Deadwood – It hearst my bullocks

Full transcript of Deadwood – It hearst my bullocks.

0:00KT: Hey, guys. It's another week of For Your Reference, and we're starting off with Your Phrase or Mine. And I must tell you, I'm feeling quite good about myself because I finally won last week, and I have got the phrase this week for Oti.

0:16Oti: Mhmm.

0:16KT: Are you ready?

0:16Oti: Ready as a yep.

0:19Oti: Bring it.

0:19KT: Alright. Take the gilt off the gingerbread.

0:27Oti: Take the gilt

0:29KT: of l I t. Oh my. Oh. If it's a female gingerbread.

0:36Oti: I think it would mean that remove blemishes from oneself.

0:40KT: Incorrect. It's actually the opposite. So you remove an item's most attractive qualities, not the blemishes.

0:49Oti: Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

0:52KT: Well, I guess I get to choose next week's episode. So let's get on with the show, guys. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. Hopefully, you enjoyed that Your Phrase or Mine. I know Oti definitely did.

0:52Oti: Yeah.

0:52KT: And yeehaw, hot doggy, have we got a show for you today, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

0:52Oti: I'm offended.

0:52KT: But you're not the demographic that I was hoping we didn't offend. Demographic we take it to you now. Okay. Stotally. We are covering Deadwood today.

1:51KT: And, wow, it has we will get into it, but we did the John Wick episode two weeks ago, and that's as much time that we needed to binge Deadwood for myself, first of all, and you for the second time around before this Deadwood movie came out. So I would say this is probably the most transformative change I've ever had in my life. Wow. Just just wow. And, you know, it's tantalizing. Stick with us, guys. Grab a nice nice glass of wine, a nice bottle, you know, if you'll pardon the grape.

2:28KT: Get yourself a snack because we are hot diggity dogging.

2:33Oti: You need to stop.

2:35KT: I can't I can't help it. I'm so excited. So Deadwood, iconic series that has been around between the years of 2004 to 2006 from the mind grapes of David Milch. He has he has created, he's co wrote on quite a lot of shows, and Deadwood is delicioso. Coming out of the home box office, otherwise known as HBO, hot little tidbit. David Milch, when he was pitching this to HBO, he actually wanted to set this within ancient Rome. But they HBO was already developing Rome at the time. So upon

3:17KT: their advice, he switched it to a country western, and it's a Deadwood that we all know and love today.

3:24Oti: So crazy to think that I'm I'm the way Rome is written and the way Deadwood is, he really did pivot it to suit the kind of show that they wanted in a western, and it just delivered on so many levels.

3:24KT: But I think also at the same time, if you

3:42KT: have your cojones in writing, you can pretty much drive the vehicle through any time frame, through any space, and any sort of narrative, which is total credit to David Milch. And I don't know if you guys know, but we live in Deadwood, and Deadwood is situated in the spoiler canyon. So, you know, come and join us with all our frivolity and all our salaciousness, but just be aware we're definitely going to spoil things.

4:12KT: And this tidbit has to do with the movie. I was reading some facts, and I'm I'm pretty sure it's from IMDb. It's kind of our foundational repository of knowledge. And it said that David Milch actually developed Alzheimer's in 2015, which was before he started writing for the Deadwood movie.

4:12Oti: Oh, really?

4:12KT: Yeah. So it I guess it's fascinating, you know, The the limitations that, you know, sometimes mentally we put on ourselves aren't limitations for other people, which we'll see with Jewel's character. Fucking amazing. Right? But let's let's go through it. So David Milch, super amazing.

4:52KT: Let's go through the cast. And, wow, what an expansive cast. And there's so much dimension in all of these characters. You know, a lot of the time, especially with henchmen, you know, they're they're kind of, if if they're lucky, have one dimension to them, and that's all there is. Yeah. But Deadwood really fleshes out and gives a backstory even without knowing what the backstory is for these henchmen in this example, you still know that there's there's there's a

5:23KT: there's an ethos that they live by. There's a code that they operate by, which is super fascinating. So I say that to say, have patience with us. I am going to read off the HBO site for the cast and crew. And because there's so many, I'm just going to read the first two rows. But we're definitely going to try and cover as many characters in today's episode as much as possible. So we have the ever eternal universal Don't make me sing eternal flame because I will.

5:59KT: Dear. I will turn this eternal ship around. Don't you worry. Ian McShane. Is he knighted? Oh my god. Let let's not Google it because if Ian McShane is not knighted, I will I will fight a bitch.

5:59Oti: He's not knighted. Why would he be knighted?

5:59KT: Okay. Let don't don't you dare Google it because I will burn this shit to the ground. I will set that horse off to trample all the children. No. Don't. My heart my heart breaks. Okay. So let let's try and get through this before I have my own breakdown. We have

6:35KT: sir. I'm going to call him sir. Come for me, queen Elizabeth. I'm waiting. We have sir Ian McShane playing Al Swearengen, or as our friend Wu likes to say, Swedgen. Because I'll either call him Al or Swedgen in this episode out of solidarity. We have, for some reason, Tim Olyphant. Do people say Tim? Timothy Olyphant.

6:35Oti: Oh, He's a grown man.

6:35KT: Beg your pardon. What?

7:03Oti: Did you send him a message? Did you just are you just from texting him? I'm too familiar, aren't you? Tim Olyphant.

7:09KT: Oh, wow. I call him Timbo.

7:12Oti: Oh, wow. Okay.

7:15KT: Well, his name isn't in the cast setting, but we know it's him. And he plays Seth Bullock. We also have Molly Parker whose face was constructed for this show. I don't mean that in plastic surgery away. I just mean her face suits the show. Settle down. The period, brother? Yes. And her period. Oh, Imagine having your period back in this time. No Thank you, Satan. I will create a time machine to go to the future where pads were created.

7:45Oti: Where do we

7:49KT: or tampons, if if you'll pardon the cotton. Molly Parker is where we were, played by Alma Garrett. Oh, sorry. Alma Garrett is the character, and then later on, she becomes Alma Ellsworth. We also have John Hawkes playing Sol Star. Fun tidbit, David Milch, the creator, is Jewish. So even though there are some terrible things said about Jewish people,

8:17KT: I guess it's not out of a genuine place of hate. I would assume.

8:17Oti: Even if it was, I don't think it would come out of place of hate. It's more of the period and the time and the the perception of

8:17KT: You know what? You really picked up on

8:33KT: something very, very pivotal. And I do do. Yeah. Tell me. Do you wanna do a tally? One day, our podcast will get big enough where people will start constructing, like, tallies and counts and drinking games of us. But in the meantime, just know I'm the reigning champion of all things. Okay? Let's go let's go I just wanna pick up on something very rare, but something very pivotal that you just said. I think it needs to be said that you need to be mindful of the period piece and the contemporary

9:15KT: language that happens in a TV show or also in a movie, like, it's not really historically accurate. But, you know, if you talk about Game of Thrones or if you talk about anything of that ilk or Spartacus or Rome, you know, people get up in arms about, you know, rape scenes or even, you know, slave movies, 12 Years a Slave, Roots Yeah. It's called Roots. Kunta Kunta. Yes.

9:43Oti: You know, people get looking at me when you're thinking about that. Oh, come on now.

9:48KT: Who am I gonna look at? Our dog, he's not gonna help us. Wow. Really? Just say it's See, you see what you did? You see what you did? What Oti giveth, Oti taketh. Let me finish this thought off because we're actually covering Deadwood today, not your unraveling. Okay? So my point, which was your point, but you took it away, is that, you know, sometimes people can get up in arms about, you know, the racist language or,

10:20KT: you know, the oppressive sort of undertones or, you know, overt tones of a movie and of a TV show. And I think sometimes people just need to understand that that obviously, it's not a 2019 production, and you kind of just need to appreciate it for what it is. Do you know what I'm saying? I hear you. So even a lot of there was quite a lot of sensitive sort of nature that was going on with Staltzler. I I can't say his name.

10:52KT: There there was a lot of themes, and I definitely wanna talk about that. But, you know, the use of the n word in Deadwood, it's I don't I don't think it was gratuitous, but I because I know some people might be put off with that.

11:06KT: Not just the general cocksucker and motherfucks in the show, but the the actual treatment of other people. And I I just wanna make it clear that, you know, you kinda need to take things with a grain of salt when it comes to these things. Another example that I will give is Agatha Christie And Then There Were None. One of our favorite stories from Agatha Christie. Right? But its origins less are than wholesome.

11:30Oti: True.

11:31KT: And if you wanna look it up, then you can look it up. But we're we're not gonna cover that today, but it's definitely something good that you said that I just wanted to pick up off on because you can appreciate something but not wholly endorse what it is. It's a bit different than, you know, Quentin Tarantino just throwing around the n word just because he wants to. Right? Just jumping on the chance. And I love I do love myself, Quentin Tarantino, but we all know he kind of he kind of sniffs his own ass

11:59KT: quite a lot. So let's go back to the cast. I'll just go through second row in the cast. We've got Paula Malcomson playing Trixie. Super solid.

12:12Oti: Yeah. Super solid. Super solid. I love Donovan, you even love her more.

12:18KT: Well, I love her now. Cool. You wanna fight? You can and continue reading off the cast members. Oh, good on you. We also have Robin Weigert who plays Calamity Jane. She she had her ups and downs more downs, but we'll get to that. We also have Powers Boothe. Rest in peace, Powers.

12:41Oti: Oh, fun fact. Sorry. Not fun fact, but it's just a fact. He's buried in in a town in Deadwood.

12:49KT: No way. Yeah. Oh, bless. And what a beautiful name. Powers Boothe. Really beautiful name. Playing not so great of a character, Cy Tolliver. Oh, I can I'm just so excited. I'm always excited about our podcast episodes, but, wow, I'm very excited to talk about these characters today. Oh, cool. Oh my god. And then the last the last person in the first eight of the cast is Kim Dickens played by Joanie Stubbs. And according to her, she actually took quite a few of her hats home, including her iconic buckle hat.

13:24Oti: Oh, great. I'll I'll take everything. Right? Yeah. Why not? Why live it there? Yeah. Take a horse. Yeah. You don't know. Ten, twenty years, you could sell it for way more.

13:36KT: Before we go through first impressions, because we did talk about the horse, I just wanna mention something because I've been listening to interviews in the lead up to the Deadwood movie. And, apparently, David Milch was and the writers, they were having issues with either the child that played Bullock's son Mhmm. Or the parents of the child. Probably the parents, but it it was either one or the other. And David Milch went up to Timothy Olyphant, and he was like,

14:06KT: we're killing the kid. The kid needs to die. You're gonna do well out of this, but the kid needs to die. And then that's how they that's how they formulated him dying by the horse. Really? Yeah. So I don't know if it was written in the stars that the kid was going to die. But just with complications, that's why he ended up dying. Far out. Right?

14:27Oti: At least it it acted as a vehicle to to drive Bullock and the wife closer because I don't see how that would have happened. Well, I guess they started getting closer to get, you know, closer with the kid, but it just acted as a vehicle to them appreciate each other more. And And for to and to make sure that Bullock doesn't leave her from for Alma.

14:54KT: Yeah. And I am gonna break form for a second. Before we do the first impressions, I do wanna mention this because we have so many talented and beautiful inspired cast that I don't think we're going to be able to get back to this. So I just wanna quickly mention, you had qualms, sir Mhmm. With the child's well, not the not the child's death. We love children. We love children, guys. The fact that everyone everyone in Deadwood was at a standstill and how important it was, the the death of the child. It it seems like

15:40KT: you had much qualm.

15:42Oti: Many qualm? Not qualms. Just worried. In a town in a lawless town where people get killed every other day, apparently, a kid dies and the whole community stops. The whole community cries. That didn't even make sense. That just didn't make sense to me.

16:03KT: Yeah. It it was it was an interesting one. I I do understand how an innocent child being tramped by a horse would cause sadness and a moment of self reflection, But I also don't see at the same time how everything just stopped. So I I do agree to an extent

16:22KT: for you. Let's dive into first impression. So, again, this was the first time I've watched Deadwood, and it's the second time that you've watched it. Do you wanna do you wanna go? Do you want me to go?

16:22Oti: You go. You go. Tell me what you thought. You're letting a leer, dear finish.

16:22KT: Always a gentleman. Always a gentleman. Just doesn't like kids. That's your tagline for today. Okay. So, yes, this is the first time that I've watched Deadwood. It was always in my periphery. I always knew Deadwood was there,

16:57KT: and it's always on lists of the best shows ever or at least shows that you should watch before you die. I don't know how big it was in Australia, personally. Culturally, I don't think it was big in my circles.

16:57Oti: Nothing was big in your circles, mate.

16:57KT: Yeah. Jonah from Tonga.

17:19KT: Yeehaw.

17:20Oti: Oh, dear lord. She wasn't big in my circles. Hey, man. Sorry. You alright?

17:27KT: Do you not like the hue of my circle? They're quite shapely, though. Whole

17:34Oti: shapely?

17:35KT: Oh my. Let let's continue before this takes a this takes a tangent where we're not supposed to go. Yeah. So I just never I never really watched it, but it was one of those things where, like, yeah, I'll get around to it, and I'll watch it. And thanks to you guys and this podcast, we do try and align things to, you know, relevant sort of conversations. And the Deadwood movie recently came out, which we also have watched, so we will talk about that today as well if you need more reason to continue listening. But

18:11KT: in a nutshell, I think Deadwood is one of the best shows I have ever consumed and am eager to consume again in the near future. However, it is not without its flaws, And Oti will defy me even on his deathbed, which if you keep saying Ian McShane is not a sir, maybe soon. So just watch out. But, yes, I do think that Deadwood started off very, very, very slow.

18:45KT: It wasn't until the fifth or the sixth episode of the first season that things actually started to pay off Fifth for or sixth? So I will fight you in these streets.

18:56Oti: I will fight you in these streets. Might as well go watch Dora the Explorer, mate.

19:01KT: Wow. The dub version or the sub version?

19:06Oti: Oh, is there a is there a sub version for this?

19:09KT: I have no idea.

19:11Oti: Oh. Oh, well. See what you did? Hey. Maybe there's Dora, the Tongan Explorer.

19:16KT: I'm I'm gonna let you sit in this. You you took us here. Now you need to take us out.

19:22Oti: Continue?

19:24KT: Hey. Hey. Hey. I am the captain now. This

19:29KT: is what happens. Let me drive, sir. Okay. Yes. So Deadwood starts off very slow. You don't really get much payoff until the fifth or sixth episode or not even payoff. Just like, thank you for watching. This is why you're still watching. Right? And you're already trying to fight me. But the writing is so good that even in the first episode and the next few to continue, even though it isn't rewarding, you can still start to see the mechanisms being set up for a great show. And for that reason alone,

20:10KT: you need to stick with it. But, wow, the the payoff is exemplary. There are some lows that happen in, like, mid season two and three that become a bit onerous, but the highs outweigh that in every single sense.

20:28Oti: Well, I had a I had a different view from you because I remember the first time I was watching this, and I fell in love with the show after the first episode. I could just see in my mind everything that they're planning to do from the interactions with each other. I knew that Seth Bullock was gonna be this great protagonist. This is the mind you, this was the first time watching it. For that to happen. And the second time, because I think I don't know how I remembered it, but I really thought that

21:05Oti: Seth Bullock played a bigger role in this. And then watching it the second time, I realized that it was all about Al and what he had founded in Deadwood and what he was trying to achieve and everything that spawned off that, vis a vis, trying to get Deadwood annexed, trying to get some sort of freedom to carry out how they operate in the town. And it was just so amazing because I think I just remembered it wonkily, and that's that's on me.

21:38KT: We'll we'll talk more about Seth Bullock and Timothy Olyphant in a second. But I do wanna touch on what you just said because this shows how different we are in in our viewership. Right? We both agree that the show was being set up in the first few episodes. We both agree on that. Right? And on the setup alone, you give it accolades. I don't give it accolades until I see the payoff of the setup. But can you not see can you not appreciate what's being done?

22:11Oti: Laying the groundwork laying the groundwork for the story, surely, in your mind, you could see where the story would possibly go and in that, give you the excitement of wanting to watch further to see how it develops.

22:11KT: But that's like saying you've laid the foundation for a house and the house isn't done yet. You can't praise that.

22:11Oti: Mate, once you've laid down the half the foundation of the house, the house is pretty much done. That's the hardest thing to do.

22:41KT: Join me on Oti's architectural one zero one. Okay. If if Oti is messaging you to build your houses, just just just block him. And this is why you're not allowed on the Twitter. Okay? Because I don't want you soliciting dodgy housing developments to our listeners.

23:01Oti: It's where I'm from. It's part of my culture.

23:05KT: If you guys have watched Arrested Development, there's a whole dodgy housing development for the Bluth family. I think it got Oti, Bluth. Wow. Really? You know what? I must I must applaud your conviction because you know you're dead ass wrong, but you still you still stand by your guns.

23:25KT: So good for you.

23:27KT: Good luck living in your foundation with no house. Anything else about your first impressions? I feel like anything you say is void now.

23:40Oti: It's not void. I got free. Help. From Okay.

23:48Oti: All all all I'm saying is you. Sorry. All I'm saying is it's very vital to have a strong foundation. And that's why all the hymns that reference housing, they're all Hang on. Hang on. We have a strong foundation.

24:04KT: So it's it's Was that a rejected David Guinness song? What was that? I'm trying to modusign the modusign the thing on the scene. Let's let's I I don't know where you're going. I don't know where your where where your train has left for the station, but I I don't wanna follow you. There was a hymn that was referenced, how firm a foundation. And because

24:24Oti: Ah, there. There you go. I didn't even remember that. But, see, you're pretty much making my point. Thank you.

24:32KT: Your point.

24:33KT: What I'm okay. Fine. I am going to I am going to circle around you, sir, and I'm going to shut it down. Are you ready? Mhmm. You don't understand that in some essences, we're saying the same thing. You definitely need to have a strong foundation. Otherwise, you have Gintama where there's no substance.

24:54Oti: Oh, okay. Anime.

24:56KT: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. You need to have a good foundation because even once you set it up and there's a payoff, it's not going to hold ground because there's no foundation. Right? Mhmm. So we both agree there needs to be a strong foundation, but you're not acknowledging something needs to happen after the foundation.

25:14KT: You can't just call it a day and go for lunch for two days. You need to

25:19Oti: Let's let's stop. And it does. And and Deadwood Deadwood just does this so amazingly because you could see how it happens. Yes. Straight off the bat, agree. Straight off the the we're introduced by we're introduced to Seth Bullock. And what do you think he does? His first scene, we see how his interaction it it creates his whole demeanor throughout the show, and you know the kind of person he is. You know? Anyway, let's just continue.

25:46KT: Wait. So you're saying Seth Bullock is a good character because he builds a house?

25:52Oti: I did not say that. I don't know where you derived that from, but I did not say that. Play the tape back, my friend.

26:00KT: I feel like young kids don't even know what tape means. Right? Oh, yeah. Man, we're old. We're mature like this vintage wine. I don't know where you're going with your house, but good luck. If anybody is concerned about the For Your Reference household, Oti didn't build it, so we're okay. If it's raining, we'll be fine. Don't worry about that. Let's continue. Anything dangerous? Anything else about your first impressions before we actually dive into the show?

26:30Oti: No. I think that's enough. I think we can we can now just dive in into the show and discuss what we

26:37KT: So we're leave the houses alone now? Yep. Okay. All done with the housing. Okay. I just wanted to touch on How Firm a Foundation, which is a hymn. And in your Catholic upbringing and my Mormon upbringing, sometimes there's an overlap in the Christian sort of experience. And I was like, oh, yeah. How Firm a Foundation? And you didn't know what that was. Right? No. Yeah. So I I think it's because this was around the time that the Mormon church was founded in the eighteen hundreds. So a lot of the

27:11KT: sort of hymns and prayers are influenced by that pioneering sort of America. But we don't have time for that today because I'm pretty sure we're well into our podcast time mark. So let's continue. But, yeah, that's you know, these are some fun little ways of the world. And, you know, if we if we ever can bring it up naturally, ask us about Cain and Abel in the bible. Am I Mormon? Am I Mormon understanding of that? But we're not gonna get into that today. Let's talk about the amazing sir Ian McShane. Swedgen.

27:49Oti: He is essentially the protagonist of this show.

27:53KT: No. Literally.

27:55Oti: Essentially, the protagonist of this show, I said.

28:01KT: You did, and you also regret.

28:06Oti: Because I feel like the an argument can be made as to why Seth Bullock could

28:11KT: nah. No. Let's do Swedgen. Let's do Swedgen. Alright. So

28:15Oti: Al, Al Swearengen is such a solid character. At at the start, I don't think I really warmed up to him, and this is the first time watching him watching first time watching the show. And I couldn't understand why they were focusing so much on him. Yeah. And I didn't really take to him.

28:40KT: And I think that's quite a key call out because at the start of the series, as as the series continues, there's quite a lot of villains. But when the series first starts, Swedgen is kind of set up to appear to be the villain, the bully, the bad guy. Right? And I think that's quite a pivotal sort of call out as well because, you know, not everything is textbook. It's not cut and dry. No one is a 100 good. No one is a 100%

29:12KT: evil. And that's why in your day to day life, you know, you can have toxic people surrounding you. And because they do it with a smile and because they're very manipulative, you don't realize that they're actually talking shit behind your back without you knowing. And I think that's part of the interesting sort of dynamic that we have as humans and we have with each other. And something very key about Al's character is, you know, we talk a lot about the relatable villain, but let's also consider the the damaged hero. How about that?

29:53KT: How'd you like them apples? And what I mean by that is, you know, Al has gone through a lot. And as the show continues, you start to see the sort of upbringing that he had in some sort of he was essentially an orphan. Right? Mhmm. And then as the show continues, we start to hear stories about his mom Yeah. Being casted away, which was very sad. And she tried to leave, and she couldn't. And even before we started to get any sort of inklings about Al's life, Ian McShane

30:30KT: really brings so much dimension to this role that he might be saying something that seems so straightforward, but you can see the layers of his experience as an actor really trying to draw you in to his character. And if if you didn't feel that yourself, which is what you're saying, you start to see it in the interactions around Dan, around Jewel. You know, he says some really harsh things. Right? But he will always go and bat for them at the end of the day.

31:05Oti: Yeah. Because with his interaction with Jewel, it came off really cringey. And you would feel as if, why the fuck would he talk like that to her? You know? And then there's something interesting that Trixie said. I I think Trixie was talking to Dan and saying how why why do you think Jewel is here in the first place? So that no one would mess with her, so that no one can hurt her. Yeah. She could always have a safe home with with Al, and this is Al's way of showing love.

31:34KT: But I think it's also good that he doesn't treat her differently. Exactly. He is he's He's an ass to everyone. Yeah.

31:42Oti: And that's just and the banter between Al and Jewel is so so nice.

31:47KT: It is. And I think I think Jewel was going upstairs or downstairs. I think it's near the end of season three. Al, with his classic one liners, is like, every step is a fucking adventure. And if you listen to our Game of Thrones episode or even our Money Heist episode, we talk about, you know, when you have these leaders that, you know, have these malicious, you know, inhumane sort of orders. Right? And I in Game of Thrones, I talked about how there were problematic leaders that didn't really execute their own malicious

32:35KT: orders. Right? And I don't think you really understood what I meant. And let's compare this to Al. Right? He orders hits left and right. One one of his buddies that comes back to the camp is like, what have you been up to? Al's like, slitting throats? Like, it's literally what he's been doing. Right? But in almost every instance, I counted at least three times,

32:58KT: he was actually scrubbing the blood off the floor as well. He actually stopped Jewel once, and he just did it. And he was he was berating and saying, you're not even doing it properly. But I believe in that way, he was actually trying to do it himself. And something we we'll talk about Tolliver in a second, but just to give some light and shade, Tolliver was a terrible man. Oh, okay. Top to bottom. A voice like honey. Top to bottom. That's that's its own thing. But yeah. So, you know, Tolliver was a terrible person,

33:29KT: and you never really understood where he because you could see that he got off on all of it, but how particularly. He was just evil. He had these shark eyes. He had a voice of honey, but he had shark eyes. And it's like, is there any redeeming quality of him? And I think once they added that contrast of having Tolliver in the camp, it showed that as as as passionate as Al is, he can be reasoned with. Because there were so many times where he was talking to Doc Cochran or

34:03KT: he was talking to Wu, and he could actually be reasoned with. If you came if you came to Al and you just laid yourself bare, he would actually be there for you?

34:14Oti: I don't know about being there for for you, but he'd definitely give you an his ear. Like, he'd listen. Whether or not he'll take action and help you is

34:23KT: He helped so many people. Not so many people. He was like the Mac daddy of Deadwood. I am this close from changing this podcast. He How does your dick swedgen?

34:37Oti: Swedgen wasn't without his Vices. Without his vices. Yeah. So he wasn't perfect. He wasn't this hero that just rescued everyone. He had his flaws, and with it, at least you know what where you stood this aisle. When it comes to Cy Oh.

35:02KT: Oh my. He was terrible. He was terrible. Like, I don't think there was anything redeeming about him because you didn't really know what he actually cared about. And he became a punk ass bitch when Hearst came along. He was such a big man puffing his chest. Now when Hearst comes along, he's like a little kitty.

35:21Oti: Yeah. And, know, one of the one of the one of the few things that I didn't understand is how because it it was just so left field because Cy was all about himself being in power and having all that authority. Big dog. I am the big dog, and I will take, you know, no one else. Mhmm. And then for Hearst to come along, I understand trying to maneuver your way into his graces, but to so much sacrifice or to cede so much power to Hearst.

35:52KT: But remember, he was when they were Aaron Sorkin walking and talking, he was like, oh, you know, I did this, this, this, and this for you. Dude, if you're talking to your superior and you have to explain what you've done, that's like, you've already lost, really. Yeah. True. If you have to prove your value, mate, there's no chance. Just pack up and go home.

36:14Oti: Yeah. And so what did you think about Seth?

36:19KT: Do I think about Seth?

36:21Oti: Oh, you think about Seth all the time. Does he? Remove the poster of Timothy Olyphant off your bedpost fast.

36:27KT: I think I use my bedpost more than I use the poster.

36:33Oti: Whatever the hell that means. It's got a phallic structure. Get it together. Oh, far out. I wanted it to leave it like flour. How many children listening to this podcast?

36:45KT: Well, you just talked about trampling all the kids. You're like the opposite of Pied Piper. Maybe that's a good thing. No one wants to be a Pied Piper. Look it up. Read a book, guys. I'm going to say it. I already tested it on Twitter, and I haven't burned into flames. And to be perfectly honest, I have a lot of hot takes. So if I haven't scared you away yet, I don't think this is going to sink the ship. I don't think Timothy Olyphant is a great actor.

37:18Oti: Explain.

37:19KT: And I don't and you know what? Maybe there is there aren't any camps that are ardently, you know, proclaiming that he is the best actor in the world. I don't know. I don't know if people are that passionate about Timothy Olyphant, but I always had the impression that he was a solid, stellar actor. The only semblances I had of him was in The Office and also in The Mindy Project. And I was like, oh, you know, like,

37:48KT: Stephen Young. Like, I I never really watched a lot of things that Stephen Young was in, but I was like, he's good value. I feel like he's a great guy. Just like Ben Affleck, he's a great guy. So same thing with Timothy Olyphant. So this is the first major role that I've seen mister Olyphant in, and I was not blown away. I was not even blown. It was nothing. I don't and you keep telling me it was the character of Seth Bullock, but he had two facial expressions.

38:20KT: The if you were to go into any dictionary, maybe even urban dictionary, and you look for the word repugnant, you would see that face of Seth Bullock. And if you've watched even, like, two seconds of Deadwood, you know exactly what I'm talking about. So you have his repugnant face, and the other one he has is fuck me eyes. He just he doesn't know how he doesn't know any other tone than that. It's either repugnant or fuck me eyes. So it might get very confusing with some pleasure and pain, but there you go.

38:52KT: Seth Bullock's character was full on rage mode. If anyone plays God of War, I did make a comment while we were watching Deadwood that I don't even want Spartan mode. I just want Seth Bullock mode. Because fucking hell, man. He just went, and he kept going. It's like, dude, calm down. And he just kept going. He kept throwing down. Bullock's character was pivotal. It was important to have in the camp, but I don't necessarily think that Seth brought anything to the role to make it anything more magnificent. An audible gasp

39:29KT: from one person in the world.

39:32Oti: Fun feel.

39:35KT: No. He he doesn't care. He doesn't care. But, yes, we're going to run out of time, so feel free to give a rebuttal and defend your Seth Bullock. But I just like, I don't think he was that great.

39:53Oti: You can only do so much with the character you're given, and Seth and Timothy delivers on Seth Bullock. Seth Bullock isn't the kind of guy who's gonna burst into song. He's not your EB. You know? Oh.

40:07KT: I disagree because

40:09KT: Ian McShane brought so much to that role. Because Al had so many layers to him.

40:09Oti: So does Seth in in in terms of he he's honorable. He does what is it's right and what's mandated. His brothers he took over his brother's wife and kid after the brother died.

40:09KT: Normal for the time.

40:09Oti: No. No. No one else would do that.

40:09KT: Was it isn't that, like, common practice from

40:33Oti: It's common practice. Not everyone did it. It's not like you're mandated to do it. You kind of have to. You know, you don't have to do it.

40:43KT: What society requires you to take about 18 in Kenya, would you have to follow that? Yes. You would.

40:43Oti: I wouldn't have to follow it. I can I can I can opt to take

40:52Oti: the seat my, you know, the my brother's wife? Yeah. I'm not required to do it.

40:52KT: Yes. You are. Because it's required to do

41:01KT: in love. It's based on the fact that there's livelihood. Again, we're not talking about African societies here. We're talking I'm trying to relate it to your circle. And that, my friend, is what you call a callback. We're referencing something we said earlier. But you're you're acting as if people have free agency and they can do things based on love. No, sir. There are obligations and there are traditions, and I can't believe I have to explain that to you. So Seth Bullock was obliged, and he had to do that.

41:33KT: Let's let's let's let's move on. Okay? I do agree that Seth Bullock was very important to the show, and his dynamic with Al was exemplary. And I loved seeing it. And it was made quite clear that the both of them couldn't be in the same room together for more than five minutes. It just because they were so similar and so different. So let's continue. YouTubes, who do you wanna talk about next?

42:01Oti: We can talk about Alma.

42:04KT: Oh. Oh, don't sound too excited. Again, this is why this is why I lead the conversation because you bring this up. How is this exciting? Okay. You go then. You go. So

42:16Oti: Molly Parker, we love her. You know? Alma Garrett is a is is a misunderstood character because there's a lot of hate for her character out there

42:16KT: Oh, really?

42:16Oti: Which I think is not is not correct.

42:16KT: I think it's warranted.

42:16Oti: It's not warranted at all. She does what's best for her. And, you know, the the moment in Deadwood in that period of time, women weren't really regarded in that, you know, high esteem to be able to run and do things, and we have Alma taking control of the gold mine and hiring Ellsworth

42:55Oti: to do it. You know? She did so much that the hate that she gets for being a lousy mother to Sofia or it's vices. You know? She was a druggie even before that, but she fought back and got herself out of out of druggies.

43:17KT: She meant a lot to the show because she literally served as a plot device. Every time the story needed to move along, it was all about her. Her husband squandered their fortune. Her husband dies. She gets with Bullock. She has an affair, a tryst, as they like to call it. She has a baby by baby daddy baby daddy Bullock. She gets pregnant. She doesn't have a baby. Oh, sorry. She yeah. And then, unfortunately, she has a miscarriage. Right? She marries Ellsworth.

43:51KT: Like, everything that she does is pivotal to the show because she literally serves as the plot device, and I'm not about to laugh. Same with EB. Do you see do you see how she left? She didn't stay in Deadwood in that ten year gap between series three and the movie. That town thrived while she was gone.

44:13Oti: Because of her body. Because of what she had laid because of the foundation she had laid in the

44:13KT: I'm going to blacklist that word. No. That's

44:24KT: how you know you're talking shit, because you start using the f word. Never again, cocksucker.

44:32Oti: She had laid a strong foundation for Deadwood to prosper. The bank was massive in that. The bank was massive in establishing a strong economic, status for for Deadwood. And we later see when she does come back, Arthur actually goes and says, oh, oh, your bank has been now doing well.

44:59KT: And she also gets shot at as well. Like, everything everything happens to her. She's the sandpit of plot device. She's she's Bullock's weakness.

45:08Oti: She drives the few times that we've seen Bullock really emotional other than when his son dies is when he has encounters with Alma.

45:20KT: Hang on a second. Can we just address in the movie when Alma ends up well, she she reads the room literally, and she ends up buying over Hearst, the land. Right? It's not Jim Beaver. Yeah. It is Jim Beaver. The land. And then in betwixt the hallway, Bullock mosey on in and gives her a hug. That was that was wrong. What was it wrong? Wrong? That was

45:50Oti: Because she knew how important it was for that land not to fall into Hearst's hands.

45:56KT: That was wrong to my Martha, my Skyler. Let's let's move on. So from a a weak woman to one of the strongest. And I would say if we're going to put the characters plus actors in tears, t I e r s, but they do give me literal tears. Ian McShane will always be at the top. Bullock isn't even on the pyramid. We kicked him off. Trixie.

46:26Oti: Trixie.

46:28KT: Is solid. It's solid, but she's stupid as. She is stupid, and I didn't care I didn't care for the movie. I thought that was completely out of character. It was just a way to move the story along. She does stupid things. It doesn't think there are consequences to her actions.

46:43Oti: The first stupid thing she did was to shoot

46:47Oti: The second stupid thing she did

46:47KT: near the end of the show, so you're negating all of the good things she did or all of the immense character development It works out everything she's done on the show.

46:57Oti: What did she think would happen? If you're going to shoot Hearst, make sure he's dead. You shoot you shoot him on his right shoulder. What the fuck is there to kill him?

47:08KT: Okay. Can can we focus? Are you saying there are no good moments with Trixie?

47:08Oti: There are good moments. I'm just saying it really was

47:16Oti: she loved Ellsworth. I get it. They were close. They were friends, and she'd gotten up to her head with what was happening between Hearst and Al and Seth. But, man, to to do that and not expect some sort of consequences because we know how that panned out, didn't we?

47:35KT: That was in the heat of the moment. That's fine. What what I didn't care for in regards to Trixie's character was in the movie where she decided to essentially reveal herself to Hearst, and Hearst made it quite abundantly clear. So, essentially, all of that effort that Al had to go through and not Dan. What was the other Jimmy. Jimmy. The the pain that Jimmy had to go through and the fact that Trixie was so

48:06Oti: Sorry. It's it's Johnny.

48:09KT: That's okay. Jimmy and Johnny? Yeah. I think they they're interchangeable. Whatever. You know who we're talking about. The guy with the beard. Oh.

48:22Oti: Everyone in the show.

48:24KT: Except for Bullock.

48:27Oti: His stash.

48:29KT: Yeah. See, his foundation for his face wasn't good enough. Okay. Yes. I didn't I didn't care for that because, for me, it was completely out of character. And because you got all your money's worth with Alma, you couldn't use her as a plot device. And that was the way to move it. And before we run out of time, and we do have some more characters, but we haven't actually talked about the movie. Yeah. Right? So this is this is the way I see it. Right? The end of season three, the funniest thing was

49:02KT: we watched the end of season three, and it didn't register. Like, I was still calculating in my mind. I didn't realize that the show had finished. That was the last episode that people actually got without knowing that the show was gonna come back. And I'm like, it wasn't, like, disappointing. It was kind of, like, lackluster, I guess, is the way to describe it because it doesn't really end. It kind of hints to you what's about to happen or what will happen, but nada. Like, nothing really happened.

49:36Oti: But you know what it is for me, though, the way it ended? I took it as, alright, Hearst has won. Yeah. Wild is crappy. Yeah. Bad people win all the time. Yep. And I was content.

49:53KT: And you know what? Copy and paste because the movie did the same thing.

49:53Oti: No. It didn't. It get people it pandered to people's feelings and emotions.

49:53KT: No. It did. It did. But what I'm saying is Hearst was in jail, but I don't think he's going to stay there. What have we learned in years of being on this earth? If you've got money, you can get your way out of crime.

50:16KT: Like, unless unless you've done really bad and you need to be made an example of, people with money and privilege get away with shit all the time. So and even then, like, Hearst just being in jail isn't enough to end it. We waited. Sorry. I feel bad. And, again, I feel like I didn't earn the movie.

50:33Oti: No. You did not.

50:35KT: I didn't earn the movie. I just finished three, strolled on by, got my popcorn, got my wine, and then I started watching the movie. Like, I didn't earn it. But in any case, it feels like what was the point of the movie aside from some nostalgia and feels, which we we definitely got. It really ends it fizzles, really.

50:57Oti: It does fizzle. And they've had this time to think of how they would do the movie.

51:05KT: I do like that it was ten years later, though. That was good. No one would have believed.

51:10Oti: Because we're given an ending where we get some character dying fine, which, you know, which was sad and pulled at your heartstrings, but really didn't do anything story wise or plot wise that we've invested the three seasons in to just come up with airy fairy sort of

51:10KT: Did you think Al was gonna die?

51:10Oti: Of course, Al died. That was the whole point. He finished with him dying.

51:10KT: He didn't dude, he didn't die. He was in his deathbed

51:44KT: pretty much. No. But Jewel was was it Jewel or Trixie? They were praying for him, and he said, tell the lord to go back to heaven or something. He didn't die. And then they showed his finger twitch. The last shot was his finger twitching. Superman where his hand comes from the coffin.

52:02Oti: His last like, a twitch of like, the final action of his like, you know, like an involuntary

52:09KT: mortal he died, but that's neither here nor there. Did he did die. I don't think he's yet. Alright. Do you wanna fight?

52:16Oti: Oh, he can continue. He was high. Clear. I don't know why you'd think or what do you think the purpose of that scene was? Then the movie would be essentially worthless until It was. It was. Why? Had to take it.

52:32KT: You know why he didn't die?

52:34KT: Because he's a celestial being.

52:34Oti: Oh, far out. He he made arrangements. He gave everything to Trixie. He made all these arrangements because he knew his time was up. In his deathbed, they say a prayer. He has a comeback. They pan into his hands. He twitches. He dies.

52:56KT: Soon to follow. Okay. I'm going to choose the next person because you keep derailing us, if you'll pardon the pun, because they get a train by the next one. Let's talk about Doc. Doc Cochran. He is one of my favorites as well. Yeah. He is a favorite. The doc is another character that has so many layers to him, and we didn't get to credit the actor, so shout out to Brad Dourif. Wow. Because one of the things that I really love about the doctor is he has this intrinsic

53:32KT: need to help people and to look after people. Even if he doesn't like them, even if their lack of morality disgusts him, he always needs to help people. So you'll see this, like, you'll see this switch in him where he gets, like, really pissed off at them, but he also helps them at the same time. And that just shows you the mark of a great person. And it was so sad to see when the doc started getting sick. Yeah. Because it's like, who looks after him? Right? True.

54:03Oti: I didn't expect him to be in the movie ten years on.

54:06KT: Yeah. And he looked a bit worse for wear, but we're not sure how much of that was makeup or not. But I'm glad he's doing okay. I hope.

54:15Oti: Yeah. Like, he he was coughing blood. He was really struggling towards the end of season three, and I thought that maybe it was something terminal. But to see him survive,

54:27KT: which is good because that town without Doc would not would not function at all. What I was wondering. In those ten years, there really isn't another doctor or another apprentice. They should have started training some more people. Sooner. Yeah. Exactly. But in the first season when Swedgen was kind of seen as the sort of villain of the show, it was it was really nice, and it was really refreshing to see the doc stand up for, you know, caring for people. That kid, Sofia Mhmm. He

55:02KT: didn't care. He wanted to protect her. He wanted to look after her, and he gave treatment to her. You know what I mean? And it was nice to see that humanity being exemplified through Doc's character.

55:14Oti: Yeah. True. He he does not suffer fools. He will tell you what he thinks, and he's just solid. He's he's one of the cent centerpiece of Deadwood. Without him, the town crumbles.

55:27KT: Oh, yeah. In in more ways than one. And let's talk about someone where the town probably will be absolutely fine, EB. How did you know I was going to say EB? What do you reckon?

55:43Oti: There's an EB everywhere. Like, he's slimy, sleazy. Self interest is his priority.

55:52KT: But he's not very competent. He is competent to to be get information, but he's not useful enough to be able to execute them himself.

56:02Oti: The fact that ten years on, he's still mayor of Deadwood tells you all you need to know.

56:02KT: No. The fact that someone like EB is the mayor of Deadwood means they're just like, fine. Just have it.

56:14KT: We're still gonna keep doing what we're doing, but you can be the mayor if it makes you feel better. He is the you know what you know what I'd put EB as? What?

56:23Oti: He is the politician. He is what stands as your current politician wherever you are. He is that kind of person. He plays the game better than most. If he was in House of Cards, Frank Underwood would not have a seat as president at all.

56:44KT: I don't I don't watch that show.

56:44Oti: Oh, you don't watch anything?

56:44KT: The recent cancel culture, I think I'm out of watching that show. I don't need to watch it now. Thank god.

56:52Oti: Thank god.

56:53KT: I don't know. It's just like, I know we have American listeners, and we stan. We love you guys. But, man, I'm kind of I'm kind of had enough. I've had my feel of, like, American politics or just, like, politics shows in general. Like, there's there was a big surge of it, right, in the last five or so years. So, like, I've I've seen enough. I've seen enough of those shows. Even, like like, legal procedural shows, those are kind of grating on me as well. But, anyway, let's continue. But, yes, EB, lots of inflated speech,

57:29KT: lots of empty gestures, lots of self interest, you said, but he doesn't really get anything done, really.

57:29Oti: He gets things done, I think. He's

57:39Oti: he gets information for Al. He's he gets information for Hearst. Like, he's always there. He'll always be in the background eavesdropping, trying to make even when even when Trixie went to shoot Hearst, he created a diversion. Like, people didn't know. He's cute. Yeah. I know. He's cute. So in as much as he tried to take credit for the shooting

58:02KT: Yeah. He did. As soon as he went into the Gem, he was like, I did it. I killed Hearst. Oh my goodness. But, yeah, I think he's he he gets validation from others, and people just don't really give him the time of day. But he's quick on his feet.

58:19Oti: He's quick on his feet. He thinks really even if it's to serve himself only, he does have value.

58:27KT: He does. He definitely does. So let's do a speed round just because I know we're hitting past the sweet spot, but it's still sweet. Let's let's do a speed round. So we'll catch we'll mention a character, and then each of us will talk about one or, like, one scene or quote or something that we like about that character or don't like. We're we're allowed to not stand things sometimes. Oh, this is sad. We haven't even mentioned Sol Star. We've been circling him, but not really.

59:01Oti: Does that say enough? Like Yeah. He's he's a Bullock's right hand man. He's he's efficient.

59:07KT: He's efficient. You don't need to update your software. He's efficient. He gets work done. He kind of he kind of gets offended when people say anti Semitic stuff, but he also understands the world that he lives in, and he just carries on. He calls Bullock on his bullshit. He does gives Bullock advice. So he serves some sort of reason and purpose in the show. Yeah. Definitely. So you're not gonna get much time, but we do appreciate your character. Calamity Jane.

59:39Oti: Farrah, there was a point in season two I was just done. Over it. Yeah. Just remove this character from my screen. Bloody hell. She was insufferable.

59:49KT: I think someone someone needs to invent a mechanism where we might even have to pay for it. If you don't like a character, you can pay for it. It'll just block them out. Is that not a Just get a just get a meme of a cut or something. I don't know. Yeah. Charlie Brooker, I'm calling you for the next season of Black Mirror. Just, like,

60:10KT: take them out of my show.

60:10Oti: I think the Black Mirror did an episode like that where you could erase people

60:15KT: No. That's real life people. Oh, yeah. Oh, we're talking about shit. Becomes, like, static noise. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because I I know about that because many times.

60:27Oti: If you wish to do that to a boy, come on now.

60:32KT: Let's just leave it there. But, Jane, man, she has so much potential, but she there were more annoyances with her than payoffs with her. And I don't know if it was just because they liked Robin and they wanted to just keep her acting and eating in the show. But, man, she got she got really annoying. It's like, you've said it so many times. Will you you and Will were never together. All of this feeling that you're feeling is fabricated in your mind, and there was a pivotal point that she was fighting with Utter? With

61:06KT: Utter. And and you were like, dude, like, Utter's known Will way longer than Jane has. Yeah. Like, where the fuck does she get off? Yeah. And even in the movie where Joanie essentially moves on, what what did Jane expect? She's so entitled.

61:24Oti: What? Bloody hell. You've got you've gone for ten years, come back, and expect Joanie to be, you know, hands up fucking air to welcome you back. Yeah. Far out.

61:35KT: I just I think she liked to play victim a lot Yeah. To be honest. But but she did she did have her redeeming quality. She even helped doc when they had to set up tents for people that got the flu. Before time goes away from us, do you wanna talk about your favorite character, the priest?

61:51Oti: Oh, dear. I was wrong with him? I don't understand. I don't know. Every time it came on screen, I just felt my body just cringing and my muscles just dancing into I couldn't stand it. It was just good that they took him off the show pretty quickly, and that's forgotten.

62:11KT: Yeah. I can't even see him in the cast list for HBO. So sorry I can't wow.

62:15Oti: HBO knew exactly what they did there. They listened to your fan mail? Yes. They did.

62:22KT: Listen. You don't need to have a movie. Just take his credit off the website. We don't need to see it. We've kind of talked about Cy Tolliver, but he was quite a pivotal character. So is there anything else you wanna say about Tolliver?

62:22Oti: He was pivotal until Hearst came, and then he just slowly faded into the background.

62:22KT: And Yeah. Because you don't really need him. He he's not the villain anymore. Yeah. His his main storyline was just now him and Joanie, and it was just I did like seeing Tolliver and Al team up, though.

62:51Oti: Yeah. It was it was good because that was when still Cy had his powers.

62:57Oti: But once came

62:57KT: What is this? A Marvel movie?

63:01Oti: Or still had his self dignity. But once Hearst came, thou wilt all the window, and it just became noise. It just became background noise.

63:10KT: But I I don't know. I think I I think he he was a great character. And something interesting, just a little tidbit about Powers, he actually auditioned for Al.

63:10Oti: Oh, really?

63:10KT: And he didn't get it. So and then he eventually got Tolliver. But I I liked him. I liked his acting, but I I don't know, man. Like, Ian McShane, he is a celestial being. He's not even of this world. His acting is exemplary, second to nobody. But, yes, I I did enjoy Powers, Cy Tolliver. Joanie, I feel like we talked about her.

63:47KT: But there's people we haven't even talked about. Do you wanna say anything about Joanie?

63:50Oti: I didn't see her purpose in this show at all. What was Joanie's use in this show? Like, seriously, was it was the point? Because I could take Joanie out of the storyline and what?

64:07KT: Is it because she's a woman?

64:09Oti: Not because she's a woman. Just I didn't see a point to her. Like, she didn't connect with other members of the community apart from Calamity Jane. She was the only main thing was that she owned a building where kids would later come to land there, but then she sold it.

64:29KT: Just To to be honest, I can't even answer your question. That's why I threw well, is it because she's a woman? Because I I know.

64:37Oti: I know. I know your tactics.

64:41KT: I'm sorry. You called my bluff. Charlie Utter. Charlie Utter and Will. We might as well put them together. Bill Hickok. I keep calling him Will. Whatever.

64:55Oti: Get over it. I was thinking Will from The Inbetweeners.

65:00KT: Feisty one you are.

65:02KT: I think it's our first Inbetweeners reference. Good one.

65:02Oti: Yeah. He's he's like the

65:07Oti: he

65:08Oti: he's happy to be a follower. Right?

65:08KT: Utter? Yeah. I don't think so. I think Utter has this beast inside of him. And for the most part, he tamed it. Because even Jane hinted to Utter and his life before Deadwood and how he was a fucking machine, essentially.

65:08Oti: No. He flies like a moth to people with power.

65:08KT: Second. It it came to I think it was in the movie, and Joanie saw that other side of Utter. And Jane's like, dude, I've been trying to tell you for years. There's something about Utter that is bestial

65:43KT: and animalistic.

65:45Oti: Yeah. I'm say yeah. I'm not saying that he's not he doesn't have his strengths or whatever, but all I'm saying is he surrounds himself with people with power. He went with Wild Bill. He went to Seth Bullock, and he tried following Seth Bullock like a puppy dog. Just he's he's he's a good character, though. But he's his own man. He's his own man to acquire. Remove his manhood. I'm not.

66:14KT: Because he's got udders.

66:17Oti: He needs validation on what he he he needs validation way too much, I reckon.

66:22KT: That's EB's thing. Don't take that away from me. No. Him too. Yeah. So that I think that's enough about Utter. We've kind of talked about we've talked about Farnum. Let's leave EB because we've got some others. Jim Beaver from Supernatural. And the fun thing about watching Deadwood after after years years of of watching watching other things is the faces become so clear to me when I'm watching Deadwood. And I guess because you've already watched it before you've watched other things, I'm like, that's that's Beaver. And that's not his name on Supernatural,

66:55KT: but his name is Jim Beaver. And I'm like I'm like, babe, that's Beaver from Supernatural. You're like, what are you talking about? But there you go. While we're here, Kristen Bell. You didn't even pick up that was Kristen Bell.

66:55Oti: No. I didn't.

66:55KT: No. Other co other guest stars we had, Sarah Paulson. We fucking stan.

66:55Oti: Oh, her character was awful in this.

66:55KT: Yes. But I didn't know that, and you spoiled it for me because I'm like, oh, she's great. You're like, no. She's not. And that's how I knew. She wasn't gonna be a good person.

67:27KT: Okay. Let's continue. Dan and Johnny. Dan Dan is amazing. I love Dan. I love Dan.

67:35Oti: He's the right hand man you need.

67:38KT: And you've said that so misplaced so many times through this podcast. And if you guys have listened to any of our podcast, Oti says that all the time, especially if you've ever watched Money Heist or you've listened to our episode, the most useless. If you could imagine the most useless character in the world, Oti said that the same thing about him. But, yes, don't.

67:38Oti: I said he you'd need someone like him to be in a

67:38KT: No. You don't. Let's okay, let's let's all take time from this. Listen to our Money Heist episode. You

68:11KT: can look at the extra cast for The Us movie in his red overalls and his scissors, Arturo. Let's go back. Dan is definitely your right hand man. You definitely want him in your camp. Yeah. He's loyal. He loves

68:25Oti: he loves Al. Oh, yes. Through and through. Like, he he seeks Al's valid you know, validation as well.

68:35KT: Oh, yeah. Everyone does. There's like a daddy complex. They should call it Daddywood.

68:40Oti: Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

68:57Oti: Oh, are you sure? You you do have a line?

69:00KT: Believe it or not, there is a filter before I say things, and that seemed to slip out. Don't look at me. Remember me different. Just keep going. I don't even remember what I'm talking about. We're just talking about Daddywood. Oh my god. Alright. So we have Dan.

69:23Oti: Anyway, he loves he loves Al, and you can see that Al respects Dan so much. He he gives him all the important roles, and if he doesn't give if if he doesn't go to Dan fast, then Dan gets jealous and angry and you know? Because he he's been so loyal at at And they've been through so much together as well. Identity as

69:47KT: well. And, you know, it's it's not blind loyalty either because he does he does wonder what Al's angle is, but he'll still follow it.

69:57Oti: Yeah. Yeah. His job is not a question.

70:00KT: And when he had that final showdown with that big giant band, I I I got emotional, I must say. Yeah. That was really something.

70:11Oti: And the eye popping out. Oh. Oh. No.

70:15KT: It's just wow. Oh.

70:18Oti: So Johnny is the lesser he's he's not the intelligent one of the of the two. Oh. But he tries. He really tries. Remember when he was trying to he deciphered Wu's message, and Al just smacked him? Yeah. Because Al is top dog. What are you doing? Disappointed the message before me. Know your place.

70:43KT: Oh, but when his lady love. Oh. That was very sad. And you could see that Al was torn up about that as well. But Because it's the first time he's shown actual balls to stand up against Al. But one of the biggest loves that Al has, and he's known her for the whole show, is Trixie. And, you know, we we talk about problematic people. And to a lesser extent, most people don't have a great childhood. Al had a horrific childhood. So did Trixie. So in his frame of reference, if you'll pardon the reference, he

71:20KT: we can go back to Daddywood if you oh my god. I started again. Okay. But Al loved as much as he could within the minute capacity that he had. Right? Mhmm. So it was a very hard situation. If if afforded another opportunity, I don't think Al would have sacrificed Johnny's lady love. Yeah. But he had to. And and I think everyone understood that, but it still it still had some pain to it. Mhmm. True. Agreed. Who's next?

71:56Oti: We can do Merrick and Blazanov.

72:04KT: I love Blazanov.

72:06Oti: Yeah.

72:07KT: He's great.

72:08Oti: Why do you think he's great?

72:12KT: Because he micromanaged. Listen to our Archer episode, guys. No. But I really liked him. I think he was very earnest in his I don't think he was wholly trying to assimilate into Deadwood, but he started to have connections within Deadwood, and he really cherished them. Yeah. Because he could have ignored that, you know, Tolliver tele telegram.

72:37Oti: Yeah. You could see at the start when EB wanted to find out what telegram Blazanov was sending, he was like, nope. Not showing you sacred oath, you know, I'm holding my things all secret and private. Yeah. But once he came to see how everything was being run and the heart and heart was evil, you could see that that goes beyond your general journalistic integrity to do actual good.

73:07KT: Oh, yeah. Totally. Just solid. Let's talk about Wu.

73:11Oti: Woah.

73:17KT: San Francisco. Was said almost 300 times in the series.

73:22Oti: How many times do they say fuck in this?

73:27KT: 3,000?

73:28KT: Variations or variations of fuck. Yeah. 2,900.

73:33Oti: Wow.

73:34KT: That's a lot of fucks. Considering there's only, like, 30 episodes. More fucks than the brothels that were in there. Jesus Christ. But I I did appreciate Wu's character. I thought, you know, very, very easily he could have become a caricature, but it might just be credit to Keone Young that played mister Wu. You could actually see the humanity in mister Wu's character, and you could see the lighter part of him and also the dark emotional moments that he had as well. Yeah. Especially when Lee was introduced in the show. Yeah.

74:17KT: But Wu and Wu and Al, I could I could watch hours of that dynamic till the end of time.

74:23Oti: And before we we even run out of time, do you wanna address Wolcott? So early in the show, they introduce this character who kills Wild Bill. He gets Bullock sends him, takes him to court over the killing or take him takes him to jail. Killed him. But anyway And then he comes back in season two as a different character. I was like, come on now.

74:51KT: I thought that was some mystical, like, you know, Easter egg, and it's all going to tie in. And these are all of the, you know, these are all of the things that you missed. But it's literally because within the set of Deadwood, apparently, there were a lot of rewrites that happened, and they would use the extras, and they would reuse actors as well.

75:14Oti: But he has been reused for pivotal roles. Like

75:14KT: Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally.

75:14Oti: And They're taking an opportunity for someone who could have used the high level. They might have just liked him, and he also appeared in the movie. Yeah. He he appeared in the movie as well. As as someone in as a rabbler. Rabble. Rabble. He must be best friends with this male chupassin.

75:33KT: Must be a good cocksucker.

75:38KT: Thank you. I

75:40KT: redeemed myself. Oh, man. I feel like we've got so many more people we need to get through. Martha, can I just say, I I feel like people didn't like Skyler because they watched her in Deadwood first? Skyler from Breaking Bad. Because Skyler is fine, and we've I think we've talked about Nani?

76:05Oti: Skyler in Breaking Bad is fine. Yeah.

76:08KT: Get out of here. Hang on a second. We've talked about it in two other podcast episodes, so let's not talk about it here. If you want us to do a Breaking Bad episode, which we'll probably do eventually, let us know. But, yes, Martha's character was very complicated. I think she played that role quite well. That's Anna Gunn. Pow pow. Don't let me don't let me outdoors. And going back to Wolcott, his name sounds like it belonged in Deadwood. His actual name is Garret Dillahunt.

76:45Oti: They should just use that. Right? Yeah.

76:48KT: Who else? Who else? We've talked about Sarah Paulson, Hearst. Langrishe, you wanna talk about Jack Langrishe played by Brian Cox?

76:58Oti: Al's old friend comes into town. He's very flamboyant.

77:00KT: I was kinda looking

77:04Oti: He doesn't know how to express his emotions or show his emotions, and you can see that his posse struggle with that. They think that he doesn't care when he actually does.

77:10KT: Which is weird because he's an actor and a performer, so he should be good at conveying his feelings. Or maybe he's just good in

77:20Oti: when he's being a thespian. You know?

77:23KT: Perhaps. Yeah. Or not to be. One of my favorite quotes from the show, I can't remember who it was. Was it Al?

77:36Oti: Or Cocksucker?

77:37KT: No. No. I actually think it was Tolliver. I think it was Tolliver outside of that Christian man that owns that 2¢ a day motel or bed. And the the quote was because he was he was wandering around outside. It was Tolliver, wasn't it? It was nighttime, and he was wandering around outside. And the owner the owner of the inn, I'll just call it, was asking Tolliver what he was doing out there. And Tolliver says, what is your claim to deity on my deference? Then the the owner of the inn just said, fuck off.

78:20KT: Like, really? That's how you wanna end it? Like, you really thought you got the upper hand there? No. I think don't think it was Tolliver, actually. I think that was Langrishe that said that. Oh, actually, yeah. Yeah. Oh, of my favorite moments. We haven't even talked about Richardson. Rest in peace, by the way. Yeah. Because the actor's passed away. I don't remember his name now, but he passed away. That's why he's not in the movie as well as Tolliver. But there was a moment where Langrishe was talking to his actor troupe,

78:48KT: and EB and Richardson were just staring at them, and they were being so dramatic. I don't even remember what they were talking about, but they were just being general performers, and they were being super dramatic. And Richardson goes to EB. Have they started performing yet? I love Richardson. He was so sweet. And his relationship with Aunt Lou. Yeah. And we haven't talked about Stoetler. Stoetler? The the man that owned the livery. The horses.

79:22Oti: Hostetler.

79:25KT: Yes. No? Yeah. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Let's let's not end on this because it's sad, but I do wanna talk about it because it is quite important.

79:34Oti: He kills himself because he gets too much abuse, and he can't handle it. Too much abuse, racist abuse to a point where he thinks taking my whole life surely is easier than dealing with this crap. Did you see that coming, though? I saw that. He was struggling. He was you know his hands are tied. He can't really react. He can't beat him. He can't beat a white person. Yeah. Once he does that, he gets killed anyway.

80:03Oti: So why not get out of this world in your own terms and just blow your bloody brains out, which I do not endorse on anyone. This is just more of talking in relation to the show.

80:13KT: I I didn't see that coming, though. I really didn't. I thought he was just gonna leave and never come back. No. But that's just sad. Yeah. Because he was struggling to even breathe. He was just Yeah. I know. He was really having He was reaching He was he was close to having a heart attack. Yeah. It was really it was really an intense scene and quite

80:33Oti: disturbing

80:34KT: if you think about the ins and outs of that. Yeah. And just just the way that because he was minding his own business for the most part. Yeah. It's very sad. Any other moments in the show? Do you feel a bit empty after the movie, or do do all of the good moments outshine that?

80:53Oti: All the good moments were in the TV show. The movie was just there as a hot tugger.

81:03KT: But, yeah, I want something else to be tagged? Can you still watch the movie? I'd refer you to the third season. Or you can tune in next week to my new podcast, Daddywood. Yeah. Alright. Goodness me. Yes. So let's let's capture off and go to For Your Reference. Before we do that, I do wanna close off with one of really, to be honest, I would love I'm sure a quote book of Al Swearengen's quotes of the show exists. And if it does, I would love that. I'm looking at you for Christmas time, Oti,

81:42KT: because he has so many profound, poetic, hilarious, debaucherous things, one liners that he says on the show. But I do wanna close off with this one because this really caught my attention. An opinion solicited does not equal one freely voiced.

82:03Oti: That's deep.

82:06KT: Yeah. It's got a firm foundation, doesn't it? We just we can't be serious for for too long. So let's capture off with For Your Reference.

82:20Oti: And I would recommend Justified just because Timothy Olyphant is kick assing that. It's a story about a sheriff. What do you what do you mean, boo? Justified is amazing. I think that was the universe whispering to you. Anyway, if you've not watched Justified, just give it a go. Timothy Olyphant is great in dimensions to him than he did in Justified, and you'll appreciate him as an actor. What would you recommend?

82:52KT: Oh, why thank you. How courteous of you, sir. I would recommend to be honest, I really don't know much about the country western genre. So I'm going to go off on the tangent of if you really enjoy well written shows that have setups and astounding payoffs, The Wire, which is also HBO. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Absolutely amazing. So The Wire is always, like, The Wire is always something that people talk about as a greatest show. That and Breaking Bad. There's even a Family Guy cutaway.

83:34KT: That's, like, that's literally all people talk about. So, yeah, so Justified and The Wire. So thanks so much for joining us. I think this is probably the longest episode we've done. Right? I think so. I think it has. So congratulations, guys. We've hit a milestone together. Thank you so much. We're very active on Twitter, but as as evident in this episode, Oti is to keep away from but on Twitter on Twitter, Instagram, and we're trying to be more active on Facebook. It's @ForYourRefPod.

84:14Oti: And if you wanna write us an email just to see how we're doing, it's hello@fyrpodcast.com.

84:20KT: And if you love us enough, please give us a review and a rating on our iTunes. Thanks, guys. See you. Love you, cocksuckers.