The Odyssey – Bay of Pigs

Full transcript of The Odyssey – Bay of Pigs.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and it is another historical tale, friends and lovers. A historical tale of the rebrand of the Film Bro. It is I. I am the one who Film Bros. Friends and lovers, get the fuck out of the way. I am, I am a Nolan stan as of, well, when we watched it, but also as a part of this recording.

0:29Oti: Mm.

0:32KT: Ahooo. And that's what you would hear if you were listening to the sirens. before we get started, friends and lovers, uh, I would just love to tribute the podcast as well as this specific episode to our executive producer dog, Theo. If you've been around, even in the background, which I love, like in, in so many of our podcast episodes, you'll hear him tippy-tappy zooming around. Um, we recently had to say goodbye to him, so we just wanna tribute this episode, which I guess also comes, um, quite nicely, with The Odyssey as well. But yes, thank you for all of the love, friends and lovers, and this is dedicated to our kinky boy. Mm-hmm. Mwah. Hey friends and immortalized storytelling, which also includes hip hop lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast . You got your host KT.

1:29Oti: And Oti.

1:31KT: Set sail and defy the gods on a cinematic re-imagining of disguised beasts. Might be one in the room. Uh— Forsaken crew, might be one in the room, and Mary J's real love

1:47Oti: Uh-huh. Definitely one in

1:51KT: the room. Beckon the call from Hades with The Odyssey this week Woo-hoo-hoo. Or as the woke would say, booyakabooyaka. What's going on in the seas? I don't really care about the backlash, but obviously because we are, you know, living in the now, we can if we want to. Um, but let's get into our non-spoilers. I am very excited to not just do a full review on this, but just get back on the mic with you, my love.

2:24Oti: Mm. It's been a minute.

2:27KT: Shall, shall we get your non-spoiler? And I, I guess we save the final, no one will ever have a word to say after we're done. You're dead. Y- yes, please take us away, my love.

2:42Oti: I had not left a cinema thinking, "That's movie magic," until now. Nolan's The Odyssey earns it through brilla- brilliant craft, sound, performances, and pacing, so immersive the three hours pass like nothing

2:58KT: Shout out to Ludwig

3:00Oti: Yeah

3:01KT: Sinners previously. I'm pretty sure he was working on them, them simultaneously

3:05Oti: Mm.

3:05KT: And then Oppenheimer the year before. Wild.

3:09Oti: Wild.

3:10KT: And you know what's also wild and egregious of me? I'm pretty sure this is the first Nolan, not, and not even for review, just in general. I think this is the first Nolan we've done on the main podcast.

3:21Oti: Yeah.

3:22KT: Actually, no, I lied. We did Oppenheimer, but that wasn't a full review.

3:26Oti: Did we?

3:27KT: I, I Barbenheimer-ed. Oh, yeah, you did. Yes, yes. I, I Barbenheimer-ed myself too close to the sun. Um, okay. The Odyssey is an immersive insular epic that retains the spectacle of lore whilst translating central themes to be emotionally resonant today. All parts were to service what modern cinema can and should be, baby. We so back.

3:57Oti: Wow.

3:58KT: Like, I don't think I've ever seen a movie for the cinemas quite much like this is.

4:08Oti: Yeah

4:10KT: Nicole Kidman would be proud of the AMC Theater -

4:13Oti: Oh, yes

4:14KT: ad here, 'cause this is the fucking poster child. You don't know if you can classify the popcorn being food in the bucket. Not very soon in the US. Let's not get too political. Um, but yeah, absolutely, 100%. I felt alive. I felt alive. Shout out to Universal. We did have the opportunity to attend, the, the preview screening, in Sydney. Unfortunately not Melbourne, which is where the real big boy IMAX is. Um, hopefully, maybe not in this run, but I'm sure they'll put it back, in IMAX, and hopefully Oti and I can find our way in Melbourne to watch it in the big boy IMAX. But, I guess before we actually get into the film, obviously we loved this film. but I, I guess generally before we even talk about that, there was a talking piece about influencers not being invited into the screenings. I have a lot of thoughts, and un-fucking-fortunately for all of you friends and lovers, you're gonna hear my thoughts. But fortunately, I, I'm going to give the floor to Oti.

5:16Oti: As a bad thing?

5:18KT: So, so, so the, the news piece, I guess you could say was neutral. It was just that Nolan, I think it was Nolan, but Nolan/team/studio are not going to be inviting influencers to the screening. I, I, I don't know if we need to break down definitions of what we think, but I'm sure that will weave into our thoughts. But I just wanna hear your thoughts on, you know, we, it's, we've been, it's been nice enough, we've been invited to media screenings, preview screenings, et cetera. like did you have any thoughts on it? Were you neutral on it? Did you care?

5:53Oti: Didn't really care. Is, is it a slight on, oh, influencers aren't there so that—

6:00KT: Like the real, qu- the quote unquote real,

6:04Oti: um— Or tap, tapping this so it'll have favorable reviews prior to.

6:10KT: Personally, so, so w- without having, 'cause I didn't, like as you're saying, I didn't dig deeper into it. I just don't like people shitting on influencers. And I think, like i- in a, in a c— I think in a complimentary way, I do feel like we, as we exist, I've, I see us as predominantly podcasters over, you know, cutie gal social media sort of thing, only because I don't have the skill to do that. I don't have the time. I don't have the patience. But I don't think influencers are necessarily a bad thing. People love drive through for fast food— And I'm not saying that as a derogatory thing. People don't want to, don't care to. People don't have the time. So yeah, people are babies and they wanna be spoon-fed. What's the next girly pop, hot, hot gay, um, hockey show I need to watch, right? People don't have the time. People don't care. People don't wanna have layered conversation on film. They just want that, Tamagotchi laboo-boo Dubai chocolate, like telling you what the next thing should be. So in that sense, like, influencers make sense to me, and I don't think it's a bad thing that influencers exist. I just don't care for the snobbery around Oh, haha, influencers aren't being in- invited. To me, that's mean, personally. And I also would say, like shout outs to Rotten Tomatoes and, you know, other bodies as well as like Oscars So White, for example, even the Emmys, even the Grammys. Like the way that art is being consumed and those that have trusted voices is expanding, right? From the Oscars and I guess specifically for us for Rotten Tomatoes, by them expanding the critic or the publications to include podcasts, it actually allows for more voices, more diverse and more succinct and specific voices to be a part of that tomato meter, for example. So we definitely wouldn't have made it in traditional media spaces, and maybe in that sense, part of the influencer would lend to that. You know what I mean? So I just don't like when people get weird about it, 'cause it's like, do you wanna gate keep media stuff? That doesn't seem fair either. Or at least then you're just gonna get the crusty voices in the room.

8:38Oti: Mm. Okay. I, I didn't really think too much about it, didn't even know it was a thing.

8:45KT: Man, if you were the bard— I did not the Odyssey would be five minutes.

8:47Oti: Yeah.

8:52KT: but yeah, uh, i- is there any. Well, I guess we love Lupita. Uh, I don't know if you wanna lay any love. I don't, I don't think we need to direct any, any, attention to all of the hate, because I'm not, I'm personally not seeing it. I'm only seeing people love the film.

9:07Oti: No, I think she was good as well as, as Helen of Troy.

9:10KT: No, I just mean, did you wanna comment on the commentary? 'Cause I'm not interested in—

9:14Oti: Nope Not giving voice to that shit.

9:16KT: But The Odyssey, highest grossing for Nolan—

9:20Oti: Mm

9:20KT: uh, for his opening weekend. Uh, so before we actually get into, uh, you know, the actual narrative of the film, it's been really fun watching, uh, interviews, especially Nolan's Daily Show, uh, interview, because he actually it was actually really cool hearing him talk about his film process. Friends and lovers, I don't know. I, I, I don't know if you would wanna commit to a Nolan, uh, reference degustation where we go through his films next year. But what I will say, I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a Nolan gal until this film.

9:56Oti: Mm.

9:57KT: I love Nolan specifically for this film. he's always been able to do visual spectacles. He always have, you know, he plays with time or, you know, that sort of perception But this, this was really where he was cooking. in this Daily Show interview, he talks about how he never really likes to define the experience. I think Memento was. His brother wrote a short story, and I think it was Memento.

10:24Oti: Mm.

10:24KT: And then he, you know, it became a screenplay and a film. and I'm pretty sure it was Memento where he said at a Q&A, someone had asked, you know, pr- similar to, like, Jordan, uh, Jordan Peele with Get Out, like, their theory and what do you think it is, and Christopher Nolan answered it. And the brother was like, "Yeah, you gotta, like, you gotta stop telling people what you think." Not in a bad way, but it's like once the film is made, it's the audience, you know, it, it, it goes into their realm. Um, but when Nolan was talking about h- how he approaches film, he maps out the narrative structure, which is such a horny thing to say for my ears and eyes. he does, uh, he does, uh, the nonlinear structure does appeal to me, uh, to him, which isn't necessarily very horny to me. Um, but it was really interesting hearing him talk about his process of whatever people leave to interpretation, and that's the first thing that I wanna come to, for us reviewing The Odyssey of And it's not necessarily just Nolan's adaptation, but it's just The Odyssey in general, how much of it was real.

11:35Oti: Mm.

11:35KT: So we are leaning on our King Daddy Nolan. It doesn't matter what the truth is, and we're relying on our thoughts, feelings, and thinkings. So for you, my love, you know, we, we have a rich three-hour tapestry of, you know, a, a, a man, some might say he was absent from his familial duties But, you know, he was on a 20-year adventure, and a lot of, a lot of wild shit goes down. Keeping in mind that Nolan said he doesn't necessarily like to define the experience and let the audience let it sit with them, and regardless of whatever the text they are, shout-outs to Tama-i-Hoki of Aotearoa, we're not talking about historical accuracy. But in experiencing the film, my love, how much of it do you think was real, and does it matter?

12:32Oti: I don't think it matters— I don't think it matters at all but how much of

12:34KT: Do you think it was all real then from that point of view? I thought it was

12:36Oti: all real.

12:37KT: Okay.

12:37Oti: Regardless of whether it was imagined or not, it's still, it doesn't detract from the fin- from the story.

12:46KT: Mm.

12:46Oti: So whether you take, oh, what I was looking at was, uh, is it Athena or was it a kid or, it doesn't matter.

12:54KT: Interesting.

12:55Oti: To me, it doesn't.

12:57KT: Okay.

12:57Oti: Because at the end of the day, you still get the same learnings at the end.

13:01KT: Being?

13:03Oti: Dope movie.

13:07KT: Wow, the film really would've been five minutes.

13:14Oti: How much of it was real?

13:16KT: That, well, I think the first thing we can knock out is he avoided his wife for 10 years, and there was a beautiful lady on an island. He's

13:26Oti: probably got some families with Calypso out there.

13:30KT: You know, she was very distracting as Calypso.

13:35Oti: How so? As in— Well— Charlize the actor?

13:38KT: Charlize was just Charlize.

13:41Oti: Mm.

13:41KT: You know how people say Denzel is Denzel? Charlize was just Charlize in this film, and for some reason, I don't, I don't recommend it for everyone else, but her wearing those, those, those nets and, and— the little rags. It's a fucking Dior ad. Like it didn't

13:57Oti: You expected her to pull out a Botty Dior, bring out your—

14:03KT: Like, I guess she's just breathtaking. I, I, I guess it's like the Calypso god— not the old god. Like maybe Gina Prince-Bythewood took a, took a break from, um, Blood and Bone to come and shoot that commercial in the film. I don't know.

14:17Oti: Oh, casting your mixed sister Charlize over there?

14:20KT: You better stop it. Sure. You be— So you're taking the, the, the, the race hate out of this narrative and you're putting it in the other one. Fine. Fine. how much of it was real? I am very big on literary devices. I am very big on moral quandary cautionary tale, and I was, I wouldn't say I was the first, but I would say it was documented very early in, well, as soon as I watched Game of Thrones, it is documented that I was able to make a correlation between the savior complex of Daenerys— To slavery. Harumph. She got them to all speak up, and once their necks were up, they were sliced off. Harumph. And then she ran off on her dragons. Harumph I, I need to u- utilize the soundboard. Am I wrong, though?

15:14Oti: You're not

15:14KT: wrong. But my point is, I do find a way to ground very fantastical themes. So from that point of view, I feel like And e- especially when a lot of it was him forsaking the gods, fucking up, essentially. 'Cause why would you. Like, they're, they're the, they're the biggest guys in prison. I don't know why I'm putting gods in prison, but, like, why would you fuck with that?

15:38Oti: Well, who's being Kratos out there?

15:40KT: Well.

15:42Oti: Fuck the gods.

15:44KT: No, I think he turned into the sun with the little rock and the arrow.

15:48Oti: Mm.

15:48KT: so I don't know, without being sacrilegious to the Greeks out there, I don't know how much of it would've been real, but back to the, I guess the, the two-hander of the question, I don't think it matters because it really is his character development. So whether, whether him chowing down on the lotus was a euphemisms for Charlize as Therons, who knows?

16:14Oti: Probably was.

16:15KT: He was faithful the whole time.

16:20Oti: They sort of fell in love with each other. He just fe- didn't think that he, he could give his own heart, heart for whatever reason. So it's not like he. They didn't show it, but bruh, they admitted love.

16:32KT: I don't think, and this is a Russ Hanneman, uh, Sil— Silicon Valley welcome, friends and lovers— Rest for us it's called, for your reference. Yes. Thank you. I don't think Nolan fucks. As a director, I don't think he fucks. I don't think he's Scorsese, where he just discovered boobs in, The Aviator.

16:49Oti: Calling all mammaries.

16:50KT: The mammaries. What the fuck, bro? so I don't think he's like Scorsese, "I just saw a boob." Like, I don't think he's that level, but I don't know if Nolan fucks because. Or he's not a real lover. He's not a real yearner. He's not a real eater because i— I didn't get that, unless we're saying it's an acting thing, I didn't get the chemistry between Odysseus and Calypso. It kind of felt like she was pining after him. and then there was

17:18Oti: a pa— She was, though. That's the point.

17:19KT: But there was a part of me that was wondering if it was, like, PG, and I think one of our friends and lovers did message me asking can they take their kids, and I'm like, "At first I realized it wasn't that sexual," and then he had to remind me how fucking gory this movie is. So maybe Nolan doesn't f- fucks, as in, in a, a quote. So friends and lovers, uh, comment down below, like and subscribe if you think Nolan fucks. Cine- cine- cinematically. Cinematically, 'cause we're not perverts, right? but I would say it didn't matter whether any of it was real. I think it was more following the journey and the deep regret and sorrow that he had.

18:01Oti: Did it seem that he had regret, though?

18:04KT: But—

18:04Oti: You say deep re— Or you think

18:05KT: he was just tired?

18:05Oti: You, you say deep regret and sorrow, but it didn't come out to me as deep regret and sorrow. It came to me as him running away from something that he doesn't really wanna remember for reasons known to him, where

18:21KT: it's— Okay. W— Okay. Let- let's set the timeline. When you're say running away, are you saying Troy? Are you saying when they hurt our poor Cyclops?

18:31Oti: No, from when, uh— Polyphemus he, he got to Calypso and they just— Oh,

18:36KT: by that point. Yeah, by that— Well, by, by that point he lost everything, brother. Like, at that point in the story—

18:41Oti: And that's what I'm saying he lost everything You said he, he was, he, he felt deep regret, and I just didn't see it. It didn't come through to me as deep regret on his part. Yeah,

18:50KT: you're right. He just, he just. Yeah. He just didn't take accountability.

18:55Oti: Calypso gave me more deep regret of, "Man—

18:57KT: Keeping

18:58Oti: him there I— I've been looking after you, fell in love with you, and now you've got your compass— Bum

19:02KT: and now you wanna..." Sorry? He's a bum.

19:05Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Men do that

19:09KT: He dumped his family, uh, and e- didn't even full- love Calypso fully. That's rude. Mm-hmm. Getting down on a lotus. I think that's what Miguel and Wale were saying when they said lotus flower bomb.

19:22Oti: Yeah.

19:23KT: I think Nolan knew we were gonna do a full review, 'cause I feel like every reference we're making coincides with the way he told the films. Um, I wanna get into talking about how much of it is real, uh, and whether it matters. The next theme I wanna get into is angering the gods. Like, why would you ever? Like, we have Zeus, we have the, the supreme king of the gods, big man, top dog, ruler of the sky, associated with lightning. And it was mentioned quite a few times, you know? And I think we hear this even in modern context of, like, treat people the way you would like to be treated. You know, if, if people have less than you, don't treat them otherwise. And that was very much the ethos in this film, and I don't think Odysseus gave a fuck about anyone, including his family. Uh, it was just interesting of how Actually, actually, let's, let's take this morsel off the shelf and, and let it ruminate in our mouths, my love. I thought it was quite interesting that there was a sense of remorse, and even from a storytelling point of view, an attempt to illustrate how fucked up it is to go into someone's land and rape and pillage and plunder. I didn't expect, I didn't, I, I didn't expect it of Nolan and, and if you're tackling The Odyssey as it is, because there's already so much to achieve, I didn't expect that. But you know what? I respect it.

21:13Oti: I respect it too. '

21:14KT: Cause in, in Vikings, they, they didn't give a fuck, and they didn't try to make them feel guilty about pillaging people. So I guess that's more what I'm saying. Did you, were you, uh, I guess, surprised or, or taken aback or, or impressed or confused as to why they had that lens? Like, I feel like Odysseus had more of a moral quandary than Oppenheimer did in his movie, which is wild. Mm-hmm. But I, I thought it was interesting. Like, I wasn't expecting it, but I was like, "You know what? Respect to you, Nolan."

21:45Oti: Yeah. Uh, then again, it, it goes, it ties it to. Y- you know, when we watch, what's the, with the tiger in the boat?

21:55KT: Life of Pi.

21:55Oti: Life of Pi, where it w—

21:57KT: Richard Parker it,

21:58Oti: it was real or not real, right?

22:00KT: Mm.

22:01Oti: At the end of it, be it whatever he experienced, and you could also tie it to the gods. Are they real or not?

22:08KT: Ooh. It, it, it's— You're not going to Greek heaven. I am with my loukoumades.

22:16Oti: Troublesome waters. Hey, it's just the time of the year. Waters be roughing.

22:21KT: Hey, yo.

22:25Oti: You could say to a lot of the different things that it comes to, but with the Circe aspect of it.

22:31KT: And— That's the real one to you?

22:34Oti: Not. Because that's where we get to see'Cause w- we still don't get the Athena angle with Ody- with Odysseus at this point, because he's still getting those visions and having a chat with Athena. But you get a sense of, "Oh, my men aren't that bad. They're just trying to do X, Y, and Z. We know you've been hard," and all that. Mm. A little bit of more introspection until where you get to the point where he, you know, they storm the. Take over Troy and all that.

23:12KT: Yeah.

23:14Oti: And then he feels, "Okay, what the fuck is going on? Why..." Like, he. You knew you wanted to go and invade.

23:23KT: Yeah.

23:23Oti: And you know what war is. It's not like he's never been to war before that point.

23:28KT: Yes. Also, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. I was just so interested in hearing us chat, and I forgot to say spoiler, but, uh, as if I'm not sitting on the mic. But yes, spoiler, friends and lovers.

23:38Oti: Spoiler. Um, And this is where his journey is— I can get that when you go to war and you witness stuff, you can always get that Chris at Michelle's, uh, epiphany—

23:53KT: Mm

23:53Oti: where

23:54KT: you're like— See, Nolan did this for us.

23:59Oti: We're like, "Oh, my word, what the fuck am I doing? Look at this, guys killing kids, killing everyone indiscriminate."

24:06KT: Yeah.

24:06Oti: Where he's like, "I'm checking out from this."

24:10KT: Yes. And you know what? It's doing that Vivica A. Fox, uh, Kill Bill, where it feels like it happened at the start, but it was actually later, but they wanna kill her off at the start of the movie. Spoiler, I guess, friends and lovers, but if you're following our podcast, we did cover Kill Bill already. because yeah, you're absolutely right. 'Cause my thing is like'Cause I think that was, like, when they were overlaying it near the end of the film. That's why, like, I turned to you and I was like, "What, what the fuck did you think this is?" Like, you know you're going. We're going there with weapons, not with Care Bears. Like, what did you think you were going to do, including to all the little kids and the women? What do you think your soldiers are doing to the women?

24:50Oti: Well, it wasn't until, you know, the mix-up, uh, uh, Athena died. That's why it's like, "Bruh." We've gotta, we've gotta change the way we live. Can't do this

25:00KT: I just realized we have, we have the king god— of, of, of Pangea, Gondwana over here. but I did, I did wonder because there was even a moment. And because it is non-linear, it is quite interesting the way things flick back and forth. Um, but there was e- even a moment where they went onto an island. Um, shout outs to Himesh—

25:24Oti: Mm

25:24KT: Patel. Very good.

25:26Oti: Did you sort of. I, I thought, sorry, this is about, I, I was thinking of, Bait with our— Riz

25:34KT: Ahmed Riz Ahmed

25:35Oti: another Brown boy. Yeah. 'Cause Himesh was supposed to be the other Bond.

25:40KT: Yes. Okay. You saved yourself. I thought you were just saying, "Quick, emergency Brown boy button, Brown boy button." 'Cause I was like, that's Dev Patel, but I get you. I was like, where's Riz? Um, Himesh, uh, and Danielle Deadwyler.

25:58Oti: Yeah.

25:58KT: X Files.

25:59Oti: Yeah.

26:00KT: I feel like Ryan Coogler and Nolan have shared custodies—

26:03Oti: Mm.

26:04KT: of the Himeshes and the Ludwigs. but there was a moment where Odysseus was like, "I thought you was supposed to follow Zeus's law." It's like, no one knows. No one gives a fuck about your gods until you, like, plunder them, and you make them believe in your gods.

26:21Oti: Yeah

26:22KT: That's called something else, but we'll get to that another day. Um, but the Zeus's law was quite interesting 'cause it, um, man gotta have a code essentially. Mm-hmm. The way of friends and lovers. Um, a modern-day Odyssey. You know what? Maybe it is. Who's made the correlation? Because McNulty at the end in the last seasons, he was doing some Odysseus measures.

26:44Oti: Rest in peace, Michael K. Williams.

26:46KT: Rest in peace. Uh, but yeah, Poseidon, I wanna talk about Poseidon a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, we have Polyphemus—

26:56Oti: Mm-hmm

26:56KT: otherwise known as Cyclops.

26:58Oti: Mm-hmm.

26:59KT: shout outs to Billy. We love Billy. I heard he's had his third watch, including one with his beautiful, lovely Greek family. Uh, he was also sending me more information about the lore. Uh, but for Cyclops, for this scene, it was so interesting 'cause you can see massive, like if. There are more behind-the-scenes photos being shared, and there's, like, a massive puppet because Nolan is, is, tries to be as practical as possible, and it was very cute because he confirmed, I think in a Q&A, that he is inspired and he loves Guillermo del Toro and the way he does his world. So that inspiration, like the design— Oh, cute for Cyclops was really cute. people were talking about how it's not historically accurate or the, like the older films of Cyclops look better, and it's like, what are we doing here?

27:49Oti: I did not. You know what? What,

27:50KT: what is this? What, what, what's going

27:52Oti: on? The Odyssey was never part of our curriculum. We never really studied Greek gods at all. Too busy getting oppressed by the English anyway.

28:00KT: Oh, I thought you were gonna say too busy worshiping the African gods. And that. Okay.

28:04Oti: So it was never really a thing.

28:07KT: Yeah.

28:07Oti: So I never really bothered reading the book.

28:10KT: So they're all white and British to you. Greeks were white and British according to the films you would watch.

28:14Oti: Pretty much everyone outside who's not Black.

28:19KT: Fair. Fair. Tendeyi?

28:23Oti: So— by the time we get th- they're in the cave and Cyclops gets introduced, I was like, "What?" 'Cause I thought I was imagining my own things.

28:32KT: You didn't think it would be so fantastical?

28:34Oti: I did not think it would be so fantastical.

28:35KT: Mythological? Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. Interesting. Interesting.

28:38Oti: So it, it was a shock to the system. I was like, damn. And I thought it's gonna de- detract from everything that's gonna come after—

28:45KT: Yeah

28:46Oti: just because of, oh, so we're introducing all this mythical creatures, then— When I felt the movie was quite grounded up until that point When

28:55KT: the mythical creature all along was man.

28:58Oti: Mm, mm.

28:58KT: Take off your disguises, Oti. Fucking loved Man. But g- going back to Polyphemus and Cyclops, um, I think that was the first moment where I was like, "Fuck Odysseus."

29:10Oti: Mm. "

29:10KT: Fuck Odysseus, fuck Ithaca as a record label and as a motherfucking establishment," 'cause the way they treated him was very rude.

29:20Oti: Well, he was eating them, to be fair.

29:23KT: Why were they in there in the first place? To try and eat the sheep, and the sheep were his friends.

29:27Oti: They weren't trying to eat the sheep. They were just getting cheese and getting warm.

29:32KT: But it wasn't theirs. It wasn't their warmth to warm.

29:35Oti: Guess so. I, I wouldn't like. A- and this is, and this is, right, the thing where—

29:41KT: Also, he can't go and kill people and pillage and plunder, but he can kill other species.

29:46Oti: Hmm He—

29:48KT: Especially when we decipher that species could be man. Hmm.

29:52Oti: But he, he fucked up to the point. At that point where they were, they were trying to get away and, you know, getting, banning him and all that, it was like fair game because they're trying to get away.

30:01KT: It's not fair game.

30:02Oti: But up until they left the cave—

30:03KT: That's some Goldilocks shit

30:05Oti: up until they left the cave and then he ha- he turned back when they're already away.

30:09KT: Didn't you just talk about, uh, colonialism?

30:13Oti: Nani?

30:14KT: Could it not be argued that these Greeks intruding in. Exactly. See, I don't even need to finish it. It's right there.

30:25Oti: No, my point was they were already safely out of the cave, but Odysseus, with his I don't know what he was thinking, had to turn back and just aggravate Cyclops a bit more.

30:35KT: No, but there were still more people in there, I'm pretty sure.

30:38Oti: No, Where we had Eurylochus be like, "Damn, what did you do that for? We were out."

30:45KT: Yeah.

30:47Oti: And that's why I was like, okay, Odysseus is, in as much as he wants to lead a good path, he's not really. He has his demons as well

30:57KT: Yes.

30:58Oti: Mm.

30:59KT: Absolutely.

31:00Oti: Mm.

31:01KT: But I, yeah, I just, uh, when that happened, I was like, "Mm, I can't fuck with you." Like, if something happens to you, more than welcome. And there were so many things. He was like Job, but he was able to overcome all of the elements— to become the Avatar o— Odyssey. but yeah, uh, I was like, "Yeah, I'm not fucking with you." Like, I didn't like that. You could have left him alone. It was funny, though, when it's like, uh, when they were like, "Oh, he talks, let's try and reason with him." Nah, bro, it's too late now.

31:31Oti: Mm.

31:31KT: Just fucking run. but I think that wa— I think there was a lesson to be learnt there, and that was quite earl- early in the journey. Athena, I wanna talk about Athena for a little bit. I thought the use of Athena, portrayed by, Zendaya, was done really well.

31:52Oti: Mm.

31:52KT: Because it kind of became the moral conscience of Odysseus, and if he were to have any guilt, it would be that. To me, she was a personification of the goddess Athena, and because of the way they ravaged, in savagery, Troy, was it all worth it?

32:18Oti: They showed—

32:18KT: All his soldiers ch- doing whatever to the women and children.

32:24Oti: Exactly. They showed bare people, women and kids getting killed, but the only guilt that is shown, at least from an Odysseus point of view, is the guilt of seeing Athena getting killed.

32:40KT: N- no, I would actually argue that it is a culmination of what he allowed to happen. W- we definitely, and I can make many excuses for us to go and watch it again, but there was, there was something in his narration talking about they kind of always had this nature in them, and he allowed them to unleash that bestial nature. He partic- he d- he, he, he was a active participant.

33:07Oti: But that's what I mean.

33:08KT: Saying allowed them to. But I'm saying the weight of that is what culminated in that beheading of the Athena statue as a personification, as a symbolic breaking of a bond to the goddess of Athena.

33:23Oti: Mm.

33:24KT: That's, uh, but that's the way that I interpreted it.

33:27Oti: Yeah, fair.

33:28KT: but yeah, it, it was, it was disgusting. And I was, but I was also like, "Fuck you mean you regret it? You knew like you knew that's what this was gonna be." Like, why did you, why did you roll around in everyone's piss and shit in that horse? Which i- it looked pretty cool, like the design of the horse in general.

33:47Oti: Oh, it looked amazing, but I would not—

33:50KT: No, thanks

33:51Oti: want to be in there.

33:52KT: And they said that people died, and they just like were at the bottom of the bloody horse.

33:56Oti: You know, people were shitting

33:58KT: with— How fucking feeble would you be— Like, ugh after days of standing in that?

34:01Oti: Right, for you to be w- good enough to I guess they didn't have to do all the heavy lifting up until they opened the gate, and then they could sit back and let the army in.

34:11KT: Cool thing is, uh, 'cause Nolan was, uh, in talks, or he was preparing, or he was pitching to direct Troy. so he was trying to think of how to portray the horse, and he was able to keep it for this film.

34:27Oti: Nice.

34:29KT: Yeah.

34:29Oti: Build up. Brilliant

34:31KT: Even though the, even though that was referenced, uh, in The Iliad, there was reference to that. But yeah, so Athena, I, I thought that was quite interesting. I thought it was quite an interesting use of guilt. It was like the Vera Farmiga.

34:47Oti: Mm.

34:48KT: That's a Bates Motel. Friends and lovers, get your reference calendars out if you're nasty. Um, Circe, one of my favor— I would say my favorite, my favorite scene in The Odyssey, and I'm glad we've already covered a lot. I would like to spend time here, and if you don't wanna spend time here, you're against women, and I will reveal— I will, I will show you, I will tell Oti to take his disguises off and reveal his true nature. Um, but Circe, demi-goddess, goddess, depending on which search you're looking at, of magic. A powerful sorceress. Friends and lovers, we've said spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Fucking love.

35:32Oti: Mm.

35:33KT: Wow. Let me get your, your manpretation.

35:39Oti: First of all, when, when they were heading there, and they're walking past all the different—

35:45KT: Exotic

35:45Oti: exotic animals, I was like, "What kind of African safari are they gonna end up in now?" I was expecting some bullshit, so, about the time, 'cause I didn't realize. I was like, "Why are these animals not attacking?"

36:00KT: Mm.

36:01Oti: Very weird.

36:02KT: Yeah.

36:03Oti: And we get to Circe getting them to eat, and it was all this gluttonous sort of munching down, which I thought, "Ugh." Okay, I get your perspective.

36:16KT: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

36:18Oti: But—

36:19KT: Yes?

36:20Oti: To be fair to these men—

36:24KT: Derogatory?

36:26Oti: All they wanted was a hot meal, and they'll be on their way.

36:32KT: Are you sure you're not British? Like, what makes you think they're entitled to a meal?

36:36Oti: What? They're hungry. They've not eaten in days. What makes you think they're enti— They've been ravaged by your gods in the water.

36:42KT: But they ravaged people first. Are we doing this? Are we going toe f- for toe for pillaging?

36:48Oti: I'm not, I'm not. I'm just saying, mans gotta eat, and—

36:53KT: Eat some fucking grass, you beast

36:56Oti: In what, like I did not feel or I did not see how they were disrespectful. I, I get Circe's point of everyone that's been here has been coming for some bullshit. But these specific people who came there were none of that. And them eating the food that's already been tainted, that's why they're eating it like pigs Bruh, what, what is it called? Entrapment. That's, that's entrapment at that point

37:28KT: It's

37:29Oti: hard— Just giving a different perspective a little bit.

37:31KT: Yeah, but somehow Nolan gets women more than you do. Hey yo. It's hard not to associate, 'cause again, I said it, it, it was, adapted to modern, like, e- emotional resonance of today.

37:47Oti: Mm.

37:47KT: And it's hard to not feel rage, and rage on behalf of Circe. Okay. Because I. I- if you're talking about, like, the basic needs of food, like, fuck you. Who, who do you think dese- like, obviously hospitality, et cetera, but I think there is a bigger conversation to be had of I'm not that guy. And, and even from this sense, they've already raped and pillaged, right? They've already raped and pillaged. This is after Troy. And even, even after Troy they were, they were island-hopping around, raping and pillaging everyone. So if you really wanna be very, very, very real about that, there is a context of that if you are willing, this perspective you like talking about, if you are willing to actually talk about that perspective. And yeah, you, you even said it yourself. Odysseus didn't seem to have any remorse. His crew did not give an iota of remorse, so fuck him. But o- on your specific, uh, topic of they didn't do anything to Circe specifically Then that's where you tap into what Circe's saying. And Circe said, "They haven't done anything yet, but the danger and the safety that I need to feel," which from my perspective, the perspective that I can give, is how a lot of women feel in this world for the danger and violence of men If you wanna take it there, I'll take it to church, my love. Because I felt that with all of my core. Women can't be safe in this world, and that's why Circe exists, not your Daenerys'. Your savior complex tied up in a wrapped bow. Sorry, it's bestial, and it's ugly, and it's Circe, and we are harrumph

39:37Oti: No, I get you. I get you. It's, it's I get you. But taking that into account, are they getting presented Odysseus as the voice of reason while he's also been the. But it's like

39:52KT: Chicken George.

39:55Oti: Yeah.

39:59KT: And that was at least. Was, was that your introduction? That was my introduction to Regé-Jean Page. Was that your introduction? Y—

40:04Oti: yeah, it was.

40:09KT: But it. I get what you're saying because he's always pointing the finger, but, like, it should really be pointed towards himself. I understand that. But I th- it, it, it really is the case that, like, S— I understand Circe inherently, and it has to do a lot with, rage that women feel, and that is the more real truth than your bloody, um, Promising Young Woman. That's girly pop Barbie— Wow rage. No, really, 'cause this, this is how it should be, and this is what it is, and we fucking love Samantha Morton. I feel like even in the guest spot that she had in She Said, I'd be, we'd be singing her praises all the time. We fucking love her.

40:50Oti: Mm-hmm.

40:51KT: And she was great. In that, oh, man, I almost peeled back Oti to reveal— his bestial nature in the IMAX. I was fucking pumped. I was like, "Let's go, bro." But that also, that's Nolan's pen, and I really need to lay my love to Nolan because he understands. Remember how we watched, um, shall I say Anne Hathaway? Remember how we watched the Michaela Coel Anne Hathaway movie, and I'm like, "I don't think this man likes women"?

41:18Oti: Mm.

41:19KT: By the lens and the way he was writing it, Nolan was able. The same thing I'm saying as a woman, the fact that I was able to watch such a film bro-y, man-focused movie and the, the, the delicate nature of feminine rage was in this film, and it was achieved, and it was received by me, love and splooshes to Christopher Nolan. The same way Coogler knows how to write women because he understands and he's able to write from a lens of loving women, respecting women firstly and foremost You wanna balance it by a woman that I didn't care for too much?

41:58Oti: Yeah.

41:59KT: Let's be very real and let's be very mature, friends and lovers. This is about the character arc. The performances are obviously very great. Anne Hathaway is very, very, very, very great. We've talked about Odysseus a lot. I wanna talk about the dynamic, but we have talked about Odysseus. And to be fair, he, he was missing from Ithaca for 20 years. I wanna talk about Penelope. I wanted to laugh. I wanted to laugh. When she was talking to Telemachus, I'm pretty sure, it was after Antinous, uh, Robert Pattinson left, and she was doing her weaving. I'm pretty sure she was saying it to her son. Uh, right? She was saying it to her son. She was like, "You think it's been empty?" 'Cause Telemachus was getting itchy, and he's like, " Mom, I came back. I know what I'm doing. I talked to Menelaus and Helen. I'm good now. I'm a real boy." It's Mario. So when he said that, Penelope was so disgusted and offended, and she delivered a very powerful performance to critique character arc, but very powerful performance. "You think this chair's been empty? I've been on this throne for 20 years." Respectfully, my queen, asterisks on the queen title, if you were sitting on it for 20 years, might as well have been Casper because no one saw it. Wow. No one respected it. Am I wrong?

43:33Oti: And here we thought we were g- we were tapping into the for women thing.

43:37KT: Well, rage. Not entitlement

43:42Oti: H- here's my thing. She managed to keep, however you wanna see it, whether she occupied it or not, she was able to keep that 20 years without those men outside getting too antsy. She was like, "You know what? Let me placate them. They'll enter here in the halls every day. They will drink to their fill." But they drank all the good wine. Cool. But what that means is they will not be up in here pretending they're the king now. So while you are placated with wine for fucking 20 years, she managed that well. It was only up until the very end when still things were like, okay, now she can't push this any farther. But 20 years is a good lo— It, it's a long-ass time. Whether you think she sat on the throne or not, she was able to

44:34KT: keep that— No, no, but she's, she's saying she sat on the throne, my love. She was saying she was a present— I

44:38Oti: am coming—

44:39KT: sitting member.

44:40Oti: No, no, no. I, I am, I am spinning it on its head, flipping it on back on you. You need a,

44:44KT: you need a member to be a sitting member, and she

44:47Oti: No. I, I. Regardless of what you think she achieved and whether or not you think she sat on it, there was no recognition that, oh—

44:58KT: She wrote

44:58Oti: it there's a leader. She's still the queen, but the fact that there was no king for 20 years speaks volume on the strategy she had to employ to keep that empty for that long without having to be forced into a marriage sooner. There w— And even when it came to that point where, you know, when you felt like you've gotten to your last straw and been presented that last straw She was there saying, "You know what? Fuck these people. I ain't marrying no one"

45:35KT: Stop, stop imply- stop, stop deploying the same tactics of my queen, Latifah, on 30 Rock— when she was a politician, and she just spoke loudly and convincingly. Okay? You can't trick me. That's my queen, Queen Latifah. Um, but you see what I'm saying. So yes, there was no king on the throne for 20 years, but there was also no ruler on the throne for 20 years. Heyo.

46:04Oti: There was though.

46:05KT: I'm a real boy.

46:06Oti: There was though, otherwise— No, there wasn't otherwise

46:10KT: There, there's pow—

46:10Oti: And that's the thing with vacuum. It gets occupied when there's n- when there's no one there. There's— The fact that it was, the vacuum stayed there for 20 years means there was no vacuum. However, the political, whatever the, the perceived idea of it being empty, it really wasn't empty because it was empty for 20 years.

46:28KT: Mm. What's empty if empty not, cannot be filled? But plac- placating is different to ruling. And even for example, we love Lagertha, but there was only so much— Tactics be tactics though but in, in Vikings, we love Lagertha, but there was only so much she could do and be respected by before people would be like, "Ah, I'm not listening to no woman," right? And that's me speaking as a woman. Even Aslaug when she was, like, ruling in some sort of sense in Vikings— Oh, people love Aslaug for whatever reason she, but she was, because she was taken as feminine charms and wiles, not as a serious leader. Succession, Logan Roy never saw Shiv as a, as a legitimate option, even though, you know, she was very entitled, but she did do a lot of— Liv, she got into her w- into, into the way in which she wants though but what I'm saying is, and I don't even know how I need to explain it to you or our friends and lovers listening, women are not valued the same, whether back in Ithaca, even to today.

47:30Oti: And that's why you have to deploy smarter tactics though.

47:31KT: Even your Cersei. But even your Cersei, I'm pretty sure she didn't wanna kiss her brother even though her brother looked like that. She didn't wanna kiss her brother, but that was a way into power.

47:41Oti: Oh, she, she, she wanted that. That,

47:43KT: that's a different thing altogether. But you see what I'm saying. Like, even, like House of the Dragon, right? We have Olivia Cooke is her real name, um, but the, the, she's the daughter of the, the Hand.

47:55Oti: Mm.

47:57KT: And the way that power is used there, come on now. And it's even like when we were talking about Woman King. Like, a- as much as we wanted Thuso's character to not be married off at, like, 13, 14, un-fucking-fortunately, that was the practice back in the time. So what I'm saying is as noble and as hard as I'm sure Penelope worked, as great as Anne Hathaway's performance was, it has nothing to do with performance. It's in regards to the narrative, and also considering the setting of the time, I just thought it was funny that she thought she was ruling it for 20 years and no one fucking noticed.

48:34Oti: No, I think people. And, and that's the thing, right? People's perception. You make them think that they're in control while you pull the strings. You're the puppeteer. You're—

48:46KT: So I just let the people know, I think they think I'm gonna pay the bill, and I'm not gonna pay the bill Perception ain't nothing anything to do with anybody

48:56Oti: Bruh, i- if people think they're playing you while you have them eating out of your hand, fuck perception, fuck what they think. Because at the end of the day, she managed to keep that em- throne empty up until Odysseus came back and Telemachus was e- old enough to take over.

49:11KT: But I agree with that. Like, narrative-wise, I agree with that. The, what I would have contention and, and, and have a repartee with you is whether she legitimately had the power for 20 years. She didn't. It stagnated. You even said that. It's just waiting for, it's waiting for the king to come back.

49:32Oti: No. It's like, you know how—

49:34KT: Sarabi. Is that S— Sarabi is the wife of Mufasa, right?

49:37Oti: Mm.

49:38KT: She couldn't rule. She couldn't rule The Lion Kingdom, or whatever they call it. And

49:43Oti: that's why Scar took over.

49:44KT: But do you see what I'm saying? But imagine that— They would rather a sleazy uncle ah, perfect, perfect They would rather a sleazy uncle.

49:50Oti: No, no, no. So imagine that if Scar didn't rule then the kingdom for 20X years until Simba came back, would you s- call that a failure? No. He, she kept Scar off. Scar couldn't rule the kingdom until Simba came.

50:06KT: You don't think Scar was laying scar inside of Sarabi?

50:09Oti: She wa- he was.

50:10KT: Huh.

50:11Oti: But no one laid hands on Penelope for 20-odd years.

50:16KT: Well, I don't know about that.

50:18Oti: Or maybe they were helpers or whatever. I don't know what Spartacus stuff they do there. But the point being—

50:25KT: Lucretia, Lucretia could never run the ludus, but she did have power in the way she was able to navigate, but she was still navigating as a woman. Any—

50:35Oti: Lucretia was running that, but Batiatus was just but the face.

50:39KT: No, he was the butt and the face, so respectfully, deliciously. But, like, honestly, in any narrative, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, there is absolutely a gender imbalance when it comes to men and women. So I don't know— I'm not

50:53Oti: denying that

50:54KT: Yeah, so like—

50:55Oti: I'm not denying that, but I'm just saying—

50:58KT: She's the one woman to do it in all of the histories

51:00Oti: No, perception be whatever it is you want, but the fact is no one sat on that throne for 20 years.

51:06KT: How about our Edie Falco? How about her being a prison guard in Oz? That wasn't safe. You can't say women can do everything and just chuck her in the Oz prison. That's scary, bro.

51:15Oti: Oh, Edie Falco was one of the. She was the O— Odysseus.

51:23KT: Like our Danny Sofer—

51:24Oti: Yeah

51:25KT: in The Shield. Oh.

51:26Oti: But

51:26KT: you see what I'm saying.

51:28Oti: No, I hear you.

51:28KT: I hear you. So I think to poo-poo me saying, "Come on, she didn't," it's like, no, she didn't. Like, I agree with you. She did as much to placate and to keep that throne.

51:37Oti: Cut the tape.

51:38KT: But that doesn't, but that doesn't mean. There is no tape, motherfucker. This is digital. Just like we went to IMAX digital, but it doesn't dilute the experience. Harumpf. See? You like keeping women within a, uh, capped power. That's why you're scared of Circe. Mm. Knock, knock, bitch. Oink, oink, bitch. Telemachus. You know, of all of the delicious things we're talking about, I didn't really care for his character personally, but i- he was, he was important to the narrative. Oh, Daddy, my Daddy. but I will say there was a moment I was watching this, 'cause I feel like we've only really seen Tom Holland in, like, teenyboppery things. I know there was that Cherry movie. Like, I know he did try and, like, branch out into doing serious, uh, roles, but I've only really seen him in Spider-Man. And there was a moment watching this film where I'm like, "You know what? Tom Holland got it. I, I see it. I get it."

52:39Oti: Mm. Yeah, but his role, I guess— From Telemachus's perspective, I don't know how you talk to your mom like that, regardless, uh, of what you think or what you think it is—

52:52KT: Oh, so we're talking about Whitey pleasantries and not gender imbalances, are we? What do you mean by talking to his mom like that?

53:00Oti: No, 'cause remember when he, he, he was mentioning to Penelope, "Oh, hi, you. You're not. You've not been doing anything. You've not been ruining— Calling her a slut Go get..." Yeah.

53:09KT: Yeah.

53:09Oti: Like, bruh, what the fuck? I was, I was almost, "Go get that bow and start spanking him."

53:17KT: Maybe that's. But doesn't that lean into the whole tendency? Hey, yo. Okay. Actually, you know, there's something that I wanted to say as well that we didn't really, we didn't really talk about. I wouldn't say it got on the nose, but they did use the plucking of that bow a lot. Mm. But he didn't do that toward the humans when he was gonna He only did it for the animals. He felt so sorry for the animals and not the humans. '

53:42Oti: Cause he's ca- he's catching them off guard while the humans are prepared to, you know. Well, he didn't do that when they were invading Troy though, so there's that.

53:54KT: Well.

53:55Oti: Yeah. Clop,

53:56KT: clop, bitch. Yeah, I didn't really care for Telemachus's character. Like, it was cool that he was there. Did you like your Leguizamo? He was. Like, I think he, I think Tyler Perry casted him, and then he ended up on the Nolan set— because, like, what was. Like, it was a bit much.

54:20Oti: Yeah, he, he, he overacted a bit.

54:24KT: Like, I, I appreciated that the tone of The Odyssey— Allowed for, like you said, the more fantastical sort of themes, and also it didn't feel out of place having an American accent. Like, I don't know, did you, did you get distracted by the American accent at all? Nah. Like, that shit didn't. Because the way that it was being told, it was an exploration and, and, and, and very much a, a, of the now restoration of the story, right? So American accents didn't really bother me or anything. And, you know, even tonally they did have jokes, you know? Corey Hawkins was there. Polybus was his name.

55:06Oti: Mm-hmm.

55:07KT: Um, you know, he had his jokes, he had his, um, moments. But yeah, Leguizamo was a bit much. Like— it was, it was very Tyler Perry type of acting to me personally.

55:20Oti: Mm.

55:21KT: but anyway, um, but Telemachus, yep, cool. Like, he did what he had to do. My second favorite scene of this film, and look at me being a wholly dimensional, uh, reviewer. I, I waited to talk about all the other stuff. The Hades scene I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved so much. I don't know why I haven't become a playwright, haha, uh, but, like, going to screenplay, like, spl- plays because I feel like I'm very dialogue driven and I'm very, you know, y- your, your, your emotional guilt catching up to you, and that was very much the Hades scene for me. And we love Elliot Page, Sinon, very, very, very great. but that scene for me, aside from Elliot Page really making a whole meal out of his scenes It pulled into-- I would also agree with you that I don't think Odysseus had that much guilt. I think he was just forced to 'cause he had nothing left, so I will agree with you on that. But the perceived guilt that he should have had was dragging him into Hades. And I also thought it was quite interesting that there was no way to get home until he faced his proverbial—

56:41Oti: Demons

56:42KT: demons.

56:43Oti: Mm-hmm.

56:43KT: And to have Sinon say, "I know you had to lie to them. Why'd you have to lie to me?" "Yous had to sell the dream. Why'd you sell it to me?" But it's like the, the, the, the deepest, ugliest, you know, most flinching parts of yourself that you never want to reckon with, you never even wanna whisper even unto yourself.

57:11Oti: Part of me hoped that he survived the encounter, 'cause—

57:15KT: Sinon?

57:15Oti: Yeah. How? 'Cause they did the arrows, got shot and pinned up to the horse, and then when the guy was about to finish him off with a sword, the guy was like, "No, no, no. We'll, we'll gift this back," and I thought for whatever reason they would've taken care of them and, you know.

57:33KT: No, it's too late.

57:34Oti: I guess, nah, man.

57:35KT: This ain't anime, and this also isn't— But it's also not Avengers.

57:40Oti: But for the, for Odysseus, um, I was there, I could smell your blood. You

57:46KT: didn't have to smell the blood, you fucking shark. You didn't have to smell the blood. He was

57:51Oti: there till the end.

57:53KT: He's like Raiden. See, that's why Raiden disappears. Mm. That's why Raiden disappears.

57:59Oti: Yeah.

57:59KT: And that's why Gandalf disappears.

58:01Oti: That's why it is.

58:02KT: Because why the fuck are we suffering if you're along with us the whole time? Shouldn't you be, like, absorbing or shielding off our struggle?

58:11Oti: There's always a bloody reason.

58:13KT: But I really love that, like, the depravity of man, that helplessness, that reflection that we both agree he didn't have. It's like you are fucked, and your men are gonna be fucked. Ooh, and there was another line in that Hades scene of saying, "Why do you pr- why do you mourn your men alive and not the ones you've lost?" Ooh. Mm. Pour one out for the real ones.

58:43Oti: Yeah.

58:44KT: I was like, "Fuck, man is cooking."

58:47Oti: Mm, 'cause what are you gonna do for the dead? They're dead. Let's move on.

58:53KT: Well, actually speaking of, when they went onto the island and he said, "Don't eat..." And he "Don't eat the, the cows"? Mm. Was it the cows or the chi— The

59:02Oti: cows. "

59:02KT: Don't eat the cows on this fucking island," and then they built like. They, they, they dug a pit— to eat. And they were like, "Oh, we thought you wouldn't." It's like, you think the sun goddess won't see you?

59:15Oti: It's all a dream

59:17KT: there's not many more things I wanna talk about. Menelaus and Helen, like obviously love Lupita. of that particular exchange, it was quite interesting because, you know, the face that launched 1,000 ships is the way that it is sold, and that's the lens in which it is told. But then from another angle, it's a woman being used on behalf of her husband.

59:40Oti: Mm-hmm.

59:42KT: Very interesting. And again, Nolan seems to understand women to the extent of the way that. And even the way Lupita played Helen, like kinda like a statue, right? Like she didn't have any sort of agency or autonomy over herself, right? Mm. And this is why I'm the film bro, because I'm giving you more layers. but it was really interesting, Helen. my, my biggest, biggest gripe with this film is how banger, how fucking, how fucking cool Agamemnon's armor was, and he was ugly. Like, he was so ugly they wouldn't even show this after. And I was like, bruh, might as well have been Benny Blanco.

60:23Oti: The fuck? No,

60:26KT: but it's like, you remember when it's like, when you had like 300 and you had Xerxes, and he was some big-ass gold motherfucker?

60:33Oti: But we, we, we didn't need to see him.

60:35KT: But that's my point. I'm just like, he was like king daddy daddy, not Odysseus. Mm. You know? That. But again, it's a small gripe. But he, he— Who cares?

60:44Oti: he got his upco- upcoming though, so

60:48KT: Yeah, so I didn't really care about that. And I also, you know, there are so many films and TV shows that cover, you know, the story of Troy, Helen of Troy, et cetera. So I didn't really care that we didn't get too much into them because we're focusing on Odysseus anyway. the sirens I wanna talk a little bit about. I thought that was quite interesting. Do you think you could resist, uh, Halle Bailey on the rocks?

61:12Oti: Yeah Yeah, right. Uh, uh—

61:15KT: You're very curious I'm

61:16Oti: not jumping in the water for nothing.

61:18KT: No, you would. Yeah. I wouldn't.

61:21Oti: What do you mean I would?

61:22KT: You would, because it's like, you know what I think this is? What? If we're going to, modernize it, the sirens are the comment section. The sirens, I'm serious. I'm very serious because I have no interest. I'm not looking at the fuck- especially depending on what the subject matter is. Like, any sort of casting news about Lupita, I would never read the comments. Mm-hmm. I'll just go onto her Instagram and say how much I love her and put my love heart eyes on there. Like, I just. People that a- are too curious about things that they know might be damaging, don't read it. Don't look. Like, nope, don't look, don't look at there. Don't look, don't look over there. See? Exactly. I think you'll be curious, and you'll be like, "I'm strong enough to withhold this, withstand this." And then you'll jump, you'll jump overboard, "I'm a real boy." "Penelope is king," and then you're like

62:21Oti: She is king, so.

62:23KT: a- anything about the sirens to you?

62:25Oti: No, it was a cool scene. Again, Odysseus' men don't really listen to him

62:32KT: No, he, he's a pretty shit leader, so they—

62:34Oti: He is a shit leader. He is a shit leader.

62:36KT: They didn't really have much fate—

62:38Oti: Yeah

62:39KT: aside from what they were facing, but yeah. Um, Matt Damon screaming on that pole is how I feel when people wanna talk film to me.

62:47Oti: Ahh.

62:48KT: And we came out of, um, oh, what was it? Bugonia. Came out of Bugonia, some white boy trying to tell me that, um, One Battle After Another wasn't about a revolution. Ahh. Ahh. That was me. I was Matt Damon. I was like, "Get me out of here. I don't want to talk to you."

63:05Oti: Oh, is it that whole thing, viva la revolution, whatever the

63:08KT: fuck? But that's my point. Yeah. Like, there are people I don't want to talk to about film, so I'm just gonna use that Matt Damon meme every time. Um, but I think that's it. I obviously love Robert Pattinson as Antinous. He plays Like, I don't think the word sniveling existed— sniveling, pathetic loser until him, and respectfully, 'cause we love this man, but he- whenever he plays chara— It didn't work for Mickey 17.

63:40Oti: When you said that, I just thought of Muttley. You know, "Muttley, the sniveling

63:42KT: coward." Mutt— Maybe. Yeah. Ooh, live action. You know how Daniel Kaluuya is doing Barney. Maybe Robert Pattinson can do Muttley.

63:50Oti: Live action of Muttley would be wild. Oh.

63:57KT: is there anything else you wanted to cover, my love?

64:00Oti: Nah, I, I ha— I really had fun with this movie. from all, all, all the, m— I guess storylines that I wasn't really aware of to the fantastical elements to the dream or not to be dreams, doesn't really matter. I fully, fully enjoyed this. This is what cinema is for.

64:21KT: It really is.

64:22Oti: Mm.

64:23KT: Um, yeah, I think, I think it was great. you know, friends and lovers, I think everywhere around the world it's, like, a month in advance, unless you're gonna wake up at 2:00 AM on a Wednesday morning or something. so we are excited to watch it in IMAX one more time. I would like to watch it in 4DX and get my shit rocked. and hopefully we can try to go to Melbourne, but I don't know if that will align with schedules and that sort of thing. But friends and lovers, ooh-hoo-hoo, wow. We're one-third of an odyssey, Oti. Uh, thank you friends and lovers for joining us. After, you know, our little break that we had, uh, we're gonna finish off with a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

65:12Oti: I'm gonna reference Life of Pi

65:17KT: Mm.

65:18Oti: Dreams are not dreams, it's a bloody— Oh, in fact, even the, the play itself is—

65:26KT: So

65:26Oti: good amazing. Mm, mm, mm.

65:28KT: I do wonder if there are parallels between Life of Pi and Odyssey, though.

65:33Oti: Yeah. '

65:33KT: Cause there was a lot of ship shit, there was a lot of fantasy. Yeah, interesting.

65:38Oti: Yeah.

65:39KT: Look at you.

65:41Oti: They don't call me Cinema Bro Papa for nothing.

65:43KT: And mentioning the, the recorded play production, there's another brown boy. You got a brown boy button, hey?

65:48Oti: Yeah.

65:50KT: I got a big boy button.

65:52Oti: I know.

65:52KT: Oink, oink, bitch. I will reference Porco Rosso. Actually, before I do that, shout-outs to Montaro and Zumi, um, because they were also at the Odyssey screening as well, and they also mentioned Spirited Away—

66:06Oti: Ooh, nice, yeah

66:07KT: as about the gluttony.

66:08Oti: They did.

66:08KT: Yeah. I will reference Porco Rosso because it is more. It, it is, it does gear towards a more mature audience. There is a mention of fascism and war— And pigs and what is it good for? You all.

66:30Oti: Uh— Okay, Kung

66:30KT: Fu Russia. Why wasn't Chris Tucker? Hey, if Lakeith Stanfield could act the way he was acting, John, uh, the Chris Tucker should be there as well.

66:39Oti: Oh.

66:39KT: And throw Jackie Chan in there as well. but back to Porco Rosso, uh, because sometimes you'll find the most gentlemanly are the piglies, and the most piglies are man. And with that, uh, uh, uh, uh, Patrick Stewart quote right.

66:58Oti: Oh, get it. Come on, Crickets Piglies.

67:03KT: Um, if you would like to see Oti's Piglies on Twitter, Instagram, uh, we try to log in to Blue Sky. We're @foryourrefpod.

67:10Oti: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

67:14KT: We're also on Cinema's Alive, and we're alive because Cinema's Alive,

67:21Oti: baby. Mm, mm,

67:21KT: mm. Podcast, if you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

67:26Oti: See you.

67:27KT: Bye.