Swagger – 24 hour Icon

Full transcript of Swagger – 24 hour Icon.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and I want to try a new curated reference edition, Oti. We do do a sport sometime. So check out our Bend It Like Beckham episodes, check out, uh, Tristan Mack Wilds. The owner of it all, we do have, uh, two episodes about The Wire, shout outs to Daddy Cube. We do have Boyz n the Hood, as well. It'll be interesting to talk about, O'Shea's performance in this show and just always love and Splooshies to Orlando Jones, but we don't have an American Gods episode and I guess Orlando Jones can tell you why.

0:39KT: We're on that Anansi train. Friends and lovers, let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and apocalypse Annie. Lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT, and the icon Living,

1:00KT: you the icon Chilling. Oh.

1:01Oti: Oh, both.

1:03KT: Oh, it feels good. Are you excited for this episode?

1:06Oti: I am. It's been a while.

1:08KT: It's going to be good friends and lovers. We're going to get into general, information in regards to the show, but before then, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, by love, by love,

1:22Oti: Baila! Ridiculous.

1:24KT: Are you Puerto Rican? I'm a Puerto

1:26Oti: Rican hair.

1:30KT: we don't, we don't usually do this, friends and lovers. but there's so much love that is poured into this show. I do want to get through as many directors and writers as I can before we get to the A star cast that we have. Obviously love and Splooshies, based on the life of Kevin Durant. In regards to directors, we have Reggie Rock Bythewood, Alex Hall, Nijla Mu'min, Janice Cooke, Rachel Leiterman, Matthew A. Cherry, the Hair Love of it all. I'm very excited. Are you excited for Young Love?

2:01Oti: Mm

2:02KT: Katina Medina Mora in regards to the writers of Swagger. We have Reggie Rock Bythewood, George Doman, Steve D'Urbaldo, Hector Olivares Garcia, Nijla Mu'min, Katrina O'Gilv, Raquel Baker, Autumn Joy Jimerson, Rebecca Merger, Samantha Corbin Miller, Daniel Iman. Eric Sommonsen, Norman Vance Jr, J. M. Holmes, as well as Joy Keckin.

2:35Oti: Mm hmm. A lot of talented people out there.

2:37KT: Oh, absolutely. the first Season was released in October of 2021. and season two has just wrapped up, but was released in June of 2020 out of Apple. Wow.

2:49Oti: Wow, indeed.

2:50KT: Navigate the school halls and family expectations where friendship is the real MVP. Step onto the court with seasons one and two of Swagger this week. Ooh, are you ready to give us some first impressions Oti?

3:06Oti: Oh, ready as I'll ever be. So are we going to break it down to seasons or are we going to give an overall impression?

3:15KT: I think I, they definitely function as two seasons. So I think that's the way to do it.

3:21Oti: All right, here's my season one. Swagger delves deep into youth basketball's intricate dynamics. Mid-season tonal shift was surprising, yet it effectively tackles hard-hitting subjects. Highly recommended.

3:35KT: Surprising. Interesting.

3:37Oti: I didn't see it!

3:38KT: No, but I think,

3:40Oti: You know what? I think I went in expecting something different and I got it up until it decided to snap it off.

3:48KT: Peele reference. Very nice. You understand the audience. Yes, but okay. So, so I don't want to I do just want to point out. This is about young black athletes. So even at the intersection, there's bound to be layers that you would get as opposed to like a Degrassi. I

4:08Oti: I know what I was expecting and I think just seeing it made it feel not much different.

4:13KT: Hold on to it, Oti. I've definitely got some tasty themes on the way, but can I just spoiler alert my season one summary? I think it was a perfect season.

4:22Oti: Oh, oh,

4:23KT: Oh, maybe KT's sipping juice in the hood. Who knows? Where some focus on telling stories, Reggie and the team focus on showing people. The struggles, come up and triumphs. Based on a living legend, Swagger introduces us to so many more in and out of the court. Yeah.

4:44Oti: I agree with that. You were shocked that I said it felt surprising because we deal with a lot of stuff. Even when we get into the Crystal aspect of it all, I didn't see that coming, you know? I didn't see that being dissected and discussed the way it was in the show.

5:00KT: But it was done with so much love and so much care and I'm glad that it's in the show. And I feel like season one was very insular. While there was an unexpected, or I guess you wouldn't expect or need it from a show that can appeal to everyone, but also has a young sort of target audience. it's, I'm glad that it went there, but I also feel like the themes that were introduced in season one definitely had a satisfying end. Well, I guess that that's a great segue to get into season two.

5:31Oti: Yes. So for season two, I had shining a light on personal growth, both on and off the court. Swagger has become an essential fixture in our household. The series stands as something cherished, hinting at a gateway to something profound. I appreciated the direction they took in season two. It felt lived in. We saw them grow from kids to adults. I want more of Swagger.

6:00KT: Uh huh.

6:01Oti: I think I need more Swagger.

6:02KT: Hashtag renew Swagger, yes.

6:05Oti: yes. Yeah, Season 3 is just a, it has to happen.

6:09KT: It has

6:09Oti: It has to happen.

6:10KT: Just like Ike has to follow Jace everywhere. Like, it just, it just has to happen. Season 2 builds on the impressive visuals and expands its focus on more characters and their journeys. There were important existing and new themes to explore that I'm hoping can be addressed in the next season. Don't you love how both of our Rotten Tomatoes quotes are mentioning we would like more, please? Respectfully and disrespectfully, give it to us right now.

6:42Oti: Oh, mm hmm.

6:45KT: Well, I am so excited to talk about this show, Oti, and I guess if we can also reference now, Winning Time, is also a lot of fun as well. I learned the rules of sports through watching Swagger, Winning Time, and The Last Dance, which was also referenced by the guys as well, I believe in season one. When they were in the pools. so I, I don't really have like any sort of stake in the basketball sort of world. So I would love just to hear a little bit of context about you. Did the NBA make a big impression on Kenyan shores? Were you into NBA? Are you into it now? Give us it all. And I guess also about Kevin Durant as well.

7:28Oti: Oh yeah. Uh, it was definitely big growing up. I think during the Jordan era, it got a lot of fans, saw a lot of people in this Sunday afternoon, you know, ducking to their homes and watching NBA. I think what I fell off a bit, but what brought me back was sort of the Kobe Shaq combo. And then I fell off again, but I'm up now I'm trying to get back into watching more. I didn't know this was based off KD.

7:56KT: Yeah. Oh, you know, you thought it was a spinoff of Love & Basketball. Shout out to Gina Prince-Bythewood.

8:02Oti: I was perfect. Expecting Omar Epps to show up.

8:08KT: He's busy with Nia Long somewhere.

8:10Oti: Oh, a hundred

8:15KT: we have a lot to cover today, so I don't know if I remember to say it later, but while we were watching, it was particularly in season one when I was focusing, cause I couldn't understand why I kept telling him to focus on the three pointer shooting. And even though, cause from my understanding, from my very base level understanding, he was like the top player. So I didn't understand why he was given those sort of coaching points.

8:40Oti: Oh, yeah. Like it was wild watching the finals or the playoffs because everyone's just trying to do threes. You know, it feels wild. It feels like a different sport.

8:51KT: Oh, really?

8:52Oti: Not, not, not in a bad way. I think times change. And if you're not doing threes, what are you?

8:58KT: My bad. speaking of, do you think you could take Orlando Jones one on one on the court?

9:04Oti: Not even be cheating like that.

9:07KT: It wasn't revealed until very late of the,

9:10Oti: Oh, he knows.

9:13KT: I guess, you know, talking about basketball, um, it's not basketball, it's more football. I'm referencing that film National Champions. where they talk about, the exploitative sort of contracts that happen in the NFL. you know, even if you don't like, if you don't even get signed, even if you get injured, what that can mean. and I kind of want to talk about it. In Swagger, because it was explored in regards to the potential exploitation, of players. I guess I, we can also reference the Adam Sandler, not so great. I guess I need a safty Adam Sandler because that movie was very boring. But that, but you know what I mean?

9:54KT: Like you travel, you travel all the way to find the best sort of talent. Right. but there's, there's the sort of shady exploitative, sort of practices that can go on. And I guess I want to explore this as it was explored in Swagger. I called it signing the deal with the devil. But I'm not saying that because, the coach was white or you could say signing and deal with the white devil. But I want to talk about, Nick Mendez and, you know, him potentially signing his life away. and shout outs to Mother Teresa. Loving and blessings. And like, I want to talk about that scene in a second, but I kind of just want a little bit of your feelings about, you know, exploitative sort of contracts that might lock in, you know, this, this really, promising talent in Nick Mendez from Puerto Rico coming into the U S and having this sort of situation and storyline explored in the show.

10:50Oti: seen it covered in Bel-Air. and not even just, I think later, earlier this week, we just heard about The Blind Side

10:56KT: Bel-Air.

11:01Oti: story. You know, it's literally the same thing. Conservatorship, you want to take over. You have all the life rights to this guy. You can make all the decisions. You can probably get all the money and shift, stiff him up. It's wild.

11:16KT: You know what the problem with white savior movies is it's created by white saviors. Now, going back to signing the deal with the white devil,

11:23Oti: really did?

11:26KT: that's called a callback. That's called an alley oop. That's called a layup friends and lovers references. Motherfucker. Do you speak it? But let's talk about that scene because that was, you know, this show got us very emotional many times throughout. Some of them were like heartbreaking, like this particular scene, but there were many other scenes that were very hopeful and very joyful, as well. But. I want to talk about this scene because, you know, for a lot of us that are migrants or like children of migrants that come into Western countries, us here or Australia, for example, there, there's a certain sort of cadence that if you have an accent, that isn't a Western sort of accent that you don't understand, or you're simple, or you could be exploited.

12:17KT: And this is what we see with Teresa. With Nick's mom. And I was, I was getting so upset watching the scene because you have, you have this coach just trying to, you know, Oh, you know, everything's fine. Just sign it, just sign it. And even her asking very simple questions of if I signed this, do you not need to ask me anything? Do you have control over everything? You can sign him over to other teams and that sort of thing. I'm like, fucking yeah. Come on, Mother Teresa.

12:47Oti: But he tried to sweep that under the rug. No, no, no. It just means that if I ha if he has to go to another state to play, I don't have to call you every time.

12:56KT: ha ha! He was trying to New York.

13:01Oti: Oh, yeah, he was trying to hitch his ride to Nick

13:04KT: Oh yeah.

13:05Oti: and I'm so glad they handle it that way because I am tired of seeing people getting swindled like that.

13:12KT: Okay, Django Oti. But yeah, because they definitely, if they, if it was chosen for Nick's storyline to be that way, then that would also feel real and true. But also I'm glad in that moment. That the writers, uh, the performer, like everyone just decided this was going to be the storyline. Not today, Satan.

13:36Oti: not today

13:37KT: Not today, white savior Satan. We got Meg, we got some good ones, so we'll come to Meg in a second. Um. Still in signing the deal with the devil. It's not necessarily in regards to contracts, but it is contracts adjacent. I want to talk about, I guess the Naruto and the Sasuke, the Scorpion, the Sub Zero, the Goku and the Vegeta of it all. We have Ike versus Les.

14:07KT: So again, it's not necessarily succinctly about the contract, but it did talk about their futures and potentially jeopardizing it. We've already said spoilers. I want to explore this whole storyline because it became such a core part of the focus of the show.

14:25Oti: It did become such a core part to the point where I felt I couldn't understand regardless of what Ike did, to my mind, as a high schooler meant shit all to who he is right now as a man.

14:39KT: Well, no, that

14:40Oti: no, no, no, no, because I can accept Ike saying, I want you to be 24 hour people, not because he hasn't made mistakes, not because, Oh, I threw a game, but they made it so pivotal to the core of who it is and what it means of a person he is right now that he can't be anything other than a fraud.

15:02KT: Well, there's a little bit about sins of the father, but then there's also a little bit of, I absolutely agree with you. The, I guess I wouldn't say the overreaction, but the treatment and the challenging of Ike wasn't to the level, like it wasn't a believable level to me.

15:20Oti: And I think this is where, I love, I understood Jenna as a character.

15:26KT: And on, I'm still gonna call it Twitter, friends and lovers. it was very useful during the Alabama, brawl, but I'm still gonna call it Twitter, right? but there was on spaces. We had Reggie on there. Matthew Cherry was on there. and I think some other part of the cast and crew, were on there. And also shout outs to Spill. There was live watching on Spill, as well, but it was so interesting because a really avid fan of Swagger was saying they didn't like Jenna at all. And that was not the experience for the both of us. We loved her. We understood her

15:58Oti: We understood her, but I still had qualms.

16:01KT: Of course. Like

16:01Oti: she took the Ike thing and ran with it. To the point where I felt it's becoming detrimental. To you, how your son progresses. And I can understand the over protectiveness of you wanting you, you, she's hustled all her life for kids without any help. And she always wants the best. I cannot fault any of that, but how she grabbed that Ike thing, it just felt out of nowhere.

16:30KT: I feel like if we're talking about like what the main sort of conflicts that they wanted to explore in the show, I don't think it was necessarily that strong. And again, friends and lovers, if we're. If we're talking about decisions and, you know, you say, don't judge him by the decisions that he made. I had a little bit of a asterisk there, and we'll come to that in a second. But if we're talking about making hard choices that you would say that you would never do. If we're talking about, you know, like if you, if you squander this opportunity, you're never going to get it again, if we're talking about, you know, there were even like very natural ways of Jenna talking about trying to Move out of where they live.

17:13KT: So they were in a safer sort of area so the cops wouldn't roll up on them when, you know, Jace's putting rubbish in the bin. Right. So it was, it was done in a very, natural way in the show. But if we ain't talking about systems, we ain't talking about nothing, baby. That's what I'm saying. And the reason why I bring that in is when Ike and Les had made that decision. or when they came to that point in that night, it wasn't for people to judge that because this wasn't a situation that everyone would have to go through. And it isn't a decision that everyone would have to make, you know?

17:49Oti: Yeah, it's not, but And I get There was a bit of exposition on the part where, of why Jenna was acting like this, particularly to Ike and it had to tie into Jace, his father and the relationship he was, he was yearning for. And I could see that. I could see Jenna being like, nah, man, you don't need no man in your life. You have me. I can be everything for you.

18:12KT: Do you think that's what it was?

18:13Oti: They hinted I could pull that string and I couldn't understand that.

18:17KT: don't think it was like, I don't think it was a over dependent. I think it was just her being over protective.

18:22Oti: A bit of Column A, Column B maybe?

18:24KT: I think what we're both agreeing on is that storyline wasn't compelling enough to be such a core conflict in the show. because Yeah, yeah. I think, I think I would've enjoyed seeing Jenna date more to the level of like, Jada from The Chi

18:42Oti: Jada's

18:43KT: Jada's got

18:44Oti: in a groove back.

18:46KT: she moving mad fan but let's, let's move on. We're going to move on to a more serious sort of topic. We're not going to go into a lot of detail about it. But I just want to put a trigger warning here, friends and lovers about sexual assault, particularly in regards to, the sport sort of industry, especially in regards to young sort of athletes. we're not going to go into a lot of detail, but I do just want to put it there. let's talk about Crystal. you, you kind of already. mentioned it earlier. I just want to open up again by saying, I love that this was explored in this show. I did, I did make a joke about Degrassi, but I feel like, you know, the purpose of a show like Degrassi is a way for young kids to be able to Understand the world a bit better and understand themselves a bit better, in order to have that sort of dialogue.

19:43KT: and you know, we've already made reference to The Chi. We've already made reference to Bel-Air as well. and then the, these are shows that are more closely aligned to the characters that are being portrayed on the screen as well. So, you know, if you talk about like the adults, like She Said, I, I reference a lot and I commend a lot in the way that it portrayed, Particularly the scenes, like the actual scenes of the assault. it's done in a way where you don't need to, and you shouldn't need to because it becomes exploitative at that point, to see every little detail because you know, what's happening. It's more about how it affects the character and how they're able to deal with it if they have any sort of support.

20:25KT: and I just really want to commend the show, on the way that it was done.

20:30Oti: It was very squeamish watching that and knowing where it was going. That's what I was like, brah, this is, this is gonna be hard.

20:39KT: I guess for a different sort of, uh, flavor, if you have access to it, Friends and Lovers, there is a great New Zealand show, that has two seasons called Head High, and it's about rugby, and they had, they, they have a similar sort of storyline that gets explored in that, and it's interesting to see the decisions of TV shows, and narratives of, If they're going to take the approach, like say, for example, when we talked about Nick Mendez and Teresa not signing the contract, so you get a good sort of outcome out of that, and, and how shows or even in, you know, Crystal sort of case, like she got the help she needed, she got the support she needed, but sometimes there are instances where that doesn't work out.

21:19KT: and I think that also focuses on the centering of young black lives and experiences in Swagger. It was important to have that. I think what I would also say about, this particular theme that was explored was it kind of got out of hand for me. And what I mean by that is if we're talking about. The actual approach to the subject matter, I think it did such a great job. You also see that, you know, it's not just her testimony, but there are three testimonies, and the way that she's able, like, obviously for us, from an audience point of view, it does get very uncomfortable and we just want it to be okay.

21:59KT: We want to hold it. We want to tell her everything's going to be okay. But from a story point of view, like we know there's, there's going to be like some back and forth, so that's fine. But we did get to a point where. You know, she shared that information with Jace. She was able to share it with her family. She was able to, you know, confront it in a very healthy way. so from that point of view, I think it's done really well. What I didn't care for was the whole introduction of the journalist in season two.

22:32KT: Are we doing that though?

22:34Oti: black teens out there. You know that it was always going to come back. It was never really resolved. That guy got two years. Or out in one or some probation shit. But

22:48KT: just say, like, it's, it would be so interesting to know the decisions that were made in regards to how it was approached. I understand that there needed to be a key point of contention for the group. and this, this would make sense because they had already introduced it, earlier in the series. I understand that, but like, everyone seemed to want the comeuppance that you're saying, and can I just say, it's a weird flex to want to stand up with the predator. That's all I'm saying.

23:20Oti: It is. It is. Those tweets or whatever the hell they were, I could not understand the nonsense of that.

23:26KT: Like it makes no sense. And it wasn't as if it wasn't as if it wasn't proven in court. It wasn't as if

23:33Oti: Man was jailed! Multiple Multiple people came out. Yeah. And people are here, Oh, taking justice into their own hands? Fucking stupid kids. Of course they do this.

23:57Oti: They did that at 14. Yeah. And the thing that really got me was when Crystal was like, Jace was there when every fucking adult in her life wasn't.

24:09KT: Yeah, bye fucking nerd. What was that boyfriend's name? Fucking Leonard Eugene motherfucker.

24:17Oti: Oh man, the anti Jace was strong.

24:22KT: No, but it's just like, but even if you just sit here and you look at the optics of it, it made no sense. Like yeah, private schools, but let's be real friends and lovers. If their name is on a donation building, that story is getting swept under the rug. We talked about Bama Rush, that documentary where it talked about the rife sexual assaults that happened on campus. You know, eventually we'll talk about Higher Learning, as well. John Singleton, rest in love and peace and power. But it's like, let's be fucking real about this.

24:57KT: Yeah. No, no, no. But let's focus on the young black kids that beat him up. Fuck off.

25:03Oti: Nonsense. Nonsense.

25:07KT: Like, you didn't say nothin

25:11Oti: Yeah, like I didn't, I expected it from the school Lauren. I did not expect it from the society the way it was.

25:19KT: Cause we live in a society, Joker reference.

25:23Oti: Like not coming too hard, knowing. And he was 14. What the fuck did you want him to do? Yeah,

25:29KT: he was 14. His best friend came to him and told him this unimaginable shit.

25:34Oti: You as a grown ass person would not even know how to deal with that fucking shit right now. Yeah. Put that on a 14 year old. What the fuck do you think they'll do?

25:41KT: Yeah. Oh, and can we talk a little bit for a second about the mom? Huh? I don't know. Like, maybe this was a way to, like, maybe this was a way to portray. Cause I get it. I understand. Like even growing up with my parents, like they're just too tired to discipline you. So they will take the easy, catch these Will Smith hands road. Right. Or sometimes they're just so busy. They're not even paying attention to you and the teenage sort of troubles. But this was some real shit that she was going through. You know what I mean? So I get that. Maybe that was the intention, but like for us as an audience, because we know that she's going through it, we're like begging the mom to see her in that moment.

26:20Oti: Look at her! The coach's hugging her there with you all present. You can see her fucking face. Look! Pay attention! Your daughter's not going, your daughter's starting to fail out of nowhere. She's missing basketball lessons. She's Just pay attention. I don't know. I felt like I was so frustrated. I was so frustrated and I get it. Crystal didn't say anything. You can't, I don't, I don't care. The,

26:51KT: something, be a

26:52Oti: the parent.

26:54KT: Jinx. I don't know. The introduction of a journalist was very, the introduction of a journalist was interesting because now that I think of it, authorities don't really, they're not really embedded in the story of these children. Does that make sense? Like, it's not like a story of The Wire, shout out to Mack Wilds again, where it's a part of the story and it's a part of the TV show. Like we didn't have that. So to have a journalist, again, that outside sort of lens coming in, I'm like, bury that CCTV. No one needs to see it. Who cares? Just

27:26Oti: For your bloody headline? No one bloody cares. Exactly. Bury that. And she was apparently the one who covered the story in the first place.

27:35KT: Who asked?

27:36Oti: So you're coming full circle and trying to put some four black teens in jail?

27:40KT: Yeah. Well, yeah, Drew there.

27:42Oti: that. It's black.

27:43KT: Oh, wow. Ha! You be dollarzolling out in these streets.

27:51Oti: Like, yeah, I'm with you on that. That was some nonsense.

27:55KT: I think the last thing I would say on this before we move on to another theme is I intrinsically, and I guess I always see American shows say it, categorically believe that children and young people shouldn't be locked up. We'll talk about incarceration in a second, but I've mentioned that a lot when we talk about First Nations, Indigenous, Pasifika stuff, but just in general, I don't think kids should be locked up. I'm not Kim K, but I'm all about exoneration, Oti. That's what she's known for, right?

28:27Oti: Yep.

28:28KT: Get off your ass and work, Oti.

28:30Oti: I'm trying.

28:32KT: Let's move on to the next theme. Black Lives Matter. So there's also COVID, as a part of this, but I want to focus on this. Obviously we have the diner scene as well. I love the way that. The show explored not just the black experience, but the many experiences that young black people can go through.

28:53Oti: He's analytical minded and telling me

28:54KT: don't get me started on Royale. I'm already getting frustrated. His analytical mind didn't tell him to shut the fuck up in that locker room. But we'll get there, and I guess what it means to stand in solidarity with black people. And I guess I'm talking about Nick as well as Drew. but let's talk about the way that this show centered, loved, nurtured, but also made aware the differences of young black lives.

29:21Oti: I was so scared when Phil came out of the bathroom and jumped behind them. I was like, don't you fucking dare shoot him because I cannot deal with that in this

29:30KT: We're flying to America and we're fighting.

29:35Oti: I do not need that. I was like, Oh, don't you go there.

29:39KT: Yeah.

29:39Oti: Fuck it. Hell. It was some ridiculous shit going on there. Like it happens. You can tell this. This guy is just, I don't even know, man, like at

29:50KT: couldn't even just have a meal before the cops got called. What was a disturbance or some shit? Yeah.

29:56Oti: What's your fucking problem calling cops on people eating food and what's with the cops finding people that are eating legally and having to threaten them with fucking shooting them for what you know some things you see and you're like oh my god you're trying to separate it oh it's just a tv show back in the day right now we're all fully aware this fucking shit is real

30:20KT: Just say you were praying to your Kenyan ancestors when the Alabama brawl was happening. Just say that. Bro, the release. The release. I just

30:33Oti: Uh, like you just don't understand. No, you do, but why. Yeah. You, you know why? It's, it's one of those frustrating things that sadly the kids have to go through, just had a similar experience when he was just taking trash. Uh, from his house and was being accused that he, someone like him was around that stole a car. I'm like, bro.

30:57KT: But it didn't even matter though. We'll just say that anyway. And I think that's part of the fucking frustrating

31:01Oti: And the worst part is, there was a fucking black cop there.

31:05KT: Andre wasn't the worst black cop.

31:07Oti: Miss me with that Black and Blue nonsense, man. Fucking hell.

31:10KT: that a Tyrese and Naomie Harris reference?

31:13Oti: Yes, it is

31:14KT: Tyrese, Tyrese be suing though. When did this become the black pop culture and news segment? I don't know. I, I, I think, You know, I think it's important that through arts and through creativity, you know, we, the proverbial, we can continue to talk about the treatment of black people, especially in America. particularly when you talk about states like Florida, right.

31:45KT: It's, it's becoming more than a peripheral sort of danger. It's a very real danger and it's very tangible and it's very now. and I love the way the show that explores it. You know, it's, it's so much like my kid's too young to understand race. And it's like, no, your kid is young enough to have the privilege not to think about race. Why are you making everything about race? How about the fact that the U. S. was built on stolen land and the backs of black labor? How about that? So you might not see the color but you can see yourself sitting in the shade and reaping the benefits. Kudos on the way COVID was, portrayed in the show. I believe it was when we were listening to the Spaces, they were talking about our beautiful, lovely Musa, who's played by Caleb McLaughlin.

32:35KT: and Reggie was talking about how, you know, obviously COVID. Is still happening. but when it was, you know, when it was first new, and it was all very scary and we didn't know what was happening. He talked about how Caleb wasn't necessarily comfortable coming back on set when it was time to come back on set. So his storyline ended up being a way to keep him in the show, but also respecting and understanding that it wasn't safe for him and also in general.

33:13KT: I,

33:14Oti: I made up a story. I was drawing the lines over here, but you know what? It makes sense.

33:20KT: I thought it was the storyline of Tracy Jordan in 30 Rock, like pretending he was in Africa, but he was still in New York. But uh, you know, we have other real things to talk about, but the interesting thing when we're getting to the end of season two, like Naeem and Ike definitely needed to have that brotherhood. Like they needed to have that real talk, but I would also say, I don't think that, Musa proved that he needed, like that proved that he could handle more minutes because as far as we knew when he was away, he wasn't playing basketball anyway.

33:57Oti: Nah!

33:58KT: So maybe from a skill point of view, CJ would be the one.

34:01Oti: He missed the whole, even half of the season, uh, playing basketball.

34:06Oti: So he only came up in season two and I was like, of course you're gonna be dropped

34:09KT: Are you calling, are you calling Musa a nepo baby?

34:12Oti: Yeah, and I ain't been throwing up.

34:17KT: Oh, but what a beautiful display of love between a black father and his son.

34:24Oti: Yeah, that was, that was, that was good man. it's one of those relationships you feel like, hmm, if only

34:32KT: Just tell us you're using Mrs. Therapy without telling us, Oti.

34:37KT: How come my daddy don't love me no more, man? This show was able to achieve that emotion from the OG Fresh Prince so many times throughout the series, and ways that had so many rewards as well. Like, it was such a grounded, it was such a grounded show.

34:59Oti: I think it's, it's the, it's the relationships, you know, they felt, they felt lived in. They felt authentic. and just how how, are we going to get to Ike? Cause you, you said some mad things while we were watching that. I was expecting for you to say something.

35:19KT: I see what you're doing, Oti, because I said what I said, and I'll say it again about John David Washington. Oh, actually, no, we're talking about nepo babies. John David Washington, even without the legacy of the Washington name, I think he's just OK. And I think O'Shea is a part of that trophy case of just OK.

35:45KT: You just wanted, you just wanted me to put it out there.

35:48Oti: Yeah, cause you, you were watching. You're like, bro. I

35:52KT: I just, I was like, I don't, like, I'm just not like he's doing it, but he's not Ariana DeBose doing the thing. He's just doing it.

36:00Oti: He was doing the thing for me,

36:02KT: But is he doing it and doing it and doing it well?

36:04Oti: Of course.

36:07KT: Like, I just like, I, he really, he, like, he really won me over by the end of season two. especially, you know, we'll come to that last scene of season two and it was very emotional. but yeah, is that okay? Does it need to be steeped into context, but, or can I just say that I don't, I don't necessarily care for him at the start. Is that okay?

36:32Oti: Mm hmm. Well, it's on record now, so I'm fine with it.

36:33KT: Okay.

36:37Oti: But wow, I know you mentioned that we're going to get to the ending and all that, but this sort of ties into the sort of actions of Jace. Oh, the repercussions of Jace, the actions he took when he was 14, uh, beating up the offender. Well, the, the universities that were like, I'm not gonna go for Jace anymore. You know, I'd be petty as fuck. I'd be like, bro, fuck you. I would not even want to come to UCLA. I don't fucking care.

37:05KT: see my ass.

37:06Oti: Exactly! Bloody hell, if you're not interested in me because I beat up a sexual offender when I was 14, I didn't know anything else I could do to help my friend.

37:17KT: Especially on balance when you know these institutions will try and hide actual assaults.

37:23Oti: Yeah. And then you are coming up, snooting your nose up at me.

37:28KT: fuck off.

37:29Oti: you, man. That pissed me off. And then at the end, you're like, Oh, you see, they came back for me. I'll be like, fuck you, man.

37:36KT: Be like, hell yeah, you came back, but you can fuck off. Exactly. Yeah.

37:40Oti: And I'll make sure to go to your rival school and fucking smash you to bits.

37:45KT: And as a matter of fact, where's your wife right now? I wanna fuck her too.

37:48Oti: What the fuck is that? Ike could help with

37:53KT: No thanks, but that's okay. we didn't really get a chance to talk about Jackie and I think she's such a staunch character in this, especially knowing that Jace has that support.

38:08KT: you know, there, there's, there's a moment where Jackie confronts her mom, Jenna, and she's like, you, like, it wouldn't even have been a question you wouldn't have even taken a meeting, you know, if this was a Jace thing.

38:21Oti: Oh, a hundred percent. And that was with Jackie.

38:24KT: Oh, yeah.

38:25Oti: I was like, if that was Jace's game, no way that she'd go to that meeting. She would have found a way to postpone that shit. But for Jackie, she can duck off, not even be five, 10 minutes late to catch the act.

38:39KT: Yeah. And then even afterwards when Jenna was trying to dance her, I'd be like, fuck off.

38:44Oti: Yeah. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm glad that she got to say that and to express that feeling, because I think Jenna was taking that shit for granted.

38:56KT: Yeah. Like you are gonna be

38:57Oti: you're all going to be just all goods without any consequences. Like, oh, we just got to focus on Jace. He's going to get asked to athlete thing. And then, you know, I'm going to do a few things for you, but coming to your shows, I don't

39:11KT: for yourself or don't, either way, I'm not gonna be

39:13Oti: you just got to cook for us dinner so we can focus on training Jace. I'm like, bro,

39:18KT: I, I, I was fine with all of the decisions that Jenna made except for two things, the Ike versus Les saga, and the way she treated Jackie because a lot of the, all, a lot of the decisions that Jackie made and the way that she moved made sense. And I even told you when we first started watching the show, I was like, It's so nice to see a mother, not just out of frustration, like yell at her kids or take out the frustrations of the world onto her kids, right? It was so nice to see that she had such a soft and tender love to her children. And that was really beautiful, but the whole Jackie thing, and she never really apologized for it.

39:57Oti: Yeah. And that's all sort of, I was like, you're all goods now, but you didn't own up to it. It didn't feel like you deserve that sort of, you know, she deserves it at the end of it because she's done a lot, but more in that space for you to become all buddy, buddy again. Yeah. It just felt, it felt a miss. I just wanted. I wanted her to admit, plain and simple, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. You're right. I should have focused my attentions. I have two kids and that's how it should have

40:30KT: My bad. Like that's, that's pretty much it. I, I guess we'll come to all the characters in a second. I kind of want to focus on incarceration. shout outs to the show, shout outs to the legend, John Carlos, that was in the show. It was cool seeing, you know, sometimes the episodes will show you like a behind the scenes. After the episode, so even getting to hear John talk a little bit more about the impact of his athleticism, his activism and how that feeds into the show as well, I think is a very powerful thing, but we also see Vince's character there.

41:09Oti: We do.

41:10KT: Oh, we haven't really had much time to talk about like Nick's journey. but I will say I did get frustrated when Meg and Ike were trying to woo Nick to come onto the team and it became such an easy thing to be like, yeah, Vince is going to give up 21 so Nick can have it. And I said to you, Jace would never be indulged such Hollywood nonsense. Or do you see the sentimental sort of value?

41:37Oti: No, I get the sentimental value, you know, and I think it was one of those conditions where they wanted to go to that next level and they didn't in Nick. My qualm was once Nick got into the team,

41:50Oti: man went missing. I, they didn't use him as much, or he wasn't as he wasn't, he didn't feel like he was competing with Jace anymore. Like he was as good as Jace.

42:00KT: As long as you promised me we're coming back to incarceration, I will follow you on this thread.

42:04Oti: Mm hmm.

42:05KT: Okay. it was painted as if Nick was his rival. Nick was, Nick was number one, wasn't he? Yeah,

42:11Oti: number one and two in the DMV.

42:13KT: But they were the toe to toe. They were the ones that were going to make each other better.

42:17Oti: Mm hmm.

42:17KT: And then he just becomes like a supporting character and it doesn't make sense. Like he should have been there in the times that Jace was slipping up. It didn't make sense that he wasn't as good anymore.

42:30Oti: Yeah. Oh, Jace, you can't make... I got this. Cause you're the second in DMV and then you're like, oh. And then suddenly he's just a supporting cast to Jace. Jace

42:40KT: Yeah.

42:41Oti: is doing by the whole team's crumbling.

42:43KT: Yeah. Like that, that didn't make a lot of sense. like even if it was from a story point of view, but it was introduced to us that he was that guy. And shout outs to Jason Rivera Torres because he is in real life, that guy, but yeah, I just like, you know, anime and otherwise, one of the sort of topics we love talking about is power hierarchy and based on the power hierarchy that was introduced to us, he, he didn't, he wasn't at the level that he should have been, that he was introduced to us.

43:16KT: And that didn't make sense.

43:17Oti: Yeah, that or Jace just went five more notches up and left everyone the dust. I don't It felt weird.

43:27KT: It did feel weird. but let's go back to incarceration. I have a quote from Phil. Sometimes they treat people that need help like criminals.

43:37Oti: 100%. It was sad seeing, cause they had a lot of, uh, backstory for the people already, incarcerated. Uh, all of them quite promising careers and where they wanted to go. One bad time and that's all taken away. Some of them serving bloody double digit years. I'm like, bro, you know, this is, this is the problem, man, where people can make mistakes.

44:01KT: Yeah. Should be able to make mistakes,

44:03Oti: it should not be the defining nature of you as a person that it just ends everything else.

44:10Oti: I end up, I do something wrong when I'm what, 16, 17, 16, 17, there's some young people in

44:21Oti: Yeah, facts. And it's just sad to see the state of things where we feel the need to incarcerate kids of that nature and punish them to the maximum. So that when they come out, what option do they have? Yeah. They have to declare that they've been in jail and they can't be hired anywhere else. Yeah. It's fucking nonsense, man. It's bloody nonsense. And all, I was listening to one podcast and they're talking about how they're trying to overturn that rule where you have to declare, Oh, I'm incarcerated or not. Because at the end of the day, you've served your, you've been in jail. That's fine. You've served your sentence. You should be able to be part of the member of society as normal and continue on with your life.

45:03Oti: So efforts are being made, uh, far out, but it was sad seeing that it shouldn't be like that at all.

45:10KT: Yeah, I guess that's where you also cue to Ava DuVernay's documentary, as well as cueing to like a John Oliver Last Week Tonight segment on the privatization of jails. or even, you know. In so called Australia, different States are trying to raise the age at which you incarcerate young children. Right. So this is a worldwide sort of problem and it definitely has a lot of resonance in the world of Swagger, as well. And that's also underscored by having Vince there. It puts a face to it.

45:42Oti: Yeah. Cause sometimes you can divorce yourself and think that, Oh, it's not going to happen to me. Or it's not going to happen to anyone that I know, or these people are bad or whatever, but when you see someone that's close to you, that's been there, that's there, then it's all shit, you know, you pack up, you pay attention, but it shouldn't be like that. It was hard to see that. I think.

46:09Oti: ho ho ho ho That was harsh.

46:12KT: Okay. We didn't get to talk about the locker scene during the time of, we didn't even get to talk about the root and toot in Confederates, in the basketball game either, but, what I was alluding to about Royale earlier was they literally were in threat of their own lives. Right. And Royale took that as a moment to stand up for himself and said, see, this how I feel when you guys bully me, really go away,

46:41Oti: It even

46:42KT: get lost.

46:43Oti: Ignore me.

46:45KT: Ignore, ignore me. I think it was in season two. He was talking about, how he understands and he, he gets it. And it's like, bro, you're privileged. Your daddy was bankrolling the, nah, don't miss me. Miss me with that mess. Not to say that he didn't struggle, especially with his dyslexia as well. But like, it just felt really weird and gross for him to bring it up right after they had been confronted with the police and anything I'm fucking fortunately, anything bad could have gone down in that moment, especially like you said, when Phil jumped out of nowhere.

47:21KT: Right. So I just, that felt icky, but let's come back to the debate. This isn't an icky Royale moment, but, Oh, we talk about this show choosing to have very real moments that end in a very somber sort of way. And this was one of them.

47:37Oti: Oh yeah,

47:39KT: So I get what Royale was saying, but like practically, theoretically, ancestrally, I didn't agree with what he was saying about, the emancipation of slaves, because we've been knowing, especially, you know, with Black AF and Juneteenth, slaves weren't really free, even when the date was set. So even in, even in Royale's speech, the premise of what he's saying kind of contradicted itself, right? And I was so glad that it was picked up in this debate, but he won by default by technicality because the other guy didn't cite his sources. And I understand that this is, uh, perhaps a way, you know, to, to enter, you know, the, the structures and, and follow the rules of the world outside of incarceration.

48:33KT: But I also feel like that was un fucking fair, but it might also be because I'm a little baby and I want satisfaction in my TV show. I'm not sure. Yeah,

48:42Oti: Ha ha ha. Yeah, oh, Royale lost that debate.

48:45KT: Right?

48:45Oti: Hands down. Ha ha ha. We had people being still slaves two years after the fact. Yeah. So, citing sources, I guess the lesson was, you know, life isn't fair and all that. You need to instill all that. But it's a show, man. Give us some wins. Ha

49:03KT: See? So you're saying you're baby too. We're both babies. Oh

49:07Oti: we are, in this regard. Ha

49:10KT: speaking of babies, I want to talk about one of the youngest, in the team, CJ, uh, something that I thought was interesting in season two. I understand that they had less. They were trying to fit in more, but I would also say like, if you remove the Ike versus Les, the big focus on it being such a big bad, if you remove that as a big focus, if you remove, you know, trying to, no, I'm not even saying not hold the, not have some sort of like conflict with the kids beating up the predator. But also there didn't need to be such a, you know, the journalist and that if they removed all of that, it might have made room for the themes that they were introducing into season two, but then again, season two was a lot shorter as well. And something that I didn't feel like necessarily got explored as much as it could have was the coming out sort of scene.

50:03Oti: Oh.

50:04KT: Cause I didn't like, like it just like, I understand that, you know, especially, especially not being queer. Like I get that we're, we're, we're not the ones to speak on the authenticity of scenes, but, you know, even I think the first sort of moment when they're at a party and CJ goes around the corner, like to make out or whatever. I didn't take that as in he wasn't interested in girls. I just took it as maybe he just didn't feel like making out with her. Maybe he didn't like the idea of being pressured, you know? And I guess those were supposed to be the hints.

50:38KT: It culminated in the scene of him just saying to his dad, I'm gay. Okay.

50:45Oti: of the start of the trip going back home.

50:48KT: the start of a long ass trip.

50:51Oti: It's a brave young man.

50:54KT: But then also, I think it was even within the same scene. The dad said something icky, but not too icky. But then in that same scene, he accepted his son, and I'm like...

51:05Oti: He did some mental gymnastics there.

51:07KT: But maybe it was like condensing of the season. But then it's like, again, because we could see storylines that didn't need to be there, it was like, okay, we didn't need to rush this then.

51:18Oti: Well, I feel like that, I don't know if I wanted more of that. I feel like they did as much as they could. Like, I'm happy with that it? I

51:27KT: Okay, CJ's daddy. I'm waiting for you to turn around now.

51:31Oti: Wow. What I wanted to see more of is Ike's interactions with the rest of the team. Cause it's Ike and Jace. But he had a, he had a status there that Naeem quit because of, called out IQFO. And we, we didn't get to see that. I feel like that was such a missed opportunity to get to see other bonds being formed. You know, and it was so obvious at the end when Ike was calling up the, you know, the team at the dinner after they'd already lost the nationals. I was like, yeah, you'd say I love you, but we know you don't love them. But when he called up, when he called out Jace,

52:09KT: Yeah.

52:10Oti: man, you could feel, you could feel it.

52:14KT: meant it.

52:16Oti: Calling Royale. I love you, man. Yeah, of course.

52:20KT: Yeah.

52:21Oti: You know, but anyway,

52:23KT: Well, considering Royale gets ignored, that's probably enough for him. Just to just to acknowledge him and not ignore him.

52:30Oti: Yeah,

52:32KT: we didn't really get to talk about my favorite non main character, Naeem Raeem. I just, I just wanted to shout him out. I think he's great.

52:40Oti: Yeah, he was a solid character.

52:42KT: I, uh, how did you feel about Orlando Jones? Because we know and love him, but he was playing.

52:49Oti: the long game.

52:50KT: Well, he was playing an Uncle Tom. He was playing an Uncle Ruckus. He was playing all of those uncles.

52:55Oti: He knew what he wanted and I think at the end of season 2 we get to see exactly why he was playing like that. It wasn't about helping one person, it was about helping every other

53:06KT: person, but that just feels convenient because the ways that he was moving, the ways that he was judging Ike,

53:12Oti: I'm with you. He was moving mad. I, I'm, I'm not here saying that he, he didn't have qual, he didn't have issues because it's

53:17KT: the institution to want Ike to have that professional sort of qualification, but you know, there was a part of him that was like, you need to get it. You, you're not the 10th. Well, they say the top 10th, right? And it was interesting because even watching, Emery, watch the way his dad was treated, that you can wear the same clothes, that you can dress the same way, you can drive the same cars, you can eat the same food, but they'll never see you like that.

53:50KT: Exactly! How they got Anansi doing these things? But,

54:00KT: Mmwah!

54:03Oti: The destination is the journey, darling.

54:06KT: But I would also say that democracy is a dream.

54:11Oti: Okay, Dr.

54:15KT: in practice, democracy.

54:17Oti: uh,

54:19KT: any other characters you want to talk about?

54:27KT: Oh yeah, absolutely. We binged season one in two days and we finished all of season two cause we actually started watching week to week in like five, six days, the whole season, the whole series.

54:42Oti: we started watching, we caught up. No, but it's definitely one of those shows that I'd be keeping an eye out. And if you've not watched it, do yourself a favor. It's that good. And, wow. I cannot wait for what season three

54:56KT: Yes, because hopefully, and yes, there will be a season

54:59Oti: out of this.

55:04KT: Well, friends and lovers, you know, it's a great show when even after saying spoilers, and we talk about it in detail, Oti still recommends it. And he's also pushing a GoFundMe that doesn't exist. Thank you, friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

55:27Oti: It'll be remiss of me not to reference this, but I would say Love & Basketball.

55:34KT: Hey, you romance wanker.

55:37Oti: club?

55:38KT: well, I guess I'll talk about Lakers wankers. I'm going to be referencing Winning Time.

55:44KT: Uh, if you would like to see Oti's reference wankers on Twitter, Instagram, and Spill, we're @ForYourRefPod.

55:50Oti: hello@fyrpodcast.com

55:53KT: We're also on hashtag renew Swagger podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys next week.

56:00Oti: you

56:00KT: Bye.