TÁR- Inharmonious conduct

Full transcript of TÁR- Inharmonious conduct.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and it's another display of us being human, Oti.

0:05Oti: Mm-hmm.

0:06KT: Technically this is where we celebrate our fourth year of podcasting. Um, we can blame it on life or we can blame it on the third episode of The Last of Us.

0:17KT: Wow. Um, we're very excited to get into this episode, um, today. Grab a beverage if you're feeling winky. Put on your monocle and let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and institutional lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference Podcast. You got your host, KT

0:49Oti: and Oti

0:50KT: Be drawn into the orchestral stirrings of maintaining power structures, predator's new clothes, and shirking accountability

0:58Oti: what?

0:59KT: Attend the deposition of Tár this week. Hey, yay. Um, let's get into general stats and information. I would say very interestingly, this film was released in Australia on January 26th and we did have a MUE episode of You Can Go Now, of the activist masquerading as an artist of Richard Bell. And we talked about the art world and it feels like there's perhaps some overlap in this sort of musical world.

1:30Oti: Yeah, the sure is

1:31KT: Stuffy and snobby. Did you say We're winers, but we're not. Snobby winers, friends and lovers. Uh, new to the For Your Reference podcast, we have writer director Todd Field. Thank you to Universal Pictures for giving us the preview screening. Um, for Tár. In way of cast, we have Cate Blanchett, Noémie Merlant, as well as Nina Hoss. Spoiler. Spoiler, spoiler. Predator. Predator. Yeah, this is getting more than the Comanche Dub. This is the kt.

2:06KT: Well, let's get into general thoughts, first impressions. Um, as always, I do have themes that I want to talk to, whether executed or not, whether HAP has it or not, whether continuing to center voices that don't need to be centered or not. Yes, you already know. I'm feeling away. Let's take it away. Oti and A one and a two and a three

2:29Oti: I, you could tell, so I'm conflicted here a bit. Right? I could see Kate boner star. She pulled up such a wonderful performance. Mm-hmm. , I, I appreciated how much effort and work you could tell that was put in, um, the technicalities of everything. One of the things that I had was, it, it didn't make me feel as if I wanted to learn more about the world or even be, want to be part in that world at.

2:55Oti: It. It didn't feel like if I was to compare this and say something like Whiplash. Mm-hmm. , I have no shit about drumming. Yeah. But

3:03KT: oh, I miss Whiplash.

3:05Oti: and

3:06KT: famously, I don't care for that film, but the dialogue was definitely something to hold onto. But you are right. Watching this, I was like, I regret everything I've said about, probably not,

3:17Oti: but

3:17KT: I was like, I actually miss J.K. Simmons daddy yelling at me in my fingers, bleeding. Not just my man Moon.

3:24Oti: Mm. Yeah. And, and I was, I was, I was wondering, you know, why is it that I wasn't able to buy into it? You know, it's not that it was lack of performance or anything like that, I just, I struggled with it up until the end of the movie. And even having seen it, what, two weeks ago, I still can't put my finger on it.

3:44KT: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely agree. And, you know, if we can wink ourselves ever so snobby, I, I do feel like we are open to a lot of different types of cinema. I think of a Danish, you know, a Mads Mikkelsen riding on a bicycle.

3:59KT: You know, there, there are so many things that we watch that may not be accessible to our literal experiences, but there are universal themes that are. if we, if, if it's able to have some sort of resonance and you talk about the performances, but a great performance does not a beautiful film make.

4:18KT: For a film that subject matter is to build to a dramatic crescendo, it really fizzled and only offered a dull portrayal of what simply is a story about a predator. Mm. Honestly, like I think about the film with Jake Gyllenhaal, the Danish film called.

4:40Oti: Yeah.

4:41KT: and without giving any sort of spoilers to that film, put very simply and not reducing it or making it derivative, it is a very simple story, right? Mm-hmm. Tár is a very simple story of, we'll talk about power structures, friends and lovers. Just cuz she's not a man doesn't mean she doesn't abuse and misuse her power. We're absolutely going to get to that, but it really. Lydia Tár or Linda Tarr. I love that moment. By the way, can I just say the MVP of this film was Tony, her brother,

5:14Oti: Yep.

5:15KT: like, you know, in, in, in Tong and it's called Like whenever you try and make yourself better than what you are, your people will, you know, keep you straight or as Oti loves, um, the Australian New Zealand phrase tall poppy syndrome. Mm-hmm. , which is kind of a bit more negative, but I, I feel like Tár could have been cut down a peg too. Well, you know, if you fight me, you are on the side of the predator. So we don't want to be there. Do we?

5:40Oti: We're introduced to Tár very weirdly. You know, we get this scene where he's, you know, she's teaching and she approaches this black kid, you know, she targets this black kid because

5:51KT: We're going to come to it.

5:52Oti: Yeah, like I was, it's

5:53KT: definitely going to come to it. It was a bit lower in the themes, but I might pop it up for you so we can capture it.

5:59KT: Um, I just wanna capture off the rest of my first impressions. Again, put simply, she's not a man, but she still did willfully misuse her power and continue to harm young, in this case, women in, in the lead and. The, the chase for success, not necessarily fame, but I guess you could also say because she is notable, um, you know, in these sort of spaces.

6:26KT: But I guess what I don't care for, you know, we recently did a Reference Max, you know, and in there we covered She Said, by all accounts, Performances brilliant. Just like entire. The performances were brilliant. The dialogue worked and She Said there was also a considered care in the way that survivors were portrayed and, and the brutal violence sort of scenes were portrayed.

6:51KT: And She Said, my qualm in it is more to speak of the zeitgeist and I guess the, the, I guess you could say the accountability, but it's also the lack of consequences of addressing. Systemic violence and abuse that happens not just to women, but you know, in general. Right. And She Said so that, that's a broader dialogue that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the film, but it was done correctly.

7:15KT: The qualm that I have with this film is it's actually being told from the point of view of the predator, right? You're not gonna have She Said from the point of view of Harvey Weinstein. So, no, but really, So, so let's, let's be even-keeled here. Is it just because she's a woman? It's okay. There were many scenes in this that made me uncomfortable, and there were even people that were giggling like in the cinema, like shade, but no shade.

7:39KT: Why? Why is that okay? Why is it okay that she's having a flirting, you know, sexy lady on lady moment? But if that were to be in a She Said context or otherwise, it wouldn't be allowed. So to me it's. Let's have a proper fucking conversation about misusing and abusing power in these systems.

7:58Oti: He, I'm with you, man.

8:00KT: Put me in the classroom. Put me in Juilliard. I'll fight Tár. Not to say that Max wasn't capable of fighting for himself, cuz he did. But friends and lovers, you know, I, I do love a Snar and Sorkin. I do love Aaron Sorkin and yes, friends and lovers. We do have A Few Good Men, so feel free to go and listen to that.

8:21KT: But I do reference Aaron Sorkin, you know, talking about how he feels. Anyone can write. Different characters, you know? And I guess from that point of view, he's speaking as a white man, writing non-white male characters, right? Mm-hmm. , the thing that I would point to this is there was an OT by God and by sword you win.

8:42KT: This will be the first theme that we cover, friends and lovers. If it's not intersectional, we don't want it. And don't be surprised if we don't cover intersectionality before we cover the banal. Snobby stuffy. Very overly, deliberately. White themes.

8:57Oti: Whoa, whoa,

8:59KT: Didn't you see me as one of the kids in the background of Coach Carter? Yes. In the background of Freedom Writers, No, but if we're gonna talk about it, we're gonna fucking talk about it. Why are you going to try and introduce it? Because that's a trend. Honestly, it's the trend now to. At least point out the disparity of, I guess those that have privilege and those that don't, right? Whether they're writing from that experience or not, it's trending to do it, so they do it.

9:28KT: Todd Field hit for the fences and he fucking missed, right? Mm-hmm. So let's talk about it. I've written it down as Max's allergies.

9:37Oti: Yeah. So Max has a very strong opinion or standpoint that mm-hmm. , he does not want to give time of day to people who are regarded as, you know, artists. Mm-hmm. of the Greeks Yeah. That were what were, were racist or miso misogynistic back in the day. Yeah. So he, he's like, I don't want to base my artistry on that. Yeah. I want to do, The right way, my own way. Really? Yeah. And he is castigate by Tár for it.

10:07KT: Oh, she fucking strong-armed him though. Yeah. Like he couldn't have his opinion without her completely crushing him.

10:14Oti: Yeah. I felt uncomfortable. I was about to walk out as well. With Max. Yeah. And

10:20KT: we,

10:24Oti: No, but it, it, it was wild because she said, put, put all that aside. What does an artist's talent have to do with this, you know, behavior. Yeah. And she was, that's a

10:34KT: a very privileged thing to say though. Yeah. That's a very privileged thing to say.

10:38Oti: It is, it is. I think it's one of those things that we are also battling with right now in

10:43KT: Do you mean proverbial we

10:46Oti: or do you

10:46KT: outwardly facing? We

10:49Oti: I, I see you, KT.

10:52KT: Hey. Whoa. I see you using my name in vain,

10:59Oti: I have nobody. It's true, right? You get people who are radical called out for, um, really bad behavior. And there shouldn't be a line, you know, T doesn't excuse anything else that he should do, you know? Yeah. As a person, as a human in society. So she, she just gave off really ridiculous vibe and I was like, okay, there's something definitely to that. Even when the way she touched his leg, I was like, yeah, that's a bit weird. Yeah. I was like,

11:25KT: but there's a, there's a misbalance of power as well, because who's going to say anything?

11:29Oti: No. Right, exactly.

11:30KT: Like even if. Even if his classmates like wanted to say something, that obviously would put them in the crossfire as well. God forbid, in a tertiary education setting that a student be able to express something, right? Hmm. I just like that fucking bothered me. In in Patreon, we covered the film Bros.

11:54KT: And I said if it doesn't exist, I'm coining it as the Eichner. I'm really getting fucking sick of films that are writing from experiences that aren't theirs and are trying to center themselves where the actual subject matter that they're talking about of the actual struggle isn't their lived experie.

12:13KT: Like I'm actually sick of it. So if we go back to Max's allergies, and that's what Lydia Tár very facetious said. I don't know. I'm almost certain that Snar and Sorkin is in, is like involved somewhere in here because she did so much puffing of her chest. She did so much proverbial dick swinging to shut him the fuck up.

12:34KT: Like she was snuffing out his voice completely. He couldn't even have a voice. And what's really fucking frustrating to me is the contradiction, the audacity. You know, we have the opening scene in this film, which I think was pretty interesting because you have scenes that you know, flow into a lot of the things.

12:53KT: And some of them might even be seen as like, you know, foreboding sort of moments or a comeuppance. Perhaps, um, even though I really feel like she never really got her full moment of comeuppance in the film, but there was sentiment in there that she was talking about, you know, other conductors that didn't get their due, that never got a full orchestra themselves. She did that stupid thing that people do when they say they go and live in indigenous communities in the.

13:20Oti: Mm-hmm.

13:21KT: Fuck off. So it's, it's great to like learn from there, but you also find a way to put down and devalue it the same way you devalued. Because you also saw it in the intro as well. She had all of, she had a rich history of understanding music and orchestra, and it wasn't just white like Bach, for example.

13:40KT: She had all different sort of albums and collections in that sort of montage with that Q&A panel. And you're only really doing that to make yourself more. Because if you actually really cared in a setting where you have up and coming people, and you talked about the disparities of those that don't get access and don't have the same privilege, you're fucking snuffing him out. And that just shows a disingenuousness. And I'm also going to bring out Minx. Congratulations getting picked up by Starz.

14:09Oti: Nice.

14:09KT: exciting. But I talked about how white feminism isn't feminism. Mm-hmm. , we're not having the same conversation.

14:16Oti: for the people of the black man.

14:17KT: white feminism isn't feminism. If black, brown, and indigenous women and trans women, if we're not talking about that pay disparity between white women, you can fuck off. You'll be eating well, but you can fuck off.

14:32Oti: Yeah, and they set the, they set the tone, or at least for what I was to expect from this movie early on. I think on a more sort of comedic level was when

14:42KT: just live in your bubble. Then why try and why try and have your Hilary Swank, Michelle Pfeiffer's moment.

14:48Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Like when she was naming all the EGOTs, I'm like, the easiest, the lowest hanging fruit man. would be

14:57KT: Whoopi,

14:59Oti: I was like, okay, I don't know what to extract to this movie from now on. It set the tone

15:03KT: fucking erasure at that point,

15:07Oti: Uh, anyway, that was wild. I think I, I refuse to believe the university didn't have an inkling of what Tár's behavior.

15:14KT: have Oh, oh, oh, absolutely.

15:16Oti: they weren't even that shocked. They're like, oh, it's more, it came to this office rather than, oh, they knew this shit.

15:23KT: yeah. It's the same thing with Kamau Bell's brilliant documentary. We Need to Talk About Cosby, right? Yeah. The TV producers on The Cosby Show, he knew.

15:31Oti: Yeah. We'll just close the door, you know. Get the talent in there. Close the door. Yeah. Nothing happens.

15:36KT: fucking knew.

15:37Oti: You could tell there's been myriad of people, even probably before Krista.

15:41KT: Oh, absolutely.

15:42Oti: So,

15:42KT: So, so brazen though. Yeah, but disgusting. But that's exactly, and again, if you wanna talk about feminism, the way she went out of her way, she didn't, she didn't just, you know, if, if people came to where she went out of her way to say, she's a fucking crazy bitch.

15:58Oti: She destroyed any avenue she had of her career outside of her,

16:03KT: a, like women for women. But fuck. Right.

16:06Oti: That was wild. Like she made sure she sent a review, a bite review to every, everyone in the industry. Yep. Krista's a bad egg.

16:15KT: disgusting. Like absolutely disgusting. I am aware of the senses, friends and lovers. So the episode, even though I wanna be brave with my whole chest, is not gonna be called Predator's New Clothes. But I do have that as a theme. And the reason why I say that is because Real ones know and real ones can recognize. The misuse and abuse of power, regardless of race, regardless of gender, regardless of whatever sexuality.

16:45KT: Right? And also, we can also talk about Fire Island specifically on this podcast where we talk about a hierarchy within the queer community. And unfortunately, racism blind there either.

16:57Oti: No, it's not.

16:58KT: So, you know, talking about Krista, I just want to pick up off on that as well. There was the emails and she used the word I, I remember I had to try and write this down. She was using a lot of language, but she actually used the word unstable. Mm-hmm. as a woman, she knows what that word means. She knows that that word has weight and she willfully. Chose to perhaps to keep her position, but maybe just to fucking watch her burn. I have no idea. Yeah. But it was overly willfully malicious.

17:29Oti: It was, it was.

17:30KT: And there was also the article, um, about Krista that was leading up to the deposition as well

17:36Oti: Mm-hmm.

17:37KT: with all of the predatory accusations. I think they might have also pulled interviews from other, um, women as well, um, in that too. And I guess she felt like she could hide behind it. Um, I, I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about this theme about the predator's new clothes. What do you think?

17:54Oti: A hundred percent. I think one of the things that this movie made me feel is it felt as if it was being acted at me. And even though I could appreciate what was being put forward, it's more, it just didn't connect. And one of the reasons is it's like getting a movie. or Imagine doing Spotlight, but it's not, but it's not based off the Boston Globe You, but it's more getting it from the clergy or the church.

18:19Oti: I'm like, yeah, no one wants to see that point of view. Yeah. I don't, I don't wanna like see that shit.

18:23KT: It'll be like 30 seconds. Everyone's all good. Don't worry. We're

18:26Oti: We're all good. We chill. Nothing happened. Yeah. Um, but

18:31KT: you talk to your pope by the way? homosexuality is a, is a sin even though it's not a crime.

18:37Oti: Uh, I can't even, man, I cannot you know how I felt about The Two Popes with your, with your fanfare.

18:44KT: oh, I love The Two Popes.

18:45Oti: I cannot disconnect my emotions from shit like that. So . So coming back to Tár, I didn't understand what the purpose of this movie was.

18:54KT: Well, it was to sympathize or giggle. Gaggle with a predator. That's what

18:58Oti: Like even,

18:59KT: It wasn't to catch a predator. It was to giggle With a predator,

19:02Oti: I can take a step back, I can pull myself out of it and see, try and look at it from an actual, you know, even if it's from the base level, like what's the takeaway from.

19:13KT: But can I ask you, if Tár was a man, would you do this mental gymnastics?

19:18Oti: No. Yeah. Maybe not. Maybe not. This movie doesn't get made.

19:21KT: I think so. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about maintaining the power structures, and this is where we would bring in her professor when she gave him the hypothetical of, you know, if something were to resurface again, it, it got a lot of giggles in the cinema when he was like, oh, he wouldn't go unscathed in any sort of scandal.

19:42Oti: Mm-hmm.

19:43KT: And I'm just like, why are we laughing at this man expressing that he's absolutely harassed, if not abused his students as well. Why are we laughing at Like, I guess the, what I'm trying to put across friends and lovers is, you know, you always hear the word systemic. This is absolutely where it filters in Tár's a woman, but she still carries on the same power and the same prestige.

20:09KT: She still gets insulated by the same privilege that her professor did, and she's no different in trying to evade the accountability of the persistence, uh, of the deposition with Krista. Can we also point out as well, while this is all going on, while she is reading the emails that she sent and trying to delete it, she's also pursuing Olga as well. Like it's just wild.

20:36Oti: Yeah. She can't turn it off. Not for the laugh of her. You know, even in the middle of all that, she still feels like she has to, she's still a predator. Yeah. Within all that, she's still, you know, for ghe, her. The fact that the wife was there and she gave us so, such a annoying look. Yeah. Like not again, you're not doing this again. I like, I've had that conversation before. Yeah. You know,

20:56KT: she, she's like Anthony Weiner's wife.

20:59Oti: Yeah. At some point

21:01KT: in the press conferences. Standing behind.

21:05Oti: Yeah. Oh man, that's

21:07KT: was done dirty. Absolutely.

21:08Oti: Yeah. There was very little that could have been done in this movie to me to enjoy it in any sort of way. Um, I think the tone was set off really early in what I was to expect and what was trans, what transpired. And you know what? I can sit here and say not every movie is for everyone. The people who out there who absolutely love this, it's got some Oscar noms more power.

21:29KT: I, I do. I am new to Cate Blanchett's performances in film. And I do wanna put it on the record officially on this podcast that you're absolutely right. Um, I don't play piano, but it seemed like there were enough close up shots to see that she learnt or relearn how to play piano. Cuz I wouldn't be surprised that Blanchett would already have periphery of learning how to play piano. Her speaking German. And it wasn't just like two lines here and there, like she was fully.

21:59KT: In that she put her whole body into conducting the say the same way that you see tennis people put their whole body into the racket. Like the performance that she brought to this film was undeniable, but it also didn't elevate the overwhelming flaws inside of this. And you're absolutely right there, there wasn't any sort of resonance and it wasn't necessarily clear cut as well where we were going.

22:25KT: I don't necessarily, I didn't necessarily feel indeed to Tár's character. Um, and I guess that was reinforced by the time that we met Max. I'm like, fuck off, please. This lady can fuck off. But it, it did remind me a bit of Sam Levinson. Um, in Malcolm & Marie, I'm just bringing out the greatest hits of people writing experiences that aren't their, John David Washington and Zendaya, like you can see on the screen, they've got black actors, but you know who's writing with their.

22:53KT: You see what I'm saying? Like, and it felt very, it felt like Pierce from Community trying to write a screenplay,

23:00Oti: Wow.

23:01KT: Like some of the dialogue that Tár was saying to Max. I'm like, Chevy Chase, is that you? Are you well, are you on a Lampoon? Are you okay? Um, like it was overly, like it's the way that the Fox News would portray the left, you know what I mean?

23:17KT: Like, it was really going out its way to point its finger and be like, haha, you are too emotional. You've got feelings about everything. And it's like, let's have a proper balanced screenplay if you really, really want to go there. How about humanize your non-white characters? Um, and you know, Sebastian, who I don't know if.

23:38KT: Tár got sick of him, or genuinely he was, you know, being put out to pasture. But there was the moment when Tár was, I, I was actually surprised that she did it in a soft way. I was surprised she didn't just say, you're out,

23:50Oti: right? Mm-hmm.

23:51KT: Mm-hmm. . Um, but when she was very softly trying to break the news to Sebastian, he pulled her up on her integrity. Mm-hmm. and it's like, wow, these people knew

24:01Oti: they knew, they

24:01KT: people been complic. Like they just, they just be seen. But to be fair, even when, um, even when Tár was like giving Olga all of that attention, everyone was

24:14Oti: Mm,

24:14KT: Mm, like, and as the scenes go went on, she was more brazen, you know, with her affection and the attention. And even Sharon, like, I was uncomfortable watching Sharon watch it.

24:24Oti: Yeah. So, uh, I have a question. Like, I don't know much about conducting, you know, from my days as a,

24:31KT: You think I

24:31Oti: yeah, from, from my days in a, in a, in, in a church choir, the conductor always was in the background. You know, Tár felt very, you know, it's all about me making grunting noise as well. I'm like, Bro. What? What is this?

24:45KT: I think that grunting was after she fell down. I don't think she always does this.

24:49Oti: No, no. There was like this passionate scene. I think it's even used in the poster. Oh

24:53KT: yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:55Oti: You know, swinging that stick as if there's no tomorrow. Yeah. And grunting her life away. Like what is this?

25:03KT: Maybe she's the grubby, grubby teacher of Doc os. In Hogwarts but like, there were so many instances, um, and I wanna come back to, you know, Max's allergies, and I hate how derogatory and pejorative that is because again, from, from what I can see, It's all very much from a pr, not just white, but it's from a very privileged point of view, making caricatures of the BIPOC sort of experience.

25:34KT: Meet me in the dms if you want my opinion on the actual term BIPOC, but for now, um, let's focus on Max. I just like, I didn't care for it and we actually didn't answer the question. What do you think about talent and identity and what it should be based on?

25:49Oti: we can't deny someone's talent, but if you, if you suck, then you can get in the bin with your talent. It doesn't matter.

25:56Oti: You know, the end always justifies a bloody means, and I'm that sort of person. So if you get there and you've, you've connived, you've, you've stabbed people in along the way. Nah, nah, that's not for me. You don't, you don't do that.

26:11KT: Yeah. And the reason why, um, I, I absolutely agree with you too. Um, I would also say that, you know, whatever people believe or want to think about their hero Bach, um, is absolutely up to them. But what I'm more interested in, what I would push more for is the acknowledgement of the privilege and the continued power of those, and that had the liberties to be creating this art and music when the rest of the world was being colon.

26:40Oti: True.

26:41KT: how great were the Amazonians that you can pick aesthetics through there, but you are going to go and get their fucking accolades. You see what I'm saying?

26:47Oti: Yeah.

26:48KT: So that's kind of something that I want to point to, um, in regards to the power structure because Tár says these things, but she also uses this as well, like she acts like they're winy, whiny PC babies, but she's also a PC baby as well. When she talks about gender bias. When she talks about artists, they can't help but be typecast at the start of the film.

27:11KT: She said that in the Q&A. Right. And also when she was talking to a professor, it might have been just before or just after, she was trying to get his inklings of like, what do I do? I'm about to get busted. Um, sort of scandal. She, you know, he said something about a particular conductor or or whoever it was, and she retorted. Didn't that composer push a woman down the.

27:37Oti: Mm-hmm.

27:37KT: which, cool, but based on that, shouldn't you say fuck you to that woman because it, his talent is more important and you shouldn't base it. If you are gonna base it on Max as a young black man, then you can't have it both ways, right? So we should ignore the woman being pushed down the stairs because the composer's talent is more important. And also, if you were abusing that woman, you wouldn't even care if she went down the.

28:01Oti: So true.

28:01KT: I, I don't wanna overemphasize because perhaps I need to watch this again and I'm not gon, I'm not just gonna do it for the sake of getting clarification on this scene, but Todd did make some weird comments about gender, um, and also non-binary and trans people.

28:19KT: It was also a, a, a bathroom scene that. Stands to question, but again, I would have to re-watch the film to get the nuance, but I also don't care for it. And there are many problematic things about her that I didn't care for. Um, what I will say that I was absolutely sure on, and this is definitely on the lower.

28:39KT: Sort of end of, you know, my qualms, quarrels and quandaries with Tár's character. But when, um, when the, when her neighbors were kindly nicely asking her, you know, you know, when, when do you think you'll be making your music so we can make sure we schedule the viewings to sell the apartment around it? She was really petty.

29:03Oti: Mm-hmm.

29:03KT: Making all of that noise. And I don't know, like, I don't know if I'm supposed to have sympathy for her or what she's going through, but really a lot of it was self-imposed. And to me that just like, it pretty much just sealed the deal with how like selfish she was. Um, I just wanted to give some love and accolades to Tony the brother.

29:25KT: Um, you could tell that Lydia Tár had a fractured, I guess is a generous way of saying it, you know, with her family. So when everything went to shit and she ran home, her brother was very nonchalant about it. Um, and we even learned that her name was Linda. Before she ran off and created a new life for herself, which is absolutely fine because you know, we talk about family dynamics and how it can fuck you up and all that sort of thing.

29:52KT: Um, but I just really enjoyed that moment because again, it gave some extra layers to, I would say the shittiness of her character.

30:00Oti: Yeah. There was no salvaging her character at all in this movie.

30:06KT: It was a spicy one. Oti.

30:08Oti: Yeah.

30:09KT: You can call me many things, but when it comes to predators, friends and lovers, I am consistent. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call play reference, Oti.

30:20Oti: I'm gonna reference Whiplash.

30:22KT: Nice. I am going to reference She Said, for many of the reasons that we described today, and also it didn't overstate its importance. You know, if you'd like to have a very matured and nuanced online discourse about this film on Twitter and Instagram, where a, for your f1.

30:40Oti: write us an email or hello podcast.com.

30:42KT: We're also on Tony Tár for President Podcast if you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week for our For Your Reference Degustation.

30:53Oti: See ya.

30:54KT: Bye.