Game of Thrones – Unhand me you Baratheon!

Full transcript of Game of Thrones – Unhand me you Baratheon!.

0:01KT: Hey. Welcome back to For Your Reference. This segment is called Your Phrase or Mine. And Oti is our studious man that holds the phrase for this week. So

0:15Oti: this is a Swedish proverb. Okay. And it goes like this. The pillow is the best adviser.

0:24KT: I will take it on the interpretation that the person that you lay within your bed chambers probably tells you the most truth. Therefore, that's where you get the best advice. No. No. I'm Don't laugh. I'm not finished.

0:43Oti: What what can you add to this? Question rings. So it means that sleep on a problem and see how you feel in the morning.

0:59KT: I was expecting seductive pillows.

1:03Oti: Oh, from your answer, I can't. True. There's a market for everything. Alright.

1:08KT: So let's head on over to the main part of the show, guys. Hey, guys. How are you going? Welcome to another week of For Your Reference podcast with your cohost, KT and Oti. And this week kinda feels like a problem because I won Your Phrase or Mine last week, And yet this week, we're doing Game of Thrones. To one's chagrin and to one's pleasure. That's what we're covering this week. As you guys will know, we're literally within a week of the last season premiering. Yep.

2:10KT: So we thought this would be a good time to cover this HBO phenomenon that has shaken the world and taken the world by storm.

2:10Oti: Yeah. And about time to get you to actually watch it.

2:10KT: Yes. That is true. For many years, I've managed to evade. I've zigzagged away from

2:27Oti: There's something Rick couldn't do?

2:30KT: It's dick on.

2:33Oti: That's a different character. And,

2:35KT: yes, I have avoided Game of Thrones for years. But to be fair, I actually did give Game of Thrones not when it first end. I think a couple of years after it end. I actually did watch the first season. And you know what? What? The sun came up the next day. Oh, did it? The clock kept turning. The my life didn't change by watching Game of Thrones in any way. Winter's coming. Do you hear that? Yeah. It's the pitter patter of keyboard warriors and Game of Thrones enthusiasts out there,

3:08KT: and they're coming to get me. I am ready. Me and my Vikings, we will die a glorious death defending my my views. So yeah. So here we are. Seventy arduous onerous hours later. I just watched Game of Thrones for the first time and Oti, this is your second time.

3:08Oti: Yep.

3:08KT: That says a lot considering how much you said Game of Thrones is the best show.

3:08Oti: Was just waiting for you. Twice. I was just waiting for you.

3:08KT: Hang on a second. If we were to draw a Venn diagram of super hardcore Game of Thrones fans

3:45KT: and people that were nonchalant about it, you would be in the slither in between. Because I am I am almost guaranteeing you, people that are obsessed with Game of Thrones have definitely watched it more than two times all the way to it.

3:45Oti: That period of me actually waiting for you, I started reading the books.

4:02Oti: Granted, I didn't finish, but I started. I got up to the fourth book.

4:02KT: This is an iconic episode because that's a deal breaker for me.

4:11KT: I will indulge your geekiness early to this level. How dare you? All these years you've been lying to me. Well, there you go. We will definitely go into this series and characters that I found intrinsically problematic that you didn't even seem to have a problem with, but the foundations definitely crumble. But before we get to that, let me attempt a non fan and even after seventy hours, let me attempt to capture essentially what shows centers around.

4:51Oti: Yeah. Okay.

4:53KT: So in a nutshell, you have seven kingdoms vying for the throne. A game of thrones, if you will.

5:02Oti: Roll credits. Are we done? Can we go home now? Yep.

5:07KT: So you've got seven kingdoms vying for the throne. And obviously, there's lots of debauchery. There's lots of betrayal. There's a whole lot of skeeviness and little fingeriness that goes on. Oh my. Oh, little fingeriness. That didn't sound right.

5:22Oti: No. It sounded perfect.

5:25KT: It's a show about incest essentially, so I think I'm doing okay. Not even. Like, Littlefinger was dubious ass, you know, so just goes to show.

5:25Oti: He was he was quite crafty though. He he knew what he was doing.

5:25KT: Crafty my ass. Okay. Well, shout out shout out to you, Littlefinger, because you got mentioned before we even got to the main segment. So let's talk about seven kingdoms. So you've got the Vale, which was ruled by House Arryn. We really didn't get much of an introduction in regards to Jon Arryn,

5:59KT: just the fact that he died a mysterious death

6:02Oti: Yeah.

6:04KT: Who was married to Lysa and had that creepy kid Robin. Mhmm. We also have the land of the Riverlands for House Tully.

6:04Oti: Tully, you mean?

6:04KT: I'm pretty sure the authentic fans call it House Tully.

6:19Oti: Just the racist ones.

6:22KT: Oh my. Authentic is the word. So in House Tully, we have Lady Catelyn, who was married to Eddard Stark. Mhmm. We also have her brother, Edmure, who I'm pretty sure was in prison for, like, two seasons and everyone forgot about him. Yeah. True. And then going to the North, we have House Stark. So we've got, obviously, Ed Stark. We've also got Benjen, who is the brother that everyone wants to have. Yeah. Super solid.

6:59Oti: He's a he's a solid character used very sparingly.

7:04KT: And that's exactly what you want. He was reminiscent to me of Rollo in Vikings.

7:11Oti: Rollo in the later seasons. Yeah. Oh, come on now. Rollo was used quite a lot in all the episodes up until

7:19KT: Yeah. But in the sound bite, he was the brother that you wanted to have Yeah. In the flanks with you True that. Side by side. Yeah. Just as long as you leave your wife far away from him, everything will be fine. Hey, man. It's not his fault he was a pussy magnet. I'm not sure about Benjen, but, you know Oh, hey. He's a wildling magnet. So in the Stark family, you've got the iconic children, Robb Stark, Sansa, Arya, the tree one, Bran? And Bran. And Truman. It's fucking boring. The tree I agree.

7:59KT: Dude, he was around trees more than he was around the raven. And Rickon Mhmm. The one that doesn't know how to zigzag.

8:07Oti: Yeah. Yeah.

8:09KT: So there you go. Ruling the North where winter was always coming. Winter? Like, she's not a horny bitch. She won't come for you every time. Settle down.

8:19Oti: Oh, wow. Right?

8:22KT: Shit's about to get real. And then over the Stormlands, we have House Baratheon, which gave us a lot of kindle to the fire. You've got Robert Baratheon, who was the king at the time. You also have Stannis Baratheon and all of the problematic sort of behaviors that he had and Renly. Renly. Renly Baratheon. Also, shout out to Shireen. Beautiful queen of everything, Shireen. Has to be one of the most likable characters in the show. Right? One of the most likable. And you know what made her also very likable?

9:00KT: Considering her origin story, if you will, it's surprising she wasn't full of hate, and she wanted to plot against murdering her parents. True. She was locked in that. Sweet soul. Yeah. And and her interactions with Ser Davos Seaworth. Oh. That in itself. Mhmm. Just it it warmed my cold cold heart. Gave interactions between

9:26Oti: Tyrion and Bronn a run for their money.

9:30KT: Oh, come on now. Does. Come on now. That that's a bit of a tasty morsel. Don't give it to the listeners now. Make them stick around for a few minutes. We also have the Westerlands, which is overseen by House Lannister, taken up by the Targaryens. But you've got House Lannister, so you have Tywin at the helm. I don't think we ever really saw his wife. She might have been mentioned in passing, but we've got Tywin at the helm. And then you've got his children, the children that lick each other's children,

10:07KT: Jaime and Cersei, and then you've also got Tyrion motherfucking Lannister.

10:13Oti: One of the best characters in the show. One of the best charac

10:13KT: Not even one of the best. I'll go as far to say he's the best character in the show. He's had the most character development

10:25KT: throughout the whole series.

10:28Oti: I wouldn't go as far to say in terms of character development.

10:32KT: Man, you're fickle as hell.

10:35Oti: Just because he's the best star character doesn't mean that he's had the most development in the show. Fickle as hell.

10:42KT: More fickle than Littlefinger. And then Cersei's children, we have Joffrey, Myrcella, and also Tommen.

10:54Oti: Yeah. But I think we'll just keep that for now and cover them later. Let's let's continue on.

11:00KT: And then we've also got overlooking the Reach. We have House Tyrell. We have my bad bitch, undisputed assassinator, Olenna. My girl, going out, sipping drinks, talking shit about people. Me and Olenna, OGs to the end of time. You happy with that? I fucking love her, man. She has so many shady moments. And you know what? Actually, they weren't even shade. She was just blunt. If she didn't like you, she would let you know. There was a scene where Cersei was making a snide comment talking about the tart Queen of Thorns.

11:48KT: And then Olenna was like, oh, it's the famous tart queen Cersei. Yeah. She she did have some good comeback, but So good. She's my motherfucking g. I fucking love Olenna. So you've got her at the house. So you're in for a good time if you're around the Tyrells or the family of thorns. You've also got Lady Margaery, and you've also got Ser Loras.

12:15Oti: Yeah. And what about House Martell? Tell us more about that.

12:21KT: In House Martell, we've got I think he's a king, Doran, the one in the wheelchair. Yeah. The Xavier of House Martell. And then we've got Oberyn, my Pedro Pascal. Fucking love seeing him there. Because Game of Thrones has been out for a few years, I think I saw a semblance of him being Game of Thrones. I didn't realize how big of a part he would play Oh. In this show. So I in any capacity, if I can ever see this man acting,

12:55KT: and he's pretty much typecast as that sexual playboy, and I'm all for it. So whenever I can see Pedro Pascal being Pedro Pascal, I am all for it. I am here. The popcorn's ready. My tea's ready. My snack's ready. We're ready to go. And then you've also got Oberyn's wife and their daughters, or it's just one of them, his daughter. I don't know. But you've got a whole family in the house, Martell. So we've also got the substantial House of Targaryen.

13:26KT: So they don't necessarily have a place in this new world when the series starts. But my favorite Targaryen is Maester Aemon. And I called it. I called it. I was like, babe, he's a Targaryen. And you didn't want to say anything. The fact that you didn't say anything, I was like, I know I got that right. Yeah, you did.

13:48Oti: You did. What enlightened you to the fact that he's a Targaryen?

13:54KT: I think it was more just his features and the fact that he's blind. Usually, in these sorts of shows, they're they're very auspicious. So the fact that he was blind, I was like, oh, something must have happened to him. And why is he at the Wall? But that's pretty much it for the Targaryens. I don't really have anything else to say about that family.

14:17Oti: Yeah. Cool. So let's talk about our initial thoughts of what you experienced during the show, your feelings about the show, your just a general overview.

14:34KT: Okay. So general overview, I again, I didn't watch the show. I only watched it a couple of years after it first aired in 2011. I didn't think it was that great. And, again, my life continued after that. Barely. Mhmm. You tracked me because you told me that this was the last season. So I'm like, okay. And obviously, for you guys last season. Yeah. But there are also prequels. So you lied. Can choose to skip those, entrapment, dude. That's entrapment. And I will take that all the way to court. Yeah. So I watched it because,

15:14KT: I guess, if I wanna say I don't like something and people are going to tell me that I'm wrong like you, that it is actually a good show, I wanna be able to articulately, vehemently argue why this show isn't that great. And I feel like I can do that now because, again, I've got seventy hours under my belt where I I don't know where I'm gonna get that back. I don't know who I need to write to. Maybe OTR Armanin.

15:45Oti: Oh, yeah. I take requests.

15:49KT: And I don't just a side note, South Park made a lot of jokes about there being heaps of gay sex in Game of Thrones. I don't think there was a lot of that. No. There aren't a lot of dicks swinging about on the show. But If you do wanna see dicks swinging, you sure what HBO's show is? Just for that. Well Not even pretty dicks. You'll just see real dicks. Trust that's not all for your reference for this show.

16:17Oti: So my thought is that watching this a second time, I got to see a lot of other things that I thought I'd missed. Of course, reading the book goes so much more granular details, but rewatching the show a second time, I got to appreciate some more characters that I didn't especially like in the first run. Okay. I got to appreciate Tywin Lannister.

16:43KT: I really respect the Tywin though.

16:47Oti: I wouldn't go so far to say respect, but I saw where he was coming from. He wasn't just being a dick to be a dick. There was some sort of reasoning behind it, and he always looked at the bigger picture. It was always Lannisters against the world, and everything he tried to do up until then was to maintain that sort of level. And I don't know, the first time watching it, was like, oh, this fucking Lannisters.

17:13Oti: Because I don't even think I liked Jaime that much in the first the first time watching

17:13KT: I really like Jaime.

17:13Oti: But the second time Jaime is quite he liked his sister, but I really liked Jaime. No one can like anyone more than Jaime like Cersei.

17:26KT: He was so devoted. He was like a little puppy. But going back to Tywin, I you know, we're both from a generation where our parents were brought up to place more importance on societal values and the perception of your family over your kids wants and desires and their actual sense of being. So from that point of view, watching Tywin be a fucking dick to Tyrion, I wasn't a fan of that, but I could also understand that that's kind of the place that he's coming from. And let's not disregard his years in military combat

18:09KT: and the fact that he does have wisdom, not just on the battlefield, but also just in being able to rule a people. And that's why I have a lot of qualms with some other characters in Game of Thrones because they actually didn't have any sort of sense of what it meant to actually kill or execute their own malicious orders to kill.

18:09Oti: But not everyone has to execute it in order.

18:35Oti: You're a leader for a reason. You're a leader to be a strategist.

18:35KT: But without that, you don't have the grounding of

18:42KT: great decisions. So let's just capture off on Tywin because there is so much that happens in Game of Thrones, and we're not looking to do an episode by episode play. This is going to be a one podcast sort of niche. Oh, I said niche like an American. Niche.

19:00Oti: My bad. Is it do they say niche? They do.

19:04KT: Ew. Yeah. You got a niche, you need a scratch.

19:08Oti: That doesn't sound right at all.

19:11KT: We love Americans. If you we do have some American listeners, so shout out to you guys. Hopefully, you can understand anything we say. But, yeah, niche was out to you guys. So let's let's talk about Tywin because we probably won't be able to get back to him. He had the he was first of all, he was born into the right family. Right is a relative word. But if you're talking about prestige and power, he was born into the right family.

19:40KT: He pretty much took all the steps that a doting son should do as a Lannister. He went out. He was in military. He married the right woman. He had all the beautiful kids, And he he ruled for a long time quite well where he was. He's the image of, like, an OG sort of guy. He doesn't really say I love you, but, you know, he he'll give you kingdoms, and he'll give you Casterly Rock, which Jaime kept rejecting. Right? But let let's continue with the Lannisters. Let's leave Tyrion because Tyrion's in his own lane.

20:16KT: But let's let's capture off the the rest of the Lannisters. Jaime.

20:21Oti: Jaime is a great character. He goes so far into his development, and I I'd reckon he has more character development than Tyrion, the one you actually love in this.

20:21KT: Oh, come on now. I will fight you in these streets.

20:21Oti: No. Because we start off as Jaime being tunnel visioned, and he was just for him and the Lannisters and the sister. But throughout the episode and after his interaction with Brienne, you could see that he was changing, he saw the world in a different from a different perspective and he knew that being ruthless and being

21:01Oti: as bad as the way they they've been carrying out their orders or whatever for the past few years, it wasn't the way to go. And we saw that in the last season.

21:12KT: But I don't think that's fair.

21:14Oti: He actually splits with Cersei.

21:16KT: But I don't think that's fair to say because Jaime did have a heart and he did demonstrate that in many ways. By pushing At the Hang on. At the start of the series, he was known as the Kingslayer. Right? Or like, oh, he's motherfucking badass. Because even at that time, I didn't know who to stand at the time. But later on in the series, and I'm pretty sure it's when he's confiding with Brienne, he talks about that actual day when he did slay the king and it was actually because

21:50KT: the king wanted to kill everyone with that green wildfire

21:55Oti: Wildfire.

21:56KT: With wildfire. And that's actually the underlying reason as to why Jaime stopped. Because even though he didn't really care for the common folk and it didn't really affect him in any way,

22:07KT: that wasn't right. And he knew in his heart that that wasn't right. And that was actually before the series started. So you can't tell me that Jaime didn't have a heart at the

22:07Oti: was more internal. He didn't go telling people his reasons are. You know? He kept it internally like, oh

22:07KT: But he still made that decision.

22:07Oti: Guy under wraps, you know, and then and then

22:28Oti: coming to towards the whole, you know, he he you could see that he started to emanate but he still did that.

22:36KT: Right? And even even going back to Jaime, I guess you could argue he was born into the right family. He wasn't born into the right family, but he didn't have that ruthless nature of the Lannisters. He was more majestic as a lion as opposed to ruthless. Right? Mhmm. The sigil. Yeah. He wanted to be the Kingsguard. He didn't want to have castle or He wasn't even interested in having a family, having kids, probably because he had Cersei on the side, but he wasn't someone that was wanting for power. True.

23:15KT: So as you as you continue to see his journey and then when he got his hand cut off, I knew that was gonna happen. I'm like, Jaime, pull your fucking head in. You're being a dickhead. Like, stop stop acting so superior even though you probably are. Stop acting superior because you're gonna get your hand chopped off. But Jaime was a a joy to watch. I I definitely enjoyed seeing his journey, continuing to see his journey unfold. I I did love me a little bit of Jaime Brienne sort of scene.

23:48KT: Yeah. So I I welcome that. But I also ship Brienne and. Tormund. Tormund. Tormund. But I will get swept away in a world of fantasy if we get into that now. So let's just leave that for a second. Let's talk about Cersei and the kids.

24:10Oti: Cersei. Cersei is ruthless. She's vindictive.

24:18KT: She's a fucking coward.

24:20Oti: She's not a coward. She she wouldn't say she's a coward.

24:27KT: She's not a great character in terms of What of her executing orders did she ever do herself?

24:34Oti: She doesn't have to do anything. She has the power to command people to do it.

24:34KT: No. No. No, man.

24:34Oti: And she did she did go through some shit when she was being tortured and not tortured, but she was kept in a room by the High Septon.

24:34KT: Yeah. But she had already run amok by then.

24:52KT: She had already destroyed lives by that point.

24:55Oti: But he could tell she knew she was gonna come back. Shame.

25:00Oti: You can have your opinion, but shame. I fucking love that bitch. She was the best.

25:00KT: But okay. Let's let's talk about Cersei. There's I did not I did not care for her at all. I thought she was a weak woman even when she was a kid. She was weak.

25:00Oti: No, she's not weak.

25:00KT: You're weak for not letting me finish my point because you know I'm right.

25:26KT: Even when she was a kid and she stumbled across a witch, the witch is like, you're going to have three kids and they're all gonna die. They're gonna be miserable. Wouldn't like as a kid, wouldn't that make you feel, oh shit, I need to pull my head in?

25:39Oti: Nah, she was like, so it's reading, let it be done, mate. I'm not gonna change the fate of the world. I'm not gonna change my fate. Might as well just live and enjoy time with Jaime.

25:39KT: There's something disgusting about people that want to hurt others and actually don't get their hands dirty, and that was unforgivable to me. The okay. So she she did a lot of shit

26:00KT: throughout the series. Even early on from the series, she was fucking terrible to Sansa. She was terrible to tear the way she treated Tyrion, it's like you're a grown woman, and you're still blaming your brother for killing your mother. Get the fuck over it. Forget the fuck on your brother because that's what you've been doing. Right? I'm not a fan. So, you know, I I was never a fan of the Cersei sort of circle, so whatever. But I guess the point of no return for me is when she killed essentially everyone in that courthouse

26:33KT: just to get rid of the Tyrells and also the High Septon. Yeah. The High Septon. That was that was unforgivable to me, and I was not a fan of that. And the fact that Tommen killed himself because of that, and she didn't feel any sort of remorse that she might have contributed to that.

26:33Oti: She felt remorse.

26:33KT: No.

26:33Oti: No. She felt remorse.

26:33KT: She didn't.

26:33Oti: Go and watch her back.

26:33KT: She did not.

26:57Oti: Well, the thing with Cersei looking to blame Tyrion. She kept looking to blame no, man. The thing with Cersei is she tried to control Joffrey. Ned Stark dying was not out of Cersei,

27:06KT: like, trying to think how do you think he got like that? Aside from

27:06Oti: You can't put it on.

27:06KT: Aside from brothers and sisters getting busy, how else do you think he got like that? This has to be genetic. There's some messed up genes in there. No. Because even even while we were sitting there, we were like, you know, this is the result of not smacking your kids.

27:29Oti: Well, then again, no one smacks their kids nowadays, so you'd have millions, millions, and millions of Joffreys.

27:38KT: Have you met the world?

27:41Oti: Well, then it's indicative of what's happening now.

27:45KT: Okay. This is not going to become some This is not going to become some altruistic mirror to society. Fuck off.

27:56Oti: Well, so whatever you think about Cersei, she had to do to she had to do whatever she had to to survive.

27:56KT: I don't agree.

27:56Oti: Blowing up the car the High Septon and everyone with it, I was like, you know what? Those guys almost ruined the show for me. I hate all this religious boohacker when nothing really happens and those just trying to oppress people, but all in the name of religion. So started getting rid of them, I have no confidence with that. So let's let's talk about the Starks.

28:28KT: Yep. How did you feel?

28:31Oti: So the Starks are the North. So you have Eddard Stark Uh-huh. And he's this holier than thou kind of personality and

28:45KT: Well, it was his virtue that got him killed.

28:45Oti: It is. Well, not that got him killed, but he probably could have

28:53Oti: stayed alive if he had compromised his virtue. Yeah. Yeah. Like what Littlefinger told him, take the castle, take the throne now, just do it and be and rule over you know but he was too good a man. He was too good a man and that led to his downfall. Sure. So Eddard, he's loyal, he kept his sister's secret that are we spoiling it now? Or is it too early?

29:24KT: Welcome. If you've never listened to any one of our episodes, we drip in the spoilers. So spoiler town, population, KT and Oti, and you listening. So beware. I'm pretty sure we've already spoiled stuff, but beware.

29:24Oti: Yeah. So Eddard takes

29:42Oti: Lyanna's kid from her marriage with Rhaegar.

29:48KT: Yes. Targaryen?

29:49Oti: Yep. And this kid, he passes off passes it off as his own and Catelyn goes berserk and just treats Jon Snow as worse as she can like she was really being a bitch to him which you know to some point you're like you understand but it's not the kid's fault. If anything you'd should be angry at, you should be angry at Eddard.

30:16KT: True. So

30:19Oti: there's nothing more to speak on Eddard in terms of, well, it's all his scenario and him getting killed that start up the war in the first place, but he played as a catalyst of this show, so his role was more to catalyze every action that would proceed from it. Other than that, he was just a good guy trying to live his life.

30:38KT: He was and he was very honorable. But if you had a child that wasn't yours, would you pretend that the child was yours because it was for the safety of that child?

30:53Oti: Yeah. Really? Yeah. But the thing is, I would probably tell you.

30:59KT: Well, where's your honor?

31:02Oti: You're my partner. You're supposed to know everything about me. So why would I not tell you? It will be a secret for both of us to share, not me to just hold it by myself and then you hating my guts for it.

31:14KT: Yeah. But I think that's the point because Catelyn hated the kid for years. Yeah and So let's continue. The kids in the Stark family and their direwolves. Yeah. Can I just say I did cry a few times through the duration of Game of Thrones and 80% of my crying was related to the direwolves dying?

31:44KT: I don't know, man. You give me a sad dog video and I will be a mess. Like, there are times when Oti needs to take my phone away with me away from me because I just get carried away and I keep watching sad dog videos and I'm pretty much incapacitated for the rest of the day. But going back to the Stark kids, we've got Robb Stark, our bodyguard man.

32:08Oti: Mhmm.

32:10KT: He was okay. He was pretty boring.

32:14Oti: He was a strategist.

32:16KT: I had never watched the Red Wedding, but I knew he was gonna die. Like, leading up to whatever the Red Wedding was going to be, it was getting tense. And I'm like, okay. Things are happening. They're talking about the Stark family. I think it's about time someone dies, and I think it's gonna be Robb.

32:38Oti: Because what else does he have to offer? Yeah. He didn't have much to offer. And the fact that he decided to marry that lady what was her name? Whatever the hell her name was. Pretty nobody. Yeah. A pretty nobody when he promised to marry

32:54KT: Filch. Filch's daughter.

32:58Oti: Who's Filch?

32:59KT: Walder Frey. Filch from Harry Potter.

33:02Oti: Oh. With a cat. Crossover's

33:04KT: me. He's also in After Life. Listen to our episode of After Life if you haven't listened to it. Yeah. Because he did promise, and that was hinging on them being able to cross safely past the bridge.

33:17KT: And I didn't like that because he was not a man of his word. I don't know what he inherited out of Eddard Stark, but it definitely wasn't honor or integrity. Yeah. And the fact that he'd go there with his this so called wife now and Just to throw it in his face. Yeah. That was I was like, no. That's not right. But you know what I did say? It just goes to show that it doesn't matter if you're dirt poor. If you've got a nice face, you can pull yourself out of poverty. Clearly.

33:45KT: Right? Clearly. Yeah. The shows are nobody. Yeah. Came coming out of nowhere. So I think Robb's had enough time because we're going to give even less time to Bran. So Robb's

33:57Oti: And you're not even gonna talk about Rickon. Rickon.

34:02KT: Bitch. He was an idiot. Those arrows, because we're not gonna talk about Rickon apart from this. Those arrows kept coming towards him. Right? What did you think to, like like, dodge and roll? Like, roll around? Or, like Not even roll. Just zigzag, man. What what do do something. Dear. Something. Be in charge of your own destiny. Well, that's what happened

34:26Oti: in charge of anything in this entire show, so I I wouldn't even he was being protected by the wildling, Osha, and he did nothing. And we've wasted enough time just talking about him. Yeah. He did more than Bran.

34:40KT: You can't even call him Brandon. He was too plain for that. Just Bran.

34:44Oti: Well, Bran hasn't done much yet, but he'll

34:44KT: If you're interested in hearing me

34:50KT: drone on about how much I hate Bran for an hour, let me know. And we might put that as a bonus episode next to my Daniel Kaluuya appreciation episode. Yeah. But Bran was fucking useless. I just just go away. And by the end of it

34:50Oti: He's a three-eyed raven. How is he useless? He knows everything.

34:50KT: Okay. This is let's let's talk about this. One of the worst parts of this series involved Bran When he was, like, doing his little storm eyes and he was what do they call it? Warging? Warging? Warging.

35:27KT: He was warging and he was trying to infiltrate the night army. Is that what they're called? Yeah. He was trying to see where they were situated. And then the Night King comes towards him and grabs his arm, and he gets scared and he wakes up. The the tree man goes, oh, did he touch you? And Bran's like, no. He didn't. Yeah, motherfucker. You got touched by the Night King.

35:58Oti: Yeah. You kidding me?

36:00KT: Yeah. He got up by the knocking. And then they fully got infiltrated into their little tree cave, and all of those beautiful tree Amazonian ladies had to die because Bran was a fucking idiot.

36:14Oti: Oh, yeah. I can't argue that. Try. I can't argue with that. Don't even try. That's a case closed on Bran.

36:20KT: We're done. Sansa will get less time than Arya, so let's talk about Sansa.

36:26Oti: Sansa was shown as a weakling throughout the whole episode the whole most of the season where she just kept on trying to find a house, but in trying to be this sort of princess and be in the throne and be a queen, and she was all about glamour and glit and just didn't work for me. She was naive. She didn't understand how things worked, and it took us so long to realize what the actual fuck and actually wake up. Not a fan of Sansa.

36:58Oti: And when she did try and use Littlefinger or Littlefinger was using her, whichever you wanna argue with, it's just I was like, come on, man. The whole fucking show you've been useless. And now you're going to have Littlefinger play you. And then we come out to the end where

36:58KT: No. I think she plays the Littlefinger.

36:58Oti: They're actually trying to they're actually trying to put Arya and Sansa against each other, and I'm like, the

37:27Oti: fact that they actually worked for a bit, I was like, hell, man.

37:27KT: I think the problem with Sansa is she was a highborn,

37:35KT: and she remained mentally a highborn even at points of survival, which became problematic to me. As soon as she got to King's Landing, which she was so happy to go to King's Landing, she couldn't wait to get the fuck out of Winterfell. But when she got to King's Landing, she started to dress and have her hair like Cersei. And then when the Tyrells Tyrells. Tyrells. Sorry. When they came, she started to do her hair like Lady Margaery. Like, she was fully trying to mold herself without even knowing who she was as a person. Yeah.

38:09KT: Her getting married to Ramsay wasn't great. There were a lot of rape scenes in Game of Thrones, more than enjoyable sex scenes in the show. But yeah. So that that wasn't great. And I'm you know, obviously, no one's cheering that that happened to Sansa. But I do wish that she kind of took her destiny by the reins a bit more. She kind of just accepted. And again, not the rape part, but she kind of just accepted that shitty things are going to happen to her.

38:44KT: When you contrast it to Arya, she definitely could have done more. She could have done more and

38:50Oti: She was always waiting on a a gallant knight to save her. Yeah. I just hope season eight is different for her. She actually grabs

38:58KT: Well, just don't show her. Just don't show her because it's, what, five or six episodes this time? Yeah. Six episodes, I think. So there there won't be enough time to cover her. So let's talk about the OG Arya. And I think it depended. Some actors called her Arya, and then some actors called her Arya. I heard Arya through her. But based on the spelling, it's Arya. It's Arya.

39:22Oti: I guess it depends where you come from. Well, she's she's a nobody.

39:26KT: She has no name, so it doesn't matter.

39:29Oti: So she's really good. She has she's always tried to fight like the boys, like his brothers, and she had this mentality of what they can do, I should be able to do. She was a complete polar opposite of what Sansa was or what Sansa is, and we we take him through a journey where she tries to, train. She's taught how to use Needle, by the sword master, the dancing master.

39:59KT: Well, given to her by Jon Snow.

40:03Oti: Yeah. Yeah. And we also know that Arya and Jon Snow are super tight, like Yeah. Really, really close. But, yeah, she's just a solid character through and through. You'd you feel like in every situation, you'd want to be an Arya in that, you know, in a situation you laugh, you'll be like, oh, Arya do. Oh, yeah.

40:24KT: She's unfortunately, she's in the minority of strong woman characters in this series.

40:31Oti: Yeah. Yeah.

40:33KT: I will I would I would argue that there are only three strong women characters in this series as So she's one of let's let's get through everyone we need to get through, and I will tell you all my delicious theories.

40:46Oti: Alright. And then we have Jon Snow. The bastard. What do you think?

40:52KT: You know what? I think part of the problem is this show has been overhyped to hell or to winter hell, if you'll pardon the pun. So I really thought in my mind that Jon Snow was going to be a really substantial bitey sort of character. But he was actually quite vanilla by the end of it.

41:15Oti: He wasn't vanilla to

41:17KT: Like, he wasn't really that special. He was you literally came back from the dead. You literally could call him bastard number one, and I would keep going. Like Wow. There was nothing really that special about Jon Snow. He had integrity. He knew how to lead men, but him in and of itself, I wouldn't wanna sit around and have a drink with. If you're asking me who I wanna sit around and have a drink with, would say Bronn, but that's for another time or even Tyrion,

41:48KT: but that's for another time. But Jon wasn't that interesting. His his story arc wasn't that fascinating to me. I thought it was quite cheap how he got killed, and then he came back to life. Even if I had watched Game of Thrones as it played out, I knew that he wouldn't have died and that was it. He was too integral to the story. And then you had our peeps. What did you call them? The brothers keep?

42:17KT: You know, the man that keeps coming back to life and then the hounds and eyes brotherhood. Yeah. From the brotherhood. And then they were like, oh, you know, you were brought back for a reason. Even that red head lady. What's her name? Melisandre. Melisandre.

42:34KT: Even she's like, oh, you were brought back for a reason. So even in that sense, like, you knew that he was going to come back to life. And, you know, there there was so much set up to him. It wouldn't made sense to kill him and then have to reintroduce a similar type of character. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't really care. Him and Ygritte fighting

42:55KT: on the way. I'm actually surprised that they got married and they met on Game of Thrones, and they got married as a part of their acting. It's just I don't know. They just seemed a bit bothersome. I did I guess I just didn't wanna watch. I do do love some wildling love. I I do love me some Tormund. But, yeah, I just I really didn't care for Jon Snow's character. He was okay. He was competent. Let's just say that.

43:25Oti: Well, the thing with Jon Snow is that you know he's the main character. Like, he's one of the main characters. You Jon Snow nothing.

43:32Oti: And he's not going to be killed off before we even know who the parents were. Like, the we made such It's a big top billing. Yeah. Made such a big deal about who the mother was and who what was happening there. And it was like, now, mate, he's dead. Now, of course, he's going to come back. What the hell? We've seen someone else come back to life. Of course, he's not gonna be left dead. He's unless

43:51KT: like, it it was just so obvious he's not dead. Game of Thrones, people kept saying that Game of Thrones just killed characters, you know, left and right. And I really didn't feel like that was the case. Like, I knew that Jon Snow was never gonna die. Cersei wasn't going to die. Like, you knew people that were big and probably top billing wouldn't die in this story.

44:13Oti: Yeah. You knew characters that would actually die. I agree with you. The second time watching, I'd be like, yeah. You kinda saw

44:19KT: Even if it made sense for them to die, they wouldn't die because they're more important than the story. Because, like, Spartacus, for example, people died. People died in that show. That didn't really happen in Game of Thrones, I don't think.

44:37Oti: Which was kind of all predictable. I wouldn't say that characters die here too often. No. I agree with you. So

44:45KT: So before we close off on House Stark, let's talk about Theon Greyjoy. And because we are trying to capture as much people as possible within this podcast sort of time frame, I don't wanna spend too much time, but I definitely wanna talk about Theon's evolution as a character and Reek.

45:07Oti: Has he has he evolved though? Well, his his basic stance from what we introduced, he's he's a douche at the start. And then at the end of it, he's come to see that he was a douche, and now he's trying to confess or apologize for whatever he did in betraying Robb and trying to kill Bran and Rickon.

45:33Oti: And the fact that I think all that just happened because he got captured and tortured by Ramsay. If that didn't happen, he would still be the douche that he was, and he would still probably be

45:33KT: I really I don't really think he was a douche, though. He was a kid that was taken away from his family.

45:33Oti: He was raised as one the He was raised as one of the Starks anyway.

45:33KT: You can have all the love in the world, but if you developmentally

45:57KT: at a very formative age wasn't given the right amount of love, that could turn you into a problematic sort of person. So, you know, even even up to that point when he had his journey and he betrayed the Starks, and then he got tortured by Ramsay, and he ended up saving Sansa. I actually forgave him. The the part where things came undone is when he fucking jumped off the boat and left his sister. That was That was unforgivable with the uncle. That was unforgivable.

46:27Oti: Well, there was nothing you would do in that that And after everything he's been through, it was understandable that he'd try and run.

46:30KT: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. So that's understandable. But every time the Hound got scared of fire, you kept saying, grow up, man.

46:47Oti: Not just because he'd try to find a way to deal with it, you know? How about Theon then?

46:47KT: Theon has only been exposed to this for what? A few

46:47Oti: Oh, come on now. No. A few years old?

46:47KT: Be serious with yourself. The Hound has lived with this for his entire life.

47:05KT: He got burned as a child by his brother.

47:10Oti: He got burned as a child by his brother. He's such a liability. Any anytime you wanna go to a bottle You're a lie you're a liability. Just light a fire, and you've taken care of the Hound.

47:23KT: Hang on. I'm getting my death note out again. Hi. What are you what are you doing in the next hour? Oh, well, I guess I'll be dialed. I guess you will.

47:34Oti: But, yeah, let's talk about Stannis, House Baratheon.

47:40KT: You don't even wanna talk about Robert?

47:40Oti: Who?

47:40KT: King Robert, married to Cersei at the start of the series. What can you say about Robert? I thought Robert was a solid character. He was really good friends with Eddard Stark, and that's how he first come across the Starks because he goes to meet them. I think Robert was a great king. I think he

47:40Oti: That's a bit of a stretch, but yeah.

47:40KT: You didn't even remember him since two minutes ago, so we'll fight. Don't you worry. I thought him and Ed having their adventures

48:12KT: was quite a tale to tell. And because they are doing prequels, I would be interested if I had to in watching that. You know what I think would be a great invention? If I could just I would even pay for the service of if I don't like a certain character, you can remove them from the series, and then I can just watch all the characters that I wanna watch through the series. If that's the case, then I'm all for it. Someone go and invent that and send us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com

48:40KT: because I would love to be involved in that. But, yeah, King Robert was great. He didn't really indulge Joffrey, if you noticed.

48:51Oti: Yeah. He didn't really even spend time with Joffrey. No. No. But he he didn't indulge him.

48:56KT: So if you're talking about the nature nurture, Cersei was the problem in that equation aside from the years of incest. But Cersei was the problem in that situation. So Robert, I thought, was pretty solid. He also had a kid with Cersei, and I think it was alluded that Cersei did something to make sure she lost that child. Yeah. She killed a kid. Exactly. Yeah. So how do you think Robert will be feeling? There was a very good sobering scene between king Robert and Cersei right before he died. And

49:29KT: they you know, you could literally see there was no love between these two. Yeah. Right? Then marriage of convenience. No. And then Robert made some comment about, you know, I don't even know how, you know, the people come together. And then Cersei, with a rueful smile said, it was our marriage. And that was perfect because they completely understood each other in that moment. So I think you need to give more credit where credit is due in regards to Robert. So let's talk about Stannis Baratheon, the fucking coward.

50:03KT: Yeah. He's he's he's a coward. Demon, baby, to kill his younger brother. What the fuck is that?

50:08Oti: Yeah. He's he's he's not that special. He's relying on Melisandre for pretty much everything. He doesn't know how to lead. He can't make a decision for himself. It's he's either relying on Ser Davos or he's trying to Melisandre. Oh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna say? Woah. How will we win this battle? Even when Ser Davos was saying to Stannis to leave her behind,

50:33KT: and he he he took that counsel, but then when they lost, he blamed.

50:39Oti: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. He can't do that. He's just a shit character thrown through. I didn't really think much of him.

50:46KT: I was happy to see Brienne killing And the fact that Shireen died and and he was there. Yeah.

50:53Oti: And he's the one that's supposed to love Shireen more than the mom. The mom was always like a dick to Shireen but when it came down to it, the mom tried to save Shireen from being burnt at the stake like

51:01KT: Oh, that really got me. That was really sad. And you know what really got me as well? Knowing that they planned that, telling Ser Davos to, like, go away Yeah. And knowing that he would find out because I knew there there was no way he wasn't going to find out about this. That

51:20KT: really, really broke my heart. Yeah. And I think that's enough time. Because I think just one just one more second. The saving grace of Stannis Baratheon when he was doing these questionable things was that he still loved his daughter. Clearly not enough. Well, when he chose sacrifice it, that's when it all came undone for me and I'm like, you can die. Yeah.

51:40Oti: Renly. If we're running out of time.

51:44KT: If we're running out of time, let's just leave it. Yeah. Yeah. But he did introduce by way of him being there. He introduced Brienne of Tarth to us. He did. So in that much, I say Brienne of Tarth loved Renly so much because Renly was there for Brienne when they were younger and Let's talk about Brienne before we run out of time.

52:07Oti: So Brienne of Tarth.

52:09KT: Oh, wow. She is an amazing warrior. Like She's warrior first before she's a woman. She's warrior first, woman second, and that's what I loved. True. Sansa is lady first. True. But Arya is warrior first. Mhmm. Brienne is such a solid character. She had so much character development, and I'm so happy that we got introduced to her as a warrior. I felt like she was a knight, but she kept saying she wasn't. Or maybe by technicality, she wasn't a knight. She wasn't. Yeah. But I really like that we actually got to know her skill

52:53KT: before they made the jokey sort of love triangle between her, Jaime, and Tormund. I like that we we actually got a chance to focus on her. I also like that we saw different qualities of her and her her need to make things right as well. I enjoyed seeing the chemistry between her and Pod. Pod, aside from For Your Reference, I think he's my favorite pod. And aside from wanting to see some Unsullied genitals, I did wanna see Pod's genitals, must say. Oh. With his magical cock.

53:34Oti: Yeah. Do you think it's just a big cock rather than technique?

53:38KT: That was one of the funniest scenes when he came back from the brothel with that coin purse. Yeah. Tyrion and Bronn were like, what the fuck just happened? Did you forget? Did you forget?

53:52Oti: No. It's just yeah. That was a hilarious moment. It's So good.

53:57KT: But I I I enjoyed that running joke that they had in the show. So let's go back to Brienne. Super solid. I also enjoyed the dynamics that she had with Jaime. They went through a lot together. They did. And I'm glad that they still they still held that sort of dynamic even after parting from each other.

54:21Oti: Yeah. They've forged a close bond, and you could tell that there there's more to come between them, especially now that Jaime is left Cersei. So

54:21KT: But it doesn't even have to be a romantic thing

54:21Oti: No. I don't want as well. I feel like it has to be a it will be a romantic thing, not it has to be a romantic thing.

54:21KT: My man, Tormund, has anything to say about it.

54:21Oti: Tormund will probably die before they they even meet Brienne now.

54:42KT: Tormund is one of my reasons for living. He almost died when the walkers also when the walkers had surrounded them in the you know? But didn't you like when they went to go back to recruit the wildlings? And the guy was like, oh, sorry. They can't talk right now, and he bashed their head in. He's like, are you ready to talk now, bitch?

55:03KT: That was funny. Tormund, I I don't know. I've become obsessed with Tormund. I just like looking at him, and I like watching compilations on YouTube of him and Brienne. But really, it's more just him staring at Brienne. Like, when he was eating that big chicken leg, and he was staring at Brienne. Is there anything more romantic or off putting than that? True.

55:24Oti: And I I do I I don't want us to run out of time before talking about the main issue we've had watching this together. Not issue per se. Just when just when we were having fun. Yeah. Let's talk about House Targaryen and especially Daenerys.

55:40KT: No one prefaced, and I'm blaming you specifically, Oti. No one prefaced to me how destructive and how problematic of a character Daenerys Targaryen is to the overall series. It's irresponsible to make someone watch Game of Thrones and not tell me about this terrible person. And let me just explain to you. So I've touched on it. So I've kind of planted the seed minutes ago. Daenerys Targaryen is every example of what's wrong in the world or what's wrong in the world of Game of Thrones. And the reason why I say that is,

56:20KT: okay. Fair enough. You're a baby and no one's looking after you, and you're essentially an orphan. And Jorah, I think, essentially contributed to selling her away. Right? So that's not a great origin story to have. I get that. Even the fact that her brother sold her off to the Dothraki as a political play for him to become king. That wasn't great. And the fact that she, you know, she went through all of this torture with Momoa, Dothraki man. That wasn't great as well.

56:56KT: But more and more through this series, everything just went right for Daenerys all the time, and it was really pissing me off. And the the time when I started to even question your viewership was when she started to I won't even use the word liberate. When she started to let the slaves free. Right? And the reason why I had a problem with that is because she she's essentially what I would call the UN in its worst state. Right? So you come into this foreign land and

57:34KT: you say, you know what? I think I know what's best for you. And then you'll go there. And then once shit goes bad, you run off to another city and do the same fucking thing. That's not right. So what she did was she released the slaves. And then in in some cities, she actually killed the masters to appease them. Because I think in one of the roads, they were showing 63, I think, crucified slaves or whatever the number was. And then to reciprocate that, she killed the same amount of masters and had them crucified

58:10KT: as well. And then as we later find out in the series, some of the slave masters actually were trying to help the slaves. They weren't even guilty, but because they were slave masters to begin with, they were part of the problem. Because we have I don't remember his name, but our man Stylax from Plebs.

58:31Oti: Yeah.

58:32KT: He he was the son of a man that actually helped slaves and actually loved them as well because, you know, they looked after his kids and that sort of thing. And what really bothered me about Daenerys is she really didn't have a good grappling of how the world worked,

58:53KT: and she didn't know what it meant to actually rule a people. If you're in a position of power and you choose to free the slaves, then what you also need to do is introduce a system for them to be able to stand on their own two feet. Because once you get rid of the masters, it's a terrible situation to be in. But once you get rid of the masters, they have nowhere else to live. They have nowhere to eat. So what do you need to do? You need to provide livelihood.

59:19KT: How are you going to give them land if the masters are still there? And these are the problems that I had. Maybe I was getting too real because it is just Game of Thrones, but it just it just showed to me that, you know, even if she was an orphan and she had gone through all of this, she still thinks in the sense of a highborn, and she doesn't understand the ramifications of her ill decisions. And so so much along the way, Jorah Mormont, our best friend, he

59:49KT: advised against a lot of the things she was doing, yet she continued to do it. And she decided to execute that slave master. Slave masters and also the slaves. And she decided to make a public exhibition of that. Why? Why was that? She she did it. And, that's why I'm not saying that you need to go on a bloody path or rampage to know what it means, but at least if you've killed a man before and you've actually committed the orders that you've sent out, you actually understand the gravity of what it means

60:31KT: to make those sort of calls. Yeah. Right? Because if you can just tell someone to do it for you, then it does take away a bit of, you know, where humans are fallible creatures. So, you know, you can compartmentalize that you're not as guilty because you didn't kill that person. Right? But, you know, in a nutshell, I really found it hard to continue watching Game of Thrones on her story arc alone. Yeah. And it it was interesting because we both had different points of view in regards to Daenerys.

61:08KT: We did. And do you wanna share some of yours? So

61:12Oti: I took it as Daenerys being taken down a path of her learning. So she's not gonna get leadership from the get go. And that's why she had Jorah. And later, she had Tyrion, because she needed strong people around her who would actually

61:12KT: She didn't listen to them.

61:12Oti: Well, at least it did give her advice and she did come to learn that she can't just liberate people without having some sort of plan.

61:46KT: And that's why she still did it.

61:49Oti: Well and that's why when she actually went off you know when they were still in the in Meereen after the attack the dragon flew away and Tyrion took over, Tyrion was like she did land like she understands that what she did was a mistake, and she don't there was a need for her to understand that you can't just liberate people without giving them some sort of direction. And she remember when when she was she was confused at the fact that those over 200 people waiting for her waiting to see her yeah

62:23Oti: you know it just shows how naivety in in what a lead what leadership

62:26KT: and how it just shows that any sort of genuine sincere nature she had was fake because she wanted to help these people, but she didn't wanna sit and listen to their problems. One of a really good pivotal moment that points to her lack of character is the witch that she, in her mind, saved. You know what the witch said in her final moments? I was raped twice before you came and saved me. What the fuck do you think you've done for me? And she didn't learn her lesson

62:58KT: even from that moment. And she got captured by the Dothraki again. And the Dothraki, even at that time, they didn't know she was a Khaleesi. Right? But they didn't kill her. Things just worked in her favor, but she didn't give people those graces. She didn't spare people. And even Jorah was telling Daenerys, you know, if if you if if I thought I forgot who was going to lay down the orders. But if they were going to do what you did, I wouldn't be alive today to advise you.

63:32KT: And that's when it becomes a problem. And she was talking about how her people aren't slaves. Right? Mhmm. Even Tyrion, when he came and he was talking to Missandei, he was like, she was, you know, she was trying to defend Daenerys saying, you know, we're not slaves. And Tyrion's like, but if you wanted to go back to Naath Yeah. Naath. If you wanted to go back to Naath, could you go? And she's like, oh, if yeah, she would. And he's like, if you want to leave right now, would she let you?

64:01KT: Right? And that's what became really problematic to me because she kept saying she was a catalyst for these people, but she took over the pyramid, which was the highest point of establishment in that city, trying to act like she was part of the people. Right? And you might not you might not call them slaves, but if you're living in a big ass pyramid like that, you're going to have people that need to tend to the residents, that need to draw your baths that need to cook your dinner. They might not call themselves slaves,

64:31KT: but you're not addressing the underlying issues, right? You're not addressing the foundational problem of the the system because she's still living in a way that that still relies on slaves in order for her to have the lifestyle that she has. And that's the problem that I had with Daenerys. And it even got to the point where it almost made us stop watching Game of Thrones together because, I guess, you couldn't really see where I was coming from

65:07KT: in regards to how I was receiving her character. And I really I really don't understand. Like, yeah, you know, people wanna talk about dragons. She's the mother of dragons, but I don't think anyone's really acknowledged, you know, the problematic and you can't even call her naivety because she she knew better than that. Right? And I didn't like how, you know, she would use her dragons and that pretty much became

65:32KT: her shield. Right? So she could say whatever the fuck she wanted to say or she could attack whatever she wanted to and people couldn't do anything because she had a dragon. I just I I really didn't care for that because that's not true strength.

65:47Oti: True. But that's what Tyrion tried to make us stop doing, you know, stop her from using the dragon so much because what will differentiate her from the Mad King who pretty much ruled from by fear. I have this massive three ass dragons and I will terrorize you until you bend to my will. And that's what Tyrion's like, we need to march in there with, you know, Westerosi and do it from our own. You can't use Unsullied, you can use Dothraki, you know. So

66:24Oti: Tyrion understood to some degree you can't rely on your dragons for everything. You have to show to strength, have to show leadership for people to actually follow you willingly,

66:36KT: for people to actually love you. But it just it just tickles me because in all of these years that Game of Thrones has been going on, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say what I'm saying. And the fact that you don't even resonate with anything that I'm saying in regards to Daenerys, it just makes me wonder, are people actually watching this show past surface level? Or you're just like, oh, cool. Dragon. Fire. Yeah, man. Like no. But really, it it really

67:07KT: it really stuck with me, and it really bothered me that her character was like that. And she continued to go on like that because she wasn't even like a mad queen. She was she was selfish, and she was indulgent, and she thought she she she thought she was doing well, but even when she was told she wasn't doing well, she didn't wanna listen and then she got she deflected even when she knew she was being wrong. But let's let's leave that for now.

67:37KT: If you guys are interested in hearing more of my thoughts and you want a deeper dive into Daenerys, I am so happy we're doing this episode because I never really wanna talk about her again. But even when I just realized we have another season to get through. But I I really have I have qualms.

67:56Oti: Oh, your qualms. Hopefully, your qualms are settled by the end of season eight.

67:57KT: And the fact that her and Jon Snow got together, I'm like, that's not natural in any world. This is literally trying to bring all of the characters together and trying to mishmash everyone together. That made no sense at all. But let let's let's leave that.

68:15KT: So let's just capture off. It it is a whole immersive world, but I just want to capture off on any sort of lasting moments that you had or any characters that we didn't bring up that you want to bring up.

68:28Oti: So I'll talk about Sam.

68:31KT: Oh. Yeah. Oh, my. Sam Tarly,

68:34Oti: who's been who's been seen as the archers of the family, sort of weird one, the father didn't really appreciate what Sam brings to the table. Yeah. And I feel like when Daenerys ordered for the father and brother to be killed, was like, oh, that's sad. But knowing that how they treated Sam, I don't know. Was conflicted. But Sam is a solid character. Sam is knowledgeable, and we knew that Sam would play a big role in this show. Uh-huh. The minute he was introduced as being useless, like, he didn't he didn't know how to fight.

69:09Oti: Yeah. He didn't know how to cook. Yeah. He's just, you know, he was afraid of heights.

69:16KT: He wasn't good for much. Yeah. Was a liability for most of it. Yeah. Yeah. And and

69:22Oti: with such a character, you definitely know that they'll just just add it as a as a as a as a whim of, you know, on a whim. So he's a good character, solid character, who brings knowledge back to the people that need it in Jon Snow, telling them where to find dragonglass. Yeah. He knows his researching on how to the best way to defeat to defeat the night walkers Yep. The dead walkers.

69:22KT: The White Walkers?

69:22Oti: The White Walkers.

69:49KT: You've been watching some off brand Game of Thrones. Yeah. Clearly.

69:55Oti: And he's also he's the he also treated Jorah from

70:00KT: Yes, he did. Yeah.

70:02Oti: The fact that we have a lot of people who are stuck in their old ways in the maesters who really didn't want to do anything outside that would ruffle, you know, they'll shake things up a bit or ruffle feathers like he went out, he took it upon himself to try and do new things, even trying to

70:19KT: Even when he was trying to place some more importance on Bran's note

70:26Oti: they were literally in academia and they weren't thinking about in real life they were just talking about books yeah and for me I just can't wait for something to happen to them like I was just waiting for the White Walkers to come up and kill them all like pretty useless. And they speak to a generation of people in society at the moment who have the power who have the knowledge, and they just sitting on their laurels doing shit all.

70:50KT: Like Daenerys. I wanna give a shout out to Fat Pie. Is that his name? Mudpie?

70:58Oti: Oh my. It's Mudpie.

71:01KT: It's not. It's Hot Pie. Hot Pie. Sorry. Sorry, Hot Pie. I didn't say Fat Pie. That was Daenerys.

71:11Oti: Oh, he'll probably bake you a dowel cake.

71:16KT: But yeah. And I also just wanted to quickly touch on Varys. Varys was one of the best characters and he the thing I admired about Varys is he he didn't have a great life. Right? But he accepted the cards that he was dealt. Mhmm. And he used them to the best of his ability. And he was quite malleable, which I guess some people won't like because he can change with the wind. But I appreciated that self interest fueled him,

71:50KT: and he was efficient in what he did. Mhmm. So I I would be remiss if I didn't mention him in this episode. But just in closing, I do just wanna mention that I did watch Game of Thrones. I didn't necessarily I have a very addictive sort of personality. So when I watch something, I usually latch onto it, and I really didn't feel that with Game of Thrones. The best way I can describe Game of Thrones is it's the gateway show for people that don't usually watch these fantasy type of shows.

72:23KT: And I think that's the best way to describe it because the intensity is not at the level of other shows. The character development is not at the level of the other shows. And I think having the say of the seven kingdoms and trying to set the story, it became a bit arduous, and it became a bit bloated because you needed to set the scene for so many kingdoms. But that's my closing thoughts. Do you have any?

72:48Oti: No. I enjoyed it watching it a second time. I thought it's a well written show with a little bit of plot holes in there. But generally, a great entertaining show that anyone with a little bit of imagination could try and put the stories in together and see how it all works in and try and compete against yourself or, you know, and just see how how many things you'd get right in trying to predict

73:18Oti: people's storylines and see how, you know, it's it's exciting to me and I had a fun time watching it a second time. And I'd probably continue reading the books after the last season.

73:31KT: Well, I will decline that invite for future perpetuity. So as per the name of our podcast, this is the For Your Reference segment. So Oti.

73:45Oti: I would recommend that you watch Spartacus.

73:50KT: Yes, please.

73:51Oti: Just because it's it gives a different tone to this sort of genre and not fantasy per se, but ancient times and it's full of action. It's full of, the storytelling is great and the camaraderie and the banter is quite at the highest level that you'd be able to see in any show. So it's, it's just a solid well put show and shout out to Andy Whitfield who died after the first, probably during the second season or when they were waiting for him to recover, and it was quite sad. And after that, I was hooked

74:26Oti: on just finishing it off for him even though it dipped a bit, but the first season was one of the best shows we've watched, and his performance was amazing. Certainly.

74:36KT: Certainly. Definitely give Spartacus a go. I've got two for your reference. Obviously, I do swing towards a Viking sort of tangent. So I would recommend if you haven't watched Vikings on the History Channel, you should give it a go. It's great. It does have a lot of arcs, but as we all know, as quoted by Oti, all roads lead to Kattegat. So it is more of a cohesive story, and you get to know more about Ragnar and his sons and also his legacy.

75:16KT: So that's the first one I would recommend. The second series that I would recommend that you watch is the Korean drama on Netflix called Kingdom. Nice. Yeah. You didn't think I would take that there, did you? Mm-mm. So we're talking about battling for the throne and you also have supernatural elements of zombies, essentially. So definitely give Spartacus, Vikings and also Kingdom a go. Before we do finish, we didn't really talk about theories

75:48KT: of the last season. I know we're running out of time. I'm just gonna say it in thirty seconds who I think is going to take the crown. Mhmm. Who I think and who will take the crown. Tyrion motherfucking Lannister because someone that doesn't feel greed for power is who should be in the throne. So I will say Tyrion.

75:48Oti: I think it'll be Jon Snow because

76:12Oti: it's trashfully he is.

76:14KT: While Daenerys is holding his balls. Yep. Yes. So there we go, guys. We've made it through. Hopefully, you've made it through as well. If you're die hard Game of Thrones fans, hopefully, we can still be friends after this. On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. Also check out our site

76:33Oti: and you can email us at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

76:41KT: Winter has come, guys.

76:43Oti: Goodbye. See you.