Top Boy – The Urban Legend of Summerhouse

Full transcript of Top Boy – The Urban Legend of Summerhouse.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and it is another edition of the drug game, otherwise known as Top Boy. If you're nasty addition, you want friends and lovers nasty reviews. We've got The Wire. We've got Snowfall. We've got 4 Blocks. We've got everything. We've also covered Kin. So we might not need to talk about the Irish characters or creator of this series, Oti.

0:30Oti: Madness.

0:38KT: Apologies in advance to our UK friends and lovers. Let's get on with the show. Hey friends. And you're lying.

0:50KT: Welcome back to the For Your Reference Podcast. You got your host KT and Oti.

0:54Oti: And Oti.

0:55KT: Mind your P's and Q's when you come around the yard for food, pussyhole. Find out if the juice is worth the squeeze, cause we ridin out immediately with the Complete Top Boy series this week. Can I get a,

1:14Oti: he got one already

1:18KT: welcome, welcome friends and lovers all around the yard. Um, if this is the first time you've tuned into the For Your Reference podcast, you are most nasty, but you are most welcome just like our day ones, who, this is a very popular genre, um, in the For Your Reference household. And we will get into our first impressions. Um, but there's definitely, definitely a lot to talk about in regards to general information. We have creator Irish playwright, Ronan Bennett, who is also credited for a lot of the writing.

1:56Oti: Why does this feel like when you said the Irish playwright, you really leaned into it?

2:01KT: Okay, Martin McDonagh, I'm not talking about the Banshees of Inisherin.

2:08Oti: All right,

2:08KT: Is this the Banshees of Summerhouse? I'm pretty sure it's quite factual that we know who wrote and created the series.

2:14Oti: Yeah. Just, just felt there was a little bit of a lean in.

2:17KT: Well, if I can recenter, shout out to Nia DaCosta for directing some of the Netflix episodes.

2:23Oti: of the Netflix

2:24KT: Um, in way of stars, stars, stars, we have Ashley Walters, big bad man, Kane Kano

2:33Oti: Woo!

2:35KT: Robinson, Michael Ward, Jasmine Jobson, as well as so many more, but also Little Simz.

2:42Oti: Little Simz.

2:44KT: Does Little Simz have the keys to your bloodclaat Beemer?

2:47Oti: Oh, she does!

2:49KT: Hey, if Ronan Bennett can write this whole series, I can say bloodclaat Beemer. Clearly there's not a

2:57Oti: Clearly there's not light anymore.

3:00KT: What do you mean? Aaron Sorkin said anyone can write all stories.

3:05Oti: Facts.

3:06KT: the Banshees of A Few Good Men, grab a snack, grab a very strong beverage, friends and lovers, because we are absolutely, absolutely going to get into all of the series. I'm pretty sure it's because Netflix marketing, but we will refer to it as Summerhouse, the first two seasons and the Netflix series, which you can call three, four and five, or you can call Netflix one, two, and three, but let's get into first impressions while you're here. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. You're lying. You're lying. You're lying. You're lying.

3:41Oti: Summerhouse presents commendable performances and intricately crafted characters. While not entirely indelible, the depth of its characters adds to its compelling

3:53KT: you know, friends and lovers. It hasn't been long since we've done these pull quotes, but I've already been called out for heckling Oti, so I'm not going to comment on your quote just yet.

4:13Oti: the Netflix series. And it didn't, but that's a conversation that we'll get into.

4:18KT: You keep looking at me as if to validate how you feel, but you know how I feel.

4:23Oti: I know how you feel. That's why I'm waiting for you to read yours, man. I don't know if I can

4:28KT: strap in or strap on Oti, it's going to get nasty. Summerhouse contributes to a popular genre from a unique lens, being set in North London. Beyond the want for rich storytelling, the earnest performances are the heart of Top Boy.

4:46Oti: Facts, I said pretty much the same

4:48KT: You actually didn't. You said there was, said there was like intricate characters, which I firmly, firmly disagree with.

4:56Oti: I did. Because I loved what they did with Ra'Nell and, and, and Jamie. To a point.

5:03KT: Yeah, but they forgot how they did Ra'Nell.

5:05Oti: They did. But the whole dynamic of seeing Ra'Nell trying to struggle through Summerhouse. I, I loved everything about it.

5:18Oti: No, seeing, like, the performances were so good. It was so, I, I, I bought into it. I bought into the struggle. And it just felt that they dropped the ball somewhere in between. And that's all I was waiting

5:32KT: There was a lot of heart. There was a lot of charm through, and I need to make it very clear, friends and lovers through the performances. However, I wouldn't necessarily say it was strong in a technical acting point of view. Come on man, you talk about The Wire. There was a lot of local B-more people that were in The Wire that were still able to not distract you from what was going on, um, in the overarching plot. But let's get into our quote for the final season of Top Boy, so we can actually talk about it.

6:06Oti: Alright, alright, I'll start. Top Boy's final season provides closure amidst intense, somewhat unwarranted sequences. The accelerated narrative tempo unfortunately truncates certain story arcs, culminating in a finale that's near poignant, yet lacks complete

6:25KT: In the For Your Reference household, satisfaction is completely, wholly guaranteed.

6:30Oti: 100%. What about you?

6:32KT: The legacy of Top Boy is distilled through the lives and experiences of those in front of the screen. It wasn't easy to build off a shaky foundation, but the memorable moments will solidify Top Boy's cultural relevance.

6:47Oti: Alright, I agree with that.

6:48KT: Okay, so friends and lovers, before we even get into the themes that we have for today, let's just address something. Um, if it continues to be weaved into our themes, that's absolutely fine as well. But this might also satiate the both of us. Um, and we might not need to weave it into everything else, but let's talk about, you know, storytelling, the importance of telling your own stories and, you know, friends and lovers donate to our GoFundMe. I'm going to create a streaming platform where I put the faces of the writers and the creators and the directors

7:26Oti: directors

7:26KT: on the screen. Yeah. I'm looking at Tarantino as well. Um, but I actually want to talk about this aspect. We are in the 2020s and also what I will also will concede is I am not black.

7:42Oti: Oh, I didn't know

7:43KT: I am a brown Pasifika woman. So you can really much disregard everything I have to say. But if you've sat around listening to this Ronan Bennett series for five seasons,

7:56Oti: You can

7:56KT: you can ride it and snap it off. Oh,

7:59Oti: Wow. Wow. I should have seen that coming.

8:03KT: If he can create the show, I can critique the show. That's all I'm saying.

8:09Oti: Fair.

8:09KT: But I, I like, but I want to succinctly talk about this. And also, if anything, I hold my people accountable as well for our own storytelling. In that we're not just talking about, you know, the drug game in London. We're not just talking about black experiences in London. It exists in a decades long tapestry. Um, you know, that is conscious of leveraged off of black American film, cinema, and television. Correct.

8:39Oti: Mm hmm.

8:40KT: And, you know, I guess we could even, I don't see the point, but I guess we could even argue about whether The Wire would get made today. But David Simon was a journalist and you could also see the love being poured into The Wire. I'm pretty sure he's allowed at the cookout. Hey, again, this man took liberties. I can take liberties in this review,

9:01Oti: Yeah, clearly.

9:02KT: but I want to, and you know, I talked about Aaron Sorkin earlier saying anyone can write any experience. Um, we also have A Few Good Men episode friends and lovers. If you want to check out that type of storytelling, but Oti. Um, because to me, it was very clear in who was writing this series in the sense that, you know, even a lot of the slang you'd see integrated, um, a lot more in the Netflix series, you would see that there's really, as much as I said, everything that made Top Boy special is distilled in those that performed the series.

9:43KT: So how, how do you feel, do you feel about that?

9:48Oti: I'm pretty sure you made it quite clear to me that it was a white person that wrote this,

9:53KT: But, um, can we also make it clear that I didn't know that. We were just sitting there and watching Summerhouse and I'm like, this feels a bit off.

10:01Oti: Yeah, and I get it. I feel like, I don't know. I don't have, or I don't know enough UK people who talk, who speak the way the guys at Top Boy do because it felt like every other word Was, was a slang, right? And to me, parts of it was kind of distracting. And I felt like this sort of increased, especially in, uh, in the Netflix series. I think Summerhouse was a bit more chilled in that regard.

10:32KT: Vanilla. If you continue to listen, friends and lovers, then come and sit on my Jupiter's cock and let's continue.

10:44Oti: Yeah, I got it. But in terms of storytelling, I think, and like I said, in my review, I sort of appreciated Ra'Nell's sort of

10:53KT: Stop relying on Ra'Nell. There were like 30 other characters in the series. He

10:58Oti: of Summerhouse.

11:01KT: And then Mend and Thanos just snapped and he disappeared.

11:05Oti: He did disappear and I think and this is where like we had a disconnect at least for me because in Summerhouse I took it as them setting up Dushane and Sully

11:15KT: and Sully.

11:16Oti: Yeah, we get to see him sort of evolve into being a top boy and the dynamic between him and Sully they painted Dushane in such a way that he was fast thinking. He was quick. He was, he was up there. You know, they introduced hood, hood Schofield to us and

11:35KT: Oh, boo

11:40Oti: they did. They did. Dushane was always three steps ahead. He was always thinking steps

11:47KT: no, no, we're not, Oti, we're not doing

11:48Oti: No, I'm

11:50KT: Dushane is not a mastermind character. Don't do that.

11:53Oti: They laid him out in Summerhouse as someone who thinks about the bigger picture. More than Sully.

12:00KT: Okay, we have things we need to get to, but friends and lovers, um, all around the world that are listening, just keep in mind this same man Oti said Fast and the Furious had layered storytelling, so

12:14Oti: HAHAHAHAHAHA Whether you like it or not, it was bloody layered.

12:19KT: I the Furious, but I'm not going to make it something it isn't. Um, but,

12:23Oti: Oh, man.

12:25KT: but let's, okay, so let's get into the themes. I just want to do just a general sort of positioning so I can get your understanding because you're saying a lot. But you're also contradicting a lot. And I want to understand, um, you know, films as well as TV shows in the drug game, where does this rank for you? Cause we're talking, cause can we agree that top tier is The Wire? Early seasons of Snowfall. Uh, I would put 4 Blocks in being in top tier. So where would you put Top Boy?

12:59Oti: This is, this is an issue, right? When I'm, when I'm thinking of The Wire, I'm looking at these as an entire series. And

13:08KT: at you the entire series. Yes, that's what we do, motherfucker. Reviews, do you speak it?

13:11Oti: when I look at when I look at Top Boy, I feel like the last season really let it down. The first two Netflix series were, I felt they were quite strong and I bought into the plot and the storyline because I, I was coming up with storylines for the final

13:28KT: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's do this. What would you say was the best season of Top Boy?

13:34Oti: I'd say season one because we get to intro we get introduced to Jamie and I felt that opened a gateway to the possib endless possibilities of where this show could be. Together with Stef and the other Aaron, I knew that something was gonna revolve around them.

13:51KT: Okay, you know, this could be its own episode, just us talking about the ranking, um, but I also friends and lovers, we have the next theme coming up, um, that says anime rules, storylines don't matter, so don't worry, we will get into that. So you're saying the Netflix season one is the best of Top Boy. Okay. I would say it doesn't even go up to Snowfall on its worst season.

14:17Oti: Bro.

14:18KT: On the last season of Snowfall.

14:19Oti: The last season was bad.

14:22KT: I built this ship brick by brick.

14:24Oti: Nah, yo, you're

14:24KT: Drive, motherfucker. I got carried away. Nah, bruhs.

14:30Oti: bro. You're tripping.

14:30KT: Top Boy sits in the same banding as Kin. Gangs of London is better than Top Boy.

14:35Oti: Wow, and you didn't even finish Gangs of London.

14:38KT: my penny line. I said it.

14:40Oti: Man, that disrespect.

14:45KT: The disrespect

14:48Oti: Nah, Top Boy is definitely better than those two

14:51KT: Nah, bruh.

14:52Oti: I feel like season one and two of the Netflix series or three and four, however you want to count them. They laid the foundation of what was supposed to come. I took Summerhouse as the building blocks. Of what they painted a picture of what Dushane and Sully were and what they were going to.

15:09KT: they were going

15:09Oti: But then in the first and second season, I felt like they forgot everything they did in Summerhouse. But I, I, I, I forgave that

15:17KT: you're saying it's the best because it retconned

15:19Oti: no, no, no. Because They gave us Jamie and I felt like he played such a big part, a pivotal

15:25KT: and until he did it, that's what I'm talking about. My guy

15:28Oti: Like forget, forget the last season. The last season is just bring it into discussion for this. Because up until then Top Boy was, was, was really, really

15:40KT: No, I'm telling you the foundation was broken from the start. That's what I'm trying to tell you. And again, this could become a whole episode. But what I have to say is we need to talk about the, like the fundamental characters in Top Boy. Kano gets all of my love and splooshes on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, right? In the afternoons too, if I'm feeling nasty. Um, but Dushane's character. Frustrated me, even from Summerhouse, because he was called the top boy, but he was scrambling to make 10 K He wasn't carrying himself in a way that he was deserving of the top boy position. So when he would try and mount up or rather when he would get Dris or Sully to mount up, I didn't care for his come up because he didn't have the cojones to prove that he could do it.

16:30KT: Narcos is also better than this.

16:32Oti: But he did it already in Summerhouse.

16:34KT: No, but I'm talking about Summerhouse with Kamale.

16:37Oti: He did it though. He set it up.

16:40KT: He did it because of Goku. He did it because of Goku rules. He's the top boy because the story says he's top boy.

16:47Oti: No, because Sully was moving mad. So, you know, and this is the thing,

16:51KT: Sully got a code

16:52Oti: no, no, no. Listen to me. This is, this is an issue with, with how the story progressed and how I felt the disconnect really ruined the, the, the telling of the story completely in Summerhouse, there's a clear dynamic between Sully and Dushane, we get character development, at least you get to see who they are as people. I really didn't like Sully in Summerhouse at all. I hated Sully in Summerhouse. Sully never really thought about anything else other than let me do it with Brute. Let me do it without thinking about tomorrow. Let me do it without even thinking about the youth. Tommy cares about kids, man.

17:28KT: No, sometimes. He's

17:29Oti: was up here stealing from Ra'Nell. Who's trying to make, make ends meet over here.

17:34KT: want to make big man moves, that's what happens,

17:37Oti: Like seriously, I really didn't care about, I really didn't care for Sully. But once we get into the Netflix series. Then things start to go grow. We get to learn more about Sully. And this is where I felt like they really didn't do much about Dushane. There's zero character development in Dushane. I think it even regresses. Like it. He

17:57KT: to Jamaica and then he got bored and came back. And I was the point?

18:02Oti: Like he, everything that we were taught of Dushane or what we knew of Dushane in Summerhouse, he does nothing like that in, in the Netflix series. Everything that we know of Sully, he interests, he's introspective, he's learning, he's growing, but he's still with the game. We see him grow from strength to strength. People are even, you know, gravitating towards him. Where was that? What was that movement with Dushane? Dushane was just there sitting plump thinking, man, I'm just going to command here and there, do whatever I can, call the cops on everybody, and feel like what? I, I just didn't understand the movements

18:41KT: my guy, my guy, he was like from Summerhouse season one, you just took, you just gave him grace and it took you time to realize that's what was going on.

18:54Oti: Dushane cared about his community in Summerhouse.

18:56KT: No, he did not.

18:56Oti: Dushane cared about the youths, man! What are you talking about? He cared! He cared about Ra'Nell. He cared about... Let those kids be. When the parents told him to step off, he bloody stepped off. Do you think Sully would have done that?

19:11KT: But he is well within his character, even to the point of him, you know, running in his jeans, trying to escape the police. It was all within character in my personal opinion. I don't know what took you so long because I absolutely saw what everyone else saw. And you know, what's very interesting is, you know, at some point it might've been At the start of the Netflix series, um, Don Cheadle's Algae Rhythm Wikipedia is telling me, uh, that at least Ashley Walters was credited for the fourth season, um, as the executive producer, it's interesting to note that they have executive producer credits and Dushane just stayed stagnant the whole time.

19:58Oti: Yeah, what they did to this character, zero growth. Just made moves completely opposite of what we

20:05KT: but you know, you know what we're saying? We're both saying the same thing. You just arrived at it later.

20:10Oti: No, no, it was like somehow set the scene and they were meant to go from strength to strength, which didn't happen. You know, we get, we get a lot of characters introduced in the Netflix series. I think most of them walked, just the two main characters just evolved very differently.

20:29KT: One evolved, one didn't.

20:32Oti: Yeah. Yeah.

20:32KT: And that's exactly it. Alright friends and lovers, as we do with series that have multiple seasons, we are going to talk about themes throughout the whole series. Um, this first theme that I wanted to get into is anime rules. Storylines don't matter. What really frustrated me about Top Boy is even if you ignore Whether it's authentic, even if you ignore who is telling the stories, something that I actually didn't realize I missed and enjoy about Aaron Sorkin was wasn't when I was watching Oppenheimer and the dialogue wasn't great. Right. I don't understand. I don't understand how, even if you remove the authenticity, the diversity, who should be writing that sort of thing, I don't understand how the writing was so haphazard throughout Top Boy and specifically in regards to world building, but most succinctly about character building.

21:28KT: We would introduce characters. We would introduce storylines that would have a really meaty, you know, sort of working towards climax and never really get there. And I just want to talk about a couple of those storylines now. I think one of the. One of the biggest things we're not going to go into detail, friends and lovers. Um, but I will put a trigger warning for self harm as well as postpartum depression, but we're not going to get into a lot of detail. Um, one of the biggest storylines that I felt was not utilized enough was the Lauryn and Curtis storyline.

22:04Oti: Yeah, so Curtis has this sibling and she is mad. Yeah. She, she, she feels like she'd kill everybody just because they, they looked at her wrong.

22:14KT: right?

22:16Oti: So Lauryn kills Curtis and that's the end of it pretty much.

22:21KT: Yes. From that point of view, it was the only way that that story could have been tied up, but it made no sense that, Oh, so the sister's all good now. She's just moved on with her life.

22:31Oti: Yeah. I did not foresee Lauryn dying the way she did.

22:35KT: Yeah.

22:35Oti: It had to be from Curtis's sister because that's the only way she moved. From the first frame.

22:42KT: But respectfully, can we also talk about how, um, what's the word? It's not naive. It's kind of unthinking. It's kind of selfish. Like Lauryn just moved however she wanted to move. And maybe it's because she knew Jaq was always going to clean up her mess or protect

23:00Oti: Man, she moved as if she didn't live in Summerhouse. Right?

23:07KT: so she was so frustrating leading up until this moment, and then this happens. And from a storyline point of view, feeding into the overarching sort of world of Top Boy, it means nothing. So what was the point?

23:22Oti: Yeah. Yeah. It was so annoying, the whole Lauryn arc, just because everything that she did made snitch about Sully's position. Bruh. You know? Like she moved mad, but it never really, it was always an opportunity for Jaq to show where her allegiances were. And all the time Jaq was like, this is, you know, this is, this is Sully. This is Shane. I can't move like that. Lauryn has to, you know, Lauryn has to go. But then we get to a point where something actually does happen to Lauryn. And this is the issue now because they've painted Jaq as a character, as a type of character. Ruthless. Yeah. She does what she needs to do because she knows there's no other way.

24:10KT: and she, but that's the point. She didn't have a conscience about it, which is fine, because that's just how she's moving. She does what needs to be done. She's making the most of her circumstances. She never had a conscience about it, and I didn't like that. She just. Like, I don't think it's unbelievable that Jaq's character could wake up and be like, oh my goodness, but it's like, my guy, you're the one, you're the pipeline.

24:35Oti: Not even. Okay. I can, I can, I can understand any epiphany for any character. You get your Chrisette Michele epiphany, wherever you get it from.

24:45KT: Mm hmm.

24:46Oti: But as soon as she had it, her solution was to steal drugs from fucking Sully. And then go back, not me an hour later, go back and tell Sully, bruv,

24:58KT: Yeah.

24:59Oti: I have your drugs. Yeah. Forgive me. Yeah. Let's forget it. What's that? What the fuck is that?

25:05KT: know, blood in, blood out, motherfucker.

25:06Oti: Steal it, go.

25:08KT: Yeah, run.

25:09Oti: not steal it, throw it away and run. What

25:12KT: beautiful lover and

25:13Oti: the whole point? What's the epiphany for? It was so fucking worthless, everything that they did up until that point, just discarded the whole storyline. And this is where I have issues. Like we, I've talked about the game. I've talked about movies where this, the story is

25:27KT: Stop trying to get out, yeah.

25:29Oti: up until the last, the last quarter where they just fucking throw everything in the bin that they've done.

25:34KT: You're talking about Power Force right now, or otherwise known as Tommy.

25:38Oti: Because they do that shit so, so much.

25:41KT: It's like, we get it.

25:43Oti: Jaq was a fav. Jaq is a character favorite for a lot of people out

25:47KT: or is? Cause you're going back and forth. Is. Okay.

25:51Oti: But that last move in the final season made zero sense. I, I, I, I just wondering who the fucking writer was while they were talking about this. Even when they were doing the table read, did no one just say, this is

26:03KT: this stinks!

26:05Oti: Because we know Sully refused to call the cops.

26:08KT: Yeah.

26:08Oti: He was like, I'm not doing this shit. I'm walking out. Yeah, because at some point you have to say it's the last fucking season and you're doing things that are completely opposite to what the character would do.

26:21KT: Cue the playlist. Who Shot Ya? I think it's pretty definitive that Jaq did it right.

26:26Oti: Oh, Jaq, a hundred percent. Who

26:28KT: But then why Pussyfoot around it? Why make this a Murder on the Summerhouse Orient Express? Why not just make it clear that it was Jaq? What was the point in the ambiguity?

26:37Oti: The one, the Sopranos ending? Oh, the Tony Soprano die? I don't know.

26:44KT: You need the Sopranos cojones to be able to write such a compelling series.

26:48Oti: Doesn't matter, like, anyone that's, I feel like Every show should keenly look at the final season as not what to do. Like this was straight to the hell out of me. Like I've watched Lost, granted I stopped in between, but I was mad at this.

27:04KT: Okay, before we continue on to the other storylines that don't matter, something that I believe does matter is sex scenes. And why the fuck did we not get any sex scenes in this show?

27:16Oti: We got sex scenes. Where were the black teenies though? Sorry.

27:23KT: Just say, I'm not meeting your needs

27:26Oti: or anything. Uh, nah. But,

27:29KT: Oti. No, but you're right. You also pointed out, you also pointed out in a scholarly way, not in a perverted way, um, that the first nudity, the first titties that we see in this series is Lizzie.

27:41Oti: It is.

27:42KT: What the fuck is that?

27:43Oti: It is Lizzie. I don't know. Maybe, comfortability?

27:46KT: in a world of power.

27:48Oti: I don't know. A show that is 95 percent black and the only nudity is white people. Come on now.

27:55KT: Actually, no, the only sex scenes you had were between Jamie and Lizzie and then little kids. With Stefan and Aaron, like it doesn't like, it's, it's interesting that you would be explicit in the themes of violence. And I guess if I can quote, um, Denzel Washington in Training Day street justice, it's just weird, Oti.

28:32Oti: going to use. Uh, no, I, I, I've got to say, I did not understand why we got a romantic angle for Stefan. It did make sense.

28:41KT: there, there was a lot that didn't make sense about Stefan, but we, we can come to that in a second. Let's go through the other storylines that didn't matter. Sully killing Jamie, which obviously will come to Stefan. This was frustrating because. The mechanics of a show is you make people care or you make people hate like Ashur from Spartacus, for example, you make people care or scorn for a character interconnected characters, and then you kill one or. Both of them off for a dramatic payoff and that dramatic payoff should have ripples in the storylines after that.

29:21KT: And that's what Sully killing Jamie should do because I can get, it felt a bit abrupt, but I can get why Sully killed Jamie. It was a respecting, it was don't show up at my funeral, um, at the funeral of my friend that I'm trying to mourn. Um, you know, you're guilty by association, all those sorts of things. Right. I can kind of. Wrap my brain around cause Sully is about about it, right? He's Tommy. He's the Avon. I'm just a gangster, I suppose. Right. But nothing came out of Jamie dying.

29:54Oti: Nothing came out of Jamie dying. And I think this is the issue with the final season. He felt a bit rushed.

30:01KT: rushed

30:01Oti: Because in my heart, if, if Jamie was still alive, I felt like it would have taken the final season to a greater height.

30:10KT: height.

30:10Oti: But fine, they killed him off. Cool. This created an opportunity. For Stefan, because we knew how he moved, we saw it, we, we, the interaction between Jamie and his brothers, it was deep.

30:25KT: And

30:26Oti: it. And for Stefan to see, it was either going to be Aaron or Stefan, but the fact that Stefan saw Sully do it, it was always going to be Stefan who was gunning for revenge. But we're introduced to Stefan in the final season. He does not, he is, he,

30:41KT: he is deep. First

30:42Oti: care. First of all, he's in foster care. Yeah. Aaron has pissed off to a different, to

30:47KT: Shout out to Hope, the actor that plays Aaron, because he's been quoted as saying his character had nothing the fuck to do, so he's like, I'm not coming back. Um, but yeah, that didn't, that didn't make sense.

31:00Oti: So we're introduced to Stefan. He's still going to school. He's acting as if nothing happened. He's just there chilling. He's there flirting. We're getting a fucking romantic relationship story.

31:13KT: the GP for a sexual health check.

31:15Oti: Man, he's moving as if he didn't see anything.

31:19KT: Friends and lovers. If Stefan and all his grief can go to the doctor for a sexual health check. So can you?

31:24Oti: So man gets connected to... Jamie's old crew. And that's where he gets to start thinking about, I've got to do revenge. I've got to get this, get this revenge. You know, I've got to be sort of in the game, you know, but still he wasn't really in it. He's just moving as if it's another day in, in fucking paradise. He lost his best friend Ats as well. Man has gone through Kevin, The Chi sort of trajectory trauma

31:52KT: Yeah.

31:53Oti: and is still acting as if it's a, it's Sunday.

31:56KT: Top Boy doesn't touch The Chi on its worst day by the way.

32:00Oti: Nah, nah, you're playing. Like, I expected Stefan to be introduced to Stefan at least in some sort of struggle, but him being in foster care, Aaron not even being there, they could have even just replaced the actor for Fuck's sakes. I don't know because it did make sense. I don't believe in Stefan. Like that.

32:19KT: They should have just not had Stefan in there either. Cause it doesn't, it didn't make sense. The math wasn't

32:24Oti: about all of them. Three navigating fucking life together.

32:28KT: And then he's like sitting on that bench and it's like, where's your brother, bruv?

32:31Oti: Man. I feel like the last season, just if you can't do it, just don't just don't.

32:38KT: Speaking of just don't and referencing your call back to the Sopranos, what happened to Dushane and his heart?

32:45Oti: Shelley fixed it!

32:48KT: No, but really like that's a very legitimate response to what he was going through. But then it turned into nothing.

32:57Oti: Well, I don't know, I don't even know what to say with that. Because they introduced it, they really didn't do anything about it. Yeah. He was asking advice to, from everyone. Yeah. Sully, what would you do if your heart started, just started pounding mad out of nowhere? And then we get nothing out of that. Dris's

33:16KT: Bro, Dris's stroke did more to the storyline than Dushane and his heart.

33:22Oti: Yeah. Fucked.

33:23KT: Let's talk about the undercover cops, because that really could have been a whole storyline, a whole arc.

33:30Oti: It would've been, but they just got defeated and they were like, what? We are out. That's it? Yeah. As soon as you've lost one witness that's job done,

33:42KT: Move to the yard because apparently what can seem to be very easy to do business in. Maybe also London is easy to do business

33:50Oti: Seems like it. Maybe we need to move to the UK and just pivot from podcasting to something else.

33:56KT: Are you putting, are you taking meeting notes at a fucking conspiracy?

34:02Oti: as well. Nothing's going to happen.

34:06KT: easy it is to reference The Wire. I'm going to see how often you reference Top Boy moving forward, Oti.

34:11Oti: Oh, every day. Every day.

34:15KT: What was the point? Okay. Um, Dushane losing all the money is kind of like a fuck you because you didn't even trust your own community and you were using that own money against your own community, which will come to will come walk. Yes.

34:30Oti: How, how does Dushane

34:33KT: Dushane

34:33Oti: Dushane is supposed to be smart man's grown in Summerhouse his whole life. He gives a random white woman all his fucking money, all of it, all

34:44KT: That was a capital Y and a

34:46Oti: 16 fucking M, all of it. He keeps nothing under the bed, nothing, everything.

34:53KT: last name is Kambabat. Who knows?

34:56Oti: there's some things that Dushane was making was make some decisions, Dushane was making in this sh in this series. I'm like, who is this for What is this like? You don't know this white woman. She is, she was introduced to you by

35:10KT: Through another white woman.

35:11Oti: someone who you wanted to fucking kill and then didn't because what

35:14KT: A second associator shouldn't white woman.

35:16Oti: shit. Dushane want you to kill Lizzie so bad that I was like, bro, why is Lizzie still moving out here? So, so fucking freely.

35:23KT: We know why. To free the white titty.

35:25Oti: and that you're like, I don't like just fucking messy messy

35:35KT: Friends and lovers, I hope you got this far in the episode and you didn't just stop at Oti's quotes at the

35:41Oti: It's like, something's just, the show has so much potential. The Netflix series one and two. Oh my God. Give me more. You've introduced an aspect. You've given us the, the Summerhouse Marlo. Go with it, run with it. I don't know, like the new blood aspect gave Top Boy such an injection that I felt it needed because the end was never going to be Dushane and Sully,

36:07KT: But also, Shelley caught a body and nothing came out of that. Maybe a couple of episodes arc? What was the point of that?

36:14Oti: show her, to show us that he, she's she, she's not clean. She's part of the game. She can be ride or die. She can only be ride or die until she's being given 2 million.

36:24KT: can launder your money. And she's like for this.

36:28Oti: because I can't

36:31KT: Okay. Okay. Can, can we, in, in, in the safety of the For Your Reference embrace, I didn't Dushane and Shelley. Because unless it's interracial love and we can't have it.

36:46Oti: Well, I sort of bought it. I bought it. I thought they made quite such a cute

36:51KT: Shelley had a kid. Does she remember she had a kid?

36:54Oti: Up until the last minute where Dushane couldn't provide the, the, the extra salons. That's when she was like, I can't do this. Pretending as if it's not because about the money, but it leads, it's everything that was shown, even though she said it's not about the money, that was just verbal.

37:12KT: So what does that mean? If, if, if that's what she meant, then what did everything else mean? Because they didn't, they didn't equal the same thing.

37:20Oti: She came to Dushane. I can fucking launder your money. Yeah. This is someone who's in it.

37:26KT: Oh, you want me to launder these pennies? Fuck off.

37:28Oti: to cut these? Fuck off. The minute Dushane is like, come on girl, leave me alone. I can't think about this shit now! And then she's like, Wait, what? No solons? I can't do this!

37:39KT: I'm out.

37:40Oti: I'm out! It doesn't make sense!

37:42KT: Well, all of you, Skyler haters go towards Shelley direction as well then,

37:46Oti: Bruh. Everyone just moved weird.

37:49KT: Hey, you didn't even mention Breaking Bad when I'm talking about the drug game. Where do you rank? Uh, Breaking Bad in Top Boy.

37:55Oti: Not even, man. Not

37:56KT: Oh, wow, You're not gonna, you're not gonna take the bait.

38:00Oti: Nah, I'm not falling for that. Not

38:02KT: Not even for Bo, Bo Derek's white

38:04Oti: white titty?

38:07KT: Um, let's move into, there are obviously friends and lovers, so many storylines that went absolutely nowhere. Um, like just imagine, just imagine if Game of Thrones. It just never addressed anything. You have that sun wanking out the window and it means absolutely nothing.

38:24Oti: Well, they gave us Bran who meant absolutely nothing to the show

38:29KT: Wow. You're really going to spoil it like that. Okay.

38:31Oti: fucking facts. It's not a spoiler

38:34KT: Well, let's get into the next theme. Candyman compound, the urban legend of Summerhouse. I want to talk about gentrification. You also mentioned this as well. The Dushane of Summerhouse is not. Or did not move the same as the Dushane in the Netflix series. Um, this is where we find our hero emerging from the Summerhouse shadows. Mandy.

38:57Oti: Mandy out of nowhere. Mandy lead actor.

39:01KT: Mandy universe.

39:02Oti: protagonist.

39:07KT: So yeah, like, how do you feel like gentrification was tackled, addressed? Um, woven throughout the Top Boy series. I, if you're saying if I could take it or leave it, I could leave it.

39:22Oti: I think how they did it, especially with a, with sort of the character choices, like Mandy just became the fucking superhero out of nowhere. And then she was everywhere all the time, judging everybody.

39:34KT: Make her a woman and make it lame.

39:36Oti: Man, she was in jail for the longest time and she just came out but she's here throwing eyes at everyone. Come on now, miss me with that shit. Um,

39:45KT: I don't even think Stringer Bell will contribute to the gentrification of Baltimore. There was the, there was the discussion of the waterfronts, which Stringer never really got to, but Marlo kind of picked that up in The Wire. And also, Romeo Must Die is better than Top Boy. They talked about the waterfronts in there as well. So, you know, it's so interesting. And again, friends and lovers, you know, we can talk about, you know, white creators centering, you know, black leads and black protagonists, because I think it might've even been an Irish or an English person Candyman.

40:24KT: And friends and lovers and also shout out love and splooshes to Nia DaCosta, but we do have a Candyman episode where we covered the first OG Candyman and the most recent Candyman, and we actually, you know, came to a sort of, um, agreement that the OG Candyman was able to more succinctly exemplify the ramifications of gentrification compared to the newer Candyman.

40:51Oti: Yeah, I, I, I, I hear that. I think their approach to trying to tackle although I appreciated it to some degree.

41:00KT: That's not what we're there for. We're there for the character stories. We're, we're inside, we're locked in. We're not here for social commentary,

41:06Oti: But we can be here for multiple things. We

41:08KT: yeah. With Mandy guiding you, You thought Mandy was an NPC?

41:15Oti: So, and here's the thing. Dushane apparently doesn't fucking care about the community that way.

41:20KT: He doesn't,

41:21Oti: was shocking to me. Which was news to me. Because out of everyone, like, Sully giving you an eye because you can do that to your community. You need to get your head checked.

41:30KT: Yeah, no, but Sully was for the people. If we talk about the gentrification theme, the only thing that it further it furthered for me was how fucking staunch Sully was. Cause as much or as little as he might have had, and they also, I think it might've been in the last season. It was kind of when Dris was like betraying them. Um, but they kind of had that sentiment where Sully's like, we're always going to be like this. Like, this is always what it's going to be. Right. And then you also had Dushane being like, no, we're going to make it out my brother. It's like, no, you're not. Like, by hand or by sword, bloom or blutter, you are being stuck in Summerhouse and you are, you are gaining benefit to the detriment of your own people. You deserve to fuck off.

42:14Oti: Yeah, Fuck those.

42:16KT: Deportation got, um, addressed in Summerhouse with Ra'Nell and his mom, Lisa. Um, it also got addressed with Kieron as well. And can I just say Oti, I felt like there was importance of putting protesting for the rights of those that don't get a voice in, I was going to say in this country, but like in Western countries. Um, and deportation is a big aspect of that, that people don't talk about. And I feel like they wanted to put it inside of the show, but because it all got resolved in a Family Guy, all resolved in that same episode, it felt as though it was in there to be in there. Does that make sense?

43:00Oti: No, but like, uh, even in Summerhouse, um, they cover deportation, you know,

43:06KT: And that was very emotional. That was one of the most emotional storylines of this

43:10Oti: Yeah, like, they covered it quite well in Summerhouse. Um, here it felt more gimmicky. Um, because we get deportation. We get them coming towards the end in this final season, and there's like a riot, and there's kids getting killed and knocked down, and it's just utter chaos. It felt so unwarranted, and that's what I meant with my review, sort of. There's a lot of scenes that just felt unwarranted.

43:36KT: And

43:37Oti: they just felt like, we're just gonna create chaos because that's what we want for this situation right now. Yeah. Or, we want Dushane to be running when there's... Everyone out in the streets. What do we, how do we get that? Boop, kid, car, bam, done. You know, we want, uh, Dushane to have no one. Ooh, let's get everyone shot. And like, it just felt everything that was being placed was strategically placed to create a scenario at that point of time, at that point in time. You know, it's, it's the X marking of, of everything that happened in the, in the finale.

44:12Oti: That just felt, come on, man, just, just write better. Take us on a journey. If six episodes was never going to be enough, tell Netflix to fuck off. And you're living in a season two. I'm just saying sometimes the legacy is better than giving a shit.

44:29KT: Well, um, I have a couple of quotes that summarize the characters. We kind of already talked about them. So it's okay. Um, if we don't go into a lot of detail, I want to talk about the characters that are married to the game. You know, I've talked about Tommy. I've talked about Avon. Uh, would you say Leon was married to a certain extent? Snowfall.

44:51Oti: Yeah, until he found

44:53KT: Yeah. Friends and lovers. There's a reason why we don't have an episode on the last season of Snowfall. Um, but in love and tribute to John Singleton, we do have it on the first few seasons, so go and check that out in our podcast feed. Um, but this is a quote from Sully. Do you want to read it?

45:07Oti: Nah, you go for it. Your favourite mandem.

45:09KT: If man fucking buss shots at you and I know about it, it's fucking mad. I'm ridin' out immediately.

45:17Oti: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

45:20KT: Do you remember the context of this line?

45:21Oti: Nah, give it to me.

45:22KT: This was when right. Fresh off, hot off the press, when Sully was getting shot at, at Jason's funeral. And he was telling Dushane and Dushane didn't give a fuck. Dushane chose not to give a fuck. And he's like, Oh, do you know, this is not the right time to strike back and that sort of thing.

45:40Oti: the Like a lot of the, like in retrospect, I don't even, every sort of interaction between Dushane and Sully, it made for a further departure in their relationship. Like everything, everything that happened when they were together made it them just made them that much farther away from each other.

46:02KT: Even if you didn't agree with Sully's actions, you knew he had a code that's quoting Omar and also Bunker's Bunk originally said it in The Wire.

46:10Oti: knew he had a code.

46:12KT: Yeah, he sure do, but at least, you know, he was moving in a way that was in adherence to his own beliefs and his own code, right? And that's something that's respectable. That's why I love the Sullys of the world. I love the Tommys of the world. Um, and the Avons of the world, because that's what it is. That's where we are. And Jerome from Snowfall to a certain extent as well. He is hands down. Kano is literally the best part of Top Boy.

46:40Oti: Season one, two and three And somehow he's crap, man. Can't even, can't even change my mind on

46:47KT: again, you were central C loaded, loaded because you, you didn't, you didn't fool to completion. Um, but there's a lot to say about Sully's character. All of the strength of Sully's character is what Kano brought to the role is what I'm saying. You know, there was even, do you remember, um, when Dushane was snitching on Jamie? Apparently that was supposed to be Dushane and Kano snitching on Jamie when the police were about to pull up on the shop.

47:14Oti: Yeah, and

47:15KT: Kano's like, nah, I would never, Sully would never, never, never, never do that.

47:19Oti: I think he even said no black person would fucking do that shit. Yeah. So, oh I'm just moving mad with that writing. I don't even know.

47:26KT: Can I get mad as well? He only lips white gal, that's all.

47:31Oti: Right. Man, for sure. 90 again, 95 percent black. Mandem only has. Far out. Let's continue.

47:41KT: Oh, goodness me. Uh, how do we move on from that? Um, so this is Oti's favorite slash worst sort of, um, character slash storyline, is wanting out of the game, or at least wanting to go legitimate, right? We have the Ghost from Power. We have Stringer Bell from The Wire. And even Franklin Saint. You know, from Snowfall as well. And this is a quote from Stringer Bell from The Wire. If you remember, this is in the balcony when Avon has just come out of prison. We ain't gotta dream no more, man. We got real shit, real estate we can touch.

48:15Oti: Yeah, there's always something bigger and better out there, isn't it? You know, until you get swindled and...

48:22KT: Swindled by who?

48:22Oti: The white man. And in both instances, Dushane gives his money stupidly to some white woman she doesn't know, doesn't have eyes on. You give 16 million to someone and you can't even put Dris to go and watch it. Dris can't do anything else

48:37KT: take a nap,

48:38Oti: Yeah.

48:39KT: man. Take nap. Why?

48:40Oti: Yeah. Let Dris go and sleep and knock out and pass out in, in, in, in, in her, in her house.

48:46KT: talk about Dushane fucking up the crime scene when he killed Lizzie's husband, Jeffrey. out of the game and you're going to move like that.

48:57Oti: He killed that guy.

48:59KT: He killed that guy,

48:59Oti: Smeared his fucking DNA everywhere. Left the murder weapon next to the body. Didn't even wipe it down. Like, is this a Dushane you painted a picture of who's making steps to take out, to take down Kamale? Calculating the angle for him to be top boy? Trying to take down the Moroccans? Is this the fucking same fucking person?

49:24KT: well, we both disagree on the, on the core of Dushane's character. Um, but I'm glad we can agree on that at least.

49:32Oti: He killed someone, panicked. This is someone who's killed multiple times.

49:38KT: his first

49:38Oti: It wasn't his first rodeo. He's acting here scared, pumped, you know?

49:44KT: Maybe it was his first kill out of Summerhouse. Maybe that's what it was.

49:47Oti: Eh, I don't even know with that. Like, a lot of the things just didn't make sense. Like, if you want to get Dushane in trouble, get the FBI people that are on him in the first place. Exactly. Don't try and create a new case and a scenario where Dushane kills someone, leaves every evidence possible. He probably even spat on the body. Ech. Right?

50:12KT: That's what I'm telling you, my love. The writing was terrible.

50:15Oti: Yeah, like a lot of the moves in that final season just spare me, man.

50:22KT: Uh, I've called it the next gen. I've also called it the agitator. Um, and this is what we're going to talk about, Jamie, if we haven't picked up on anything else. But this is a quote from Marlo in The Wire. You want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

50:37Oti: It was always the other way with Jamie. He was not toeing any

50:41KT: I said, my guy,

50:43Oti: do you mean I need to respect you? What do you mean, OG? What do you mean top boy?

50:48KT: This is just a spot. It's not your spot.

50:49Oti: Exactly. It's, it's just a means for me to get there. And I love that about Jamie. He was everything that was supposed to be. Good about the transition from Sully and Dushane done properly. It was supposed to be magical.

51:04KT: Do you think it became a Game of Thrones? Like, um, Dushane and Sully were too big, they would never die, so Jamie had to die?

51:10Oti: Probably behind the same politics. I don't fucking know.

51:25KT: fallout and be able to make something out of that storyline anyway.

51:30Oti: when they killed Jamie, there was supposed to be a Breaking Bad moment for Aaron or Stef.

51:37KT: Yes.

51:38Oti: And we got neither.

51:39KT: Yes. You's

51:40Oti: some retrospective bullshit. Oh, I ain't gonna kill you anymore. I'm better than you, you didn't even deserve my bullet. Fuck off! He saw you, he, killing your brother, point blank, shot in the belly or whatever it was and then shot in the fucking head. And he deserves fucking better. Bullshit. Pussyhole.

52:04KT: I actually thought it was a beautiful moment with Stef and Sully. Ah, I think Well, you take it for what it is, Oti, and I feel like it was, uh, you know, so Stefan can go and live his normal life, apparently he's been quite fine without Jamie.

52:20Oti: Who wanted to fucking see Stefan in a relationship and fucking having Who wants to see a dullest and fucking sex Bruh.

52:27KT: Yeah.

52:28Oti: Just, come on now.

52:32KT: We don't need to spend a lot of time on it. Um, but I called this Lizzie and Co. Um, this is a quote, friends and lovers. If you need a good time, if you want to have another good time, if you've already watched it, go and watch New Jack City, Mario Van Peebles and all of the gang, um, and go and listen to our episode of New Jack City. Cause, got it! that's not the quote though. The quote is from Nino Brown. Um, and it is, this thing is bigger than Nino Brown. This is big business.

53:06Oti: Yeah.

53:07KT: This show didn't need to expand operations. Who cares if the show, if what made Top Boy so special. Were the performances in this show, i.e. the young black talent in this show, then who fucking cares about Morocco and Ireland? No one cares about where they're getting the drugs from because what made the show so special was Summerhouse.

53:31Oti: To be fair, one of the major criticisms I had for Kin was they just wanted to move within the neighborhood. They didn't know. They didn't care about the supply, the whatever. It was just, Oh, my neighbor, my neighbor is going to get it for me. It's just going to come in the yoddly. I'm like, bruh, just go, go get your connect. Go get your connect and I appreciated the fact that Top Boy wanted to go that far They wanted to expand the world because you have to

54:02KT: Finish your vegetables before you get to the main meat, my love.

54:06Oti: But there's an it there's a situation where your veggies In a different state.

54:12KT: They couldn't even do gentrification right. Why would you want them to expand to the

54:16Oti: bro? The scares were, I was super because we, we watched Kin and we compared it to a myriad of other shows we were watching. I was always, they, that major issue was the Connect and they acted as if there was only one connect in the world and, and that is not true. And Top Boy tried to Rec Top Boy did it different and knew that. Hey, we don't need to get our connect from these guys. We can do our own shit

54:38KT: But in what world does Lizzie survive as long as she did? Yeah, that's just some bullshit.

54:41Oti: that's just some bullshit

54:42KT: Like, it actually didn't make any sense. None of it really added to the story. Because, again, the story was Summerhouse and the friends and lovers that we grew to love. Not to say that you can't expand the story, because, you know, we see it in Snowfall. Um, we also see it in Gomorrah as

55:00Oti: Fucking Kieran dies and fucking Lizzie lives. What justice is that?

55:03KT: Well, Oti, I will point you to your assigned reading of who wrote and created the show.

55:08Oti: Hehehehe Uh, yeah.

55:13KT: It might, maybe I will concede on this point, friends and lovers. It might just be because I only saw the value of this show in what the talent brought in it. So I didn't care to expand it. Does that make sense?

55:28Oti: It makes sense. And I really enjoyed this show up until the last season, where I felt they just shat the bed, but I enjoyed the character arcs and development that I went through, that I felt that did so much. For, that did so much, you know, in bringing entertainment and joy to my life, and I enjoyed every bit of it. I think there'll be aspects and semblances of this show that I will continue remembering, and that's about it.

55:56KT: Um, if I can be honest, all five seasons felt like Kendall from Succession shitting the bed. We might not even do a last season of Succession, Friends and Lovers. Hit up our DMs, um, if you want to know why. But, uh, Top Boy, I will, um, acknowledge is a cultural phenomenon. Um, some might even say it's not even my place. as a non Black person to comment on Top Boy. Um, but it's also a non Black person's place to create the show. So... Ha But I thought, I thought Connor said if it needs to be said it's unsaid.

56:37Oti: is unsaid, that's for sure.

56:39KT: Well I, I think we're done unless you have anything else to say, Oti.

56:42Oti: Nah, that's me done.

56:44KT: that's for sure. Hoo hoo hoo! What a chunky boy! And our daddy of daddy's, Oti. Um, we're going to finish off in a segment. We call For Your Reference, Oti.

56:54Oti: I am going to reference Gomorrah.

56:57KT: Oh, too good for this, but yes.

57:00Oti: Same side of the pond. Uh, he gets... Woah, woah, woah, It is.

57:06KT: Well, I guess we've learned something about Oti in the way he sees cultures.

57:11Oti: Uh, yeah, it, it's, it's a really, really good show. I think they take the drug game and the, uh, and just everything intricate about it to the next level. Um, amazing characters. The development is there. You get to fall in love with different myriad of characters throughout the whole show because they introduce different people all the time. So definitely an example of what they should have been. Or at least aimed to be in its final

57:39KT: Um, I will reference something of the same level of banding cause it doesn't deserve to be on the Mount Rushmore of the drug game genre, Kin.

57:50Oti: You're

57:51KT: Gangs of Dublin!

57:51Oti: you're just mad,

57:53KT: Oh, well at least, at least Kin had Aidan Gillen, Charlie Cox, the, the conflict of being a father and an absent father. Come on now.

58:03Oti: Oh yeah, and there's some bare black people in that show. I want to go to Ireland. I'll turn the recorder. I'll be like, Hey bru.

58:18KT: It also had Ciarán Hinds in it as well. Come on.

58:21Oti: Yeah. I'm

58:23KT: Untouchable. Um, but I guess so we can hold on to Oti's note about all the black people in Ireland. He's doing a census, friends and lovers. If you would also like to be part of the census of specifically Black people in Ireland on Twitter, Instagram, Spill and Bluesky, we're @ForYourRefPod.

58:41Oti: Write us an email, hello@fyrpodcast.com.

58:44KT: We're also on

58:45Oti: You're Lying.

58:48KT: and I like to study, I'm gonna die. Podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

58:58Oti: See ya.

59:00KT: Piss you.