The Passion of the Christ – Herod and heart

Full transcript of The Passion of the Christ – Herod and heart.

0:00KT: Peace and blessings, friends and lovers. Happy celebrations to those that are celebrating Easter. As you've read the title of this episode, we just wanted to give you guys a heads up. We don't intentionally mean to be sacrilegious, but we will be talking about the film, if it works as a story and obviously experiences that we've had as well. Go and check out our Prince of Egypt episode. It is still being downloaded very months later. So we do anticipate

0:31KT: there'll be a lot of fanfare, but we also wanted to give a heads up as well. And we don't really have any direct comments about racist ass Mellie Gibby's. Let's get on with the show. Come as you are with garment tearing anger as we have no choice but to blame the one dimensional scepter wielding villain. Get lifted with us this week as we explore Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ this week.

0:31Oti: Woo hoo.

0:31KT: Yeah. The woo hoo is on your side, my love.

1:27KT: If you've been a purveyor of the For Your Reference podcast for a while, you'll know that we've essentially been eating around the edges, you know, sharing a little bit of our experiences about religion. Also, you know, in the Prince of Egypt, it's probably the closest we've ever gotten to succinctly talking about biblical stories. And now there's really no hiding. We are going straight for the hallelujah, hallelujah Messiah. That's also a note to go and check out our Judas and the Black Messiah.

1:58KT: Welcome, welcome, welcome friends and lovers. Especially if this is the first time that you're tuning in to our podcast, A very interesting time, but I do hope however you regard us listening to this is more nuanced than any of the characters in this Also, this is a point to say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, or most religiously sermon, sermon, sermon. So let's talk about the stats of this film. And I cannot wait to talk about first impressions, but let's go through the stats. This film was released in February 2004.

2:33KT: Director Mel Gibson, writers Mel Gibson as well, as well as Benedict Fitzgerald. We have Jim Caviezel, who is our person of interest. So he's always playing a person of interest, if you'll pardon the pun. Monica Bellucci, as well as Maia Morgenstern. Apparently Jim was the only American casted in this film. Also in my non Bible learned research in the IMDb trivia of it all, This is one of the most highest grossing foreign language. So I guess that's how they got away with it. Like, Minari, for example,

3:10KT: to ever go out presale tickets pretty much more than Star Wars. We don't even know Star Wars after that. And speaking of, let's talk about the box office. The budget was $30,000,000, which makes a lot of sense to me, and I'll leave that when we talk about direction and filmography. A worldwide gross of $612,000,000 Oti.

3:10Oti: Woah.

3:10KT: That's a lot of tithings at Mel Gibson's altar. Yeah. Wow. All right. Well, are you ready? So let's get into first impressions.

3:49KT: Again, for those that aren't familiar, if you've listened to a lot of our episodes, you probably are aware, you know, that Oti was raised Catholic, I was raised Mormon. Christianity, in some cases, people won't say have any sort of overlap. But I guess let's talk about it because you did mention a lot that you have watched this film. And I guess I just wanna know what your experience was like being a part of the church watching the film and then now

4:17KT: watching it.

4:17Oti: I think wow. I watched this when it came out and I was kinda young. I was in the phase where I was questioning everything. And when I watched this, it was just wow. The aspects of it where I couldn't even bring myself to open my eyes towards. Yeah. I was like, man, this is this is this is some really serious go going on here, you know. And to the point where at the end of the movie, I just sort of felt

4:47Oti: relieved that it's just finished because wow. Yeah. I had not expected what I'd sat through. And I know the marketing didn't lie, they said that it was covering the last hours of Jesus Christ, you know. And we know what to expect when anyone says that. But the extent to which I saw and what they did, it was I think the things where you really cannot anticipate what you're going to watch and this was it for me. It was it was crazy. And watching it now,

5:18Oti: the scenes aren't as gruesome as I thought they were or at least as I remember, but it was still just insistent. Yeah. Pretty much the whole two hours worth, you know. Of course there's peppering about the Jesus teachings and parables, whatnot, but Sermon on the Mount. I know that one. But it's still compared to what we watched, it was just incomparable

5:41Oti: really.

5:41KT: Well, like Catholicism is one of the three like OG religions of the world. Right? And I think a lot of it is driven by like fear. So this film kind of really falls in line, if not the official curriculum, it's definitely not shunned upon either.

5:59Oti: Yeah. And I think there's a lens where we're taught about Jesus' last moments and there's this sort of painting that it's good, you know? It was meant to happen this way so that we can all be unburdened and to watch the gruesomeness of it. Yeah. I could not put those two together. I could not put the two together where we, as a people, are that bad that expose this guy. Yeah. Expose this guy to the amount of torture that he had to go through just because he didn't want to cross that boundary

6:35Oti: or he didn't want to conform to what the religious leaders have said, you know, and he was ruffling people's feathers and man, there's just a lot of qualms, man.

6:45KT: But that is kind of a dickish thing to do. So because people are so evil, they need to torture one person to absolve the sins. Like that's a really problematic

6:58KT: sort of logic, right?

6:58Oti: Yeah. And you know what? Like, in in Sunday school, you're taught about all this and it's also benign, you know? Like, it's not It's nothing. Yeah. Exactly. And when you watch this

7:11KT: Yeah. Wow. And it's like even even the I I think people get so used to because even in the Mormon church, this sacrament as well, like the symbolic of continuing your belief and your faith and your righteousness through consuming the body of Christ and the blood of Christ, it feels very paganistic. Like as much as Christianity likes to draw a very clear line between satanism and Christianity, it felt very paganistic to like partake of the body. But yeah, I guess like Christianity has great marketing.

7:49Oti: It does. What about your philosophy?

7:53KT: This is the first time I've watched it. Yeah. Yeah. I've never watched the Passion of the Christ before. And you cutely suggested it because of the Easter celebrations coming up. And yeah, because like even in the Mormon churches, there's a lot about the resurrection. There's a lot about the New Testament and the new and good feeling, the teachings, you know, it's not necessarily about all of the pain. Like the pain is there, but it's not fully focused on that. So I don't know. I think relatively

8:26KT: to history, you would regard Mormonism as like a more modern sort of religion. So maybe that's why it focuses more on the happiness of it instead of the OG whippings and lashings of back in the day. I feel like Mel Gibson also directed some was it Apocalypto or something with the Mayans? So I got confused on what we were going to encounter

8:50KT: in this film, but also I really didn't understand a lot of the storyline and the plot that was going on in this film. Wow. So, you know, as much as Jesus is at the centerpiece of like Mormonism, yeah, there were a lot of gaps. I didn't have the OG Catholic Bible. So Oti had to fill me in on a lot of it. A lot of things that you just knew off to hand many, many years and decades later, I had no idea about.

9:18KT: But yeah, I'll wait till we go into the official story of it. But you know, what else? It's in our third year, we're feeling frisky, why not cover Jesus? Why not? Let's talk generally about the directing and also the cinematography because I do have a couple of things to say about it. In our Prince of Egypt episode, you talked about how in Sunday school, you would watch some it was a Heston. Like you would watch Bible stories. Right? This kind of felt like that or something that you It would watch on History

9:53Oti: did feel like that. It didn't feel yeah. It did not feel big budget. It had this sort of the same gradings and photography style as a lot of Heston's work, you know? So the fact for me at least that made the difference back then was the marketing that came with it. Because

10:16Oti: I don't think at that time no one had spent 30,000,000 producing such work. So those a lot a lot of marketing, those posters everywhere in our church, those like

10:16KT: Really?

10:16Oti: Yeah. Those like a lot

10:16KT: For this movie?

10:16Oti: Yeah.

10:16KT: Wow.

10:16Oti: Maybe they did not understand what they was going to watch. Maybe they misinterpreted the trailer. But there was a lot of info going around about this movie. Yeah. So we were all excited. We were all eager and all hyped because a lot of the time we weren't expecting the sort of low budgets,

10:47Oti: home clocking sort of movie quality. But the fact that regardless of that, I think there are a lot of big names, you know, Monica Bellucci was in this despite just not having words at all.

10:47KT: Are you trying to Tarantino Margot Robbie this?

10:47Oti: Oh, yeah. The tea as well are the equivalent of Margot

11:07Oti: Robbie's feet.

11:07KT: Oh, nice.

11:10Oti: I agree with you. It did not feel like that. Like, it didn't feel cinematic,

11:14Oti: if that makes any sort of sense.

11:14KT: And I guess I I'm not very familiar with racist ass Millie Gibbies filmography. So, you know, looking at it now, you know, it was one of his earlier films, so maybe that's why. But he did Braveheart before this, which you've seen. Doesn't that feel cinematic? I would imagine a film like that would have to be cinematic.

11:14Oti: It does. Even Apocalypto is very cinematic. So

11:39Oti: I think it's just with the time and they wanted to go with more sort of-

11:39KT: Very traditional.

11:39Oti: Yeah. Very traditional to make it look as if to make the production set look as if it was being filmed back then.

11:39KT: This was the only time I wanted shaky cam, so at least I wasn't fully staring at every lashing he got. Yeah. Like, this was too much steady cam. Like, maybe I want shaky cam sometimes.

11:39Oti: Yeah, Like in the Bible, they said that he got some lashings, but seeing it like that, seeing the flesh just come out, seeing the guys just get winded,

12:11Oti: hitting him and still continuing. There's some tall calling assault action in here.

12:18KT: But I I guess that's that's part of the problem, you know, friends and lovers, whether we're talking about real life and the people you surround yourself with, or even just like on social media, they talk about echo chambers. This is a fucking echo chamber. This is the problem when you only surround yourself with people that reinforce your beliefs. Because that's really what it is. Like, I watching this, I would see why Christians would wanna feel like they need to be better Christians after watching this film.

12:48KT: You know, we love South Park. You know, we're not deluded to the fact that it is, you know, poignant in every episode. There's obviously some episodes that are still cringey even in the 2020s. However, the episode where they covered Kyle watching The Passion of the Christ is absolutely spot on because you cringe and imagine Kyle being a Jewish character, having to see his people being portrayed in that manner. It's I guess I wouldn't say it's irresponsible, but there isn't any sort of care beyond

13:25KT: the suffering of Christ. And I really do feel like it should have been called the suffering of Christ, not the passion of Christ. Because if you didn't know that Jesus suffered, at least according to the Bible, you'll know it now. Every moment, like you said, pretty much every moment was about his suffering. And I definitely wanna talk about the storytelling. Actually, let's just go to it now. You know, with all films, and I do regard this as a film, we talk about emotional investment, you know, deciding

13:59KT: very early or usually the narrative is dictating to us whether we should or shouldn't care about a character. Yeah. It was fifty straight minutes of this Jesus getting lashed and tortured in every way possible. And I didn't know anything about Him. This is like the intermediate class. This is not the beginners for anyone that wants to know Jesus. But I also say that that is very lazy as well because how many Batmans do we have? How many Spider-Mans do we have? Right? Some better than others. Andrew Garfield, I'm looking at you.

14:33KT: But even though there are so many iterations, even though we already know the story, there's still work to be done to build that emotional investment. And I didn't feel any of that. And don't say because Jesus, don't because Christmas me, don't just say because Jesus, I'm just supposed to care.

14:50Oti: I don't know. I didn't feel that way because going into the movie, had the history, I had the knowledge that I needed to know where the movie was starting off from and to have that emotional sort of connection based on my life prior. So I did not I did not feel like I went to this cold at the start Yeah. You know, when the first time I watched this or even now.

15:14Oti: But now having a more critical lens on it, I can see how you feel that way. But I still got I didn't still feel that, oh, I can't connect with his character because I didn't get a backstory as to why he is who he is, you know?

15:14KT: Well, was no dimension to him aside from the fact that he was there to be tortured by evil people according to the narrative.

15:14Oti: Yeah. And I get that and I get that. But when you're focusing on someone's last hours, I think they

15:40Oti: narrowed themselves in into being limited to what they can do, especially on Jesus' character's bit. You know, we did get snippets of him teaching and him interacting with not only Mary, but his disciples.

15:53Oti: And we got a sense of who he was in the movie as well, Not just the bloodied guy

15:53KT: No. But that happened throughout the movie. That didn't happen at the start. Yeah. It was him getting an inkling that he was about to die and people were betraying him or Judas specifically was going to betray him. Right? So we're meeting him at the peak and at the end of his career.

16:16KT: Right? So part of why I would say you would agree, part of why we love John Wick is because they brought that emotion in there. It wasn't just a slick action film where he was doing gun fu, Halle Berry fu, and, you know, car fu, horse fu down New York streets. Right? It was because they established the emotional investment that John Wick had.

16:39KT: Right?

16:39Oti: Yeah. Then again, I think this was I don't know. Maybe the target audience going watching Passion of the Christ would know exactly what to go in with.

16:39KT: Cinema is for everyone.

16:39Oti: I know. Cinema is for everyone. But I think with this movie, they had assumed a large bit of emotional

16:59Oti: baggage would come with you watching it.

16:59KT: I don't know why you're trying to audition for Paul Bettany's role in Angels and Demons. It's already come out, Oti. If you wanna lash yourself at my altar, you can do so, but that's already been fulfilled. You keep giving it allowances, but for me, it's still a film. It's still a story. We still need to have character development. You know, the qualms,

17:22KT: the burning raging qualms that you had in Judas and the Black Messiah, you should also have that here.

17:22Oti: Maybe so. But I think I just understood it from my sort of perspective and from my reference,

17:36Oti: I had everything that I needed while watching this regardless of where we started off with Jesus. I knew exactly what I had

17:44Oti: in my arsenal before going for it.

17:44KT: But but that's exactly the problem. That's what I'm saying. It's an echo chamber. It's just here to reinforce what people already love. And I guess if that's what you wanna do, that's fine. But then you're not necessarily experiencing as much as you really could. Right?

18:02KT: You love people through their hard times, through the trauma, but you also love them through happy times. There was really no moment when Jesus was having a nice laughter in the sun with His mother. There was none of that. Like even when He was teaching, you know, His parables, the Sermon on the Mount, it was still very serious and there was a lot of responsibility there.

18:23KT: And, you know, God forbid, far be it from me, but I would have liked to have seen more dimension from Jesus.

18:23Oti: Well, was a cute bit where we get to see Jesus

18:33Oti: and they talked about him inventing the table and chair with Mary, you know, and Mary being like, oh, this will never catch on. That was a bit fun and lighthearted for people.

18:42KT: If that's the if that is the go to and only moment of levity that you can find in this film, then power to you, my love. But it felt like The Shield intro. It felt like Uncut Gems. It was unrelenting torture. There was no light and shade. And I know we're talking about Jesus, but we're also talking about a film and we're talking about a story. And if this is the Nolan protagonist that we have, there's really no sort of conflict that he's going through, and there's no character development

19:18KT: going on with Jesus. And what I mean by that is things are happening to him, but because he's perfect, nothing really happens to affect who he is as a person. I know there are moments where he doubts and he asks God, why have you forsaken me and all that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, he's like Superman. Yeah? Like Superman is a perfect being, so like fights with him get boring. Fights with Goku get boring because he's super strong as well. Right?

19:44KT: That's what I'm saying. Like when you have characters that are perfect, it gets in the way of a story that can resonate.

19:51Oti: I get you. But then again, they're trying to capture the epitome of Catholicism belief. Yeah. And even not only Catholicism, but Christianity as a whole.

19:51KT: But you're the epitome of Catholicism.

19:51Oti: Because, you know, in Sunday school, we are taught to to to cite the Apostles' Creed which states, I believe in God the Father Almighty,

20:13Oti: creator of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born by the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and buried. He descended into hell, and on the third day he rose again from the dead. Pretty much, that is there's a lot more to go on that, but there's a lot to you know, that's our sort of that was the Catholicism creed of, hey, I sat this. I'm stating full well my belief on my systems. So I expect anyone

20:45Oti: in that realm going into this movie, they already have that connection. They already have that resonance and and and connection to Jesus before going to watch. And they're like, oh, man. This is some this is a moment where we don't really get to see clearly because it's all flowered in because of the significance of that event and what Easter means to people. Not exactly what happened. The the actions and the

21:10Oti: deeds that happened to Jesus. He was crucified, they put a crown of thorns in it, but what does that mean to the person? You know? We used to say, oh, he had a crown he had a crown of thorns, but as kids, you're like, yeah, cool. But when you see it on literal video and how what the fuck that would do to you, it's different. And I think that's where he magnified his lens on, which I don't think is necessarily wrong, but I can understand your aspect. But I think that also goes with the audience he was going for, maybe?

21:10KT: Yeah. But are you the audience? Because it feels like you keep trying to defend it. And why is why

21:44KT: is my skin burning after you were reading those verses?

21:44Oti: Oh, I could tell why, mate.

21:44KT: Are you trying are you trying to exorcise me, Oti? Mhmm. Where were the rest of the disciples? Because weren't there 12 apostles?

21:57Oti: They split after Jesus got arrested.

21:57KT: Okay.

21:57Oti: Most of them were in the crowd though.

21:57KT: So I feel like that further contributes

22:05KT: to to my feeling about the film. It was literally, let's just focus on the suffering of Jesus. Joseph wasn't even fucking in there because I guess we didn't wanna talk about immaculate conception.

22:16KT: I feel like they really try to build this narrative of Jesus being on His own, everyone hating Him, everyone scorning Him, and He had no one in His corner. Because if He had that many it wasn't as if no one was following Jesus at that particular time. But I feel like it was trying to further that the the the greatest sacrifice he met because no one was there with him.

22:16Oti: Well,

22:40Oti: he had to go through it alone. You know, it was his burden to shoulder. It was he and we saw how much he suffered for that. Even before he got arrested, he had trepidations over it. You know, he was scared. He didn't know why he had to go through this. And even up to the last moment where he said, why has God why have you forsaken me? Then I think he felt he felt that he needed a bit of strengthening to undergo through all that torture,

23:08Oti: which makes a bit of sense I guess. But he did feel quite alone. He was apart from the few women crying in the in the audience, having Peter in the background and then Peter disappeared from the movie altogether.

23:20Oti: It felt weird.

23:20KT: But it wasn't it when we were watching it, you were saying that he was supposed to deny him three times. So wasn't that just part of the prophecy?

23:20Oti: Yeah. He was supposed to deny him three times, but I thought he still was in the crowd somewhere. Mhmm. Albeit hiding, even though he was ashamed of what he had done. I think that also just fathered his strength after Jesus had died. And he he we we see that he wrote chapters in the Bible.

23:20KT: Man,

23:47KT: faith really works in very mysterious, painstaking ways. I do wanna talk about the other side because there is a depiction of Jewish people in this film and they have no choice because they're being portrayed however Mel Gibson decided to portray them. But realistically, Jewish or not, think of it this way, if you're sitting here minding your business, you already have established beliefs that dictate your day to day life and the way that you interact with other people and the way that you understand the world, imagine having someone saying, hey,

24:29KT: I am the real person. Come and follow me. I am the Messiah. I don't know if he actually called himself the king of the Jews or people gave him that title, But imagine you're just sitting in your normal life, minding your business, and you've got someone trying to say that they are the real person.

24:45KT: So you need to disband everything you know, everything you have, come and follow me. I will wash your feet.

24:45Oti: He never called himself that. That was all titles given by him by people. So I guess part of it and I think that also sort of symbolizes his responses to not only Pontius Pilate, but to

25:05Oti: Caiaphas, you know.

25:05KT: No. But didn't didn't he at least say he's the son of God or did he just walk around saying mysterious things and never claim the title? Come on. Exactly, sir. So however semantics, however you wanna spin it, he did elevate himself to deity. Right? I'm just saying, like, you know, the Jewish people were portrayed however Mel Gibson wanted it to be, but just imagine Jewish or not, you're living a life that, you know, is formed and dictated by your beliefs, you're interacting with your community,

25:43KT: and for the most part, you're minding your business, and then someone comes along, self proclaimed title or not, as the Messiah, you know, whether He said that or not, it's introducing a new way to be. And with Jesus is also the way into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, your established beliefs aren't good enough to go through like heaven. You need to go through Jesus. That would shatter a community. So in that sense, I get it. Like if someone

26:13KT: appeared out of nowhere and then apparently that's how you're supposed to be living, You can't necessarily blame, in this case you can, the literally mustache twirling scepter wielding villains.

26:25Oti: I get it. Maybe you think that someone coming in and performing miracles, it's not like he came and was like, mate, trust in what I said. He walked on water. He healed people. He raised the dead. At what point do you need to sit back and see that this guy is actually the real deal?

26:25KT: What you don't understand is religion is not a science. Yeah? Like, Criss Angel walked on water just for shits and giggles.

26:51KT: No. But what I'm saying is it like, religion isn't a science. Yeah? So when you say that you that that Jewish people didn't take on the fact that this was God's son coming on earth, that's just one interpretation, my love. Like, Christianity is the interpretation that that was genuinely

27:10KT: the son of God. But who is to say that that's actually correct? There are other religions that don't believe that's correct. Do you see what I'm saying? So you're speaking from the point of view that Christianity is correct, and I'm not speaking from that point of view.

27:24Oti: Fair enough, man. So I'm saying just because you don't believe that that is the son of God, what? That they get depicted as must mustache twirling villains? They are mustache twirling villains because they fucking crucified someone. At what point do you draw a line to someone becoming a villain? At what point do you say? They were given an option. Release Jesus, who they had qualms with Mhmm. Because apparently they were shaking their foundations, or release an actual murderer in Barabbas.

27:51Oti: Mhmm. And they all said Barabbas. Yeah. So at what point do you say, okay, these guys are fucked up?

27:51KT: If I cast Terrence Howard in a film and I make him the cheating motherfucker,

28:03KT: then he's gonna be the cheating motherfucker. Do you not understand what I'm saying? They were depicted that way in this film. It doesn't mean that that's what they were, even though Terrence Howard probably is that archetype.

28:17Oti: Man, you can stand up for Caiaphas for as much as you want. All I'm saying is based on the Bible and what we've read, we know Caiaphas had his issues, and we know King Herod, who was a fucking dickhead, didn't even find cause in in killing Jesus. He was like, what the fuck has this guy done? This is coming from King Herod who's killed a lot of people, and still Caiaphas continued with his agenda. Yeah. So to me, he's not a fucking angel,

28:42Oti: regardless of how he wants to be depicted because we know who how he was. It's like Bill O'Neal. Regardless of whatever fucking history says, we know his actions, and he's he he will be depicted, he will be thought of based on his actions alone.

28:42KT: But that's according to Christianity.

28:59KT: Maybe in Judaism, he's not seen that way. I guess it's interesting, and it's also good that we framed our reference in our first impressions, friends and lovers. But I would say claiming to be the Messiah or at least allowing your followers to call you the Messiah is worthy of scrutiny. So as much as I understand in the film, he was a villain. I also just wanted to add a little dimension that didn't exist in the film because sometimes we love layers. Don't we, my love? Yeah.

29:31KT: I do wanna pick up off on what you mentioned before. So let's go back to your best friend Caiaphas. Yeah? He brings Jesus to the Romans because under their laws, they can't kill him. How telling is that? That's very interesting. So we're really amazing, loving, just people. That's why we don't have this law, but we still wanna kill you. So let's go over let's go over next door and get them to do it for us. That was bloody ridiculous.

30:01Oti: Like, you want someone dead for blasphemy or whatever the hell you wanna accuse him of, and then, oh, let's palm it over to someone else. Yeah. So that we can wash ourselves and sit back and be like, we didn't kill him.

30:01KT: But you're still guilty. Like, even throughout the film,

30:18KT: so many times, no one was bending to his will to crucify Jesus. So like you said, he would go to King Herod and then he would come back. He'll just keep ping ponging until he got what he wanted. And there was a very interesting sort of moral quandary or a political quandary that Pontius had, because as much as he saw no reason to crucify Jesus, it was a numbers game as well to see how many people wanted Jesus to be crucified and how many people were in Jesus' camps.

30:52KT: So from what I could tell, at least from the point of view of the movie was he made a political decision, even though it griped of his morals, even though he did try to, in many instances, prevent this from happening. Right? It just got to a point where he needed to decide what long term, sort of effects it would have. So He did eventually decide that He would need to be crucified, but He had the literal symbolic,

31:20KT: but very literal washing of His hands. Yep. I have no part to do with this. It's like, just own it. Like, ordered it. No one would have been able to do it without your orders. You know, just fall on your proverbial sword at this point. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So, yeah, it it was a very interesting sort of scenario that Pontius went through. And I guess that was a lot that was more what I wanted to see in this film. I wanted to see more moral quandaries.

31:51KT: Like and also, let's talk about Judas for a second. Yeah. So really at the top of the film, and I guess unlike Oti, I wasn't doing extra homework before we watched this. So I didn't realize we were really getting into the last days of Jesus' life. I thought we were going to like, at least get to see Him, you know, prophecy something, you know? No, I didn't necessarily wanna see Jesus the teen years, but I definitely wanted to see Him, you know, going out and working those miracles. Right? It gets into cut later,

32:25KT: but it's pretty hard to enjoy anything after seeing him get tortured 3,000,000 scenes before. Right? But yeah. So it it happens very early at the start of the film where we see Judas, you know, betraying Jesus. And I I guess I just got it the other way around because I thought that happened at the Last Supper.

32:45Oti: Happened after the Last Supper.

32:45KT: Oh, okay.

32:45Oti: Yeah. So close to. And then he went to kiss him. Yep. Okay. Betrayed with a kiss. You'll get to know who Jesus is by my kiss. You know, and even when they tried to show his remorse at the end, I was like What's the point?

32:45KT: Yeah. Come on now. They had literally

33:03KT: well, even before I'm not even gonna say full on torture because it was full on torture from the first scene of this film. You know, but even as they were detaining him, he was already quite beat up at that point. So it's like, why are you coming now? Like, even when Jesus fell off the bridge and Judas saw him and they saw eye to eye,

33:25KT: even at that point, like, you've made your decision. Like, who are you? It's one of it's like one of those things when people try to convince other people that they're good people. You did what you did. Why the fuck are you coming back trying to convince us otherwise?

33:25Oti: Exactly. Turn by your fucking choice, mate.

33:25KT: It would have been more admirable if he just rode off into the sun with his pieces of silver. It's like, what what is it for? Like, if you genuinely felt so guilty

33:51KT: about it

33:51Oti: Write it in the first place.

33:51KT: Yeah. And I don't know where where they got these children from. I don't know if those are I don't know if these are Bible children or if that's I don't know. But that that was a lot in regards to Judas. But I really didn't understand, just in general. Like, I don't understand people that make decisions soberly or not, but are very conscious of their decisions. And then they try to go back on it. It's like, dude, you've done it already. What more do you want?

33:51Oti: Exactly.

34:21Oti: I'm with you on that. Just take your pieces of silver and ride off, mate. Yeah.

34:27KT: I wanna talk about the depiction of Satan in this film. Because I'm trying to think, you know, Mormonism doesn't really depict Satan. Really the only murmurings are when we're, you know, reading out Bible verses or gospel verses. But I don't think in art it is depicted. I usually just rely on Guillermo del Toro to tell me what Satan looks like.

34:53Oti: Catholicism. We we we talk about Satan a lot. The original sin from when he lured or

35:01Oti: corrupted Adam and Eve. So the the basis of having Satan in there is pretty solid.

35:01KT: The snake was Satan?

35:01Oti: Yeah.

35:01KT: Okay.

35:01Oti: Yeah. Yeah. So

35:01KT: It's it's been a while since I've been in the walls of any religious institution, Oti.

35:01Oti: Clearly.

35:01KT: But I lay at your altar every Sunday.

35:22Oti: But it's it's it's for every it's like having a a superhero movie. You know? You need a very strong villain. Yeah. And Satan plays that very well throughout the Bible. And he appears in areas where, you know, if you're trying to touch a Job with the most monstrous monstrous symptoms and and diseases ever Yeah. Like, he's always been he's always played a part. We always have him on the back of our minds, you know. We need to be good because mate, Satan is literally behind us waiting for when we fall.

35:57Oti: Yeah. So it's weird that when you talk about Mormonism, there's like very little

36:02Oti: paid attention to him. Otherwise, how are you gonna behave and be good?

36:02KT: But it needs to make There's no hell and Satan waiting for you. Because it's a new religion and they need to make room to convince you to go there as opposed to other Christian churches. But this is something so welcome friends and lovers for the first preview of the FYR curriculum, Theology 101 with KT and Oti. Mhmm. So this is what I wanna talk about because I don't know if it's also in Catholicism,

36:30KT: but there is the talk of free will. Like Jesus died so that we can choose to live how we want to live. I think they also call it free agency in Mormonism, but it's like, you have the choice to live your life because Jesus sacrificed his sins.

36:46Oti: But is it free will if we if there's repercussions of not doing what you want? If I choose not to live according to the book and I get punished, then how free will is that?

36:46KT: No, but that's exactly what I'm saying. And that's part of the problem that I have with not just religion, but also cultures

37:06KT: as well that introduce the big bad, the evil or the Satan, if you will. Because sometimes people are fucking assholes. Sometimes people are evil and the people are doing it, right? Having the presence of a Satan kind of allows people to distance themselves from their own actions. I didn't cheat on you, baby. It was Satan. I had a weak will and Satan tempted me and I fell on a dick. Right? Like, I just don't like the idea of talking about, you know, free will, free agency, and also hand in hand Satan. Because,

37:48KT: yeah, there are things that happen in our lives that aren't great. And I do understand that religion is important. And I talk about that specifically in Prince of Egypt, also throughout like, our episodes. I understand it's important, especially to move on with with really painful grief. That's that's one of the reasons why I will always see religion existing in some shape or form. On a lesser level, some people just need answers to things that can't be answered. And if someone claims they can answer everything, be wary, especially of those televangelists.

38:22KT: But it's also a way of controlling people. It's also a way of dividing people and causing wars. So I really don't care for religion, but even on a very individual scale, you do have Satan. It's like, unless it's Guillermo del Toro or Tenacious D, I don't really wanna see depictions of Satan.

38:39Oti: Oh, fair enough. But it is sort of, you know, growing up as a kid and being taught all this, we were just wary of Satan because we knew he was around the corner waiting. So you had to really devote yourself

38:52Oti: to read the Bible every day.

38:52KT: Fear. What I said at the start, out of fear. Exactly. Was there anything in the Bible in one of the later scenes where we see Satan in the crowd watching Jesus and Satan's holding like a baby. Was there anything in the Bible about that? I don't I've not read a Bible with that version in it.

39:15Oti: Mel Gibson is taking some creative freedom with that. Yeah. It's a King's Gibson Bible.

39:22KT: I wanna talk about Mary Magdalene for a second. Again, there's not a lot of fleshing out and I guess there isn't. There is no existence of fleshing out of any characters, including Jesus. So of course, Mary Magdalene wasn't going to get any. But this reinforces what I was saying earlier. We are literally focusing just on the suffering of Jesus. Because even when we have a scene later on about Mary Magdalene getting stoned, which I think is the well known verse of He who is without sin cast the first stone. Yeah?

39:59KT: We don't see her get stoned at all. Not to say that I wanted to see it, but to have a film that had so much torture in it, it felt very deliberate that we only wanted the pain on Jesus in this film. Yeah. Otherwise otherwise, you're still the thunder. So

40:17Oti: Yeah. I think it's just to show us how Mary Magdalene came into be into Jesus' side and pretty much being with Mary throughout. So she plays a big role towards the final hours

40:29Oti: of Jesus' life and even afterwards when they have to take care of him.

40:29KT: I don't know about in your circles or in your family or in your community, but Mary Magdalene kept being used as what a bad example is, which I would feel like would be the wrong thing to do because Jesus forgave her.

40:29Oti: Yeah. She was part of the camp, man.

40:29KT: Because I would have aunties being like, don't be like Mary Magdalene.

40:54Oti: Oh, if you if you cannot be like Mary Magdalene, who can then? Right. Mate, she was next to Jesus the whole time. She was part of the group. If if if that's not goals, then what is? True. Yeah. But Mary Magdalene played a major role. So at least we got to see her here, albeit just crying scenes.

41:17KT: I have a question. So there's the Last Supper, which is maybe not even just religiously, but it's very culturally relevant and the imagery in the Last Supper. Did they know at the time that that would be their last supper or was that more the name that was given after the event?

41:36Oti: They didn't know. They didn't know. Jesus said someone would betray them and that was to the extent of it. You know, someone would betray Him. What

41:43Oti: that meant, no one knew at the time. I think the Last Supper was just given after the fact. Because he was he was pretty much teaching them sacraments.

41:43KT: So he knew something was gonna happen, but he didn't know that that was the last last supper.

41:43Oti: No. I think he knew that he was going to die. He very much knew that. Whether he was ready or prepared for it, that's a different question, but He knew.

41:43KT: But this goes back into

42:05KT: free will again because if people can do whatever they want and Jesus sacrificed Himself to save people, doesn't that also mean that people won't be saved because they'll still be able to have the choice to do whatever they want?

42:20Oti: Maybe so.

42:22KT: There are some flaws in this RPG,

42:24KT: Oti.

42:24Oti: You know what? The thing that gets me and has gotten me since I was a kid was that when I went to a lot of the Sunday school teaching, I was told that I need to learn all this so that I could get baptized and rid myself of the original sin.

42:24KT: Which is Adam and Eve?

42:24Oti: Yeah. Adam So and

42:47Oti: you all I think in Catholicism, it's like you're born with sin. You're born You're not born innocent. You're born with one sin. That is the original guilt. That's why you're still guilty to this day. So you need to get baptized

43:00Oti: to get rid of the original sin, to be forgiven for the original sin, know. But when Jesus died, he was managed to wipe all the sins from everyone.

43:10KT: So even when you were born

43:13Oti: Yeah. Jesus died for all our sins. It should be including the original sin. So why was I needed to be baptized to get rid of it when, mate,

43:22Oti: old man JC did it for us?

43:22KT: It's probably the same reason why they're homophobic and transphobic. They they need no reason. They just say whatever the fuck they want.

43:22Oti: True. True. So you've were you taught about Jesus's death in Mormon?

43:22KT: Yes. We were also taught that we get our own planet. And I feel like I did enough years in that place to still earn myself even a Pluto sort of planet.

43:22Oti: And

43:48Oti: were you told what happened between the three days Jesus was gone or where Jesus was?

43:48KT: He just died and then we have Easter eggs.

43:48Oti: Wow. Man, you had the buddies in here.

43:48KT: It was a very Americanized

44:03KT: religion.

44:04Oti: Wow. Cool. Because we thought that he went to hell.

44:04KT: Really?

44:04Oti: To pay for all our sins.

44:04KT: Wow.

44:04Oti: So the three days it was him struggling and suffering in hell.

44:04KT: Geez.

44:04Oti: Because it was just not it was not enough just to have the physical

44:19Oti: sort of body and torture. He needed the spiritual death. Yep. And that was the torment in hell.

44:19KT: Let's talk about power hierarchy for a second. That's one of our favorite topics that we like to talk about. Go and listen to Umbrella Academy and also The Boys, we have two episodes of that. Because from what I understand, godly figures usually need to transfigure themselves like Moses and the bush, right? In Prince of Egypt, go and check out that episode if you haven't already. So I would assume that Jesus

44:53KT: was bound by His mortal body, so He probably wasn't as strong as He would be in His full form. Yeah? But when His body dies, wouldn't He go back to His full form so being in hell wouldn't, like the fire and brimstone wouldn't hurt him as much as a normal human? Do you see why my church leaders told me to stop asking questions and I got told I'm getting too smart for God? Do you see why I was a problem in the Mormon church?

44:53Oti: I think he had to go through that regardless.

45:22Oti: So it was more of a God direction than, oh, it being out of design. It was fully constructed that way.

45:30KT: And are we supposed to believe that, you know, even through everything Jesus wasn't perfect? Because there were times when He was like, why have you forsaken me? Why are you letting me do this? Even while He was dying, He's like, I thirst. But like, if he knew that this was the plan and he was fully dedicated, shouldn't he have just continued going?

45:50Oti: Well, he's like you said before, he's in his human body. So

45:50KT: Dude. You've answered your own question.

45:50Oti: Wow. We could go round and round in circles with these holes.

45:50KT: That's what religion does, my love.

45:50Oti: Mhmm. Mhmm. But it's it's it's weird because,

46:13Oti: you know, this was one of the favorite sort of stories that I read growing up. I used to be a huge fan of the New Testament and Jesus' teachings because I felt a lot of it indeed what we learnt with the Old Testament. You know, he came up with his simplified commandments to get rid of the 10 that was there, and I felt like he tried to move the world in a more understanding way. You know, like he's been human, he knows how it is and.

46:13KT: Alright, Superman. What

46:47KT: I will say about Jesus' sermons as well as Christianity, it is very effective to keep people oppressed, which we see with the Roman Empire and which we see with the most recent sort of colonization, not just through, you know, Britannia, but also throughout in France and Spain and even Portugal, for example. Because, you know, even within this film, he talks about, you know, love those more that hate you. Because if you only love those that love you, is what is that? And I'm like, mate, that's a fully loving fulfilling relationship.

47:25KT: That's what that is. Mind your fucking business and love the people that love you. That's what I say. Yeah. And I get it like Turn the other cheek, you know, not casting stones, like all of that sort of messaging as comforting as it can be,

47:40KT: it's also used as tools for those that wanna control and oppress people.

47:40Oti: Yeah. Like Give unto Caesar what Caesar's, you know, that was one that I had kept on spouting when I was a kid, while talking about slavery and what had happened and putting a lens of religion over it. And a lot of the time it was by design. Oh yes. You know, and it was just a way of making us stronger

48:07Oti: or some shit like that and, you And know civilized as well. Because we didn't know what we had on our land and our resources

48:07KT: Well, they did.

48:07Oti: Until other people told us.

48:16Oti: Well, they didn't say that, but Yes. We were called savages in textbooks. We were called savages in textbooks but I'm giving it a more religious answer than what we were given as, you know. They wouldn't say that, oh, we did that because we thought your gods are not were unworthy and savages and nasty.

48:34Oti: Nothing like that.

48:34KT: Be careful of the honeyed tongue my love, unless it's mine in your direction.

48:34Oti: Exactly. So it was just more that, oh, yeah, you know, Jesus didn't approve of it but at the end of the day, he said, it's alright or whatever.

48:34KT: Well, it's open to interpretation.

48:49KT: That's why you have so many different religions. Like even within the Mormon church, they were like, hey, stop marrying multiple young girls. And then some of them are like, lol, no, I wanna keep going. So that's why you have two big branches of Mormonism. Like it is up into interpretation. That's why there's not one fully consolidated religion around the world. Sure. Because people take whatever they want from it. But I guess let's end on a lighter note. You talked about Jesus being one of the favorite stories

49:21KT: that you read in the Bible. I think it's like, you can't choose the main character as your favorite character. So aside from Jesus, what was your favorite story reading in the Bible? And I'm assuming you're gonna choose New Testament.

49:21Oti: Nah, nothing in the New Testament.

49:35Oti: A lot of the stories that were taught that had a lot of teachings in the Old Testament. I think one of the better ones for me was, if not Moses, maybe even David. What about you?

49:50KT: I don't know. But I do appreciate the Old Testament because there really wasn't really any room for the new age interpretation. It was literally, is this your baby? If not, I'm gonna fucking cut it in half. Like, there was no there was no in between, there was no ambiguity. It's you do this and there's your cause and effect. No reading between the lines. Yep. No. So it was very straightforward.

50:17Oti: Yeah. And and it also sets the the precedence of having the New Testament there like, was some messed up shit in the Old Testament. Yeah.

50:26KT: George R. R. Martin got probably got a lot of influences from there. Yeah, man. Well, yeah.

50:32Oti: It's crazy because I have very little knowledge of African gods, especially in my tribe. I know we would try they tried teaching us a lot of those stuff especially when we were younger, but then they just stopped. Yeah. Which is weird. And we've all just focused on Catholicism

50:49Oti: and all that.

50:49KT: I think that's sad as well. I know more about surprisingly because I know nothing, but I know more about Christianity than I do about ancient Tongan gods as well. Yeah.

51:02Oti: It's sad because you know at the end of it, a hundred years from now, most of these things would be wiped out.

51:02KT: Oh, absolutely. Languages,

51:08KT: culture, way of being. And you know, like I said, I think in our Mystery Road episode, to not acknowledge colonization and religion playing hand in hand is really not seeing the full picture. Yep. All right, friends and lovers. I think we got lifted and I think I've slowly descended myself to fire and brimstone. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Reference.

51:35KT: Oti.

51:35Oti: I think if you want to delve into another sort of Mel Gibson's portfolio would be Apocalypto. I think that's one of the first movies I watched in the cinema, which is weird. So

51:50Oti: give it a go.

51:50KT: I don't know if that means you're hinting at me that that's what our watch list is going to look like. I have two references if you'll allow me Oti. In the Oti testament. I would like to reference Judas and the Black Messiah. Even though we had some qualms with it, it definitely executed the Messiah element better. Wow. Come and fight me motherfuckers. And also Prince of Egypt, because as learned and biblical as we are, we're also entertaining. And that is definitely one of my favorite recordings. How about you Oti? Mhmm.

52:26KT: If you would like to see what other biblical nonsense we get up to on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod.

52:33KT: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast

52:35KT: dot com. We're also on theology podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Amen. I am revolutionary.