Snowfall – Alton Ego

Full transcript of Snowfall – Alton Ego.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and this is a continuation episode because we've already covered the first three seasons of Snowfall friends and lovers. So make sure you go and check out that episode beforehand and also make sure you're caught up on season four because we are splooshy and we're spoilery and we're gonna get straight into it. Also in the love and legacy of John Singleton, we've also covered Baby Boy. So feel free to go and check out that episode if you haven't already. Let's get on with the show.

0:56KT: Welcome back friends and lovers to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:56Oti: And Oti.

0:56KT: Welcome to the city of Sinner and Saints where ambition is paid in the sacrifice of your loved ones.

1:08Oti: Woo hoo. Yikes.

1:10KT: Join us as we expand operations with the FX show Snowfall season four this week. Wow. Woo hoo hoo. We said spoilers, watch out for your parents, watch out for your best friends, watch out for everybody. This show was created by John Singleton, Eric Amadio, and Dave Andron. There was quite a whole crew that have come back from previous seasons of Snowfall in way of writing as well as directing.

1:42KT: The Pamela Anderson Panini's hit at around episode four of this season. And it's only because I love to keep myself in the world, so I kept watching interviews and videos. Otherwise, you wouldn't have even noticed the quality of quality. This goes on the mantle piece of quality season fours with Insecure. Yeah, it does. Right? Season four premiered in February 2021. It is on FX, also on Hulu as well. Top billing class, we have Oti. Yeah. KT's up and coming. Continue to sing the phrases how dare you.

2:20KT: My whole lifetime was made watching Damson Idris and Daniel Kaluuya Hallelujah on Instagram together. I don't need to see anything else in my life Mhmm. To be honest. Carter Hudson as well as Sergio Peris-Mencheta.

2:35Oti: Mhmm.

2:36KT: Alright. Oti, let's get into just general overall feelings for season four. We did say quite a lot in the fact that this has completely continued the qualitaire and raised it in ways that we weren't even anticipating. So feel free to give your general feelings of season four. Again, we're splooshy, we're delicious, we're tantalizing, we're Spartacus, Jupiter's cock of it all. So feel free to spoil it as well. And we're going to get into all of the characters specifically focusing on season four.

3:11Oti: I did not expect what I watched. Right. You know, at the end of season three, I think there was some trepidation on my part on whether or not season four will be able to hit the heights that the first two seasons did and part of season three. But wow. Boy, was I surprised. Yeah. And the fact that you know? And we've talked about the sort of shows like this going on for a bit of time and thinking that they're gonna slide off. But to captivate our attention and our interest and to continually chuck episodes

3:44Oti: that just connect with us in such a deeper level is something to behold. And for me, it makes me so happy to be able to John Singleton had a dream. He did this. And to see these guys take over their button and just run with it the same way without diminished quality. Yeah. Fucking hell, man. That's high praise.

4:05KT: Yeah. Absolutely. And every episode of season four was wholly encapsulated and self contained. It was as if that episode was going to be the season finale. It was tantalizing. It built attention, and there was a crescendo at every episode of season four. I cannot stress enough

4:25KT: how beautifully crafted this season was.

4:25Oti: It was. It was. And the fact that we we always come back to, do you care about the characters? Yeah. We are completely bought into this in this I

4:39KT: am right next to El Oso in the tunnel. Oh, for sure. And

4:44Oti: every single decision Yeah. Be it bad or otherwise. Yeah. We we we think of repercussions. What will be the domino effect? What will Leon do? What will will Leon and and and and Franklin get back together? Because they need each other. There there's a symbiotic nature of their dynamic. Exactly. And you know when we're talking about Vikings and, you know, we've grown to love the characters for such a long time. Yeah. And when you have flash flashbacks of Ragnar or even baby Bjorn, you know, the feelings. Yeah. It's the same thing here.

5:17KT: That's why, you know, I I do love a one night stand with a film, but give me TV shows every time. Mhmm. Because there is nothing cat that can spank an ass harder and sploosh you splooshier

5:30Oti: than a TV show. Now you know my Halloween costume.

5:34KT: Oh, am I Wanda in your Oti vision? Yep. That's how we get down friends and lovers. Yeah. But this this show, strength to strength, and I I do hope that everyone does check it out because I know you guys are super nasty and you'll listen to it because we know the Pea Valley numbers are there and we hope everyone is watching our Pussy Valleys. But in regards to Snowfall specifically, there was so much dutiful groundwork that was laid in season one in particular that is making season four so.

6:11KT: You know, it it can't be as strong as it is in season four if it didn't have a firm Foundation. And we love a foundation in this household. Don't we, Oti? It is absolutely great. And we did say that it did it did waver for us in particular, you know, in the last half of season three, but it absolutely ramped up and exceeded all expectations.

6:36Oti: Agreed. And, you know, like, it's rare. Mhmm. Especially, you know, for someone like me who watches a lot a lot of shit, it's rare for show on the shit.

6:48KT: It's rare for a show to cum so strongly like the way Snowfall did in season four particularly. Yeah. And I think also at the same time, even most recently in our Belly episode, rest in love and peace and power DMX, you know, stories about the origins of drugs or building wealth from drug dealing is not new. Right? We have so many hours of content and most deservedly so on the podcast in regards to The Wire. Right? And I'm not having a conversation on what's better, The Wire or Snowfall. I'm not having that conversation.

7:24KT: They both deserve to give all of our love and accolades. I'm not having that conversation. But, you know, we even talk about 4 Blocks. I'm holding the banner for 4 Blocks. Even Narcos, for example, like it's not new to have stories building wealth of drug dealing, whether it's fictitiously or whether it's genuine stories, Right? So that's not new. But like you said, it always brings home that emotional resonance. And let's get straight into the protagonist of this show, Franklin Saint. I can't think of a character, at least in in in recent memory,

8:05KT: that I give so many graces for. There was nothing that Franklin did. Maybe for a second, I would be a bit shocked, but there was nothing that Franklin would do that I wouldn't eventually mental gymnastics myself to make myself feel okay about.

8:22Oti: I get that. I think to me, Franklin, when I see him and I see him really trying to outsmart everyone, I think he he's too smart for his own good. I think sometimes he overthinks things, and he tries to be half by a you know, smart too smart by a half. Mhmm. And a lot of the things that, you know, you get the conflicts with with Skully or or Manboy. Yeah. You know, there's a there's a fundamental knowledge

8:50Oti: in in being on the streets and how things operate on the street that are completely different, and you can't really get that

8:56Oti: unless you're part of that.

8:56KT: But I think at the same time, Franklin is at least aware of what the rules of the street are. He just doesn't respect it. It's not that he's not street smart. He just he just thinks it's beneath him.

9:13Oti: Cool. But it's it's the same old old argument. You know? Stringer trying to to turn, you know, profitable running by with politicians or whatever. Yes. You're always gonna hit a brick wall. Yeah. And we I think this season depicted the gap there was Mhmm. And just how much he really needed Leon. They both needed each other. True. They both needed each other. They both needed each other. But more so, since you're focusing on Franklin, there was still that gap.

9:44Oti: You know, he could have his he could have his uncle there, but at the end of it, that understanding that he had with Leon. Yeah. You know, it's hard to replicate. We saw that gap really exposed in this. Because there was advice that Leon would be able to give Franklin that Franklin just didn't wasn't aware of.

9:44KT: Something that's very interesting about Franklin's character is,

10:05KT: you know, he's that kid that will come to a maths test with a graphic calculator while everyone else has an abacus. He's that sort of kid. Right? And no. It was interesting because Teddy was trying to school him on CIA operations. CIA operations, we'll talk about another day. But he was talking about, you know, strategic militant deployments. Right? And Franklin was trying to find ways to deploy that on the streets. Yeah. Streets are fucking messy, man. I don't I don't know about what the CIA was fighting, but they didn't have Skully.

10:42KT: They weren't up against Skully. So Franklin was interesting because he was trying to apply strategies that weren't fit for purpose.

10:52Oti: Yeah. We get to see how that affects everything

10:55KT: Yeah.

10:57Oti: And the sort of effect it has on everyone because it keeps on chipping at each and every relationship that he has. Yeah. But Jerome and Louie Mhmm. You know, we get to see how it affects everyone. And he's sort of arm's length approach to everyone and thinking that he knows best for everyone. We we get to see how that affects

11:16Oti: we get to see how it affects the family as

11:16KT: Well, I did say I've got a lot of graces for Franklin, and I guess this is where we're seeing it come out. No one no. But he also in his Hamlet soliloquy said, I'm taking all the risk. No one's taking all the risk that I've taken.

11:33Oti: That's not that's not true though. That's not true.

11:33KT: Yeah. But like, anyone else no one else is dealing with Avi, are they?

11:33Oti: Yeah. But Jerome is out on the street. Louie is out on the street. Leon is riding his own block somewhere else. But they're interchangeable,

11:49Oti: unfortunately.

11:49KT: No. No. No. Franklin is really at at the heads of this. He is the epicenter of this operation.

11:59Oti: Yeah. But at the end of it, he still has the protection of the CIA. The rest of the group is pretty much expendable. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. So how is that a good thing?

12:10KT: No. I'm just because you're saying how dare you? No. Because you were saying that he kept, like, specifically Jerome and Louie at arm's length. But I'm saying the reason why he did that was to insulate them because no one was taking as much risk as he was to expand these operations.

12:10Oti: Nah. He just thought he knew better. That's the simple fact for me. I said, I just think he thought he knew better, and he didn't need to involve the plebs in it. We watch on different layers, you fucking plebs.

12:42Oti: That's why, you know, and that's why you thought you know, I had when I was thinking critically, at least when you jump into the last episode where Jerome and Louie Yeah. Want to run their own thing. And at the time, I was like,

12:57Oti: that's out of the blue, but it's fucking not.

12:57KT: No. I feel like that was a writing qualm that I didn't care for.

13:03Oti: I didn't care for. How much tax are you gonna give Franklin?

13:06KT: That's all the tax that I have for this financial period. No. But let's talk broad optics in regards to Franklin's character, his actual sense of self and his sense of, or maybe you would argue lack of morals. So, you know, he's doing very questionable things. He's keeping people out of the loop, especially those close to him. There's talks of gentrifying the neighborhood. Right? You know, that old chestnut. And, you know, Cissy has it in her mind that she's doing

13:39KT: dutiful work, which I guess is is relative and we can come to that in a second. But essentially, Franklin appeals to a bookstore, which he already seemed to have a relationship with seasons earlier, which makes it even more hurtful and gross. But in any case, he convinces them to be a part of their corporation so that they can keep their store only to, you know, at the back of their hand, sell it. Yeah. Thoughts?

14:08Oti: I think that's when I thought well, that's when I saw Franklin as completely gone,

14:14Oti: rogue on, You breaking didn't care for his justification saying at No least justification. At least you won't at least you got money instead of not getting anything. That's a family business. They probably had plans of how they give it to their grand kid or some shit.

14:14KT: But we talked okay, friends and lovers. If you were following us in this space time continuum, we recently did Concrete Cowboy. Did you not say that gentrification is inevitable, so you should be sustainable in your approach to it.

14:44Oti: That does not sound like me.

14:47KT: Yeah. Because it's intelligible. That's why, motherfucker.

14:52Oti: What I mean is we see Franklin completely you know, those season one Franklin, there's some honesty to him. He Naivete. Yeah. Mixed with naivete. I I I accept that, but he cares. We see him rolling down the street, seeing the drugs, how the drugs affect people, and he was torn. Your best friend, Andre. He was fucking torn. Cut back to season four. He does not give a shit. Heavy is the crown, my love. Heavy is the crown that stampeth on other people. Okay.

15:28KT: White Tiger.

15:30KT: Go and listen to our White Tiger episode as well, friends and lovers.

15:30Oti: Hard. It's hard for me to really sit here and think that Franklin is really doing this for the better of the community because he does not give a fuck about the community. And that's why we get to see his dad

15:43Oti: feeling like he needed to do something.

15:43KT: Okay. Let's get into let's get into Franklin and Alton right now because you wanna go there. I went there. I went there. Can you present your arguments, mate? You sure you can stay there? Okay. One of I guess it was a simmering boil. One of the simmering boils that we've had that came to realization in season four was the relationship and the fragmenting of the relationship between Franklin and his father, Alton. There is a lot to say

16:23KT: about them too, and I'm not sure how you wanna tackle it, but Alton is fucking shit.

16:23Oti: He's not.

16:23KT: He is. Alright. Okay. Alright. Hold on, Oti, my Concrete Cowboy. Let's get into this. We meet Alton or we have periphery of Alton in the Snowfall series as being the alcoholic father that stepped out on Cissy and Franklin. Mhmm. I rest my case, your honor. That's the whole argument.

16:23Oti: That is completely null and void.

16:23KT: Okay. So we we get more of a context in regards to Alton that he was part of the Black Panther party.

17:06KT: Even when we're introduced to Irene Abe later on in season four, you know, there's talk of the chairman Fred Hampton and how Alton did a lot of dutiful work, and he was for the cause. Also very late at the end of the season, we have flashbacks specifically in regards to Franklin and Alton, and how Alton is encouraging Franklin and is fine with him not singing the national anthem. So we have these moments. I guess, I'm not saying, I don't know about the storytelling style because I feel like it was forcing us to feel away.

17:47KT: If you kind of felt an affinity towards Alton, then this was going to completely tip you over like Oti is saying, because you're seeing him be that father and be a man of morals and what he stands for. However, everything that the family and the household has is in credit to Franklin. Let's not have the debate about systemic and moral righteousness in regards to drug dealing because I refuse to do it because there's a whole class element to it, and I refuse to do it. He, 4 Blocks,

18:31KT: and eventually when we do Narcos and Gomorrah. Okay? I'm not having a a morality discussion in regards to drug dealing or a systemic one because it's all enraptured in class. Hold up. Hold up. Pull back and rewind me. Alright, Oti Lemar. We see Alton

18:48Oti: clearly of who he is as a person and the morals he holds for what he fought for and for what he tried to get and what really drained him during his tumultuous time when he had stepped out. Yep. You know, he's a vet as well. Yeah. This is a guy that's done it all. Yeah. So he's seeing the same community he tried to protect with the Black Panther Party Mhmm. Big killed. We saw the guy that went to his shelter was a kid. He died. All Franklin's

19:21Oti: drugs.

19:21KT: Hold up. Hold up. Pull it back and rewind. Who funded that fucking shelter?

19:26Oti: Franklin? Yeah. He's not saying that your drugs are are kill well, he said drugs are killing your community. Yeah. There's a point where you look at where you've gotten, you have all the money that you need, you can fucking pull out. You can pull out. You don't need to to go the whole yard.

19:45KT: The Longest Yard. Yeah. Will we ever cover that?

19:49Oti: Of course, we will.

19:51KT: That's gonna be immortalized unless you edit that out. I'm just saying. But no. It's to walk a path and dare I partake in a brief moment of toxic masculinity, for Alton to walk the path of it being his own man, he needed to allow Franklin to do the same thing. He completely cut his limbs off and threw him to the CIA.

20:17Oti: He was naive. He thought that it they won't react the way they did. Come on, man. But he saw his he was there when the Black Panther Party was being taken down, man by man by the CIA. Yeah. He knew Franklin will not survive this in the long run. When this gets out, it'll be a target on Franklin's back. You either get out while you're on top or you don't.

20:41KT: But what you're not understanding is, and this is a prompt friends and lovers to go and listen to our Judas and the Messiah. I did not misspeak as professor Oti said, black is redundant, Judas and the Messiah. But? No one man in the opposition that is being targeted can take down a system.

21:01KT: Do you not understand that?

21:01Oti: You can raise awareness. You can raise you can do something about it. Then he was tired on sitting on his laurels.

21:01KT: Specifically in Snowfall,

21:10KT: no one man as in Alton could take down the CIA. That was not feasible. So everything he was doing was harming, willfully harming his son and his wife and his family. That's what you don't understand. It's unfucking fair, but also Alton's been around to know that he cannot he cannot stop the forces that are in place. And let's talk about it because we already said spoilers. Let's come to the end of the season. I wanna close out this Alton arc right now. Okay? A lot happened, especially in the final sort of episodes

21:51KT: in season four, but we're particularly focusing on Alton. The writing was on the wall. Right? Once Irene Abe died, he went onto the radio and it was pretty much like a suicide mission. He he's like, I'm going to say the names. He even said Teddy's name, I'm pretty sure. And he said, I'm going to come back and bring some more information. Locked and loaded, like he wasn't tentative about that shit. So if you wanna admire that, fine. Right? So we have a standoff between Teddy, Franklin, and Alton. Right? And Cissy, very lovely, very dutifully

22:27KT: gets in the middle of it all. Promises Teddy that they're just going to leave and never come back. They've got passports, they're going to leave and never come back. Cut to one of the final scenes in season four, where we have Alton thinking that Cissy has come back from the market. Lo and behold, surprise to no one except for Alton, it was Teddy. I wanna talk about that scene. We saw it coming. Why didn't he? Why was he so surprised? That's what I didn't understand. You like, you made your choices.

23:02KT: You're aware of how things work, and you've made peace with that choice. Why was it confusing to you that Teddy would show up?

23:02Oti: Sometimes it's good to believe in the greater good.

23:15Oti: That something, somewhere, whatever action or whatever how small you are, that your little miniscule action would affect be it even a small

23:25Oti: cog in a machine.

23:25KT: Even if

23:25Oti: Would make a change.

23:25KT: Okay. But even if it made a miniscule change, is that

23:31KT: equating to the life of your son and your wife?

23:31Oti: He was ready to give himself up. He was ready to give his life up for the cause.

23:31KT: There was proximity shrapnel, my love.

23:31Oti: There was, but Franklin was beyond saving. He's completely gone. Even Heisenberg, like, he's in Heisenberg territory by now.

23:31KT: Excuse me. I'm KT The Fray, and I'll tell you how to save a life.

23:31Oti: How dare you? And it's the same thing. You know? You said that he he he's naive and he couldn't understand. Should have known better that he couldn't change anything.

24:01Oti: But it's the same thing that we all we're always told. You know? When when Kenya was fighting for independence with our spears, were facing an army with soldiers with guns and

24:12Oti: and whatever. They were told you're not gonna make a fucking difference, but that didn't stop anyone. That didn't stop the Maji Maji rebellion going with their purified water, facing guns and getting slaughtered. It's about doing something and standing up for what you believe in and doing what's right. And for this, I will not hold out on in any sort of bad light because he thought he was doing it for the greater good for the community that he tried to protect and seeing it being degraded into some sort of CIA playhouse,

24:41Oti: you know, keep the black people there? Nah, man. Nah. And it's the same thing when we're talking about District 9. It's to sort of give those prawns some some cat, some cat food, you know? Get them addicted to some shit. Control them that way.

24:41KT: You know what? You recently brought up African dictators in Belly, and now you're talking about African warriors. Where am I supposed to go from there, mate?

24:41Oti: I'm just saying, there's there's some nuance level to Alton's shit. He's not just coming to this saying,

25:10Oti: oh, mate.

25:10KT: Is Alton Kenyan?

25:12Oti: He is. His real name is Altony, mate. You

25:21Oti: know,

25:23Oti: far be it from me to to say his motives or whatever it from you. Not far be it. Close be it. But looking at Alton and his actions, I cannot fault him one bit. I think anyone who really did hold held his community close or see people die for just baseless shit, especially when they've already got all the money they need. And if there was just to escape to some remote country to hide from the CIA, regardless of how folly that might be,

25:53Oti: why not just give it a chance? You know? And that's why I think Franklin is so set to be this Heisenberg character in this that

25:53KT: Why are you giving so much accountability to Franklin and not Alton? That's what I'm not understanding. What you don't understand is Alton was trying to hurt the enemy, but unfortunately, his son was in the crossfire and he didn't fucking care.

26:16Oti: Well, they took a bullet for Franklin though.

26:16KT: How about how about when Franklin how about when Franklin sucked him in the face and he kept coming around to the house and was like, what are you? A fucking straight cat? Leave.

26:16Oti: He's the father, mate.

26:16KT: Is he? When he wants to be. Fuck off. And I guess to be clear, friends and lovers, I never liked Alton since the start. Started to You I like could I have a daddy issue. That's why Oti's here.

26:16Oti: Oh, wow.

26:16KT: C'est la vie, say daddy, I guess. I guess.

26:48KT: Okay. Let's let's theorize. I feel like Alton is dead. I feel like this show is steeped in enough quality to not pull its punch literally,

26:57KT: and I feel like Alton's dead.

26:57Oti: Yeah. Alton's dead. I think Good. The last step for me in season five would be Franklin against Teddy because we know it's coming.

27:06KT: We know it's coming. Game respect game, though.

27:10Oti: Not to the point where you kill the dad. You know, in as much as Franklin hates Alton, there's some boundaries, mate. Yeah. I can punch my father. I can suck apart my father, but Can you cannot kill you? Yeah.

27:22KT: I've never seen you disagree with your father. I can't.

27:27Oti: What is disagreeing with your father even mean?

27:27KT: And now we learn friends and lovers. I'm not the only one with a daddy issue.

27:27Oti: We've all got daddy issues. Come on now. How come we don't say I love you, man?

27:42KT: Oh, okay. Well, I think that's enough for Alton so we can get on to other characters. Is there anything you wanna say about Cissy? I have a couple of things.

27:52Oti: She's trash, man. Okay.

27:59KT: I'm holding true to my opinions from the first season to the third one. Yeah. It just felt weak because it's the first female character that we're talking about. That's all.

28:07Oti: Louie is great.

28:12KT: Yeah. Cissy was interesting because what really bothered me in the earlier seasons was she was so scornful towards Jerome without even realizing that Jerome was that buffer between Franklin and the streets. And he did so much to make sure that Franklin was okay. And then, you know, once it became legitimate money, she was all for it. Yep.

28:36Oti: Yeah. She she did not at least we get to see her realize. We get to see her realize how the importance Jerome played in all this. It wasn't Jerome spoiling Franklin. Franklin was way beyond that. You know? I disagree. It's it's more Jerome came into it just so that he could protect Franklin. And once Cissy saw that, I think that sort of repaired their bond and relationship. They got to be together. They enjoyed each other's company after that. One of the things that does really grind my gears when it comes to Cissy is

29:17Oti: she is so fucking flippant.

29:19KT: Yeah. She's a flip flopper. Yeah. She can

29:23Oti: be turned one way or another just by the flip of a switch. Or a coin.

29:30KT: More specifically. Yeah. That makes more sense. Because I remember the whole gentrification thing. She was like, Franklin, alright, move on. And

29:42Oti: I was like, alright, lady. Yeah. She seems I think this is why we we get a different sort of reaction from or we get to see the difference between Cissy and Fron and Alton is, in as much as Alton stands up for what he thinks is right, Cissy sees the wrong that's happening,

29:58Oti: but she just doesn't wanna rock the boat. She said she's lost Franklin before, and she's not gonna lose her again lose him again. But she was also indulging in the riches. Yeah. She enjoyed just getting herself bling and all. Not a bad thing, but she was. Enjoying that that lot, too. Yeah. Yeah. Alton, I I will give Alton that much. She wasn't there. There was nothing like that. Was she on the yacht with Jay-Z? Yeah. She was. So when it comes to Cissy, I

30:27Oti: think the aspects of her that her character that I feel cool, I can understand, and I can't resonate with. But she moves in believable ways. Yeah. She wasn't just doing wonky stuff for no reason. Yeah. And I think one of the last things that at least got my respect or made me look at Cissy completely different way is when she decided to go with Alton at the end of it all. Because I still felt I had a nagging feeling at the back of my mind that she'll just be like,

30:54Oti: fuck it out and Teddy, shoot him. I'll protect Franklin no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, kudos for her trying to step out. You know? It's not gonna end well for her and think she's gonna even go she's gonna go bad. She's gonna break bad as well. Once she finds Alton's body.

31:14KT: But when they were leaving and you knew they were never going to see each other again, like you just knew it. And to see Franklin and Cissy, Damson and Michael specifically, you can just see how many years they've spent together on this TV show. And one of the most beautiful emotional moments of this show, I guess, because Alton wasn't in the view either. But seeing that mother and son relationship, and unfortunately, we were going to lose that, but it was so tender and it was so real and when it was so true. Everything

31:50KT: that Cissy did was to help Franklin, you know, in earlier seasons, it was to help him see that this wasn't the life. But once she realized that he was going to keep pushing and he was ambitious like that, you know, she she tried to be able to be in his sphere to make sure he was okay.

32:10Oti: Yeah. Agreed.

32:11KT: Let's speak more about Franklin's sphere. I wanna talk about Jerome and I wanna talk about Louie. Jerome and I would say Leon are my favorite characters in this show. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I don't care for Louie. The way the way you feel about Cissy, I feel about Louie because she was she was she was a lot. She was a lot and she was Franklin. She was a lot and she was everything.

32:33Oti: She was in the game. She was like, yeah, I'm completely bought in. But a lot of her connections is what got Franklin started.

32:40KT: Yeah. So So I acknowledge that.

32:43Oti: To me when it comes to Jerome and Frank and Louie is I I dislike the way she's treated Jerome because I think she should have been more open with Jerome, especially since he wants to do the right by both Louie and Franklin. Yeah. And he truly does care. Yeah. So to be put in a spot where he is just blind, doesn't know shit what's happening Yeah. Is completely wrong. And I think that's where Louie just fucked up. Especially because Jerome opened the door to Franklin.

33:14KT: Cause it was his dealing that got Franklin out on the streets and then he went and met Avi.

33:19Oti: Yeah. And Jerome is fra fucking Franklin's

33:22KT: uncle. And he's loved and respected by the streets as well, which we see later on, in particular with Leon. Yeah. He's old school that way. So it's it's weird that that's how it turned out.

33:32Oti: And then for it to all play out the way that, you know, Jerome has held Ben on going to Fatback's funeral. Out of respect. Yeah. And Louie's like, mate, are you kidding me? You've got Why do you need to concern yourself with that stuff? It wasn't that. It was that there they had

33:50Oti: was a bounty on their heads, mate.

33:50KT: No. Louie's in her ivory attire on me. She don't wanna see where the money's get, where the sausage is made. We're not talking about Cissy.

33:59Oti: Hey.

34:00KT: Hey, Izzy. You stay off my sissy.

34:04Oti: There a bounty on their heads, and we come to see it pass. She was like, mate, something's gonna happen when you go there. As soon as we saw the slow mo walk, Louie coming up Bye, Louie. Walking up the cab. We knew what was gonna happen. We knew it.

34:23KT: Louie, there's a lot to say about Louie, which, you know, I've already mentioned in the previous episode, so I'm not gonna get into it now. I'm necessarily a fan of Louie. Yeah, you say she's like Franklin, but she's worse.

34:37Oti: They're equally bad.

34:45KT: A particular quote that I really enjoyed came from Jerome when he was talking to Franklin, this shit ain't easy, but it doesn't have to be complicated. Because at that point, it's so fucking exhausting. All of these secrets, all of this running around, just run it to me straight.

34:45Oti: Agreed. And I think

35:06Oti: their split makes so much sense now, doesn't it? Yeah. In retrospect. Because at the moment we're watching it, you're like, what the hell? This big this brings me back to Franklin how crap of a character he is. Jerome and Louie have just asked out to run their own game. Yep. But they'll still, of course, you know, divvy up the money. Then we get Leon telling Franklin, mate, they're your family. Just give them whatever they want. And what does he do? He's like, nah, man. I'll find a way to bring them back. Leon himself asks,

35:43Oti: I can't do this anymore after killing a kid. His heart is no longer in that. And what does Franklin do? You're staying right there, man. What kind of you know what? You know what? I I envisioned something. Franklin is gonna die in the next season. And you know who's gonna kill him? Jerome, Louie, and Leon shots to the back. Flat back back back. You've hard to hear Fast Van. There's a stranger

36:10KT: around my pond. How did you get here? Get the fuck out. So it's gonna be like a trispiracy Yeah. Is what you're saying. Mhmm. That's garbage. Stop submitting your storylines

36:33KT: to TV shows. I don't wanna see your storylines on my TV shows.

36:33Oti: Man, if it could happen to Caesar, it could happen to Lee. It could happen to Franklin.

36:42KT: Death under Caesar? Yeah. Okay. There you go. Let's talk about Leon. One of the sweetest moments and emotional moments in season four was when Cissy went to go and see Leon and something so simple as just braiding his hair was such a beautiful tender moment.

37:01Oti: Yeah. I think that's one of the unexpected things I saw about Cissy. You know? I thought she knew it. I knew you were gonna do that. I thought she'd come up with her preachy self. Why'd you do that, Leon? How could you do that? You know? And for her to just understand the gravity of the situation, and not say a word, I think that was my favorite Cissy moment in the whole show up to date. Hands down.

37:01KT: Alright,

37:26KT: detective friends and lovers. Someone also has mommy issues in addition to daddy issues. Leon is a fucking g and he is solid throughout this show and specifically within season four. It is unfortunate that he shot a kid, but it wasn't deliberate. And it it's it's a believable sort of story arc, and it'll be an interesting development following Leon on the aftermath of that. Because you can see he's still reeling from that, and he's still trying to pick up the pieces from that.

38:04Oti: Yeah. Completely agree. Think Leon is one of the faves in this. Yeah. Absolutely. He will I think I'm not sure how it ends for him because he is in a place where he feels like he can't do anymore, but he can't leave Franklin because he feels obliged to him.

38:23KT: Well, it's interesting because we even see semblances of Jerome wanting out of the game as well. Even though everyone made fun of his speaker store, he genuinely was happy. He was fine having his speaker store. And I think Leon is getting to that point as well where he's just had enough. Like he's worn down by it all. Yeah. I think the death of also just pushed him over as well. Yeah. Especially because Fat Fatback was willing to do the time. And

38:52KT: he was supposed to be under protection of Franklin.

38:52Oti: Mate, Franklin does not look after his own people. He was like, I'll send someone over. Fatback was released and he was nowhere to be seen. He didn't send anyone.

38:52KT: Wait until we get the 50 Cent spin off of Alton in his younger years. And

39:07KT: we'll see how we'll see his path of destruction.

39:11Oti: Oh, man. It's it's it's just one of those things that I think Franklin needs to take better care of his own family.

39:18KT: As opposed to the father of the family?

39:20Oti: He's running the show. You know he is. So might as well take the responsibility. If he's fucking big enough to make a deal with CIA and put everyone else's life in danger, He should be able to step up when it's called upon and look after his own fucking family.

39:37KT: Disagree. Hard disagree. I just wanted to quickly mention Kevin because we had a trio at the start of Snowfall. We had Franklin, Leon and Kevin. And I just wonder what it would be like

39:54KT: in the show if Kevin wasn't the one that was shot.

39:54Oti: I don't think he He would have died eight years ago. You reckon? Yeah. He was not one for the streets. He was just ridiculous. Yay. It was gonna happen one way or another.

40:11KT: Talk about happening one way or the other. Let's get to a character that I don't care for, but definitely a lot to talk about. So we definitely wanna get to it. Let's talk about Teddy.

40:22Oti: I don't know why you don't like Teddy. He's got his own sense of allegiances.

40:25KT: Doesn't Cissy? His obligations. Doesn't Cissy?

40:29Oti: No. But he has seen shit. He's had to kill a lot of people that he didn't want to kill. He has seen a lot of shit. Alright. And to be on the field for that long alone without any sort of support, with a crap wife, have you forgotten about his fucking ex wife?

40:49KT: No. But we talked about it in that episode. I don't need to give him that grace.

40:54Oti: He's been through shit. So I I know

40:59Oti: that he's just doing whatever he thinks is right.

40:59KT: Grab your abacus because he's been through shit, but he's also administered shit. So I would say that they balance each other out, mate. He made his brother consume his body weight in Coke. So that's He he

41:16Oti: his brother there and they tortured his brother. He did not know.

41:19Oti: He did not know it's gonna happen that way.

41:19KT: Franklin didn't know what the drugs will do to the community then, you dickhead.

41:27Oti: Fuck off.

41:30KT: Fuck out of here, Bill O'Too Neil. Wow.

41:37Oti: Wow.

41:39KT: Wow. I will give Teddy this. I really appreciate, dare I say admire, him not trying to roll up any sense of morality because that's what's really annoying. You know, when people spitefully and willfully do something and then they pretend it's some altruistic thing like fucking Alton. Right? If you wanna be a shit person and you wanna do a shit thing, then don't try and make yourself like an angel. So I will give Teddy that credence. He knew he was a fucking cretin, and he carried his way in cretinous ways.

42:17Oti: But the thing that really got me is their close bond with Oso. That was really cute to see, you know, because Oso is a great character. And when we see the Teddy interacting with someone, at least trusting someone else, because he's been quite closed up until now. You know, we had his partner. He's a partner with shit. Who end up killing anyway. Yeah. So

42:39Oti: it was good to see him have someone to who he can lean on. You know? They didn't have to say a million words, and even if fucking say a word, they just knew where they stood with each other. And to me, that was really heartwarming to see.

42:39KT: It's interesting where you choose to deposit your emotions, mate,

42:57KT: in the heartless killer. Yeah. It was interesting. And I wanna talk a little bit about his family because, you know, like you said, that that's the differentiator in regards to Teddy and Franklin, at least this part of the journey that Franklin still cares for his own. Teddy disbands that. And where you see all of any sort of tethers, you know, being cut off was the moment that the dad called and said that the brother died, the funeral already happened. Leave me alone. Don't ever fucking talk to me again.

43:33KT: Right? That's where if if there was any sort of inkling that Teddy might still care about someone, anyone, that removes all doubt that he is just a lone ranger out there.

43:47Oti: Yeah. He's definitely alone. Yeah. And, you know, that's all a shit thing for the dad to do, but they've had a really rocky relationship anyway. But to me, Teddy is in as much as he is a stone cold killer Mhmm. At least he took Franklin under his wing. You know, it was easy enough to just give Franklin all the fucking coke and just be like, you know, you do whatever you want to do.

44:14KT: He is capable of But he taught he taught Franklin the game. And he didn't need to. He did need to.

44:21Oti: You know? And for some fucking weird reason, he fucking cares about Franklin. In as much as he says, you know, you're you're dispensable. I can find someone else. That's out of anger or frustration. At the end of it, he wants to see Franklin fucking succeed, at least until the end of it.

44:21KT: Well, I guess there was a part of him that felt a kinship

44:41KT: between himself and Franklin that that, you know, despite it all, Franklin is ambitious and he's gonna show him the ropes. And I guess there was a part of him that was also disappointed that he didn't want his dad to die either.

44:57Oti: Yeah. Yeah. And he told you know, he's he's given Franklin a lot of truth bombs. You know, when he when he told Franklin don't fucking trust anyone Mhmm. That made Frank start reevaluating all his all his fucking conversations and relationships. Oh, yeah. Because t I you know, this is why Franklin I don't get Franklin sometimes. Mhmm. One time, he's supposed to be this fucking person who thinks about every other process. Thinks about he thinks about 10 steps forward. Yeah. And then t drops out of nowhere,

45:29Oti: asks some silly questions all the time. Continues asking these questions all the time. And I'm like, mate, at one point, they're gonna realize that Tee has some ulterior motives.

45:39KT: Yeah. And then they try to make it as if he knew it the whole time, but it's He like didn't. Did you dick know? Like, were you aware? It didn't. You know? Yeah. I I and the fact that he would just take calls in front of her, I thought that was a bit weird. Yeah. Like tell her to leave the room or something.

45:59Oti: Especially when you're dealing with your connect, you know? You're talking to Teddy, mate. Go hide in the bathroom or some shit. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, yay yay.

46:11KT: Quick little shout out to the character Lerp because I clocked that he was Monk from The Wire. Mhmm. So there's another Wire crossover there. We talked a little bit about Tee. I don't really have much more to say about her aside from the fact that she was led in too early into the inner sanctum. I wanna talk about Skully, Khadijah, Manboy. But before we do that, I wanna talk a little bit about Irene.

46:36KT: I loved Irene as soon as she popped up on the screen. I loved everything about her. I love the sort of character she was. I love that there was dimension to her character and it showed that as much as she was ambitious, there was sacrifices that she made in her personal life as well. Even to the point where her adult daughter doesn't talk to her anymore. Her marriage fizzled, but she's she's always been, you know, adamant about getting to the truth to a detriment, but I really I I really appreciated her gusto.

47:12Oti: Yeah. A good gusto. You know? She's got some really gritty reporter chops.

47:18KT: Yeah. But that doesn't take you so far, does it? Well, it doesn't if you're, you know, trying to bring down the system. How can you see that with Irene, but you can't fucking see it without him? No. Like,

47:29Oti: Teddy broke into her house. Yeah. Dragged her. Said, mate. Yeah. Drop this or you're fucking dead. Yeah. She wakes up the next morning, she's like, I'm gonna go to the radio station and do it anyway. At the persuasion of Alton. She did not need any persuasion, man. She just mate, at at what point do you say enough? You've been threatened? What good is getting your sound bite out there and your story out there at the expense of your life and your family's life? He threatened his whole fucking family her whole fucking family.

48:08Oti: And she was still like, yeah, man.

48:11KT: But didn't you also say that Kenyan fighters had to fight even if it meant they wouldn't win?

48:11Oti: Hey, don't use my words against What

48:23Oti: is this? Your

48:27KT: history belongs to the world, my love. It was very ambitious and it was folly. It was folly for her to think that she could take down the system. It was nice to see the CIA man, when you think of CIA, his head pops into your head. It was nice to see him again. There's also inklings of Lucia being alive as well, which we didn't really get to talk about.

48:55KT: Yeah, it was folly. It was definitely folly to believe that they could do that. They couldn't even do that on The Wire in regards to like investigative journalism because it continues to get buried under. It's an elite few,

49:07Oti: but they all look after each other. It's the Kensian aspect of it all.

49:14KT: Thank you, Oti. You're welcome. So learned of you. I am. Let's finish off with Skully and Manboy as and I guess also Khadijah as well. Skully, Skully, Skully, man. This is where I had qualms with Franklin. He should have chose.

49:31Oti: He should have made a decision. Either get

49:34Oti: rid of Manboy or get rid of Skully.

49:34KT: No. But he was he was he was applying CIA strategy. He was pitting them against each other. Wrong decision, but I'm just saying.

49:45Oti: Either you take out the ambitious Manboy, who wants your connect and wants to run the town. Yeah. Or you stick with Skully, who's just comfortable being himself in the in the He's

49:56KT: got a lot of bite, and he's got a lot of bark. He's got a lot of both. Who would But he has no ambition beyond his station. No. But but who would you have gone for if you so you

49:56Oti: I I would have gotten rid of Manboy. Fact. Quick fact.

49:56KT: I would have too. Yeah. But we also learned that Khadijah was ready to go on a Jonathan Wickinson adventure. So either way, she would have went after Fatback.

50:18Oti: Yeah. But that's one of the things this season. I was like, oh, man, Franklin, come on. Think. Think. Yeah. You can't be a stone cold killer one morning, and then the next one be, oh, I'll come make a decision. Let me see how it'll go. Because you know with an unproven quantity and unpredictable quantity like Skully, who was high up on drugs when he was when he was going to the meeting. Yeah. He sensed trouble. He smelled it. He was like, I smell something. You know? It could have been some bizarre shit, but his

50:52Oti: unpredictability led to all this shit. Oh, absolutely. If he'd just chosen Manboy, this shit would have ended. Maybe Khadijah would have felt away.

51:02KT: But not to the level of me. Not to the level. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it would have been messy either way. I definitely feel like that was the worst decision to make because I think we were like, okay, at least someone's gonna die. Like Franklin's not gonna die, but at least Skully or Manboy are gonna die in the crossfire.

51:22Oti: Fucking none of them none of them died. So it was the worst possible scenario. Yeah. Because he chose Manboy. He wanted Manboy to ambush Skully and kill them all. But then man, Manboy, Manboy is

51:33KT: the worst. Oh yeah, absolutely. Interesting. Interesting. And you know, I was happy watching this show from week to week. Like we mentioned in our Perry Mason episode and, you know, even The Boys season two. Snowfall really did benefit from a week to week release because we were able to digest everything that was happening. And although it ended on a cliffhanger, they were all self contained and we enjoyed ourselves and being able to draw back on, even talking about Kevin really quickly earlier, just really lamenting

52:10KT: on the moments that just happened and ramping up for what was going to happen next. And it was nice to enjoy the show without knowing it was going to be renewed for season five. But in the last half of season four, we did hear that there will be a season five, which is also fine as well. But, yeah, it's really interesting because it didn't pull any punches in regards to the storylines and the furthering of character arcs in this season.

52:38KT: Usually, when you know it's been renewed for three more seasons, it kind of slows down and it kind of stagnates character development. But we were all guns blazing. We were. If you're pardon the Skullies. So it'll be interesting to see what season five branches off into. It makes me feel like it's going to be more expansive because they talked about expanding operations. We also have Louie's friends that are also in on it as well. So I guess we'll see how that's going. The three of them seemed a bit tumultuous

53:13KT: and they seem like they're going to get high off their supply. So I guess we'll see how that goes. Teddy's going to be very interesting to watch because he's kind of like a free agent now. So he's going to cause trouble and set fires that possibly Franklin will have to deal with. Avi, I love seeing Avi. At any moment we can see Avi is is delicious to me. He's

53:37KT: a great character. I love seeing him around. And he he makes no mistake about who he is as well. Unless, you know, there are millions of dollars that have disappeared somewhere. Yep. Is there anything else you wanna add my love to this tantalizing extravaganza?

53:53Oti: I loved how they did it. Yeah. I loved how everyone had a moment of of be it epiphany, be it self reflection, everyone had that moment. Whether or not they took the chance to change their lives for the better or for the worst, that's yet to be seen, but they're given a chance. They're given opportunity. Those are something that happened. Mhmm. With Skully, it was the death of his daughter. He changed. With Manboy, Manboy just say, man. Yeah. Even at the end when Manboy was being shot,

54:30Oti: he was like, yeah, he's the same, you know, but beat Leon, Franklin, Tee, Peaches, everyone got a fucking opportunity. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And it's one of those things that season five, I think, will be even gorier and bloodier, and there'll be betrayals. There'll be a lot of fights and and and and backstabbings because

54:57KT: that's how Franklin has set this up. Snowfall season five, Cloak and Daggers, Blood and Sand. Exactly. Well, let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. So because we've already covered Snowfall, I'll mention the references that we had last time and feel free to add on it if you would like to, my love. I referenced Wu-Tang: An American Saga. Nice. Ashton Sanders, fucking love go again and watch Judas and the Black Messiah. He's great in it. And you referenced The Wire.

55:30Oti: Oh, nice. And we did get Lap as well.

55:33KT: Forsyth, mate. Yeah. And we also have Cissy there as well.

55:38Oti: I do not recognize anyone related to D'Angelo.

55:43KT: Tap, tap, tap. Yeah. If you wanna tap, tap, tap on our ass on Twitter and Instagram, we're at For Your Ref Pod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on fat back podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.