The Wire – No Known A-Bodie

Full transcript of The Wire – No Known A-Bodie.

0:00KT: Good day. Welcome back to another week at For Your Reference. We're starting off with Quid Pro Mo. This is an iconic week. Calendar. We had a delicious discussion with Amy and Chuck from the Why I'm Single podcast, and it it turned into an all encompassing love letter to Baltimore. And it was amazing, and we really loved it. And we didn't get to really touch on everything

0:28KT: in The Wire, so that's why you're going to get two monstrous episodes this week on The Wire and also a bonus love letter to Baltimore with Amy and Chuck. So take the promo away.

0:42Clip: Are you single? Are you divorced, co parenting, married to a ghost pirate? Are you in an open relationship with a sword swaddler and a jouster at the Ren Fair? Do you love dating because you never thought you'd be single again? Do you find yourself mindlessly swiping on dating apps only to stumble into people you already know or already slept with? Well, sit back and relax and grab a cup of coffee and share a laugh or two with us. This is Why I'm Single. Please look for Why I'm Single wherever you listen to podcasts.

1:10Clip: And remember, don't be a douchebag.

1:38KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You've got your host, KT.

1:38Oti: And Oti.

1:38KT: And grab your stick up crew and finish installing that stained glass window because, shit, we are covering The Wire today.

1:38Oti: Yeah. I that sounds like a song.

1:38KT: It does, doesn't it? Yep. Coming out. Oti's a fake Oti's mixtape coming out next As

2:07KT: you guys would have heard in the intro, we will have a bonus episode coming out with Amy and Chuck. Again, thank you so much for coming on to our show and giving us more of a spiel in regards to Baltimore. So definitely make sure you subscribe to check that out. But today, we will be focusing more on the characters on The Wire, and we love you guys. You know? You're a friend and a lover, like Usher and Lil Jon and Ludacris will say.

2:36KT: And that's why we wanted to treat you guys today. So let's get into it. Let's get into the stats. 2002 to 2008, we were blessed with HBO's The Wire. Creator, David Simon, police journalist for The Baltimore Sun, and also Ed Burns who was a police detective and also a public school teacher for some time as well. So, you know, if you watch Family Guy, because we do love a good reference around here, there's a little cutaway where people talk about, you know, if they're not saying The Wire is the best show,

3:16KT: it's either The Wire or Breaking Bad, essentially. And I think it's just universally accepted that whether you've seen The Wire or not, it is reserved for that top tier sort of shelf of shows. Yep. Right? The highest of echelons. The highest of all of your shons. Dominic West. You're most welcome, my love. Dominic West, John Doman, Deirdre Lovejoy, Wendell Pierce, Lance Reddick, Put your weapons down. Mhmm. That's a John Wick reference. You're most welcome. And a whole slew of talented, vibrant, expansive, some even Baltimorean actors as well. Mhmm. So let's dive into it, Oti.

4:00KT: We're all ready. We pretty much know the gist of The Wire, but let's get let's get into it. Let's get into first impressions.

4:10Oti: So wow. I think you're the one that made me watch The Wire.

4:10KT: Acknowledge me as your king and queen.

4:10Oti: No. I've I heard about The Wire. I just did I don't know. No one in my circles was saying, oh, The Wire is the best thing ever when it came out.

4:10KT: Maybe your circles are too flat.

4:10Oti: Probably so.

4:10KT: It wasn't a thing in Kenya?

4:10Oti: Not that it wasn't a thing. I just have no idea why I didn't watch it before we met. Like, I have no reason whatsoever.

4:40KT: I've I've fulfilled my life's calling. I'm waiting to be exalted to heaven now. Oh, yeah. And how did well, when you when you watched it because, obviously, you knew about the hype and everyone always says it's pretty much the best show ever. How did it live up to that? Did it exceed it? Were you disappointed? What was what were the feels?

4:59Oti: When we met and you're like, oh, you've got to watch The Wire. It's the best thing ever. And watching it, I think season one just caught me by the balls. I was like, Jesus, this is a good show.

4:59KT: That was actually me catching you by the balls, but that's fine.

4:59Oti: It was pretty it was pretty dark room, so I must have confused my McNulty's hands to yours.

5:25KT: Spot on it. Yeah. Spot on it. And that's another reference.

5:28Oti: But yeah. Like, I really, really did enjoy it. Season two, I wasn't so sure about it watching it the first time. It didn't really make sense to me, especially after going from the hood then going to the docks I was like what is this?

5:43KT: I think that's but that's a universal experience.

5:46Oti: No like yeah for the first for the first time watching it and then we rewatched it well I think we've watched this like three four times now Yes. It was like, it makes sense.

5:57KT: Nice. And I've watched The Wire so many times in the best of ways. And I I know I say this in quite a lot of our podcast episodes, but if it wasn't for Oti, I would literally be watching the same five shows, like, over and over. And The Wire would be in that rotation, definitely. I just I really love when the show is there because there's a reason to be there, and it's not just monotonous drivel, and it's trying to compete with other shows that are out there.

6:32KT: HBO will always be the giants in regards to quality. You know, there's a reason why it's called home box office because you're getting that cinematic sort of experience, and you're getting that, you know, expansive sort of narrative within a TV show as well. And and The Wire, it delivers on every satiating crescendo.

6:56Oti: Yeah. True. And by the time The Wire was coming out, HBO I've known HBO from Oz and The Sopranos. So it was like when they put something out, especially this doesn't negate the fact that I didn't watch it. It was just that I I was aware and I was like, I'd get to it sometime. That was me with Deadwood though.

7:19KT: Yeah. Pretty much okay. As we all know, I'm the sheriff of Daddywood very proudly.

7:27Oti: That's debatable.

7:29KT: You better take your unauthorized peaches off my table. Unauthorized cinnamon. Cinnamon. I'm ashamed.

7:29Oti: You should be.

7:29KT: A thousand Paul Bettany lashes to me.

7:41Oti: Angels and demons. Right? Yeah. You're most Why are you whining yourself?

7:48KT: Why am I describing our Friday nights? Who knows? We're trying to open it up to the world. But coming back to The Wire, it was oh, you just the writing was great. The acting was great. And, you know, to even know that David and Ed, you know, are from Baltimore and they are in the sectors that are being covered within The Wire, it really shines through. It doesn't need to have that depth of detail for people to watch it. But for someone like me that really,

8:19KT: you know, finds myself wanting to immerse myself in the world of a TV show, tick tick tick tick tick. Everything.

8:28Oti: Having Idris there made it easier for you to immerse yourself in there as well, isn't it? He immersed himself in Donette.

8:35KT: Wow. Can we just talk about Stringer Bell and Donette, D'Angelo's wifey?

8:42Oti: Oh, yeah. That was some Ichigo Rukia apo pairing up.

8:49KT: It's been a while since we've mentioned anime, so thank you very much. Yeah. So, yeah, that those size proportions, it's definitely a niche as our American friends like to say in a porn hub section.

9:04Oti: Oh, yeah. Big ass daddy.

9:05KT: Wide ass daddy. That's an Archer reference. It's For Your Reference, guys. But let's dive into our number one. The the the most slovenly, most lovingly drunken Irishman, Jimmy motherfucking McNulty.

9:25Oti: Wow. Yeah. How would you describe McNulty?

9:29KT: I think he's just I don't even know how to describe him. I will pull a line from the show is he's a dog with a bone. Whether it's his literal bone or it's a case. He just he he's he's functional in a few things, and in everything else, he just falls apart. Yeah. And, you know, Bunk and also Landsman, when they're appealing to Rawls, they said he's not good for anything else. This is him right here. Natural police.

10:04Oti: True. And it's just weird that while watching it the first time I thought, okay. I like McNulty and all. Mhmm. But some shit he was pulling in this show, I did not I was like, fire up.

10:16KT: But he didn't start off that way. Like, if He did not start off talking about, like, in of early the system being so broken No. But in earlier had to color outside the line. But in earlier seasons, it wasn't season five McNulty. I'm talking about season one McNulty. He just wanted to do real work, and he wanted to make real change.

10:43KT: But as you mentioned, the systems and the authorities surrounding him didn't didn't allow an environment to do proper work Yeah. Because of political pressures, which we'll get into and all that sort of stuff. But he he found ways usually via Judge Phelan, but he found ways to get the job done. Unfortunately, he would leave a trail behind him of people he had stepped on and people that he had used to get there. Yeah. And that becomes a problem. But he was so good at what he did.

11:23KT: He was so good at what he did, and he had so much passion for it, and he had such a sense about it. Right? Spoiler spoilers spoilers, but if you haven't watched The Wire,

11:34KT: get the out of here. Shit.

11:37KT: They're still our friends and lovers. No. But it's it's

11:43Oti: hi, Kolby. We're talking to you right now. Oh, Kolby hasn't watched this. No. He has not. Oh, piss right off. Kolby, you don't listen. I know we're doing

11:54KT: And and we're going to have an episode. Collab with Kolby for Power. So,

11:59Oti: mate, get to it.

12:03KT: We love you, Kolby. Hashtag fake Oti doesn't know what he's talking about. And we most welcome you to our pod but you know what? Like, sometimes, like, I am ashamed that I never watched Deadwood until recently.

12:15Oti: Yeah. You should be.

12:17KT: I do, but you like it that way. And again, we're not talking about our Friday nights. We're talking about the motherfucking Wire. So again, shout outs to Kolby.

12:27Oti: Making you walk around the living room naked shouting shame. Shame.

12:33KT: See see, Kolby? You just got a sexual reference sandwich of your name being mentioned. Are you proud of yourself?

12:33Oti: Yep. Super proud.

12:33KT: Do you feel like a big man?

12:33Oti: I am a big man.

12:33KT: I can see it. Can we continue?

12:33Oti: Yep.

12:33KT: My point was we are going to talk about the in-depth The Wire. And if you haven't seen The Wire, continue to listen along. You know, if you miss us and you wanna hear us talk about the iconic show and you haven't watched it, you're most welcome. But,

13:07KT: you know, Pinky promise that you'll still watch The Wire even if you're listening. Cool. So let's continue. In regards to McNulty as a character, I he he was a scumbag. Like, he he wasn't the best morally. He let his dick and his need to close a case guide a lot of his decisions. Mhmm. And again, there were some casualties along the way. He didn't respect authority. He he really shaped things up as well. But, you know, even Lester mentioned to him, I think it was around season three,

13:48KT: around the time that Daniels had to rescope The Unit and they weren't chasing Avon and Stringer or Stringer specifically anymore. And Lester said, what do you have after this case ends? Life is what happens while you're waiting for all of the other shit to happen. Yep. And there there was so much in in the development of McNulty's character. There were so many you know, I've mentioned, like, three, four examples of different characters just mentioning that. And even Bunk when he was drunk in the bunk bed. But he also said to McNulty,

14:28KT: you're no good for anyone.

14:30Oti: And that was sad. It was sad. But some things needed saying, and you could tell that it stuck with McNulty.

14:36KT: But he never really I guess not until, like, the end. Like, literally the end. That's where possibly because it didn't really say where he went from there and and what, you know, what sort of direction he would go in. But it did seem like he was a bit born again. Born again?

14:56Oti: Like, religiously born again. No. Okay.

15:00KT: Go yourself.

15:02Oti: Do you claim? Mate, I just worried you watched the Mormon version of The Wire.

15:09KT: The the Mormon version of The Wire would be ten seconds if you walk through the nah. It can't be garden. It's too sexual. Plus the Lord be white. This Presbylowski. Just for, like, ten seconds. Yep. Are you welcome? Yep. Are you most welcome? Reference, guys. If you didn't think you were gonna learn anything about the Mormon church or you were very, very deceived.

15:38Oti: You are. Especially when we're talking about The Wire.

15:41KT: I did not see one iota of a Mormon missionary there. Going back to McNulty, the most opposite in the world, I think he was quite he was a perfect protagonist for The Wire. And The Wire is so expansive, and all of the characters have multiple dimensions to them. But I would argue that the the series does start and end with a McNulty, and I would argue that he is the protagonist.

16:09KT: He's pretty much the driving force for a lot of things that happen. Mhmm. And he's also not a perfect character. I've mentioned this in a couple of podcast episodes, but I don't care if characters aren't perfect. Mhmm. What starts to piss me off about characters is when they think that their shit don't stank. Mhmm. And they think they're perfect. Right? Yeah. That's what really bothers me. So it's it's nice, and I like seeing him go on his drunken sort of tirades.

16:41KT: And he's he's fun, and he's very likable. And if there was an actor that was less than, McNulty could definitely come off as an unlikable asshole.

16:51Oti: Yeah. True. He really does deliver it. And he said that he didn't know what happened to him after The Wire, but I think there's a crossover with The Affair where he continues. He left Beadie and started cheating with Ruth Wilson.

17:06KT: So He stopped being a police, but he kept affairing. Yep.

17:12Oti: But his his remember when Stringer dies and Uh-huh. McNulty is there just feeling all their heart as if he'd just lost a relative?

17:24KT: But it's like, on a real level, that's all he had. Right? Like, no one in my work listens to this podcast. So I'm going to put my manager on blast. Like, there are some people that you work with and it's literally their whole life. Right? Yeah. And it's everything to them. And it's like it to the point of where it's kind of sad.

17:24Oti: Says the person that has her own podcast.

17:24KT: Everyone's got a podcast these days. Right? But McNulty was that person. He he sought all gratification in one basket,

18:07KT: which is always a problem. Yeah. He did. Find another hole to get your satisfaction. Spice things up, guys. Get it together. Let's focus on the push and pull dynamic between Avon Barksdale and Stringer Bell. Woah. So Avon is the real OG.

18:29Oti: Like, all he knows is the street. He doesn't want to change who he is. He's just the gangster, I suppose. Yeah. For sure, mate. And you see his relationship with Stringer Bell you could tell they're pretty close from the get go from the start of the season and then by the time it gets to season three you'll see the relationship them going on different directions. Yep. Because Stringer wants to become more of a businessman. He wants to why just

18:59Oti: stick with ruling the streets when you could control the city? Yeah. And Avon is like, I got them towers, mate. That's all I need.

19:11KT: He like, if if if Avon and Stringer were to play monopoly, like, Avon would just keep buying houses and hotels on his one on his little section, and Stringer would be trying to buy out everything, including the utilities and the railway station. Right? Yeah. But it was interesting to see their dynamic just just grow into fruition. And like you mentioned, they did diverge and grow in separate directions. And there was a really sobering moment near the end of the series where they had both planned hits on each other.

19:48KT: And

19:50KT: they were reminiscing about the good old days.

19:53Oti: Well, Stringer's wasn't really a hit. It was about to get Avon arrested, and Avon had actually planned for Brother to kill Stringer.

19:59KT: Oh, he just gave Brother the permission to do so. But maybe it denotes to that because Avon is a gangster, and he just wants to, you know, get it done. And then Stringer's just trying to be amicable about it. Yeah.

20:15KT: Because we there was a stint where Avon was in jail and Stringer really enjoyed having all the power. And that's that's the slip no. But that's a slippery slope because you want a great lieutenant or a second in charge, but you don't want them to have ambitions beyond you. Chris Partlow is a very good example. Oh, yeah. And Slim Charles as well because they were really strong just with it. They had the capabilities. They had the grunt. They had the power, but they didn't want to become the meme.

20:42Oti: Like, I'll be the best to what I see. You know? Yeah. And and and that's it. But Stringer, he was eyeing that seat. Me, he wanted that cake. Everyone wants Idris' cake.

20:58KT: Unfortunately, it's a married cake now, but what can you do? But that that was such an interesting sort of dynamic because then you see you know, even the first start of the series, like, Avon doesn't go near anything. It's Stringer. Right? And, oh, it's just it's sad to see that they grew apart and they had different ambitions, but it had to happen.

21:19Oti: It did have to happen. Like, it got to a point where they both lost sort of some respect for each other.

21:30KT: There was there was no way going back, and they would never be complete again. And, you know, it's something I just wanna catch off about Avon and Stringer is as as ruthless as Avon was and annoying as it was when he came back from jail and he still wanted to shoot up people on the corner, what I really admired about Avon is he had that sense of loyalty, and he had that sense of taking care of your own. Mhmm. Stringer didn't. No.

21:58KT: Stringer just didn't care about anyone. He didn't care about anyone working for him. And he just literally like, he was all about business.

22:07Oti: Yeah.

22:08KT: So many people needed help in his camp, and he didn't help them.

22:14Oti: So true. Even and the weird thing is the whole time he had he was in charge. He didn't get any of his guys. He didn't get people. Actually, he was just leveraging off Avon's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a ship. You know, for someone who's went to business school, mate, you need to create your own You need to clean out the camp. Empire. Clean out the camp. Yeah. Get your own people in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because Stringer just found out that he's being hustled by Clay Davis.

22:42Oti: And Krawczyk the developer. Yeah. And he goes to Slim and says, Slim, I need you to take someone out. A senator. And Slim is like, no, man. I ain't doing that. If even if they were, like, still buddies, Avon would have probably just told Slim, yo. Do it.

22:42KT: Nah. Avon wouldn't have done that, though, because Avon a

22:42Oti: I'm just saying if they were still buddies, they probably would have, regardless of whether or not they wanted to kill a senator.

22:42KT: Right. Good for you. But in that actual

23:12KT: if if if an Australian says good for you or good on you, it's not good for you or good on you. But in that actual scene, when I was gonna say Idris. When Stringer was trying to order that hit, Avon was like, nah, man. Like, you're gonna get CNN. Like, you're gonna get international attention Yeah. On this. You're not gonna do that. Right?

23:36KT: And, oh, man. It's just like

23:36Oti: But it was also because of what Stringer was doing. And the

23:36KT: No. But you don't kill politicians. It it it brings too much attention. So a my point to you is, Avon wouldn't have done that. But I agree to your point that he should have cleaned out the camps and had his own muscle. Because as you start to see as the series ends and his demise, he had no one with him. He was literally on his own. He had he had alienated

24:06KT: his his, you know, all of the people that he had even though they weren't his. And he tried to he he had one foot in his old world, and then he had one foot in the new world that he doesn't know how to navigate, and he got it taken advantage of.

24:06Oti: I don't even think he had a foot in his old world. Like, he he was so crap. He ordered a hit for on Omar on a Sunday morning.

24:06KT: Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. He didn't respect the rules.

24:30Oti: Yeah. When you look back at it, he could have been so much smarter than this. That microeconomics thing didn't teach him shit.

24:36KT: That's some hella woke shit. Mhmm. You know, that's right. Cheap. I know that's right. But, yeah, Stringer just it was weird because he was acting like he didn't know how things ran. It's

24:52KT: like he just came like Brother Mouzone. Like, he didn't know how things ran in Baltimore, or maybe he just didn't care, and he just wanted to do things in a ruthless manner. But it's like, you wanna go legit, and then you wanna order a hit on a politician. It just doesn't work. And even speaking about Brother, he made it so obvious that it was him that ordered the hit on.

25:09Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Far out. Stringer was not smart at all. For all the good he wanted to not good. For all the things he wanted to do for him and Avon, he needed a better brain behind that.

25:20KT: I think he maybe it was just arrogance. Maybe he just thought he'll never get caught. Because I don't was smarter than everyone else in the room, which is in the case. I don't think he was dumb.

25:32Oti: Mate, he'd made dumb decisions. Oh, yeah. Totally. Just saying. Alright. Well, you remember blustard. We spoke with maths.

25:39KT: Oh, Oti MAFs. Yeah. But that you know, and that's what made The Wire so strong, and that's what made people latch onto it in the first season. And understandably, because it's such a strong dynamic. You have Avon, and at that time, Stringer was just a lieutenant. Right? Not I think lieutenant is a lower rank. He was a two IC. Right? So you have Avon, you have Stringer, you have McNulty. We also meet Daniels as Rawls, as Landsman, and it's such a succinct story.

26:11KT: It really is. And you get attached to the characters and Bodie as well. And then out of nowhere in season two, it's about the port. So I can see why people got annoyed at that. But after watching The Wire for, like, six, seven, eight times, it actually makes sense in the grand scheme of the narrative. It really does. And

26:31Oti: it's so rare that you find good characters on both sides of the of the line, like Oh, yeah. The bad guys aren't the good guys. Yeah. Usually, you're all just rooting for the bad guys, you know, or the good guys. To be able to say that you enjoyed performances from both sides, and you had, you know, McNulty, Bunk, you have Lester, all good guys, all top notch performances. And then on the other side, you have Avon, killing it, Stringer Bell, Morty, Wallace, Poot.

27:01KT: You were really building up to something amazing.

27:08Oti: I had to mention your favorite character, mate.

27:11KT: Stringer. Stringer's favorite.

27:14Oti: Stringer had some things with Boot.

27:17KT: So let let's talk about it. And again, hello non-Wire watchers. If you're still listening, please turn away because this is quite pivotal. Wallace. He was not made for the streets, man. You know why he reminds me He was of fine, but it was just when he saw that spread eagle shit on Omar's boyfriend. Spread eagle. And he and it was caused by his actions. He called D'Angelo. D'Angelo called Stringer, and then the deed was done. Right? How does a kid handle that? How does a kid navigate that?

27:52KT: Well And he was also living in the vacants as well. So it was not like he was from a functioning, you know, family and had some sort of stability, whether it's emotionally or financially. How do you how do you navigate something like that? That's some real life shit from some poor little kid having to deal with that. Yeah. He just didn't think about what him calling D'Angelo would mean.

28:13Oti: No. I think he knew, but he just

28:13KT: No. He didn't. He didn't realize it. He didn't think things through. He just thought they'll just mess up the guy and that's it.

28:13Oti: Well, in any case, whether he believed it or not, he also saw what happened to the kid. Right? Yeah. They really messed up Omar's boyfriend. But

28:34KT: Brandon, I think his name was. Yeah.

28:37Oti: Sad. Really sad. Very sad. I would say that Wallace is similar to

28:43KT: Randy?

28:44Oti: No. Not Randy. Name Namond. Namond. Oh, vomit. I feel I've they're exactly the same sort of characters. Trust Because

28:56KT: Wallace wasn't spoiled. Namond was.

28:59Oti: No. They were still both not meant for the streets like the two essentially.

28:59KT: Saying you and me are the same because we're humans.

29:06KT: Questionable. Like, if you're gonna move that far back enough to associate them, then, yeah, we're all from Gondwanaland. Like, what are you what are you trying to further theorize, my friend? I'm just saying.

29:23Oti: Namond was weak ass in the street, same as Wallace.

29:28KT: I I don't agree with that, and I don't wanna I don't wanna waste the airwaves. I wanna focus a bit on the homicide department and a bit more on the police because we're going to branch out into the other seasons. But I wanna spend a bit of time talking about Bunk and a few others. So let's start with Bunk.

29:48Oti: He's that dependable guy who'll call your bullshit out if you know. He won't stand any fools, which is good. You need someone like that at least. Yeah. Everyone does. Mhmm.

30:00KT: He plays lacrosse.

30:05Oti: Even Archer's best friend.

30:08KT: One of my favorite moments is when they're eating crabs in the and Bunk needs a favor from McNulty. And he's like, come on. Show the Bunk some love. And McNulty says, if you want some love, come sit on my lap. That was fun. But they had like you said, they had a very good dynamic together, and they didn't they Bunk mostly kept Jimmy in line as much as you can keep someone like that in line. And, you know, even later on in the series,

30:41KT: he just he just checked out. He just checked out from everything McNulty was doing.

30:47Oti: Because it was rough. Is a line.

30:49KT: Yeah.

30:50Oti: And the thing that really did piss me off is well, not really pissed me off, but even though Bunk didn't agree with what McNulty was doing Mhmm. He was still loyal. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mate, that cannot be said for Kima, who just

31:08KT: still don't get it.

31:10Oti: I still don't get it. And Kima was such a solid character until that point to and I was like, no. No. This is shit.

31:23KT: If you guys have watched The Wire and you actually understand and you agree with, like, that it's consistent with Kima's character, feel free to tweet us because that felt so wrong. Like, I would have believed Sydnor would have done that first before Kima. Because Kima was right in the ranks. Right? She was a pup. And they took her like, they took her under their wing. And that made no sense at all. And they they kind of tried to allude to the fact that she was a mini McNulty. Yeah. So McNulty would never do that. I don't know. It just seemed like

31:54KT: actually, I don't even understand what her motivation was because she wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it anyway. It was a plot device, surely.

32:01Oti: Because that that made Because they had to find a way to for the Get caught. Yeah. To get caught. But for Kima to do it, I was like, that doesn't just make any sense. Because she spoke to McNulty.

32:13KT: She spoke to Lester. She spoke to someone else, and then she still decided to go and, like, snitch. Spoke to Carver. It was Carver Thunder. Yes, actually. Well, but Carver Carver was approached when he snitched, though. Yeah. And we kind of didn't really we weren't really surprised that he was a snitch. Kima was in the trenches with McNulty and also with Lester. It just made no sense. Yeah. In season one, they were like cheek to cheek.

32:42Oti: Oh my. Is that the expression? I feel like there's a body part where hand to hand? Nah. I prefer cheek to cheek.

32:42KT: Urethra to urethra.

32:53KT: Listen to our Black Mirror episode, guys.

32:56Oti: But, yeah, it was just quite ridiculous to me.

33:00KT: Yeah. That that made no sense at all. And even at the end when Kima

33:04Oti: went in first stop to Lester and McNulty outside the pub, I was like Fuck off. I felt like just throw something on my head or something. But

33:15KT: that the the story where she gets shot, that was quite an emotional moment. Oh, yeah. That was really sad. So that's why I was like, I don't know why you had to ruin her character. But anyway, anyway, she says there's a quote which is one of the quotes that come at the start of on the episodes where she says, you know, if I hear the music, I'm gonna dance.

33:35Oti: She's gonna snitch too. Yeah. She's gonna snitch. She's gonna dance. She's gonna be a

33:41KT: deadbeat mom. Can we yeah. Can we can we no. Actually, can we talk about that for a second? I wanna like, thank you for bringing that up. I just don't get it. I don't get it, guys. Like, why didn't she communicate, I don't want a child?

33:54Oti: Sometimes it's just easy to go along, you know, and then lose that shit afterwards.

34:00KT: Yeah. But then you get miserable and then you go, you know, on your little nights with your little waitresses. Like, why don't why don't you just say it? Why don't you just say it?

34:00Oti: She was afraid of hurting her feelings of making her think that she wasn't ready or in this relationship.

34:00KT: That's easy. It's like, oh, I accidentally fell into another pussy.

34:00Oti: No, man. Oh, that thing happens, mate.

34:00KT: Okay. Well, you're most welcome.

34:23Oti: But it was really ridiculous, though. Like, they've been together for a couple of years, and she should be comfortable enough to tell her, hey. I'm not ready for a kid right now because it changed the whole dynamic. Then you leave your partner to raise a child on her own. She moved on quickly, though. Oh, she she she did. Clearly, the one that had a shortage of suitors, mate. She was very similar to Marla Daniels

34:52KT: Oh. As well.

34:55Oti: I don't like Marla at all. But, like, don't try and change your partner. Right? Because both of them You knew them when you're getting on with them, you know, when you're getting together. You knew what what kind of person they were.

35:07KT: But dodgy snitches aside, Kima is natural police. It's like she she's got skills. She's got talent even with the potato silences. Yeah. Right? She is very talented. And to try and make her something that she isn't and to then want to have a child, you know, the the least Kima could have done was just express how she felt True. Which is what she didn't do. So what do the Americans call it? A PSA, a public service announcement from the For Your Reference household in 2019 voiced by KT and endorsed by KT.

35:46KT: If you are not feeling, you know, to to the maximum of your joy in a relationship, then communicate it. Yeah. And then if you if you wanna go and fall into a pussy and fall fall onto a dick and impale yourself on that new dick, then you do that. But communicate at first. I really don't understand how it's that hard. Yeah. But, again, you know, I I live amongst you guys. I I am not claiming deity to anything, and I'm not perfect. But, you know, when it comes to communication,

36:26KT: pow pow. I'm a straight shooter. So true. Okay. So we have a really cute sort of duo with McNulty and Bunk. Let's go to another dynamic duo, Herc and Carver. Oh my god.

36:40Oti: Like, Herc is just an example of what not to be. He was so mismatched. He he did not belong in that police department. He reminded me of that guy who Carver snitched on, but to a lesser extent, less annoying because Herc at least was a bit more capable of following orders and doing some police work. Mhmm. He just needed the right tutelage. Yeah. And Farrah,

37:09Oti: I did not like Herc the first time watching The Wire. I really just he pissed me right off. But he wasn't the worst of the bunch. No. He wasn't the worst. But he was very likable.

37:20KT: Do you remember when, finally, they needed him to go undercover because they were going on a different side of Baltimore where the drug dealers were white? Near the port. Yeah. Well, he had his whole little and his toothpick. Yep. And Carl was like, if he throws that toothpick one more time. So good. Yeah. But I think he he landed in a place that made sense for him in the private sector. Yeah. And he's going to continue to gather intel buying drinks for the police

37:53KT: and just you know? And I think that was quite a big theme in The Wire as well. Nets are very important. Mhmm. You have, like, Norman and Gus knowing each other, which is quite a delicious duo Yeah. As well. And, you know, connections and networks were very important in regards to The Wire. So, you know, Herc was in good standing even though he was with Levy. Do you remember the scene in the courtroom with Levy and Omar?

38:20Oti: Oh, that was that was amazing. So good. Omar telling Levy that what's the difference between the two of them? Because he's using a shotgun and he's just using his lawyering.

38:32KT: Exactly. And and this and that courtroom scene is the only other iteration of Parasite I will accept. Yeah.

38:42Oti: That was really good. And the thing, again, with Herc is he rose the ranks so quickly before he had to

38:42KT: But he did well on the sergeant's exam.

38:42Oti: Yeah. Better than Carver. But Carver got it because he snitched. Yeah. Yeah. But then he got his stripes because he walked in on the mayor being sucked on. Yes. So guys, if you want to get a promotion that's eluding you at your workplace, hang around the office hang around your boss's office. There'll be that moment where you're walking on them and be like, mate,

39:14Oti: I need a raise.

39:16KT: Yeah. But you might be hanging around too long and they'll be like, do you want this raise?

39:22Oti: You take it, don't you take you take both raises, mate.

39:28KT: But, yeah, he was he was definitely in the right place.

39:31Oti: Yeah. For sure. And what about Carver? I think oh, Carver I don't think there's anyone who's disappointed me more in this show than Carver.

39:41KT: Like, constantly? Constantly. Frequently. Yep. But I kind of he he you know what? He didn't start off perfect, but he's teachable. He's malleable, especially under the tutelage of Bunny Colvin. He changed.

39:59Oti: He was useless under Bunny Colvin. He didn't know anything. Yes. On a second.

40:04KT: Yes. But he did change this. Bunny said, every time I'm trying to get intel from my sergeant, I can't get anything. Because he didn't know anyone because he was just smashing heads on the street or whatever they call it. Right? But then he started to get to know the kids. Namond, Dukie,

40:23Oti: Randy Don't even get it. Michael. The way he handled Randy's case pissed me right off.

40:27KT: No. But you could see he tried. He tried what? What are you going to do? Are you going to pin, like, the adoption fostering system on Carver?

40:27Oti: No. No. Mate, he knows his friend, Herc, is useless as. And he trusted him. He

40:44Oti: trusts that kid's life Yeah. With Herc.

40:48KT: But he tried to make it right.

40:48Oti: But he walked away. He didn't do anything after that, did he?

40:48KT: No. He did. He tried. And then he was calling the agency, trying to get a placement for Randy. And then it got to the point where he's like, I'll do it. I'll foster him. Oh, know.

40:48Oti: Comes down to the adoption system. Mate, there are a lot of kids out there looking for homes.

41:10Oti: I know people have to be vigilant on who you allow the kid to go out to, but sometimes it feels like this system is just so restrictive Yeah. To the point where you're like, it's it's counterintuitive.

41:26KT: Yeah. And it's like, in this day and age, why is it easier to get a dodgy home loan and you can't even adopt a kid as easily?

41:35Oti: Well, we have to pay for the loan either way. Well, a kid is a kid's life, and I get that they have to be really strict on who they're allowed to. So many so many kids need homes.

41:46KT: Oh, I'm Baltimorean. Homes. But they don't get it. I don't know. It's ridiculous.

41:54Oti: And but Randy ended up in the system, and he had to tough up. He had to become a pain.

41:59KT: Oh, man. Oh, Oh, man. Oh, man. It does not matter. It does not even matter how many times I've watched The Wire. When his house caught ablaze and his foster mother was in hospital, and you see Randy there, and Carver rushes to the hospital. And he tries to talk to Randy, but, obviously, Randy is inconsolable, and he's not he's not even going to bother to try and talk to Carver. You know? Even earlier in the police station, he said, I've got, like, $237. Does that do anything?

42:31KT: Right? He was a sweet kid, and he was trying to hustle, and he was selling sweets in the school. And I'm getting emotional now just talking about but he was a really sweet kid. And you could see out of his group of, like, rascals, he he had the most promise yeah. He had the most promise and the most promise out of the streets. Yep. So when he was sitting in that waiting room and Carver comes and he tries to appeal to Randy, Randy just doesn't he doesn't respond. How you gonna look after me, Carver?

43:03Oti: How you gonna look after me? Oh. That was heartbreaking, man. Far out.

43:09KT: These are fucking kids, man. These are fucking kids having to go through this shit. And I know I remember you got really angry because in the scene where the house catches on fire, you got angry that the the police that was stationed there went to the fire.

43:09Oti: It's just being incompetent.

43:09KT: No. Because they're on a no. They're on a stakeout, and I'm sure there's a legal obligation. If you're near there, you have to go as a police.

43:09Oti: Not if you're on a stakeout.

43:38Oti: No. They're all just like, bastards. Yeah, man. Let's go.

43:43KT: It's ridiculous. What if what if I was the one that they needed to go to the court to and they didn't go to me because they're on a stakeout?

43:49Oti: You've been assigned a task. Do your bloody task.

43:54KT: Well, there you go. If it's not me and the arsenic with Oti, it's me burning somewhere else. But, man, that was such that was really, really sad. And I I feel like seeing Carver, that affected him. And when you see near the end of the series, you see him chasing all the little rascal kids, and he's getting to know another generation. Mhmm. And he even looked at the wall where they all had all their names on there.

44:22Oti: Can't a shame. Moments, though. Even when he in Hamsterdam, he sat up there. He he took money from the little town scene. No. But he even took the body away to help Bunny. Not even that. I'm talking about him trying to The kids. Better the community and putting the basketball court thing.

44:38KT: Yeah. And then it got damaged. Yeah. Yeah.

44:42Oti: Not it got damaged. They wrecked it. Still damaged

44:47KT: but yeah that that was very very sad but it was very heartwarming he had more character development than than other characters at least at least give him that much yeah I agree.

44:47Oti: He just disappointed me a lot in his decision making.

44:47KT: Totally. Let's let's talk about the ports. Let's focus on the ports for a little bit. So the way that season two is presented to us is our deliciously petty Valchek.

45:16KT: And

45:17KT: we happen upon this circumstance because he saved all of this money for the stained glass window to go into the local church. Somehow, our best friend Frank Sobotka was able to do that. So because he's so motherfucking petty and he couldn't weasel his way to get his stained glass window into there, he essentially created a task force because there's no way the ports are bringing in that much money.

45:41Oti: Yeah. It's pretty hard. And then when he goes and tries to ticket every person, every car that's parked outside the dock port, And Sobotka asks him, you know, you should you could have just come to me and ask Yeah. Before you do all this shit. Like, Farrah, I do not understand Valchek at all.

46:03KT: You there's nothing you need to understand. He's petty. He's gonna use all of his power to write tickets for no bloody reason just because he don't like you. Yeah. I guess there are people like that, aren't there? Remember when they stole his van? And they shipped it around around the world. Yeah. Even to Australia. I think it was Brisbane. Yeah. So that was quite nice as well. We've already said spoilers. But when Frank Sobotka dies, he actually ruefully smiles at the photograph of the surveillance van. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. Because it's kind of like

46:40KT: I'm sure he hated Frank, but it was a a playful sort of dance that they had together. Yeah. It wasn't like I'm gonna shoot you up because I don't like you. Right? But let's let's talk about the ports for a second. Did you have any sort of experience in Kenya about ports or anything? Because that's probably Mombasa, not Nairobi. Right? There are ports in Mombasa.

47:02Oti: Haven't really doubled it with that too much, but, man, Ziggy, Ziggy, Ziggy. If there's any caricature that pissed me right off, it's gonna say, dude, it's Ziggy.

47:13KT: But that's what I'm saying. He had no self awareness, and those are the characters that pissed me the fuck off. And he always felt like he needed to put on a show. Yeah. Like, even when he was he wasn't even around strangers or whoever. He's around, like, just Nicky.

47:29KT: He would make stuff up and tell stories. He wanted to be the center of attention. Yeah. But it's like, to your closest people, you don't need to pretend, but he pretended all the time. Yeah. And then he wonders why people are not taking him seriously. He made himself caricature. Exactly. And he got frustrated that people didn't see any dimension to him. Yeah. Yeah. You're in a suffering of your own making, my friend. Yep. True words have never been spoken about Ziggy. And, you know, he he messed up, like, three different packages

48:02KT: off White Mike, and then he ended up getting a package off Cheese. Shout out to Method Man, by the way. Yeah. He was great in this series. They killed my dog, man. That was quite a good moment when he was interrogated, and they were trying to pin murder onto him. Yeah. And then when they the the undoing was playing that recording. They shouldn't have played the recording. Up the wire for a dog. Literal. But how would you know?

48:30KT: So much of it is in code. How would you know he was talking about an actual dog? It's not true. But going back to Ziggy, like, he just he just couldn't do anything right. He just couldn't do anything right. But, you know, when when Nicky got on board and they started getting money, you know, he told Zig, like, lay low. Don't spend this money. And then he buys that $2,000 Leather jacket. Yeah. And he wears it to the port.

49:01Oti: He cannot be helped. It was just so apparent that he's going to snap because he just had issues. Him going off at Malakas. What is what's his name? Wow. Apologies to any Greek listeners. No. He kept saying malakas all the time. That's why I called him back. But he just shot him up all the same. Yeah. Far out. Even the kid that wasn't had nothing to do with it. Yeah.

49:29KT: Bloody hell. He ended up in prison. Right? That was the end for him? Yeah. Yep. That was the end for him. Yeah. But Zig, man and he had a big dick, but he didn't carry himself like that.

49:43Oti: Man, that was a really big dick. Right?

49:46KT: Especially because he's so small, so it looked even bigger.

49:46Oti: Have you recessed whether it's real or not?

49:46KT: You know, I have my secret finance folder. Cash your Ziggy's today. But let's talk about Nicky Sobotka, our pornstache. I really liked him. I really liked him as a character. And it was so sad that, you know, like a like a tragedy, all of the dominoes fell around him. Yeah. And it was literally just him by the end of it. We can we can keep talking about season two, but I just wanna capture off the finale

50:27KT: of season two. It was such a tense atmosphere because we get to a point where Frank's going to lay everything out. Right? He's going to give them everything in regards to his intel and what he knows about the distro. He talks. He goes to the secret location, and that's where we start to see because we knew at this time, we knew that there was a leak through the FBI. And we were just waiting for that FBI man not to not to send that, not to scan it off and, you know, make that information accessible

51:03KT: within the FBI. And then we start to see that transaction, that fax go through. All the while, Frank is going to meet up with Spiros and the Greek. And you have that song. That song with so much intensity and so much tragedy to the music. Right? And it had, like, some I don't even know what that instrument is called, but it really pulled to the emotion

51:28KT: of that scene. You have Frank literally getting out of his truck, but in that time, the FBI leak is calling Spiros and the Greek, telling them to shut it down. He's about to snitch on you. And in that moment, as viewers, we knew that Frank Sobotka was gonna die. He was many things, but he was a good man.

51:49Oti: Yeah. He was. He did try to make things right for his union. But the thing is the the shitty thing is he was right there with Lester and the team ready to confess. And they couldn't do it. Nah. Let's do it tomorrow. Let's get you a lawyer, Mae Fass. Let's get you a lawyer. For why? Fuck's sakes. Go grab a lawyer. Get him. Let him confess. You guys have been sitting on this waiting for a case to be built up, and then you send that guy home without any sort of protection.

52:20KT: But that makes no sense because when we watch When They See Us, they got kids to sign statements without parents and without lawyers. So I don't understand. If you guys are learned lawyer people or you understand the system more than we do, please send us a email or tweet us because I don't understand. Why did they need a lawyer there? Why couldn't he just tell them what it was and just sign it? I have no idea. Because that was that was that was a tragedy. And when Nicky, the next day, found out

52:50KT: and he was driving to the site and he saw the car there, man, there was so much built up emotion in that season.

52:57Oti: There really was. Like, wow. They had so much depth and and and because it's it's so relatable. Right? Yeah. Like, your everyday sort of union try people trying to get work, And then they couldn't even get work because they were young until just went to the experienced guys. Yeah. So I wonder when when exactly would they even get work because it would always just go to the oldies.

53:24KT: Yeah.

53:27Oti: It's just shitty situation through and through. Because it it talks about that pressure. It does talk about that pressure. And the fact that when Sobotka was trying to get that bill passed about getting, I think, the dredging in or something like that Uh-huh. They came up with a proposal of automating everything.

53:44KT: Yeah.

53:46Oti: Oh, that was annoying ass. Because for those

53:46KT: But it's so realistic, isn't it?

53:46Oti: But for those sorts of industries, it would really hurt the employment rate.

53:51KT: Yep.

53:55Oti: Yep. So true. If you have kids right now, try and get them to do things that are not going to be automated anytime soon.

54:02KT: Yeah. I always I always spill my seed in front of our Google Home Mini just so I can be spared in the in the digital afterlife. But it is, like and and that's like maybe we need to find, like, a movie that will allow us a bigger discussion on this, but there there is genuine concern for, you know, the transition from manual jobs to automating and AI Yeah. As well. Because, yes, you know, people will need to look after those machines, but there's a big skill gap there. There is. And even then, for every,

54:41KT: you know, thousand of people, you only need one machine. So there's only so many, like, positions that you can fill there. And that's just the reality of it. Right? We're not we're not all just on farms now. We have shops where we can go and get that produce.

54:58Oti: So true. So I guess it's just like a new age that we need to adapt to and we need to account for. Yeah. And that's something good about The Wire. Like, it raised a lot of issues of, like, everyday people would face regardless of where you are in the world. Just not restricted to Baltimore. Like, it was super relatable.

55:17KT: And, you know, everyone can feel the effects that good and bad in a community as well. And that's that's how you know you have a good show because there are layers of resonating that you can have within your own frame of reference that is in Baltimore, if you're not from Baltimore. And The Wire stitches that so perfectly together. And, you know, if you've watched The Wire and you didn't care for season two, I would implore you to try it again. And even on a, like, even on a ethical level,

55:54KT: like, it's so easy to, you know, look at addicts and say, you know, you know, you just stop taking drugs. That's the easy way out and that sort of thing. But it's also these drugs are being like delivered to this area right right at your bigger issue essentially right the drugs are coming from somewhere being sold so people are benefiting and that's why it continues to happen, unfortunately.

56:21KT: Yeah. Right? It's not just in isolation. And the same thing with the ports. Right? You know, they have to, you know, do some weasley things on the side, which is what Frank Sobotka was doing anyway. That's how they were introduced. It wasn't Nicky and Ziggy that, you know, had the connect. But the reason why they did that was for the livelihood of everyone that was working on the port. So, you know, in in so many instances, even with the police in Baltimore, right, the the budget got slashed because

56:51KT: Carcetti didn't take that money that he was going to use for the schools. So he pretty much shorted the police budget. Right? Yet they were still expected to deliver even more than they would have Yeah. If they had the resources and if they had the money. Yet the question is, why is there crime? So why are all these things happening without any context of the lack of structures and services that you're providing?

57:19Oti: Yeah. And then it all just goes down to schools and where it all starts, like the problem areas. Remember when Bunny was told to go and get this project because there's a researcher coming to see the kids and trying to identify where the issues were. Mhmm. And then the guy was like, oh, I think we're gonna start with the 18 year old people. 18 to 21 year old. 21 before they hadn't. Mate, they hadn't way, way, way before that, which is really sad, isn't it?

57:52KT: Yeah. It it's it's sad that these kids are already experiencing street life. And, again, we we don't know much more than what we're seeing in The Wire. But in the context of The Wire, it was sad that, you know, even at 14, some of them were already above reproach. Some of them already had developmental behavioral issues that that were going to take years to address. Right?

58:17Oti: Yeah.

58:18KT: And and that was quite a sad, you know, that was quite a sad reality because these kids shouldn't even be worrying about stuff like that. They're coming from broke broken homes. Right? It's just not right. But it's nice. It seemed like they got some sort of traction, you know, with Namond's and Zenobia and the other fella. And we talked about that in our bonus episode, so you can hear more about it there. But it it was quite an interesting

58:47KT: sort of thing because you could see that they were happy and they were proud of themselves because they achieved task together, but it became too much when they were put in an environment they weren't comfortable in. Yeah. Which is sad.

59:00Oti: And then I think it's only fair we talk about Marlo.

59:07KT: He was like he was like a a robot. Like, I didn't I couldn't understand his motivations.

59:14Oti: My god. He's like he's a hardened version of Avon if there ever was one.

59:22KT: He just you just couldn't peg him. Like, even if someone, like, said that he was a bitch,

59:28Oti: they would get killed. They put my name on the street?

59:31KT: That's my name. That's how I I knew he was awake because I've never like, he was literally, like, maybe 10 words a season. And when he I don't know. It's weird. It's a triggering thing. I would love to know more about his backstory.

59:47Oti: Yeah. Because we don't really get to yeah. We don't really get to know the story behind Marlo.

59:53KT: Because there was one where someone was calling him gay, and he got really angry at it. But then even just people call him incompetent or he doesn't have control of the streets, he got really angry at that. Oh, remember the guard. He stole something from the supermarket for The lollipop. The corner shop. Yeah. And then, oh my god. That's brutal. Yeah. Just because of that. Literally, just her do his job.

60:14Oti: Yeah. I'm not stepping up to you, mate. I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to do my job But Marlo Marlo Marlo's just so fucked up and so out of I don't even know what the fuck it is. I don't feel like he was likable to me. He was not likable. Who would who the fuck would watch the y and y? Wasn't even respectable.

60:33KT: Like, it's just I couldn't place where he would be at any moment. Like, it was just a bit too but I did respect Chris even though he was a bit, you know, he was a bit DMX all the time.

60:46Oti: But he was. He he had he he's the one that was skill. And reason.

60:51KT: Like And reason.

60:53Oti: If he was just Marlo and Snoop, she

60:58KT: Actually, yeah, that would be a bad combination. That would be the worst thing ever. The only time Chris kind of lost, like, his rationale was with Michael. Yeah. Because that's he the really resonated with what Michael was going through.

61:10Oti: Yeah. Yeah. He really did take Michael under his wing and because I think they shared this similar kind of Yeah. Abuse. Abuse, which is sad. Yeah. But he took Michael under his wing. He understood exactly what needed to be done, and he beat Michael's abusive father to a pulp. And it was personal. It got to the point where they couldn't. Snoop was like, damn. We couldn't even get inside.

61:35Oti: So they just left him there. Right? Yeah. And which was his downfall. Yeah. But wow. Yeah. I could just imagine Marlo and Snoop alone and fucking hell. Everyone would have been dead. Everyone. Everyone.

61:47KT: They all would have just been gone. Yeah. Can we please talk about Bodie?

61:54Oti: Oh, Bodie. Bodie. Bodie.

61:56KT: He I would say if we're not talking about, like, the core cast, I would say he he was my favorite character on The Wire because we see him starting off as a little corner boy. Right? But he had that mentality. Yep. He always he always, like, looked down on and didn't respect D'Angelo because he knew no. He knew D'Angelo wasn't built for the streets. Nah. Right? Even when they caught Bubbles' friend because they were doing the fake paper notes. You

62:30KT: know, Bodie's like, can we can we beat him up? Can we beat him up? And D'Angelo just walks away, probably thinking he's strong, but he looks like a bitch. He's walking away. And then Bodie just, like, bashes. Like, he just gets in, and then all of the boys, like, start bashing me. And then you start to see how strongly Bodie is like, his presence in the streets. You know, even when he goes to the juvenile the juvie center, he just walks out the door. Like, Herc and Carver are, like, practicing

63:00KT: how they're gonna intimidate him, but he's already gone. Right? So much like, he was a solid soldier. I don't know if he had any ambitions to become the king, but he was an ambitious soldier, and he was solid. You couldn't rely on him, and he knew what he was doing.

63:16Oti: Yeah. He did. And the thing is he had a good head on him. Yeah. Like, he he was clever as he knew his rights at least when they all got So rounded

63:28KT: good.

63:29Oti: I just like entrapment while Poot and the rest all got served like two years. Well, Poot's still itching, so he's fine. Yeah. True that.

63:42KT: But the demise of Bodie wasn't cause on his own volition. No. He was Stringer was still around at the time, and then Stringer left. And then he had no leader. He had no support network.

63:59Oti: No. Slim had gone to Prop Joe.

64:03KT: Yeah. He was out on his own. Yeah. He was taking Sims package until Marlo put the muscle on him. And he was out there alone. He didn't deserve to be done like that. Yeah. Only only because

64:16Oti: they killed Little Kevin, and he just lost it. Yeah. Because he's the one that told Little Kevin to go and fess up to Marlo. Yeah. It's better he goes straight up and say, hey. I got caught by the police, but I didn't say anything. We're good. Right?

64:30KT: And it was just because they saw. I think it was Monk. Monk saw Bodie with McNulty. Yeah. And that was enough. He didn't even because even Bodie said, I'm not gonna sell you shit. Yeah. But even before that, Bodie had had enough of the street.

64:44Oti: Oh, yes. Because fuck that shit. You know, he's been under Avon Stringer, Marlo. And Marlo just crossed the line where he was like, you don't just kill people to kill people. Yeah. And then when he, like, smashed the cop car Yeah. As well. And McNulty had his back because, you know, they've been back and forth with Bodie since season one. Yeah. Which was quite nice to see. It was such a nice moment, wasn't it? And

65:10KT: how McNulty

65:11Oti: got upset when he found out that Bodie died. Yeah. I think that's one of the moments where we start to see McNulty wanting to come back.

65:18KT: Yeah. There were so many things like, is he gonna come back? Is he gonna come back? And Bodie is what brought him back. Let's talk about Omar. Omar, coming, yo. If I could whistle, I would whistle Farmer in the Dell.

65:32Oti: Oh. Oh, no. Just Oh,

65:35KT: again, it's our Friday night. I didn't think we're going to keep bringing it up. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. If anyone is creating a list of the top 10 TV show characters and Omar is not on the list, then I rebuke you in the name of For Your Reference. Mhmm.

65:55Oti: Least he lives by a code. Know?

65:57KT: He's got his code. You know what? Bunk was the first one to say it in The Wire. Mhmm. Even though it's attributed to Omar. But anyway, continue. Yeah. But he's got his code. He robs drug dealers. But never innocent bystanders.

66:10Oti: Yep. And that's his thing. To the point where McNulty and Kima even question themselves if they're police because they're helping Omar. Like, they're letting him dodge shit. They're letting him dodge a lot of things, and they're like, man, are we even police anymore? And and that's exactly it. Because for the most part, Omar just minded his own business. Yeah. He did. He stayed to himself, and he just robbed people. Yeah. And sometimes people just gave things to him. He didn't necessarily rob them.

66:39KT: Exactly. And I have I have never and will never get over the way Omar died. Kadoof?

66:49Oti: I What's his name? Kah Not Kadoof, is it?

66:53KT: Kenard.

66:54Oti: Kenard, is it?

66:56KT: Because I in my heart, I knew for this story that Omar needed to die. I knew that. Even if

66:56Oti: No. No. You don't live that life thinking that Omar's gonna

66:56KT: Yes. I know. I know. So so at least I can be that rational. Right? But for him, I know people will be like, oh, it's the streets. You can die whenever. Nah, man. Give my king his ending.

67:21Oti: But the thing is, I think with Omar is not just anyone would catch him unawares, unless it's somebody he really did expect.

67:29KT: Guess.

67:30Oti: You know, like a kid, you'd be like, he puts his guard down. But if he sees a a grown ass man, his spidey senses are all up in the air.

67:30KT: Like, what you're saying makes sense, but my heart still hurts.

67:30Oti: No. But then the first time I watched it, I thought it was kind of random. But once we rewatched it a bit, we started saying Kadoof.

67:53KT: Did you have like a off brand did you have an off brand Scooby Doo in Kenya? Want some snacks?

68:06Oti: But yeah. Well, like, when Omar carving and the kids were running away, you saw him just sitting there trying to kill a cat or trying to put a cat on fire on fire. And he also

68:18KT: took advantage of punk ass Namond as well.

68:22Oti: You could I I say say there's

68:25KT: he's a twisted he's a twisted going to grow up to be like Avon.

68:29Oti: No. Even if I I think more like a Marlo than Avon. Yeah. Yeah. He's just all messed up. Maybe a bit of both. Maybe even a serial killer. Oh, fucking buns are cut. Yeah. Jesus Christ. That's some messed up shit. That's some messed up shit.

68:48KT: But, yeah, Omar is pure quality, and I'm glad I could continue to experience him in Community.

68:52Oti: Oh, yeah.

68:54KT: Because Community is the Mecca of all references. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. You're most welcome. But, yeah, Omar, just everything. And Butchie as well. He had to come back for Butchie, didn't he? He had to. No. He yeah. Of course. He had to. And that was the only thing that would have brought him back. Yeah.

69:14Oti: Fucking hell. We didn't even talk about Prop Joe. Prop Joe. His downfall was his fucking blinded love for Cheese. But he had to. Cheese is family. Fuck family sometimes, man. If your family is Cheese Yeah. You need to rethink

69:14KT: You you could see the end was nigh

69:31KT: for Joe because he kept trying to just keep himself alive. By by keeping himself alive, he was giving the other ends like Omar and Marlo the upper hand. So it it was going to happen.

69:40Oti: But for someone who's so smart like Prop Joe, he made such a stupid decision giving Marlo the key, telling him everything, how everything works, how everything operates. That was such a stupid thing.

69:52KT: Hang on a second. Marlo is that sort of person that would kill you for much less. So he he had to. To keep himself alive for tomorrow, he had to.

70:06Oti: He couldn't just kill Prop Joe out of nowhere unless all the other inside people would be, like, on him. Surely.

70:14KT: He needed intel from Joe. He got it, and he killed Joe. And Joe had to give that intel so he didn't die earlier. At least that's the way I saw it anyway.

70:23Oti: Well, I guess. It was just he could have kept some things to himself, not give him everything. Yeah. I wanna talk about Carcetti.

70:31KT: Who doesn't love a little fingery, Aidan Gillen, Thomas Carcetti?

70:31Oti: Carcetti is shit. Pretty motherfucker.

70:31KT: What? What happened? What happened? It sounded like the end of Oti.

70:52Oti: You know what Carcetti reminds me of? What? Kenyan fucking politicians before they get to power. They would be there Promise. Oh, we will do ABC. We will make every we will make Kenya better. Free education. We will do all these things. But once they get to power, they do shit fucking all because the system is the system is the sis same thing with Carcetti. No sooner had he become mayor, he was already thinking about that governor seat. As soon as he got elected, he didn't even care about his mayoral duties.

71:23Oti: It was like, okay. So let's let's see how we can get to that governor seat. You know? Man, Carcetti ain't shit. He just all talk, and he is apparently all seeming like a good guy. Oh, let's not cook the stats, but what? Stats are being cooked, mate. With some rookie. Oh, and then you're telling me Carcetti is your favorite character? Yeah. Piss right off. For for If you've ever seen an African politician, Carcetti is it. Visually? Visually.

71:55Oti: Embodies everything about a Kenyan about an African politician.

71:55KT: You were so angry. You didn't realize that. Hi, guys. If you're still tuning in, I am speechless because usually I'm the one going off on a rampage. So I really don't I feel like I need to regulate us now, and I need to, like, I need to bring us back to normal. Yes. He was a terrible person. He he was ambitious beyond his city, and he didn't necessarily do anything to help beyond what he needed to do. I agree. But I give characters that allowance.

72:38KT: It's only it's only when characters pretend to be things that they're not, that's when it starts to bother him.

72:38Oti: No. He pretended to be something he's not.

72:46Oti: Pretended to be someone who cares. He doesn't care for shit.

72:50KT: If I can recall a sensual Kenyan man, system, system, system.

72:59Oti: Why do I sound so sexy? Exactly. Sensual.

73:03KT: No. But that's just it. Right? You're saying system system system because he did. And if possible, he would have done a lot more. However, even the other the old mayor was saying how he eats a bowl of shit every day. Day in, day out, he's eating a bowl of shit. Even Clarence Royce, by the end of it, when he knew he was he was never going to win, he was happy to hand it over to Carcetti.

73:27KT: Right? And he's like, good luck. Like like, when you're in that, like, when you're in that position of power, you kind of relinquish that amongst the staff around you and amongst the, like, politics, right, that goes on around that. So I don't necessarily fault Tommy for that.

73:46Oti: I do. You need someone who is brave enough to disrupt the system. And if you're not it, don't talk shit.

73:52KT: Well, you say that, but even when Daniels made his way all the way to police commissioner, he got knocked down.

74:01Oti: Daniels ain't shit, man. Wow. Daniels is all about following the following the chain of command. I'll follow the chain of command.

74:12KT: No. But then he started to it's like you forget all because he actually took a stand and he was like, I'm not cooking the books. I'm doing this the right way. The mayor looked in my eyes, shook my hand, and said, we're going to do this right.

74:23KT: Yeah. Well, you feel better?

74:23Oti: I do.

74:23KT: Okay. That's good.

74:23Oti: But it's just it's just so annoying because it just got so too real for me when it came to those characters because I've seen it my whole fucking life. Carcettis in Kenya? Carcettis in Kenya. Yeah.

74:23KT: That is that your collaboration

74:45KT: with Jay Z? Carcettis in Kenya?

74:54Oti: Yep. I just need a Kanye bit on top of that and we are good.

75:00KT: But, you know, there was so many problems. And, you know, we talked a bit about it in the bonus episode as well. You know, all of the characters that we followed along the series, they leave their shoes behind to be filled by the next generation. And it's going to continue happening. Like, it happens all around the world. Like, you just pointed out as well.

75:23Oti: Right? Mhmm.

75:24KT: Oti Half Life. That's a reference. You should watch Nairobi Half Life. It's very good. It's it's a great piece of film. But The Wire just so beautifully immersed us in a world of things that weren't so perfect, of people that weren't so perfect, and of issues that unfortunately, at least not for a long time, be able to be fixed. And this series ends with journalism.

75:59Oti: Mhmm. Right? Oh, dear lord. Yeah.

76:02KT: I don't even wanna talk about Templeton. He infuriates me. He is you think McNulty is a fucking shitbag? No. Templeton is. Because it's like, you know you've done the wrong thing, but you also get pissed off when you get pulled up for doing the wrong thing. I as a brown woman, I don't think I can ever understand that level of entitlement because he knew he was wrong.

76:28Oti: Yes. He did. I think he He knew he was wrong. And to some extent, I think he believed his own shit. Like, fucking hell. Jesus. I have never seen such an annoying character in my life. Wow.

76:43KT: I I really don't get it. I really don't get it. He was so fucking self righteous, and he had his nose up his ass the whole time sniffing off his own fumes.

76:52Oti: Yeah. How Gus survived walking with that piece of shit the whole time? That place was way too good for him. Yeah. I would've walked Sorry. No. He was too good for that place then. I would've walked I would've walked out of that job.

77:04KT: Yeah. Exactly.

77:06Oti: As soon as I took the evidence to those two

77:09KT: The Dickensian. Dickens?

77:11Oti: I would've been like, Fist right off. Man, I think, to some extent I don't know. If Deppetula was black, I don't think he stays there. Fuck sakes. I get I think he gets fired. That's some ridiculous I I do not understand that. For a newspaper to

77:32KT: no, man. Well, there's there's there's, like, corruption and there's dodgy people in all organizations. Right? And I think they kept him because they liked his his style of writing. But, unfortunately, that's not the news. And he kept up making dodgy things. And just to contrast, you also had the other reporter that was writing the story on Bubbles. He actually felt bad of printing the story without even showing Bubbles. And that just shows you the difference in morality. Even after even after showing Bubbles, was and Bubbles wasn't fully sold, he was like, you know what? I'd hold off until he's actually fully okay for me to go ahead with the story.

78:06Oti: Yeah. Man, Tomatoon would have published he would even have talked to Bubbles.

78:17KT: And and Alma Gutierrez, she was she had very good mobile oh, mobile. Oh my. I loved her mobiles. Her moral fiber as well because Gus said he didn't, you know, implicate her with the notebook. She's like, I know. I did. That was the most sweetest but also naive thing I've ever seen in a TV show. Yeah. The poor thing. I felt so bad for it. And, you know, Gus couldn't do anything about it either. Because it's like, you have people that know how to play the game, like Templeton,

78:50KT: and then you have people that are just so pure, like Alma. How about when she she woke up in the middle of the night morning To go and check whose whose story was published. Seeing. Yeah. So sad. But it was it was so nice to end the series in that because we were invested in, you know, the police, at least the characters that we liked out of the police. We had an understanding of the drug trade and the kingpins and the, you know Distro. Big hitters and the distro.

79:23KT: We had an understanding of the ports Mhmm. As well. We also had an understanding of the schools. And we really you know, we we we fit quite nicely like a glove in Baltimore within the context of The Wire. So to have that journalism point of view, it pardon pardon the terrible play on words, but it really finished the story of Baltimore through the context of The Wire. And it was gorgeous, and it was delicious. And it fucking hell, man. I don't I can't think of a show because for me, when it comes to ranking

80:02KT: things, I will never rank, like, a comedy as high as a show that's a drama. And that's just a fact of life. Come and fight me, my friends. Yeah. But, you know, like, in regards to the context of that, I don't think there are many shows that can be in the same conversation as The Wire True. For those reasons, for the writing, for the richness, for the depth, and for the acting.

80:30KT: And it's a shame that it got snubbed for any Emmys at all. It got nominated it got nominated for, like, two major ones, but it didn't win any Emmys at all. Peace, Rado. I'm serious.

80:44Oti: What won instead? Sunset fucking bitch? What the hell? Yeah. This is like Malcolm X all over again. Denzel was snubbed for some fucking bullshit.

80:58KT: You are really feeling a way to insane, mate. Like, if

81:02Oti: The cannot win anything,

81:04KT: I don't even In the hearts and minds of viewers, even around the world, you from Kenya, me from Australia, loving The Wire this much, that says it all really because, you know, you can you can read reviews and critic ratings, but that doesn't really capture how everyone feels about it. True.

81:26Oti: Fuck the critics.

81:28KT: No. We love the critics, but I'm just saying it's not no. But it's like critics also have their own opinion. So so we have our opinion. It's just theirs are amplified. Right? Hell, they have biased opinions made. No. But it's it's not to say just because things don't win an Oscar, it doesn't mean that they're not of value. Although, Mahershala, thank you very much. I'll take another slice. Thank you.

81:53Oti: I'm just saying, if if you can if The Wire can't win shit, nothing should be winning anything.

81:59KT: There you go. Breaking Bad. Oh. Oh, Jesus Christ. If you want us to cover Breaking Bad, let us know.

81:59Oti: Cover Breaking Bad.

81:59KT: Otherwise, there is Late to The Show that is covering Breaking Bad, our friends, so you should check them out. But before we finish off in For Your Reference, I just wanna mention Norman. I really loved him, and I loved how he also found humor in all of the misfortunes of Tommy Carcetti. Mhmm. And

82:32KT: when they were trying to figure out what to do about the homeless killings not being killings and Norman wouldn't stop laughing. Yeah. And I just I just love the dynamic between Tommy and Norman. And I do believe in my heart of hearts that Mahershala Ali is the offspring because he is honey granddaddy. I call Mahershala honey daddy, and Norman is honey granddaddy. K. We're not gonna top that.

83:02Oti: I'm not even gonna try.

83:03KT: I can top you. Top boy. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

83:16Oti: So I would if you like cop shows, you've gotta watch The Shield. Vic Mackey is amazeballs.

83:25KT: It is 2019.

83:26Oti: Right? Hi.

83:30KT: Who still says amazeballs?

83:32Oti: I don't know. Alright. Good on you. Trying to keep up with the kids. Alright. Good on you. Anyway, so it's played by Michael Michael Chiklis. Mhmm. If I remember that correctly. And it's just a world put show. If you wanna see a rogue McNulty do shit that you wouldn't believe, you know, that's the show for you. Nice.

83:59KT: And for mine, I've actually got two references. So the first one is I watched Deadwood, and we coined Daddywood based on the Deadwood episode that we did. If we wanna talk about drunken, lovable, sexual beasts of protagonists, then obviously, Deadwood and The Wire go hand in hand. And if you just wanna see something that has cohesive, fulfilling, wholly realized narratives with exemplary acting, then you definitely need to check out Deadwood. And the second that I would recommend is Oz. A lot of people regard

84:33KT: that's the front of the theme song. A lot of people regard Oz as, like, the bigger brother of The Wire, and we are definitely going to cover it one of these days. Oh, yeah. You know what else we're going to cover? What? Our socials. On Twitter and Instagram, we are ForYourRefPod.

84:51Oti: If you wanna write us an email, you can do that at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

84:57KT: I'm feeling great. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. I think we did this a little bit of justice. You deserve all of The Wire that you can get. So you are most welcome, and we're all most welcome. Have a great time, guys, and we'll see you next week. See you. Fucking rat fuckers.