The Son, Marc Maron, Missing, Rain Dogs & Creed III
Hosted by
KT & Oti
Show Notes
Welcome to Reference Max where we review The Son, Marc Maron: From Bleak to Dark, Missing, Rain Dogs & Creed III.
Episode Details
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- 0:00
- Released
- March 7, 2023
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- Episode
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Transcript
Transcript (10,093 words)
Full transcript of The Son, Marc Maron, Missing, Rain Dogs & Creed III.
KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. But more importantly, it's the re, re, re, re, re ent entering into our fifth year of the For Your Reference podcast. Oti.
Oti: Mm-hmm. .
KT: Um, uh, how are you feeling after the Takashi Miike run? You were a bit thirsty. You were a bit o over wanting.
Oti: Yeah. Uh, I was just happy to get, get it done and now we can move on.
KT: Yeah. And hopefully you are well satiated by mostly the red carpet appearances at the Fourth Annual Splooshies Awards. it's been very exciting. Again, love. Thanks and Splooshies to all of our friends and lovers that have joined us in this podcasting Love fest. Journey. Um, and thank you to a lot of the film studios and PR contacts.
KT: Um, we are going to be kicking off this year with a lot of the screeners. It's a great problem to have Oti, um, a little bit of producing to figure out. We currently have 10 plus screeners and screenings, um, that we've been given access and been invited to. So we're going to have a whole chunk of them today and sometime throughout this month. Um, we'll be releasing. To them. We've got a great, um, bunch of titles out there, Oti,
Oti: We sure do.
KT: very exciting. We might even be, um, dabbling into Gotham perhaps.
Oti: Oh,
KT: let's get on with the show. Welcome, friends and lovers to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT
Oti: and Oti.
KT: Welcome to Reference Max, where we will cover The Son, Marc Maron's comedy standup, Missing, Rain Dogs and Creed
Oti: Wow.
KT: III this week.
Oti: Such a great selection.
KT: It it, it is a delectable selection if you're nasty. Um, so let's start off, uh, we did watch this even before we did our run of Reference Degustation, so thank you to Sue and the team at TM publicity for giving us access to the preview screener of The Son. New to the For Your Reference household, we have director Florian Zeller as well as writer.
KT: We have Christopher Hampton. In stars, on IMDb. Very interesting. Um, Hugh Jackman's, not in the first three, which is usually what I do. Vanessa Kirby, Felix Godard, as well as Max Godard. Woohoohoo, usually with the format of. Ref Max. Um, we don't like to go into spoilers, so at least there are some nasty things that our nasty friends and lovers that haven't, um, watched that can get into. Um, what do you think? Zen McGrath as well, but what did you think about The Son?
Oti: I enjoy the movie. I think it really showcased a different level of, uh, Hugh's acting capabilities. I think the sound was really good as well. Um, those moments in the movie where I felt that he, as the father, had a lot of shortcomings that he had to deal with, and I think he just took such a, a hands-off approach for far too long and he was like, yeah, all right.
Oti: You know, and a lot of those things that we see in a lot of relationships with father and son that came to the forefront. And I think how, because we are not gonna go into spoilers, I just feel. I just feel like Peter had to do so much more in this movie. Yeah. In terms of taking responsibility, what can you say about Laura Dern, man, she is amazing. She plays Kate in this.
KT: I don't even know what's up with this IMDb credits. Cause didn't have Laura Dern either. it's being trollish.
Oti: Yeah. It, it is being childish. But I think the most important thing was just seeing the, the relationship and the struggle of Yeah. What Theo was going through. Yeah. It's hard moments in the theater where it got really quiet and even no one was eating their snacks.
KT: Yeah, that's Oti's barometer.
Oti: yeah.
KT: listen to our
Oti: When it's quiet. When it's quiet, you know, there's some emotional stuff going on. that was a different level, , but Wow. I think in as much as I, I saw the ending coming, uh, , and I think I saw it halfway through. I felt that there's no way any other way this could end. Yeah. Um, but totally still enjoyable.
KT: Okay. Um, you know, we, we are conscious of The Father and I'm sure at a particular point in time, you know, when we are feeling warm and fuzzy and nurtured and we are held in the most beautiful of ways, um, we will watch The Father. But I was excited to dabble into the world of Florian Zeller.
KT: Um, I really. You know, I really latch onto, you know, earnest insulate, um, you know, sort of displays of storytelling, you know, and in some cases it may even be a Marvel, it may even be something with broad appeal, or it can be something that is super indy, or, you know, only speaks to a specific sort of experience with universal sort of theme.
KT: So, um, I really appreciated, you know, the earnest sort of attempt in being honest, even if it was uncomfortable. Right. Um, even before we got into the screen, as Sue was saying, she likes it. It's different for Hugh Jackman. It's a bit sad And I was like, I'm actually fine with that. And you know, even going, you know, having the chance to go to screeners and this sort of thing, you know, I'm starting to realize that a lot of audience.
KT: Whether it's because they're looking for a cute night out or whatever it is, a lot of audiences aren't used to or prefer not to be in those uncomfortable sort of moments. So even when something not really that hilarious happens, people need to have that sort of decompression. You know, need to be able to laugh at anything that might even be, you know, a banal sort of, um, piece of humor.
KT: Not to say that this film is banal, but just that, you know, people are like, okay, I feel sad, I'm uncomfortable. Make me laugh. You know, gimme something to hold onto. Um, but I really appreciated that The Son really went. There. And, you know, even coming out of the cinema talking about Zen's performance, um, you know, without going into spoilers, but we, we are talking about Nicholas, who is a young boy and what I really appreciated, you know, about this film and, you know, we're not even parents ourselves, but what I really appreciated about it was you had this young kid going through something right.
KT: And whatever that something. Isn't important or doesn't need to be understood for a parent or for a loved one to be there and provide care and support.
Oti: Yeah. And usually you get this sort of reaction of we've been through us.
KT: Yeah, we, yeah. Yeah. With Anthony Hopkins. Is your dad though He's like the granddaddy of repression.
Oti: Yeah.
KT: Except for Armageddon Time. That was a beautiful sunshine. Anthony Hopkins in
Oti: Yeah, like pull yourself off me. We've been through us. So you can bring anything lesser to the table because you ain't been through it.
KT: It must be an interesting sort of tango because a lot of parents and you know, even our parents, um, were like, you know, we want you to have a better life. But then it's also like not that good of a life.
Oti: Mm-hmm
KT: to go through struggle as well. So it was interesting seeing, you know, at different sort of turning of the lens, you know, Peter became the son, you know, and Nicholas wasn't, you know, necessarily the focal point in a couple of the scenes. But, you know, because we're not talking a lot about spoilers, Laura. Laura Dern always brings a lot of warmth and humanity to all of her roles.
Oti: Oh yeah.
KT: So, you know, a, a role that could be seen as very hysterical woman, mother like sort of character. Um, she definitely grounded and she brought a lot of heart to, like I was, I was always rooting for her whenever Nicholas wasn't on the scene. Um, I was always rooting for Kate.
Oti: A hundred percent.
KT: What I will say about Peter's character, um, if we can separate our feelings for Mr. Jackman. If you're nasty, Peter ain't ever gonna be shit. Never was shit. And is always gonna be a dead beat Dad. Shit. . That's what I had to say.
Oti: Yeah. And he followed that philosophy. You know, if, if one family doesn't work, um, you know, just stir it up, get a new one.
KT: Yeah. Just, just, just, just um, pack up the Lego set and go somewhere else.
Oti: Yep.
KT: But it's, it's so interesting because, you know, um, like with the family sort of dynamics, like even if you were trying to be there for Nicholas, you didn't need to f fall far from the apple tree. Peter, like, it was pretty clear that this was affecting him.
Oti: Yeah, and I, I loved the fact that Nicholas didn't hold back in the hard questions as well. Yeah. He went and asked both Beth, Kate and Peter, they had question. They need to talk to their side about, yeah, there's no point, tip, tip, toying around those issues.
KT: Mm-hmm.
Oti: And it was just good seeing them put on the spot, especially Peter and him feeling like a crap dad because he needed to feel that.
KT: What's up with these Australian actors? It's kind of like Cate Blanchett in TÁR. She's like, I've been through stuff so I'm going to use that as an excuse. But you other people can't use it as an excuse. Peter was doing the same thing. My daddy don't love me, or he's never said he loved me, so I'm never going to show you full love. Come on.
Oti: Yeah. He saw a bar of my father was so crap that I just need to be less corrupt than that,
KT: Just because you are better than him doesn't mean you're a good dad. The math is the, the deadbeat dad shit is not math.
Oti: No, it's not
KT: Um, but I, I guess just wrapping up in regards to The Son, um, I, I really appreciated, you know, there, there were definitely a lot of, um, uncomfortable moments, um, in this film, but there was really, uh, You know, there was really trying to explore what fractured sort of dynamics do, especially if you go and, you know, have your own offspring and then how , how old the shit, because you're, you're fancy and you're in the business world, you know, Succession will treat, will teach you very quickly that just because you got the money and you got the design of clothes doesn't mean you've resolved any of that.
KT: Daddy.
Oti: No, indeed.
KT: The only thing I would say that I, I wished we had more of in The Son was, you know, I, I feel like, you know, imperfect characters also obviously make stories compelling, but I don't care for, and it bothers me when those imperfect sort of characters aren't challenged their perception of the world, what their sort of motivations are. And I feel like Peter could have been challenged a bit more.
Oti: Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like a lot of it was taking a look at the reactions, or it was more reactive towards what Peter was being presented by. Mm-hmm. rather than him taking a, a proactive approach in, in, in dealing with a lot of the issues that were raised. Yeah. Or he even faced.
KT: Absolutely, absolutely agree. Um, a, any sort of final thoughts for you? The proverbial For Your Reference, The Son
Oti: In as much as it was a gut wrenching movie and topics that were not easy to discuss, it's definitely necessary to bring those issues to the forefront. so that people see how they need to react and respond better to issues out there. Yeah. And a lot of the times someone suffering shouldn't be defined or makes sense to you because at the end of the day, that doesn't fucking matter. It's not about you and you understanding someone else's problem. It's about you being there and hearing and listening. Um, and I think The Son does that brilliantly.
KT: Yeah, it's just like Brett from, um, Archer. You wanna be like, why are you bleeding, Brett? He needs immediate help. It wa it's not time to do a diagnostics on that.
Oti: Godammit, Brett .
KT: And what a beautiful segue, I guess again, you know, carrying the theme of The Son. Um, thank you to the team, Binge as well as HBO. We were given a preview screener for Marc Maron: From Bleak to Dark.
Oti: Wow. . I didn't know I needed a stand for Marc Maron.
KT: Yes. Are you familiar with him? I guess is good to say.
Oti: I've been, I've been a fan for a long time. His podcast is something, he's the go, he's the grandfather of podcasting man. He, he, his standards, uh, his comedic chops, his interviews are just amazing. Mm-hmm. . Um, and to see him do. Felt like Christmas coming, Ali. Yeah. And I was not disappointed one bit. It was really exciting to see just how his wit was played out through the whole show. And I think it's one of the must watch, uh, standups of the Year.
KT: Oh, that's, and that's hot off coming off the Chris Rock one, right?
Oti: Yeah, it is, and it still remains one of the best.
KT: Nice. Absolutely. Love, love, love. Um, I'm not very familiar with Marc Maron. I, I am very aware of the podcast like Cover Art for his podcast. Um, I just haven't got around to checking him out, but I was very excited to check out this comedy's. Special, I guess even the name from Bleak to Dark. Um, you know, , can you do spoilers for a standup?
KT: I do feel like there are some, there are some great sort of gems inside of this standup that I definitely, I'm not gonna be, um, Michael Scott reciting Chris Rock lines. Like, I'm not gonna be reciting Marc Maron's lines. Um, but there are a couple of things I want to talk about and is special that I really enjoyed.
KT: Um, you know, friends and lovers. I even said a couple of minutes ago, even if it's broad appeal, even if it's a Marvel, like Wakanda Forever, for example, it's probably one of the biggest sort of ethos, I guess if we're ignoring Jimmy Cameron and his made up indigenous. People Um, you know, Wakanda Forever is very popular, but there was something about the way Ryan Coogler and everyone involved in the film were able to respectfully, um, demonstrate grief.
KT: Via way of real life, rest of love and peace and power. Chadwick Boseman. Um, even if we talk about Pussy Valley season two, there was a, a very grounded Katori Hall flavored way of addressing the pandemic. In ways that we never saw, that I would even say was unprecedented in television programming at the time.
KT: Um, and friends and lovers. Why am I mentioning Wakanda Forever in Pussy Valley? While I'm talking about Marc Maron? Um, he absolutely has a way to do this. And you know, there's, if you wanna stay, I would say, Superficially, um, not necessarily, you know, tethered, but if you wanna stay positive all the time, first off, that sounds very exhausting,
KT: Um, but second off, you know, there's absolutely spaces and creators and comedians. Um, that you can go to that, you know, have that sort of jovial 24 7, um, you know, I guess Black Mirror esque sort of positivity, if that's what you want. Right. Um, what I really appreciated from Marc Maron's special was he's like, fucking, no, it fucking sucks. It's gross. Here are my experiences. Perhaps we can overlap and we can find that sort of grounding together, you know?
Oti: Yeah, and he talks about very intimate stuff, personal stuff to him. And sometimes I did feel quite uncomfortable listening to it, even him finding hilarity in. Finding humor in moments, like it could be the worst thing that has happened to someone, and they find these moments of, you know, hilarity.
Oti: And in as much as it was uncomfortable for me to hear it, you could tell that it means so much more to him, it felt cathartic knowing that someone can overcome and find a moment of, of sort of a sleeve, a sleeve of happiness somewhere despite everything.
KT: Yeah. But I, I think that's the beauty of life, understanding the highs and the lows. Um, you don't want to get to a point where you're constantly doom scrolling all of the lows, but that really provides the richness.
KT: Um, Of life and, you know, um, I've kind of posted on our socials cuz thank you to HarperCollins. We, we do receive like advanced reading copies, which is very cute. We book, I'm a book gal as well as a film and TV gal. Um, but I, I did share very briefly and maybe in another time, um, you know, um, I'll get into like actual detail.
KT: But what I will say is, you know, for the last. Eight to 10 years. I've had a very close relationship of not just dementia, but early onset dementia. Mm-hmm. Like power to Chris Hemsworth, but I don't need to take that test. I don't, I don't need that as another notch on my struggle belt. Um, but what I will say to that is he talks about his relationship with his parents.
KT: Um, and he talks about his dad having dementia. And you, you talked about, you know, it being uncomfortable, but you've been in a loving, beautiful relationship with me. So you've also had a close contact on what it's like to have a loved one with dementia. Right? So, um, you know, in this special, I'm not going, again, I'm not gonna be Michael Scott.
KT: I'm not going to copy, um, any sort of senti. But he talks about sometimes there is a beauty to having a parent that has dementia, um, in, in ways that like are fucked up, but it's fucking hilarious. Yeah, and I think that might even be what you're talking about as well, but I was having a good old giggle gaggle.
KT: I was having a good cackle. Um, it's an exhale, you know, a lot of the humor and a lot of the levity that you can find in fucked up situations is a much needed exhale to the human experience.
Oti: Yeah, agreed. I was clutching on my pearls at some of those moments, but yeah. Yeah. Hilarious stuff, man.
KT: I also appreciated that he kind of kicked off his standup just talking about how like everything's going to shit. Like even just talking about the pandemic and how, you know, people keep, you know, trying to figure shit out or just ignoring, you know, the, the growing, increasing sort of situation that has been forecasted for a lot of years now. I personally got a lot out. Um, there was also a moment if you follow Marc Maron you might already have been aware of, but he talks about his partner passing away.
KT: Um, and you know, again, , it's, it's not something easy. It's not something you like trauma dump on a random person that you meet. Um, but I, I really appreciate it. His open sort of honesty and, you know, you can tell there's been a lot of healing that has happened since then for him to be able to talk about it.
KT: Um, You know, and, and the, the, the covid sort of protocols and being able to see her being able to grieve and, you know, there, there's some real life shit that's going on in the world if you are, if you're there to focus on it. But again, it's also understandable if you're not.
Oti: Yeah, it was good to see, um, that he had support as well, you know, during that time because that's one of the toughest things anyone can go through. Um, and to come, like I said, the, the uncomfortable moments where he jokes about sort of intimate stuff that I, I would never damn try and find any sort of humor in them, but, because that's just not who I am personally. But Wow. It's, it was very refreshing to.
KT: Yeah, absolutely. Um, he also touches on anti-Semitism, which is interesting as well. Again, you're not gonna catch me in a sound bite.
KT: I'm not gonna repeat any of it. Um, and there's also some funny . I, I think this is probably where, where the most sort of genuinely hilarious, not sad, um, hilarious when he talks about his mom. Um, but we're, we're going to leave. That, um, for you to watch it. But what I will say, this is definitely one of the things where I'm like, meet us in the dms, friends and lovers, cuz it'll be nice just to talk about it.
Oti: Yeah. I, I just know that it was a different time.
KT: is that a reference? Oh nice. Very nice. Um, let's move on. We. Missing. This is the 2023 film by directed by Nicholas D. Johnson, as well as Will Merrick Writers, as well as Will Nicholas and Sev Ohanian. In regards to stars, we have Tim Griffin, Ava Zaria Lee, as well as Nia Long and Storm Reid should also be on IMDb so we're gonna fight and Ken Leung while we are here as well. Um, this also follows off of Searching, John Cho, which I really enjoyed.
Oti: Yeah. Searching was really good and I felt like if you are doing it again, you know, you better bring it. Yeah. Because I didn't know what to expect with this movie. Uhhuh. , but I was in, uh, the minute, so Nia Long was part of the project,
KT: you had to know where she went and you had to find her. Because she'd been talking
Oti: course. You know, and as much as I came in for Nia Long, I stayed for Storm. She was amazing in
KT: Yes.
Oti: She was really
KT: Especially cuz we just saw her in The Last of Us around the same time.
Oti: Yeah.
KT: very emotional times for Storm Reid. Yeah.
Oti: me like, you know, we, I never really watched any trailers for this stuff. I thought Nia Long would be the one searching for someone that's missing the daughter or whatever. But that came to a surprise to me. Yeah. You know, and, and I was in for it because June, um, brought, she was really good in this.
KT: Oh yeah. She was onto it.
Oti: Wow.
KT: She even made me feel old the way she was typing so quickly and switching between apps. I think before we get deeper into the film, I do want to talk about this genre. I, I don't know what you want to call it, the screen share genre, , like, um, cause I, we watched Searching and I was very impressed by the way that it was filmed. Um, because, you know, it, it can become a novelty. A novelty. It can kind of come off as sort of a gimmick.
KT: But I really appreciate it because the story was, first we focused on the story and then obviously we had the sort of theatrics of the filmmaking as well. You know, like we even tried Unfriended , which, which definitely wasn't to the same sort of caliber. So coming back to Missing, I was very excited. I really enjoyed Searching. Um, and I absolutely agree with. It was, it was really cool to investigate the genre, um, through a young black girl, um, and her mother
Oti: A hundred percent. And I think if I was in that situation, I'd be so lost when
KT: do you mean like trying to contact, trying to figure out where to start?
Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I'd be lost, I think just freaking out rather than having to take action like that. I, I'd just be numbed to it all, man. I'll be frozen.
KT: Yeah. The, the, the first 40 minutes were really, really exciting because it was like, it was sensory overload in the best sort of ways. The way I think a lot of it was like captured off the FaceTime, but they had lots of different sort of features and it kind of reminded me of like our, um, Our click and play sort of huro com, like PC games, right.
KT: Where you, you're focusing on something, but then there were little Post-It notes that were being added, like, I guess it just shows how busy and how wired younger brains are, because it's not just focusing on one thing. There's so many details that are on the screen that are all playing a part to the plot of the film. Um, how did you feel about the performances?
Oti: I loved everyone in it, you know? Um, it, it was good to see, uh, Megan Suri as well.
KT: Uhhuh , yes. Very nice. it's good to see her escaping the Mindy Kaling storm that's going on at the moment.
Oti: but everyone brought it, you know, halfway through though I knew things weren't as they seemed. Yeah. And I think in as much as I love the movie, if it, it would've benefited if it was 20 minutes.
KT: you like it should have been the way that my mother, and I'm assuming your mother, a lot of ethnic mothers raised us to be, whenever people come over, you don't, you don't bring out all the food, you know, you just bring out some of the food and if they want some more, then you give some more. But they really just threw it all at the table and it's like, bruh,
Oti: what are you talking about? Bringing some of the food. We'll be turning the lights off and pretend you're home.
KT: Wow. you've been missing from your family for
Oti: the
KT: now.
Oti: we've got hat from you for 48 hours. Oh, that's all right. That's normal.
KT: But we see his pin moving. Nah, eyebrows. That's not him.
Oti: it's all
KT: Um, once again, friends and lovers meet us in the dms because the, the through line for this film, um, I would say is an interesting choice. I, I would say very tentatively. Um, but obviously we're not going to bring it into full fruition, um, in this review today. But yeah, it was interesting. I think the performances were great. The way it was filmed was great, but I think what we were working towards there wasn't necessarily a payoff.
Oti: Mm. And I think another interesting cover in this movie is the sort of victim blaming that we see because the media is sort of quick to latch onto headlines and bylines
KT: Oh, I see. I see.
Oti: Mm. And spin stories and to the
KT: gets very Shade Room.
Oti: It does. It does. To the point where you stop caring about the actual victim and you're all about titbits. That isn't really important. Yeah. But those become the main story and
KT: But they're spicy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Oti: yeah, yeah. The salaciousness still sells stories and whatnot, but we have to look beyond that. Mm-hmm. and sometimes we fall victim to all that
KT: I was waiting for Omar to jump from the bushes. That's a, uh, Fatal Affair. Deep cut. Friends and lovers.
Oti: of Love. Oh man, imagine if that was a crossover.
KT: true we're, we're deep into the black Twitter friends and lovers, apparently. Um, if I can get very real for a second, I'm not gonna spoil the film, but if I can get very real for a second as far as we end. Than this is grounded in the real world in the 2020s.
KT: And if I'm going to be KT Broski, I would say, you know, we, there's a reason why they call it missing white woman syndrome. Um, there's a reason why media gets more attention for young white women compared to indigenous or black women. Um, so I thought it was interesting that this world felt separate to it.
KT: I think that's the best way. I can say it without actually spoiling the film, but if, if we look at the statistics and if we look at where people spend their social sort of equity and their social sort of sympathy, um, it was very interesting that this was separate to that reality.
Oti: that man
KT: Oh,
Oti: classic KT, man. Hmm.
KT: Yeah, because you are not gonna bring the truth
Oti: you
KT: shocked at Marc Maron. But I've been Marc Maron all along, apparently um, shout outs to Amy Landecker. We're seeing her in everything. Tulsa King and something else. We was recently, we also saw her
Oti: Yeah. Um, Your Honor,
KT: and actually while we're thinking she's that, uh, conservative politician on Minx Minx. Very excited. Oh no, you're right.
Oti: Come through Starz giving us another spinoff of Yeah. Renewing. Not even renewing. Reviving Minx. Yeah. Amazing.
KT: Two 50 cents equal a Starz dollar. Um, guess why we're here, Ken Leung, um, friends and lovers, if you guys like Industry, please meet us in the dms. I, uh, I, I'm confused, but I would like to know, um, if you're enjoying it. We do love Ken. Um, but yeah, all round and enjoyable, interesting balls to the wall film.
Oti: It was very thrilling. I think it'll interest most of you people out there.
KT: You people, oh, tell us you've been watching Kenya Barris only 24 7
Oti: I'm speaking to the light-skinned brothers out there. Come on,
KT: Because the light-skinned brothers need more representation. Is that what we're saying?
Oti: Oh, for real, Oh, but seriously, um,
KT: you can't, but seriously, after doing that, you will never be taken seriously in this town, sir
Oti: No. It's, it's a thrilling movie with great performances that really just showcase that this genre works. and we need more of it.
KT: Okay. Well, I, I guess we need more of it in the way that it gets done because I think what happens a lot is you'll get a lot of copies, even if it's not to the same level, right? Mm-hmm. . So we kind of need to make sure we keep the same sort of
Oti: but we are not gate keepers. We welcome anything you can swing
KT: Well, I guess if you're gonna speak on behalf of us, that's absolutely not what I said Um, let's move in into the next, um, sort of screener, um, that we received. So this series has already come out. Thank you to the team at Binge as well as HBO. And this is a British show. So this is a show that comes from Cash Carraway. Um, also as you may, uh, be aware of the author, um, and it talks about a working class, single mom, 10 year old daughter, um, and her bestie frmi, not bestie, who's a gay.
Oti: Mm-hmm.
KT: So it kind of, it, all of the ingredients are there really, um, to set up the show. We've had a chance to, um, check out the first couple of episodes of this show. Um, and obviously we're not going to talk about spoilers more just, uh, you know, a, a mist of Vanessa Essence in the air. Yeah.
Oti: Yeah. Um, I think the way it started off strongly, I quickly gravitated towards, uh, Selby the character.
KT: Yeah, cuz he said strong and I'm like, I think some of the characters, like Costello for example, came off a bit too strong.
Oti: it gave vibes of those characters on American Idol where they say, I slept in the cold with my baby four, five months just to do this. No, bro, you didn't to do better for your daughter.
KT: She needs four walls and a kitchen.
Oti: Yeah. Uh, I think in as. We know it's, it's sort of a, a comedic take on, on these situations. It's still disheartening, at least to
KT: I wasn't laughing though
Oti: exactly. It, it felt very irresponsible to me. Mm-hmm. , the daughter didn't need to understand exactly their situation like that.
KT: We inadvertently created the parent's edition because all of the , everything we're covering today has a through line of parenting and perhaps not the best ways to do it.
KT: Um, I, I absolutely agree with you and you know, You know, we did get a nice handful, um, of screeners, but given the nature of this show, like I kind of just wanted to have the couple that we watched and then watch it as people are watching it because you are right. I think both of us have a very set idea on not even like the right way that Costello should be doing something, but it seemed like everything she was doing was not in the interest or the welfare.
KT: Um, and I think that's part. Because, you know, I even said it, um, of course it's, it's me being me. You know, I even said it when we did The Passion of the Christ episode. Like, cool, it's Jesus, but you need to give us a reason to like fall in love and cheer or cheer, um, him on. And it's kind of the same with Costello.
KT: We just got thrust into, and maybe that's the cataclysmic sort of world, um, that, that wanted to be created for Rain Dogs, but there was something about the. That Costello flitted through, you know, these sort of, you know, even facing evictions and that sort of thing. You know, part of, I, I guess part of the barometer for me is like, however you parent is however you parent.
KT: But if your kid needs to edit and need to adapt and in some cases console the parent, then you can fuck off. Cuz that's, that, that's not a way your kid should be.
Oti: It's not. And I think funnily enough, I think Costello thought she was doing the best she can for the daughter and sh oh, she didn't see it as a problem in how she navigated life.
KT: that. Yes.
Oti: and I think that's where there was the disconnect for me, because to have a character fully disconnected from her own judgments like that, to the point to Selby who's been incarcerated for, I don't know how long comes up and it still feels like the better option to to raise the daughter. I don't know, lack those situations. She put the daughter in that I thought, how irresponsible do you have to.
KT: Yeah. Like, and I guess, you know, there's also the talk of addiction as well, and maybe we are just catching the story at a time that isn't as sympathetic towards Costello. But at the end of the day, I think it's always writing, you know?
Oti: it is, and I think there's a different way to do it in such that, in such that there's that resonance was Costello's a character? It felt very just gung-ho, I'm just gonna do this because for a quick laugh, which didn't make me laugh and it just irritated me. Some aspects. Yeah. Uh, but definitely it's something that I'd want to continue watching.
KT: but we've been known to be blown away and like latch onto a show. Later, like not immediately. Right? Yeah. So, so there's definitely a lot of hope for this show, but I think even just getting a handful to get a tasting of what it's like and then to watch it with audiences, um, I think will be very interesting. So I'm hoping for all the best for Costello. Um, Selby is always going to be around and I think Costello knows that. So I hope that them two just figure their shit out together.
Oti: Yeah. And, and, and for some weird reason, Costello has a, a twin sister in Gloria, who's, they're exactly alike. Yeah.
KT: Yeah. They should be on
Oti: man, they
KT: on those articles of like twin siblings.
Oti: Yeah. Wild . But I think you could tell the comedic timings and whatnot. It's, it's, it's written quite well. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so it's definitely something that we are going to continue. We just want to discuss it better with our peeps as we go along.
KT: Are we not gonna acknowledge Gloria's daddy, Steve Toussaint, our Corlys? Mm.
Oti: Mm-hmm.
KT: Because, because, because we do our research and for no other reason, I'm definitely not thirsting online. I saw Steve Toussaint in the, you know, opening sort of scenes and I was like, Corlys is in this and you are like, what? And then as soon as he turned up, we're like, there he is.
Oti: There are no black people in this era.
KT: Rich, what
Oti: are you talking about,
KT: Yeah, managing a funeral parlor, I believe.
Oti: Mm-hmm. . And we also had Karl Pilkington who have not got into yet.
KT: Yeah, so that's something to look forward to. Very
Oti: I wonder if it'll be unimpressed in all his scenes. Yeah.
KT: you would've. That's. You wouldn't want him to be like super enthusiastic. Right. you know what would be really cool if he's like Selby's older brother or something.
Oti: Mm-hmm.
KT: That could work. That could absolutely work. Um, well let's move on to see if this does work. Creed III, Oti.
Oti: Woo, woo woo.
KT: it's a toss up. Friends and lovers. Um, again, because we've been blessed with, um, you know, screenings and screeners, it is a toss up to see how many we can fit in a Ref Max. What we believe will be, um, individual review episodes TÁR absolutely is on its way. Friends and lovers. Danielle did while no one else exists, really, in my opinion.
Oti: Mm-hmm.
KT: and if you're up for it, Oti, I think Breaking should be its own review as.
Oti: Agreed.
KT: All right. Um, well, let's giddy up. Let's yha into Creed III. Um, we can talk about the first two films as well. Um, but this is very excitingly. The way to end the bout is that, am I doing a sports talk?
Oti: Oh, you're doing the talks. A
KT: the way to TKO The final bout we. The directorial debut from Michael B. Jordan. Woohoo, with his non corny ass
Oti: Writers,
KT: Keenan Coogler, Zach Baylin, as well as Ryan Coogler in way of stars. Michael B. Jordan, Tessa Thompson, Jonathan Majors Run it back. Wood Harris, Phylicia Rashad, I suppose. And Mila Davis-Kent, Amara Creed.
Oti: Wow, wow, wow,
KT: wow, wow, wow, For those playing at home, Oti, do you wanna give us a little bit of a summary on how you feel about the Rocky Films and the Creed films before we get to Creed III?
Oti: Oh. As a fan of Rocky, you've gotta love Creed. At least the way there's been a steady progression in Creed. You know, some series stall off a bit, but I think Creed has gone from strength to strength and that's not an easy feat. Uhhuh, and Kudos to Michael B, man, that was fantastic. His directorial debut
KT: Michael B. directing. Mm-hmm. , that's a joke he made on SNL. I can't take credit for that. Um, but speaking of credit, thank you so much to Warner Bros., LADbible, um, as well as Universal Pictures for inviting us to the preview screening of Creed III.
Oti: Thank you.
KT: Biggest thank you to Oti for letting me run onto the carpet and doing it for the Gram Um, okay, so Rocky Films. I don't think we got to the end of the Rocky Run, but I have watched a good Adrian Handful, so I get the reference friends and lovers. Um, Creed one I thought was very interesting, you know, um, this was, you know, a starry-eyed, even though we knew Michael B. Jordan, um, from where the fuck is Wallace in The Wire?
KT: It very much was that, you know, that that next sort of era for Michael B. Jordan Fruitvale Station, um, you know, and some really heavy hitting sort of performances, if you're pardon in the pun. So you've also got him in Creed as. Um, it was interesting because I, I think whenever you see Michael B. Jordan, you know, you're going to get some great performances.
KT: Um, I think the world that, uh, you know, Adonis and Bianca built together was very real, very sexy. I think a lot of us think that's what we look like, but we don't. When we're having our, um, we found love in a hopeless place. That's not what we look like, but it's okay if that's how you feel. Um, like it was really cool, the world that was built there.
KT: But, you know, friends and lovers, we are, you know, part of the film sort of ethos world that exists. So we can't not address the fact that your mate, Sylvester Stallone, went and did his speech and I'm pretty sure he won for Creed and even forgot to acknowledge anyone else.
Oti: He forgot to acknowledge Michael B. Yeah, just say it, man. say with the chest,
KT: Hey, why are you giving me that Damian Anderson energy? We haven't even got into Jonathan Majors yet.
Oti: Oh, do you mean Mary-Anne's energy? Yeah, because you know full Well she the villain in this movie.
KT: Yeah. Especially as the Dame
Oti: is the survivors. Yeah. . But wow. I think this movie, it was good to see Adonis and Dame pair it up. Yeah, it was an interesting battle that they set the temple for quite early and it was intriguing. I wanted to see that fight and how it unfold because it completely to sort of two different fighters and in as much as you know, that was the sort of final end goal because it's super easy and I think it was probably in the trailers, it was still invigorating. Exciting to watch.
KT: Okay. Okay. It's getting Muk. Before we get into actually talking about the film, just give me a, a nice tasty morsel of what you thought about the film, specifically Michael B. Jordan's directorial debut.
Oti: I think he did a good job. I think he, he brought, um, a lot of heart to it. I love the sort of closeup shots that we got, you know? Yeah. It felt very shocky, but , it walked,
KT: are we talking Robert Downey Jr? Or are we talking about uh, Cumberbatch
Oti: Oh, Robert Downey Jr. Man. Oh, I
KT: didn't even let me say Cumberbatch Plantation. Cumberbatch. He didn't even let me finish saying that.
Oti: Nah, he, he knows what he needs to do.
KT: Creed, but it's me just punching plantation owners and going back into the past.
Oti: oh bro, you've got relatives you need to take care of fast,
KT: I don't know, how far does your family name go? Oti.
Oti: Oh man. Must be a kaba in there somewhere.
KT: Can we, can we, can we draw a line between you and the are you, are you and The Woman King, Oti.
Oti: Well, you called me up for that. So, uh, I did
KT: and I will continue to call you out and make you an honest man in the publics Um, I guess my, my general sort of thoughts, I think Creed III was a very exciting, um, extension of what we have already come to know, um, about Adonis. Michael B. Jordan had some very. Interesting aesthetics and visuals throughout the film. Um, it was a great first offering for his directing, and I'm really looking forward to what it would look like in the future for him to be able to connect the feeling of the story to the directing sort of vision that he has.
Oti: then? Ooh, I, I think the feeling of the story was that, the feeling of the story was then, I just feel like it was misplaced a bit.
KT: I don't think it was misplaced. It was just like, why'd you put it there and you weren't going to? Because you know, even having Amara Creed being deaf, like something that I really loved and friends and lovers, we will be covering.
KT: The Fox series Accused. There are some very. Some hidden myth. Well, there are some misses, but there are some very great, um, episodes in the anthology series Accused. And the reason why I talk about that is there is a specific story, I think it's Ava's story, um, where we focus on a deaf protagonist, right?
KT: And there was a focus on that story about Ava not being supported. No one, not her mother. No one in her. Learned how to sign. Right. So coming to Creed III, it was so beautiful to see even, you know, even in moments where Amara wasn't around Adonis and Bianca would be signing to each other. Mm. Maybe it's a way to subtly fight, but still,
Oti: yeah. Here though, well, I think when I talked about the misplaced feeling side of it was more geared towards the supposed villain in
KT: Okay. We, we, we'll, we'll definitely come to that, but is there anything else you wanna say about how they represented the deaf hearing impaired community?
Oti: They've done it since Creed II, I think. So it was good to see it take, um, a bigger stage in this as well. Yeah. Um, and the more visibility it gets, the better as well. So I'm all for it, man.
KT: Okay. Alright. Well let's, let's go full balls to the wall. Jonathan Majors. Welcome again to the For Your Reference Podcast we are talking about. Do you go by Damian or Dame?
Oti: Dame.
KT: Is it also Damian? Because that name's like associated with Satan. Is that also as well? Where they named him that
Oti: Oh, bro. . Huh?
KT: I'm doing my, um,
Oti: this moment Classes. You went to, eh, ? I'm doing
KT: Angels in No Da Vinci Code. I'm doing my Da Vinci code pen line right now.
Oti: Apple I've sold it for you. Yes.
KT: What a time. What a time and space. Friends and
Oti: Oh my word. Uh, what? Dame. He gets the short end of the stick.
KT: Watch this become a full review now because I
Oti: it, it's not gonna be a full review because I'm not gonna even give you spoilers. But he gets the short end of the stick in this. Yeah. To the point where the soon as he is introduced to the movie, you understand and you can reason it with his character.
KT: Yeah, absolutely.
Oti: And him being taken. or incarcerated, his career short-lived. And he has every right to have qualms with that. Yeah. To the point where Adonis's reaction. Yeah. I'm like, bro, bro, bro, bruh, do better.
KT: Yeah.
Oti: Be better. Mm-hmm. and Mary-Anne
KT: No.
Oti: Oh.
KT: leave your sissy Mary-Anne.
Oti: The points where we come to call characters in. And and KT, the
KT: of characters that you always like calling into
Oti: No, I, I feel like you, you defend certain type of characters.
KT: say black woman
Oti: Whoa. We're talking
KT: Mary-Anne Creed. We're talking about Cissy Saint. Snowfall. I know what you're doing. Oti.
Oti: I was just gonna say, you defend a lot of the women in question here who? No, just women.
KT: Okay. But they always seem to be black than you are Dicky about
Oti: No, no, no, no, no. She did a lot of questionable things in this movie.
KT: Yes. And because we're not getting too deep into spoilers, I can agree with you're redacted, but also that doesn't , that doesn't equal the way that the energy that you came in with.
Oti: no, no. There's only been a lot of energy. It's just an observation.
KT: just caffeinated yourself. You just got energy out of nowhere. Right now,
Oti: all, everything. That Dame had to go through is completely understandable. And I think a lot of the people watching this movie Will, will not only resonate, but they'll be like, bra yeah. Dame. Yeah. Are you sure?
KT: That's a damn shame.
Oti: And, and, and under the end, even the resolution, I was like, this wasn't needed. It felt cheap to me. Yeah.
KT: Okay, so, so this is, this is what I will say because you know, people say, you know, leave your brain at the door. Well, motherfuckers, I say that probably didn't have much of a brain to start off with , but people like leave your brain at the door and enjoy it. Find cool, whatever you want to do. But we're also living in the tethered John Singleton rest and love and peace and power world. If we can get a film like Boyz n the Hood in the 90s. Oti
Oti: his first movie as well,
KT: where we talk about black men don't need to be fighting a white man's war. When we talk about gentrification,
Oti: say it.
KT: when we talk about mistreating and neglecting our own kin
Oti: Speak it.
KT: I'm trying to your motherfucker, Dr. , Dr. Oti Omar, up in the house, um, but like to have a film like Boyz n the.
KT: Like, just as an example, and obviously like we can talk about Spike Lee as well, but to have a film like Boyz n the Hood that came out in the nineties and to have this film Creed and Less, because you know, even behind the screen we have, we have black creatives as well. Right. And you know, I guess we can also talk about mass appeal and marketing execs and that sort of Um, but it, it's definitely not hollow in its representation of the black experience. However we need to talk about this the same way that I talked about missing and missing white woman syndrome and that sort of thing. We need to address this again, friends and lovers. Unless you are, um, uh, an insulated wool baby of the world and you don't understand how the world works, this will be a spoiler to you.
KT: Yeah. So we have Dame who you've acknowledged, kind of like the older brother sort of mentor. To Adonis and you say like his, his career, he was really up there. I think he even talked about being like a national champion, right? So he was really on his way to stardom. Um, and you know, Adonis was always there, you know, behind him, always having that sort of brotherhood, right? Maybe even brothers in the hood, if you're part in the pond.
Oti: Oh,
KT: But you, you have this relationship, right? Uh, a way that they make it through the world together. Unfortunately, events transpire where Dame has to go away, right? In that time, Adonis is rising through the ranks, and he is, you know, he's, he's getting his earned title right, and then Dame comes out.
KT: So that's not even a spoiler, but I'm setting up the dynamics of this film. Dame comes out, he's older than a. He, he definitely feels whether the audience feels like it's, it's, it's, um, warranted or not. Dame feels like he's, he needs his due. Right? And that's absolutely what the dynamics are. I think part of the qualm, quarrel and quandary that I had in particular with Creed III, Was, we are with you fem, like we are absolutely.
KT: From this place that you are operating from, so let's, let's navigate that way. Right? It was this, it was as if Adonis like was trying to ignore like a homeless person on the street, like he was trying to ignore this whole situation and it's like, not bra like You are a part, you are a part. You know what I mean?
KT: Mm-hmm. , you shouldn't feel guilty for your success, but you also need to acknowledge that your lives aren't the same, you know? And to have the villain be Dame. I think, like you said, it was very irresponsible to make him the The wretched mustache twirling villain.
Oti: You're right. It, it was irresponsible to the point where even when they come to, you know, the, there's a clash between them. I'm like, I still understand all this. I still understand the anger and the frustration. Yeah. Anyone would be dame in this situation. I'd be Dame,
KT: Yes.
Oti: Not as jacked, but I'll be as angry.
KT: just as delicious.
Oti: Okay. Um, no, I can't, uh, fonde my words, eh, But
KT: you turn into Chris Pratt's, Mario
Oti: Oh my God. Do even talk about
KT: No, we don't talk about it. Mm-hmm. , we don't talk about, let's go back to Dame.
Oti: It was a very good casting decision from Michael B in this, because he just brings so much to this
KT: quality.
Oti: You could. He,
KT: can, I just say the whole, but the whole cast in this film brought solid performances. That's kind of why I'm leaning on the writing. Um, because Jonathan Majors, one thing you know he's going to do, he's going to fucking.
Oti: Oh, coming after the Coogler brothers? Eh,
KT: no, I'm not coming after the Coogler brother.
Oti: Oh. Something about black men writing, eh,
KT: How long have you been sitting on that?
Oti: Tell me how you feel, man.
KT: No, there were like, there were particular lines of dialogue that just felt like, um, what are those people that go to the gym do, like hashtag motivation Monday and all that sort of stuff. Um, shout out to Wood Harris. It was nice seeing him. It's always beautiful seeing Wood Harris, but he even said a line as well. Um, he, he is just trying to fight the world, you know? He's angry man, and it's like, come on. Like, you know,
Oti: rightfully so.
KT: Rightfully so, but there's a nuance to the penmanship in some cases. So, um, yeah, Jonathan Majors is always going to deliver, and again, this is not a spoiler unless for some reason you believe in the power of friendship.
KT: Jonathan Majors is fucking jacked. Like, I don't know in what world, because this man is in everything now. Like if you're a, if you're a Marvel fanboy or if you love, you know, a a, an interesting sort of turn on Lovecraft Country, if you love The Harder They Fall, like this beautiful man is, is, is laying out himself everywhere else, right? So you, you know where Jonathan Majors is, you know, he is jacked to the gods. May I say that Adam Levine dad. Oh, that chess, God, flex the muscles. God.
Oti: And this is how I introduce Pav, KT to the world.
KT: People say Jonathan Majors doesn't have a social media, but I, I've been messaging every day. God,
Oti: that's why he doesn't have a social media account anymore.
KT: you blocked me again. Anyway, the point is Jonathan Jacked majors, like even if you, okay, fine. We're, we're watching the film. He's like, he's an older man and he's in prison and he's like coming out, so he needs to exercise and get his montage fine. I can suspend my belief for that much.
KT: Obviously no spoilers for the film, but he doesn't just have one fight. He has fights leading up to, you know, Naruto as Michael B. Jordan would say. Um, and Sasuke, you know that, that major sort of showdown, right? Who in the world thinks that Jonathan Majors isn't just gonna knock every motherfucker out? Like who in this world,
Oti: in a world where Adonis Creed exists,
KT: Unless we have like Master Roshi or Jiji, um, in Ichi the Killer unless you have like, you know, like 80 year old scrawny men outta nowhere having like their little muscles coming out of their robes. I just don't understand how far we can suspend belief that Jonathan Majors in his whole beauty and glory isn't just gonna knock everyone out.
Oti: Muscles does not a fight or make.
KT: Yeah, I know, but you, you wouldn't fight him, would you?
Oti: Well, I don't know. Get, get myself into a montage, could get
KT: montage.
Oti: I could get in shape. You know, we love it.
KT: An Oti montage. Okay, well if that's what you wanna say, but I, I, personally, it was very hard for me cuz I was like, okay, we're going through the mechanics of the film, but I, I don't believe that this is even a struggle.
KT: For him to knock out these motherfuckers. But anyway, um, something that I want to end on, unless you have anything else to say, I wanna talk about, you know, even Michael B. Jordan, I, I need to watch a bit more interviews, but even he talks about, you know, the anime sort of influences in the fight scenes. I guess don't go into too much detail so we're not spoiling it. Um, but how do you feel, was this a hashtag anime canon or was it a hashtag Ostrich filler?
Oti: Oh, anime take Oh, well, BK style. Yeah, . Okay. . I, I compared it to, um, Shlock. So
KT: yeah.
Oti: You know what? I come from it,
KT: yeah. The Crown.
Oti: Wow. Yeah, I could, I could see, I could see that, um, in retrospect, I, I don't think
KT: you wouldn't have seen it
Oti: it. I don't think it, it stood out to me, um, while watching it live.
KT: Yeah, it was kind of like the , I'm not saying quality wise, but you know how in Dragonball Evolution, where they didn't commit to like Bulma's hair, so she just had one streak of the blue. Because I, I also didn't see it as, well, I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
KT: I think if, um, if I already knew going in, so I was looking for it. I guess you could talk about like the slowmo shots and stuff, but like you even talked, um, well, , I don't know if you're being facetious, but you mentioned Turlock, like there are other fighting films or fighting sort of sequences that aren't anime that do those sort of shots.
KT: right. Um, you know, if they were really trying to do anime, I would've expected, like, I guess Dame in this instance of like the strongest character not even moving, just like tilting his head a little bit
Oti: That
KT: been full blown anime to me. Um, interesting, interesting. There, there is a sequence at the end that um, I don't wanna spoil, but do you think that's, that, that sort of visual effect of the end screen, do you think that drove home the anime.
Oti: Yeah. Like, I, I can't really say it. I think maybe in our second rewatch I might pick up those anime references or Easter eggs or shots that he put in. Uh,
KT: whether they were there or not, it was still cool fighting sequences.
Oti: It was. And, um,
KT: let's fighting love The South Park count is an anime,
Oti: Oh wow. And I'm sure in our secondary watch we'd, we, we'd pick all these anime references up.
KT: But even if we don't, that's a watching experience. You don't need to invalidate your experience. Oti
Oti: need to
KT: shout out to Selenis Leyva, who we also see in Breaking. Um, she did very well. Felix is really cool. I don't know if I've seen him around and stuff, but it'll be cool to see him around the town.
Oti: Yeah. Yeah, it, it was good seeing that. I think maybe Felix, uh, gets a bigger shot in a new version of Creed.
KT: Okay. The Creed verse? Mm-hmm. , not the Creed from The Office.
Oti: That would be something though.
KT: Yeah, it would be Creed, blogs, There's your mainstream references, friends and lovers. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. Um, if you've checked it all out, The Son, Marc Maron's From Bleak to Dark, Missing, Rain Dogs, as well as Creed III. Um, give us your thoughts, give us your hot takes, your feeling,
Oti: Mm-hmm. and
KT: see you guys next week.
Oti: Let's see you.
KT: Bye.
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