where she started to fall back into, you know, accepted accepted cultural religious

24:20KT: sort of norms. And it is a dynamic shift because throughout the movie, you have Ziki, which is a she's a carefree spirit. And then you have Kena being a bit more grounded or a bit more conscious of the the the culture and the society that they're in. You know, when when Ziki's parents were getting angry at her about her grades, she's like, yeah, we can move out. Like, you'll become a doctor and we'll live together. And she she had this idealized, you know, sort of notion of how their life would be, you know, romanticizing

24:56KT: how their life be and that's cute and that's lovely. And then you have Kena Kena being like, I don't know if that's going to work. And then when you have them getting physically assaulted, that's where Ziki it was sad. It was very sad to see that shift.

24:56Oti: Yeah. I think it was also more to do with sort of Ziki's naivety

25:15Oti: and her unalterated sort of view of the world.

25:19KT: She was just she was just she's just more progressive. Right? She's just born ahead of

25:19Oti: Not really even progressive. Just

25:26Oti: I'd say just naive. Naive to the fact that people do look people do care about this shit. People do look out for this shit. And they were in church and she touched Kena's hand, and they were trying to hold hands or whatever. Uh-huh. And then Kena got really angry. She walked out. She said, you can't do that. Everyone's there. Everyone's watching. Yeah. Because people are looking. People are watching. And they're gossiping. People are gossiping. Mhmm. You know? So from her perspective, she's all this I think it's more

26:01Oti: sheltered lifestyle where she's not really in tune to what society is at that level.

26:06KT: Well, I guess she also I guess she also, like you said, in regards to being sheltered or being like affluent, I guess she just didn't understand the sort of repercussions and how real and how hurtful physically and emotionally they could be. But if Kenya was a bit further more progressive, she wouldn't have had a problem. And hopefully

26:06Oti: Explain that. Had a problem how?

26:06KT: Like, if it wasn't illegal in Kenya and she could live freely, then it wouldn't be naivety.

26:41KT: Yeah. So I agree that, yes, she was naive, but but there's a little tiny KT part of me that does feel love where, you know, if she was in a different country, this wouldn't even be. Right? Yeah. So I I I guess that's just something to note, but it it was sad. It was sad to see that someone that is such a positive force, you know, lose that. Especially when they were sitting at the police station and the dad came out of nowhere.

27:11Oti: Yeah. It's it's it's one of those stories where you get you have to understand the sort of context in where the world or of where the story is being made. Mhmm. It's illegal. So everything they do, regardless of whether people need to be progressive in the eyes of the law, that's illegal.

27:35KT: But the beauty of this film is it's going to open up a discussion and it's not going to be overnight. But, like, you know, people poo poo the arts, but it really does change and shift culture. Sometimes it takes too long and arts needs to push it. But I think there is definitely power in creativity and Kenyan artists and to bring this story to light. So hopefully it is the start of many sort of steps.

28:08Oti: Oh, yeah. For sure. Just waiting for a Ugandan version.

28:13KT: Yes. Well, friends and lovers, we are in it for the long haul, so we'll still be podcasting when that happens. Mhmm. I I guess, you know, beef before we move on to other sort of sections, just while we're still in this sort of discussion, I do wanna talk a bit about the physical assault between Kena and Ziki. Something that has been, I guess, simmering over the course of the film is Nduta has a kind of relationship with Blacksta. And she is constantly visibly, very visibly

28:55KT: jealous of Kena. Yep. And I think the jealousy is fueled by Blacksta's nonchalance about her existence. And his pursuit of Kena. Yes. And there was nothing she could do about it. Yeah. There's obviously a lot to say about Mama Atim. And I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree or whatever the Kenyan equivalent is. But in regards to Nduta, she she kind of becomes the catalyst of what drives,

29:26KT: you know, one of the most emotional and one of the most powerful sort of scenes in this film. Yeah. So I I do appreciate that it wasn't just out of nowhere. Very similar to was it It Chapter Two where it kind of felt a bit tacked on, where they had a similar sort of scene to affect

29:26Oti: The whole It series is tacked on. So

29:26KT: Okay. O o Oti Pennywise is not a fan, but feel free to go listen to our It episode.

29:54KT: But it does have a similar scene. That's why I brought it up. It's For Your Reference, friends lovers. But when we have the scene of Kena and Ziki being physically assaulted, it is through her jealousy and through her own actions. And it is a very interesting, poignant sort of message, which I believe was deliberate. How her own personal vendetta, she used the society against Kena and Ziki. So she had her own vendetta, but she knew that people would feel a certain way about the situation as she used the community against them. Yep.

30:32Oti: Yeah. She did. And I think one of the better things to come out of that is Blacksta didn't care. Blacksta was still Kena's friend. And I think that was really pivotal, especially when Kena was pretty much dumped or told to go away by Ziki. The only person she could talk to was Blacksta because the mom oh my god. The mom was ridiculous. Mom was really was super religious. Yeah. And you know how that goes.

31:05KT: So let let's stay let's stay with Blacksta because we definitely have a lot to talk about the mom and religion. But I guess, you know, this this is a film about love and, it it might be romantic love. It might be unfortunately, there's not a lot of, like, family sort of love in a lot of aspects. But Blacksta, it doesn't even matter. He loves Kena. And I think it's it feels like that sort of love that he'll always have for her. Yeah. Regardless of whether that's going to be reciprocated, it was unrequited love. So

31:45KT: yeah. So definitely that was the only place that she had to turn.

31:49Oti: Oh, yeah. It was. And I think because we saw Blacksta heckle the gay guy Mhmm. He was there right on it. And I think when I'm assuming when he heard about Kena, his feelings for her outweighed any sort of prejudice that he might hold.

32:09KT: But I think also at the same time, like, it's unfortunate, but if you've grown up in Christian dominated or just like any sort of religion, like sort of dominated country, you know, there are like, you know, there are casual, like pastimes of just, you know, making fun of gay people. Right? It's unfortunate, but it happens. And it's interesting to see through the experience of Blacksta, yeah, he's casually,

32:43KT: you know, participating in it. But when it's applied to someone that he loves a lot, it changes his view or at least just for her. And I guess in some cases, maybe that's as much as we can get.

32:43Oti: Yeah. I wouldn't say it changed his view. I think he was just more I think he just

33:00Oti: really couldn't understand why Kena just couldn't find it in her heart to love him Mhmm. To the point where when Kena when he offered Kena a ride towards the end of the movie Yep. And Kena was like because all this ride, she was going with Blacksta on rides throughout the whole movie. Yeah. But at this point, she just said, I'm sorry. I'm in love with Ziki.

33:27KT: Yeah.

33:27Oti: And that just pissed off Blacksta so much. He's like, screw you, guy. And then he just drove off. Why

33:33Oti: can't you see I'm the one I'm the one here for you? I've always been here for you.

33:41KT: But like, I do do are you obligated to someone, specifically in this case, a man just because he's there for you? Because then because is that is that friendship a fraud?

33:41Oti: I don't think that's fair though.

33:41KT: No. No. It's a fraud.

33:41Oti: I don't think he was coming at it from I think he just felt really hurt that the feelings weren't being reciprocated.

33:41KT: But I don't think Kena actually led him on. I to to be perfectly honest, because he is a straight man,

34:08KT: I feel like because he didn't see Kena with a man, he just assumed that she was for him. Yeah. Let's move on to a different topic. Do you wanna tackle religion first or you wanna tackle politics? Maybe politics in Kenya. If you've listened to our first episode, which is

34:27Oti: Black Panther.

34:29KT: Oti had a problem with my Daniel Kaluuya Hallelujah because he reminded Oti so much of corrupt, sort of politicians. Not to say that we have this in this film, but it's what we in the industry call a segue or an attempted segue. So there there's definitely a theme of politics in this film. So do you wanna go first?

34:55Oti: Oh, yeah. So Kena's dad wants to vie for a seat. Mhmm. He's been nominated by the community because they just want to remove the popular, richer, current member of parliament per se. So it's it's sort of interesting to see that the dynamism of how that works because it pretty much shows you that if you're poor or have little resources Uh-huh. To run a fully fledged campaign, people with more money will always outdo you. And you'd always get that vote because you get your message out or you can bribe more people

35:39Oti: to vote for you on the day. And we saw him struggle with that. We saw him struggle. He's he's hung. He's put up posters on his small kiosk. They graffitied it. Yeah. Later in the movie. And then you come with Okemi, who was Ziki's dad, with a full fledged, like, three cars motorcade with people singing and shouting, saying how they vote for them. Him on a bus just waving at people and stuff, and you're like, oh, you're never gonna beat that because you're only using word-of-mouth. You're

36:17Oti: using posters stuck on walls, and you're not gonna get that sort of goodwill in as much as this guy would because people will just vote for, yeah, I saw him do his campaign. Yeah. Vote.

36:29KT: So has there ever been a time in Kenyan history where there was like an underdog that didn't necessarily have all of the financial resources?

36:29Oti: Nope.

36:29KT: Damn, dawg. Thanks for listening.

36:29Oti: World is a bitch, mate.

36:29KT: So it's The world the world is a fucking bitch and that is definitely true. And I I like how this film didn't shy away from, you know, the ugly truth. The the truth that gets buried between cultural expectations, religious expectations, political expectations, as well as family expectations.

37:08Oti: And we see how all that is sort of tied in together because in as much as Kena's dad is running in the sort of political space, what transpired with Kena and the society and community the finding out that she's gay, they all start turning on on the dad. Yeah. They start graffitiing his wall. They don't go to his shop affecting his financials. He can't support his family probably then on. But we still see him stand by his daughter because if there's anything in this world he will not do is give up on her.

37:45KT: There were quite a few moments where I teared up in this movie and that was fucking one of them. Yeah. Because you you wanna you wanna believe that on some level, you know, your parents or you as a parent, you know, can see the people you love as the people you love. Not as some sort of veneer of what they should present themselves to society.

38:06Oti: And I reckon the dad sort of knew already because he had seen Kena and Ziki out. Yeah. And I think putting two two two together, you're like, maybe you suspected it because he didn't seem shocked. He didn't seem shocked when he came to pick her up at the police station either.

38:26KT: So so I guess, you know, there's a conversation we can have another day about him leaving the mother even though she seemed to have been sick. There there's definitely a conversation to be had about him leaving his wife and being with someone else and having a baby with someone else. There's definitely something to be said about that. But again, that's not the conversation we're going to have today. But I guess the thing that I wanted to point out is, you know, he was not judgmental at all. And the mother that had,

38:59KT: you know, deservedly so, any sort of bitterness that she might have had. But the unfortunate thing was that wasn't deserved was she pretty much directed that in any direction she could. And unfortunately, it was always targeted as Kena. And

39:17KT: then, you know, it's just convenient she found, you know, her sexuality to blame it on, you know, breaking this house apart. Yep. Right? And I I I guess that's just sort of a general note. Usually, people that are very conservative or have really high standards that they perhaps might not even observe themselves are very fucking judgy. And, you know, love is love as we all know. But, you know, love shouldn't be conditional, especially when it comes to family.

39:46Oti: Oh, no. It shouldn't. It shouldn't.

39:49KT: So I think I I think it was interesting that that politics as a theme was brought into this film. I guess going back to how I feel overall about the film, I think maybe if that wasn't in this film, we might've had more time to explore them as characters, Kena and Ziki. Maybe saw by Oti. Oti. I said how important it was, but I also said I was going to say some real things.

40:18Oti: Fair enough. You're to give me you're going to give me the same sort of Blacksta treatment right now.

40:23KT: Oh, goodness, goodness me. Let's talk about religion for a little bit because this also plays a recurring theme throughout the film. It's it's also a way to set a backdrop of what has just happened or what is about to be. A lot of the sermons are centered around, you know, the central plot of the film. And obviously a lot of that intertwined with sexuality. Yep. Right? You know, we have a particular sermon where the pastor is talking about,

41:03KT: I love my wife. I love my wife so much, but the people that are supporting same sex marriage don't see it that way. Right? And they're even going against the government. Right? So I guess in regards to that sermon, it was just interesting. I actually really enjoyed the vehicle and the messaging of having those sermons intertwined. I personally found it to be very satirical and contrary in many ways. But as as a device for storytelling, I thought that was quite effective.

41:41Oti: It was quite effective because that's what the church sort of plays a role in sort of pushing this sort of prejudices are because what? It's written in some old fucking book that God doesn't like gay people? Then

42:00KT: Interesting. Interesting. Very, very interesting fact. When the bible was translated into English, they actually replaced pedophile or the equivalent of pedophile with homosexuals. There you go. So there you go friends and lovers. So unless you're going to translate it yourself, again, I know we talk about it a lot. We even jest about it a lot. But once you guys are ready, we will have a real conversation about institutionalized religion. Maybe not today. As far as I could tell, they were Christian.

42:35Oti: Christian.

42:36KT: What sort of Christian? Because they weren't because usually Catholic have cathedrals. Right? No. Maybe like Pentecostal?

42:42Oti: It sounded Catholic.

42:44KT: No. Not even Catholic. Maybe Pentecostal, you're right. I didn't feel the heavy whipping guilt.

42:51Oti: Regardless of what denomination, it just it's sort of a tool where like, it get religion playing such a major role in developing countries because of all the sort of archaic rules and regulations, be it you can't use condoms, people are getting the spread of STDs and shit. Uh-huh. And you you you sit back and wonder exactly who it is it's serving. Yeah. Africans as a whole had their own sort of way of life before colonization. They had their own beliefs, their whole systems

43:30Oti: until it all got enforced and all changed. And to just follow that blindly now, knowing the history, knowing the context Yeah. Not only is it infuriating, but to take yourself back and to castigate your fellow people because of who they fucking love Yeah. Is just next level ridiculous. And I think watching that, it just got me really riled up and angry. And you just want to smack some sense into people and I don't know.

44:03KT: Can we have like a GTA Oti edition where you just go around smacking people? Yeah. I think, you know, without being too controversial, to not acknowledge that religion as an institution isn't used as a political tool, especially in regards to oppression is definitely a conversation that needs to be had. Again, maybe we're not ready for that as a people, but it's

44:03Oti: Oh, they go hand in hand.

44:03KT: They they definitely do. It is very effective to oppress people and say turn the other cheek.

44:41Oti: As I could see, politicians go to church when they want to get their message out. Okemi went to church, and he was called out by the pastor. He's giving a shout out. Yep. And that's a way of sort of semi endorsing him. But also at the same the pastor said that, he'd be like, oh, I'm gonna vote for him because

44:41KT: Also at the same time, you know, Okemi is contributing

45:02KT: to the congregation.

45:02Oti: Oh, to the coffers.

45:02KT: Oh, of course. And I think actually, good point because I think that's the first time we're introduced to the church and the pastor. And he also gives a shout out at the same time to John, a very successful businessman. Yeah. Right? So he knows who's lining his pockets. Oh, oh, for sure. He takes it from all sides. I guess I I guess money isn't loyal to anyone.

45:27Oti: No. It is not.

45:29KT: So, yeah, there's definitely an influence that religion has and political ties, you know, intertwined with that. Let's let's move on to something possibly a little bit lighter. And let's talk about I I I feel like it's tangible enough to bring it up as a discussion point. How big and how delicious you can decide. But let's talk about Mama Atim and the theme of gossiping.

46:00Oti: That is so like, I watched this. I was like, oh my god. I could name five, ten people who are like that when I grew up. Like, it's such a vice. It's such

46:00KT: What else do you do? Do you just sit around waiting for gossip?

46:00Oti: Oh, the people who are exactly like that. All they do is gossip. All they do is just be in other people's business. And wow. She just goes above and beyond to be in everyone's.

46:27KT: You know you know, in some cultures how you have like professional mourners. Yeah. I feel like maybe they don't get paid, but I feel like there are many professional gossipers as well. But also at the same time, it was very interesting when Kena's mom said, you know, Mama Atim does gossip, but she never lies. Yep. So she kind of becomes she's essentially the Daily Mail of the community.

46:27Oti: Oh, Daily Mail lies though.

46:27KT: Oh, okay. So

46:57Oti: The Nairobi Mail. Let's go with the Nairobi Mail.

47:03KT: I really appreciated that this film had so much, depth, and it had so many layers. It wasn't just, you know, this is a community of Kenyan people, but there were different layers to it. And there were different life experiences and there were different growth levels Yeah. As well. But at the epicenter, you always have the gossipers, right? Oh, remember when the mom wanted to go over because she wanted to know what the news was and then she found out what the news was and she didn't wanna know?

47:39Oti: Yep. For the baby.

47:41KT: I don't know, man. Again, we're we're not targeting Kena's dad because he loved and supported Kena. But, man, to to move on with another woman and still be in the same area, in the same congregation, and having this having the wife have to see it every week, again, that that is not that is not a kettle of fish that we are tackling today. Something something else that's a little bit more light and a little bit more fun. I just wanted to talk about Kenya and Nairobi as a backdrop. A

48:16KT: couple of times on our podcast, we have referenced Nairobi Half Life. But we haven't necessarily just talked about, you know, Nairobi and Kenya as a backdrop in general. So I guess what was it like? What was it like knowing that this is for international consumption and having it so proudly, so fiercely, so unapologetically Kenyan?

48:39Oti: I think they did it well. I think they portrayed the sort of socioeconomic status quo, and they've done it in such a testful, tasteful, artistic way that it it clearly represents how Kenya is and how Nairobi is and all those sort of aspects of, you know, with the politics. And it's all just it's small scale in the movie, but that's just how generally it is. Yeah. And to me, they captured the essence of Nairobi Yep. To the tea because I don't think I've seen anything that's done this so beautifully before.

49:27KT: And I guess also an interesting thing is and feel free to sound off Oti, but when Kena was talking to Ziki saying, let's go out for a soda. I wanna take you out. Let's go out for a soda. And they literally went to Mama Atim's kiosk.

49:44Oti: Yeah. There's always that one place where they go would somewhere. What No. You're in the neighborhood. You just there's that one place you all go. You know? She is in prime position to be the gossip if she's if she's, like, where the food source is. It is what it is. Yeah. You know? There's just not one place you go in the neighborhood. You have your own shop. You're local. You guys call it locals here. You know? Yeah. You're local. Yeah. And you go there regardless of whether or not if there's something else better

50:11Oti: on the other side of the neighborhood or a different neighborhood. You don't. You stay true to your local. Now that's what it is.

50:11KT: But I just I thought it was interesting that everyone

50:20KT: notoriously knows how much of a gossip she is, but they still end up there. Yeah. Because at least in they thought they would be being careful

50:29Oti: and they really weren't.

50:32KT: Fair enough. It was it was lovely. It was lovely to, you know, give this film some time and come back to it so we can cover it on the podcast. You know, a lot of the times we'll watch something and then we won't record it. And because we, you know, it's too soon to watch it again, we might not record it for a while. But I'm glad that we circled back on this film. I definitely have I have more of a a love for this film. I always had an appreciation for it.

51:08KT: I also I always understood how important it was, to queer cinema and also to, you know, the creative arts in Kenya, and how groundbreaking it is and how it will continue to trailblaze, you know, in Kenya and also the world at large. But I really found my way with love, in this film. And I guess I guess what I just wanted to say as well is, you know, we we are all fallible creatures, but don't be a fucking dick. Yeah. If you have children that understand who they are, accept them.

51:51KT: If if you have parents that don't accept you, you know, this is this is coming from someone that is a major cut you the fuck out of my life if you're being toxic. But, you know, in regards to Ziki is a very good example. You need to conserve your sense of self and you need to preserve your happiness. And if people are coming into your sphere, you know, with malicious intent, whether they are people that you have loved for years or whether they are someone that is completely new, you need to protect that. And

52:29KT: that's something that is so important. You know, fights will continue to need to be fought, you know, petitions, protests, donations, you know, systemic sort of discrimination, but you need to protect your sense of self. Oh, for sure. And I really feel like that is is very important, not just to this film, not just to Black Lives Matter, but also to the LGBT community. If no one's going to look after you, then you look after yourself. Then everyone else can worry about themselves. Yep. And you need to protect your happiness. And whatever that happiness is,

53:07KT: we love and support you. And don't be a fucking dick and don't let people be a fucking dick to you. Right? Yep. So let's end off this episode with a quote by Wanuri in one of her interviews. I think it was the Toronto International Film Festival. The right to love is a basic human right. That's the fucking tweet. Is that what the kids say? Yep. That is the tweet. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much guys for listening to this episode. It is a vibrant movie and it is very fun.

53:46KT: But, you know, there are some like, I I guess, you know, there is love out there, but there's also a lot of ugliness, opposing love as well. So I'm glad that we were able to tackle that, in this episode. But we fucking love you guys and take take care of yourselves.

54:07Oti: Take care of yourselves indeed.

54:09KT: Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference.

54:13Oti: I'm gonna reference From a Whisper. It's the first feature film of Wanuri's. Mhmm. And it's it fictional is sort of sort of the terrorist attack that happened in the US embassy in Nairobi.

54:28KT: Uh-huh.

54:29Oti: It's a beautiful deep story that I think everyone should just dive in and watch. Search for it. Should be in Amazon. Go for it. Nice.

54:41KT: I've got two references. I I guess just another reminder that we did A Single Man this time last year. So definitely check that out. And a movie that we haven't covered that we should cover is Moonlight. Oh.

54:58Oti: Nice.

55:01KT: So I say it, but everyone needs to be said. We fucking love you. Take care of yourselves. If you wanna see us on a day to day sort of basis on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You could write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And we'll see you guys next week. Kwaheri. Nice. Bye.