Spirited Away – Haku you leave me

Full transcript of Spirited Away – Haku you leave me.

0:00KT: Friends and lovers. This is the For Your Reference podcast. We've got a nice little tasting note, a little menu, if you will, before the main part of the episode. February is a very exciting month, Oti.

0:00Oti: Oh, yes. It is.

0:00KT: This is actually when we started. So we have now hit and about to hit one year of the For Your Reference podcast. Woo hoo. Woo hoo hoo. And if you follow us on the socials, you know Oti and I love a wankery degustation, don't So to celebrate our one year in podcasting,

0:38KT: we are going to have a whole month of Miyazaki masterpieces or as much as all of us can handle. And we have rightfully called it a Reference Degustation. Mhmm. So it's a very exciting time. This is also an opportunity not so much for Netflix US, but Netflix or everywhere else around the world have the opportunity now to watch Miyazaki or Studio Ghibli films more easily, which is very exciting. So, you know, it's tantalizing. We are starting off with a nice

1:12KT: sort of film that most people have watched before just to get your palate ready Mhmm. For the sensational degustation we're about to have in the For Your Reference household. We love you guys so much, and hopefully, you enjoy the show. Friends and lovers. It's your host, KT.

1:12Oti: And Oti.

1:12KT: And this is the For Your Reference podcast, our Reference Degustation. A year of podcasting. We said we were going to do Miyazaki, and we are doing it in the biggest way possible.

1:12Oti: Oh, yes. We are.

2:12KT: Hold on to your gold and stay away from those frog legs because we are covering the film, Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi.

2:22Oti: In other words, Spirited Away.

2:26KT: Wow. You just spirited my breath away. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. This is the first time you've listened to our podcast, what an exciting time to be in. We won't even charge you the premium degustation, you can boast in all of it. Even all the ones that were sacrificing in the banquet hall of the For Your Reference household. I also wanna give a shout out to our most loving friend, Em from Verbal Diorama. Her birthday is also in February for her podcast, and she is also covering Miyazaki films.

3:05KT: Oh. Yes. And she's definitely covering Spirited Away. So quick little what what shout out. Genuinely did not plan this, but we love you, Em, so much, and she definitely goes into so much detail. You know, just like we said with a degustation, there are different offerings in the Verbal Diorama For Your Reference household. So consume it all, friends and lovers. Mhmm. Consume it all. So let's get into the stats. Spirited Away was originally released in Japan in July 2001. The estimated budget for this film was $19,000,000. Quite

3:45KT: an achievement. Mhmm. For the for the visual, for everything, all of the tantalizing details that we get in this film, 19,000,000 is amazing. And the worldwide gross was $347,700,000.

4:01Oti: Woah.

4:03KT: Yeah. Usually, when you have successful films, you know, obviously, there's anticipation. Hello, Jordan Peele, unfortunately, didn't really deliver. But, you know, when you have people that come out with works, do have expectations. And Miyazaki is a household name around the world. Mhmm. A lot of that is also attributed to Spirited Away, but let's not also forget Princess Mononoke, which is also on our menu as well. Yeah. Speaking of Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away won a whole bag

4:37KT: of awards deservedly so. Mhmm. Should have been given awards that it wasn't even nominated in in my personal opinion. It won the it was the first Japanese film to one win the Oscar for the best animated feature. Come on. Get in the bag. Yeah. Right? What else can we throw in the bag? There's the Japanese Academy Awards. Mhmm. Only two animated films have won in that category, and that was Princess Mononoke and also Spirited Away. Yep. So, you know, they are the darlings. And we are quite early in the episode,

5:11KT: and we are early in the degustation menu. It is a fun, tantalizing fanfare, but I do just wanna say from the onset, I'm not gonna say it in every episode, but don't fucking refer to Miyazaki as the Japanese Walt Disney. Don't fucking do it. It pisses me the fuck off. Hi, friends and lovers. You should have noticed the explicit tag. You know, you you thought you were safe with an animated film, but, no, KT gets fired up. So just don't don't call him the don't call it the Japanese Disney.

5:46KT: Don't do it. You know, Disney is great and, you know, we have lovely, you know, fond memories. Check out our Lion King episode. But it's everyone has their own entity and let's not make it easier for people to understand it even though in many cases it's, you know, simplifying it. Yeah. Yeah.

6:08Oti: I'd say Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli are so much more nuanced than Disney are.

6:14KT: Well, no. Disney gave us some of did give us a lot of stuff. I'm not I'm not saying And Disney is known to have borrowed. Hello, Kimba. Hashtag never forget. But, you know, I I guess I just wanted to point that out because we are starting off the series and you can enjoy both. Just don't call it the same thing. Yeah. To each their own. And they are their own. That's a For Your Reference phrase or mine. So let's let's just capture off the actors.

6:47KT: We in the For Your Reference household subs all the way. Oh. Yeah. And as we are on a degustation menu, that is the serving suggestion that you do watch it in the Japanese subtitles. But if you do watch English subs, we are not covering the actors. Yep. So just as a note. Playing Chihiro, we have in the Japanese, you know, last name, first name. We have Hiiragi Rumi and then playing Haku, we have Irino Miyu. Mhmm. We also have a whole slew of other characters, but we just have two noted as the main.

7:23KT: Forgive me. Pardon me. Director, writer, storyboard, Hayao Miyazaki. Also, we have Joe Hisaishi composing all of the score throughout the film. You'll start to see as we cover a lot more of Miyazaki's films, they are like the dynamic duo. Mhmm. They really bring their kahonas every single time. I think there was just one film that Hisaishi didn't work on in regards to Miyazaki's films, but pretty much everything and everything is gold. Yeah. Gold gold gold. And I can't recall a quiet moment

7:59KT: in this film. There there there were sombering moments, but I always felt like the music was there. Oh, yeah. Throughout the whole movie, the the music was there and it just depicted

8:10KT: different emotions that we're seeing on screen, which is such a testament to the orchestra that was performing this. Oh, certainly. And I think it it it starts to at least for me, it gives me more of an appreciation of the behind the scenes of what makes a film. You know, before it just used to be about the actors, and then now it's the directors, and then now it's starting to understand what forms a film. Yeah. Yeah. And he he definitely has, you know, quite quite a distinct voice. And that's quite exciting because

8:43KT: we have you know, Hayao Miyazaki has quite a lot of, you know, tangible themes that he interweaves in a lot of his films. And when we cover all of these films, we will go through that. So it'll be quite interesting to see, you know, how much Spirited Away is, you know, essentially similar to his other films in regards to themes. Yeah. Something interesting in regards to this film, Chihiro is based on one of his friend's daughter. They went on a trip away, and she he noticed how the daughter was just really sullen

9:20KT: and really despondent and didn't really care for much. So that inspired him to create this film. She was also the same daughter that inspired him to continue because as we mentioned in an upcoming Porco Rosso episode, Hayao Miyazaki is known for quitting a lot. And he was going to quit after Princess Mononoke or he officially quit after Princess Mononoke and then he came back to make this film about that little girl. Yeah. And I'm glad he doesn't quit. You know?

9:52Oti: What he does is just so magical. And the fact that I didn't even get into this world until I've bloody met you, biggest regret.

10:03KT: Well, if if there's anything you can take from the experience with me, I'm glad that's what it is. So, you know, this film is amazing and it's great. And, obviously, we're going to get into details for that, but it's amazing. You know, like, I hazard to find a world where people haven't watched this film. But aside from Oti, I don't film shame, in the For Your Reference household. So you are safe with me, but this is your time to go and watch the film and come back. Originally,

10:35KT: the film was going to be three hours in duration. Mhmm. And that was one of the hardest parts for Miyazaki to be able to cut that down to two hours. Oh. Yeah. And I think that's that's quite you know, no shade to Scorsese for The Irishman. Because because he because Scorsese also said that he found it hard to cut it, so I guess he didn't. Yeah. I saw a few places where he could have cut.

11:05KT: But, you know, that's no shade. That's just interesting, I guess, to see how how much a visual masterpiece it is, and you wonder how much more it will be. I'm one of those people where pacing is very important for me. And if you've got extra content, I will watch it. You know, I spend hours watching interviews after we watch stuff. Like, that's not a problem. But as a whole entity, think the duration is quite important.

11:30Oti: Oh, for sure.

11:33KT: So another interesting thing before we dive into the actual film, Miyazaki is known for not having a fully solid idea of the story before they actually start. So he'll be storyboarding when production starts. Oh. Yeah. So which is I I guess it's a scary sort of world. And I guess in another lifetime, if it was someone else, I would say that's very wankery, and you should have a story before you start something.

12:03KT: And he also says that he doesn't make the film. The film makes itself. Again, I would say to other people, that's a very wankery thing to do. But having witnessed, having consumed, having immersed myself in the world of Miyazaki, you can do whatever the fuck you want because it works. It really does. And, you know, just going back to about him retiring, I think that says a lot because as a creative, you know, he puts everything in it. There's nothing more that he can do, so that's it. Right? And then he finds more strength or he finds another reason to keep going. Yeah. So I think that's that's quite endearing as well.

12:34Oti: Yeah. It does. It goes to show you the psycho human nature, you know. It's it's it's ever evolving. It's ever changing and dynamic, you know. Like you said, has thought of quitting until he met this girl and makes it sift through into his work because everything in in that has a story and has a meaning that you can pretty much overlay into current society.

13:05KT: Exactly. And I guess the last thing I wanna say in regards to, like, fun facts because we're going to immerse ourselves in the story. When Spirited Away and Miyazaki was nominated for best animated feature, he actually didn't attend. And there wasn't really a explicit reason until 2009 when he revealed that he didn't agree with the stance of Iraq, well, the war in Iraq. Mhmm. So that's why he didn't attend. But he was told not to say anything.

13:35Oti: Oh.

13:35KT: Yes. So there you go, you guys. There's your element of war in there, which is what we're going to come into. Again, thank you for joining us. Miyazaki does have quite a lot of prominent themes that he has through his filmography, you know, even from Nausicaa all the way to Spirited Away most recently. And in these films, we are going to have a nice little tasting of these themes and whether they do get explored and how deeply in Spirited Away. Are you ready, Oti?

13:35Oti: Oh, ready as it will be.

14:12KT: So the first one is that Miyazaki's father made parts for planes. So he has quite a fascination for them. Mhmm. And just flying in general. Yeah. Do you feel that was captured in Spirited Away?

14:12Oti: Oh, yeah. Yubaba flying and a wooden face.

14:12KT: Damn, dog. That's just called that's just called getting old. That's just called getting old. Yeah. No. I I don't think we really got to cap it was more of like a fantastical spiritual thing as opposed to planes, but we did see flying. So I guess that's, you know, half a tick where it matters.

14:48KT: Another theme that he has that's quite common in his films is messages about anti war. Yeah. I don't necessarily think that was covered in Spirited Away, But, know, Hayao Miyazaki, the target audience for this film were 10 year old girls. Yep. So it makes sense that you don't really have messages about anti war in there. But there's definitely a lot of others, Princess Mononoke, Porco Rosso, even Nausicaa to an extent as well. The next theme that is quite prominent in his films is caring about the environment

15:26KT: and the impact that humans have on the environment. Do you feel like that was covered in this film?

15:35Oti: Oh, heaps. Heaps, heaps, heaps, heaps, heaps. We have a lot of examples like Haku. Mhmm. Who's a spirit of Kohaku River. Yep. Which is apparently Kohaku River doesn't exist anymore because they built apartments on it or something like that. That was deep. I felt that. Which is deep. But it just goes to show you the kind of ever evolving sort of world we're living and the fact that the spirit continues living when the river no longer does tells you a lot. And most

16:06Oti: the one that's clear cut with environmental issues is the spirit of the river. Yeah. That was pretty much just sludge and it was like a smelly big monster until it was cleaned and washed and it just came back to life.

16:25KT: And I think and and that's why I love the art of filmmaking because, you know, as much as I'm a straight shooter, pow pow, sometimes there are more beautiful ways than direct ways to explain something. And that really points to the examples that you just gave in in a very beautiful way because those are some really serious issues and we can go into further detail when we talk about the film, but I do just wanna touch on it just for a moment. In regards to Haku,

16:53KT: it is the saddest thing because they mentioned that he wound up there the same way Chihiro did just out of nowhere and he didn't remember where his home was. Yeah. And at that point, I guess you could theorize that perhaps he was a human, but then we also saw he was a dragon. But you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't clear cut that he was a river spirit. And the fact that he couldn't find his home, like you said, because they built it on top of it, That that's sad. Yeah. And

17:22KT: and it's not to say that we all need to, you know, live in the bush and hug all the trees I would. But there is and we do. Oti being my tree. Uh-huh.

17:34Oti: And the bush being, hey. Hey. Me.

17:36KT: That's the real story of Adam and Eve, both KT and Oti. But it is it's a real and it's a hard thing. And again, I'm not talking about Oti. In regards to the way they tackled Haku's story because, you know, with urbanization, you have deforestation and, you know, natural resources just not existing anymore. So I thought that was quite a beautiful way of doing it and just spending a little bit of time talking about the river spirit. Initially it came in as a stink spirit, I think they called it

18:13KT: Or however you say it in Japanese. And then he turned out to be the river spirit, but it took Chihiro to be able to bring that out Yeah. And to clean him up and make him all well. This was taken from an experience of Miyazaki. Apparently, he did clean his own river when he was younger and they did find a bicycle and they needed to get like 10 people to pull it out. Wow. Right? So that's quite nice. That that was It is quite nice. Yeah. And

18:41KT: I I guess that's a good point to mention because to Western audiences, it might come off a bit stark and very tree huggery to see, you know, this this oneness with nature. But I think it's just, you know, your frame of reference. We talk about frame of reference all the time. I guess I just wanted to note quickly, you know, the indigenous sort of religion in Japan is known as Shinto. And come and correct me, especially if you have a Japanese religion podcast. But it talks about a oneness with nature.

19:20KT: And you have what's called kami which loosely translates to like deity or god. And they kind of exist within and also in, you know, nature. Whether it's trees, whether it's rivers and that sort of thing. So it's a very different sort of relationship with nature as opposed to this tree can give me wood, know, these rocks can help me build a house. I don't know how to build houses. We don't know what our foundations are made of, right Oti?

19:53Oti: No, have a strong one though.

19:55KT: But it's a different way of approaching nature as opposed to Western where it's science and technology. What can I use this for my own personal gain? And that's not necessarily the relationship. And not to not to say that it's just because it's like Shinto, but you can see that, you know, Miyazaki's relationship with nature is more geared towards that as opposed to our Western understanding Yeah. Of nature. So I thought I thought that was quite interesting and I guess that's, you know, four chef kisses to that theme, Oti.

19:55Oti: Oh, for sure.

20:32KT: Okay. So the next theme that we have Oti is Miyazaki uses strong female lead slash kids. Yeah.

20:44Oti: Our protagonist Chihiro Sen is is exactly that.

20:49KT: And I guess while we're on that, just another fun fact. Miyazaki read a lot of manga and magazines geared towards 10 year old girls at the time. I think some of them were shown in magazines as well. And he found none of them useful because they were all about getting the guy and it was, you know, like really girly sort of stuff. And it really didn't talk to anything else in regards to what a child might experience. So what he wanted to do with this film is give 10 year old girls a heroine

21:25KT: and allow children or the viewer to decide who they really want to be.

21:35Oti: Yeah. Agreed. We've watched a lot of anime and read some manga. And it is sort of, oh, girls feeling like, you know, falling or chasing boys every time. At least he has a clear picture of what he wants to portray and a strong protagonist is exactly that because Sen goes in a child and at the end comes out an adult.

21:35KT: She was still clinging to her mother.

21:56Oti: But I I think that was more I think it's more nuanced than that, but I feel like she did grow a hell lot more than

21:56KT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. She she was childish, but she was a child. So you can't really fault that.

21:56Oti: No. No. You can't. Yeah.

22:12KT: Obviously, we we can talk more about Chihiro as a character, but that's a definite tick off the Miyazaki theme list that we have. The next one that we have is Miyazaki is very good at portraying people with multiple dimensions. It's not you you don't just have, like, a snickering person twirling their mustache in the corner. You know what I mean? You know, characters that appear evil sometimes have good elements to them or sometimes they they can become good to a certain extent. And sometimes good people are conflicted as well. Do you feel like that was explored in this film?

22:47Oti: Yeah. I think that's met with Yubaba's sister Zeniba?

22:47KT: Yep.

22:47Oti: Where at first she appears evil. Mhmm. And it's not until Chihiro goes to her that she finds out she's actually quite caring and loving. Yeah.

23:06KT: And I think it's it's it's just initially how we come to find them or what our frame of reference is in regards to who the protagonist is in the story, which is exactly that example. But you also have Kaonashi who is the No-Face. Yeah. And I definitely wanna have a more meatier discussion in regards to that. But, know, there are varying degrees of evil and good in Kaonashi. Right? So that's definitely a tick. Yeah. Right? Everything that appears scary sometimes isn't once you understand it. So that's a big tick. Hayao Miyazaki really has a very cute affinity for piggies.

23:49KT: He's even known to depict and draw himself as a pig.

23:49Oti: Oh, I'd like to see that.

23:49KT: So how do do you reckon do you reckon that gets a pass on this film?

24:03Oti: Oh, we got pigs for days. Yeah. Pretty much. Chihiro's parents were turned into pigs.

24:06KT: Because they they ate the food of the spirit. Yeah. Symbolizing gluttony

24:09Oti: and and, you know, it's it's sort of a running theme in this as well. Oh, yes. And yeah. It's I would say it's definitely tick tick tick. They they weren't as cute as our Marco. It wasn't cute as Marco.

24:23KT: But it's a it's a nice pairing to have. Right? Spirited Away and Porco Rosso. I feel like I can only say it that way. I could say it properly. I did say it properly. It's Italian, dude. Read a subtitle. And the last theme that we have in regards to Miyazaki is whimsical slash fantasy.

24:46Oti: This has to be the most whimsical of them all. Yeah. I would say Spirited Away just takes us completely into a different world and Literally. Yeah. And and And we are spirited away into the other world. Yeah. So we have whimsical definitely in this.

25:03KT: All done. We can pack up now. Yeah. Done. Well, those are the themes that we have for all of the films that we are covering. So it'll be quite nice to continue to build off on that as we cover more films. Okay. So I guess let's just quickly touch on our first impressions as this is the first Reference Degustation Miyazaki menu we are doing. How did you come across? And I keep saying Miyazaki because Studio Ghibli has a lot of other films, but really my foundational knowledge

25:37KT: is in the school of Miyazaki. Yep. So would you like to just give us a quick capture of?

25:45Oti: I just got into Australia in 2015. Yeah. And and this was one of the first movies we played. And I remember loving it, but not as much as rewatching it a few years later because we've watched this what? Four or five times together now?

25:45KT: I've watched it many more times, but yes.

25:45Oti: You don't need to humble brag, well nothing about that was humble. Right. But I just love it. It's completely different. Think in the English one they try and

26:11KT: Well, I think what you're talking about is in the English dub, they would add extra lines in just to inform the American or Western viewer. For example, that what they were looking at was a bathhouse or the fact that Haku was a dragon or they also have two last lines that aren't in the Japanese version alluding to the fact that Chihiro was aware of everything that happened was just completely wrong. I just wanna give credit to John Lasseter.

26:41KT: He is the chief creative officer for Disney and also Pixar. He actually became really good friends with Miyazaki by showing him this really weird clip about a lamp and a really early sort of animation. And that kind of made Miyazaki a fan because he's famously known for not wanting to use, you know, computer. It's all hand drawn sort of animations. Right? So he was given the responsibility, very high, very scary responsibility of translating it for American audiences. Dubbing

27:24KT: is a whole controversial topic just for animes in general with Funimation and all that sort of thing. So, there are some reasons why it's not direct translation but then there are some reasons why it should have been, Right? But I guess it's it's not an easy thing to do. Miyazaki was famed to have sent a sword to the studios just with a note saying no cuts. So it's cute, but it's also a cute threat. And I just wanted to make sure we put that in our Reference Degustation just to start off with.

27:59KT: So let's let's get into the film. We start with the opening sequence. So, you know, Chihiro is at an odds. The reason why is because they're moving houses. She's really cradling this bouquet of flowers that she's got. She's would you call her bratty? No. She was spoiled. I don't think she was bratty though. But, you know, you you see them and then they stop off,

28:25KT: they find their way up a hill. Mhmm. And I guess I guess what I wanted to have a little discussion on is, you know, this is very whimsical and we've talked about the fantastical sort of elements that are woven throughout this film. Where do you think that fantasy starts to happen?

28:44Oti: As soon as they cross the bridge.

28:46KT: I would say that it's it's as soon as they go up the hill. Because when they when they about to go up the hill leaning against a tree is a gate and I think it's pronounced torii. And in the Shinto religion, it's essentially supposed to represent that you were entering the sacred realm. So they didn't actually go through the gate, but I think it was a nice little nod there. And they also had the house for the guardian spirits as well. So I'm thinking maybe it happened a little bit earlier.

29:21KT: But I think it's quite interesting because you have little nuggets, like, along the way. And then you get out of and the reason why they stopped in the car abruptly is because they had a road statue. Right? And that's supposed to mark the boundaries between the human and the spirit world. Yeah. So it could have started there as well. And then you also have them going through the tunnel, like you said, back to where the bridge is.

29:47KT: The dad makes a comment that it was it was popping up all over. People were making amusement parks back then. This one just might have been abandoned. And I really appreciated the imagery in this film. There's not a lot of verbal exposition that happens. A lot of that is carried through the music and also the animation Because as you see throughout the film,

30:12KT: it is quite desolate as soon as they get there. Yeah. And that is the world at present day. Mhmm. They walk over what used to be a river and it's just all of these rocks. Mhmm. And then throughout the course of the film, you see that fills up with a River. Mhmm. Right? So I really appreciated those sorts of moments. You know, they walk through, they see all of the restaurants. It's pretty rundown. And, you know, out of nowhere, there's like a banquet of food. Mhmm.

30:41Oti: Who would trust that? I have no idea. I don't know anyone in my life who would intentionally go find random food somewhere and just start going at it regardless of whether you think you're gonna pay for it or not. That's just something you don't do.

30:58KT: Yeah. It was it was like really I was expecting like a Looney Tunes esque sorta dynamite situation. It's like who in their right mind just expects that that's okay out of nowhere? And the people that cooked it aren't even there? Yeah. That is so still hot? Yeah.

31:15Oti: That was especially when the whole town you see no one, and then you just feel comfortable to I don't know. That's mind level I don't know if I'll ever reach.

31:27KT: But, you know, a lot of Miyazaki's films, he has a way of drawing food that just looks fucking delicious. So my fat ass probably would have been eating that food if we're being truly honest with ourselves. Okay. So let's spend some time actually focusing on Chihiro. In regards to her as a child, again, she's a child. You can't really reprimand her for her childish sort of behavior. But what we start to see

32:02KT: is her character development and her growing as a person, you know, fighting her fears and really coming into her own by the end of the film. Mhmm. Even though she's still clinging to her mother's arm. It doesn't undo all of the lessons that she learned along the way. In regards to when she actually goes to the bathhouse and she signs the contract with Yubaba, there's a moment where Yubaba actually renames her from Chihiro to Sen. Mhmm. So this is actually a fun little play on words in the Japanese language because chi

32:45KT: is 1,000 and sen is also 1,000. So Chihiro loosely translates to a thousand questions, a thousand quandaries. And then you also have sen which is a thousand. So, you know, symbolically it's still a thousand but you've removed her ability to question anything.

33:07Oti: Interesting. Oh, yeah. That's really deep. Yeah.

33:11KT: Because even just the fact of taking someone's name, taking someone's identity to have that on another level, I think it was quite masterful.

33:23Oti: It really was quite masterful.

33:26KT: But we see a lot of her struggles. Miyazaki made it clear that he wanted to make sure that anything that Chihiro did physically, mostly, was something that a 10 year old girl was able to do. Mhmm. And to be able to mimic that sort of behavior as well. Mhmm. That's

33:47Oti: really detailed.

33:48KT: Yeah. And I think I don't I don't think she was, like, smart, but I also don't think that she was dumb either.

34:00Oti: No. She wasn't dumb. We see her sort of navigate these interesting scenarios quite well. Something that a 10 year old, I think, most 10 year olds would be afraid of. She's without her parents, so, of course, being dumb is out of the question. She can hold her own. She's forced to grow up quickly, which she does.

34:23KT: And I think that's part of it. She she wouldn't have grown as a child if she wasn't forced to do it. She was definitely capable, but she never really had a reason to have to interject herself into her own life actively. Yeah. And I guess what became the catalyst was trying to bring her parents back. That was initially what it was. Right? And then it became, you know, trying to help out Haku, help out the bathhouse, going to Zeniba. It was really quite a quite a nice adventure to join along the way.

34:57Oti: Yeah. It really was. Like, picture yourself. Your parents have turned into pigs. Yeah. That would actually I think I'll just I'll be mind fuck there and just be a potato throughout the whole movie.

35:09KT: So a pig plus a pig equals a potato?

35:12Oti: Yep. Alright. Good maths, mate. That's a tasty potato. But yeah. Because she does all these things. It and I think Haku helps her a lot. Oh, yes. Yeah. I don't even think she'd be able to survive without that, but she goes, finds work, is really persistent. She's hardworking.

35:30Oti: You can see she cares about people. She's not greedy, which is kind of a contrast with the people in the bathhouse because Oh, yes. When No-Face was giving people gold, they were all taking it without even second thought. But Sen didn't need it. Chihiro didn't need it at all. She had very good qualities, and her good qualities were very strong. Yeah.

35:50KT: And I think what was quite nice about this film was, yes, it was about her growth, but it also showed that she needed help along the way. And sometimes that's a nice lesson that we even need to learn. And we see that through, like you mentioned, with Kamaji, which I definitely wanna spend some time talking about Kamaji because he's fun. And also through Lin and Zeniba and definitely Haku, you know, it it took people to care enough about her to get where she needed to be. To make her care even for Haku. Yeah. Right?

36:26KT: So it was really nice. I really enjoyed being in the moment with Chihiro through everything that she had to go through. And also shout out to Bo, the big baby.

36:38Oti: He gets some character development in this as well. Yes. Character development for everyone to boot. Free candy just dropping.

36:45KT: If a big old baby that has like five minutes of cumulative time on the screen has more character development in the protagonist of a film you're writing then you need to stop. Just stop. But yeah, it just it has a richness to it. Right? There's no waste aside from the gluttony that you see on screen. Everything is so perfectly presented on the screen and for us to consume. Yeah. Right? And I really appreciated that. I thought that was quite nice.

37:22KT: And I think we're going to continue to talk about Chihiro as we cover other characters as well. We did speak about Haku and I do wanna leave him probably to the end because we have spoken about him and he will come up in others as well. You wanna go to Yubaba?

37:22Oti: Yep.

37:22KT: Let's do Yubaba. And Zeniba at the same time? Mhmm. I there's no reason why I guess the Jordan Peele fan in me is believing that Yubaba and Zeniba were one person and they split themselves.

37:55Oti: Zeniba is tethered to a is a is tethered?

37:59KT: Yes. Only because of the way it was worded in the subtitles. Because she was saying that they were two of the same one. Unless it was just the way the subtitles were worded, I kinda feel like they were in their own sort of egg.

38:19Oti: Maybe so. Maybe. Zeniba is just Yubaba's better half. Literally better half.

38:28KT: Nice. We love a literal Oti in the For Your Reference household. You're welcome. Yubaba was quite an interesting character. I don't necessarily think she was evil. I think she was just a boss of a bathhouse and she wanted maximum profit.

38:44Oti: Yeah. But she is greedy. She is really greedy. Oh, Like she the rest of the people walking there. She's quite manipulative as well. Oh, yes. She plants something in Haku To get to get control Haku to do whatever her bidding is

39:03KT: Mhmm. Which isn't exactly something someone good would do. Yeah. And I guess that points to, you know, if you wanna talk about the theme of over consumption with consumerism, then Yubaba is definitely quite strong in that element.

39:03Oti: Yeah. She's just stacking her chips.

39:03KT: Stacking her chips and flying away. It's kind of like guitarist, isn't it? She's like holding all of these people's identities. Actually, now that you think of it, that's fucking grim. And

39:36KT: they can't leave and then they get to the point where they don't remember their names and they're stuck there forever. Yep. Jesus. Can't even keep a speck of gold to themselves.

39:45Oti: Yeah. And and as much as she wasn't the classic evil death to everyone She was she was the closest to a mustache twirling villain. Yeah. She was. You know, old lady with their whiskers. And you can tell she's leading you. She's ruling that place with an iron fist anyway because because everyone is scared to death of her.

40:04KT: Oh, yes. And I guess that's how everything was allowed to unfold because she wasn't she wasn't there when Kaonashi was wreaking havoc, which was quite interesting. Zeniba was a nice was a nice, very welcome reprieve from Yubaba. It was a it was a very different sort of transition because you have a point in the story where Chihiro has come to apologize on behalf of Haku, but it's also an exercise for her to remember who she is,

40:37KT: what her name is, and how how she can get back home. Yeah. Because ideally, that's what we are working towards. Yeah. Right? You even have at the start of the film where she's saying it's all a dream. It's all a dream. Not B I G style. Yeah. C H I style. And she started to become a bit transparent. Mhmm. If we wanna be real for a second, Miyazaki said that that message was more about physical environments as well as traditional sort of values eroding away. Damn dog.

41:09Oti: Yeah.

41:12KT: But, you know, to to have her trying to find who she is and where she came from, it was imperative that Zeniba was that nurturing sort of type, way more nurturing than the mother actually. Yeah.

41:44Oti: Actually, the mother seemed to be standoffish a bit. Like the parents treated her like she was a nuisance, which, you know, she might have been, but she didn't seem like the annoying type of kid. She just seemed like the sulky type of kid. Yeah. And it's quite ironic that even though they're the parents, they were behaving more irresponsible than Chihiro was.

41:47KT: Yeah. But then maybe we're seeing them through the lens of a child.

41:51Oti: They decided to take a route that's super dangerous, and the dad was driving as a maniac. He made made super bad decisions back to back Mhmm. To back. And Chihiro was there just wondering what the fuck. I think they were pretty much the children in this.

42:12KT: And the the interesting thing is because I guess the whole overarching narrative for Chihiro was to,

42:18KT: I guess, understand who she is as a person and also find their way back home. And then it got to the end of the film where I'm like, I would rather stay here. Why would I wanna go back chill here. Why would I wanna go back to a mom and dad that doesn't care about me and I have to go back to school? Yeah. I have to ask when I need to pee? No. Thank you. Especially a new school, a new house. Nah, man. I'm not doing that shit. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because in the process of moving.

42:43KT: I'd be like, I don't know my motherfucking name. My name is Sen, bitch. You're stuck with me forever. But I think Zeniba provided that sort of reprieve that she needed to have. She even said, call me granny. And they had woven a hair tie for her that was made from her friends. So that was quite nice. Let's talk about the scene when essentially after that where she gets the hair tie and she starts to remember and there's a visitor at the door. And that's where we see Haku in all of his glory. Mhmm.

43:20KT: With the chicken legs. Yeah? With the chicken legs. And I didn't I didn't put it as a theme for Miyazaki films, but I feel like he really likes those chicken legs. Because he keeps putting it on things that shouldn't. Howl's Moving Castle? Watch out for that. But it was it was a lovely moment because throughout the film, you see glimpses, especially with the river spirit that she was cleaning.

43:48KT: You know, she had a glimpse of how she might've remembered Haku as being the river spirit that saved her. Mhmm. So in that scene, we see Haku as the dragon and, you know, Zeniba forgives him because it was it was the poison that Yubaba had put in him. Yeah. And, you know, they they fly off together. And again, it's very whimsical and it's magical and you have that music carrying you to places, happy places in your childhood that you never had. But you're experiencing in this film and it gets to a point which Chihiro remembers his name.

44:21Oti: Yeah. Cute. That was really that was that was cute. I think that that flying scene reminded me of The NeverEnding Story. Have you watched that movie?

44:33Oti: It's that big dragony Yeah. White it's like a white big puffy chest not puffy chest, like puffy cheeks. Yeah. Yeah. And

44:33KT: That was a bit before my time. But anyway

44:45Oti: Haku remembered his name, his full name, and then they started falling. Yeah. I was like, oh, man. Maybe Chihiro should have waited until they landed.

44:45KT: No. Because they're swept up in the magic. They're not gonna fall.

44:45Oti: Well, yeah, I didn't know he was Peter Pan.

45:00KT: And you were you were saying no one cares for Disney and there you go, sir. Oh, but it was it was a culmination of the buildup of the film. And isn't that fucking satisfying? Because you could see the moment. They talk about love. I'm not necessarily sure if they talk about a romantic love because then it feels a bit Twilight-esque because how old is a river spirit anyway? Maybe he looks like the old man. He's just like he's just got some extra like bloods blood what is it? Fetal? Yes. Stem cells. Juice. Right?

45:38KT: Just put it in a blender. South Park and Miyazaki had a baby and you've got For Your Reference. I guess I never really took it as like a romantic sort of love. I guess I took it as like, I care for someone.

45:55Oti: Don't think it was romantic.

45:57KT: And I I know we jumped ahead, but it was so it was so gratifying in the most purest of ways to see that come to play because he's always been that guardian spirit for Chihiro. He he really has. Even throughout this film. Mhmm. So it was nice to see that happen. And there were also moments, even big moments where Chihiro pulled through for him too. Right? I just wanna talk about while we're talking about Haku and Chihiro, there is a moment when he gets injured because he steals the seal from Zeniba

46:38KT: and they crash all the way into the boiler room with Kamaji. Mhmm. Do you remember the part where Chihiro was trying to give him the the food from the other river spirit Yep. And the way Chihiro was trying to open Haku's mouth. Yeah. So Miyazaki always tries to have some grounding in reality so it can help them animate better. Unfortunately, no one on the team had a dog. So they actually went to a vet and made a vet feed a dog treats in order to see how a dog snarls

47:17KT: with its teeth in order to be able to animate that in there.

47:23Oti: Yeah. That's pretty much you and old boy. Yeah.

47:27KT: And we're not talking about Oti's member. We're talking about our dog. But it was I I thought that was quite interesting just from a technical point of view. Sometimes you need just need to be able to have a reference to be able to animate that. Also in that particular scene when he gets slammed across the shelves, the way Miyazaki explained it was to, you know, slam against the shelves like gecko and then fall to the floor like a snake. So that was quite interesting as well. But it was really nice to see,

48:01KT: you know, Haku and Chihiro really try and figure things out together. And I think on some level, unknowing to Haku at least, Chihiro brought that hope back into him. Yeah. I think he had long abandoned, you know, hope of having his name back and remembering who he was. So that was a very nice and mutually beneficial sort of relationship that they had.

48:30Oti: Agreed.

48:32KT: Someone else that I wanna spend some time on is Kaonashi otherwise known as No-Face. I think he presents quite an interesting sort of element into this film. On the surface, he is a character that causes a lot of chaos, which he is. And I think in a in a lot of ways, you know, there are a lot of layers to this film. Mhmm. Especially with Kaonashi because, you know, kids just see the scary thing that is eating everyone. But when you start to peel back, you know, and delve a little bit deeper,

49:09KT: there's actually a reason why he becomes what he is. I think the best way for me to understand Kaonashi is he kind of mirrors the highs and the lows of society. Right? Whether it's spirit society or mortal society because he doesn't actually get allowed into the bathhouse until Chihiro allows him in. Right? And interestingly, I've watched this film so many times, but I don't think I picked it up until this particular viewing. Yes. He becomes that big greedy sort of beast, but that is actually learned behavior.

49:50KT: Yeah. Because the first sort of gesture that we see from him is when Chihiro goes to get the bath tokens and she can't get the bath tokens and Kaonashi helps her. Right? And then he sees that that makes her happy and he's like, oh, okay. And then he ends up giving her this whole bunch. Yeah. Right? So that's the first innocent sort of example we see. Then we start to see the river spirit come in. Right,

50:17KT: and getting all of the tokens and eventually the river spirit is cleaned up and he's very thankful and he leaves all of the gold behind. Mhmm. Kaonashi sees the way that people react to that Yep. And how that, you know, instinctual sort of greed takes over. And I never noticed it until watching it for the x amount of times that I've watched this film. And this is actually, yes. I think this is the first time I've watched a Japanese sub. Wow. So there you go. It unlocked powers in KT. Mhmm. Achievement unlocked for me.

50:57KT: But I didn't realize, I just thought that he just started giving gold just because he wanted to be, you know, he just wanted everything. He

51:04Oti: saw it, he observed society and just maybe with whatever he thought he Exactly.

51:10KT: It was learned behavior mind you. And then, you know, we have the first instance with the frog character and then he adopts the legs and he also has the voice as well. So that's even more of a slap in the face of him mimicking and consuming literally what is around him. Right? And it it's this insatiable sort of greed that feeds off from everyone else that he starts to embody himself. Yeah.

51:43KT: The moments of reflection or the the I guess the the the steps backwards that he takes is whenever Chihiro is put back into the picture. Right? Even the fact that she had been saving the food from the river spirit for her parents but she gave it to him instead, that talked to her nature as well. Yeah. And I thought it was quite interesting because, you know, in any other sort of story, you'll be like, this guy is bad. He's very bad. Stay away from him.

52:16KT: But it it just shows that it just wasn't a good place for him. He was too impressionable. Right? So I thought that was quite interesting.

52:26Oti: Yeah. It really was.

52:28KT: And then he found he found his footing with Zeniba. There's also comparisons drawn between Kaonashi and a silkworm. Because of the face, it looks similar to like a silkworm, especially because the marking that looks like a mouth isn't actually where the mouth is. And then with Zeniba, he's also pulling like a thread, so it kinda looks like a silkworm as well. There there's a lot there's a lot of analysis in regards to how much of Japanese, you know, sort of mythology or religion is embedded, you know, in Miyazaki films.

53:10KT: In regards to Spirited Away, he hasn't fully succinctly confirmed that, you know, it's because of this. But Kaonashi, as far as we can tell is his own creation as well as the soot spirits. Yeah. The little kitty guys. Yeah. So I really feel like Kaonashi. And again, if No-Face has more character development in a script you are writing, then you need to stop. Right? Yep. I I just wanted to spend some time talking about Kaonashi because he was quite interesting.

53:48KT: And, you know, the the layers that are in this film, even as we continue to talk about it, it's just wow.

53:54Oti: Yeah. It really is amazing. It really is amazing. And it goes to show you, like, a lot of things we do in society have effects. Like, there's always a cause and effect for everything. And I think this just showed it really, really beautifully.

54:11KT: I think it really did. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about Kamaji. I thought he was quite fun. He was very endearing. He was like old man Logan, but we love you sort of thing. And obviously, we're first introduced to him when Chihiro is asking for a job. He is quite busy with, the spirits that are helping him out as well. Something that was quite interesting is later on in the film where we have Haku that's injured and Chihiro steps on the leech that was on the seal. They talked about

54:52KT: cutting the line. Oh, really? Yes. So this is when Chihiro had her hands in like a circle, like a rectangular sort of shape. And then you had Kamaji breakthrough that. Yeah. So this is older sort of Japanese, like good luck just cutting through that. But the interesting thing was Rumi that played or voiced the character of Chihiro was so young that she didn't even know what that custom was. So Miyazaki had to explain it to her to the point of a sound engineer just shaking his head to Miyazaki saying kids these days. And

55:36KT: they had a really not weird, but the the way that they had to explain in the English dub was different because it's completely different as well, obviously. I think that was quite nice. And the fact that later on when Lin comes into the picture, he claims Chihiro as his granddaughter. Yeah. So that was quite nice. And he got the tickets for her as well. It was nice to see so much people just willing to help her. Yeah. Yeah.

56:14Oti: Because at first I thought he was just not going to do anything about it. Or he was just being stubborn. Mhmm. But you actually see this kind of this kind of caring side to him. Yeah. Because he really does care even though he doesn't express it. You can't really see it. Mhmm. But the love is there and you could tell the way he cares for Lin as well. Yeah. They hold this dynamic relationship thing going that just works.

56:40KT: Oh, and Lin is great, isn't she?

56:44Oti: Yeah, she is. She's amazing.

56:45KT: Like she she comes off as a hard ass but she really cares. Time and time again, she's just sticking her neck out for Chihiro. So that was really nice to see. Yeah. Speaking about Lin and Chihiro, we have a parsnip god known as Oshira-sama. And Oti, I have a qualm with you. Why do you keep submitting my body for this footage?

56:45Oti: Every time I saw that radish beer, I just felt happy. Yeah.

57:22Oti: It's interestingly drawn

57:24KT: to say the least. You're used to seeing it. That's why. But it was quite it was quite interesting to see, you know, the spirit world fantastical nature of this film and how everything just came to life. And I guess we can pretty much allude to the fact that, you know, this was all from Chihiro's imagination. Yeah. And it was all very vibrant. I also like the Bo the baby. I just wanted to say that one more time. Yeah. I've been watching the English dub like pretty much every other time

58:04KT: and I feel like the Japanese subtitle was way more harsh because when Chihiro meets Bo for the first time, he says, if you leave, I'll cry and if I cry, my mom will kill you. That was very Cartman.

58:22Oti: Yeah. That was too Cartman.

58:24KT: I feel like in the English dub, it said my mom will get you or my mom will hurt you. I don't remember it saying my mom will kill you.

58:33Oti: You've got a Sarita's things for the English babies.

58:36KT: For the pussy babies? Mhmm. But it was nice. And I really love how Miyazaki has a way to make you care about tiny little soot spirits. You know what I mean? And that's not an easy thing to do. And I always say, you know, like a protagonist is great and we expect multiple dimensions. But to have your secondary, even tertiary sort of characters to have multiple dimensions to them is credit to the story. To give us something to really sink our teeth into, it shouldn't go understated.

59:18Oti: And

59:19KT: I really love this film and I will continue to indulge in this film in many more times to come.

59:19Oti: I'll do the same. Together, hopefully.

59:19KT: Mhmm. So thank you so much guys for listening to this episode, a very momentous episode in the For Your Reference household. We fucking love you guys. Usually, we will end off in a segment we call For Your Reference, but this is essentially a package deal.

59:47Oti: Mhmm.

59:49KT: So our references will essentially be everything on this degustation menu following Porco Rosso. So thank you so much, guys. If you wanna see what we're doing on a daily basis on Twitter and Instagram, we are For Your Ref Pod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. Leave us an Apple rating and review if you'll be so kind. We'll appreciate it very kindly. We also have a Patreon too, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.