Concrete Cowboy – Turn the Stables

Full transcript of Concrete Cowboy – Turn the Stables.

0:01KT: Yeehaw, friends and lovers. As much as we love Pamela Anderson and all of her paninis, sometimes it means that we are behind on our schedule, but we guarantee it will be such as satiating and much English. Let's get on with the show. Howdy howdy friends and hot diggity dog lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:01Oti: And Oti.

0:01KT: Greet the horse house with cheese and stock up on urine guns. We are fighting gentrification and forgotten histories this week with Concrete Cowboy.

1:00KT: Oh, wow. Get hop aboard, Oti. Mhmm. Let's ride. Ride, ride, ride. Oh my. I think you're playing the wrong playlist, Oti. Do the baby making one without the babies. Oh, okay. Well, I guess we know exactly where this episode is going in all of our splooshy places, friends and lovers. Let's start off with the stats, which is what we do around here. We have director Ricky Staub, who's also credited as a writer, as well as Dan Walser. In regards to the stars, we have Idris Elba, Lorraine Toussaint and Caleb McLaughlin.

1:39KT: This

1:40KT: film was based on a book called Ghetto Cowboy by Greg Neri. And I cannot wait to talk about first impressions and generally talking about the film because there are many moments where we have covered films that were based on books like Jojo Rabbit, The White Tiger most recently, but there's also instances where we have read the book as well. But this is the former. But I definitely wanna talk about whether reading the book or not reading the book in this instance has changed anything at all.

2:15KT: This film was kind of fallen to the altar of Pamela Anderson's Paninis because it was released in the Toronto International Film Festival in September 2020. And it was made available pretty much everywhere on Netflix on the 04/02/2021.

2:33KT: All right Oti, well, let's just dig on down. Did I make a phrase? You did. Did I make a cowboy? Don't worry about my Krieger Laboratories. Archer reference. Let's get into it, Oti. How did you generally feel about this film? Did you I don't know. Did you enjoy it? And let's let's just go from there, my love.

2:35Oti: I had high hopes. I had high hopes when I started watching the movie.

2:35KT: Okay. And We did watch the trailer though, if you remember.

2:35Oti: I can't remember trailers anymore. So

3:09Oti: I go into these movies cold. But I thought it started off strongly. Yep. And by the end of it, I was, like, exhausted, which doesn't pan out well for the movie, does it?

3:09KT: Interestingly enough, according to my very learned

3:25KT: extent of IMDb, it's rated R. Why? I don't know. There wasn't a lot of gore and there wasn't a lot of sex. Well, at least I don't think so. There's none. Right? Yeah. I don't know why it was rated R then. Weird.

3:25Oti: But I just thought by the last act, I was like, this just feels dragged out a bit too much.

3:46Oti: But there were really strong things about it. The the story they're trying to tell, it could fit you could tell even that a lot of the cast members were the actual people, and I called it out as soon as we started. I was like, oh, man. I reckon most of these guys are from the are from Fletcher Street. Yeah.

4:05KT: Like but even the sense that you said it was trying to, I think that there was a lot of trying to. I think there was a lot of well intentioned,

4:14KT: but you continue my love.

4:14Oti: Overall, I enjoyed the performance of Austrian the Kids Things, Caleb. When it started, I thought Caleb did a really, really good job portraying Cole. Okay. I thought there was a lot of nuances, there was a lot of character depth to him. And as the movie progressed, it just didn't pan out that way. And that added to my frustration because I thought he was doing quite well until I learned that this kid is just fucking annoying. Yeah.

4:42Oti: That it just changed my whole picture of it. But I thought it's good that it gave him such a role to sort of expand his acting, you know, to stretch his acting asshole.

4:54KT: Well, let's let let let me, Avatar Tentacle, latch myself onto your first impressions.

5:00KT: So you you feel like Caleb has the chops?

5:00Oti: I felt like he portrayed a lot of the chops when I misunderstood or at least I got his character wrong and I I portrayed or at least I thought he he was meant to be more or he held more. He had deeper meaning. He had trouble. He had sorrows. He had a troubled childhood. He had something.

5:22Oti: Something that was causing all the angst. Something that was he was trying to rebel against. Something that was deep that deeper than we could sort of scratch his face in the first few minutes of the movie. And as the movie progressed and I realized a lot of those things that I was trying to portray on his performance was just was really wasn't there. And by the end of it, he just came off as a shouty kid who didn't really understand anything around him. And in situations

5:51Oti: where, you know, he'd get angry over anything and everything that just didn't make sense, he'd find someone to just fucking blame. And I get he's probably young and he doesn't know what to do with his fucking feelings. But I expected more.

6:04KT: Yeah. And it's interesting because there's the actor, the thespian that, you know, is able to transform on screen, and then there's also the character. I had qualms with both. Also looking at the fact that Caleb is 20 years old, I do feel like

6:04Oti: Wait, what?

6:04KT: Yeah. If my Oti daddy Abacus works, he was born in 2001, so he is 20 years old. So I would expect more acting chops from him. And because I am very learned, I don't really watch Stranger Things like that. So my introduction to his acting was The New Edition Story.

6:43KT: But in saying that, I do like my maybe not A grade music biopics. Like The Temptations is one of my favorite sort of comfort films. But we'll talk about Cole's character generally. Sometimes it's nice just to dive into, especially if it's the first time we featured an actor in our podcast to talk about it, but he didn't really blow me away at all. When you're a lot younger and your palette for film isn't so sophisticated, when you start to see tears, you think that is the mark of a thespian.

7:19KT: And then after time, you start to realize it's it's it's also the writing and how that comes to play. Because as much as we love Lupita and as much as in some cases, maybe we love Us, that that performance was it superseded the film. You see what I'm saying? So you can you can evoke a lot of emotion, but it not necessarily translate in the carrying of the vehicle of a film. Mhmm. So, yeah, I'm not really checking for Caleb, I must say.

7:48Oti: Oh, weird. But, you know, I I thought I thought he did well though. I think he did well at the start.

7:48KT: You know who always does well? Lorraine Toussaint. I just wanna give some flowers there. Yeah. Tried and true. Always going to come in, make a great performance, steal every single scene. She does. She plays good and bad characters quite well. Oh, absolutely. And aren't those the best types? And then you also don't know, right? Like, you don't know

8:17KT: where the character's going to go from there. If you listen to our Passion of the Christ episode, I did reference Terrence Howard. How did I do it? You ask. Well, you better go and listen. But yeah, with Lorraine, you don't know which way her character's gonna go as opposed to Terrence Howard or maybe even Tyrese and Baby Boy.

8:37Oti: Leave Jody alone, mate.

8:41KT: I like his beat it up dance. That is most welcome. Speaking of most welcome, let's talk about Idris Elba. I think the last time he's featured on this podcast was The Wire. Yeah.

8:51Oti: He's done quite a lot It's since

8:54KT: not that he hasn't done things that we haven't watched him in, but it's nice to see potentially, you know, something with substance

9:02Oti: that he's in. Yeah. A lot of the times we see a trailer featuring Idris Elba, and you're like, I really don't wanna ruin my vision of him like this. Yeah. Yeah.

9:13KT: Because there are some actors, actresses, non binary thespians that they just ooze quality.

9:21Oti: He's probably got Patrick Stewart's agent as well. So if you're nasty Get him in every fucking thing out there. Oh, you're doing a TV, you're doing a movie, it's ridiculous. Oh, why not? Why set up? I just think he's such a good actor that I want him to do. He's a great actor. He's a brilliant actor. Yeah. I want him And he's tarnishing his own name. He's like striking urethras in himself. And I get it, you know, that he's he's

9:48Oti: allowed to do things that make him happy and whatnot, but man, all that. You don't wanna get like Al Pacino Pacino level

9:58Oti: or like De Niro with the Fockers.

9:58KT: Mate, the Fockers is good. I don't know what you're talking about. Friends and lovers, this is why we have two hosts so you can choose your player. You know, yeah. But it's nice to see it just having some more substantive sort of roles. But I must say,

10:21KT: you know, even just talking about the trailer before we watched the film, Jharrel Jerome is what got me excited. Because even though we see Idris, we're like, okay, but we're not sure if this is gonna be good or not. And then as soon as we saw Jharrel Jerome instantly inject the feels into me. Yeah. It was good seeing him get a gig after, you know When They See Us. When They See Us. And it's he's just such a fucking brilliant actor as well. Yeah. I think just rounding off my first impressions for this film,

10:49KT: you know, a lot of the time I talk about the importance, at least for me, to emotionally latch on to the protagonists who are my favorite protagonists, not the Nolan protagonists, friends and lovers. But, yeah, I just I didn't care for Cole as a character. The fact that there is a subculture of black cowboys in Philadelphia is so interesting to me. And the fact that I learned that through this movie, I'm adding Ghetto Cowboy to my reading list. But specifically in regards to the storytelling style,

11:26KT: I didn't care for it. I wanted to learn more about these cowboys, but I feel like the way in which they told the story wasn't interesting to me. And even, you know, when you read books specifically, it is quite common to go back and forth between multiple characters. Right? And that's just a normal way of storytelling in books and also in films as well. But sometimes it becomes a Cloud Atlas thing, even though Oti might fight me for his Halle Berrys.

11:54KT: But I don't know. I I feel like it could have been done a lot better because I wanted to learn more about the cowboys. I wanted to learn more about Leroy. I wanted to learn more about Smush and, you know, even Esha, but I didn't care about Cole's character. I just felt like I was constantly trying to push Cole away so I could, like, resonate with everyone else behind him. Interesting you say that.

12:17Oti: I thought I I was bought into the Cole story. I just felt that the storytelling let let him down because I thought they could really derive a lot more feels and emotions. A lot of things felt just put there just because. Even the love story, was like, why are they kissing? Like, where did that come from? Well, even then, it happened further in the film when you would already

12:38Oti: accept the fact that there isn't gonna be a love story. And then out of nowhere, it happened. Like the first time when Smush got hijacked, I was like, oh, cool. Now this is a conflict we've been waiting for. This is a turning point where, hopefully, we'll get to see Cole turn in from his ways. Something's gonna happen. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, cool. The movie's about to end because he's going to change his ways and whatever whatever. And then we're like, there's still, like, fifty minutes left. One four. One four.

13:04KT: Yeah. If you're going to decide to make a two hour film for something that isn't an epic, then there needs to be a reason for that. Like, Cole was fucking Pingu, man. Every time he had a potential learning moment, he never learned anything. What's learning? Exactly. Especially when you're Pingu. I do have a note here and feel free to make sense of this if you like. Caleb went to the Jaden Smith School of Yell Acting. Woah.

13:33Oti: Take a knee, cadet. Oh, me. You'll love off to us, don't we?

13:39KT: Well, we haven't covered it, so does that answer it? Don't we? Oh, wow. It was just a lot of yelling and I get that, well, at least from what I was reading or the description in the book, was 12 years old. Like I get with teenagers, it is a lot of angst and a lot of hormones and a lot of shouting, but I don't think enough groundwork was done specifically in regards to Cole's character for me to give him any sort of leniencies. Right?

14:11KT: Because we he might've just been a kid that wanted to fuck shit up, you know? It might not be the fact that he was troubled, that his mom was always working and he was alone by himself. Like that's all stuff that you need to infer or you need to project onto Cole's character. That wasn't presented to us. You know, even really early in the film, we have the moment where Well, it's really at the start of the film where, you know, the school is calling and saying, unfortunately,

14:39KT: we don't have the resources to be able to care for your son, come and pick him up. We're talking expulsion.

14:45Oti: Yeah, like the kids who are just fucked up.

14:45KT: Thank you, Doctor Oti.

14:45Oti: No, no reason. They don't need a story. Don't need a story. I used to have this friend, you know, in the neighborhood, grew up together,

15:01Oti: and we sort of drifted ways. He just ran with the bad crowd. Yeah. He had fucking loving parents and all, really good parents. It's got nothing to do. Like, just because someone's fucked up does not mean that their parents are supposed to be like, you've got a deadbeat dad who went to prison and, you know, all the anger you're there, you're just coming to say, oh, why you hate me, man? Yeah. It doesn't have to be that level. You know, sometimes kids are just fucked up. And they're dicks. And dicks, you know, and happens all the time. And I

15:32KT: do like the way that the film started because that's kind of where, you know, the cookie crumbled, if you will. Because really Cole should have just shut his mouth, but I guess he's not smart enough to know that. Nothing that he would have said in that moment would have made that moment better. And what he said was even worse. It was making more of a problem because he wasn't taking any sort of accountability. He was saying, oh, it wasn't my fault, all of this nonsense.

16:01KT: Right? The fact that you even said something and none of it was helpful. And then it's revealed to us that this isn't the first time it's happened. And she's at her wit's end. She can't keep doing this, finding new schools, explaining to officers that he's a good kid and he just messed up. And she just had enough, right? She just had enough. And you know, that moment solidified to me for the mother. Like I felt completely for the mother. And when she got to

16:33KT: Harp's, you know, house and he wasn't there, it got to a point where she locked herself in the car and you could see that she had a conflict, you know, it was hard enough for her to accept that there's nothing more that she could do for her son at this point in his life because she had already done so much for him,

16:52KT: but she had to stay strong. And you could say that she was struggling in that scene because Cole was like hitting on the window saying, mom, what are you doing? What are you doing? I was wholly, you know, resonating with the mother,

17:06KT: but still not giving a fuck about Cole.

17:06Oti: Fair enough. Like, at that stage, you know, when the mom has gone through all that, she has to leave walk early to try and convince both teachers and police that the kid is going to change when she knows very well that the kid doesn't know anything, you know. And I was like with the mom as well, like, just palm him off. You do not you do need to deal with this stress alone when you know there's a dad out there living in Philly somewhere being a cowboy.

17:35KT: Yeah. I get it. Like, I can see it. But, like, I don't think enough if they wanted us to care because it seemed like this story was about Cole, I think it would have done well to have a couple of scenes of us, you know, understanding who Cole is as a character. You know, it's not always necessary to see actions of a character, but most of the time, actions reflect the motivations of a character.

18:02KT: What makes them feel what they feel?

18:02Oti: True. True. You know, to me, they chose the wrong protagonist to center the story around. Oh, absolutely. And I reckon a better story would have been told about the Fletcher Street riders. Oh, absolutely. About the issues that they're trying to raise and the importance of that community.

18:20Oti: Because with Cole, we just get a glimpse of it because we're weighed down by his whatever it is that's pulling him down because at the end of it, we still don't fucking know. You know? And there's this sort of literal metaphor about breaking him like a like Yeah. A

18:36Oti: Breaking his will like a horse. And No. It's all well and good, but to the point where we want to delve into because this is such an interesting story. There's like so many new things we learned from this Yeah. That I felt like, oh, that could have been a great movie. Wait a minute. That's what I'm watching, sort of. A documentary would have been more interesting,

18:57KT: I think. But even if you go from what you're saying as, you know, just focus on Fletcher Street as a part of the film. I definitely agree because if the point was to introduce us to this subculture we weren't aware of, it could have been done without the need of a whiny teenager and his journey, right? Because there's so many different layers to this. We start off, you know, we can go in more detail, but we start off with Harp who, you know, ended up going to prison, had a very similar

19:28KT: sort of experience to Smush, which is kind of, you know, exposition to us, not really experience. You also have Smush who was young, starry eyed, and we get to see more layers on him. And I definitely wanna talk in more detail about Smush. But he's closer to Cole's age range, just a bit older to have experienced a bit more than he did. We learn about Esha to a certain extent. And also with our Method Leroy man. He also has the experience as well because he was a cowboy, still considers himself a cowboy,

20:05KT: but he's moving in a way that's sustainable. So there's so many different layers that's introduced into this film in regards to the cowboy experience. It's not just cowboy in, cowboy out. Yeah. Right? You know, there's talks of gentrification. We also have Paris who talks about his own experiences where Cole asks him, why is he in the chair? In an earlier scene, we learned that his brother passed away. And then further to this scene, we learned that not only did his brother pass away, but it was fighting over territory, fighting over corners,

20:43KT: essentially. And there's that veneer of stark reality being that this corner is now fucking Starbucks. So, like, what was it all for?

20:43Oti: And I get the Cole aspect, you know,

20:56Oti: because not everything on Fletcher Street is good. Not everything is up and up. Because from Smush's perspective, who's been there Yeah. Who's lived the life as a rider Mhmm. He had to leave it because he felt abandoned by everyone else. Yeah. So there are issues tethering. It's not a perfect community. Like, you know, there's nothing perfect out there. Yeah. And Smush is pretty much the evidence of that. Yeah. Because he felt that the community let him down. He was abandoned. And he the only way that he could find

21:28Oti: a perfect place for him was to get money quickly so he can buy a ranch somewhere. You know? Even he had gotten into the sort of mindset or he had gotten the concept that we're renting these things. Yeah. We don't own shit. They're five blocks away. They've turned, you know, it's been gentrified already. They're coming towards us. Yeah. It's just a matter of time. He knew that. He got that memo. It's like we will still be who we are even if we're not where we were. Yeah. So when when the city when the when the city comes and try and take the horses, guys are like, oh, we didn't see give us a warning. How can he just come? But, mate Yeah. Leroy himself came and told you guys, you need to do better. You need to do better. The place stinks.

22:11Oti: Like, there's a lot of issues, you know?

22:11KT: Well, and also,

22:15KT: you know, watching the film and seeing the events unfold, it wasn't fair that it happened, but unfucking fortunately, many systems exist to take advantage of and to profit off. And because it is in a populated city, they were going to take over eventually. Drive the rents up, you know, bring animal control in, whatever it's going to be. They were going to find a way to move them out because they can get five, ten, 20 times the return when they gentrify it. Yep.

22:49Oti: Yep. Makes perfect sense. And, you know, I think that Smush angle was really good. It brought a lot of feeling to this because we saw a kid who had dreams, had hopes, had thought about all these things through, you know, unlike Cole who's so objective or at least his view of the world was so naive at the moment, you know? Absolutely naive.

23:12KT: And in many one of his many fits, you know, he was getting angry at Harp. I think it was the moment where he was helping Paris ride that horse for the first time probably since his accident. Right? And Cole got so upset about it. And the fact that it took us a while to even understand why he would be upset over something like that. There was a line in there that just, oh, it just made me want to squeeze something. He was like, I've always been taking care of me. When, little boy, when?

23:48KT: His mom's been paying looking after, cleaning up all of his messes, getting him to new schools, little boy.

23:57Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Some moments were like, you didn't build this enough for us to be emotional at this point. No. You know, it's not the they're trying to go for the Will Smith. Won't you love me, man? But nah.

24:10Oti: Nah. Nah. It don't I let you have that earlier. I didn't I didn't reference it. It did not it did not have it did not have the same gravitas that because we don't care. He's a bratty kid. Exactly. Exactly. Because when he said that, I was like, I was like in shock wondering what the fuck. Yeah. Oh, so that's where you're going with this. Oh,

24:30KT: Cool. Like, I think that was after the two, three times he threatened to leave Harp's home, and then he just came back anyway. So it's like, your words mean nothing,

24:40KT: little Cole.

24:40Oti: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the fact that when you mentioned that he was supposed to be 12, I think that makes a lot of sense now. I'm not sure that he mentioned it in the movie. Maybe I missed it. Maybe with that in my mind, maybe I would have probably perceived his character in a bit more light after the fact because I don't think so. Yeah. Because I was watching it and I'm thinking this kid is about 16,

25:01Oti: 17. Like, I'm a fucking asshole, but I was a very obedient kid. So I don't I don't relate to that. I don't know how to caveat this without sounding like a dick. But any African kid, you know, there's this standard of behavior that you expect. By default. By default. Like out of the womb. Out of the womb, you behave a fucking certain way. You know? Unless, you know and in my generation, you know? So those this level. And you fall away from that, and there's fucking repercussions. Even communal fucking repercussions. So to me, saying,

25:37Oti: granted, it's different cultures and all, it's still hard to sort of perceive the sort of behavior that we see in Cole. I'm like, fuck real big.

25:48KT: And I think beatings were like communal. So he's just like, it's like big brother, but he's gonna catch these hands. Yeah. Yeah. I like yeah. I I don't know. Maybe for you, it would make a difference knowing that Cole, maybe not in this movie, but in the book, was aged 12. But again, I still don't know enough. Like, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, for example, oh, imagine if Taika Waititi directed this film. But like, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, Ricky Baker, we learnt enough through flashbacks and through dialogue

26:24KT: to know that he went through some shit. Yeah. So we can have that emotional payoff of, you know, everything every situation that he's been put through, we know exactly how that affects him and how he's gonna respond.

26:36KT: Yeah. With Cole, nothing. But things were happening around him. Right? So he wasn't he I would say he's the same kid from the start of the film than he was at the end. I don't think there was any development with his character.

26:36Oti: I wouldn't agree with that.

26:36KT: Why? Because of the triumphant standing on the horse at the end?

26:36Oti: Yes.

26:36KT: Why? You're there for Smush's funeral and you're making it all about you, you dickhead.

27:03Oti: No. The he's he's developed a bit because he's learned to sort of put his anger in check

27:11KT: to some degree. Wait until he comes across another problem, and then he'll just relapse.

27:16Oti: No. Like, when they're drawn to at the last scene, they rode into this building being torn down, and they're all just looking at it. And then he shrieks something out. We're gonna do something, man. Wait. Like, I was like, fucking hell, kid. Just fucking shut up. Shut up for a second. Jesus.

27:36KT: Have you been this entire movie? Man, I don't think we gave Bella from Twilight enough credit. Like,

27:42KT: do you believe your dad to be Superman?

27:45KT: What do you think? What are the bounds of what your dad cannot and can and cannot do? But it's that immaturity we're talking about because

27:45Oti: Well, you see, if that was if I had in my mind that he was 12, then I'll be like, oh, yeah. Cool. But I was thinking this is this kid and he's 16, 17 years old. I'm thinking, Jesus fucking grasps. What's wrong with you? When we're getting like that song amusing at the start, just put there, Cole, 12 years old. Let it stick there for about a minute so it's clear to us as an audience, this kid is young because I missed that. And thinking that he's some sort of 16, 17 year old, I was like, man,

28:22Oti: man.

28:23KT: And this goes back to what you were saying in a previous podcast episode that you would prefer child actors to be played by 40 year olds so you can hold them accountable.

28:36KT: If they don't look like they could have been in Grease, Oti doesn't want them.

28:36Oti: Yeah. That's why Grease works because you can criticize the hell out of Grease because they're not fucking kids.

28:46KT: Even their grandchildren have crow's feet. Yeah. Wanna talk a little bit about the, I guess, the commentary in the film and I guess laying contextual sort of groundwork in the film because there are a lot of parallels between, you know, black America and white America and also, you know, the changing of an age, you know, going from like from horses to cars. Right? And it's one of the many I would say the best sort of scenes were around the campfires.

29:25KT: And this is a very such scene when they're talking about, you know, horses were used for everything with a cart and carriage for transport. You know, it was pretty much used in everyday sort of life until like the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties, where cars were around and then there was no use for horses anymore. So there's a lot of layered sort of commentary throughout the film. I also noticed I've never seen more literal metaphors than in this film. Like Cole and his boo. Like, it was very clear that the frustrations

30:07KT: and the acting up in behavior, that boo hold.

30:16Oti: Wow. Okay, Aswem. Calm down. Oh, wow.

30:24KT: Thank you every other contestant on 90 Day Fiance. Wow. But, you know, had more character development than Cole, I'll say it. But there was a lot of literal sort of metaphor. But I did appreciate the commentary that they had, you know, of of, you know, current mainstream America using and discarding whatever they see fit. I think detaching yourself

30:50Oti: at the end of this movie and just thinking from an enjoyment perspective, I've got none. But from a knowledge perspective, I think that's where I got to see a lot of this and I enjoy it. And that's what really got me. You know? During the last act, was completely checked out from what they're trying to do because I felt like the movie literally did everything that they wanted to do character wise, and they're just prolonging something that didn't make sense to me. Yeah. You know, having the mom come back and having Harp and Cole

31:25Oti: all hug at the end is all sweet and good. But before that, then you have all this dead space where it's just back and forth and that didn't really do anything for the movie or any character per se. Yeah.

31:25KT: Well, think about it. The the big emotional moments weren't even about Cole. Like when you have Paris being able to ride that horse again,

31:47KT: like as inspiring as his story is, and it was nice to see him in the post interviews during the credits, they they kind of dispensed that way too early in the film, especially because we were following Cole, but we're hearing the emotion about Paris, which is very sad. It was a very sad story. And I think if they had chosen to lay it out better, have the pacing a bit better, when he was able to ride that horse, it would have been way more triumphant

32:17KT: and it would have hit that emotional payoff that we were hoping for. But at the same time, again, it wasn't about Cole. And then let's talk about Smush for a little bit. He meets his demise in a very sad way, but you, like you said, you called it, he was going to die.

32:17Oti: Yep. I said it the minute I saw him and I saw his character, especially

32:39Oti: when he looked out the window and I saw like some sketchy guy standing outside of a store and he got out of the car and I knew it was just drugs related. I knew there was there was only one way this story was gonna end, and I told you, he's gonna die. He is gonna die so that Cole can grow up.

32:56Oti: But did he? He did it. He got we gotta do something, man. The guy gets kidnapped, almost kidnapped, gets beaten, a gun is put on his face, and it still goes back to their life. Yeah. You know? And I think this is where the age thing then plays a big part of it because if he's fucking 12 and I knew that, then I'm like, cool. He doesn't know any better. But in my played by Tracy Morgan, you would be able to hold him accountable. Playing like Tracy Morgan's kid in Daddy Rock.

33:25KT: But don't you love how Tracy Morgan was supposed to play Eddie Murphy's son in Coming 2 America? Yeah. That's fucked up. Unless that was supposed to add to the comedy. Unless they're not like the same age. Don't play this game with me, Oti. I will not get canceled over this podcast. How dare you? That

33:43Oti: was ridiculous. Tracy Morgan playing Eddie Murphy's son.

33:49KT: And that's as much as you'll get on our main podcast about Coming 2 America. But I definitely agree in regards to Smush. And I think part of the problem was he was more ambitious than he was smart. He wasn't intelligent in a lot of ways, but he was smart because he knew how to with until he got greedy, he knew how to keep things under the radar. But you know, like when you're stepping on other territory, it's going to become a problem.

34:22KT: Go and check out our Snowfall and our future Snowfall episode. There was only one way it was going to end. Oh, absolutely. And you know how you get extra emotional payoff for a character that you know is going to die? Give them a goal that they keep talking about and they never realize that goal. Yeah. Like,

34:39Oti: we knew that if it didn't happen then, and it was gonna happen when they were just waiting and, you know, on the street. Yep. And I didn't feel anything. Yeah. I didn't feel anything. A lot of the emotional payouts for me just didn't land.

34:53KT: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. Smush's character also reminded me of that older lady in Mulan, the live action Mulan. So I'm not going to spoil it, but I feel like anyone that wanted to watch live action Mulan has already watched it. But it's like an older, not necessarily predecessor, but like an older same version of the protagonist

35:17KT: that is jaded and is seen as jaded. Yeah. And is condemned for being jaded because a, they didn't. Follow the ways. Yeah. Let's let's tie in Harp a little bit. I I guess it's just a good thing that he had a a cool and meaningful reason to name Cole. Coltrane, was it? Yeah. Wow. And even after that meaningful moment, Cole learned nothing again. But Harp is interesting. We don't necessarily get to see flashbacks and there's also not necessarily anything revealed. Not to say that's a bad thing, but if we're already hemorrhaging

35:55KT: lack of emotion, then we kinda need it. Yeah. Especially if he is the father figure.

36:02Oti: Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like this movie wanted to evoke so many emotions and it didn't deliver on anything. And at the end of the day, you have all these big stars on there who Yeah. Should on paper be able to hit those points. Yep. But I think the script just either the book they they didn't adopt it properly from the book or something's off.

36:02KT: No. I I think it's just when you have an impressive cast, it does

36:31KT: heighten expectations. So I definitely agree in that particular instance, but yeah, I feel like there was a lot that we could have learned about Harp aside from the periphery that we're given even when he's present in the scene. There's kind of like an absence sort of nature about Harp. And I don't know if that's because in some cases it's told from the personality of Cole, But Harp does seem like he does his best to keep everyone going. Even near the end of the film,

37:08KT: he's doing that Spartacus sort of speech. He's like, where are you from? What is the sand on which your feet stands? And he reminds everyone that, you know, even though you're from different stables,

37:23KT: we still come together and we're still a united unit. Yeah. All those stables he mentioned don't exist anymore, but that's not about the family aspect, you know. And we're going to keep fighting. Mhmm. And then they had a caption near the end of the film saying that it's now being put up for development. Yeah. And they're still fighting off, trying to find their own land. That's yeah. That that that brings it back to reality, which makes it very, very sad. Yeah. Yeah. It does. It does. Let's go to Leroy because contrastingly,

37:57KT: it it does beg a comparison because Leroy does talk about, you you love the horses and you love this, but it's not here forever. Right? So he was trying to give them opportunities to go through the channels, unfortunately, that they had to go through in order for them to continue to exist the way that they wanted to. But again, like you were saying, they weren't paying attention or they chose not to pay attention. And there was a moment where Leroy took Cole and I I

38:30KT: did make a comment while we were watching this. Why did every character feel the need to take Cole under their wing? Like everyone had a really emotional moment, even Paris. Like, had really emotional moments with Cole, and he didn't fucking care again. But anyway, in that particular scene, Leroy takes him down to

38:52KT: like a race course, it looks like, and he talks about a guy that he grew up with who now trains horses there. So he's still doing what he loves to do, but he's doing it in a sustainable sort of way. In a way that he can get paid

39:08KT: and a way that he can hang around.

39:08Oti: How did Harp get money by the way?

39:08KT: No bloody idea. Right?

39:08Oti: Well, we don't even know he got money because there's no food in the house, was there? No, there wasn't. But surely they're paying rent. Yeah. Well, they're saying that they're feeding their horses even more or even better than they I eat

39:27KT: guess if the target audience is like teenagers, maybe they wouldn't have to think about that because most teenagers are living at home. Actually, that's a good question. Who do you think this movie was age wise targeted at?

39:44Oti: Just based on the fact that they casted Caleb, I reckon people around his age group.

39:44KT: So but not 20, like the age he looks?

39:44Oti: Yeah.

39:44KT: Okay.

39:44Oti: Because for me, if I wanted to know more, I want to know more about Fletcher Street, I'd now look up and read up on that information away from this movie because I'm not sure this movie is targeted

40:06Oti: to someone like me.

40:06KT: No. But even like Judas and the Black Messiah, like, obviously there's more reading we can do about chairman Fred Hampton, but you can still enjoy it and you can still resonate. And I would say that Judas and the Black Messiah is for more mature audiences that can understand the nuances that unfortunately FBI isn't always great. Right? So what I'm saying is when I say, who do you think this movie was for? I'm saying, who do you think will be able to get the most out of it in regards to messaging?

40:39KT: So I I would agree in your instance that it is for teenagers. But like, you can still watch a film and still wanna read more after it, but still get something out of it. But in this case, no.

40:39Oti: I guess if I was young out there, I'd probably be interested in seeing

40:53Oti: Black Cowboys and that would play a part in my development. Other than that, now that I'm all grown up, then

40:53KT: Aren't you the E. B. Farnum of Daddywood? There's a reason E. B. was was involved in a lot of those profit making schemes. Schemming off the top. Mhmm.

41:15KT: Let's go back to Leroy's quote that he says to Cole, he gives experiences specifically with himself that he knew that he wanted to be a cop. Right? And he talks about the parade, but he wants to say that you can still innovate, you can still do what you want in a way that's sustainable, be it a horse trainer at a race course or a cop without necessarily leaving. So the quote that he has is, you don't have to get out to grow up. Thoughts, feelings.

41:47Oti: Oh, a 100% agree. Like a lot of the times people think that, oh, I'll just work myself out of this and once a month then my life would be better. That's when I'll start doing other stuff. That's when I'll better myself. That's where my character development will start to kick in in a movie or also be elsewhere.

42:08Oti: But at least in this, you know, you you deal you walk with what you have. Uh-huh. You walk with what you have. You you better yourself regardless of what your situation is. And once if you do get out, then you're fully and well equipped to handle that transition. Yeah.

42:26KT: I kind of agree with you, but not really. I think it is possible to stay where you are and grow out of that sort of naivety and build on your experiences.

42:41KT: But I would say that is a very deliberate and conscious effort, especially if you stay in where you were brought up. If you move out, especially out of the area that you were brought up in, it happens by default because you fail and you fail and you fail until you need to find somewhere to live and eat, you'll figure it out.

42:41Oti: No. There's some people that still continue failing even then.

42:41KT: Yeah. We call them struggling artists. We also call them podcast hosts.

43:11Oti: Well, it's it's a thing. It has to be a conscious decision regardless. You have to wake up one morning and say that this, I've got to be better.

43:11KT: Come on Oti, you know there are people that you grew up with that are still living in that area and they're still doing the same shit.

43:11Oti: I know, I know and that's I think that's just a choice thing rather than oh, this is just an environment I've been bought in so let me remain like this.

43:11KT: Okay. Interesting.

43:11Oti: Yeah. I trust people more, it seems.

43:39KT: How has that served you, my love? Coming home with 10,000,000 different religious pamphlets?

43:46Oti: Yep.

43:49KT: Alright, friends and lovers. Before we finish off in our last segment, I did just wanna put some nods. There were some hymns in this film. There was also Nessie talking about looking for her prodigals and also the Daniel in the lion's den. Alright. While we take our ponytails and our asses back to the stable, let's finish off with For Your Reference, Oti.

43:49Oti: If you wanna see what Caleb has done,

44:17Oti: watch Stranger Things.

44:19KT: Alright. Nice. I will reference whenever cowboys are ever inserted, Deadwood. Nice. It is still to this day, one of my favorite recordings. Pretty much all of our Patreon tiers are named after references we made in that episode. Firm foundation and the golden trophy, Daddywood. Mhmm. If you would like to see what the sheriff of Daddy Wood, that is I, doing on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we're at For Your Ref Pod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

44:55KT: We're also on cowboy podcast if you like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Yeehaw.