The Shield – Fool me once, Shane on you

Full transcript of The Shield – Fool me once, Shane on you.

0:00KT: Hey, friends and lovers. We don't usually do preemptive warnings, but like Training Day, this does surround some dodgy police force in America. So we just wanna give you guys the chance to opt out of this episode, but it's not necessarily a spoiler. But if you have watched The Shield, it is a biting, scathing, allegoric story for those same cops. So strap in. Otherwise, if this isn't for you, we've got some other episodes you can enjoy.

0:33KT: But like anything in life, there's a lot of chaotic yelling that goes around, and we're very excited to talk about this show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:33Oti: And Oti.

0:33KT: And destroy the photo evidence of mouth favors and meet me at the Barn because this week, we are covering the FX series, The Shield.

0:33Oti: Woo hoo.

0:33KT: Woo hoo hoo indeed. I'm not sure if you knew this, Oti, but The Shield was the first basic cable series to win a Golden Globe for best television drama.

1:32Oti: Woah.

1:32KT: I'll need to see how that reconciles with The Wire. Otherwise, I'll need to fight someone. But before we get into fighting let's start off with our stats this show was released as we said in FX in March 2002 and it ran all the way to 2008 speaking of what a time for television because from 2002 to 2008, you had The Shield and The Wire. Mhmm. What a delightful time to be around. And if you've watched The Wire and you didn't know we had three and a half hours worth of content on our podcast,

2:08KT: Definitely go and check it out. Speaking of FX, we also have other episodes on Snowfall most recently and Archer, which is now on FX. From the creator of Shawn Ryan. He is known to be associated with the Beverly Hills Cop TV movie. He also directed five episodes of the Angel or Angell TV series. Mhmm. He also recently started the show with Shemar Moore, S.W.A.T. and also The Chicago Code and you'll see some of our most loved friends and lovers from The Shield also appear in The Chicago Code and also S.W.A.T. as well.

2:54KT: We have a cast of Michael Chiklis, Catherine Dent, Walton Goggins. We have guest stars of Forest Whitaker, Daniel Daddy Dae Kim, and also Glenn Close. Glenn Close. If you're closer. But welcome, welcome, welcome. If this is the first time that you tuned in to the For Your Reference podcast, we take kindly to your kind around here. And if you have stuck around for almost 80 episodes, we fucking welcome you to sit on our Jupiter's cock. Mhmm. Go and listen to our Spartacus episode as well. So which is our format? We move into our first impression. So,

3:33KT: Oti, you have championed a lot of introductions into the For Your Reference household, and The Shield is no stranger to you. So please give us your background of watching The Shield for the first time and how it has felt watching it now.

3:52Oti: I watched so this is my second rewatching of The Shield. Mhmm. And I watched it when it I think when it a season after it it had come out. I think Kenyan TV was weird, it was a bit back in the day. So I watched it with my family,

4:10Oti: and I think I didn't understand a lot of what's going on because on my rewatch, I was getting new information. I was like, what the fuck? This really happened? So it was really exciting for me rewatching this because to some layer, I had a bit of understanding what had happened, but it was completely being unveiled to a deeper to a deeper level. I was like, oh, bloody hell. This is really interesting. Did this really happen? Did they really were allowed to say this on TV?

4:41Oti: But well, I just wow. It was amazing. It was amazingly watching this. It gave me a lot of feels watching Vic Mackey do his stuff. My love for Goggins being tested to the limit.

4:55KT: Absolutely.

4:57Oti: And how good was it seeing Lemansky, man? That was just he's he's a he's a character that you just fall in love with. You love him. You feel his pain. You you buy into his struggle even though he was not used as much as I thought he was. He or as much as I thought he did. But just brilliant, brilliant

5:18Oti: supporting cast that I think one of the better casted TV shows out there.

5:18KT: Oh, absolutely. And that's Kenny Johnson. And the reason why he looks so familiar to me when we started watching The Shield is because he's the kind of unhinged father in Bates Motel. At least that's how I came across him in the first instance. Again, if you are new to the For Your Reference household, we have a habit of being able to binge 75 to, like, 90 episode shows within three weeks. Yeah.

5:51KT: We did it with Game of Thrones. We did it with Daddywood, if you're nasty. And, yeah, I think we gobbled this up in, like, three weeks. Yep. We've got a high tolerance for it. It was an absolute pleasure. And I think not to say it's something that denotes to less quality in writing, but I think a lot of the time we can get caught up in the fanfare and, you know, the stylistic nature of action sequences and, you know, the pretty sort of costume design and sets.

6:24KT: And sometimes I just want a fucking good story. Mhmm. You know, the the there's a Venn diagram, but it's very rare that you can achieve both. But I really appreciated the groundedness that The Shield has.

6:39KT: The

6:40KT: Shield is actually based on an existing squad that was called CRASH, and there is some sort of rumors that they might have been involved of the murder of Notorious B.I.G. Okay. And you would have seen even early on in the show, there would be at, like, rappers launch parties that were actually used as, muscle of ours as well. So there are definitely some maybe not substantiated, but in some cases, there are some true to life facts that have peppered in to the series. And like we mentioned,

7:16KT: it it really is an allegory of, you know, shitty people getting their comeuppance. And it comes in different ways, but it always catches up to you. And that's what I really appreciated. Comma's a bit. Well, except for Dutch, but we'll talk about we'll talk about characters specifically but we have steeped ourselves in some some light sort of comedies and we've also indulged ourselves in some pure qualitat.

7:49KT: And

7:50KT: this show definitely falls into the latter. If you've most recently listened to our Pussy Valley episode or even our Perry Mason episode, it is going to follow a similar sort of format where we talk about, you know, themes or clusters or proximity characters in regards to a particular place that we're talking about. But, you know, obviously, we are going to start with the mister man, Vic Mackey.

8:23Oti: Mhmm.

8:25KT: You know, we we reference Family Guy a lot. You know, there are quite a few cutaways of Michael Chiklis in Family Guy, but I'm glad that I finally understand and I can laugh wholeheartedly at the cutaways in Family Guy.

8:41Oti: I think he showed me the one where Chiklis is doing a cutaway where Chiklis is wearing his TAT t shirts, but he doesn't look muscly. He just looks fat. Regardless of how much Yeah. Regardless of how much he pumps iron. So that was really funny. That was interesting.

9:01KT: It was. The interesting thing is I didn't know him from the previous series that he was on called Commish, but he was very timid. He was very well-to-do, and this was a real departure for him. And shaving his hair really added a new dimension like we got the next level we got Chiklis 2.0 oh yeah but let's talk about Vic Mackey I think on surface level, it is easy to say that he's a shitty person. And I guess to many degrees, it can be said that he is a shitty person.

9:37KT: But I I definitely believe that there was depth to him. He wasn't a dickhead just to be a dickhead. He had some sort of code that he was living by. Whether whether distorted

9:50KT: or not, he did have a code that he was living by.

9:50Oti: He did have a code, but let's not get it twisted. They're all pretty greedy people only in it for themselves. You could say they're trying to get to beat the street, they had to be a certain level. Uh-huh. But the law is there for a reason. And once you cross that line, then everything you do is put under a microscope and affect a lot of other people. And, you know, we had Vic battle

10:21Oti: or struggle with himself trying to understand or trying to figure out how to to to be a better person, especially when he came in contact with Rawling who really wanted Vic to to to to elevate himself. Yes. You have all this street knowledge, but use it use it well, toe the line, and then you have to do then you can only do good police work. You know?

10:43Oti: I think one of the reasons why I I I lacked in the first time I watched it, it was all pretty surface level, and I really didn't understand the nuances of what was going on. Yeah. And on my second rewatch, I was just really feeling all the because you can understand the sort of pain he's going through, especially when he's trying to protect his family above all else. Uh-huh. And we sort of see how his strong passions of, oh, this is family. I need to protect my family. I need to protect the the squad.

11:15Oti: And how that battle internally affects him in all the decisions he makes,

11:21Oti: which pretty much is his undoing right up until the end.

11:21KT: Yeah. I think his his goal to keep the family a family definitely was the demise of not only his quote unquote family but also himself.

11:37KT: There

11:38KT: there were moments where, you know, we were worried about whether he would sell out his team, and it wasn't until really the very end where he did that to Ronnie. But, you know, who the fuck is Ronnie? Right? Who the fuck is Ronnie? He's like Donnie from Lebowski.

11:38Oti: No one gives a fuck, mate. Or Brett from Archer.

11:38KT: Or Brett from Archer. I swear to god, Ronnie.

12:03Oti: If you bleed.

12:08KT: But Vic Mackey is a very interesting character because he he does come hard down on oh my. Is that a saying? I don't know. I guess we'll see. He he did come hard down on Connie. He I I would say that Vic Mackey was tough where he needed to be. Like, when it came to people that weren't, like, in gang related activity and they were normal civilians, I don't think he put as much violence and pressure on those people, and I think he chose his moments.

12:42KT: And we do see that later on in the series with the witness that chose to double cross him, Emolia. And, you know, there are moments where his kindness does get taken for granted, but it really is a dog eat dog sort of cycle in his proximity and just in the show in general. Yeah. But then again, have to think about this in a different way because the

13:04Oti: first sort of interaction or how we're introduced to Vic is him shooting another cop.

13:04KT: Well, it's not that's not the first initial thing.

13:04Oti: I agree. Sort of first thing we see the strike team do is take down a cop regardless of whether it's it's just him and and and and and and Goggins doing it, Shane doing it Uh-huh. That's the sort of vast impact we have of who Vic is as a person, who the strike team are.

13:04KT: But you know what the interesting thing is?

13:32KT: I because we were hot off of our heels with Training Day, I had assumed that Vic Mackey and his strike squad had already done shit like that. So to see the ripple effects of him shooting the cop and seeing how it frazzled them, particularly Shane, like, it was interesting to see the fallout of that because it wasn't a casual thing. It was something that was very weighted and it started to affect the unit. So

14:01KT: I I wouldn't say that it was an easy decision, but at the end of the day, he needed to make that decision quickly. And that happened in the pilot, actually, did it not? So and and I I will say it now on official record, if this is counted as official record, The Shield has one of the best pilots in television history. Mhmm. So much was set up in the pilot and there was so much intrigue and you just knew that there was so much satiating

14:28KT: storylines that we could go down. And the pacing, man. The pacing, absolutely. And to have that final shot in that final scene if you'll pardon the pun was absolutely crucial to the that it's a literal cliffhanger right and it it it was beautifully done we didn't need a zoom in to people's nose hairs we got it we understood it and we were immersed in a world that we wanted to stay in for eighty eight episodes and

14:58KT: we said spoiler spoiler spoiler so if you want us to enter your holes then that is most welcome but if you haven't watched the show I'm going to go all the way to the end because to talk about Vic Mackey is to talk about his overarching character development and I love the way that this show is done. If you watch The Shield, you know, like you mentioned, if you watch it on surface level or if you don't even finish the show, it's very easy to see, you know, The Shield, but specifically Vic Mackey

15:29KT: as a beacon for cops that, you know, walk the line between what's right and what's wrong and, you know, taking spoils of war and doing whatever you absolutely want to do. But what we see throughout the series is the fragments of, you know, debris that that, you know, catapults in, you know, in moments that he can't even account for. And he's losing parts of himself. And even up until the very end, he keeps trying to hold on to that idea of a family that was hurting him all the way along.

16:06KT: Yeah. And let let's be real. I'm talking about Shane right now. But let's get to the actual final episode. I think this is the first time we've moved all the way to, like, 80 episodes. But I do wanna talk about this because it's very important. And then, obviously, we can talk about more characters. But I wanna focus on Vic Mackey because the way like you said, the way he is presented to us, he does what he needs to do out in the streets, but he also shoots a cop. Mhmm. Necessary

16:34KT: understanding the story, but the fact that he did that all in one in a pilot episode, it really denotes to, you know, the the limitations that he doesn't place on himself Yeah. And how he does feel like he's above the law. And as time goes on, as we lose beloved characters along the way, we have that final episode and we have that final scene. I just wanna focus on this scene specifically, and then we can also always go back and talk about everyone else. But in the final scene,

17:07KT: it it's pretty much like it's it's career death, really, for Vic Mackey. He has made an arrangement where he is going to be on desk duty for years, and he's going to have to submit reports. And I think one of the saddest but one of the funniest moments is where we see him walking down the hall in a suit. Yeah. Like, just pure emasculation. You have, you know, the manliest of men with his tightest and muscliest of t shirts

17:39KT: all the way going to that suit. But the the most poignant moment that you have is right at the end of the series where you have Vic Mackey looking at, you know, photos of his family that he's never going to see again by his own hand, by his own actions, by his own mistakes. Mhmm. He doesn't have his friends anymore. He doesn't have his unit anymore. And he's staring at a gun.

18:05KT: And what we see in the final moments of this series is he grabs the gun and he walks out. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I think to me,

18:15Oti: it was pretty clear in terms of what I thought I thought Vic was going to do. He was going to start up a a fight. He was going to go and bust out something that he knows pretty well he's not coming back from, and that's how he wanted to go. He wanted to go by his own terms. He's not ever going to kill himself because I don't think Vic is that kind of character. He was going to cause trouble. He was going to make himself

18:39Oti: put himself in a situation where he won't be able to get Yeah. And that's pretty much how Vic saw himself going down. He lived by us. He lived saying he knows the street. And by God, I know that's how he wanted to go out as well.

18:53KT: Absolutely. And I think it's a great life lesson. He wanted to have it all in every sense of the word. He wanted his job. He wanted his job the way he wanted his job. He wanted his family. He wanted his family the way he wanted his family. You know, he wanted his side pieces however he wanted his side pieces.

19:12KT: And in life, you can't have everything exactly the way you want it. Yeah. Like those And he had to make a room for compromise. He had multiple opportunities to step away from being a cop retiree, get his pension, walk away.

19:25Oti: They had, like even even the wife was telling him, you know, walk away. You could get a security job. You know? You could do a lot of things out there that doesn't require you to be a cop. The fact that you have a badge you had a badge and you walked the streets for all this time, you could get a corporate gig that will pretty much sort you out financially.

19:43Oti: But that wasn't Vic, was it? No. He he had a plan. He had his he he's he was unwavering in his in his commitment to what he wanted to be. So the fact that all of this, it was just a slap in the face because I think by the third season Mhmm. You're just waiting to see how the house of cards will come crumbling crumble crumbling down. Mhmm. And and the fact that because I I I told you while we're watching this, there was no way anyone walks away from this clean.

20:13KT: Yeah. And that and I love that because once you start to see it with one of the characters, you know that everyone is tethered to this disgusting world that they've created. And like you said, no one's going to get out of it cleanly.

20:28Oti: Yeah. And it's such a shame the way it all happened to Ronnie because we know the one time he wavered in his commitment to protect family Yeah. Is the same thing that actually breaks them all down. Like, he takes Ronnie away. His family gets away from him. Yeah. And he's he ends up alone. The one thing he really didn't want, he could have run with Ronnie when things are going haywire. He could have done that and just you know, there was so many opportunities you're like, mate.

20:58KT: Well, I think I think also he was balancing multiple scales. Like, every time he tried to balance his work life, you know, Corrine and the kids would be struggling. And whenever he tried to help, especially Cassidy, you know, his work would struggle. Like, he was constantly trying to balance multiple scales, and that was part of the problem. He wanted to be everything to everyone,

21:22KT: and he ended up being no one to no one.

21:22Oti: Like Kenny Rogers said, darling, a good gambler knows the secret to surviving, knowing what to throw away, knowing what to keep.

21:37Oti: You better count your money. When you're sitting at the red

21:37KT: Oh absolutely that pretty much encapsulates it well if we could afford it we will play the song for the rest of the episode unfortunately you've got you've got Oti Rogers and the KT Gambler but absolutely absolutely and you know pretty much he is the main character for this show yeah and how fragmented his shield is throughout his career So let's continue on to our clusters. I've called this one the strike team and who we have encapsulating the strike team and we'll

22:22KT: interplay with them and we'll we'll bring them in once we're satiated and lubricated. We have Shane Vendrell and then in brackets Mara. We've got Curtis Lemansky. May he rest in love and peace and power. And Tigre who was his girlfriend at some point, and then they just forgot about it. I also have Ronnie Gardocki, Tavon Garris, and Kevin Hiatt, who is the Hawaii Five-0 guy that comes later on in the series. Did you know, Oti,

22:54KT: as much as we love the Strike team, it was actually anticipated that Vic Mackey would be the main focus, and they were going to be more characters in the background. Oh, really? Yeah. And further to that, Shane Vendrell wasn't going to be in a lot of the episodes.

23:10Oti: Woah. Woah. Yeah.

23:12KT: It wasn't anticipated that he was going to be a regular cast member, but he wanted to show that he had the proper acting abilities and try to convince the network to keep him on board.

23:23Oti: Wow. Well, just shows you, man. When you start rolling that camera, you don't know what you're gonna get. The script is meant to be amended. That is weird. I I really can't see how the shoot would have been without the strike team being so central

23:39Oti: being such a central part of this.

23:39KT: Yeah. But it would have it would have saved me pulling a lot of my hair out in defiance. And more than ever, if you're looking for a good time, you should definitely follow us on Twitter and Instagram. But in Twitter specifically, I did say that Walton Goggins tops the coolest names list. However, after watching Shane Vendrell for eighty eight episodes, I need a break from his face. I need a break from his voice.

24:13KT: And the most interesting thing is, I think the most recent thing we watched him is, it's like a ABC comedy called Unicorn where he's a widowed stepdad. So he's very wholesome.

24:24Oti: He's very wholesome. Very from his goggin from his shaminess.

24:29KT: Oh, absolutely. And I know that there is a reference to his character in Sons of Anarchy, which I haven't got into, but I need a break. I need to get off the Goggins ride just for a little while. But let's talk a bit about the unit. I think Shane takes a lot of real estate emotionally and financially, actually, in this show. So let's talk a bit about Shane and, I guess, Mara as an extension. Well, Shane is

24:59Oti: Vic's oldest pal. They were partners even before they formed this strike team. And they formed it together. Yeah. So you could tell why they were so close with each other and why Shane meant so much. So Shane does some stupid shit. Yeah. And the and the teams it's the team's obligation to always rescue him. But Shane gets a big head because he feels that he needs to be up there just the same way as Vic when it comes to decision making. Like, wants the title just to have the title, but he doesn't have the cojones

25:31Oti: Nor the brainpower to to to to to think things through.

25:31KT: Or any body part.

25:31Oti: He doesn't have any body part that makes a leader. And I and I and I keep on saying, like, we get a lot of movies and stories that the women are always this sort of downfall of these characters. And you add one really toxic one in Mara who instantly feeds Shane some you know, their love is weird and crazy

25:56Oti: because I pegged Mara as just using Shane for the money. I was like, bloody hell. I did not see her being a ride or die.

25:56KT: You know what? Like, when you romanticize

26:05KT: ride or die, you have Beyonce and Jay Z in the Bonnie and Clyde music video, but what you really get is Mara from the motherfucking Shield. Yes.

26:16Oti: The poster the poster child.

26:18KT: Or I was gonna mention a character in You, but I don't wanna spoil it. But, yeah, you definitely have those super dedicated women characters that, you know, they they've been drinking their own monthly Kool Aid. Oh,

26:34Oti: for sure. I think Mara played the perfect Delilah to him. And, you know, it's just one of those things that I really didn't see or understand. We know Shane struggled finding a a connection or relationship. And once he found someone that was willing to to to to listen to him and and and to give him and to enable him to some extent. He he went two feet in. He dived all the way in. How about when she found that money?

27:02KT: And she went all the way to get the money from the

27:06KT: storage place as

27:06Oti: Storage place. Yeah. To give it to the mother. Wow. And the mother is bloody nuts.

27:12KT: The yeah. The crazy apple doesn't fall far from the apple tree.

27:16Oti: That was something alright. Like, I just didn't understand. And and in as much as Shane loved Vic or or even Ronnie or Lem, you'd know very well once they started pushing that they need to leave she needs to leave Mara. That would never happen. Yeah. That would never happen.

27:16KT: But you know what was funny? Like, not necessarily funny, but after the pilot,

27:40KT: you know, we start to see the aftermath of Vic's actions and him shooting the fellow cop. Right? And a lot of that is channeled through Shane and how he's struggling to accept what just happened and him having to cover up for Vic. Right? And as soon as we started to see, you know, the dust kinda settle, we're like, he's not gonna be able to handle this. Like, he's absolutely not going to be able to handle this. And he is he is very much a loose cannon in every definition of the word.

28:18KT: And for him to it is like perfect lightning

28:22Oti: Yeah. Those two. You know what I found very odd, though? Mhmm. Out of all the people that are investigating this strike team Yeah. Shane had left this strike team to partner up with Pena. Yeah. Pena was of bloody liability.

28:35KT: He was.

28:36Oti: But once he lawyered up or aged lawyered up, he just disappeared into the ether. He did. I don't retina. Even when Forest Whitaker and Claudette were all looking to bring down the strike team, he was the one he if you needed Shane to buckle If you needed a thread, it was him. It was definitely him. Absolutely. It was ridiculous how he was just reading off as if he never existed.

29:00KT: Well and I guess that's also something that I wanna say. Emotional investment, absolutely, right off from the pilot, I was in. I was I was immersed in this world, and I was happy to stay for eighty eight episodes. However, if I were to have a qualm with The Shield and Shawn Ryan in particular, it would be its lack of fleshing out storylines. So I denoted to that earlier when I mentioned Tigre because

29:29KT: that was a, you know, a substory that was happening in the series very early on and, you know, Lemansky enters a relationship with Tigre and they kind of mention her like two more times in like episodes following that, but that's pretty much it. Lemansky didn't have a life outside of work. Ronnie didn't have a life outside of work. And it makes no sense that we're spending so many seasons, so many years with these characters. And Danni Sofer is the emotional dump truck in this, like, in this series.

30:02KT: Anytime you wanted something emotional to happen, it would fucking happen to her, the poor thing. Like but, you know, there are so many things that happen in this series, and it kinda just dissipates. Yeah. Maybe because, I don't know, out of budget or they wanted to explore something else or, you know, guest stars didn't come back. But for whatever reason, it did feel a bit hollow. You know? If if I if I can so sacrilegiously

30:30KT: bring up The Wire, you know, there there were cases and there was a world outside of, you know, the detective or police force, but we still got to know them on a personal level. And I feel like we were kind of not necessarily hindered by it, but we didn't get to see much more behind the headlines of these characters. Yeah. You know, for a long time, I didn't realize that Ronnie was there the whole time, and they weren't just, like, rotating. And

30:59KT: I think it took me a couple of seasons to remember what his name was. But I I do feel that, you know, a lot of the times for shows that I love, the strength is its ability to build on existing characters and to broaden their worlds in a pacing that makes sense.

31:16Oti: Agreed. Agreed. At least there there was some continuity with Ronnie with his car.

31:21Oti: You know?

31:21KT: Actually, yes. It was archer level Dickie and Seamus Seamus. Yeah. Tattoos. And, yeah, because he had a beard. Ronnie had a beard for a long time, we and thought it was because the makeup, they didn't wanna do it anymore. The time. Yeah. But then he shaved, and he still had the scar. And we do love some continuity in the For Your Reference household. Mhmm. But, yeah, if we if we can go back to Shane as a character, I think

31:52KT: sometimes it's nice not to be fully confident in yourself. I think is the lesson for today, kids. Accept your limitations. Yes. Sometimes, you know, self awareness is key. He proved time and time again that he was the one that got in his own way. You know, a lot of the time, he kept saying that Vic was the one that was controlling him. Vic was the one that was stopping him from achieving utter greatness. But it was his stupidity

32:20KT: that got in the fucking way.

32:20Oti: Yeah. And he needed Vic to bail him out every single time. Oh, absolutely. Which was just ridiculous. And to think that he would even consider killing Vic,

32:31Oti: that was

32:31KT: What a just terrible plan. Yeah. That was a terrible fucking plan.

32:31Oti: And

32:37Oti: I think one of the things, if if Vic just pulls the trigger when he had Shane there Mhmm. Family aside Seasons. That was Seasons. Already killed a cop. So we know it's in his wheelhouse. Wow. You know? Shane in his family, yes, but then again, you know, it was all about survival with these guys.

32:58KT: Yeah. But I would I would argue not so. Yes, to a certain extent, but like you said, Vic and Shane went back years, and they had been through a lot together. So, yes, he would, you know, get rid of someone that's in his way, but not when it's someone that he has close ties with. And we saw that time and time, season and season again, where Shane would continue these colossal fuck ups, and Vic would always try and find a way to get not just Shane, but everyone out of it. Yeah.

33:32KT: And that was the downfall. And, you know, even if we just jump a little bit to Tavon's character, they they completely botched his poor character. The fact that, you know, Shane I I think for us to enjoy this show, we need to kind of omit how fucking racist Shane was. Oh, those are some stings, though, that are being said. Yeah.

33:59Oti: There were definitely That just made us look at each other in awe.

34:04KT: Yeah. Like, it's it's like you can't know these things unless you've heard it or you've said it before. Yep. But, you know, just just omitting that for a second, when him and Tavon get into a fight, he absolutely goes further than he should have with Tavon. Yep. So the fact that he got some sort of concussion and, you know, he pretty much flew through his windscreen.

34:28KT: And

34:30KT: that that moment, you know, it's also like Vic was telling him off, but you knew at the same time he was going to cover it up for Shane no matter what. Because it's family, baby. Because it is family. Unfortunately, it is family. But, yes, Shane was definitely greedy. And I think aside from Vic trying to use it for his family, Shane was the only one that actually used the stolen money. And he he bought a car for Mara. Yeah. Like, he was putting it in places that you could definitely notice that money going.

35:05KT: And I think it was later on with Kavanaugh, with Shane, and, know, he pretty much expended everything that he had. So if he had spent money on even lunch

35:17Oti: Where's the money coming from? Exactly.

35:20KT: Where is the golden goose and where is the faucet? Yeah. But oh, he yeah. He's definitely a character that got in the way. And but also at the same time, you know, even in our own lives, whether it's friends or family, you know, there's dead weight that we hold on to unfortunately.

35:38Oti: Yeah. And how how sad was that ending?

35:41KT: Yeah.

35:41Oti: Did you see that coming?

35:41KT: Do you mean with Shane? Yeah. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, but continue along the journey if you wanna be spoiled by us. You're talking about when Shane committed suicide.

35:53Oti: Yep. Did you think that he'd do a murder suicide sort of thing?

35:53KT: No.

35:58KT: I you know, it it was hinted at in the, you know, in the final seasons that, you know, the the conflict that he had within himself was becoming, you know, too strong for him to reconcile. So they they definitely painted a picture that he was suicidal, but it's definitely escalation for him to also take his child and Mara with him. Yeah. That was that was brutal. That was really brutal. But also at the same time, I don't think that it's surprising. It was definitely shocking. I think

36:34KT: more of the emotion that I felt was watching especially Claudette find them that way. Yeah. And you know even then in the scene before that you know Shane was at a corner store and there was a young girl there you know he was kind of flirting with that teenage girl and I'm like okay But it felt really somber, so we didn't really know where we were going. But to answer your question, no. I didn't know what was about to unfold. Yeah. Wow. Wow, indeed. And let's continue with our wow of Shane,

37:07KT: and let's talk about the ever eternal Curtis Lemansky.

37:11Oti: Lem, Lem, Lem, Lem, Lem. He's the one that had a conscience.

37:15KT: He's the one that had a conscience. Well, Ronnie might have had one, but we didn't care about him.

37:19Oti: Curtis had I wrote it could be suede either way depending on the side of the argument. Depending on the storyline.

37:19KT: But

37:25KT: yeah, Curtis Lemansky was definitely the heart. He was the pulse and he was the canary that that let Vic know when he went too far. Yeah. Oh, The Boys. The Boys. The Boys reference. Oti is my second wind. That will mean nothing or or maybe everything if you're nasty. Mhmm. But Lemansky was definitely the touch point in the unit. You know, there were times where he had to be, you know, encouraged to partake in the criminal proceedings. But when it made sense, it made sense to him. Where there was moral ambiguity,

38:09KT: that's where there were qualms. But especially when it had to do with innocent children, he was always ready to fight. Right? And that is it's always hard to lose the heart of the show. And the way that he was lost was in the most unforgivable manner. I would say the way that Lemansky died in The Shield was one of the most emotional deaths I've ever experienced on a TV show.

38:39Oti: Yeah. You you were really tearing up. The fact that he didn't even die immediately was even worse.

38:45KT: Yeah. Because it's like you you see the horror, you're witnessing the horror, but it hasn't ended yet. Yeah.

38:53Oti: Only for Shane to bloody find out later that Lem had nothing. He wasn't intending to give them up or anything.

39:00Oti: That's what just pushed Shane over the edge, like

39:00KT: But that's also another reason why he's not a good leader. There are other options. Some options might be just waiting, but for someone like Shane, that wasn't an option for him. But the way that Lemansky died was truly by friendship and the trust in people. And when Shane went back to his truck to go and get him the food, you knew something was gonna happen. Yeah. And it really is. It it is that it is that excruciating extension

39:37KT: of time where you just want it to end. And when he walked towards Lemansky and he gave him that burrito and he dropped the grenade on his lap and started to walk away, there was still time for Lemansky to, you know, interact with Shane. And that's what fucking got me. That is that is writing. That is something I won't recover from for a long time, but it it is all of the puppeteering.

40:10KT: It is all of the emotional pull that he had leading up to that moment. And the fact that, you know, by all accounts, Lemansky was a good guy. And it wasn't he he wasn't that sort of perfect character where nothing happened to him and he was really boring, but he proved time and time again that, you know, relative to the rest of them, he did have a moral code, and he did stand by it.

40:34Oti: Yeah. He did. He did. And and I think that's what people saw as a weakness, especially when it came to internal affairs and Kavanaugh. Oh, bloody hell. I hated Kavanaugh.

40:44KT: Think we all did.

40:48Oti: But he saw Lem as a weak spot and tried to to make him turn on against his family, the strike team. And we know how the strike team of have this sort of strong bond, family above all else Mhmm. Kind of mentality, and that was never gonna happen. Yeah. It was quite clear that despite the fact he even learned that Shane and

41:12Oti: and Vic killed a cop Yeah. He was still there. He he He didn't wanna be, but He he didn't want to be, still but he there. Mhmm. And it just goes to show you the kind of character Lem was. Yeah. He would eat him alive but he would still be there for his friends at the end of the day

41:12KT: oh absolutely

41:32KT: and I I think that's what that's if you're going to kill off a character make it count Mhmm. And that is absolutely, know, Lemansky was definitely the catalyst of, you know, the way the unit function and the way that Aceveda and also Claudette, you know, navigated within there as well. Speaking of, let's move on to what I call the main barn. Mhmm. So we have David Aceveda, Claudette Wyms, Holland Wagenbach, otherwise known as Dutch, Danni Sofer, and also Julien Lowe.

42:13Oti: Do you wanna go with Aceveda first?

42:15KT: Well, the interesting thing was that he wasn't even supposed to be a character that was going to last for a long time.

42:24Oti: Really?

42:24KT: And I think that actually, if you sit back and look at his storylines, it actually makes a lot of sense. They just fucking love Benito Martinez. Mhmm. So they just wanted to keep him in the show, dick pics and all. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's how much they fucking loved him. Okay. Let's talk about David Aceveda because we had fights at the start of watching The Shield because I saw through him straight away. You know? You saw him as a renegade wanting to help the community,

42:54KT: but I'm also, like, trying to remind you that he benefits from that as well. And he was always very political about the things that he did. He he wanted to strong-arm the strike unit, but also on many levels, the strike unit delivered, and they had the lowest, like, they had the lowest rates of crime. They had the highest, like, success rates in stats that he had no choice but to get into bed with Vic Mackey many times, mind you. But he he didn't have a backbone. I think he allowed himself to get manipulated

43:29KT: a lot. A lot of the time, he thinks that he's like the puppeteer. But then, like, you know, teenage girls are pretty much spinning rings around him. Mhmm. Like, he isn't as great as he thinks he is. And then we also see, you know, a journey into his past as well with his university girlfriend.

43:51Oti: Yeah.

43:53KT: So he's not necessarily innocent by stretches of the imagination.

43:57Oti: No. He's not. He's not. But, you know, I we had arguments in regards to Aceveda as a character because I felt at the end of the day he wanted to achieve something. Of course, it was all personal. We're humans, but he did want to do some good. At least he wanted he he battled to try and do it above board, you know, as much as he possibly could. And then we see him sort of get turned one eighty with the incident. Do you wanna tell us what the incident is? Friends and lovers.

44:30KT: There are many devices in which you can convey utter despair for a character of a TV show. And by God, Shawn Ryan, you definitely achieved more than you probably set out to achieve with David Aceveda and his character. He, you know, he was in a very vulnerable moment. And I didn't I didn't have any sort of shame for his character when he was forced, you know, to to, you know, engage in fellatio and there was video evidence for that. Yeah. Or maybe just photo evidence.

45:13KT: Because, you know, a gun was being pointed at his head and he he made it out of the situation the way that he could. Yep. And I definitely didn't place any shame in that. However, his reluctance to seek help after that incident and also the way his wife reacted was not helpful at all.

45:36Oti: You know, Al kept on telling you, just talk to your wife. Talk to your wife. Tell someone. Tell someone what happened. And the minute he tells the wife, the reaction Yeah. Just threw us left field completely.

45:50KT: She probably never kissed him again, to be fair.

45:50Oti: Probably not. She's disgusting. She was the she's

45:57Oti: she's even worse than fucking Mara, mate. Oh. That takes some fucking doing. That is some death battle calculations

46:04KT: you need to do there, my love.

46:07Oti: Yeah.

46:08KT: But Aceveda, like, you know, trauma aside, him as a person, he was very politically ambitious, but I do feel like he got a bit too big for his britches. He was very reminiscent of Stringer Bell in his ambition and and the you know, not aware of the restrictions that were placed on him. The the one of the one of the interesting things, I think it happened in season two, where they kind of had a, like, a episode that was set years in the past. Mhmm. I think there was a continuity error because

46:42KT: from what we understand, Aceveda was new, and Vic Mackey had been on the strike unit for years. But the way they had said it in the past was he had just started and everyone had just started it. It kinda contorted the storyline a little bit to me. But in general, Aceveda, he he was always for his own self interest, which I guess could be admirable in some senses. I would say more weasily.

47:10Oti: Mhmm.

47:11Oti: Fair enough, man.

47:11KT: Let's move on to Claudette. Another fun fact, Oti. Claudette's character was originally written for a man. Oh. Yeah. And when CCH Pounder actually took on the role, she made it clear to Shawn not to rewrite anything. So I think that definitely brings a different element to her character because I did have some qualms with Claudette. Not necessarily at the start of the series, but as time moved on. I do like that she was a take no shit, no nonsense sort of character.

47:50KT: But what was really interesting was there was a departure from who she was as a character as the series continued. And what I mean by that is in the very early episodes, she's talking to Aceveda, and Aceveda is getting really frustrated with Claudette because she doesn't seem to be making a fuss like everyone else is about Vic Mackey. And she says something to the effect of what he does isn't pretty, but also at the same time, it means that people can go out safe in the streets. Yep. And

48:23KT: that was a really interesting statement that it it it kind of it stuck with me through the rest of the series. But then Claudette became you know, she she had a boner for Vic Mackey, and she kept going after him. And I always recall back to that moment when she made that initial statement where she was pretty much indifferent to, you know, the violence he would inflict on gang members, for example. But then she cared too much. Yeah. Weirdly

48:51KT: so. Out of character so.

48:51Oti: Yeah. Absolutely. And it it just became a problem where everything she did was to stick it up to Vic Mackey.

48:51KT: Yeah. Absolutely.

48:51Oti: I'm like, when did this change? When did this all become she never really cared about ambition. She was happy to post along.

48:51KT: Yeah. But

48:51Oti: She was good at what she did. She didn't When they dangled the carrot right in front of her, she became power hungry.

49:16KT: She became obsessive with Vic or taking down Vic and the wanna it was first offered to her, she said no initially. And then randomly, she decided that she wanted this ambition. Like, she was good at what she did, and she was fine with that. And then out of nowhere, she decided she wanted to care about it. Yeah. Yeah. She became the bloody Trudy Beekman of this. Trudy, that's another Archer reference. Speaking of Trudy Beekman, let's talk a bit about Dutch.

49:43Oti: I wanted more from Dutch.

49:45KT: I wanted less from Dutch.

49:45Oti: We

49:48Oti: know he's clever. He has his inti instincts. He goes with his gut. I'm all for that. We know he he thinks himself to be better than everyone else in the bloody room. Fair enough. Yeah. If he can show the results,

50:03Oti: which in some cases, did.

50:03KT: What does results mean? Writing on a whiteboard, smart and dumb? What is this? He caught a serial killer when everyone else was making fun of him. But he also falsely accused a lot of people.

50:17Oti: You get some wizards.

50:19KT: He also pursued the mother of some rampant kid.

50:24Oti: Yeah. He became shady. He became shady ass. And the fact that I think one of the biggest qualms with Dutch or at least the storyline was he strangled a cat, and we saw he got off on that. Yeah. What happened next? Where did these whole feelings go?

50:41KT: One doesn't fucking strangle a cat, then bam, it's gone. It just went away. He prayed the serial killer away.

50:48Oti: Dutch was meant to be the worst person in the police

50:52Oti: department.

50:52KT: Actually, yeah. Because I did say at the start of the episode that this is an allegoric symbolism of shitty people meeting a shitty demise, but that's kind of she he kind of did just fine, actually. Dodged just fine. But it's interesting because it was a it was a suspect mentioning,

51:11KT: you know, wanting to see the life leave if someone dies. And that's why he went and did it to the cat, and then he went and got another cat. And it's like, you can't introduce shit like that and never address it again. And it was pretty early in the season as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, four, five seasons. We're just waiting for him to strangle someone. We just wanted to see where this escalates to. Yeah.

51:32Oti: And what else can rather than just Dutch falling into the background and caring and acting like a father to Claudette, you know? I didn't want that. And getting a cleaner for her as well. Yeah. Like, just just give

51:44Oti: us the character progression you promised.

51:44KT: They had a they had a buddy buddy dynamic, and then I think they just, like it completely distorted into, like, a a son mother Yeah. Sort of relationship. I do think it's interesting. In one of the earlier episodes, they were mentioning why is there so many serial killers in California? And, you know, it pretty much paraphrase into, you know, everyone wants to be famous.

52:07Oti: Yep.

52:08KT: There was there was actually quite a lot of interesting, you know, undertones to Dutch's character, which I thought would have been quite interesting to explore. He was like Holden Ford, but less. Maybe like a Toyota Corolla. But yeah. So, yeah, Dutch bothered me a lot because his straight white man mediocreness, it just it flooded the whole scene. Like, literally, do you remember the flood? The great flood of The Shield? I remember the flood. That was fucking disgusting.

52:44KT: Alright. Let's talk about the tag team Danni Sofer and Julien.

52:44Oti: Danni is the stick that is used as a fucking battering ram. She gets the short end of the stick on so many occasions to the point where you feel that, come on now. If anyone was to go through this, you know, fucking where they're standing up after that.

52:44KT: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, there was a lot that happened in the early seasons

53:07KT: where there was, like, a neighbor there was a neighbor dispute between, like, a white American lady and a Muslim man. And, you know, unfortunately, events unfolded, and she had to shoot the man. And what unfolded from that was, you know, her getting calls that one of her parents died. She was getting you know, she her her car was being smashed, and everything in her life was being turned upside down. And, also, at the same time, her life wasn't being fleshed out either.

53:37KT: And then she randomly just became pregnant with, you know, Vic Mackey's baby. She definitely deserved more. And like you said, she was the stick, but then she was the one that got punished and not the people that were supposed to get punished. Yep. Yep. Unfortunately. But, yeah, I I just definitely wanna lay accolades because she was a great character. I love how she always tried to look after people, not in a, like, in a motherly sort of way. She was very no nonsense, especially when it came to Tina, the poster girl of

54:10KT: the force, even with Julien.

54:10Oti: Even with Julien. At least she was there with Julien. She understood Julien for a bit. And, you know, with Julien's struggle and all, I think I don't know. I had a problem with Julien as a character in so many ways in that. They really never really addressed his problems because as if it's all been fixed already.

54:32Oti: You know? Yeah. That, oh, I went to a praying camp and that was fixed. I'm no longer that. Yeah. And then I'm married with my wife and they just got swept under the rug. Yeah. So what what's the message they're trying to send here? What's the end? What's the storyline? Because it was insinuated that there's a struggle with with Danni keep on telling, you know Yeah. Julien, hey. You wanna talk about this? Are you sure you wanna marry? Are sure you want kids with this woman? Mhmm. But we don't get any sort of information

55:03Oti: out of that at all. It just Yeah. It's just Julien, and we know what's happening in the background. It's up to our imaginations, and I I don't think that's fair.

55:03KT: Well, you know, accepting your own sexuality and accepting how people

55:16KT: accept or reject your sexuality is definitely something that isn't easy. And, you know, it is it is interesting to see a character's journey through that. But then we also see some very upsetting moments with Julien and him being very extremely excessively violent to transgender characters on the show. So it's like you wanna feel sorry for him, but also at the same time, you're inflicting a lot of pain on other people Yeah. As well. And you're denying them their right to live in their truth. Yep.

55:49KT: And a lot of it, a hundred and a million percent of it is projection because he doesn't feel right in who he is. Okay. The next cluster I have is called the backbarn.

55:49Oti: Backbarns.

55:49KT: So it's people that were associated with the barn, but not necessarily in the front barn. They're the back barn. We have Monica Rawling, our Glenn Close. Tina, she probably doesn't need as much airtime. Steve Billings. And Armando, who is Pena, who we've already kind of talked about.

56:22Oti: Yeah. So Rawling was a straight shooter. How about? I love that about her. She knew what she wanted to do. She knew the stats were supposed to go down, but her policies, man, she did not want to think about what her policy would do to the community. It's one thing to raise money for the police department. It's another thing to not even care about the families you're living out to on the streets.

56:43KT: That policy was fucked up, man. I don't know if it was a matter of writing, but it was weird because when she came on, she was the anti Aceveda. Right? She was the exact opposite. She was fine for things to get done as long as it got done. Right? So that's why there was, like, an understanding between her and Vic Mackey. And then somewhere along the way, she decided that that wasn't the case, or the writing decided that that wasn't the case.

57:12Oti: No. I think she wasn't alright with things being done heavy handedly. Mhmm. Don't go too far was our policy.

57:21KT: I'll give you boundaries,

57:23Oti: but not don't go beyond that. Okay. So when I'm I'm I I was fine with that. I didn't think there was any sort of flaw in that writing, but I thought, okay. Cool. I had more qualms in the fact that she did not want to see what her policy was doing and what it was an opportunity for us, for a lot of people out there who would probably support a policy like this Mhmm. To get to see the effects, to get to see the effects of repossessing

57:49Oti: someone's home because you think it's drug money when they have no connection other than just being a bloody parent Yeah. To to to to someone who's made mistakes. So, you know, I don't know. It was just I I felt away about it. Yeah. Julien felt away about it. All the fucking black characters felt a way about it. So I just wanted it to be a learning opportunity for a lot of those other characters is all. I'm saying.

57:49KT: Absolutely. And, you know, even the fact that she

58:20KT: got herself a house in these sort of neighborhoods as well. And, you know, Vic Mackey did try to protect her and try to have patrols there as well. But, yeah, it was definitely interesting. She was an interesting contrast to have, especially after Aceveda. But it's like, he I I get that they loved him and they wanted to keep Benito around, but it's like, didn't you have a job to do? He was always at the barn. Like, even when he left. Let's move to what I call the villains. We have assistant chief Ben Gilroy.

58:54KT: What a what a demise for that fella. Jon Kavanaugh, Antwon Mitchell,

59:00KT: and also Kern Little.

59:00Oti: Ben Gilroy. Gilroy was Vic's guy, man. You know? Yeah. You need this done. You need this swept under the rug. He'd do it. He was a typical suit. Yeah. Yeah. So his friendship with Vic was super symbiotic, and both of them benefited from each other's actions and misdeeds. Oh, absolutely. So when Gilroy gets pushed to the limit where he can no longer even defend Vic's action and backs out Yeah. Then you know you're crossing a line, mate. Vic, you're going too far.

59:33Oti: That was one of the telltale signs.

59:33KT: Or you didn't stand to benefit,

59:38KT: Gilroy.

59:38Oti: I don't think it was that. It was just more that once you start defending someone too much for all the shit they do, that shit starts to stick on you.

59:38KT: No. But I think at the same time, people are forgetting how much Vic did

59:50KT: as well.

59:50Oti: Man, you could you could throw all the stats out there, but there are complaints all over. And

59:50KT: Well, dirty is dirty, but I'm saying Vic Mackey did a lot for the people that, you know, acknowledging him in the shadows and pretending they don't acknowledge him in light. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

59:50Oti: Agreed.

59:50KT: And Gilroy definitely benefited from that, and he was smart to have a delineation with that. Like, if I don't need to know, don't fucking tell me.

60:18KT: If if it's going to become a problem, then then give me a heads up, but don't explicitly tell me what you did or what you didn't.

60:26Oti: Plausible deniability

60:27Oti: and all.

60:27KT: Exactly. Absolutely. And I think we all knew, like, his fate being on some beach in Mexico eating rice and beans, I think was the quote. Yeah. Never gonna happen. Yeah.

60:27Oti: There are people you can see in their character,

60:43Oti: and even just their faces. Yeah. These people will never just eat rice and beans for the rest of their lives and be happy. You'll need at least, like, a 100 different varieties of beans, not just the god. I went to boarding school, and the rice and beans day, that was the best meal because you could do a lot without rice and beans. Okay. We had assortment of spices Okay. That we'd add to the rice and beans, and that would make it the best thing ever.

61:10Oti: Compared to the shit we were being served, rice and beans was the shit. So if I was to run away, mate, I would live on that rice and beans.

61:19KT: So you're saying he just he rice and beans was okay. He just went to the wrong country.

61:24Oti: No. No. No. No. Not just the wrong country. Like, you can tell that in a in a person, they would never be able to live off that regardless of where they live. Yeah. You need to go through some struggle in your life to be able to live off rice and beans for the rest of your life. Rice, beans, and beer.

61:40KT: Rice, beans, and beer. Yeah.

61:42Oti: That's our podcast right there.

61:44KT: Nice. I love that. Please sponsor us if you have shares in rice, beans, and or beer. Mhmm. Yeah. But that I think that's enough about Gilroy. But he will he's definitely the classic suit that that was fine with people doing things in the shadows. Yeah. Let's talk about Kavanaugh. We kind of touched on him a little bit, but he definitely becomes, you know, the the anti Mackey ready to take him down.

62:14Oti: Yeah. He he starts off trying to, you know, bend the line here and there, but he goes he crosses the line when he finds out or at least when Vic tells him that I slept with your wife. And that just pushes him over the edge. Yeah. And he goes crazy. Yeah. He goes crazy to to the point of going to Vic's wife and trying to reenact similar situation

62:39Oti: as what had transpired before.

62:39KT: But at least take some accountability. I hate that, like, he went so far, too far. Like, if you're a good person, you definitely went way too far. But at least take accountability for all of the shitty things that you did. He kept blaming Mackey for everything that he did. And it's like, no. You're a grown human, and you made these decisions.

63:03Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Every single thing that happened, it was Vic. Yeah. It was the classic. You know? Monster. That's an anime reference. It was just one of those things like, just pull your head out of your fucking ass. Yeah. If if if he thought he was intelligent. He was too smart.

63:24KT: He thought he was too fucking smart for his own good. He just thought like, I think he was that shiny new girlfriend that thought that all of the exes were crazy without realizing that he's also crazy as well. Like, that was the problem of him. Speaking of, Shawn Ryan started to notice that people weren't sure whether they wanted Vic Mackey to get caught or not. So that's why Kavanaugh was introduced into the storyline to show, like, a sort of demise for Vic Mackey. And he was surprised that people were actually rooting against Kavanaugh

64:00KT: for, you know, catching Vic. Because Kavanaugh's crap. I think if he had met his foe and, you know, as, like, a strategic chess game, they were a match for each other, it would have been tantalizing

64:13KT: to see that, you know, tit for tit, tat for tat, go on.

64:13Oti: But he just thought, mate, no criminal can be as smart or smarter than I am. Yeah. To the point where Aceveda is fucking telling him, don't underestimate, Vic. You don't know what you're getting yourself into. Hurt Aceveda to even say that. Yeah. Don't don't underestimate. I made the same mistakes. Don't do that. But he didn't listen. He just thought, hey, my shit don't stink and I'm gonna catch this guy. I'm

64:44Oti: just glad it ended the way it did for him at least. But it's like okay.

64:49KT: So if we're talking about from his point of view, he saw himself as a good guy. Right? Mhmm. But how much do you step into the murky, you know, the murky waters of good and bad before you become the very thing you're trying to stop? Yeah. He also had way more resources than Vic had, and he was still on the back foot every single time. You know even to the point where he got kicked off the case

65:20KT: and then he like sweet talked his way back into the case like he was afforded way too many opportunities but he was still on the back foot in every single instance

65:29Oti: yeah Once you started planting evidence, you know you're just losing now.

65:34KT: It's desperate and it's disgusting and it's like, don't even bother. Yeah. Starting to throw Hail Marys and you try and catch a criminal. Yeah. You just know you're not well equipped to do that. And, you know, exactly, to the point of going to visit Corrine and, you know, being as creepy as he wanted to be. You know, those creep tendencies, can't blame on Vic Mackey.

65:57Oti: Yeah. He he was a creep. He just needed an excuse is all. Exactly.

66:02KT: Let's finish off with the Mackeys.

66:06Oti: Mhmm.

66:08KT: In every sense of the word, in in some 1% sense of the word, I guess you could call Vic Mackey a family man. You know? As much as he tried to balance everything out, he did care about his family. Mhmm. I also thought it was quite interesting that he was very he was very manipulative, especially to the strike team. He always found a way to get them to toe the line, but he never used that manipulation on Corrine, which I thought was very interesting.

66:38KT: Maybe in his world, that's like a pure sort of love because he never tried to emotionally manipulate Corrine, which, hey, we're all damaged goods. I thought that was beautiful. It was beautiful.

66:52Oti: Well, man, there's nothing that I could say or sit here and say that Corrine was flawed in any way. She had her problems. But anyone in that situation would handle all this the same pretty much way that she did. She didn't have she she tried to lift herself up. She she went back to to work as a nurse. Yeah. She did everything she could possibly do Yeah. To keep her family, you know, stable financial situation

67:24Oti: and to live a life.

67:24KT: You know what I also really appreciated that is very rare, even in like shows in 2020 was Corrine was struggling mentally and she verbalized that. Yeah. That is very rare in any sort of TV show. Even in the woke sort of TV shows that you wanna talk about. But, you know, like, she'll she'll mention to Vic, can you please take the kids for the weekend? I need a break. And I found that very, very refreshing. I do feel bad that Skyler didn't get that same sort of reprieve.

67:58KT: Does your neck

67:58Oti: Skyler who?

67:58KT: Does your neck hurt from that whiplash?

68:02Oti: No, man. Skyler's just trash as well. You're trash.

68:08KT: Corrine Mackey, the actress that plays Corrine Mackey is actually Shawn Ryan's real wife. Oh, really? Yeah. And their son actually features in the show from season two onwards. Nice. Yeah. So I I guess it also helps on set to have that sort of familial tie. Speaking of familial ties, the actress who plays Cassidy is actually a baby Chiklis.

68:32Oti: Really?

68:33KT: She's a daughter Chiklis.

68:36Oti: Oh my god. Mind blown. They kinda look alike, actually. They kind of do. It is it is uncanny.

68:42KT: Oh, wow. Look at that. Yeah. Because I started reading the facts before we had finished the show and I couldn't unsee it. Baby Chiklis. It's a baby Chiklis. Mhmm. But there you have it, friends and lovers. That is the FX series of The Shield. I'm glad I found a place to insert my chaotic yelling for 88 episodes. I'll need to find somewhere else to do my yelling randomly. But thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this journey. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference,

69:22KT: Oti.

69:22Oti: If you wanna follow Shane along as a bad guy in Justified, do so, and you'll get to see Timothy Olyphant, who's fucking amazing. It's a great show, and you'll love it.

69:22KT: Timmy Elephant?

69:22Oti: Timmy Elephant is in this.

69:39KT: Nice. And I will reference The Wire. Mhmm. If you wanna follow us on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Apple Podcasts if you like to leave a rating and a review, and we'll see you guys next week. See you.