The Panthers – Fighting worldwide pain through local radical change

Full transcript of The Panthers – Fighting worldwide pain through local radical change.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and guess what Oti? We have a new patron shout out. That's me enjoying the dancehall, but not occupying it Oti. Speaking of story sovereignty, shout outs, love, and splooshes to Emele and the team at Studio Kiin. Thank you so much for coming on board as patrons. We were invited to an interactive show just a couple of months ago. They have really exciting stuff, so make sure you sign up to their newsletter. We'll put it as a part of quid pro quo

0:36KT: in our show notes as well as the Unravel podcast and Sohwa Tekin. Speaking of indigenous led stories, Oti, let's get on with the show. Friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:36Oti: And Oti.

0:36KT: Hi, Ramai. To a thriving New Zealand where the economic boom is powered by colonial superiority, racism, and Pacific Island labor. Fight the power with the Panthers this week. Let's get into a general stats and information produced and created by Halaifonua Finau,

1:44KT: as well as Tom Hern, as well as writing. We have Tom Dreaver, James Napier Robertson, Suli Moa, as well as Fiona Samuel in way of directors. We have Miki Magasiva, Mario Faumui, Chris Graham, Tom Hern, and Vea Mafile'o. This show exclusively aired in TV New Zealand in New Zealand and most recently released in Paramount Australia in August 2021 in New Zealand. And in way of cast, we have Dimitrius Schuster-Koloamatangi, Lealani Siaosi, as well as Roy Billing. Ho ho ho. Wow, wow, wow. Friends and lovers, for those that have no periphery

2:30KT: or don't know what we are going to talk about today, I would encourage you to stay. I feel like it's going to be a learning moment and perhaps a healing moment for some of us. Although it is also time to say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, marching all around the world essentially. So I am aware, especially within my known self and I am Tongan and I do have family that are still and were in New Zealand at the time. And even I don't have a lot of context and periphery.

3:06KT: So I did do some research. I'm going to put all of the links in the show notes. So let's get into first impressions of the show as we came on the journey, which wasn't a lot of context. I'll give some history and then we can talk straight about the show. What did you feel about the Panthers Oti?

3:06Oti: I didn't know, first of all, that those are Black Panthers.

3:28Oti: Chopped out in New Zealand, that was new to me. It was interesting just seeing how everything that they were fighting against because

3:37Oti: I didn't know much about New Zealand and what they're going through. I've heard you mention Dawn Raids a couple of times. Yep. But even that's quite recent to me. Yeah. So it it was all new. I didn't know what to expect from the show. It was interesting seeing the sort of trepidations that they're they're facing and what they're fighting for, especially in Will being the protagonist. I think I didn't really connect with him that much or felt like he wasn't as as effective as I wanted him to be or as a leader.

4:08Oti: When you think about a leader or someone who starts a revolution, you kinda associate it with sort of type of characteristics and and behaviors, and we all sort of rubbed went against the grain for most part of it. Were you looking for revolutionary? I was. And it was just it was it was interesting for lack of a better word. By the end of it, I think I had some qualms in terms of the resolution and the portrayal of what Will must have played in it because I felt like he he copped out

4:46Oti: a couple of times. Yeah. And, yeah, it was just wild. Think going into this journey, I know we're all humans, you're not perfect and all that. You have to put that lens on when you're talking about this, especially when you're, you know, it's when it's more of a biographical sort of show. So to that degree, think it was interesting to see. I think I learned something new about it.

4:46KT: Oh, absolutely. And I think we're at a very exciting time where globally

5:13KT: we are seeing indigenous stories, not only having an audience that has an appetite for it, but we're getting indigenous creatives that are creating these stories and nurturing these sort of narratives. We see that with Rutherford Falls, we see that with Reservation Dogs, in regards to native Americans. We've covered Head High as well on the podcast. Well, obviously we've covered Boy as well as Hunt for the Wilderpeople. Total Control, we literally just covered Mystery Road. There's such a richness of indigenous storytelling and

5:52KT: like Oti said in Redfern Now, keep your dollies and let people write their fucking stories. Mhmm. And this is absolutely where we're coming to, but unfortunately, we are also in the Venn diagram of growing quality of cinema and that also includes TV shows. And I I guess the reason why I mentioned that is because, it's not the fault of the show. However, we are consuming in a tapestry where there are decades and decades of in particular black American filmmaking. So we've been satiated with stories of very specific pain, but at the same time,

6:37KT: we don't know what Maori and Pacific Islander pain looks like. So we're in a world where we expect a lot of quality in regards to production, but we're also in a world where even myself, I don't have a lot of periphery sort of context for what's happening. We also mentioned this in the Judas and the Black Messiah episode. We didn't really know much about Fred Hampton. That's not necessarily shame on the film. That's more on us to go and do research. But at the same time, we were still familiar with the narrative

7:10KT: and with the context in which, you know, Fred Hampton was situated. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And shout outs to our pal, Tim, from the Provise Project. I'll put it in the show notes, but he had an interview with Nua Finau, the creator of the show. And they talk about a lot of detail in regards to the TV show.

7:33KT: And I do just wanna note a couple of here because this is really interesting because, again, it is perhaps shame on us that we don't know. But also even trying to research in regards to the Black Panthers as well as the Dawn Raids, there isn't really a lot that is available, and you kind of have to go digging in specific New Zealand news sites as well. But one of the interesting sort of tidbits that came out of that interview was when they cut Muldoon's

7:59KT: speech in the town hall, that didn't actually happen. Oh, really? What actually happened and what it was inspired from to me was actually more interesting. It was actually cutting the mics for the queen during her speech at Waitangi. That would have been way better. So I guess the context there is talking about sovereignty of the Maori people and they cut the mics so the queen wouldn't be able to speak. So I I think it was explained in the interview with on Tim's podcast

8:30KT: that that that would have added an extra layer of complexity. But I would say we can fucking handle it. Like, that is so delicious to me. That is so much more interesting to

8:30Oti: By complexity, do you mean controversy?

8:30KT: No. Because so we have the New Zealand government that is predominantly white, that is setting laws for indigenous Maori people as well as Pacific Islander migrants. So that's one element, and that's a big element that we focus on in the Panthers, but there's also the element of colonization.

9:03KT: So I just thought we we we could have been afforded a bit more dimension in the show. Yeah. I see that. And also another tidbit from that particular interview, there were events that apparently was so wild that Nua didn't want to add it into the show. I'm just going to say what it was. So apparently, the Panthers blew off the doors with dynamite at the central police station. Oh, okay. And that was in response to locking up islanders for no reason. Mhmm. I thought that would have been pretty radical and revolutionary.

9:37Oti: Yeah. So when he says that it would have been too much for the walls is thinking

9:37KT: He said essentially it's a terrorist act, which cool, but we're also fighting the power so it kind of makes sense.

9:50Oti: Yeah. It it really isn't a terrorist act though. So

9:54KT: Yeah. But at the same time, we were saying that people should own up to the consequences for their actions in Total Control. Right? We are. Yeah. Go and listen to that episode. We don't necessarily condone doxing, but there are circumstances where we will look the other way.

10:12Oti: When when you when you're fighting oppression, especially during those times, I think you had to do everything within your power to to to get noticed, to to show that whatever sort of dissent that you cause is because of the injustices being faced. And if blowing up a bloody door is is terrorism now, then we're pretty much just rewriting bloody history. Then any of the colonial warriors that are fighting against the oppression would pretty much be dubbed

10:43Oti: terrorists because they're going against the supposed power of the time. I think that's a misstep. I wouldn't even classify it as a terrorism act because what else are you supposed to do when you're being pushed against the wall?

10:43KT: I absolutely agree with you. And I think also at the same time,

11:00KT: I wouldn't say necessarily that it sanitized it, but I think it would have filled a lot of gaps in regards to how we felt about this show, because again, we didn't have any sort of context of where this was coming from. And I think a lot of the time it didn't feel as though the uprising matched the level of brutality. And I'm not saying take us through Lupita suffering in 12 Years a Slave, but I'm also saying we needed to understand what was happening

11:31KT: and because this is one of the first, at least in our household of trying to understand these events,

11:37KT: we kinda needed a history educational sort of moment as well.

11:37Oti: Yeah. This is why you have to go outside of the source material by source material being being the show to find out exactly what was going on because I felt like it fell short a couple of times Yeah. Explaining those details. And I think if if Nua did feel that he had to sanitize it a bit, I think fine. But but also I wanted more backstory or more

12:04Oti: of what was actually happening because I thought I just it it felt like they're moving with emotions without it necessarily being rooted to one thing. Mhmm. And that's why I was like, oh, why is this happening? Why is Will acting like this? Why is Will being a dick to his brother? Yeah. You know?

12:04KT: Oh, yes. Hold on to that tasty nugget because I'm gonna bite it off you, Oti.

12:04Oti: Yeah. It felt very left field. I was like, okay. Give me the context,

12:30Oti: and maybe that would have made the show longer.

12:30KT: Just classic world building.

12:30Oti: Yeah. Just classic world building. Yeah. Me care about Will, make me understand Will rather than me feeling like Will is just some spoiled kid who doesn't know the world.

12:30KT: Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I've got a whole list of themes that I want us to talk through. So I am going to cover one thing specifically, and then I'm going to give just a bit of context

12:58KT: in regards to history. But personally for myself, I'm an Australian born Tongan, but my dad, as well as his family were living in New Zealand from the 1950s to the 1970s. And then they moved and migrated to Australia. It wasn't only until recently, sibling sort of unit had any sort of understanding about Dawn Raids, aside from like the record label in New Zealand, Savage, as you know, twenty. So I think because what happens is, your understanding of who you are and your people doesn't happen in afternoon special sort of lessons.

13:48KT: It doesn't happen in a neat little box, especially if the history of your family and the experiences and the possible trauma of your family isn't being shared with you. You're just seeing the byproducts of alcoholism every weekend. So I guess what I was coming to like sort of a loggerheads with is, I guess in some ways, if we were to look back at my childhood, there were sort of inklings about it, but a lot of experiences in New Zealand with my family, it was always played as something light. Mostly in the sense that,

14:29KT: like there were t shirts that would be made and Bebo was like a social media site that was very popular with islanders of like overstayer. And I would always see like the Tongan flag and the Samoan flag. Like it was worn as a badge of pride and a badge of honor to be an overstayer. And, you know, even my mom would make jokes and, you know, all of all of the moms and aunties just gossiping as they do. It would be a moment

15:00KT: that they would call the government and dob people in for being overstayers. It wasn't a traumatic sort of moment that people were being torn from potential sort of livelihoods or a chance at a better life. It was like, she looked at me funny in church and I called the government on her. Wild. So imagine imagine my surprise when I come to realize that the Dawn Raids wasn't necessarily

15:25KT: a happy thing. And there were people, maybe not my people, but people that look like me that got treated much more differently and definitely much less than a human in many sort of regards. So I friends and lovers am on my own journey where I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to heal from something that I guess, is barely even talked about or even acknowledged within my family. And I extend all of the grace and all of the love and poor Bettany splooshes

15:57KT: in your direction and we will get through it together, friends and lovers. Let's get into a little bit of the history just so we can get some of the context. And the reason why I wanna share this is because we love the listenership and the friends and lovers that we've met along the way. But I am conscious of the fact that a lot of our listenership is in America.

16:21KT: Speaking of America, shout outs to Country Boy that runs One Mic Black History podcast. I did also get a lot of information. He's got a three part series in regards to Huey Newton as well as a Black Panther Party and we'll come to that. Also Oti Mhmm. Country Boy called it One Mic because of his love for Nas. Fair play. There's your Belly reference. And we'll come to Belly when we talk about cinematography

16:50KT: later on. So we're talking about New Zealand, We're talking about the lovely place where everyone wants to go, Jacinda Ardern. We're starting to realize that maybe women should be leaders around the world, but that's a story for another day. But in instances where we cover Boy and Hunt for the Wilderpeople, we did talk about very specific issues that surround New Zealand, as well as Head High homelessness in regards to Maori and Pasifika is on the rise, well as suicide rates in New Zealand and also child poverty

17:28KT: as well. So that gets covered a lot. So as beautiful and as lush and as choice as a place as New Zealand is, like every country, it is not immune to any sort of issues. So just to give you some background in regards to New Zealand's history, shout out to Tom from History of Aotearoa. I beat you to it. I'm pretty sure you're still in the 18 for New Zealand history. So in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties, New Zealand experienced a major industrial and urban expansion.

18:03KT: It did have a labor market from The Netherlands and The UK, but it started to dry up. So there was a strategy to find two new sources, rural Maori to migrate to more metropolitan areas, as well as the Pacific Islands. So Pasifika saw this as an opportunity for jobs, education, a brighter future. Know, news they needed people in factories, specifically in Auckland, People from the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau entered as New Zealand citizens, whereas Samoans and Tongans required approval. And I think that also

18:41KT: covers the Bebo banner that I was talking about with the Tongan and Samoan flag about being overstayers. So essentially, it was a very loose sort of boundary because they needed the numbers. They allowed, you know, Pasifika sort of workers to come into New Zealand, and it was all quite lax. However, unfucking fortunately, white supremacy and colonialism rears its ugly head. In a nutshell, the white people needed to blame someone and some peoples and they blamed Pacific Islanders. In 1971, the Polynesian Panther Party was formed

19:20KT: in regards to the market. It wasn't doing as well. So Kiwis, everyday sort of Kiwis were losing their jobs. And again, they were blaming Pasifika. There was a lot of pressure to try and do something, to try and quell the powers, the brown powers that be. You know, the animated political cartoon that they had in the Panthers, the TV show? Apparently, that's real. Wow. Because I saw it in the documentary, Nevak, Will's niece, who's a journalist, she did a documentary and it'll also be in our show notes as well. But that was the actual

19:55KT: campaign ad with the angry brown person kicking the white people's butts. So so that was used as a political sort of ploy. And we talked about this in Total Control when we're talking about First Nations, you know, Australians in the fact that we don't even know if, you know, these politicians are racist, but they're definitely using it to their political advantage. There was also solidarity in sovereignty with the Maori people, and we see that in 1975 as well as 1978, claiming essentially ownership of the land, they should have already,

20:33KT: stopping development and that sort of thing. And there's also the Springbok tour, which doesn't get covered in the TV show, but essentially, everybody's heard of apartheid from 1990 to 1994. South Africa apartheid South Africa were invited to come and play rugby in New Zealand while apartheid was still alive and well. So the Polynesian Panther Party protested in regards to that. And then many years later in 1995, Nelson Mandela actually visited New Zealand Nice. Once he was president as well. Also, Desmond Tutu was around doing speeches and those that were organizing his tour had,

21:18KT: you know, connections with the Polynesian Panther Party, and they actually got Desmond Tutu to be a character sort of witness for Will 'Ilolahia. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that's one way to keep you out of jail. And I guess in a nutshell, because when we're again, when we're watching the TV show, we were kind of just following, not to the level of like Tarantino, a life in the day, but I feel like we were just following the characters without any sort of overarching

21:48KT: narrative that we were working towards. So I just want to remind, I guess, the both of us, as well as frame the conversation that we're going to have moving forward. In regards to the achievements of the Polynesian Panther Party, they were much like the Black Panther Party, they did model a lot of the programs that were set up. So they had homework centers where they would do tutoring, free meal programs and food banks, prison visits, as well as provide halfway house accommodation, forming a legal

22:20KT: aid book that would help Pasifika people to be able to assert their voices in regards to eviction, incarceration, unequal pay, and unlivable and working conditions, sovereignty of Maori people, which we talked about in 1975, as well as 1976, the Bastion Point opposition. In regards to activism, there were the Dawn Raids. So again, I guess just giving context for those that aren't familiar with the Dawn Raids, because there was pressure from the government to do something about those pesky Pasifika that were occupying in New Zealand,

22:56KT: the government and the police organized raids at dawn and to demand documentation to make sure that whoever was living in that house had the legal documentation to be able to live there, even though, as we pointed out earlier, they were pretty lax about it. There was also pig patrol, which I believe stood for police investigation group. And we also see that in the TV show as well, where they patrol the police just to make sure the police are conducting themselves to the integrity

23:28KT: that they believe that they are, as well as the nineteen eighty one Springbok tour. Oh. Yeah. So that that essentially takes us to today. The only other thing I wanted to mention in regards to history is Huey Newton. Again, go and check out One Mic Black History podcast. The Black Panther Party was founded in 1966, and that's pretty impressive considering how analog the sixties was and how widespread, I guess, the sort of influence that Huey and the Black Panther Party had. Right? Yeah. Measure kudos.

24:03KT: They formed the Ten-Point Program and this drew heavily from Malcolm X's nationalism as without the Islamic aspect. And I just wanna read it because although my Wikipedia glasses didn't tell me that it was this specifically, It does mention that the Polynesian Panther Party were inspired a lot by Huey Newton's ideology. So I do just wanna read this Ten-Point Program specifically in regards to Black Panther Party. We want freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our black community.

24:36KT: We want full employment for our people. We want an end to the robbery by the capitalist of our black community. We want decent housing fit for shelter of human beings. We want education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent society. Poor Huey with the critical race theory. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in present day society. We want all black men to be exempt from military service.

25:03KT: We want an immediate end to police brutality and murder of black people. We want freedom for all black men held in federal, state, county, and city prisons and jails. We want all black people when brought to trial to be tried in a court by a jury of their peer group or people from their black communities as defined by the constitution of The United States. We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. That's a good list. Yeah. Right. Something that has become increasingly aware to me researching

25:36KT: and, you know, even going back to when we're watching Judas and the Black Messiah, there is so much power in the connected effort to tear down imperialism. I don't know if that's a radical statement, but, you know, we see with the Rainbow Coalition with Fred Hampton and we also see it, you know, in general because even with Huey Newton at a Cuban rally where he met co founder Bobby Seale, and there were further protests about Vietnam, specifically black men that went out to serve in Vietnam

26:09KT: where they weren't even recognized with basic human rights in America. It's a beautiful thing when we all come together to find I didn't say common enemy, I said common love. Mhmm. Alright. Well, let's talk specifically about the show. I'm going to say some positives just so it it is acknowledged that we do love a lot of the aspects of this show. I would say I really enjoyed the cinematography in this show. I really appreciated the directing in this show, and I really love the music slash score.

26:47Oti: Yeah. Me too. I think in as much as I had issues with part of the of the storytelling, I think as a whole, and I think at the end of it, I was left content, and it made me want to know more about the subject matter. So even if their goal was more because you have to you have a line with this sort of shows where it's part entertainment and parts informing.

27:12Oti: I was, in as much as I had qualms with will and how it was told, at the end of it, was left to yearn for more and that's a positive in my book.

27:12KT: Well, my yearning for more was in regards to the writing. I was just giving compliments before talking about the writing. But

27:30KT: I think just going back on the music in this, I really enjoyed it and the lyrics really helped to, I guess, outlay the scenes that were about to happen or the scenes that were currently happening. And I remember watching the opening scene of this series, and I got really emotional because I could see my faces and the struggle that was being spoken of was very specific to my people. It wasn't trying to imitate hip hop in America, for example, it was very specific to

28:05KT: contemporary to the time as well. And I really enjoyed the music, but I do feel like the writing fell short because you have the strength of lyricism in the raps. And then in regards to the writing, guess I might as well just say it now. There was a lot that was being focused on that I don't necessarily care for. Do what you wanna do, but I didn't necessarily care about the love story between Will and Tessa. Tessa

28:38KT: was a real person. I it wasn't noted in the documentary whether her and Will had a little thing, but they were talking about a very young, potentially 19 year old, but a very young woman with a baby that was barely two. And apparently, she got scooped up by the police in her lavalava. So kind of, I guess, for other non islanders, I guess, sarong. No underwear underneath or anything, and the baby just had a shirt and a nappy, and they kept her locked up overnight.

29:07KT: And they flew her back to Samoa, they deported her on the first possible flight the next morning. Brutal. Yeah. So in regards to the love story, I didn't necessarily care for it. I also didn't care about the white people. Not not not not in that way, but just in the sense that, again, in the growing sort of tapestry and the solid penmanship that we see around the world, far be it from me. Can I have my racist white people have some fucking dimension? Is that okay? Because I guess the thing is because David Lange,

29:43KT: he was a lawyer that actually helped create that legal aid book. I feel like we only saw him like for maybe one scene near the end of the show. Yeah. Yeah. He's the fucking white person you should be highlighting, not in a Viggo Mortensen Green Book sort of way, in a white savior sort of way, but he was very helpful to the cause. And it would have been nice to focus on him a bit more. And, know, Muldoon was very much a caricature. And I think that's part of the problem. It's because

30:13KT: in the real world, you can have people that are well meaning. I joke about it a lot, but your grandparents might love you, but they might also be racist. Two things can be true. Right? Mhmm. They might be a great person to you, maybe not your ethnic friends. But that's part of the problem that I have because when you're in the real world, there's so much complexity and there's so much nuance. Whether he was a caricature, whether he was the best person in the world, the system

30:40KT: exists for him to thrive and decide whether he wants to help other people that don't benefit from the system. That's the point. Right? Yeah. So I guess from a writing point of view, I guess that's something that I didn't necessarily care for. In regards to the directing and the cinematography, I thought it was pretty cute, Gar.

30:59Oti: Me too. I thought Muldoon started off as a good guy in this because he seemed as if he was helping Will or he spoke as if he's eager to help Will. Yeah. In fact, the fast interaction they have with Will, I thought it was quite nice, you know. He gave Will compliments, you know, and I thought

30:59KT: But weren't they like underhanded compliments?

30:59Oti: I didn't think so.

30:59KT: I didn't expect you to be civilized, those sorts of compliments.

30:59Oti: I don't think at that time I took it that way. I felt like I was probably impressed.

31:29Oti: Not, oh, because you're a brown fella now, you know, I'm thinking love you or you can't do anything like that. I felt like it was generally like, oh, this is an intelligent person. Like anyone, despite race, creed, or anything of that nonsense.

31:45Oti: But it turned out I was wrong.

31:45KT: Or maybe, you know, maybe like you're saying in Total Control, like, maybe he was just a savvy politician and he's not going to cloak and dagger you until he knows whether you can bring value or not.

31:45Oti: And that's probably the the the most apt thing because at that point,

32:02Oti: I was still being super frustrated with Will and this is why we still go to the writing bit of it. You know, we if you're painting Will as this character and we know he's bloody flawed and all. Yeah. He at the start, you know, when they're with the bodies and then he he was like pushing people to go and do something. Yeah. Even a friend, one of his friends who was this deported, the Faustun. And I was like, okay. He didn't check his own privilege. Yes. I remember now. And he was because he was frustrating. He knew he has a fucking get out of jail free card. Yeah. But he didn't he didn't see it that way because he's like, I'm brown too. Yeah.

32:40Oti: Wow. You being brown does not fucking matter to the other people who don't have any connections or don't have bloody parents who are princes and have you know? Yeah.

32:40KT: And I guess just for context, friends and lovers,

32:53KT: Tonga is one of the only countries I believe in the Pacific that still has a alive and well monarchy and not not prince level,

33:05KT: but Will's mom came from a noble family and, you know, descended from a noble family and the dad at the time of the TV show and in real life was working for the British High Commission.

33:05Oti: Yeah. So his dad pulled a favor and he was out of jail and his friends were still there. Yeah. But his buddy got deported and he didn't want to go because he was gonna get his papers anyway. Yeah. And that is just I think that's when I was like, okay, this fucker needs to check his privilege,

33:33Oti: needs to understand he's not the same as the other people. Stop sniffing around pussy that isn't yours. Exactly. Not that pussy belongs to anyone aside from the pussy at He kept on pushing the envelope. He kept on pushing and pushing to the point where he didn't feel as if he was trying to push for good. It was egotistical. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I was like, what is this? Which is weird because that didn't get challenged.

33:54KT: It kind of did a little bit later, but I think maybe like Dimitrius kind of reminds me of Uli in Legend of Baron To'a. Like, because Uli kept having his shirt off in that movie. And I think they're trying to like give the same sort of vibe to Dimitrius. Personally, I will watch it because I will watch it. You don't need to bring me in with that but perhaps it's a way to get other audiences in, I'm not sure.

34:22Oti: Yeah, whatever rocks their boats, mate. I think to me, we focus so much on Will as the protagonist and I thought that other people within the chapter did more.

34:22KT: Thank you. That was also something I was gonna say from a writing point of view. If all of the time was expended on Will and he's the most frustrating character, what does that say to the building of secondary characters? Because

34:45KT: a lot of the other people did most of the work

34:45Oti: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And we barely got to see them do it. Yeah. Because either we're focusing on Will being a prick Yeah. Will throwing tantrums Using his prick. Will running away then doing silly shit. Like, I didn't understand the insistence on toeing that line if the end of it, you're calling the show the Panthers. Yeah. That's some big IP to name it. Should be more than just, you know yeah. Like, we we were talking about Judas and the Black Messiah. You know?

35:23Oti: Fred Hampton played by Daniel Kaluuya. You know, he he's not even the main character. Yeah. But in his scenes, he steals the show. Yeah. Absolutely. With Will, he's the protagonist, and I could not wait to move away from him so we can see actual

35:40Oti: story progressing.

35:40KT: You were hoping there was a Judas in this. Yeah. Arguably, it could be Ice. Probs. It's interesting you say rock the boat because the theme I have here is called don't rock the boat, baby. The waves of culture and religion. And I have two points here, Will and his brother Mo, and then also Melani and her family. So let's talk about Will and Mo because this was one of the most explosive episode watching experiences

36:16KT: I've ever had in my life. As a Tongan that always felt like I was on the outside because I didn't fit within what a brown woman should be in the Tongan culture, I found my communite in this. Also, all of the episodes, the numbering of different languages. And this episode was called Tolu, which is three. And I thought that was interesting because it focuses very much on the Tongan aspect in this episode. But what I wanna talk about specifically is Will had his moment of potential growth, but he didn't

36:50KT: he doubled down in his stubbornness and his egotistical narcissism because we meet Mo, his brother, who served in the war. Right? And we've spoken a lot friends and lovers in regards to globally around the world, how we need to treat war vets better. And also, we're never going to criminalize soldiers that fight particular wars because it's a bigger conversation than that. It kind of reminded me of both versions of the Wonder Years, the the OG Wonder Years and the current one with the Internet's Don Cheadle narrating.

37:27KT: But it it brings so much complexity. It brings so much layers

37:32KT: into the show, and there is there is more that I wanna talk about in regards to culture. But let's just stick with Will and his brother, Mo. What did you think about it? I think we all we already know how we feel about Will. I feel like we were both siding with Mo, but how did you feel about that? And I guess it's also they were calling each other out, bro, in the middle of a Tongan function and you don't fucking do that. I thought

37:56Oti: he raised good points, Will that is. Mhmm. Of course, there's nothing that Vietnamese people did to to the Maori people. Yep. You know, you had no they didn't invade you. They didn't do anything to you. You simply follow your orders and you go. Yep. And that's the nature of the fucking beast. But Vietnamese didn't do anything to Da 5 Bloods either, but Delroy Lindo has a quarrel. He had a quarrel. He he lost people there and that's, you know, at the end of the day, that's the nature of war. You are. But

38:26Oti: but he don't come and put that on your brother. And I think at the end of the day, when and and this is why we needed to do vets better. It changes people, what they experience there. It's fucking traumatic. Yeah. And when he came back, and for him to be told off by some uni brat who's not experienced fucking real life and he's still thinking he doesn't have privilege and taking all his buddy bloody friends out to do some risky shit without risk or without consequences. Yeah. You know, it's it felt very

38:59Oti: pointy. It felt very naive.

39:01KT: It felt very Samuel Jackson in Django.

39:04Oti: I don't think anything would feel like that.

39:09KT: But I get what you're saying because what he was saying, yeah, he's got a point, but do you have to be the one with your mouth saying it? Like, gonna be someone else? Yeah. It's not a conversation he has the right to even utter. Plain and simple. Where do you get off? Yeah. Where do you fucking get off? Because, like, if if Mo were to unfortunately die in battle, would Will still be beating that drum? He wouldn't. And that's the fucking sad travesty in the state of affairs that we're addressing.

39:40KT: And it was really frustrating, but I guess to just take it back on a cultural sort of lens, I it's funny because I didn't really care for Will and I got a bit I felt a way when I started to resonate with him, but I did feel when he was at the function and the way he was being told how to talk, how to act, that definitely triggered me in a baby sort of level because

40:11KT: a lot of it, and I wanna talk about Melani before we go into detail about this. But a lot of this, again, it isn't neat and it isn't tidy trauma because we I guess if you wanna just in a nutshell talk about history, something that makes me sick to my stomach even to this day is that sometimes us, and I will speak I'll say us to be inclusive, but there are Tongan people that have pride that Captain Cook labeled us the friendly islands. And that always sat unwell with me. That we had a

40:48KT: apparently a white best friend if in the history books will tell you that we shook hands and we were very amicable about it. He labeled us as the friendly islands because I guess we didn't try to eat him, but trust trust and believe if I was there, I would get my fork out. But it's that sort of subservience that kind of makes me sick to my stomach and I don't blame my people for it, but it does make me sad. But if you take the lens of being colonized,

41:19KT: if you take the sense of being waved a meal ticket, a better life in New Zealand to then go there and get treated disgustingly. And we don't have time friends and lovers. I've got time, meet me in the DMs, but we don't have time in this podcast. But even Pacific Islanders, like specifically even Tongan workers, Samoan workers, Fijian workers coming to Australia,

41:42KT: you know, all of this complaining about they took their jobs. They took their jobs. No one fucking wanted those jobs. And, you know, there's tangible evidence of that because when the pandemic hit, there weren't any fucking workers. Where did all the Australians go then? They didn't leave the country. If the Australians didn't leave the country and no one was picking the fruits, what does that fucking mean? They took their jobs. They took their assholes. That's what they did. But that's that's what's frustrating. And there's still unlivable, unpayable working conditions

42:13KT: for Pacific Islanders that come for the purposes of labor. Like, it's it's supposed to be a shining beacon to us. Like we're supposed to be grateful for those job opportunities where we get treated subhuman. And I guess that's the highlight that it's still happening today. And it's one of those things because we're layering all of this trauma on top of our identities as a Pasifika. And I always try to figure out because I never really feel like Pasifika have an identity as a diaspora. Right? You have family

42:50KT: in The UK, you have family in Canada. And I think it's quite fair to say to, I guess a lot of us that Africans do have a diaspora outside of Africa. Asian people have a diaspora outside of Asia, but I never really felt like Pasifika people had that. And I don't know how much of that is attributed to the Dawn Raids and is attributed to migration to New Zealand and forever feeling displaced. But I will also say that it kind of frames and kind of brings some understanding to the lightness

43:26KT: and the laughing off and just brushing it off your shoulders that my parents in particular had in regards to the situations that we've been given. And I think it's, I think we're kind of at the starting phases of our healing and not at a Ms. Pat point being able to laugh at our trauma. Like I feel like we haven't fully faced what we've been through to get to where we need to be, to have some sort of roots outside of our own indigenous lands. Yeah.

43:56KT: Speaking of being tethered by culture and I would say more succinctly religion. I wanna talk about Melani because this was such an interesting contrast and I love the way it was portrayed in this TV show because she had role of leadership in the Polynesian Panther Party. But as soon as she went home, she was that dutiful Samoan daughter that didn't question anything and could barely even whisper her own worth and identity in her household. And I just wanted to know what your thoughts were in that sort of dichotomy.

43:56Oti: I think it makes sense.

44:32Oti: Similar to bloody African culture, you know, you're expected to behave in a certain way at home and to be all humble and then, you know, you're only there to be bloody seen and not heard. That sort of mentality still exists. Yeah. So it's not surprising. It didn't surprise me one bit seeing that you know she could be out there and be the best leader and be so driven

44:57Oti: But once you get back home, you're put in that box and you can't do anything because that's the culture.

44:57KT: That's sad though. Yeah. And I think that also brings

45:07KT: quite a strong theme that we have in this show. A lot of it is potentially the parents are acknowledging that the conditions aren't great, especially in regards to a lot of the unlivable, uninhabitable sort of houses that they were given, right? Not being able to get like running water and stuff. But there's also a level of it could be worse or so many people I managed

45:35KT: to beat out so many people to get to New Zealand, right? So I don't wanna cause a problem. I don't wanna cause a fuss. And there was a lot of that that was happening in the show that, you know, friends and lovers, is a way to be steeped and to resonate in TV shows and cinema. I definitely felt that in this because what you cling to in regards to your cultural identity

46:04KT: is also what will suffocate you in your pursuit for freedom. I got two more themes to go. Oti, I have a theme called the white. But in the white, I wrote politics, police, abortion, public image slash radio. We've already talked about politics. We've kind of already talked about police. I just wanna give kudos to the show for addressing abortion, but I would also like to further say that I hope we get to a point in television and cinema

46:34KT: where we can address abortion within Pasifika and Maori communities. Yeah. Well, we kinda see that in Head High, but I would like to see that more. If the if this is the TV show of radical change, I would have liked to have seen a bit more focus on the individuality and the personal choices of Pasifika women and Maori women. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the public image slash radio. Did that feel a bit caricature to you, or do you think that was pretty much talk back radio branding?

47:03Oti: I thought it was branding on point.

47:06KT: Don't know. I think there was a part of me where, like, all of the all of the ingredients were there, but Melani continuing to call up and, you know, try and recite those facts. It felt like they needed to fit it into the show. I don't necessarily I didn't necessarily care for that sort of vessel. But, you know, they also had archival footage at the time and apparently that was the mainstream common sort of beliefs at the time. The last name I have has become a a fave in the For Your Reference household

47:39KT: between Oti and I, and it's in the community but not for the people in the community. And we're talking about Ice. Can I just say Buella who plays Ice brought the most depth? I would say he was my most favorite character in this show. Wow. Yeah. And you know what's interesting going back to Tim Provise and his pod his podcast interview with Nua, He was talking about his influences in wanting to create the Panthers and he cited John Singleton, Baby Boy, Boyz n the Hood and also Belly.

48:14KT: I told you that Nas callback will come back soon. Up, we'll do special. And and I don't know. I don't know if it was specifically Otto, but it was interesting to have the layer of Ice because we talk about it a lot. It is so easy to it was so easy to like blame white people. It is so easy to blame external

48:34KT: sort of people, but sometimes it's happening within the rooster coop.

48:34Oti: Yeah. Some people are just about themselves, you know, and that's just the sad reality of things or people are too swayed or easily swayed. Even in the case with, like, some someone like Bill O'Neal in Judas and the Black Messiah, you know, he's tempted to betray his people because he just doesn't want to fucking face the consequences of his actions yeah and as Ice he's just content

49:01Oti: running his block he doesn't care about the greater good he doesn't care about you know he's accepted life the way it is and he wants to be to take as much as he can out of it.

49:01KT: But can I just say if we're talking about like radical change, I could definitely see Ice putting dynamite at the police station?

49:01Oti: I think he'd only put it there if he he was told there's bags of money inside there and he'd be able to take it out. I feel like he's super

49:29Oti: I I feel like he's just another Otto and Really? Yeah. A masterpiece. Yes. And to me, those people are the lowest of lows. So there's no way I even enjoyed his character.

49:42Oti: I think they can all just get in the bin.

49:42KT: Is there no point for redemption? Because I felt he wanted a Kirk Franklin revolution.

49:42Oti: No.

49:42KT: But I I think it was a revolution.

49:42Oti: No. No. He

49:59Oti: just wanted to stomp the yard and that's all.

49:59KT: Wow. Thank you, Oti Columbus Short.

50:04KT: I don't know. I appreciated him because you know he's been through some shit, you know. It's easy to think you need to fight for everyone when you're Will and you have all of the privileges, but sometimes you're Ice and you're iced out on the street. Yeah. Nothing like

50:21Oti: self gratification.

50:22KT: Wow, indeed. I want to end on something and it's kind of what we ended on in Head High. Because while we were talking, we haven't talked about Officer Havili at all. Similar to Head High, it wasn't explicitly said, but with my fine tuned Tonganee,

50:39KT: it felt very clear to me that Officer Havili is gay.

50:39Oti: Yeah and that's why he was kicked out of the community. It felt very, don't say it. Don't you dare say it by name. Just make bloody innuendos. And that's why I thought the writing could be better. You're writing about bloody revolutionary stuff. Revolution as a culture. Make it norm. Make it the norm rather than us trying to cower behind some

51:06Oti: some politics or some fucking innuendos here and there.

51:06KT: Yeah. It felt very Red Cross. Do you want a revolution? Not you because you're gay. You can't talk about revolutionary for everyone and then just like withhold in the last second. But I don't know for for someone that lives with their whole full breasted chest,

51:35KT: it does frustrate me sometimes when punches are pulled, especially like you say in stories and events of radical change.

51:35Oti: Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you could say it didn't happen like that or they're trying to depict how the culture is. You already know how the fucking culture is. Yeah. And at the end of the day that you made a TV show, which is part entertainment, which is scripted. So push the ball, rock the ball, make things uncomfortable for people. If they deem so to be uncomfortable,

52:03Oti: I'll make that uncomfortable as the norm until it's not. And that's what I always say to Overtee.

52:09KT: It's always a safe space in the For Your Reference podcast, but it's not gonna be fucking comfortable because we are a space of growth and there's always growing pain. Thank you revolutionary friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference podcast. We're gonna finish up in a segment we call For Your Friends,

52:31KT: Oti.

52:31Oti: I'm gonna cross the pond over to Judas and the Black Messiah. I think if you wanna get more of your pant of leaves, you could get it about in that as well.

52:31KT: Oh, very nice.

52:42KT: I will reference Head High. Since our episode, it was announced that the show wasn't going to continue, which is very sad to me. However, if any sort of platform we have that we can afford to those that are in New Zealand, Australia, please go and watch Head High and maybe we can start our own revolution. If you would like to see

53:09KT: Oti in Kirk Franklin sort of flavorings on Twitter and Instagram, we're at fyrpod. Right. That's an email at fyrpodcast dot com. We're also on war. Mind your fucking business and leave people fucking alone unless you go in and help them broadcast. If you like to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.