Venom – Symbiote Semantics

Full transcript of Venom – Symbiote Semantics.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and we've got another

0:05Oti: what's that?

0:06KT: Oh, I'm just

0:08Oti: on the web shooter.

0:09KT: Yeah, what do you think this gesture was, Oti?

0:11Oti: I don't know. I thought it had to do with Cletus or some shit.

0:14KT: Well, I can show you my clitoris in a second. New episode title, fam, we up! Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends! And moffing lovers! I feel like I sound like Will from the Inbetweeners.

0:38Oti: The number are.

0:43KT: Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host,

0:46Oti: And Oti.

0:48KT: Dive into the artful world of comics where we don't allow our limited expectation of what a film could be to full on sploosh down to Venom Mountain. We are covering the Venom Trilogy. Some might even call it the Goated MJ Trilogy. Venom, Let There Be Carnage, The Last Dance, friends and lovers. Don't address me in

1:25Oti: address me unless it is four letters, fam. I'm

1:31KT: Oh man, I am feeling so good, Oti. How are you feeling?

1:36Oti: Oh, good. Good. Bittersweet, I'd say.

1:40KT: Yeah. Are you playing the Charlie Puth? I am personally very excited because while I am a very serious non serious wanker about very real shit about life and I do like my sad lonely little films, I actually have a really a lot of fun with cinema.

2:03Oti: Yeah, I just had wanker there. So, I'd agree with that.

2:07KT: Well, it's for the wank banks, Oti. I'm very excited because I think it also surprises a lot of people like even people that have been in our film circles For a while and our heart chambers forever. I think it surprises people that I can get down with some Venom or some Fast and the Furious, for example, even though Tokyo Drift, they were in the same age demographic, but I just can't deal with, uh, pretentious shit. So I'm very excited to talk about Venom today. I will continue to bully Tom Hardy, friends and lovers. We do need another Taboo. But let's get into this trilogy, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, friendship, friendship, friendship.

3:03KT: You want to give us your quotes, Oti?

3:07Oti: Yeah, uh, we just go back and forth between each. So back to back.

3:11KT: I like that reference.

3:13Oti: So for Venom, uh, the first installment, I had: Pacing issues aside, Venom establishes the quirky Brock-Venom dynamic perfectly. A fun setup that hints at the chaos to come without overdoing it.

3:32KT: Venom tried something new in a familiar world of pop culture. The foundation built on fleshing out Brock's character and motivations made it stand on its own as canon.

4:05Oti: Oh, nice.

4:08KT: I enjoyed it. It was a solid. Do you think? Your thought thinkings would have changed if you had watched it at the time, because, actually we'll leave that, because the general sort of reception to the franchise is something, unfortunately, to behold. So I guess we'll put a bookmark there, my love. Let's continue.

4:31Oti: Best of the series. Crazy, fun, and full of Brock and Venom's dynamic. Skipping heavy world-building lets us dive into their characters. Hits all the right notes!

4:48KT: shoutouts to Sims.

4:49Oti: Sims. Mhmm.

4:51KT: You got the keys to the bloodclaat bimmer?

4:53Oti: Bloodclaat, bimmer? Oh, Who else would?

4:56KT: I feel like there's a Candyman. I feel like if I say that one more time in the podcast, they're gonna come for me. Let There Be Carnage allowed itself to tap into human emotions without the manipulation of family friendly fanfare. Sure, it's a simple cautionary tale of how far you will go for love, but it is also bolstered by the power of friendship.

5:24Oti: Yeah, I like that. Because it sort of got out of its way to just be fun.

5:31KT: It leaned in.

5:32Oti: Yeah. And you know, And this is where I'm like, with everything that we've watched in terms of superhero movies, where Marvel wants to be so serious all the time, with... Yeah, and you have this angle where DC's going with things like, uh, Peacemaker. and, you know, like I'm just enjoying that. Just take me out of the bullshit and I'm fine. It's not that I didn't enjoy the Avengers sort of movies because I loved

6:07KT: It was a time.

6:08Oti: And now I just can't find myself going back to that again. I can't watch Loki or watch, Wonder Woman. It's not Wonder Woman? What's it called? Wonder Vision.

6:19KT: Just know you don't want to watch women.

6:23Oti: What Vision. Wonder Vision. Watch, like Agatha All Along

6:28KT: like it's enough.

6:29Oti: exhausted fam. I can't watch a series to watch a series to to follow a story in the movie too. no I'm tired

6:36KT: but even if they assure you that you don't need to watch the others to watch the others it's it's so cut and dry like you know what it's going to be anyway.

6:44Oti: I love me some Mackie, but I couldn't just watch that See I could not

6:48KT: keep those secrets.

6:49Oti: Yeah, i'ma i'ma keep that like I'm looking forward to When Captain America comes out next year, because it will be Mackie's first installation as that, and you know, they better be doing that advertisement, because I've not seen enough of it, but I'm ready.

7:05KT: I just want to lay our collective love and splooshes to Anthony Mackie, who we love. love, love. I, I recently saw a tweet, and someone was saying that they were at an event that Anthony Mackie was at. And he wouldn't take any but they also said later on that he chopped it up with them. Like he had a whole conversation with them. He just didn't want to take a... Fair. Leave our man's alone.

7:34Oti: I don't want to take some janky ass picture with you. all right, man.

7:38KT: But like the fact that he wants to connect, isn't that more

7:41Oti: Yeah, conversation is where you get up. And if you want more than that, fam.

7:46KT: Right?

7:47Oti: What are we doing?

7:49KT: Anyway, this is an Anthony Mackie Stan podcast, friends and lovers, if you didn't already know.

7:54Oti: Mm hmm.

7:55KT: Uh, let's get into The Last Dance.

7:58Oti: Oh, I had: A missed opportunity for a great send-off. Too many new elements made it feel like a reset instead of a finale. Still fun, but lacked the punch I hoped for.

8:13KT: An adequate goodbye to a fun trilogy that dared to have fun before the world building got too serious. Bruh! Okay. We need to talk generally, but your gal was having a whole Avatar situation, but we'll get to that, uh, in a moment Before we, uh, I guess, collectively talk about the themes and characters throughout the trilogy. I just want to have a wanky critic, podcaster, film lover, topic with your what the fuck is up everyone's ass. Cause this was a lot of fun.

9:00Oti: It was, I found myself thoroughly enjoying the rewatch for the second And even watching the first one, because in my head I thought I would watch it before, it still felt, you know, like there's, it's the pilot so you know there'll be a bit more pacing issues, which I took to the chin, but it still was fun at the end of it. And then the second one just allowed itself to be. And I love that. I love the dynamic between Brock and Venom and just how they bounced off each other and. how they interacted with everyone else in the world.

9:43Oti: And then we come to and and I guess the issues with the with The Last Dance for me is

9:54KT: Oh, we're getting straight to it,

9:56Oti: think there's no other way because it's it's still overshadowing everything I feel about the franchise as a whole Is We get a chance to just be in this world. It's The Last Dance. Let's go out with a bang And we find ourselves tethered to new people we don't even care about. Trying to go all along like Ooh, I'm Eddie Brock. I'm now angry at Venom at each and every time. I'm like fam, I get it. This is like your Logan moment. But, can we just breathe a little I felt like If Logan had not happened, maybe we'd get a bit more

10:38KT: I don't think Logan's the reason, but

10:40Oti: No, like, I think they saw Logan and they felt like the last hurrah needs to be something like that.

10:45KT: Yeah.

10:46Oti: And They should just divorce themselves from that. It's completely two different things.

10:52KT: the soundtrack that they had. You know what song was missing from this? I don't know what it's called. But it's that, it's that stock standard white person song. Everybody Everybody cries. Man. I just. You know what? And it's like, if we were to talk about cardinal sins in television and in film, for television in particular, you never introduce a new character slash subplot in the last season of a TV show. And that's essentially what happened in The Last Dance. There was no reason to Cause they essentially added world building. They added extra character designs of the symbiote. And we never, like, how many symbiotes do you got on a plane?

11:46KT: Like we didn't need it. This is the third movie and you know, I know you're not one to like check out interviews and behind the scenes and that sort of thing, but they kept the tone for two films. I don't know why they decided to switch it up unless they are trying to tease something, but it's like, you know, don't tug on it unless we're going to have a happy ending is what I'm saying.

12:09Oti: Right

12:09KT: Because if you're telling us it's the end, it's the end, you know.

12:13Oti: Like, there's too much focus on fucking Strickland, like who fucking cares? Man, this is And I love Chiwetel, this is the last, this is the last hoorah Give me more of Brock and Venom, give me more of their adventure rather than a Strickland subplot of him being all against aliens and having to, wanting to kill them all. and

12:33KT: know, I know. I know, I

12:36Oti: I know. I know. I know. And you know I love a good world building, like we will

12:42KT: Not in the last movie That's for you to watch The Expanse and spend 20 hours to diddle yourself. That's, that's what world building is. Not at the last of a trilogy of a fun fucking franchise.

12:57Oti: That did not take itself seriously up until the last one where it had everything had to be connected to some other shit.

13:04KT: And where's our girl, Michelle Williams? Like, was she just busy or she didn't want to do this movie? Like, even if she couldn't turn up for this movie, I don't think they needed to have the extra branches to fill that Michelle Williams hole. I think they could have just focused on the story. the story being that we're seeing the end of a friendship. I really think we could have just stayed that way.

13:30Oti: And this end of a friendship thing, I get, like, Eddie Brock has to be the most idiotic person on earth. I do not get, like, in the first two movies, he's trying to create, you know, there's that bond you're trying to build. with Venom. Oh.

13:54KT: Is that the kind of vibe? Cause the whole time you're like, I think it was just like a movie. You're like, man, this is a journalist.

14:04Oti: Loves

14:08KT: interviewed every time?

14:09Oti: microphone.

14:16KT: Was he in, like a boxing ring or something? And I was like, okay, this makes sense

14:21Oti: No, I just think like, Everything that went wrong, he wanted to palm it off and say it's Venom's fault. And to my point, it felt too unrealistic to the point where you know what you have with Venom in your life.

14:38KT: Yeah.

14:39Oti: And especially for the first movie, I can forgive. Like, this is the first, it's, gonna be testy.

14:44KT: Uh huh.

14:45Oti: The second one, you guys part and you know you're fucking useless without him. And then you join again. And then in the third one. We're here in The Last Dance. and you still act as if like on some pompous B word like I'm bruh.

15:00KT: Why did you say b word? Do

15:01Oti: I don't know. I don't, After it, it deserves my swear I'm like just enough.

15:10KT: All right,

15:11Oti: I didn't like I love me a good Tom Hardy and hope he picks up Taboo after this.

15:18KT: He better

15:19Oti: Because he, he needs to, to get some redemption coins, fam.

15:24KT: That's what you're saying? Okay.

15:26Oti: But, like, I just didn't get that back and forth. And, to me, in the last one, I just wanted more of them. And I didn't really care of the subplots. It didn't add to anything.

15:37KT: Because the last film didn't matter. At the end of the day, like, you're not We didn't need world building, because from a plot point of view, it didn't matter. We were going to end up where we were going to end up, right? Saying goodbye to Brock and Venom. So we didn't need any broadening of the plot at all. Like it actually doesn't make any sense at all, but I also don't want to spend our whole time talking about how it doesn't make sense either. Hmm.

16:08Oti: No, I'm with you. I'm with you. To me, what The Last Dance thought I'd be getting, I thought there'll be like an appearance from Spider-Man just based off. Well, How, the second one end ended.

16:19KT: of surprised that

16:20Oti: And I'm sort of glad that. we didn't get that because I was like, oh, fuck six. we're going to get Spider-Man. And I love Spider-Man, I just wanted this world to be sort of separate. Even though I know it's in the same universe End in the same world. I just wanted just give me Venom, man. Like, I just wanted a Venom and Eddie adventure. Yeah. A last hurrah that, that encapsulates everything that we've seen up until our point.

16:46KT: Oh, absolutely. Well, I guess while we're talking about critiques, I'm going to go back to the first Venom. I know that I have a lot of love places for Riz Ahmed, but I will say, I To have a brown Muslim billionaire that is moustache twirling and killing all of humanity is a choice. Especially when statistically Social media ly. the demographic is screaming white middle aged man, right? So even from that point of view, I don't even get how it says that. Actually, Oti, let's be topical. Are you ready to be a topical film wanker?

17:31Oti: always

17:32KT: There's conversations about, uh, American Psycho. the Christian Bale film Well, you know, it's not Christian Bale film, but there is talks of a remake happening. And there are a lot of names that are getting thrown into the hat. Uh, Jacob Elordi Is kind of at the top of that list at the moment people threw out Riz Ahmed as well as Dev Patel as well

17:59Oti: Oh, not our Rebel Ridge guy

18:02KT: Aaron Pierre,

18:02Oti: Yeah.

18:03KT: he's dodging all the lanterns at the moment. but this is also an interesting thing. And I obviously would like to rewatch American Psycho as well. Famously for movie babies, uh, American Psycho is directed by a woman. So to have that lens and also be that, uh, the misogyny and, uh, you know, the, the grappling of power white. Grappling of power. It doesn't make sense to change the race in regards to the casting. And also our beautiful other lovely man, Dev Patel talked about not wanting to be the Brown James Bond or this or this or that.

18:43KT: Right. Because at that point, you're just fitting yourself into a mold instead of doing stuff like Monkey Man, for example. So I was like, people need to stop that shit. Like, keep your fanfiction Wattpads open. Like, you can do your little, uh, bloggers on the side. But, to come back to Venom, I don't know. Again, love Riz Ahmed, he didn't tell me, but I don't know what the decision was for him to play this billionaire, especially because he's so tapped into global solidarity. But in any case, a role is a role and he was in the film, but it was a bit jarring. It was like the BP, we're sorry, like this definitely, it just felt interesting.

19:26KT: It was a choice to have him. As the billionaire that does all of the evil things and, uh, unethical trials, and that sort of thing. So for me, that didn't necessarily work in the first Venom, but I loved the foundation it was building for what we got eventually in Let There Be Carnage.

19:47Oti: I think when you mentioned that we were watching it, I hadn't really thought of it like that. To me, it was just Riz Ahmed as this character and I was like, cool, we love Riz Ahmed. and he's playing that role quite well. And you brought a aspect of believability. do you see Riz Ahmed as this character? To me, I, I, I thought, I, I did. I did, I could see him, like, I was like, oh, cool, he's embodying the role. But zooming out and having that sort of mustache twirling villain. I guess I could sort of see your point.

20:27Oti: but I think what sort of put me out in the first one was how the doctor I think it was cause

20:37KT: I think it was a woman, but

20:39Oti: but continue Yeah, like everything that you you know, of Riz Ahmed tells you that he's going to fucking kill you.

20:51KT: What?

20:53Oti: yeah, like she brought in Brock into the lab and when she was pulled out she was called out. She was like, Oh, yeah, actually believe me I just want to know what happened I'll Tell me everything tell me and I won't hurt you like Bruh, this guy's experimenting on. bloody humans. and threatened your kids when someone does that

21:16KT: How's your kids?

21:17Oti: a kid too

21:18KT: They like their ears And they're

21:21Oti: then tells you believe me fam, I just want to know Hey, hey, hey, hey, I guess people are gullible up there, but geez

21:30KT: but

21:30Oti: Plot device.

21:32KT: I just, I thought it was a lot of fun. in recent interviews, uh, Tom Hardy was asked about the voice of Venom. Cause at first I was like, Hmm. Did Willem Dafoe have some time? But it was Tom Hardy doing the voice and he talks about influences in hip hop.

21:55Oti: Ooh,

21:56KT: Yeah.

21:57Oti: likes Keto that much.

21:59KT: No.

21:59Oti: No! Like Wu

22:01KT: Wu-Tang, Method

22:02Oti: Scroop, scroop! Oh, alright.

22:06KT: You best protect your neck,

22:08Oti: Ert.

22:10KT: I love the voice. I think it was a lot of fun. I think There were a lot of things that worked for me in regards to the Venom franchise and the voice and the personality and the vivaciousness and tenacity of Venom helped, helped me to enjoy the world so much more.

22:35Oti: Yeah, me too. I feel like going in and especially because we watched the second one then the first one Going in and knowing exactly what I'd what to expect from it In as much as I didn't get the same amount of what I got from the first one. It was still setting up setting us up for something that will be Purely enjoyable and doesn't really take itself too seriously. You could tell just by the interactions and oh my god It's it's you know, if you're looking at Riz Ahmed who's Fucking strong and every scene he was in I thought he just killed it And even Michelle Williams like it didn't feel nothing felt out of place and watching even Dan in it

23:22Oti: you know It was all just

23:26KT: Was that unintentional shade because you named all of the actors names and then he just called him Dan

23:33Oti: It's Dan. He plays Dan in everything He plays Dan in everything

23:39KT: With that face

23:41Oti: If Reid Scott, if I didn't even know like bruh, he just needs to change his name to Dan

23:49KT: Yeah

23:50Oti: He looks like a Dan as well

23:53KT: Was he the man, you cut it out if I'm wrong, was he the man on that show a million things where he was playing the guitar? Was that him? Oi. a fucking brat

24:07Oti: Archer reference.

24:08KT: Friends and lovers, go and check out our Archer episodes. while we're talking about, I guess the first film or, you know, the first instances, Michelle Williams character Anne. I want to talk about this, Oti. I want to talk about I, I guess the first thing to say is I don't think the film had the breadth or the interest to dive into the morality and the ramifications of immorality. I feel like Brock did the right thing. I feel like Anne should have been down for the cause.

24:52Oti: did the right thing by stealing her work. Ask her then. Why, why go be, why be sneaky? This is, this is your Tom Hardy tax fam. This is your Tom Hardy tax

25:10KT: showing.

25:13Oti: Everyone that watched Dawson's Creek. knows that You cannot do that to Michelle Williams. Come on now.

25:21KT: Okay, I thought she was Chrisette Michelle Williams at that point,

25:24Oti: that

25:25KT: But I want to talk about it because especially when it comes to these, uh, comic book, Marvel, DC sort of films, whether successful or not, there is always some attempt at grappling, you know, good versus evil and that sort of thing. And I kind of want to touch on that theme by, I guess, this introductory sort of, uh, conversation. I, I feel like she shouldn't have been that pissed off.

25:55Oti: She should have. She had the right to be. And I'm glad throughout the whole series. She does not take that back. She like, they don't end up together because

26:03KT: you don't know what she was texting Venom at 3 a.m.

26:07Oti: not Brock. No, but

26:12KT: No, but seriously, if you buy into the premise that we have a mustache twirling billionaire. that is testing on people, vulnerable, marginalized people. And Brock has a way to stop that. And he actually has access to information that would actively put a stop to these unethical, immoral trials. How then do you get in the way of progress?

26:47Oti: Fam, at some point the journey has to matter. It's not about the destination. Bro, this is someone you're supposed to trust and be the life with. And you still go behind their back? And mans didn't even apologize, Let There Be Carnage, 10 minutes before the movie ended. This man has no self awareness. and it wasn't him even apologizing out of him feeling bad. It was because Venom was like fams. You never really apologize. I apologize.

27:23KT: Why does this feel why does this feel The Last Dance? I took it personally

27:27Oti: Because she had to take it personally and I take it personally for her as well.

27:31KT: inheriting the beef

27:34Oti: She's my Pharrell in this farm. I cannot sit here and say that that relationship was going to work because Eddie moves weirdly. He thinks of No, one apart from himself. no.

27:45KT: the relationship alone. Whether the relationship worked or not, I'm saying to you, or maybe you couldn't believe it enough, the premise of the first film, sir, was the morality, was the mistreatment, the systemic discrimination against marginalized bodies. Yeah. Okay, Mr. Eugenics. So, albeit a plot device, that doctor with the tight upskirth helped Brock to be able to uncover the information, to be able to stop it. Because remember, he's our Ed Kemp. He's our investigative journalist. That is important. A fuckin brick wall. That's what she was

28:41Oti: Was something bigger than than just She was telling us

28:44KT: what what's the opposite of a whistle. Blow a whistle sucker

28:47Oti: She was telling us Yes, all these things like you can try and do right or whatever or get to the right result. but it's how you get there It's not, it's not just, oh, I will move weirdly and shadily so I can achieve good. No, it's everything that you do up until the point. So for Brock to move weirdly and say, oh, I'm just gonna still log in. I'm just gonna fuck up whoever, as long as I'm, I'm, you know, dignified. Nah, you do it the right way Are you done?

29:28KT: Yeah, but the movie didn't even paint it as that. To me. The movie didn't paint it as that. It was just a way. Anne's It was a way, it was a way for them to break up. It should have been some dumb reason for them to break up. It shouldn't have been

29:44Oti: It was the perfect reason because then they know, we're not, they're not getting back together in this three film stint. Because fuck that shit. however Venom wanted to spin it, that shit wasn't happening. I stand by Anne.

30:00KT: Well

30:00Oti: I thought you're for women's fam.

30:03KT: We'll tell your radioactive testicles that then. We actually want to channel into the first film it was that deep They should have made another reason why they broke up because for me That gets in the way because if you tell me there's a way to stop a fucking billionaire I say say less son. I'm in the front seat. Actually. I'm on the front of the hood like Mad Max

30:29Oti: at that point. He didn't even have evidence. He was just speculating

30:33KT: He had more than enough. He had those court documents that were showing actual names that died.

30:39Oti: Which he stole.

30:41KT: Exactly.

30:43Oti: Attorney-client privilege means something.

30:45KT: Pocket watching you must be the police. Let's move on then, sir. Bro. tell Oti I It's all for the greater good. I assure you. Um, let's give some spotlight to our favorite film of the franchise. Let There Be Carnage. Cletus is cool. Like Woody Harrelson is cool. yeah, I guess this is more leaning towards his, his Flamboyance in the Hunger Games as opposed to, uh, I, I guess his, uh, more, methodical approach to True Detective, for

31:28Oti: I just want to say what I'm thankful for. and that's him not having that Awful hairstyle he had at the end, of No, I don't want to see an Annie Annie villain. That was hideous For the that

31:50KT: For the time that they gave Bulma one little blue strap in Dragon Ball Evolution, I will inherit the beef. Commit! You're a crazy ass motherfucker. Continue your crazy ass wig.

32:03Oti: let me be. I do not want to see that.

32:09KT: But shout out to Naomi Harris, by the

32:12Oti: Yeah

32:14KT: Also shout out to the Britannia nature of the production.

32:17Oti: and I was

32:19KT: how I was able to tell that that was Otto Hightower in the third film because he was speaking in American accent and I was like, I know who he is. And then I imagined him with a British accent. I'm like, ah, House of the Dragon.

32:31Oti: Atta. Yeah.

32:34KT: to Naomi Harris, I think she did very well. I don't think you would ever. Oh. I remember, I remembered Black and Blue, but before I remembered Black and Blue, like, I don't think there's ever a moment where her performance is the problem. Actually, no, that applies to Black and Blue. Like, I think she's always going to deliver. I think she, like, she's just so capable and

33:00Oti: Yeah, even Bond,

33:02KT: She doesn't Bond.

33:03Oti: Yeah, she was really good.

33:06KT: Not my Bond.

33:07Oti: Eh!

33:08KT: My body's in France.

33:10Oti: France! Lupin. Lupin! Oh, Lupin! he's disguises, and this is why, I don't know. Yeah, if you're going to infiltrate Russia and you have a, little porn costume, fam.

33:28KT: respectfully, I think he was compromising government secrets more than Brock was stealing that information. But

33:34Oti: I just

33:36KT: but no, I just want to lay some love to Naomi Harris. Uh, yeah, she's not the reason why something is bad again, Black and Blue. And we also love Tyrese as well while we're here. I feel like I could have watched the whole movie of Naomi Harris, to be perfectly honest. Like it's like she did. I just know. And if she doesn't, I don't care in my heart. She did. I feel like so much prep work was done. For us to get the performance and we could have got so much more, you see what I'm saying?

34:08Oti: I hear, I thought we could have gotten more of the Naomi sort of Uh, Cletus sort of relationship. I felt like those, watching them rampage, I was like, you guys are deserve to feel angered. You guys can rampage all you want because you justified.

34:28KT: Yeah. And then actually, can we talk about it? Uh. Friends and lovers trigger warning. We're not going to go into a lot of detail, but in Cletus's backstory, there's talk about murder, but also like abuse against kids, like physical abuse. So there's a trigger warning. Friends and lovers, we're not going to go into a lot of detail. So he talked about, I think it was killing the grandmother first and then killing his mom. And then he got beat by his daddy. And that's where he started crying.

34:59Oti: But because that's the story Brock told. And this is, this is again is where I want to question Brock's integrity.

35:07KT: Okay, can I just say that, if I can quote the daddy of conglomerate media, Logan Roy, you are not serious people. Because here I am talking about like, immoral, unethical procedures on people and I was very serious. And this is where you decide to be serious. But strap on, sir.

35:25Oti: Manz left out an entire side to Cletus story, and only reported some bullshit. Knowing full well that the trauma that he had gone through, ignoring to say that, because you only paint him a certain way. Giving him any sort of nuance, or or even just a different aspect of what he is being through to be that. was too much for Brock. He just wanted the sensationalized headline. And this goes down to treating

36:00KT: Stop treating Brock like he's the Daily Mail!

36:02Oti: is the Daily Mail in this instance! He moves He is Piers Morgan. He He he hacked. He hacked into the

36:11KT: He didn't hack!

36:14Oti: hacked! The same way Piers Morgan moved,

36:17KT: he used

36:17Oti: doing the same thing.

36:18KT: It's not a crime

36:21Oti: Like,

36:23KT: whistle sucker.

36:28Oti: why I didn't even buy him as a journalist because he just didn't give me that. That's why So for him to, to paint Cletus in such a way and to neglect, like I was here rooting for Cletus saying You go be with your, with your Naomi Harris. And be together. Because you guys have been separated for such a long time for some bullshit. Because the system just didn't work to protect you. I wanted them to to skedaddle into happiness forever.

37:01KT: So your ride or die crime is that compared to ride or die hacking into information that will liberate humanity? Aye. Keep looking because I'm not the one.

37:15Oti: so against systems. I'm surprised you're letting this slide.

37:20KT: What? The systemic neglect?

37:23Oti: failures of the system.

37:26KT: Sigh.

37:28Oti: Stay tapped in, man. of you,

37:31KT: Jaguar Oti, right? Let's, let's finish off with The Last Dance, friends and lovers. Shout outs to you if you're still here. Our delicious symbiotes. The last film was disappointing. I thought of this franchise as like Fast and the Furious. Like, the first two films are a four for And I was just expecting this by default to be a four, because again, mathematically how in the third movie, after two movies of giving us such beautiful brilliance and tone, do you then recant? Do you then redact? Right? That don't even make sense.

38:08Oti: It doesn't

38:09KT: But this is maybe a 3.5 for me. And the world building didn't make sense. Why spend so much effort doing character designs? on symbiotes just to be in the last season. there was a really cute moment with Mrs. Chen, uh, and Venom when they had the, I think it was Dancing Queen that was playing. Like that was really cute. I, we love Megan Thee Stallion, friends and lovers, but we kind of skipped over She-Hulk, but obviously there was that viral moment of, uh, she, was her name Tatiana? Bust Down Tatiana?

38:41Oti: Yeah.

38:43KT: So there's that, but I really like Mrs. Chen and Venom dancing. Like, I really feel like we could have just stayed like that.

38:49Oti: Yeah. I love Juno Temple as much as the next person, but getting her all, like her and Strickland pretty much just consumed the whole thing, like they took up nearly. 60 percent of the movie that didn't need to be on them.

39:08KT: was too much.

39:09Oti: I was like, I don't care.

39:11KT: But then you had your other gal. It was really annoying. She had, she had two instances of Avatar. She was double Avatar up in regards to her white savior isms. She, cause there was one line where she literally, she literally just turned into a symbiote and then she was talking to Strickland, stop hurting us. We need to help. Motherfucker, you were just a human two seconds ago. You're not a symbiote. Sorry, sorry to bring symbiote quantum into this, but you were never a symbiote. Why are you jacksouling this situation? Oh, these aliens will never understand. Fuck off! And then she had a moment at the end where she became like the Sigourney Weaver Avatar in this, The Last Dance, where she was the most important.

40:01KT: How powerful would that have been if it was Michelle Williams? Because this woman that we never met and they called her weird, but she wasn't weird because she was supposed to be a symbiote. She essentially renaissance made herself into a symbiote. But like, she was actively helping Venom survive, right? And it's like, no, fuck you. You don't get to be the most important character in this movie. Fuck you.

40:29Oti: Yeah. I am tired of the Lunge characters. You remember watching Monster and you know, the Lunge was a detective chasing Tenma.

40:44KT: Yeah. I only remember his name is Tenma because of that.

40:46Oti: And I'm like, bruh, Listen to reason sometimes. Just think for a second. Your hate cannot be the only driver. To cover everything aside, for you to only see the reason because of some jigsawly revelation at the end.

41:03KT: And some of the team were that, like Kelly for example, they were involved in the first film all the way to the end. Like, I don't even understand why it deviated from what worked.

41:15Oti: I'm just tired of the Strickland sort of characters in movies because, fuck that. If you're to listen to anything, I don't want to

41:24KT: No,

41:25Oti: No. No!

41:26KT: You blaming Strickland.

41:28Oti: Fam, he's just frustrated. He was so

41:30KT: should have more ire for Chiwetel in Lion King and not singing Be Prepared. You should have more ire about that.

41:39Oti: I'm just tired of this one boner minded people in movies.

41:44KT: So you want multiple boners? Yeah! All at once? All

41:47Oti: different directions. You've watched Key and Peele. follow the Fucking Cumberland, I don't know. Just do something that's outside the realms of fucking It's been done a million times and it's frustrating. Because you'll get this character hardened to stone. You know, like, Ooh, the typical pharaoh, we need to ten plagues to loosen his heart. But it does nothing. I'm like, oh, we'll kill his son. Like, fuck that shit. It's as old as fucking the Bible. Like, do something new, man. And that's why, and then we focus on the a hundred, like, most of the movies, I'm like, I'm tired.

42:24KT: Uh.

42:25Oti: Don't give me this shit. This movie was supposed to be Brock and Venom running into the sunset. Or jumping off a cliff. Anything other than that bullshit.

42:34KT: Yeah.

42:36Oti: Oh man, I'm exhausted by that shit. Anyway, yeah.

42:43KT: Like, I just wanted to feel something, man.

42:48Oti: I just want intelligent people moving intelligently and things happening to them that's thought out.

42:54KT: Okay. Tyler the Creator.

42:56Oti: And not, and we're recording this because Chromakopia dropped today and KT has continuously talked its praises and sang its praises. So I just, I expect like, I didn't go in with expectations of anything different than what we had solved in the first two And it's sad that we got what we got when this movie was never that

43:25KT: Yeah.

43:27Oti: and like I watched this and I kept on just referencing or thinking of Logan And I'm like,

43:37KT: there was a wistfulness. There was a sadness. There was a reflection on life. Yeah. On what it means to connect with people.

43:46Oti: like Eddie

43:48KT: Or like a Riders of Justice, a Mads Mikkelsen film

43:51Oti: Brock getting the, the lift back to, you know, he's trying to get back to the city. and Meeting a random family and contemplating what life is and all that and the happiness and things that he's gonna miss. I get that. I want to feel that and I understood why that was in. But everything, like, they could have just Anyway, we got what we got. And it's sad that that was the last hurrah. Maybe there's a way this would come back based off how it ended. Somehow, some way we'd find out that there's a little symbiote stuck somewhere in someone's ass that will come out

44:36Oti: and it'll go back to best guide. And they'll revamp the whole thing but up until then, man, I I, I, I do not care about every other character. I just wanted the two main ones that we'd followed and fall in love with Continue. to continue the journey.

44:57KT: Absolutely. I guess, to end on something light. I don't even, want to research it because. Friends and lovers in Britannia. I don't have a lot of faith in you guys. After you did your UK Sexiest Man Alive. I don't care to look it up because I don't need to get mad, but Tom Hardy hasn't been on any of those lists.

45:24Oti: Fam,

45:24KT: He wasn't on mine.

45:26Oti: Give me Jeremy Clarkson all day every day fam.

45:30KT: That's, that's violence right there. That's violence right there. but I, I, I get why they made him disheveled because they wanted a bigger impact, but we've seen man's in a tuxedo before. Like that's. That wasn't a surprise to anyone, at least not to me anyway

45:49Oti: Yeah,

45:50KT: Well, we love you, Tom Hardy. I don't know about Oti, he's still working on his whistle sucker over there. Um, but yes, uh, enjoyed the franchise. It's, it's frustrating because we're holding our feelings in a not so great way, but that's just because it ended that way. I had a lot of fun along the way. but let's finish off. Hey.

46:13Oti: Mm hmm.

46:14KT: Woo hoo hoo. Thank you, friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

46:26Oti: Okay. be in Tom Hardy and I Taboo.

46:34KT: The fact that it's only been one season is a shame.

46:37Oti: Yeah! It's such a good show.

46:45KT: I'm going to have to stop discussing like TV and film at work. Actually stopped bringing it up. It's more if people ask but like I was talking about Venom and exciting about watching the last Venom. And I obviously mentioned Taboo. There's no way I'm going to talk about Tom Hardy and not mention Taboo. And then he looked it up and he was like, that was in 2015. And I'm like, fuck off. It still hurts.

47:08Oti: 2015. Yeah. It's a British thing, isn't it? Make one thing it's good and you're like, yeah, I'll get back to it if I get back to

47:21KT: will reference Bullet Train. Oh, keeping warm

47:25Oti: Oh Keeping on with the camp.

47:28KT: strap on. You want some peppermint?

47:32Oti: Yeah, gotta watch some pepper boy

47:37KT: If you would like to report whistle suckers, friends and lovers on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, and I just created threads for us, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write

47:45Oti: Com.

47:49KT: We're also on Everybody Podcasts. If you'd like to leave a rating and review, I will see you guys next week.