Succession – Too close to Rome

Full transcript of Succession – Too close to Rome.

0:00KT: Howdy, friends and lovers. Whether this is nonlinear or linear time, happy new year. Happy new year. Happy 2020 to all of you lovely sexual filthy people out there. Expect more of that this year. Thank you so much for tuning into our podcast. Obviously, you'll get to the main part of the episode, but we just wanted to record happy new year tidings and also

0:30KT: the Golden Globes just happened, Oti.

0:30Oti: They did.

0:30KT: And aside from Ricky Gervais, a lot of things went on as I think the only moments were Ricky Gervais and Succession winning the award. Yes. For the best drama series and also to our thespian daddy, Brian Cox. So congratulations. We couldn't get our Kieran Culkin listen to the rest of the episode for that, but congratulations all around. If you haven't watched Succession, do yourself a favor,

1:00KT: you know, leave your kids and family and everyone alone for twenty hours and then come back to this episode. Mhmm. So let's dive into the first, your phrase or mine for this year, Oti.

1:00Oti: Oh, I'm so ready for this.

1:00KT: Because there are King Lear sort of influences and alluding to in Succession, I've taken it from King Lear. It is from act one scene four by the fool Mhmm. Who is King Lear's personal stand up sort of comedian. So this is the quote and I want you to give the modern day translation

1:35KT: because it literally says what it says.

1:37Oti: Okay.

1:40KT: Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest, lend less than thou owest.

1:48Oti: Use whatever resource you have wisely. Bam.

1:52KT: Wham, bam, spank your ass. That is correct, sir. I'm good like that. Because sometimes sexual adventures can be easy if we consent. Now before we cause any more trouble, let's get on to the show. Howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You got your host, KT.

1:52Oti: And Oti.

1:52KT: And dust off your cloaks and sharpen your daggers because we are going to make a Tomlette and you can't do that without breaking some Greggs. Yes, friends and lovers. We are covering the conglomerate HBO series known as Succession.

2:56KT: Mhmm. And all of the juices and all of the orgasms came in quick succession with this show. By god, what a show. What a show indeed. You know, thank you so much. If you if this is the first time that you've stumbled on over to the For Your Reference world, we won't give you any context because we're nasty like that. And if this is one, two, third times a podcast listening to For Your Reference, we welcome you all just the same.

3:26KT: But you will come to know it and you will come to hear, you know, there are shows that we have labored over and we have loved, you know, Vikings, Oti. Mhmm. For example. You know, even going back to HBO, we also cover Game of Thrones. Like, are shows that we love and we've loved for years. And sometimes there are shows that just, you know, stumble across us like Master of None, for example, that we just end up binging out of nowhere and Succession was one of those shows.

3:59Oti: Yeah. We didn't have a plan of doing Succession at all.

3:59KT: You know what? We actually had a list

4:06KT: over the Christmas and that pseudo New Year's sort of break on all of the shows that we left because they're too for chef kisses. They are too good to watch on a weekday, weeknight, weekend sort of basis. So we waited for the full holiday break, and we chose this show over all the other shows that we're supposed to be watching or at least catching up on. Right? Yeah. And wow. And again, welcome welcome to our show. I know I say a lot, you know, we're not family friendly, but we do love our daddies.

4:42KT: And this show, more than none, really fits in with that brand. Does it not? Oh, yeah. And we will definitely talk about the cast, but Brian Cox's Logan Roy, hold on to your Daddywood genitals because Langrishe gives the best performance

4:56KT: of his career.

4:56Oti: Oh, fuck off.

5:01KT: That's literally all he said. Like, if I'm not Logan Roy on the For Your Reference podcast, I don't know what is. Mm-mm. But wow. And then we also had Ewan, his brother, who was the old man from Babe. Yeah. And he was playing a disgruntled old man as well. But what what a show. A very, very good show. Just tantalizing and teasing. And you know what, Oti? Like, this show was literally we'll we'll talk about first impressions, but I wanna say it here. Thank you for listening to our podcast. Succession is a new sex position.

5:33KT: Like, you just once you discover it, you were just banging it out all day until you get those 20 episodes.

5:33Oti: Oh, yeah. For sure. In whatever position you choose, you just put a poster of shaving there and that's your position.

5:33KT: No. I my my dick just dried up. I wouldn't even fuck you with Rome's dick. No way. Oh, wow. Okay. So this is a relatively new show. For a show that is so steeped in experience and drama and tragedy,

6:06KT: It's crazy to think that it only started last year. Yeah. Actually, no, I'm getting my years confused. 2018 is a better way to say it. Oh, yeah. So it's it's currently two seasons, 20 episodes. It did get some accolades in 2019. It won a BAFTA for best international series.

6:24KT: It also won some Emmys and was also nominated, but it won some Emmys mainly for the main title theme, which I definitely think we should talk about because the music is quite great.

6:24Oti: Oh, it's it's one of the best out there.

6:24KT: And accolades to Jesse Armstrong as the creator. He also won an Emmy for his writing as well. We also have Adam McKay who directed The Big Short. Go and check out our episode of The Big Short. But let's let's wow. Yeah. And that's part of the new sex position. It is.

6:59KT: Rinse and repeat my loves. Well, let's start off with first impressions which is what we always do. Right? Did you ever come across this show? Were you excited because of some of the actors that were on it? Do you just love Peep Show? That's why you follow Jesse Armstrong into Succession. David Mitchell gets a shout out just because I said so. How how did you get how did you even find out about the show?

6:59Oti: Well, I make it a point to keep tabs on everything that's

7:29Oti: going on out

7:29KT: Let's give Oti some time to pull his glasses up.

7:34Oti: No. But the fuck is, I saw the poster for this. I was like I saw the title Succession and then saw the poster. Was like, yeah. I read the synopsis. He was like, this is not for me. It sounds very soap opera ish. It does. Like, very Bold and the Beautiful. It does. And and in my mind, I was And it looked it looked very rich. Yep. In my mind, I was just thinking a Tyler Perry sort of scenario

7:58Oti: going on. Damn, dog. Yes. It was that low. We love Tyler Perry, but he he his his products are for a different sort of consumption. Wow. So it took a while. I just ignored it and never really gave it a time of day until Mhmm. I visited one of the forums at regular and it was right up there as one of the best TV shows going on. I was like, KT, we have to try this shit. And then after we tried this expedition, we watched Sixth Sixth Sixth Yeah.

8:28KT: I think you're talking about Ass Blog but that's a story for another day. Yeah. But yeah. And it's something that watching the show, we never really

8:36Oti: a lot of the shows that we watch, we gravitate towards a character. Yeah. This doesn't really I really actually, we'll keep talking, but I don't really think this show has a protagonist, but let's go. We gravitate towards a character whether it's the protagonist or not. There's always that one person that we like rooting for from the start off. Yeah. With this show, we were like, fucking hell. We don't like anyone in this.

9:00Oti: It kept on changing from Kendall to to Rome to it just kept on changing cons constantly based on what they were doing at the time. Mhmm. And I was never I will I've never been so enthralled Mhmm. Captivated watching a show that I didn't really like anyone in particular. Yeah. It was just I couldn't believe it. Mhmm. But goddamn,

9:25Oti: if they did that to me, someone who gravitates towards a character and I just cling on to them because that's the shining light of the show or that's who I want to succeed, bloody hell, man. This this show just gave me different options all the time. It made me think of what's going on, who's gonna take the throne. You know what? I would go as far and say

9:25KT: I I know what you're gonna do.

9:25Oti: Yes. What are you what do you think I'm gonna say?

9:25KT: You're mention Game of Thrones.

9:25Oti: You

9:52Oti: do not know me that well, but just now that you mentioned it Oh, fuck off. See, fuck off. There you go.

10:01KT: That wasn't even part of the reference. That was just me.

10:05Oti: Now that you mentioned it, this is how a battle is done in chase of that throne. It is so beautifully done. I think this is how it's supposed to be done. Like, Succession just completely showed everyone how a coherent story in terms of so many characters, so many moving cards.

10:24KT: So many moving parts.

10:24Oti: I

10:28Oti: intentionally avoided that.

10:31KT: I lean into it.

10:31Oti: What about your first impressions?

10:31KT: Oh, why thank you. What a hospitable host, Oti. I'm not sure if we're quite as wealthy but I do appreciate the hospitality.

10:41Oti: You're welcome.

10:44KT: I heard Succession, I heard the name Succession, I always say it on lists of shows that you must watch before you die. But I never really cared to look into it. Right? And it's like, it really like, you know, the lists that you have of things that you're going to watch, sometimes there are some dormant volcanoes in there. Yeah. Because how dare you Jesse Armstrong and the crew just completely sweep me away.

11:16KT: Like, if I had known if I had known, we would've watched this way earlier. Holy shit. But I'm glad we had 20 episodes just to binge up on. Yeah. So it's slated to come out America late summer twenty twenty, which is our winter. Yeah. But not the Game of Thrones winter because you already overthrew it with Succession. Right? But I really enjoyed it in way of HBO shows, kind of like with Cinemax as well. I was expecting a titty or two, maybe even an accidental, maybe a one in the background.

11:47KT: You know, if you're feeling daring enough, maybe give me a nice pen eye, but I didn't get any of that. No. Not to say that you don't have to have it, but it's weird. It's weird to be on HBO

11:56KT: and not be all poor Giamatti about it.

11:56Oti: Maybe it's the rich setting. Rich people don't show tears, mate.

11:56KT: Maybe rich people don't have sex.

11:56Oti: Yeah. Maybe, that's the trick. Stop having sex. You get all the money, mate. Let's be poor. Let's

12:10KT: be poor and figure out all the other sex things. But in ways of because the way that I see HBO is pure quality. Like, if we are to look at all of the episodes that we've covered in regards to TV shows, a good proportion of them would be HBO. Yes. And in regards to what we're watching, HBO is is always on our roster. Mhmm. So in in regards to, you know, in in the most sort of sense, independent, you can break out from what cable sort of entertainment does. In regards to quality, good actors,

12:46KT: you know, and being able to at least in Brian Cox's case, you can recycle and see your other HBO alumni as well. Yes. It definitely fits the mold of HBO. And, you're gonna listen to the brown woman from Australia telling you what HBO should be. But this this show, wow.

13:07Oti: It is really good. It it is really good.

13:07KT: And the casting

13:11KT: has been done perfectly. I wouldn't replace anyone in there. And I hope we're going to touch on as many people as possible. I'll just go through maybe just a handful that we have on IMDb. We have Hiam Abbass who plays Marcia Roy. I don't think I've seen her in anything.

13:11Oti: Neither have I.

13:11KT: Yeah. But she is marvelous. She's kind of know, when we when you talk about TV shows, there's usually not necessarily an antagonist, but there's usually, like, an evil adversary

13:43KT: Yeah. Sort of figure. And Marcia kind of embodied that in the first half of season one. Yeah. Spoiler spoiler spoilers, but also I would like to warn you of splooshes splooshes splooshes Mhmm. Because we are spreading all our fluids all over this episode Yeah. Just like Rome, but he needs a little help from Gerri. We also have Nicholas Braun playing Greg Hirsch. How dare you? IMDb. Why is Greg the second credited? I'm serious. Apparently, is before Brian Cox, Logan Roy. We also have Kieran Culkin.

14:16KT: I'm in the For Your Reference household. We always stan at Kieran Culkin before Macaulay, but we do love Macaulay. And you called it? You called it, like, a few minutes in and you're like, that looks like Macaulay Culkin. Surely, they're related. Not Cocklin. I think that's the porn version. I think that's the real HBO version. That's the that's the that's the Oz. Prison edition. We have Kieran playing Roman. I don't know if on his birth certificate, it does say Romulus,

14:49KT: but I do appreciate that nod to Remus and Romulus as we know from the ancient tale of Rome. We also have Peter Friedman playing Francis, better wise known as Frank. And I'll just go through one more. We have Matthew Macfadyen playing Tom. That is that mister Darcy? I was actually going to stop watching this show because I've I I have made it a conscious effort to not watch anything this man is in. The gore, the big old South Park Randy Balls that he has to play mister Darcy, don't give me that face.

15:23Oti: No. I'm just happy. I don't like how aroused you're being over over this that this pisses you pisses you off this much, I'm just all for it.

15:23KT: Okay. Let's let's go back to your frame of reference. That's like me saying to you that Halle's Berries should have been rammed by Billy Bob Thornton.

15:23Oti: I would take that.

15:23KT: How about she's a terrible Catwoman? She is. How about she was the worst Bond girl? Get out of this house.

15:48Oti: Fuck off.

15:51KT: See even you don't believe you don't believe that. Yeah. I don't know. We definitely need to do the BBC mini series of Pride and Prejudice because what the fuck was that shit? And Keira Knightley, no. Thank you. I'll take no slices. Thank you. Let's talk like, you've already kind of talked about the show. Jesse Armstrong is bolstered in substance, and he's great and he with his writing. In interviews, you know, he has a great sensibility of media conglomerates. Yes. People, denote to the Murdoch family,

16:21KT: but he actually you know, he he paints a picture of how the American sort of media outlets are and how, you know, NBC, CBS, by predominantly family sort of businesses as well. So he is very give me some time to pull two of my glasses up, he is very learned and we definitely appreciate that in the show and you can start to see, if you don't have the cojones in writing, show would have crumbled. Yeah. Right? And it's all an amalgamation of great writing, great acting,

16:56KT: and it was it was lovely. And I told you even the first even after the pilot, I was like, all that's missing is them wearing old timey robes and being set in an older time. Yeah. Because it really did have that substance. Right? But, you know, let let's not wank off and pretend that we know what we're talking about. I guess I need to go back to high school and when I read King Lear, but there are some themes that are throughout that as well. But, you know, the classic sort of tragedy

17:24KT: elements that you have, you know, family members stabbing each other, fighting for the throne, and stabbing each other in pleasurable ways as well. Oedipus, if you're nasty. It was great and I really loved it and, you know, let's go back to the comment about them not necessarily being a protagonist. So, you know, Logan is the epicenter. Everything flows back into Logan. Yep. Right? Everything comes from him. Mhmm. So,

17:50KT: you know, it was interesting to see it's literally a strategic chess game. Yeah. All of the characters that we have, the only sort of dimension that you get is from how they have benefited and how they can benefit from Logan Roy. Mhmm. Right? And, you know, there there are some elements that just weren't explored in the show and never ever ever have I ever wanted to know what childhood was like for characters

18:18KT: except for this show.

18:18Oti: Yeah. I feel like they could do a spin off of the Logans, the younger years, and it'll completely be a hit.

18:25KT: And I am not for milking shit and having spin offs and prequels and fuckals and, you know, all of these sorts of things, but I would be fucking interested in that.

18:25Oti: Me too.

18:25KT: To see from their frame of reference how they turned out to be the way that they are. Especially fucking Connor.

18:25Oti: Oh my god. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's an enigma, mate.

18:48KT: No. He's quite transparent. Like, he I think it's because he looks well put together that you don't realize that he is fucked in the head. Yeah. Like, he's literally fucked in the head. But we'll definitely get to the characters and what that means. But it is very interesting because you see them vying for the position, you know, for that top sort of job. And it is called Succession. Right? But there

19:12KT: seems to be no genuine sort of intention for Logan to pass that on.

19:12Oti: Yeah. It's one of those things where he's been there. He built his empire all by himself. Like, he's not he he he didn't come from any sort of old money or anything like that. Yeah. So you could tell that it means everything to him. And the fact that he has children who are to some level incompetent.

19:34KT: To every level. Can I just say if I was a rich,

19:40KT: like, super amazing old man Logan Roy, I would be fucking pissed off that those are the products? Those are my kids. That's my fucking legacy. You can piss right off. And I will take you back to the comment where Marcia was talking to Shiv and said, he gave you a sandpit and you thought it was the whole world. You know? They don't know anything about the real world. They all think this super they're all super entitled.

20:03KT: Yeah. And They never really they never really stepped out into an environment where they had consequences. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can get to some more specific examples when we explore the characters, but it's a very interesting show. And, you know, there there is the school of thought and even sometimes Oti feels this way, like, you know, it's hard to resonate or care about shit characters.

20:28Oti: I fucking love it. You know? And that's what I was saying. That's all I was saying. Like, in this show, I kept on changing who I was supporting every single episode. Yeah. Very different arc, I was just shifting my goalposts

20:40Oti: over and over.

20:40KT: And I was watching your goalposts over and over. But your pendulum swings so much. Like, you will hate someone and then you will love them.

20:40Oti: I just gave you balls.

20:40KT: Damn, doc. You need to stop doing that. We're talking about sexual adventures and I'm getting distracted. But in regards to these characters, like, they're so fragmented and I don't think a lot of them, Shiv in particular, and we'll talk about the characters in particular, but I just wanna make this comment. Shiv is very shitty. Like, a lot of her characteristics

21:15KT: are fucking shite. Right? But I feel like some of them, maybe they are malicious, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that she's rich and she's never really been tested in the real world. Yeah. And and it's it speaks more to our society right now. I guess you can call it ignorance, but I feel like that's a wankery word that everyone uses. But I feel like Shiv is a shitty person and the the her relationship with Tom, we definitely need to talk about. But I feel like a lot of her

21:46KT: shortcomings is just the just the fact that she doesn't know any better.

21:46Oti: Yeah. And like to say, the higher you go in the corporate ladder, the more stupid it gets. So it's it's it's completely the sort of thing where you get executives who are born into money or whatever the fuck that was. It doesn't speak to their qualifications

22:05Oti: at all or or their IQ or their business acumen.

22:05KT: Yeah. Like, nepotism is rife. Yeah. And to say that nepotism doesn't exist is obviously either you're part of the machine or you're just living in your fantasy little world. Right? Well, let's let's let's get let's get into it. Let's talk about the characters. For a long time, I felt like Ken was going to be the protagonist. Like, it seemed like it was going to be his rise to eminence. Spoiler spoiler spoiler if you've watched the show. Perhaps that's an actually,

22:37KT: I guess if you've watched the end of season two, but let's keep going because I know sometimes hello people that haven't watched Succession still listening.

22:47KT: But let's get into it. Let's talk about Ken.

22:47Oti: Kendall. Wow. I started off loving him. At least among the kids, he seemed the one that was the more savvy.

22:58Oti: He seemed really smart. He carry himself well.

22:58KT: He didn't carry himself well. He carried himself well when he was shot up. He walked into a room like he had just pissed his pants. And that pisses me off. Don't rich people have money to throw at, like, Toastmasters and

23:14KT: public speeches and shit like that? Why was he never firm in what he said? He was always fucking tentative. He was always tentative. And that pissed me off. The fact that, you know, he is so high up and he talks the same way Greg does, piss off. Actually, sorry. Let's be on brand. Fuck off.

23:14Oti: I think that's more to do with him just doubting himself and his abilities just because of who his father is. I think Logan has played a part in who Ken is at this time because

23:14KT: He's played a part in how all of them have been formed.

23:14Oti: Yes. And and you could see that Logan

23:46Oti: really actually wants Kendall to be this dependent super dependent on him because left alone, Kendall can fucking run away with it. Mhmm. So to me, Kendall was the guy. And remember when he he tried to do the takeover bit? Yep. And I told you, once Logan found out and he was squashed, the best move for him was to go to Sandy. Because the rivals with Logan, to go to Sandy, work with Sandy, prove himself capable, make Sandy's company profitable, and that would stick it up to Logan.

24:18Oti: But now he chose the the the really shitty option.

24:18KT: But you know what? Like a lot of the actions of the children in particular, so I'm not even counting Connor. The fact that he volunteered himself to be like the blood sacrifice.

24:35Oti: He was a puppeteer. He was a he was a puppeteer all along. Like, know your role. Like, was the malignant

24:43KT: influencer.

24:44Oti: No. No one would buy lunch.

24:48KT: So I'm talking about Kendall, I'm talking about Shiv, and I'm also talking about Rome. With these kids, all they're doing is having toddler tantrums on a bigger scale. Right? Daddy didn't give me what I want. So I went next door. Right? And that's what Ken did. Right? Daddy didn't give me what I want. So I went to the politicians like they're being very, childish about everything that they do. It's like developmentally, they've stagnated. Yep. And they're forever seeking their father's approval. I think it was Naomi

25:26KT: from the Pierce family with Kendall. Yeah. Later on in season two, she was like, you talk about your dad all the time. Can you imagine? Yeah. I think it was Willa's lead actress. She was saying, you you talk about your dad a lot Yeah. And we all have daddy issues but come on now. Yeah. That's a Well, stands his dad. Oh, L to the OG. Oh.

25:55Oti: KT is the OG.

26:01KT: Can I just say that song trumps all of the songs that we ever got from Empire? Wow. I said it. Oh, wow. I'm throwing down in the ring.

26:14Oti: Yes. It's coming for you, mate.

26:19KT: Oh, wow. It's like no. But literally, they're they're older and I guess on some level, you can call them adults, but their tantrums are exactly like children. Yes. They've got tens, hundreds of millions of dollars to have tantrums with, but it is. It it is literally for the approval.

26:37KT: Anything that they do, whether it's damaging to Logan or not is just to get his attention again. Yeah. And they might be doing things that conflict his favor like Ken and also Shiv, but at the end of the day, they're just doing that as a cry for attention. Yeah. For sure. They'll all want to suckle at daddy's titties and I don't know what Kenyan proverb I feel like the Kenyan proverb didn't get the upgraded version.

27:05Oti: That's accurate translation,

27:08Oti: mate.

27:08KT: And that may or may not contribute to our new sex position, but anyway.

27:13Oti: But, yeah, they're all looking for dad's approval. They're all looking to make moves. They just want to be the guy. They want to be the guy their father is super proud of. They want to be

27:13KT: Or the girl.

27:13Oti: Yeah.

27:25KT: Oh, I love how you just casually dismissed it just like Logan. Know your biases, my love. But going back to Ken, I thought it was interesting that yes, we met Rava, like, in season one and the children. I thought it was interesting, and then I thought it was weird they never showed them again. But then again, they're rich. So they pay for nannies and shit. So I actually think it's quite believable that Ken hasn't seen his kids forever. Yeah. And, oh,

27:54KT: he has one of the sports childrens I've ever seen. Hang on. But we don't know. He might have, like, developmental disorder or something. Will, do you wanna talk about the moment?

28:04Oti: So there's this moment, the player game Mhmm. And it reaches Logan, and Logan has to say what everyone else has said. But then Logan's having his moment with his all sickness and all, just there dazed. And this kid comes up and is like, yeah, last your turn. Give it to me. I'm like, far out. You know? As from my background, mate, respect is fucking everything. Oh, yeah. Like, you again, you shouldn't even be seen or heard. Like, it's it's it's

28:33Oti: you just don't you just don't say some shit. Like, that was deliberate antagonizing. Antagonizing. Like,

28:40KT: remember remember how we felt sorry for the kid in It's a Wonderful Life getting beaten by an adult? Yeah. I feel like this was well warranted.

28:49Oti: Well, it it was just one of those moments where this kid did it to learn a lesson, which wasn't being taught by by Kendall or Rava. So, you know, sometimes

29:00Oti: tough tits, mate.

29:00KT: Tough tits or hard hands. Again, maybe our our new sex position. But actually let's go back to that because we talk about our frame of reference, right? Oti and I, or even yourself listening, we could be watching the same thing, but what we consume and how we resonate is solely on our frame of reference. Mhmm. Right? And it might surprise you, you know, us starting a podcast and talking about TV shows and movies. We're not rich.

29:32KT: No. We're not. I'm sorry, Oti, if this is the way you found out. Mhmm. That champagne was actually soda pop the whole time. Oh, wow. We love some soda pop. Right? And like, you know, we we don't need to get too much into our own lives, but like, personally, I don't take money from my own family because I know there's going to be talks of that for years and years and years and years. And any sort of ideals,

29:58KT: any sort of decisions are tied into the fact that you borrowed money. Yeah. Right? So the reason why I mentioned that is that's my frame of reference. I don't take shit. I don't take money. I don't take anything from anyone except for Oti. I'm bleeding him dry. Don't tell him. But, you know, when it when it comes to that and family, I see family as a way to sometimes, if I'm lucky, receive love. Yeah. Right? And give love. Mhmm. But that's it. None no other transactions except Oti's family are made. Right? So

30:31KT: to see all of them fighting and clawing at each other, like, I it just it didn't resonate to me because I'm just like, you're only up your dad's own ass because of all the money that you're getting. For sure. You know what I mean? So in that sense, I just couldn't I couldn't relate to that.

30:31Oti: Which again gives Logan all the power to control them.

30:31KT: Exactly. And they get annoyed that they get controlled. Yeah. You know what? Branch out motherfucker.

30:55KT: Exactly. Doing something for yourself. Be like, oh, you wanna control me? Jokes on you. I'm not taking anything from you so you can't say shit. Yeah. But because they've endlessly got their hands in his pockets, maybe pockets of a hole to the fly, who knows? You know what I mean? So everything they say is void because they're out for the money but maybe I'm just a celestial being and I don't know what it's like to

31:20KT: swindle people except for Oti, I'm bleeding him dry in a whole different way. So I found it really hard to

31:20Oti: Play that backwards as you hear heart worshiping

31:29Oti: hail Satan, mate. Hail Satan.

31:33KT: Again, we definitely need to make that a Patreon only episode. Oh, for sure. Because we've got lots to say. Yes, let us know when you're ready to talk openly about religion. But it's very interesting. I think even just to take a step back for a second, like Will Smith and Jada, right? Super awesome, super talented, super successful and their come up was all on their own bootstraps. Right? And it's amazing. They continue to have a great career respectively. But to start off at a platform of wealth, I don't know if that necessarily translates.

32:18KT: It really doesn't. I love you, Jaden. I know I've sledged you all the way through our life. It's just icon living. Well, Will Smith is an icon chilling. Not as good as the l o g a n.

32:33Oti: I don't know, man. I feel like you need to have some struggles in life to appreciate it. I feel like there needs to be a rule where anyone who's super rich in the billionaire

32:43Oti: sort of range.

32:43KT: I think even multimillion.

32:46Oti: You need to send your kids to an island where they don't have any fucking money. Like a Lord of the Flies Yeah. Type of thing. Yeah. Just for for some rough let's say ten years. And then when they come back, they fully appreciate what the fucking what the fuck they have in the world.

32:46KT: I like that. Let's let's write that up and sell it to Netflix or HBO if they'll have us. But

33:06KT: it's true. Like, I think to to be able to appreciate your wealth a bit more. Something that was quite funny as well was Greg when they were talking about whether Greg should go with Ewan because it's a guaranteed 230 mil. 50 mil. Yep. Yep. Or whether he, you know, tries his bets with Logan. Logan. We have Tom and we also have Connor. And they were saying that $5,000,000 is a nowhere sort of amount because it's a lot of money but you can't really do anything but it doesn't motivate you to have a job either.

33:44KT: But I still feel like I could do a lot with 5,000,000.

33:47Oti: Maybe it's one of those tricky situations, you know, in in football soccer, they say when you're two two goals up, that's when you're truly vulnerable because you're sort of comfortable. You can taste the glory. You're comfortable. You can taste the glory. You think you've already done it, but then it's only fucking two goals. All they need is one, and then that's when things start getting dicey. Maybe 5,000,000 is the same for super multi, whatever fucking billionaires. You 5,000,000 is pretty much nothing to them. So a a a millionaire who has 5,000,000 in the bank,

34:18Oti: once you get that sort of taste like rich lifestyle, then it's all going downhill from there, isn't it? Yeah. Perhaps.

34:26KT: And you see, that's how boring Kendall is because we didn't even talk we just talked about this instead, which I felt was more entertaining.

34:33Oti: But

34:34KT: Kendall is the most complex character in this. And yet we digressed for, like, ten minutes. Just because the interesting morsels along the way. Oh, they said tasty morsels a lot. I feel like they were listening. Maybe not to For Your Reference because this show came out before but they must you know you know, the the AIs and the robots are listening. They have devices in our home. I spill my seed every morning to our devices

34:59KT: so I can be spared. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But but I I think Kendall for me is the only one of the siblings who But he's has clouded. And you got annoyed because of the and we're not addicts, at least not in regards to that regard. So, obviously, we don't wanna minimize what addiction is like, but I think for you personally, you got annoyed that his character kept relapsing.

35:24Oti: I felt like it was a chip shot for the writers to take. Like, once this the takeover went haywire, I felt like that was the next step, and I was hoping that they'll just prove me wrong, that Kendall is fucking strong enough to just overcome this shit, and that's maybe me being naive. But drug resistant. Is something that, you know, maybe that's your fault to once everything goes to shit and you're like, what the what's the point? You know? Mhmm.

35:49Oti: But I felt like it was one of those lower hanging fruits that they grabbed to just take the story along, and I didn't really appreciate it that much. Yeah. So it kind of went on autopilot. Yeah. But no sober person would have performed that L to the OG. Mate, as you already said it, Dre is probably producing that shit right now.

35:49KT: Really?

36:11KT: Is that the hill you wanna die on?

36:11Oti: Mate.

36:11KT: Are those the beads you can count on?

36:11Oti: That's the beads I can count on.

36:11KT: Arabic is dirty. Interesting, very interesting. Kendall made a lot of plays, but he was very obedient. The fact that he went against his father, think was fueled by drugs. But again, it was to be in his favor eventually in a twisted sort of way to be in Logan's favor. And actually,

36:41Oti: when you've spoken about Kendall, I think we've just focused on Kendall

36:44Oti: season one. I want us to take this to Kendall season two where he's broken down and he's pretty much a parrot to the father. He mimics everything the father does. He's following commands right front and center to the point where Rome is like, mate, is this even you anymore? Like I'm sorry.

36:44KT: He did that in season one as well.

36:44Oti: Well, not to the extent of this.

36:44KT: Yeah. But that's because he had his tail between his legs because he double crossed his father.

36:44Oti: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. So by the point that we got to the end of season two and

37:11Oti: Kendall that we saw Mhmm. I felt like it was just building. And what did I tell you once Logan made the speech to him about taking the fall saying, you're not a killer. I would never have picked you for CEO. I told you. They're priming our asses for Kendall to come and do the same shit he did and try and bring down the father. I saw that coming.

37:11KT: But and and that is character development on Kendall because throughout the first two seasons,

37:38KT: he was always mumbling and shit, and that fucking pissed me off. Even when he was doing the takeover, he couldn't even do it properly when he went and met his dad in the bathroom.

37:47KT: He didn't even say it. He was like, here, take this envelope. Fuck off.

37:47Oti: It would be hard for anyone, though.

37:47KT: No. If be doing it with some steel of balls saying

37:55KT: If you're going to be conniving, can you have some conviction please? KT from the For Your Reference household, thank you. Yeah. It was annoying. I love seeing delicious evil people. Owning it. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. And that was a problem with Daenerys in Game of Thrones. There you go. But I think that's enough on Kendall. I think you've spread your seed for Kendall enough because you already talked about how you felt about his other seed, the kid. Yeah. I know. So let's leave Ken alone. I wanna go to Rome. Take me to Rome. Romulus,

38:36KT: Rome, Rome. Rome's

38:38KT: Oedipus tendencies were not built in a day. You gravitated towards trying to figure out what his fetish was or whatever. But, like, he had no pretension about him. Yes. He didn't stand up for Ken. And for you, that was unforgivable.

38:38Oti: It was.

38:38KT: Which I understand, but a lot of shitty things happen. But you really kind of focused on that fact. Right? No. No. No. Did you see? I just gave him a Logan power move just now. I literally put my dick on his shoulder. That's what I did. But in regards to Rome,

39:09KT: he had no pretension about him. He said a lot of salacious shit and maybe that's why I related to him. But he didn't have any pretentious about him. He was himself. He didn't if he ever tried to play a game, he was quite transparent about it. He didn't try and act as if he had more morals to him. That he was holier than thou and he was untouchable. He knew that by nepotism, by birthright,

39:37KT: he had moved up in the company. Yeah. And he appreciated it. And you know what? Rome had been a COO and he was making decisions and, you know, in a lot of cases, he made very infantile sort of decisions. But he was out there and he was in that sort of executive role for a long time, way longer than Shiv ever was. Yeah.

39:37Oti: But the problem with Rome for me is he has no fucking backbone.

39:37KT: From that one example?

40:02Oti: There are myriad of examples in this show to show you how flaky he is. He promises he promises

40:09Oti: Kendall.

40:09KT: Yes. He was a questionable sort of character, but Logan even said it himself. People like you. For all of his shortcomings, yes, he might have been a questionable person, but in regards to business acumen,

40:22KT: he did have it. And even Logan said people like you.

40:22Oti: People like Rome but he did not have business acumen and that's why he took the business management training because he needed to learn some sort of shit to go with along with whatever fuckery he was doing in the boardroom anyway.

40:22KT: But he was going out there, he was making contacts, he was getting clients way more than Shiv did. And Kendall already had a leg up as you saw it already. Yeah. But when it came to business, I think people saw his potential. Gerri just certainly did. Say what you want about Rome, but when Logan was talking to Ken about not being a killer, Rome is. Rome makes hard decisions.

41:00KT: He makes decisions that Shiv and Ken would never make. So if you're if you're talking about characteristics that like, you know, that distinct him away from his siblings, then that would be it. The fact that he went and he had that final meeting at the end of season two and they were at gunpoint

41:16KT: and he was being you know, he he had to pitch for an hour and it's so much easier, right? Because everything was riding on that. They also had congress as well. So they were having not just, you know, corporate sort of pressures, they were also having government sort of pressures as well. Right? So it would have been easier for Rome to say, let's just take it because of the sheer amount of money and how we'll get them out of that situation. But his business acumen, yes, I'm so bold to say, consulted him otherwise.

41:47KT: And you have Karl that was standing in his corner as well. And then you had the other dickhead that fucked off on his little boat. Right? That is not something you you tell tell tell me now after 28 episodes of living in this world, that is not something that Ken or Shiv would have done. They would have went, they would have done a meeting, he would have looked like the playboy, you you would have looked like the golden child that you negotiated

42:10KT: all of these, this, you know, hefty amount of money. So as far as you know, it might fall apart, but for now, it looks promising. Shiv and Ken would have just let that ride. And as Rome explained it, he's a bullshitter, so he knows other bullshitters as well. And that's what ticked him off as But that's but that's what I'm saying to you. Ken would be too scared to tell his dad no. He would want all of that praise. Shiv's too

42:35KT: what was that lady's name that came from Pierce? Rhea. Yeah. Rhea. Rhea said that Shiv thinks she's smarter than she is. So in that sense, she's not self aware enough to know where perhaps she is falling short. Maybe. But and it's something I am starting the Rome fan club whether you join it or not.

42:54Oti: Well, Rome is is is superflawed just like any other characters. Yes. That's fine. And But he doesn't pretend to be anything else. He doesn't pretend to be anything else. Agreed. But to to put him above Kendall

43:07Oti: having more business acumen than him is simply wrong.

43:07KT: No. But I'm saying in that example, he was a killer, and that that does include business acumen. You think you have executives all the way up the top of a massive media conglomerate that are clean? Of course, they're not. Exactly. That's why you need sharpshooters. You need killers like that. Yeah. And and Logan turned Kendall into a killer. Angels don't rise to the top of media conglomerates.

43:32Oti: And you know what? And that's why the closing scene of season two was so pivotal because Logan is smiling when Kendall is making his announcement because he knows he's built that monster. He knows Kendall has finally turned that switch and has become that killer. Yeah. Nice of you to join after 20 episodes, Kendall. Nice of you to join.

43:50KT: Fucking hell, man. Well, let's see the three of us. Bye. I just hate I just hate people that are tentative. I hate people that aren't direct, and they apologize for their existence. It fucking pisses me off. And he did that. He wiggled his tail between his legs every time he walked into a room.

43:50Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Same same same same as

44:08Oti: Rome and Shiv. They all bowed down to their father in their father's presence. Like, not physically

44:14KT: stammering and mumbling and not being shown what they're doing. He was backstabbing his father. He couldn't even say it to his face. No one would say that straight. I'm just saying. Have you watched Bold and the Beautiful? I

44:26Oti: Yes.

44:26KT: And the fact the fact that my reference landed means everything that all that needs to be said. No. But seriously

44:35Oti: Cool. Let's agree to disagree and moved on to Shiv.

44:35KT: See, that was a very Kendall response of you.

44:35Oti: No. You're just gonna go and say me you're just not gonna tell me that come out of nowhere and say, Rome, is this fucking

44:46Oti: master of of a CEO or whatever?

44:46KT: I'm not saying he's the prodigal son.

44:46Oti: He is super fucking flawed.

44:46KT: Dude, I'm not saying he's the prodigal son. Just listen to what I'm actually saying. I'm saying that specific example of being a killer, needing to make hard decisions in regards to that business acumen,

45:04KT: Roman has an advantage over the two of them. And if you can't admit that, then you need to reconcile some Kendall qualms within yourself.

45:04Oti: Maybe I do. Maybe I Maybe we're watching a different show.

45:04KT: But to me, Rome is father's formula killer in this. Okay. Give me one example where Kendall

45:19KT: or Shiv worked against their own self interest because that's another business acumen there.

45:19Oti: Kendall tried to take the fall for everything at least

45:19KT: No. Because you saw he used that to his own advantage.

45:19Oti: Well, not

45:19KT: When did okay. Fine. Fine. Tweet us. If you stand with Oti, tweet us. Because that move where he went and he had that deal and he was at gunpoint,

45:40KT: it's in his best interest to say, yes, let's take the deal. Even if it falls apart, that will happen later. Right? But I would have meant that But the point is, this is feeling like Jerry Springer right now. But what I'm saying to you is he worked in his own self interest. That didn't work for him at that moment. He should've he should've just let the moment happen. Let's move on to a character that we love to hate and hated to hate.

46:07KT: Shiv, played by the ever eternal Sarah Snook. Please check out our Predestination episode. She is great. Yeah. She is great. She's also a fellow Aussie. I could not recognize her at all. Well, that's credit to Predestination and also Succession.

46:20Oti: But Yeah. Shiv, man, Shiv Shiv is the lowest of low in this in terms of the worst sibling. I think she takes the cake. Well, I obviously have another sibling to say, but anyway. Oh, she is just daddy. The way she treats Tom, she's so fucking entitled more than any of the siblings. She thinks everything revolves around her, and she thinks she's fucking smart, which is even worse because she thinks her shit don't stink. Like and and unless you're an idiot,

46:47Oti: spending decades around a successful media conglomerate, you're bound to learn a thing or two. But I think she took that as being supernaturally smart.

46:47KT: Yeah. And man, just just She it's interesting because she has an interesting sort of dynamic with Logan. I think it's very daddy's girl because a lot of what she says he actually put stock in.

46:47Oti: Yeah, she's definitely the favorite child.

46:47KT: She's definitely the favorite child but also at the same time, she is a woman. And there were quite a few comments that Logan in particular made about how,

47:20KT: not necessarily how he values women, but just how traditional and conventional he is in regards to who should be in power. You know, the wife stays home. And that speaks a lot to it because as much as he love and takes on the advice of Shiv, the way the show starts and you don't really notice it, but she's actually not in any position at all. Mhmm. Yeah. At Waystar. And even then, there's no sort of talks to her pathway into leadership there.

47:52KT: It's just her husband that's this. Obviously, she used her her love and connection, familial connection to Logan to get Tom that job. Right? But she was nowhere in the plan. And it wasn't until that became a possibility to her that she even thought about it. Yeah. Actually, yeah. And then as soon as it became a possibility, that's all she wanted and it was she was completely entitled to it, which became really frustrating. And again, as as non rich people, it's just like, why do you think that this is yours?

48:24Oti: What did you do to deserve this? Like Rome and Kendall have experience

48:30KT: being executives at Waystar. She just comes out of nowhere and just expects to be how about when they were with the Pierce family Yeah. At the table and Shiv is sitting next to Nan and they're talking about who's gonna be the leader and they're they're potentially talking about how Tom won't be the head of news anymore and they were saying who's going to succeed you and Shiv like a child, was like, come on. Just tell everyone it's me. It's mine. It's me. Yeah.

49:03Oti: That was spoilt ass. That's some spoilt ass shit. It is. It really is. And you could see by the reactions, and and I think that's the moment Logan was like, no, mate. You're not becoming this. You're not. You're not. Logan really hates being told what to do. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Especially by a woman. Above all else, if you tell him what do, he'll just go around the other way. Even if it's the right thing, he'll just do the opposite

49:29Oti: just to spite you.

49:29KT: You don't tell an old man what to do. Oh, no. You don't. Especially old man Logan. Let let's talk a bit about Shiv's relationship with Tom. Why do you think she's with him? Do you think she's with him just because

49:44KT: on paper, he sounds great and he's not going to offend anyone?

49:44Oti: I think on paper, he he sounds great, but also Shiv got into the relationship with Tom when she was at her lowest. And she kept she made it a point of saying it a lot.

49:44KT: I didn't take it that way. That's very interesting.

49:44Oti: Like, oh, I was so broken

50:03Oti: when we got together. I was so broken.

50:03KT: Was like I never thought of it like that. Ew.

50:03Oti: And it it it just shows you what Like, I can do better than you. It's just at that time I was with you. Yeah. Like, I needed someone safe

50:16Oti: at that point in my life. And now I kinda have well, I don't I'm not gonna say that she doesn't love Tom to a degree because there are suddenly feelings in there. To be to be that fucked up in the Roy family, yes, I think you can classify that as love. But, wow, I think what she did to Tom saying that they want she wants an open relationship on the wedding night Mhmm. That is some next level

50:43Oti: bullshit right there.

50:43KT: Well, from Tom's point of view, it was out of the blue. From Shiv and our viewers point of view, it made sense. She was sleeping around anyway. Yeah. Well, maybe not sleeping around, maybe just with that fella, but it's with an ex. Still sleeping around. It was an emotional connection. So there was definitely a lot in there. And something that I thought was really sweet about Tom, it was in season two in the last episode.

51:10KT: He was saying, I'm not a hippie. Like, I just wanna be with you, damn it. I don't want threesomes.

51:15Oti: Yeah. I just wanna be with my wife. Yeah. It's not too hard in this day and age. Just being a monogamous relationship. Just give me one woman for goddam's sake.

51:15KT: We're talking about Tom, not you, my love.

51:15Oti: Oh, I was trying to play some reverse psychology on me.

51:33KT: Well, I'm a I'm a whole lot of woman. Isn't that how reverse psychology works?

51:37Oti: Maybe in Kenya. Oh, Michael Scott. Wait,

51:41KT: But their threesome turned into the other person just watching through a keyhole. Oh my god. Tom is ridiculous. That is some Norman Bates shit. That is Norman Bates shit.

51:52Oti: Yeah. But wow. I think I felt sorry for Tom more than anyone in this show.

51:52KT: But Tom was an outsider. He was really grasping at straws and a

52:03KT: lot of the time, I don't think he wanted to wholly realize, I think on a subconscious level, he realized that, you know, his feelings that he,

52:13KT: you know, burst out at Greg is how he feels in regards to the whole family.

52:13Oti: Yeah. And just to when we're speaking about Tom, you know, I always thought he was just playing dumb because he's around dumb people, and I felt like he had more in his in his locker intellectually. Is it might be a congress hearing? Yeah. And then he the congress hearing, and I was like, fucking hell. The moment where I thought I thought he would actually shine,

52:38Oti: I thought we'd be surprised and it would just fucking be brilliant. And, my god, did he fail? He fell so miserably. Like, he he said he didn't know Greg, but Greg is his assistant. Some people just aren't good with pressure. Oh, wow. Yeah. I was super surprised. And he I guess what you see with Tommy is what you get. Yeah. Yeah. Can't fault that in this day and age. Yeah. But he he was trying to pussy to smotherfuckers.

53:03KT: An interesting thing because as the wow. As the series continued, you know, a lot of the time, even verbally, you would hear the character say, what is Greg doing here? Right? But that's also Tom as well because when the series started, he would be sitting in on family meetings as well. Yeah. He was the Greg before Greg came. Oh, yes. And that's why he gravitated towards Greg just to make him his unknowingly and take it off. He didn't gravitate. He used him as his punching bag

53:27KT: Yeah. To make him feel better. He's he's one of those people where he bullies people, but he only bullies people that are lower than him.

53:34KT: And then the congress meeting them speaking up about it. Tell Greg about the papers? That's what I don't understand. If you want a lackey or you want a mule or you want a scapegoat, why don't you tell the scapegoat what they're a scapegoat for? That's such a dumb thing to do. It is a dumb thing. Yeah. That was really stupid. Between two and 5AM, that was the only time he wasn't sending that email. Chris sends that fucking actually, let's go back to the hearing because

54:01KT: when they were talking about Tom, they're asking him why why do they call him Moe? And it seems like they deduced that the only time they sent emails to, like, addressing Moe wasn't to him directly. And when he was sick, they never addressed him as Moe. Yeah. And then the funny bit was when Willa went to Moe's funeral Yeah. And she went to the widow and was like, oh, I'm so sorry about Moe. And the widow's like, Moe? Confused.

54:26Oti: Yeah. And Con was so fast pulling Willa back. Hey. Hey. His name is actually Lester. We just call him Moe because Moe, Lester. It was a different time though. It was a different time, just to be clear.

54:42KT: So good. The fact that it became a family joke Yeah. Ridiculous. And everyone knew about it. Just so good. Yeah. And I think that's a level of rich that we will never get to. No. Like that humor. Yeah. Oh, and the show looked really good as well. Everything looked expensive. It looked money. Yeah. For sure. HBO's got money, so maybe it was money. But, wow, like, I like the feeling that I would never get to cross paths with any of these guys. That's how rich they are. Except maybe at a sex party. Oh. Tom,

55:17KT: was there a name for the comeback? No. I don't think I'm gonna call it a comeback unless there's a name for it. Suckle of cum? I don't know. Nah. Comeback sounds better too. You reckon? Yeah. Vote now. We'll send you our bank details. Vote now. Yeah. Come back sounds better. I think a lot of the time as well, like, Tom, not even Greg, maybe the way Greg was treated, served as, like, the comedic sort of relief in this. A lot of the funny things were funny because it was dark and it was fucking twisted.

55:52KT: Something I wanna mention in regards to your best friend Kendall, like again, like I don't understand in my head if you're rich, like, mega mega mega rich where apparently, like, giving millions of dollars to victims, which was very sad. But if you've got, like, tens of millions of dollars just to throw away like that, I would assume in my head, in my fantasy world, if people are that rich, they have classes for everything.

56:20KT: Classes for etiquette or you know what? My family wasn't rich but we knew if we had troubles in the family, we keep that shit to ourselves. Kendall didn't learn that lesson. Every time he learned some sort of information, he went and told people out of the family. Why? Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. Because they every time we can go back and watch it, but every time he shared a piece of information, vital information, it was used against him.

56:48Oti: I don't know why he did that. You know, the funny thing about this show is the one thing that I had like, I know from my cycles, family is pretty much everything. Mhmm. And regardless of whatever

57:00Oti: qualms you have with them, you always just stick with family. You can have all the arguments and all the backstabbing, but as as long as it's within the family, it's fine. But once you start involving third parties in Yeah. Externals in, that's when shit now gets real. Yeah. And I think that's the one thing that I I think Kendall just dropped the fucking ball on because he started all this mess of the takeover and the bailout. Kept going back to his friend. Yes. Stewy. Chewie. And he kept telling him shit and I'm like he's made it very clear to you that he's going to back. Well he's going to back wherever the money is. Yeah. But he made that very clear. Yeah. He even told him like yeah I'll all go with the money. But even after that, Kendall kept going back to him and telling him all these secrets. Oh, wow.

57:45Oti: Yeah. He is special.

57:46KT: Wow. Just interesting. An interesting scope of characters. We didn't really get to talk about Rome and Gerri. Rome and Gerri, can that be a new cartoon?

57:57Oti: Wow. Yeah. Adult Swim. Come on, pick it up. Interesting.

58:04KT: Interesting. And I think it was season two, maybe even the final sort of episodes where yeah, it was on the boat and Rome was talking to Logan and he said, is Marcia here? Is there someone you can talk to? Like, can you talk to Marcia? And Logan was like, I don't need therapy. You might wanna fuck your mom, but I'm fine.

58:30Oti: Which is crazy because I didn't think he knew.

58:33KT: No. It's quite blatant.

58:35Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Unless it was just a primo stab in the dark. Mhmm. Because you called it. I was just thinking that he maybe preferred something different.

58:45KT: Actually, yes. Because we let's talk about this because all throughout, I think, like, the first sort of season, you're like, oh, is he gay? Because it was I think the way it was presented to us was he wasn't having sex with his girlfriend. Is that the same girlfriend that walked out that night or that was a different girl? A different Yeah. But in any case, we start to see that he stunted sexually

59:09KT: for whatever reason. And you said he was gay. I'm like, don't do that. Like, that's so like you said with the whole drugs thing. I'm like, that's such a default sort of storyline. Right? He's not having sex with women, so he's gay. I'm like no don't do that to me there is way too much brewing in Rome for that to be the story I refuse I will start a petition because there's so much complexity there Right? Yeah. The way the way he is as a person,

59:40KT: it can't just be it can't just be he's gay. Right? So I was like, oh, I I I need to and him in particular was the reason why I wanted to know what their childhoods were like. Yeah. No glimpses into the childhood, no flashbacks, but I want it. Please, HBO. Please.

59:56Oti: You think that he had a sort of relationship like Norman Bates had with his mother?

59:56KT: I don't even think it's necessarily

60:04KT: the mother in particular. I think it's more how he consumed his childhood.

60:04Oti: Oh. That is that is a erotica novel that KT needs to write.

60:04KT: I don't know if the world needs to read it, but I definitely need to write. Because let's go back to the sex party where he was blaming Kendall for putting him in a cage Yeah. To be a dog. But

60:29KT: it turns out, according to Connor, he actually enjoyed that shit. Yeah. And he might have even asked Kendall to do that to him. So it might not necessarily be a cut and dry Oedipus Yeah. Sort of complex. But it's definitely something that triggers the shit. It's it's it's it's forbidden. It's being told not to do something. And let's have a real conversation. Hello. We are your sex therapists right now. You know, he actually talks to his girlfriend about it and he's like, can we do something that's wrong? If we both agree

61:02KT: that it's right, does it make it not wrong anymore? I think it's again, you know, live your own best lives. If you wanna do missionary for the rest of your life, then that's fine. With all of you, just have a monogamous missionary sort of life. But the fact that Rome was trying to open up and talk about his sexual sort of, you know, ex exploration where he wanted to go, I thought that was quite admirable. It was admirable. To be repressed no. But to be repressed sexually is a dangerous thing. People shouldn't be

61:39KT: like, people shouldn't be besmirched on what gets them off.

61:39Oti: Depending on what it is. Obviously, there are there are some things you wouldn't cross. But I think he went full a 100 with this though. Like

61:39KT: But okay. So so let's let's remove the Oedipus layers. Right?

61:39Oti: So when he was talking to his girlfriend, she was supposed to be dead, but dead bodies don't get wet. Yeah. So it just ruined the family. He

61:39KT: No. But, like, let let let's peel the layers for a bit with my unqualified sex therapy qualifications. What I think

62:11KT: at the crux of Rome's pleasure center, I think it's being forbidden. Because, yes, he goes with Gerri and you can you can deduce it to an Oedipus sort of complex, but I think it's also being dominated and being talked down to. I think he actually gets off on that specifically.

62:31Oti: Why not just start with that with the girlfriend then? Talk down to me and let's go from there. Not just lay there like a dead body and not getting wet. That's just super weird to tell anyone to fast. But then he tried to climb on top of it and she was like, oh, that was really sexy. Well, fuck off then.

62:46KT: Like, sex can be such a great thing, but it also needs to be an open forum when you can communicate effectively. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Whatever. I know you feel like just because I'm the president of the Rome fan club, but really, like, if if he gets off sexually different ways that aren't so vanilla,

63:07KT: then that's fine. He's not hurting anyone.

63:07Oti: He's not hurting anyone, but, mate, there are ways to approach people. Deep your toe in fast rather than just being like, mate, lay there and be dead. Like, I I don't know. Maybe I'm just I'm just fucking rude on this, but I thought he could have handled that better regardless of whether or not you think

63:27KT: because I've and I I completely agree with you. It it needs to be a forum. It needs to be a discussion. It to be some sort of But you're making it like maybe that wasn't the first time they spoke about it.

63:27Oti: It was the first time. It was the first time because she didn't understand what was going

63:27KT: Whatever it is, but it's just like, I don't know, man. Like, I don't know why you're being conservative here because you aren't when the mics are off. I

63:50KT: think you're trying to keep that conservative sort of listenership. Right? But, like, poo poo somewhere else unless that's your fetish. What I wanted to say is if people have, you know, sexual sort of explorations, they should be allowed to want to discuss that.

63:50Oti: Agreed. I'm not I I don't have any qualms with that.

63:50KT: I think he just wants to be dominated by a strong woman.

64:14Oti: Mhmm.

64:15KT: You should know what that's like.

64:17Oti: Hey. Hey.

64:21KT: Oh my. But that's the point. That's what I wanted to get at. I literally just wanted to watch Rome and Gerri. Yeah.

64:28Oti: I just wanted to watch that. I wanted to watch Those two make sense. And they like, just how they engage with each other. Rome defended Gerri not to be not to be thrown at the wolves of the congress because Gerri made sense, you know? Like Okay.

64:43KT: We'll we'll talk about sexual hang ups later, but I feel like Rome gets off on, like, being told he's doing wrong, like, being punished.

64:52Oti: Yeah. But I'll I just love that those two together, like, they pretty much made a good team. And the fact that Rome was trying to watch Gerri's back not to be thrown at the wolves in congress and stuff, That just made me overjoyed.

65:06KT: It's always helpful to have alliances. Definitely when it comes to this family. Speaking of, I love how Connor is like the forgotten child. Even in the last episode of season two, Gerri was commending Kendall and she said the first second born. And, like, again, if we wanna talk about the childhoods, I would love to know what Connor went through. Yeah. He he And I think Shiv called him the first pancake. Because, you know, when you make pancakes, the first one's usually wobbly. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

65:41KT: The the fact that he's so far at least in the first season, he was as far away from his family as possible. Right? I would love to know what he because yeah he would have got the worst sort of discipline right and you know even at that time Logan was probably more free with his time in regards to when he was building his little empire. I wonder because he looked he looks like a well-to-do guy. Yeah.

66:11Oti: But fucking hell, there is some shit that is not resolved. Plus there seems to be an a sort of age gap between him and and and Kendall. So you know definitely those are some shit there. And I don't think they have the same mom either. No. Yeah.

66:25KT: And the fact that he's with Willa, when we first when we were first introduced, I think it was with Greg. Rome was explaining to Greg that she was a high class escort. I thought I was just trying to haze him. But yeah. Because it it was Rome. Right? So you never know whether he's talking shit or not. But she was and she is. Yeah. And she's also a playwright. I think Kendall was commending Willa on being a playwright. And then she's like, well, I've always been a playwright. I've told you that.

66:56KT: Fucking hell, man. Sometimes it's good to have struggle. I think that's the tagline for today because, you you've got all the money for a play production but you didn't have any legitimate people in your production team. So if it's shit, it's shit. Yeah. So sometimes it's good to have a struggle so you can get to the the real gem, the real, you know, gems in the sandstone.

67:20Oti: And for your first playwright, do you really want all the super hard critics to come and review your fucking

67:29KT: Can you just imagine can you just imagine the way Connor was, daddy can you give us some reviews daddy?

67:36Oti: Just go and push some you know just push some back and tell them to give us a good review Could you imagine just having that much power? Yeah and if not daddy can you just give me a little a 100,000,000 Oh, yeah. Just casually. Oh my god.

67:50KT: But that money is just there. Yeah. Like, that wasn't even money for them to worry about. Bloody hell, man. And Logan was like, drop out of the race. You're embarrassing all of us. Someone had to tell him. Yeah. Actually, no. Everyone was telling him it was a bad idea. And he told people to shut the fuck up. Yeah. Because of the Conheads. Oh, he's gifable. Oh, sorry. He said gif. Friends and lovers, tell us where you sit in the gif gif sort of department. But

68:20Oti: what a show. What a show indeed.

68:22KT: I am so glad we came across this. Well, we knew it was always there, but I'm glad we dived into this show. It's well worth it. It's it's super bingeable. You'll find yourself. It's an hour long each episode, but it doesn't feel like it. And the tension is there. It

68:39KT: is palpable.

68:39Oti: Yeah. And it's not like some of the Netflix binging to make you binge that, you know, they just put a climax at the end of an episode. Like, you know, how Family Guy did it in the cutaway? Family Guy did the cutaway. Well, the whole episode, they're just staring at the sea and then the end, Peter pushes Stewie into the water. Yeah. Watch the next episode. But, no, nothing like that. It's interesting throughout. It's it's fucking amazing.

69:09KT: And I think and exactly what Oti was saying at the start, it's very rare for us to not give a shit about any of the characters but be fucking captivated.

69:22Oti: Yeah. Super bloody rare. I think this is the first thing I've seen like that, to be honest.

69:28KT: To have, like, to have at least one character that you fucking love. Right? Yeah. Because I think it's it's the dance. Right? It it is it is the dance that you have between the characters. The endless betrayals. Mhmm. The cloak and daggers that really bring it all together. But just to close out this episode, again, thank you guys so much for listening. We appreciate it. If you feel like we should have added some more stuff to the episode or if you just wanna continue the conversation.

70:00KT: You know, if you want if you wanna enter the For Your Reference sex clinic, be aware. We do charge, but, you know, all of the pleasure is free, gratis. I just wanna finish off with a quote that was engraved on the watch that Logan gave to Frank. Some work of noble note may yet be done,

70:20KT: not unbecoming men that strove with gods. Super strong, mate. And that's how we'll finish it. We will wrap up in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

70:20Oti: Yo. Wow. I think the only thing in my mind right now that I could recommend happily is Rome.

70:20KT: Nice.

70:39Oti: Because I could draw parallels with it. I think we've already recommended it before, but Rome is super solid. You have We definitely need to cover it. Lucius Vorenus, Titus Pullo, bloody hell. Just go and watch HBO. I'm not even going to try and explain anything further rather than it's fucking Rome. Watch it. For Romulus alone.

70:39KT: Yep. I will reference

70:59KT: the Korean Netflix show Kingdom. Hot doggy. Hot diggity dog. Hot diggity dog. And it is coming back in twenty twenty twenty. Mhmm. Hopefully soon. Mhmm. And we will definitely need to do an episode on that as well. It doesn't have as many players vying for the throne, but it is just as thrilling. Yeah.

71:21Oti: Yep. Agreed.

71:23KT: So that's it, guys. We did it. Keep your fluids to yourself. Unless they're out already, then you're more than welcome to share. On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We have a Patreon if you want to contribute to that as well, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.