American Gangster – Nate and switch

Full transcript of American Gangster – Nate and switch.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. And as we reference Archer, light up. What? Small miracles. This podcast we like to think of as small miracles. If you're in a weird space in this panorama paninis, we do have a confusing Oti Shrek episode. We have an angry KT Legally Blonde episode. And I'm very excited to see what will be immortalized in this episode today. Let's get on with the show. Friends and lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT. And Oti.

1:03KT: Enter the criminal underbelly based on a true story of loud suits, dairy farmers, and my man. Mhmm. Get a taste of Blue Magic this week with American Gangster.

1:16Oti: Oh,

1:19KT: sniff, sniff, sniff. Wow. I'll do some sniffing. It's a Denzel film again. Released in 2007, we have director V capital T H E Ridley Scott. A first I believe for the For Your Reference podcast.

1:35Oti: Yep.

1:37KT: Writers, it is based off of an article, The Return of Superfly by Mark Jacobson, written by Steven Zaillian. What a cast Oti. Yeah. There is so much and I hope we can cover a lot of the cast top billing, of course, of course, of course, of course. Denzel, all of the wet pussies Washington. Immortalize me in that block Oti. Russell Crowe with Tugger all around the world. Chiwetel Ejiofor with his

2:07KT: little white strip of hair. We need to cover that one of these days. We do. I think if we reference something too much throughout the podcast, we need to cover that film. Mhmm. And Josh Brolin. There's a whole we've also got Cuba Gooding Junior. We also have a fella from Deadwood. John Hawkes. Nice. And Deadwood, our podcast is really the golden age of this podcast. So go and watch Deadwood just to delight your McShane McGinnies, but also go and check out the, I guess, the formation of the term daddy wood in our Deadwood episode. But

2:45KT: if this is the first time you are joining us, friends and lovers, if you are the Cheeto finger dusted American gangster poster of a more Film Bros, welcome to the podcast. I don't know if you're gonna be disappointed, but we love welcome you to sit on our Jupiter's cocks.

2:45Oti: Indeed.

2:45KT: And if you've listened to this podcast more than once, you will know and you shouldn't be surprised that we earn our explicit tag very early. All right, Oti. So let's get into first impressions. Because I don't think if we discussed

3:19KT: if you've had watched this film or if this was a first time watch. How did you feel if this was your first and how do you feel now?

3:19Oti: This is my second watch, but I really can't remember anything from my first. I think it was just in the background. I didn't really pay too much attention to it.

3:19KT: Feels like a Stephanie McMahon Triple H situation. I can wrestle podcast friends and lovers. Wow.

3:45Oti: But wow, I think this was really, really good. I enjoyed it. We've we've we've watched a lot of this sort of shows this year, and it felt like, you know, if you're pulling correlations with Snowfall or

3:59Oti: The Wire to an extent.

3:59KT: Yeah. Song Kang-ho's The Drug King if you're nasty.

4:05Oti: There's so much of it here and I think it's just my jam. Like Denzel, you know, being in this situation where he has to learn all those things, just freaking loved it. And the fact that no one even gave him a shot like, a black guy leading all this? Nah.

4:20KT: Not even. That's a very interesting point, which I'm sure we'll get to when we start to tease out the characters and I guess what they represent in the story and I guess even broader into real life. But there was definitely a comment there. There were a lot of some really primo lines that really, you know, underscored what was being touched on in the film.

4:20Oti: Absolutely.

4:20KT: Like, is there anything Denzel can't do? No. Well, he can't hold the legacy on for his seed. I've said many things, but that will stay on the Patreon Oti.

4:20Oti: Unless

5:00Oti: you release the KT John David Washington cut.

5:00KT: While we're speaking of the ever eternal Denzel, go and check out Training Day. And we do love Ethan Hawke. So we do have an episode on Training Day. We also have an episode on Fallen. We haven't covered Denzel this year. So this is our first Denzel of our third year of podcasting Oti. Nice. Speaking of who we've recently just covered, Russell Crowe, go and check out The Sum of Us. Mhmm. This was the first time I've watched this film. I've only

5:32KT: become familiar in it through title without any sort of context. I kind of just thought it it kind of laid in the tapestry of the greats, The Godfather, Scarface, insert other gangster sort of films. I I I I just assumed it was a film that I needed to watch. It didn't disappoint me like The Departed, but, again, that is Shielded and Patreon.

5:57Oti: Was this you held a you you thought this movie was held in such high esteem to Scarface and The Godfather?

5:57KT: Well, I think it's the name. It has a lot of gravitas,

6:08KT: like American Gangster. It has a very strong name. You must admit.

6:08Oti: No, didn't even think that.

6:08KT: It's got a strong name and a great ass. Wow. And I guess something that I was thinking about as well, because we never got into, I guess, to digress for a second. We never got a chance to watch our Wakandan king, Forest Whitaker's Godfather of Harlem. And I do believe he's playing Bumpy, who is the predecessor to Frank Lucas's character. Or Frank Lucas as a figure within life. Right?

6:46KT: So, yeah, without any sort of context, it's interesting. And I do like after, you know, the episode gets released, people like, KT, where have you been? I just assumed it was a classic because of the name, like American Gangster. It sounds like it needs to be in box set somewhere.

6:46Oti: Well, there's American Hustle. You're not you're not hearing anyone talk about it.

6:46KT: I'm sure there'll be a reboot of The Rock doing backflips on the moon. Mhmm. I'm sure they'll fit it in somehow.

7:17KT: But I really enjoyed this film. I really enjoyed it. I know we talk a lot about runtime, but man, this was like Avatar level runtime. Like, I think we got it guys. Like, think we can back up and go home now. I think that's the biggest if I were to have a qualm, it would be the run time of this film. Because I got it. I was in. And, you know, we talk about this a lot. You know, we recently covered Snowfall. Like, the the the format and the criminalization

7:49KT: of drugs kind of gets suspended in order to be able to be entertained by the genre. So in that sort of sense, we were primed and we were ready. Even though this is a film that didn't recently come out, we're used to this sort of format. So we're already highly engaged or wanting to be engaged and wanting to enjoy this film. Right? So it was hitting all of the marks. I must say,

8:16KT: I don't know if it's just like with the advancements of technology and people being able to make more movies, you know, it's like music was cherished so much more decades ago when you could only make so much music, but now you can make as much music as you want. I don't know what it is now or what the offerings are in acting in all different sort of ages, sexes, and genders. I really enjoyed Russell Crowe's accent. He like, it was effortlessly

8:45KT: an American accent coined by the brown Australian girl. I feel like he had a very good American accent without, you know, we make fun of Karl Urban as much as we love Karl Urban. I think we kind of just accept that he's not Michael Caine. Maybe he's like Michael Caine in that old man heist movie that Michael Caine was in. But there is there is an art to being an actor,

9:10KT: and Russell Crowe really achieved the American accent in this. I don't know. I just wanted to give some accolades. Because sometimes we just accept that, like Liam Neeson's. Like, you just accept that the accent is gonna drop off eventually.

9:22Oti: I don't even think it's there to start off with.

9:27KT: You stay inconsistent, you don't need to be consistent. It actually shows you the level of what actor you need to be, you know, where your accent means, you know, but you still get roles because it's your name. And that reminds me, go and listen to our Godfather episode where we talked about Marlon Brando, and you can do whatever the fuck you want at a certain point when you have a level of talent. But such a talented

9:49KT: cast of film all along the way, really. I yeah. I think the only gripe and the only qualm I would have would be the running time for this film. Everything else I enjoyed.

9:49Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Me too.

9:49KT: I think, I guess just starting to talk about the film, I really liked the dynamics that was starting to form within the film. When we start the film, we're meeting Frank Lucas as a very dutiful driver and I guess aspirationally as a 2IC. He might've been doing the grunt work, but he was loyal and he was reliable

10:24KT: and he was always with Bumpy when he was doing all of his community shit and when he was doing all of his criminal shit. Mhmm. So he was really getting some free internship sort of apprenticeship advice. Yeah. Paid internship. Well, that's an oxymoron. Right? I don't wanna go into this, but don't you remember Vince Vaughn and I think Owen Wilson had a film called Internship?

10:47Oti: Yeah. That gone to Google or something. Yeah. Skip ahead.

10:47KT: And

10:54KT: I'm the one that brought it up. There are hierarchies of watching stuff, and I don't think that even qualifies as a plain film. Wow. Yeah. Jesus Christ. But, yes, I I really enjoyed this film. I liked the way they were setting up the dynamics. We're in New York and, yeah, much like my naivety when we were covering You've Got Mail, I only understand New York through films. I understand there are like five boroughs of New York and usually there are big crime families that run it. And you've got different races that that oversee

11:31KT: the criminal underbelly. You've got the Italians. I think they also mentioned the Cubans. You've also got Bumpy. And they they all kind of have an understanding because it's not gonna work once you start fucking shit up. And Idris Elba is in this film, is he not?

11:31Oti: Yeah, he is.

11:31KT: I clocked it. I said he would be the first one to get shot. It was very obvious.

11:54Oti: They made it very obvious he was going to go. He was too ambitious. Not even. It was just disrespectful. He thought his shit don't stink. He thought he'd be the boss just because.

12:04KT: Think I think mine now. Yeah. Kinda like Manboy in Snowfall. Yeah. But weirdly, Manboy had more intelligence to him. Or at least he knew his place, or he knew to assume the place until he could, you know, clear until you get to the top. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I guess it's it's common even in in the Game of Thrones of it all, even in the Vikings of it all, even in the HBO Succession of it all. Whenever there is a new position to be filled and that position is the head,

12:39KT: there is always going to be some sort of conflict.

12:39Oti: Oh, definitely. I think once there's vacuum, there's always going to be someone coming for that spot. It was just a matter of time, know, you take Frank Lucas down, there'll always be another person on top of that regardless. And I think it was quite

12:54KT: interesting to see how Frank chose to lead. And I guess when he gave his guys some rope because the, you know, some you kind of need to give them space. Especially if they're like your Gustavo from Narcos or your Tommy from Power, like you kind of if they're going to be doing the dirty work and the terrible killings and the cloak and dagger shit of it all, they kind of need a release. Right? Or even like recently in The Chi with the trap house. Like you if they're going to be deplorable,

13:29KT: disgusting things that need to be done in order to maintain order, you kind of need to give them some rope. And I think Frank did very well in navigating how how much power he exerted

13:43KT: and when he kind of just let the men be.

13:43Oti: Yeah. Yeah. But he was very brutal. He he was very heavy handed with his leadership though.

13:43KT: With the piano?

13:55KT: And that was his cousin. Imagine some random guy. He probably doesn't walk out of that. Yeah. But isn't it like prison rules? Like you need to go and beat up the biggest toughest guy so people know not to fuck around with you? Yeah.

14:08Oti: But once you do such things, you know there'll always be a weak link.

14:08KT: Mate, this is a petri dish of toxic masculinity.

14:15KT: We don't have time for nuances. His nuances fell apart. They deteriorated in the piano case.

14:26Oti: True. He just needed to take better care of his people is all. But I think

14:31KT: there are some people that you just can't control like Nicky Barnes, Cuba Gooding Junior's character. Like you just couldn't control him and he didn't like the idea of being controlled because I guess far from him, but obvious to everyone else, he was never going to be someone that could effectively lead the community. No.

14:54Oti: And I wouldn't even put it as lead the community because I wouldn't say Frank Lucas led the community.

14:54KT: Okay. All right. I've

15:03KT: said a lot about economists and I've made it very clear that I'm not an economist, but one day friends and lovers, can we have a conversation about how a lot of the city budget doesn't account for criminal activities and donations therefore that are being contributed to political campaigns and also that help reinject money into the community. So sometimes the community just lives with it because at least they're getting something.

15:33Oti: Yeah. There is that aspect, but then there's another aspect of destroying and killing your own people. And I think Well, yeah. The one thing that this movie did quite well that I've not seen in, let's say, Snowfall, is show the brutal realities of what the effects of what Frank's drugs did to his community. They weren't tiptoeing around it. It was quite vivid. There was no romanticizing of anything that Frank was doing, which And think is

16:03Oti: I just applaud that aspect because sometimes we get into this sort of Narcos mode where we're like plomo or plata and we're like, just, you know, for the ride, but at the end of it

16:14KT: You can fly.

16:18KT: Key & Peele, friends and lovers.

16:18Oti: Yeah. You need to put your feet on the ground for a bit. And

16:18KT: Literally.

16:24KT: Look at that.

16:25Oti: And see what the fuck these things are doing to the community.

16:28KT: Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. Like, there are parts of ourselves, like, especially when you're watching older films, there there are comments of it's not even that old of a film, but like Legally Blonde, I laid it all on the table on how I felt about that film and even Coming to America. But in any case, when we watch a film, especially when it's not of our time, there are certain things that we, whether we can or not, we need to disband in order to enjoy it, right? And because there's so much fanfare around,

17:01KT: you know, the high and rising in the ranks of drug dealing and benefiting from drug dealing, you kind of have to suspend that. The same way, cheating's very normal. Right? So even if someone's cheating in a movie, you don't necessarily think they're a bad person. Well, if you're if you're Glenn Close, you're gonna have a bunny boiler problem. Otherwise but you see what I'm saying? Like, you kind of and if you don't, that's fine, but it's going to become a barrier. But I do agree a 100%. There is not necessarily a glamorization,

17:32KT: but there is definitely watching, albeit about Pablo Escobar and all of the destruction in order to be able to valor your ghoulies and really be able to enjoy it to a particular degree. And I definitely agree with you because that was one of the things that we were remarking on while we were watching this film. Because yes, Frank is aware and he's becoming rich and he's seeking opportunities to expand the Blue Magic of it all. He was also very aware of how it was affecting people, albeit he didn't care, but still

18:10KT: they didn't shy away from that. And this is a very another interesting element coming into this as well. And I think it also speaks to the enterprising nature of Frank Lucas because while there was so much focus, you know, the Pablo Escobar of it all, the El Chapo of it all, they were all focusing in South America. They were focusing on Mexico and they were looking for the drugs because that's traditionally at that point in time where all of the drugs were coming from. And it was kind of public knowledge to everyone,

18:42KT: the effects that the drugs were having with the American soldiers to some, the Vietnam War, to others, the American War. Right? The effects that were happening to the soldiers there. And while people are looking at the tragedy of the news, Frank found a very tragic solution. Yeah. He found a way to bring in the drugs at a higher purity. What do you call it? A high A high purity. Yeah. It was interesting. Albeit self destructive. And we also talked about it in our Mystery Road episode, brilliant Australian film and TV series. Drugs fucks

19:16KT: up a whole community, a whole country, but it kind of boosts the economy as well. So it's it it is more dangerous than your Twilight vampires,

19:26KT: probably as sexually leaching as True Blood. Who knows?

19:26Oti: But as long as I dole out some free chicken on the streets every other Sunday, then it's all good. You know? It's man, people are fucking sheep. It's the sort of it's the sort of mentality politicians have. You don't see them for the fucking entirety of their of their stay in power until it's election time when they come over with some cash and some fucking flour, and you're king. You know? Ugh. I think that's what disgusted me with Frank. There was this barrier to me

19:59Oti: liking him or even relating to him as a character because I felt like, a, he doesn't really care. You know, it was just a matter of him getting rich because as soon as he got the money, he he didn't do anything out of his way. He just wanted more. Even when he was told, you know, there's a time you can quit, you know? Yeah. Once they were all closing down, the restriction being spent natural close. Yeah. No, man. The guy just wanted more and more. Yeah. Just a greedy ass.

20:29KT: Okay. So I get so I get it Oti Mackie, drugs are bad. Like, I get that. But you also like, you really liked and defended Ghost from Power.

20:29Oti: Because

20:41Oti: he wants it to be better.

20:41KT: Or you just like or you just like drug men that are shit to their wives.

20:41Oti: Wanted to be better. You you know my stance with that. He wanted to be better, but he he was always being pulled back. So did Stringer Bell. Stringer Bell wanted to be better. Yeah. And I and I was rooting for Stringer to be better. Was rooting So Franklin. Franklin does not want to be better. Oi.

21:04KT: On, bro.

21:06Oti: At least Kolby and I are in the same position with Tasha being shit.

21:10KT: And that's why it's it's, you know You also don't like La la and you also don't like Cissy from Snowfall. Can tell you what the recurring theme is, sir. You're the you're the male villain in a Tyler Perry movie, sir.

21:32Oti: Jesus.

21:34KT: Cross it off your bingo cards, friends and lovers. Not that, but corrupt politicians. That's a carousel of topics that we like to cover especially Oti. But yeah, I thought it was I guess from

21:51KT: a strategic point of view, I just thought it was interesting that he found another angle to bring the drugs in.

21:51Oti: Yeah. He he was like, why should I go through some crooked cops when they themselves are cutting it down? Can we talk about it? Mhmm. Go straight to the sauce. Very entrepreneurial of him.

22:14KT: I think what I really liked about this film is it was so layered. It's very layered. From Frank's camps to all of the potential mutinies, also to the police, right? You have Richie Roberts, who's really well-to-do in the most well-to-do sort of ways. There was a very pointed quote by the wife, but we'll come to that in a second. I loved it. The writing in this was delightful. So you have Richie on, I guess, the side of justice,

22:54KT: if if if that's what you wanna call it. He kinda sounds like a vigilante in the night. But if you wanna say he was on the side of justice, arguably, definitely on the other side, you have Detective Trupo. Mhmm. And he was in it all for himself. Mhmm. Which is exactly what you were saying before. He was like, you're getting squeezed for money on all sides really.

22:54Oti: Yeah. Yeah, man. Like, Trupo was was the dunniest of cops. Think

23:21Oti: he would be shaming The Shield.

23:21KT: I

23:24KT: have some residual anger.

23:28Oti: But, yeah, he was the dunniest of them all, I think. The fact that we already said spoilers, but I knew from the get go, he was never going to really tie he's not the kind of person you'd see going to jail. No.

23:41KT: No.

23:42Oti: Because the minute he saw his friends all get locked up, was like, why not run? Maybe he's like, this is my country.

23:49KT: I thought this was America.

23:52Oti: The answer to everything. And, yeah, he just took his own life. I was like, yeah, this is quite what I expected. Yeah. Because it's like, there's there's no way out really. Well, he could have tried to run. Yeah. Because before they got to him, they'd arrested like a slew of his own gang. Okay. Archer nineteen 50 ruse.

24:16KT: Well, I I guess if he if he didn't want the prospects of going to jail because there would have been a whole mountain of evidence against him. Remember how Richie was trying to do his sting and then Trupo came in and took the money. So even that, like, they I'm pretty sure they had years and years worth of evidence against him because, like, we we've talked about this in, like, When They See Us and also, you know, more fictionally in Snowfall.

24:44KT: But, like, even though it's a few bad apples to maintain the the fact that the system is working, The police would continue to protect him until they couldn't protect him anymore.

24:44Oti: But how do you justify him living in a mansion and driving luxurious

24:58Oti: cars? Like, he wasn't hiding shit. Yeah. How do you justify that? No one bothered asking? I think it's barabund.

25:07KT: Am I saying words that make sense friends and lovers? Please don't comment below.

25:13Oti: It is insane.

25:15KT: But obviously, he symbolized more, and and and I think his particular character was a culmination of characters as well or people that existed that were condensed together. But, yeah, he obviously was a problem, but he's also not unique. Right? It's like, how do these things keep happening? Like, this isn't Scooby Doo where, you know, criminals do the darndest things.

25:44KT: He would have got away with it too if it wasn't for scrappy Richie Roberts, like Oh, wow. Like, it it it's it's obvious that people are embedded within the system for this to work, like season two of The Wire. Like, there there's no way that higher crime can be done unless there's a blind eye somewhere. Mhmm. Right? And I guess that's where Trupo stands. But let's talk a little bit about Richie. Wow. You know,

26:13KT: I'm not even gonna repeat it because that's that's your reward if you got all the way to the end of our Few Good Men episode.

26:20KT: But I guess in regards to that particular comment, I can see why people would see Russell Crowe the way they do. Wow. And I don't see the Tom Cruise thing, but again, go on. We'll just fast forward to the end of A Few Good Men, but I'm not gonna you won't get that sound bite out of me today.

26:20Oti: Well, he's as straight as they come though, you know?

26:20KT: Is he though?

26:20Oti: He is.

26:41Oti: How many people do you know who can give back $1,000,000?

26:46KT: That's like she was sucking my dick, but I didn't penetrate her mate. Self control is key.

26:53Oti: What's the respect on people out there?

26:56KT: Come on. I didn't cheat on you, baby. Well, let's talk about it because so he has this sense of justice and he was he did he did remind me of McNulty, albeit this was around actually, no, this was around the time of The Wire. So he reminded me of McNulty in the sense that and I think there was even quoted in The Wire,

27:21KT: you're not good for anything else. Like you're police, but you're not good for anything or anyone else. And I'm pretty sure his best friend Bunk said that, which makes it even more stinging. But Richie was the same way. Like, we can talk about him as a police and how good he is, you know, the relative good and evil. But he was also a shit husband and a shit dad. So it's like, if you wanna get your Oti abacus out, it kind of doesn't really equate.

27:52KT: And the wife said something to the effect of, you're going to the same hell with the crooked cops you can't stand. Yeah.

28:00Oti: Because he like you said, life is fucking complex. You know, he he can be the best cop there is out there, but there's another facet where he's a crap father and a crap husband.

28:13KT: You know, Well, I'm pretty sure I was quoted to say shit father, shit husband, but yes.

28:19Oti: But the interesting thing for me is that he's got this dogged determination to just, you know, catch the bad guy and, you know, just point him in a direction and that's all he's good for. Yeah. And I think to some extent, you know, he even became a pariah with his own police officers because they couldn't trust it because who the hell gives back a million dollars untouched?

28:43Oti: Yeah. You know? And after that, his job wasn't really doable because they couldn't even back him up. Yeah. Because he's alone out there because if he's doing that, he could snitch on any other cop. If you do something dirty, which I'm assuming every other cop was.

28:43KT: Well, think about it. It was almost a million dollars

29:00KT: and he turned that money in. Because I got confused and you had to explain that part to me. Because I was like, yeah, you did the right thing. But if these guys are crooked, they need to know that they are Denzel rolling in the Training Day dirt with him. Right?

29:16KT: So like it took me a while to wrap my head around that, but I guess that makes sense. Right? Because if you're if you're doing dirty, you want to make sure that people at least aren't going to catch you out. Yeah. And almost a million dollars. Right? True. But can let's let's let's come to the ending. Obviously, are other characters that I wanna go through. But this is important because we're talking about Richie and how he might not be a good well, he definitely

29:41KT: is is not a good husband and he's not a good father. So we've established that. He looks like a good fucker though. The biggest motherfucker. But so so really, the only beacon of hope he has is that he has a sense of justice and he fights for what's right. Cool. We're all up to speed in our comprehension class friends and lovers. We've got that. Mhmm. However, we get to the end of the film where Frank Lucas decides to share all of his information.

30:11KT: I guess people can decide however they feel about Frank for snitching. But then once he gets out, Richie works with him. So we we go through this moral quandary and, you know, Frank being super slick is like, oh, you turned down a million dollars once, can you do it again? So there was that tempting, right? There was that tempting in the wilderness.

30:33KT: And then it turns out he ends up helping to get him out of jail, right? So it's like, what was this all for then? Because he saw everyone he walked with was fucking corrupt. Might as well stand him. That sounds like the most simplistic way to explain Joker.

30:53Oti: But, you know, once you've put that many cops, you've arrested that many cops, you just have to ask yourself, you know, is it fucking worth it? And to him, was like, nah.

31:07KT: But then if if all you had was your, I guess, for lack of better word, moral fiber in regards to crime, and that all gets undone in the nth hour, then what do you have, sir? What was this long run time for? Albeit an enjoyable film, but what was the point of the film if that was the only sort of credence he had?

31:07Oti: What didn't seem plausible to me is the case of Frank Lewis Lucas would have been one of the biggest

31:39KT: Oh, yeah.

31:39Oti: High profile cases that makes, you know, district attorneys into to go into political streamlines, you know? Oh, yeah. And then this guy who just passes the bar in Richie Roberts, he gets that case. He he's the DA for that case. I'm like, how?

31:57KT: How is this even possible? If you're gonna do a crime, do a big crime femme. That doesn't even ask the question. KT from the For Your Reference podcast twenty twenty one, baby.

32:08Oti: Wow. Yeah. I was just looking at it, I'm like

32:11KT: Or shall I shall I repurpose YG? Big crime take little crime. Maybe so. You just need to do big big enough crime

32:20KT: with enough people that you can throw others under the bus. That's what you need to be doing, I guess.

32:20Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that a 100%. You know, you can go and rob a liquor store and you'll get pretty much alive if anything else. And you get people like Frank Lucas out in five years because they

32:40KT: It's the currency. Yep. He had a lot of criminal currency. I guess it's disheartening, but I guess it's on brand for real life, I suppose. It is. Well, were you expecting any sort of I guess even though it is based on a person, but we didn't really know anything. Were you expecting any sort of real justice?

33:00Oti: No. Not really. Because I don't think we saw much justice in way of crooked cops or with crime. No. I wonder how how long the cops even got sentenced for. Probably out after the next day, but Yeah. Such is life. Embroid that shit on a pillow.

33:19KT: Yeah. I don't know. Because I was really enjoying Richie's character until the end because I'm just like, what's the point then? You put up this task force and you're you're right. You're absolutely right. And it was interesting to see, I guess, the investigation unfold because Frank Lucas was a big question mark until he decided to Heisenberg himself, Breaking Bad reference. No one knew who he was. No one really had any photos of him until he turned up with that coat at the boxing match. Which was fucking ridiculous.

33:52KT: But you like when Heisenberg did it, when Walter White did it. He beats,

33:56Oti: He called off he called out Huey Lucas, told him, stop dressing fancy. In loud suits. In literally, like, the first ten minutes or ten twenty minutes of the movie. Yeah. You know? Be calm. And then he fucking wears a chinchilla coat, fur coat into some high profile boxing with red carpet. I'm like, Yeah. Who's this guy? Clearly, as soon as Richie saw that, he was like, let me take a picture of this guy. Like, don't know what this is, but it's it's something. Yeah. It's something.

34:27Oti: I've never seen him. Don't know who this is, but it's something. But it was also because the bosses

34:33KT: of particular boroughs were respecting him, and he got a better seat than them. That's where the cogs were turning as well. Yeah. But you don't have to go out and start, especially when he did say it to his brother because he was comparing him to Nicky Barnes. Yeah. And he's like, you don't He's like, it's too loud. It's too jazzy, sir. He was way louder than Nicky ever was. Well, I guess in his sense, it's a different set of rules maybe, or he only did it once,

35:02KT: therefore it's not too much of a problem.

35:02Oti: Yeah. He just thought his shit don't stank, man.

35:02KT: Well, your Walter White shit stank, so evaluate that too.

35:02Oti: How how can you even compare the two?

35:02KT: No. I guess, well, without spoilers, because I guess some people might not have watched Breaking Bad, but it got to a point where Walter White wanted people to know. He wanted to be the one that references. Fuck you guys. That's what you get for wanting the real quote. No, but it's like, if you want the anonymity, you can't get that prestige.

35:38KT: That's the trade off.

35:38Oti: But do you really even care with all of I guess I guess yeah. True. True. No. It's just interesting where you allow it in some characters and you don't allow No. It's just weird. He talks about his principles,

35:51Oti: beats up people for his principles, and then goes

35:51KT: Going to White had principles too, apparently, and Skyler was the problem. Let me know when we're ready to talk about how we criminalize and we villainize Skyler. Okay? Because when we're ready for that friends and lovers, I know that there's some real healing that can happen in the world. Let me give you a thesis on her.

36:16Oti: No. We're an advice you should watch anyway.

36:18KT: It's No. You just don't wanna talk about Skyler.

36:22Oti: We'll probably save it for a Ref Plus or some shit. But anyway, Frank, that was the one moment in the move like, the I've mentioned two already Yeah. Which just just didn't seem plausible. But Frank walking in there without a fur coat, even if it's it's this evil lady, the wife that gave it to him, nah, you just don't do that shit.

36:22KT: Yeah. Yeah. No, it didn't make sense. And obviously he wanted the king shit treatment,

36:49KT: but that also means you get king shit attention. Yep. So I guess we saw that's where it started to crumble because really there was no tangible leads. They knew someone was being reported to. It even got to a point where Richie was wondering who Frank was reporting to. He didn't think that he was the one bringing There's in the no He could've yeah. He could've just skated by. Yeah. There's no way they would've thought a black guy was leading this. Interesting. Let's talk about that. Mhmm. I guess racism.

37:20KT: Is that the easiest and most complex answer? I think so.

37:24Oti: Well, if you're a criminal, you want them to be as racist as fuck to undermine you then.

37:24KT: Right.

37:24Oti: Because then they'll never suspect you.

37:24KT: So

37:32KT: I guess the advice here is, and you didn't hear it, but do a crime that your race isn't expected to do. Yep. And you'll be fine.

37:43Oti: Oh, dear. Oh, just don't live on what's that guy's name that was trying to frame black people and leave watermelon rinds and shit? Manson. Yep.

37:54KT: Crime happens in all shapes and races forms, friends and lovers. But it it was it was definitely one of those quotes where it's like that Leonardo pointing at the screen, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, where you're like, ah, they did a commentary. That's it. All enraptured in that quote. Mhmm. Can't be a black guy. Just

38:16Oti: there you go. Well, Richie pretty much gets laughed out of the office because he's like, Frank Lucas leads this thing. Well, no.

38:23KT: Because that's part of the problem. And I don't obviously, we're not cops or anything in real life. But, like, that's the problem. You can't make claims. You need your evidence. Because he didn't really have anything at that point. They could have listened because he was like, what do you mean? You think Italians will let this happen? The rainbow coalition. Go and listen to our Judas and the Messiah. I didn't misspeak. Why Oti?

38:49Oti: We both know. We all know rather that Jesus was black. So the black is redundant. Yep.

38:55KT: And also we covered it on Patreon, StartUp with Edi Gathegi and The Brody, your Brody fellow from The OC. Yep. Because I guess people underestimate that sometimes different races can find a common enemy. Mhmm. They can work together in peace and harmony. There was some there was some really good quotes in the film. I've got a couple that I wanna go through. This is also in regards to Richie and they're trying to figure out, I guess, the big question mark.

39:26KT: Who is this person? Do you remember back in the day where they used to play Pokemon in the commercial ads, they used to have the outline of the Pokemon? Sad life for you. But the quote was, who can afford to sell twice as good for half as much? And I guess it's also they were seeing the changing behaviors

39:45KT: of the crime game, of the drug game. Because things like it had been not watered down, but the quality, the purity of it had been played with around so much. Right? I And guess that was part of the problem as well that people were overdosing because they were so used to it being so diluted.

40:03Oti: Yep. That's how Richard loses his partner. Yeah. Yeah.

40:07KT: And very interesting. And I think it was interesting the way that they chose to write Richie's character in particular with his partner as well. Because it's like, obviously he had some sort of allegiance to take care of his partner, but it got to a point where it's like, dude, you killed a drug deal. Like I can't protect you. I guess in the film in particular, we were seeing a shifting of operations and then profit margins and how could it possibly be. If everyone's getting the drugs from one supplier,

40:38KT: then how is it possible? And I guess that's the other element and that's the enterprising nature of Frank Lucas and what he introduced in the film. Oti, I just wanna I wanna come to you for a second because it's been a couple of days since we've watched the film. So I just wanna have a look at the parents guide on IMDb

40:55KT: because we're not about the kids, but we do love our daddies. Yes. I'm speaking on behalf of both of us. Sex and nudity, severe. Oh, actually, no. That that's a good point. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. So usually when there's cooking up going on, you'll see people in their underwear. Yeah. So again, our reference of things is through TV shows and movies. Don't report us. So that's fine. There are a lot of titties in this. Yeah. And there were pussies as well, but it didn't feel gratuitous.

41:23KT: Like I think that's the most amount of titties I've seen in a film, but it didn't feel gratuitous.

41:28Oti: Well, Lauren's zooming in or some shit, you know? Like Joss Whedon. I wasn't getting up up shots. I hadn't even forgotten about that. Right. Interesting.

41:42KT: Because like, I guess I agree that there was a lot of nudity, but it wasn't severe in the intensity or the gratuity of it. Yeah, true. Violence and gore, severe. House.

41:53Oti: Maybe we just desensitize now to shit. Yeah, maybe.

41:57KT: Maybe. Profanity, severe. I can't remember any profanity. I think Deadwood is my level of profanity. There were a lot of fucks in Deadwood. But

42:08KT: yeah, anyway, but I thought that was quite interesting to go through.

42:08Oti: Well, it is struck and it caught with me with all those three ratings there.

42:16KT: Yeah. But I guess, like you said, it's it's different now. So if you compare a film many many years ago to now, obviously, it's not going to stand a chance. Mhmm. Let's talk about Frank's family. He had a lot of brothers. He did. Which I think is very useful if you need some fronts and you need to launder some money. Which he did. Which he did. He brought his whole family down. A family business, a Family Affair, Mary J. Blige if you're nasty.

42:16Oti: But, you know,

42:44Oti: they knew what he did. Like the mom said, you know, your brothers will do whatever it is he said. But the point towards the end where the mom is like, we don't kill police, Franklin. If you kill the police, I will I will I will disown you. I would so I'm like, yeah. Come on now. You know the game. You know what this is. You know your son how your son is getting the money. You're standing in a fucking palace, mate. You just told him how proud you are when you when you got as he got into the house.

43:12Oti: How did you think this driver got all this money? Yeah.

43:18KT: T. I. Was also in this film as well. He was supposed to be a promising baseball player. Yeah. There was quite a lot of there was quite a lot of guest stars in this film. How did you feel how did you feel about Chiwetel's

43:31KT: character?

43:31Oti: They're all dumb. I don't think there's any

43:31KT: Woah. Even Huey.

43:31Oti: What exactly did they all do that warranted any sort of or or gave out an essence of intelligence in anything that they did?

43:31KT: Well, when you phrase it like that

43:31Oti: My God, he couldn't even get away from Richie.

43:51KT: Yeah.

43:52Oti: Ugh, come on.

43:52KT: Well, I can't even bring a defense there.

43:52Oti: Plus he was driving around Frank Lucas with a with a truck full of coke in the bag.

43:52KT: Yeah. Actually, okay.

43:52Oti: Nah. Nah. Nah. How do you even excuse that? Are you dumb? Yeah. He was just they're all just dumb. I don't even know if Frank would have been better off just hiring, getting professional people. Because there's nothing it wasn't anything he didn't get any sort of loyalty because his own cousin GB gave him up.

44:19KT: Well, yeah. If there was a weak link Effie Eltis, it was definitely going to be him. Yeah. I think, well, I guess maybe it's just the way that the film framed it, if you'll pardon the pun. But it seemed like Frank Lucas was really the only option to take the mantle. Yeah. There is a very sweet kill and I'm talking about Tango's character. He really was fine to muscle on in. And again, it was me

44:46KT: because it's it's rare that you have a film that doesn't explain everything to you. And this is when I realized and humble myself that I'm not as smart as I think I am because without them explaining it, I wasn't understanding it like the way that no one trusted Richie. But also in this sense, I didn't understand why Tango kept trying to muscle in and you're explaining to me it's because Frank was supplying the drugs. It wasn't his corners. They were Tango's corners. Right? So Tango kept coming in with his 20%, give me 20%.

45:17KT: And the way he died was great because never ever ever ever have I watched a film or a TV show where you have not necessarily a dickhead, but you have a character sizing the other person up and you're like, shoot me. Come on. Shoot me. Motherfucker got shot. Like, when does that ever happened? People don't joke in this film. If they're gonna shoot you, they're not going to have a mustache twirling speech. They're gonna fucking shoot you. Mhmm. And then they left the change with him. Oh,

45:50KT: that was I've never played Yakuza, but that felt like a very Yakuza kill, Oti. Wow.

45:55Oti: Yeah. That was that was quite something to that was something to behold. And the fact that no one even bother or give a shit, no one reported maybe because Frank fed the neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't even seem like a likable guy anyway,

46:10Oti: so there's that.

46:10KT: No. He always plays that I'm better than you, but I end up getting shot. He needs us to go back to Luther. We need some more seasons of Luther. Luther? I think there's a film coming out soon, isn't it? Oh, interesting. Hopefully, Ruth Wilson. We love Ruth Wilson as well. Speaking of someone that we love that I don't know if this work, because say what you will about Tango, but it just all kind of fit the archetype of Tango. Yeah?

46:38KT: Common was in this film as well. Oh. And I think maybe aside from Method Man, Common is probably the next rapper that's appeared in our podcast the most. Just by accident, by default, by divine combination.

46:51KT: Who knows?

46:51Oti: I just expect a speech every time I say Common. But he was evil in this. That's what I didn't understand. He was doing the crime. I wonder how hard he fought just trying to preach to everyone there.

47:03KT: It was some heavy editing.

47:05Oti: Yeah. It was probably like Nas and Belly. Just

47:12KT: Go and check out our Belly episode, friends and lovers. Method Man's also in there, is he not? You know, we've done back to back Method Man with Belly and Concrete Cowboy. Wow. Yeah. You're welcome. We're all welcome, Friends and Lovers. Is there anything else you want to cover, my love?

47:12Oti: No, that's all.

47:12KT: Theo says hi, friends and lovers. You can probably hear him frustratingly in the background. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

47:40Oti: I will reference Snowfall.

47:43KT: Nice. Because you love Cissy Saint so much. Hey? Yep.

47:48Oti: Get your Cissy fix.

47:50KT: And also, I don't think we explicitly said it, but Frank Lucas did remind me of Franklin as well. So very excited for the next season of Snowfall to come out. I will reference Song Kang-ho, the daddy of South Korea, and worldwide cinema, The Drug King.

47:50Oti: Oh, look at you.

47:50KT: Yeah. Look at me. If you'd like to look at us looking at you, don't worry about how we're doing it on Twitter and Instagram. We're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

48:21KT: We're also at loud suits podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.