Luce – Pawn to be heard

Full transcript of Luce – Pawn to be heard.

0:00KT: Salve, friends and lovers. We are starting off with a little announcement. Please stay tuned for our Reference Degustation that is starting next month for a whimsical month of Miyazaki to celebrate our one year anniversary in podcasting. I also wanna give a shout out, what what, to my ever so thankful, ever so existent, Oti. He edited this episode even though he's feeling well. I know some of you guys like to listen to episodes without watching it. We would strongly recommend that you do

0:36KT: watch Luce before you listen to this episode. We break it all apart, and we discuss all of the details. You can stream it on Hulu. You can also buy it on Amazon, Google Play, and YouTube as well. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You got your host, KT.

0:36Oti: And Oti.

0:36KT: And hold on to those fireworks because we are getting into a movie by some definitions today. Thank you so much for joining us. If you have watched this film,

1:35KT: then you're most welcome to this episode. You're also most welcome if you haven't watched it, but we're all about spoilers around you. Mhmm. And this is a film that is called Luce. It came out at least it started off in the Sundance Film Festival in January 2019. It's got quite an expansive cast, Oti. Oh, yeah. So before we even get to the cast, the director was Julius Onah, and it was based on a play written by J. C. Lee who also adapted it into a screenplay.

2:06KT: This is usually where we get into the stats, but for some, I'm sure, deliberate reason, I couldn't find the budget anywhere. You know, I I did as much extensive research as my learned self could do and I couldn't find it on IMDb, Box Office Mojo. Feel free to tweet us if you find it anywhere. But as I start to read the stats that might start to determine why with a capital ho. Opening weekend, it made 132,000 and the worldwide gross was $2,000,000. Oh. Oh, I should at least say 2,200,000.

2:45KT: I know this was like sort of an indie sort of release so that might also reflect the earnings of that. But you know, it might come out on streaming services or it might already have come out on streaming services. So you might start to see, you know, more buzz and more talking. I remember watching the trailer was around the same time we saw Farming, the trailer for that as well. So I thought we were going to get, you know, you know, a similar sort of story being told.

3:16KT: But, you know, obviously, we'll get into that and that sort of thing. But let's quickly rattle off the cast that we have. Naomi Watts. Woo hoo. I really thought I knew what she looked like.

3:28Oti: Clearly, you don't.

3:28KT: But I didn't realize that was

3:28Oti: watch Mulholland Drive and and get a peek of herself.

3:28KT: What? What? Octavia Spencer who seems to be appearing in a lot of things with troublesome young men.

3:28Oti: Yeah. I think every time I see her, I just wait for her to give me some piece of cake. And some Baked some especially.

3:49KT: Some beverages in the attic. Tim Roth, tried and true. True Blue. We love Tim Roth. Kelvin Harrison, I really had high hopes for this fella. Yeah. But we'll we'll definitely get into, you know, more of that and what that means. But, know, our whole sort of cast has quite a lot of characters that we have and quite a lot of puppeteering going on as well. So we're definitely going to dive into it. Let's talk about first impressions, Oti. You know,

4:22KT: just, you know I think aside from the trailer, there really wasn't much that we knew about this film aside from basically what the subject matter was going to be. And then, you know, feel free to just overall share your thoughts on what you felt or what what you got out of this film, if anything.

4:43Oti: So you you had at least the trailer to go by. I can't remember watching the trailer at all. So

4:43KT: Because I gave you a Forget-Me-Now. That's an Arrested Development reference.

4:43Oti: So going into this, I had completely zero idea what I was going to watch or what the movie was about. The poster is a bit ambiguous. It could be about pretty much anything. But yeah. Look. Watching it, it felt like it was building up to

5:09Oti: an ultimate crescendo of some sorts, and it felt like you know how thrillers are like psychological thrillers sometimes are really slow paced, but the payoff is what you're there for. Mhmm. That's what I was hoping for with this movie. But yeah. Like, I didn't really expect much from it. Yeah. And I

5:29KT: I I don't know. And when we can we can talk about this. Please don't come and fight us. Octavia Spencer, she seems to be taking on a lot of roles lately. Like, in more roles than I would think to see her in. She's actually in a lot of stuff. She's she's also in that Apple TV series, Truth Be Told Yep. Where she's, you know, she's understanding that podcasts, if you're most welcome, is is on the rise. It's an interesting concept for a show, but she seems to be in quite a lot of stuff.

6:00KT: Whether that's to say it's it's quantity over quality is a is a story for another day. But, you know, in in a lot of our But you're talking about, mama? In a lot of our episodes, particularly with our Predestination episode we did quite a while ago, like, you know, Ethan Hawke is that actor. Like, you can rely on him even if you don't know what it is. You can kind of guarantee that you're in for an interesting maybe not

6:27KT: wholly satisfying, but you're in for an interesting time if you choose anything from Ethan Hawke's filmography. Do you think with Octavia Spencer choosing so many different things that maybe it's hard to like, is she reliable in in the roles that she chooses? Like, if I see Olivia Spencer on a role, I'm like Octavia. Hot hot. We can afford the real one.

6:49KT: If I choose if I see Octavia Spencer

6:54KT: in a cast and I'm like, hot doggy. This is gonna be a great one. Yeah. Like, you know how, you know, everyone loved Bruce Willis, but then it got to a point where he did cop out with Tracy Morgan. Like like, sometimes it gets to a point where there are some actors that are more reliable

7:11KT: when you pick anything from their filmography that you're going to at least have a good time.

7:11Oti: Yeah. I understand that. But I feel like for Black actresses, it's like a different bar where the

7:21Oti: fact that you're getting movies is, like, cool. Regardless of what color bar you are.

7:21KT: Stop there because then we just get Tyler Perry. And we love you, Tyler Perry. There's a reason why you retired those

7:33KT: saggy titties. You know?

7:33Oti: Yeah. By the end of the day, it's about that paper, and I don't blame her for chasing it.

7:39KT: I love how you didn't really answer my question, but you're most welcome,

7:43KT: Oti.

7:43Oti: No. But she does have some Some. But I'm just saying She does have some drawing power. And if I do see Olivia Spencer, at least I know I'll get who am I getting Olivia from? Olivia Pope? Anything on Kerry Washington? No. Well, she does look like an Olivia, doesn't she?

8:00KT: Anyway Hey, man. I am not diving into this. I do not have the frame of reference to be allowed to do that.

8:06Oti: But every time I see Octavia Spencer, I know regardless of whether the move is gonna be bad or good, she will give a 100% top notch performance. So if if anything else, at least you get a good solid performance from her.

8:21KT: And if anything else, if if you were to rely on Oti to say, hey. Does this dress look okay on me? Don't believe him because he's too nice. And he'll never say, get your fat ass in a in a bigger dress. Like, he's just he's he's just not that type of guy. But but Octavia Spencer is is has star power. She has a Yeah. I'm not I'm not taking anything away from her, but I'm just saying there are some actors and there are some actresses where you can pretty much rely on

8:49KT: the roles that they take on. You know? There are some actors where you're just like, I might just skip this one. You know what I mean? Even though you like them as an actor, you might not necessarily

8:58KT: wanna watch everything they're in.

8:58Oti: Yeah. Like Dwight Johnson right now. Like, I'm looking at The Rock. I'm like, nah, mate. I want

9:07KT: We can afford Dwayne The Rock Johnson.

9:09Oti: Oh, far out.

9:11KT: So this is I think this is Oti's way to try and manage, like, a hustle like, a side hustle you've got for your impersonators where you can, like,

9:22KT: hire some fake sort of actors.

9:22Oti: My my bootleg my bootleg tapes business, my bootleg DVDs.

9:30KT: Three DVDs for $1.

9:33Oti: We used to have DVDs that held, like, 15 movies and shit, and Oh, yeah. The quality would be crap ass, but we watched that shit over and over again. So you know? Yeah. But then, you know, even now, you can't even handle 720.

9:50KT: Like, how far we have come, my love? How far we have come? And how far we have not come in regards to this movie. Because I I I just made a general statement in regards to Octavia Spencer, but Dwight Johnson came along as well. So so let's go back to the first impressions of the film. You know, we can get into more detail, but I was excited. You know, we started off this film. It started off to be a very simple sort of premise. And as the film unfolded, we started to have more layers.

10:26KT: There was more complexity.

10:27Oti: Yep.

10:28KT: You know, even Luce's character, he says, I think like two thirds of the way through the film, why do I why am I either a angel or a demon? Why can't I be in between? Like, why is it just both extremes? You know? Why is it one or the other? There are no in betweens.

10:46Oti: But angel or a demon. Like, you can't be What world do you live in? This world? Okay. Well, you're you're in for a world of pain. And and this is not your intervention.

10:57KT: So we're we're not going to get we're not going to be able to unpack all of those problematic morsels today. But, essentially, what I'm saying is it was thrilling. Like you said, it was like a thriller. It it was very Gone Girl esque as well because, you know, it it didn't even matter because I didn't even care if Ms Wilson or if Luce was the essential antagonist or the bad guy. Yeah. I actually didn't care because I was so fascinated with the cat and mouse,

11:27KT: you know, the back and forth, the chess game that they had going on. And I literally they they had a scene where he went to go and see her because she summoned him, obviously. And she said he was like, thank you so much for coming to his little debate mock trial sort of thing. And then they had a little discourse and, you know, to to gain the upper hand, Luce was like, what's your favorite holiday? And that was just the way to antagonize

11:53KT: her and mention fireworks. Right? So all throughout the scene when you're switching cameras, you can see at the back they've got like a little poster about the chess club. And I get it. Like, I I already see this this strategic sort of movements that are going on very similar to a chess game. So when I saw that, I was rolling my eyes. You know? And even when they left that scene, they focused on that fucking poster. Like, we get it. Like,

12:21KT: we get it. We get it. But also at the same time, you know, there there are different sort of people that watch films. Like, going back to the iconic Joker.

12:30KT: Yes. I'll take another Joaquin slice. Thank you. You know, some people were saying, and we're not gonna spoil it if you still haven't seen it, but, you know, a lot of people were saying, oh, this was so on the nose. Why did you have to reveal this? You know? You illustrated it. You didn't have to reveal it. But then you also have people on the other hand that were like, I didn't get it. Spoon feed me, daddy. You know? Like so

12:54KT: so I get it. So and and that's just like a baby qualm. That doesn't get in the way of me enjoying or besmirching a particular movie. But, you know, it was thrilling and I was really like I said, I was really enjoying the cat and mouse and the chess sort of movements that were going out throughout the film. However, friends and lovers Mhmm. That ending, what was that? And we can we can get into proper discussion, but just in general note, Oti,

13:21KT: how did you feel about it?

13:21Oti: I intentionally just left that out so that I don't get angry at the start of this pod podcast. But, wow, if there was ever a disappointing movie on how it ended, this is it. This takes the cake Yeah. The icing And the chicken. Rum.

13:41KT: Oh, the rum?

13:42Oti: Like, you know the wedding cakes where they put rum in so it can last longer and shit? Yeah. Those are literally the worst things ever. I've I'm yet to taste a good one. Yes. This movie is an equivalent of a wedding cake that's been that's made with rum. The one that smells like feet? Yeah. Probably tastes like feet. Tastes like feet. Smells like feet. Everything feet esque. It's pretty much a Quentin Tarantino

14:07Oti: Once Upon a Time in Hollywood show.

14:07KT: Yes, queen. I was hoping you would make reference. Bam.

14:11Oti: If you're not here for anything else, you're here for fucking references.

14:16KT: Speaking of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, we did veto that film in regards to talking about it because it made us so fucking angry. And, you know, even Oti, we were really enjoying this film, and we're very, very excited to talk about it until that fucking ending. And I said, come on. Like, we can't just cover things that we like. You know what I mean? Like, we need to try and stretch ourselves. And unless it makes us archer rampage

14:43KT: angry, then we should still record an episode on it. Yeah. Because we've watched it, and there are actually, you know, some some morsels that we can taste along the way as well. But, yeah, that bloody ending. I tell you. If anyone actually enjoyed that ending, feel free. Like, you know, I guess if you wanna say spoiler spoiler spoiler, but it's universally accepted that, you know, most people were not a fan of the way Sopranos ended. Right? Because there literally wasn't any ending.

15:13Oti: No. But I how this film felt. Sopranos took it farther in that you could be able to to extrapolate yourself on how it ended or or just come up with theories. True. This gave us nothing. This didn't even give us that. Like, it was just Luce running towards the end. I'm like, what the fuck? Is he not gonna face anything? Is he just all swept under the rug? Is wasting two hours or whatever fucking long this was watching it just didn't matter at all? What's the payoff?

15:44Oti: Especially for a thriller, you have to have a payoff. Oh, yes. We're we're building to something. We're building to something. That's what the basic general genre is. If you're not gonna deliver on that, then what the hell what the hell are you making? What are you trying to tell? What's the story? Because it has a lot of interesting themes in this. Yeah. Ones which will for sure get into,

16:07KT: but that doesn't mean that she dropped the ball. So you're good at foreplay, but let's get to penetration. Yeah. I wanna get penetrated. Come on. You wanna get penetrated? Yeah. Do say strap in or strap on. And again, that's just our Friday night. Right? For sure. But let's let's leave the ending because I think the temperature, you know, rose a few degrees Celsius. Get onto the metric system. Is that metric? Yeah. Okay. Get onto the metric system, Americans. But, yeah, let's let's leave the ending for a second. I just wanna

16:45KT: I just wanna address some of some of the, you know, discussion points that they had before we even talk about Luce because he is a whole bucket of animosity. Mhmm. Some cases, deservedly so. Yeah. But let's let's try and let's try and actually unpack the themes that were introduced in this film. Mhmm. Because there was there was so much use of symbols in this film, I thought we were going to see them to fruition. Yeah. Well, we actually didn't.

17:17KT: So we have Luce and I don't think it's kinda like a Spartacus thing. I don't think we ever learned what his real name was.

17:17Oti: No. And he probably doesn't remember either because of the trauma

17:17KT: I think he knows I think he knows his name. It's just that they didn't address it. It's more of just a Spartacus thing. Yep. Not as good. Not as good. Rest in peace, Andy Whitfield. Please check out our Rest in peace. Please check out our Spartacus episode. But it it was, you know so essentially, he's from Eritrea

17:46Oti: Mhmm.

17:47KT: And it was alluded that he was a child soldier. Yep. He also mentioned to Ms Wilson when she was trying to confront him after the mother didn't confront Luce. You know, he he was essentially trying to disarm her saying, you know, it it is a bit scary that, you know, someone that learned how to shoot a gun before learning how to drive a car can understand how you might have felt when I wrote that essay. Yeah. Right? So they're alluding to themes here. So, you know, it's not just necessarily

18:17KT: like black against white, it's also immigration. Mhmm. Right? So you have I think he was around seven years old when he got adopted. Yeah. And seven is a young age but fucking hell, it seemed like he had gone through quite a lot. He had gone through quite a lot. As well. So, you know, you you have you have him migrating to America. So you have a lot of themes here. And again, spoiler spoiler spoiler because I I just wanna get to discussion. So I'm I am jumping further into the film.

18:48KT: The the interesting sort of intertwining for, you know, multiple but very similar sort of themes in regards to, you know, being black and also being in a white world. You have Ms Wilson's character, and this is near the end when Luce comes with flowers to go and see Ms Wilson. Right? And they have this very engaging dialogue. And I really wish like you said, hopefully, we were building to a crescendo. So this was one of the main platforms

19:18KT: to build off on that. Mhmm. But unfortunately, that's as far as we went with this film. Yep. Right? But she was, you know, she was talking about well, first of all, Luce saw the graffiti Mhmm. Which obviously well, I guess if you didn't see it, you didn't see it. But it was obvious to us that he had some sort of part in that. Yep. Right? That graffiti with n word on it. Yep. And bitch. And,

19:41KT: you know, he because, you know, like, a lot of the time they talk about criminals wanting to and getting off at the scene of the crime. Mhmm. Right? So he you know, after she threw the flowers on the floor, he came into the house just so he could be shocked to look at that graffiti. Mhmm. Right? And when he when he saw that, he was he was like, oh my god. Oh my god. And Ms Wilson makes a very interesting comment and she's like, you've never been called that before, have you? And

20:10KT: he's like, no. No. I haven't. And then she's like, well, that's why you're so fucking happy. You know what I mean? Like, there's there's his struggle as as a child from all sorts of abuse and trauma coming into America, but then there's also another layer of how African Americans get treated as well. And it's interesting to see that because it's not just Luce has his pain and trauma because you can also see that Ms Wilson has gone through some shit as well. So

20:41KT: how do you even reconcile that? Right? They are not the same and they shouldn't be the same. And it was really interesting to see that exchange between the two because, yes, their experiences are completely different. But in the way of the world, in the perception of the world, it's the same sort of game.

21:00Oti: It is. It really is. And I think in addressing your theme of migration and all, I think the bigger theme or the underlying theme for this was adoption and assimilation. So we have Luce who's taken from Eritrea, seven years old, a child soldier, and the Edgars who, you know, at least wanted to do something right. I think they didn't really even discuss it properly because both of them were into separate minds. It was more Amy that wanted it. Yeah. Amy was was,

21:39Oti: yep. Let's do this. There's this kid in Eritrea. Let's go and get him. He's a child soldier. It's the least we could do. And Peter was like Tim Roth's character, Peter was like, okay. Fine. I think he just went along with it. And, of course, that brings a lot of complications because this kid won't just come and assimilate properly Yeah. With the rest of the people. So those years of therapy and, of course, this creates some sort of divide, which you can see in Amy. Amy and Peter. Mhmm. Because both of them are different.

22:14Oti: At the start, Peter is quite clear on calling him bullshit on Luce's behavior.

22:21KT: Yep. I was like, mate, stop lying. This is bullshit. I can see through you. But it's I think it's also a fine line because if if it was his own kid, you would go hard. Right? Yeah. But because he wasn't their biological kid, it's hard to know, are you doing that because he's not biologically your kid? Or are you being softer on him, which is more Amy's case,

22:43KT: because you feel like you have to apologize for the fact that it's not biologically your kid.

22:43Oti: Yeah. And I think there's a level of definitely overcompensation on Amy's bit because she doesn't look logic in the face. And even when she's faced with the truth, she just decides to lie. And I guess anyone in the position with who has a kid would do the same thing.

22:43KT: I but I related to that. Not not even just, like, having a kid.

23:07KT: Like, you know, sometimes there are truths that you're just not ready to face. And it was quite clear that Amy wasn't ready to face any of that. And even throughout watching this movie, you're like, it's right in her face. You know? What is she doing? What is she doing? But it's not necessarily that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And and then I guess what Luce was definitely struggling with was identity.

23:30Oti: Who is he as a person? Who is he? Because on one hand, his friends, I think, one of his friends even said, you know black black, you know, like DeShaun. You know, Luce. Oliga Oliga Oliga? Yeah. Something like that or some random shit. That's his name. And The white guy. And you could tell that Luce takes it to heart and he's like, fucking hell. What does this mean? Even though he plays it off as some sort of joke, you could tell it's it's affected him because he's also struggling with self identity.

24:00Oti: Who the fuck is he?

24:00KT: It was but it was very interesting because I feel like he was, by all definitions, and come and fight me people that know what they're talking about. Like, he was a full on psychopath or even a sociopath, which whichever one he fit under, like, he genuinely knew what he was doing. Yeah. And he was a full on, you know, puppeteer. Like, he was pulling all the strings. He knew how to emotionally manipulate

24:27KT: people.

24:27Oti: Yeah. True. And and I'm not trying to say that Luce is is is not a psychopath or whatever, but he is struggling with things. He struggled with things way deeper than this. And for him to have this sort of facade created Mhmm. So that he could present himself to the world as people see him. Mhmm. Because it's all a show to him. This is not exactly who he is as a person. This is just what people want him to be.

24:54Oti: Of course. We have you know, when we we adopted a greyhound, and when we brought him home, he was so nervous. Mhmm. And we thought of a million names would call him. But by the fact that he was so nervous and we wanted to just make him comfortable, we were like, okay. Let's do the right thing and let's just keep his name. Let's just keep him name so we can maintain some sort of normalcy. He didn't even have that. For the mere fact that the mother just couldn't pronounce his name, the dad was like

25:24Oti: make it let's make it easier on us. Let's make it easier on us as if it's it's it's his his name doesn't

25:31Oti: Let's disregard any shred of identity he has, and let's make it easier for us to pronounce And that plays on on a bigger stage when he doesn't really understand who he is because on one hand, DeShaun gets caught with pot in his locker and gets sent to and the police got gets called. He gets dropped out of the team. Which you, I would say, rightfully theorized was possibly Luce's. Yeah. Exactly. And then you have Luce who has fireworks, and it's completely different treatment.

26:00Oti: So he doesn't understand. He doesn't he's like a blank canvas for himself in trying to identify who he is as a person, where he stands, and what exactly people expect. And, you know,

26:13Oti: when I was growing up, man, self identity was pretty much everything. Yeah. And you really needed to know exactly who the fuck you what you what should stood for Mhmm. Who you are. And that's the time you figure it out, and that's the time you try and explore your own way. So Luce doesn't really have that because he's just living off what people want him to be. So the fact that he's a fucking psychopath, it makes perfect sense.

26:35KT: But I think I think he was woefully aware of his self identity. I think quite young, the fact that they renamed him, he knew that he couldn't be his whole self. Yeah. He knew he needed to be the self that everyone wanted him to be, that wouldn't scare anyone and again would be proof that the American way works. Yeah. What I really appreciated about this movie is they really did plant those seeds.

27:06Oti: Mhmm. But you didn't come back and water your seeds and harvest them, my friend. No. The seeds were there. The seeds were there. They're just waiting for water to germinate. But not they kicked germination up their fucking ass. And it wasn't a great time either. But yeah, they didn't give this movie a chance to grow.

27:06KT: I I genuinely

27:24KT: feel like there are different layers to Luce. Okay? So yes, he is a black man living in America. And then you take a step back. He migrated to America. Take another step back. He possibly was a child soldier and he suffered abuse beyond imagination. Okay? Take another step back. I genuinely feel like he was genuinely a psychopath or like a sociopath, and that had nothing to do yes. He had his own experiences,

27:55KT: but you do have people that migrate from other places or go through some sort of trauma, and they're not the way that Luce was. They weren't manipulative to the extent where they were playing with people's lives. So what I'm saying is, yes, he had a hard life. Yes, he went on a rampage, but I also feel like there's that mental sort of illness or disorder, sorry, I'm wording it wrong, that Luce had. It wasn't just because he was an immigrant and he didn't know what he was doing.

27:55Oti: No. I think it's

28:24Oti: accumulation of everything that's happened to him that turned him this way.

28:28KT: There's there's nature nurture. I understand that. But what I'm saying is there are genuine cases and there are genuine people that don't, you know, developmentally function the same way as other people. Whether it's a temporary one like a tumor or whether people just aren't, you know, physiologically set up the same way. Like that. And I'm saying that in addition to his experiences.

28:28Oti: Yeah. For sure. But I mean

28:28KT: That's just saying everyone that has similar experiences to him are like that and they're not.

28:28Oti: No. No. They're not. We've read those stories

29:04Oti: of child soldiers who've succeeded in life. Mhmm. But more often than not, we read stories of how they

29:10Oti: it it's hard for them to assimilate.

29:10KT: And I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying in this fictional experience, Luce was psycho. Yeah. He was psycho. Like, what what would you say about Christian Bale? He was fucking charming, but he was still a fucking American Psycho. You know what I mean? Like, there's so much that you can do. And you can tell Amy, as much as she she probably did more than she was supposed to, she loved and she nurtured as much as she could. But sometimes it goes beyond that. Yeah. And sometimes,

29:45KT: you know, there are some demons that you can't reconcile because it's too late. So my point is, I feel like Luce got to a point where he came into a new country. He was forced these ideals in regards to you're so lucky to be here. You're an American. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Yeah. And, you know, enjoy and be grateful for the life that you have. Get straight A's, show people, be that BuzzFeed article, you know, that against all odds, hello, Phil Collins, I'm looking at you,

30:16KT: that you've achieved everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? And and a lot of the time, like, you know, there there might have been a part of him that actually wanted to share. And you know what I found as a shortcoming? You know, a lot of the time, it it is a masterful craft to write a narrative. Mhmm. They didn't show him his upbringing, you know, him coming to America, unfortunately, the sad version of coming to America.

30:42KT: But what we, like, what we start to see here is maybe he did try. Maybe he did try to share what he went through, but then he saw the people got scared, so he just, like, pretended that everything was okay. Right? So, again, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. This film really doesn't give us any sort of resolution because I wanted to know what was motivating Luce. Right?

31:06KT: I genuinely wanted to know what was motivating him, but, you know, the thrill of the cat and mouse and the strategic sort of chess game was keeping me occupied. So I'm like, okay. Fine. Address it when you can, but let's keep going. I'm enjoying this movie. And the fact that they didn't address it, I'm just like, what the fuck? The only way that that ending would have been okay is if they actually gave us extra time ahead of what we saw in the film. Yeah. And him deciding consciously,

31:34KT: again, this is my this is a KT theory. This is KT's conspiracy corner. Seeing him make that switch of like, oh, there's no point telling these people the truth. I'm just going to give them the truth they want. Mhmm. You know what I mean? Like and because we didn't get any sort of frame of reference for how he was and the possible decision he made to just manipulate everyone and to pretend that he's buying into the American dream Yeah. And to also not have that ending, irresponsible.

32:05Oti: It is irresponsible.

32:06KT: You could use that word for more useful things, but I'm gonna use it here.

32:11Oti: It is irresponsible. I'm just like, I'm I'm I'm I'm with him, I'm of two minds with him. Really sad what he had to go through. Yeah. And then he's been brought into this environment where people don't really want to acknowledge his past. Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the things that doesn't really because once you acknowledge his past and you and you deal with it appropriately rather than trying to sweep it under the rug and trying to build someone anew

32:43Oti: because they're they're not new people. It's just they've dealt with shit. Now we need to just make you, you know, understand that life isn't like that Mhmm. Rather than sweeping all that shit under the ground and being like, boop. This is America. This is who we're gonna be, and this is everything that you need to follow. Yeah.

33:03KT: But again, we're all just theorizing because we didn't even get to see how that was handled. Yeah. But knowing knowing Amy as a character, I really feel like she would have given as much as she could. She would have went to all of the appointments she would have followed up for all of the appointments and really tried to get there yeah yeah right you know 13 Reasons Why is a Netflix series and you know, for all the teeny bopperiness, at least they came to fruition.

33:33KT: At least in the let let's just acknowledge the first season. At least they came to fruition in some sort of sense in that first season. Right? Yep. Which we didn't even get in this film. And, you know, maybe there were some executive decisions that were not across. Maybe there were some timing constraints that were not across. But come on, man. Like and again, this is as much as we have to work with in regards to this so again there's so much that

34:03KT: you know like overall I guess it depends on the sort of viewer you are because when I watch something I do have a 100 questions you know, that I feel I want to answer. Not not necessarily need to be answered but when you have foundational sort of questions particularly in regards to the driving motivations of your protagonist,

34:22KT: it gets in the way.

34:22Oti: It does. It really does. And for you to not answer that is just blatant recklessness.

34:30KT: It's But you've got the platform. Like, you might have you might have struggled for years to tell this story, but here you are, sir.

34:30Oti: Yeah. And and and the fact that he made this

34:42Oti: the tempo was slow. Mhmm. It was a slow boil. Yep. Justifiable so or not. If it was a time constraint issue, you rewrite that script to make it better so that you have a payoff that's this that's worth a viewer sitting through this and at least get walking out of the movie feeling like what they've watched, like, oh, yeah. That was a good movie. Yeah. You know? Give us any sort of bail because we had zero zealot.

35:11KT: Zero.

35:12Oti: Because you know what? You remember what I said to you when he was reading the speech? I was like, oh my god. It's gonna finish now. Yeah. I was scared it's gonna finish then.

35:21KT: What I was hoping to have is all of this sort of, you know, angst, all of this anger, all of this violence that he had because there were some violent sort of tendencies you could see alluded to his character. Right? All of this sort of, you know, internal struggles and conflict that he had, I really felt like it was going to turn into him

35:46KT: fully expressing himself. Yeah. Right? And I told you, like, maybe midway through the movie, oh, I can't wait. I can't wait for his rant where he holds up a mirror to society saying you guys ain't shit. Yeah. Right? And that's what I was waiting for. Yeah. Right? For him to say, you think that you've solved the world just because I happen to be a model citizen. I'm the way that you want me to be

36:12KT: through sacrifice of all of my other friends. You know what I mean? Mhmm. And I was really hoping that we would have that in the speech.

36:12Oti: Yeah. Me too.

36:12KT: The final speech rather. I really did.

36:12Oti: And, you know, the the aspect of this movie where we dealt with

36:27Oti: sexual assault is him dealing with the girlfriend, I think the ex girlfriend.

36:32KT: Actually, yes. Let's talk about this, Stephanie. Stephanie Kim?

36:36Oti: Mhmm. And I was like, this guy was there, mate. There's no way this guy can play so innocent to the fact that, you know, the the because those seeds planted that Luce was there all along. Mhmm. And then the girlfriend really didn't believe that because that that's not Luce. And then when I think they had planned with Luce on how to get back at Harriet Wilson. So she goes and fronts this confession that she was sexually assaulted and all. Yep. But even in telling that, she looked quite sad and vulnerable.

37:13KT: But it was all the puppeteering. You know? And and and, again, we will never know whether Stephanie was genuinely assaulted or

37:13Oti: She was definitely genuinely assaulted because it was rumored at school.

37:13KT: Well, in any case, she was still being manipulated by Luce. By Luce. So we don't know how far his manipulation goes and how much actually yes. I understand that particular scenario, but we don't know how much more. Yeah. Yeah. So Luce is playing Papatio with her life.

37:40Oti: Mhmm. And she buys it pretty much. Yeah. Because that's because she feels like she's being protected. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And it's just sad to see that how it all gets dealt with. And the fact that this school is so keen on maintaining status quo rather than investigating any sort of rumored of sexual assault Uh-huh. Because once you hear that shit, mate, you'd want anyone somewhere to investigate regardless of whether it's a hoax or not.

38:08KT: Yeah. And it was sad that it wasn't really dealt with the way that it should be dealt with. But, essentially, that was used you wanna go back to the chess sort of analogy. Right? She was used as a pawn. Right? Luce was using her, you know, the whole time, but then you also had him, you know, in in some way making Ms Wilson feel like she, you know, like Stephanie was her pawn.

38:32KT: Yeah. Right? But she was like a double agent the whole time. What did you think about, like, further on until the end of the film where Amy, the mom, follows Luce to a little shed where he ends up fucking Stephanie. Stephanie. There's this weird moment where in the throes of her ecstasy, Stephanie sees Amy through the window. But she just continues.

39:00Oti: She just continues fucking. Interesting. Yeah. Any normal person would just jump out and be like, stop. There's someone outside. There's your mother is fucking staring at us.

39:11KT: I think it's more to I think it's more to prove that Stephanie's been along on the journey the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's more what the scene was portraying.

39:11Oti: And that's why I'm saying any normal person would have just been like, let's

39:24Oti: stop. Someone outside. Your mother's watching us. Yeah. And I think that's where the mother realizes this. He he she didn't really know Luce that well. And

39:37KT: But I think there were so many instances where even when the fireworks disappeared, there were so many instances where Amy, if she wanted to,

39:45KT: she could see it happening.

39:45Oti: Yeah. But she chose not to accept it. But I feel that's more on her reliance not to be a failure. She just wanted to to have failed than she'd wasted all these years. You know? Even though it's not wasting her years in trying to adopt someone who's gone through shit, she felt like my husband doesn't really want this, didn't really want this, I forced it on him or whatever. Yeah. It cannot fail. And I will put up as I'll create this facade,

40:17Oti: and it'll just be that.

40:17KT: Yeah. And that that actually points to a very interesting sort of dynamic because whenever there's questioning about Luce, like Tim Roth's character just completely, you know, goes straight for Luce being like, what the fuck did you do? Right? But Amy's kinda like, oh, no. Like, it's okay. Everything's okay. And and that just shows the dynamic of those two. Yeah. And it's weird. And, you know, if you guys are opening opening and accepting, it was weird that they went to his ex's sip and see,

40:49KT: which I'm assuming is like a baby shower Yeah. Or some shit. I don't know how close everyone is with their exes to the point where you would go to, you know, celebrate them having a baby. Yeah. That's a bit weird. But I think it just But it was just to show more what he missed out on. But then, actually, no. There's a comment that he made that makes it it becomes more sharp now when you think of it in reflection. When, you know, she's

41:15KT: Amy's talking about how she was able to get an interview at some university with the professor for Luce. And then you also have Peter, Tim Roth's character, talking about the sip and see. And Amy is like, are you prioritizing your ex's baby sip and see over, you know, Luce's thing. And then he makes a comment saying, I love babies. You hate babies. You hate babies. And, like, I thought it was just like A kitty sort of joke. Yeah. And, like, thinking of it now, the fact that he's held on for ten years,

41:47KT: that this is not the life that he was particularly wanting, I'm like, shit, man. Those are daggers.

41:47Oti: Yeah. They are daggers. They're

41:56Oti: resentment daggers.

41:58KT: I guess, like but it's an interesting thing because I I feel like, you know, a lot of the time we do come back to, like, relationship dynamics and that sort of thing. But if he wanted a child of his own from his own loins, then he should have explored that. Yeah. Don't commit to something and hold on to ten years worth of resentment and throw it in Amy's face. Yeah. Like, what the fuck is that shit? It's not fair. It's not fair to Maybe you still love Amy.

42:29KT: Maybe you love Amy more than you want a child, but then be all in. Well, sorry. Not just the biological child rather. Yeah. It's not fair. It's not fair to Amy. It's not fair to the relationship.

42:41Oti: He just needed to understand. He just needed to express himself and tell Amy. He was never really all in. Yeah. Because when all this shit was going down, he kept on throwing daggers off. He kept on saying shit like, we should have just had our own baby. We could have had a normal safe family. We did have to be the symbol of political correctness. Yeah. We just had to be us with our little family.

43:05Oti: Showing that he wasn't really on board with this all along. Yeah. Oh, wow. But that's what I mean. There's so many,

43:13KT: you know, solid sort of dynamics that they have in this movie, and that's what makes it more disappointing that it didn't really fully realize itself. Yeah. Speaking of, there's something that we haven't really touched on at all. I wanna talk a bit about Ms Wilson and her sister Rosemary.

43:32Oti: Oh, yeah.

43:33KT: That was that was an interesting sort of introduction. It might have just been a way to further the narrative of how far Luce would go but and you also made a comment about how easy it is to get people's information on Facebook. You could just go and type anything. Yeah. Type anything and then bam, there it is. I think to disillusion yourself, to believe that you can hide everything and you still have some sort of smartphone, you're in denial.

44:03KT: But you know, there are some things you can do to protect yourself. But essentially, you know, that was just a offhand comment in regards to the film. But, you know, she has a sister that's not well. It doesn't really get explained to us what what she is going through. But essentially, she's not well. And she's at a facility and you know it gets to a point where she's well enough to come home.

44:27Oti: Mhmm.

44:28KT: And it's very interesting and I'm not sure if we need to read into it more than what's presented but it was interesting to see the dynamic that was there. Not necessarily the dynamic actually, how it was used and how it was portrayed and how our best friend Luce was able to find a way to manipulate that. Because I think the first instance we see of it is in the supermarket. Yeah. So he was already planting his seeds.

45:00Oti: Yep. So Luce meets coincidentally

45:03KT: Oh, very coincidentally.

45:05Oti: Bumps into a Rosemary in the supermarket, and he's so

45:10Oti: he plays aloof so well.

45:10KT: He does. He really does.

45:15Oti: And he's like, oh, he should bring Rosemary to the school. It'll be fun. Mhmm. And Rosemary, of course, not having, I think, spent a lot of time with the sister and all. She's like, yeah. That will be good. I want to go. Yeah. That doesn't happen, and she gets put back at the facility after rummaging through the house and going on on a fit. So we fast forward into a school day where miss Harriet is teaching Yeah. And she gets pulled out of class because Rosemary is running around the school shouting

45:52Oti: and saying that Harriet is embarrassed of her.

45:56KT: And before we even saw Rosemary and we just heard her shouting,

46:01KT: you were saying this is all Luce is doing.

46:01Oti: Of course. Of course. How would she find the school either way?

46:01KT: Yeah. Like, it's all Luce is doing. He knew he orchestrated

46:11KT: every single thing that happened in this show. And as we continue to say his name, it is annoying that it's so close to Lucifer.

46:11Oti: I didn't even think of it like that like that.

46:11KT: Really? It it just bothers me. It's like, come on. Like, you know, you you show so much potential when you get us caring about particular elements and then you just leave us hanging.

46:34Oti: Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, that was such a scene. I was in shock. My mouth was agape. She stripped Rosemary. I'm like, fucking hell. What are people doing? Where are the teachers? Where where's everyone? Yeah. Because you have security coming in and tasing her and dragging her out, not even putting clothes on and

46:34KT: No. But let's talk about that for a second.

46:58KT: Because Harriet was pleading with them saying she's not well, she's not well. I get as a police, you're supposed to warn them if you don't calm down, I'm going to tase you. But if someone's saying this person's not well, doesn't that count for something?

47:14Oti: I think it does. But then, again, you have to put in consideration the setting. This is happening in a school with underage children. She's naked.

47:23KT: It's just But then you also said while we were watching it, like, saying that they have to, like, restrain her. But she's not like some massive man. Like, she's this tiny

47:34KT: little woman.

47:34Oti: Yeah. That could get a hold of a knife and stab someone and then what?

47:39KT: I don't know. I just I feel like it was unnecessarily

47:43KT: heavy handed.

47:43Oti: When you're dealing with kids, you just don't take risks regardless because you really don't know what people are capable of and I suppose. I don't know.

47:43KT: It it just it's the optics of it weren't great.

47:43Oti: Optics of it definitely weren't great, but then, again, I understand how they dealt with it because I would probably want the same thing to happen if I was a parent and some random person was running around naked screaming at people and running and bumped into kids as well. Like, what the fuck? Yeah.

48:14KT: And if it was a man, I would probably be saying the same things as you. So Yeah. Like, it's I'm acknowledging my own

48:21KT: qualms.

48:21Oti: Yeah. It's it's not one thing that I they're thinking, they should have dealt with this differently because I think they dealt with it the weight needed to be dealt with. Uh-huh. Especially in the setting because that's that's the context and that's key in this.

48:37KT: Yeah but Luce had a very very innate ability just to manipulate just because. Yeah. Like he probably didn't even have a reason to. Yeah. He had so many moving parts and everyone trusted him so well. He was fully integrated into society. He knew exactly what he was doing and he got everything out of everyone that he ever needed. Yeah. And it's Luce. Who wouldn't believe Luce? He's the best student ever.

49:06Oti: Yeah. You know? And then when he was showing the recording of Rosemary spilling out or throwing a fit to the parents Mhmm. You could tell that it was him just who set up the recording of the thing all along. Oh, yes. And you could see Amy's face just change when, you know, she she she realized it.

49:29KT: It's just so fucking disappointing, man. Because, you know, as we were watching this, like, in the first third of the film, I was like, oh, this is as thrilling as, like, a Cumberbatch Moriarty, you know, sort of situation. But, man, it turned into Mycroft by the end of it. Kind of spoiler, if you know what we're talking about, but if you don't, that's fine as well. But I was really thrilled by the way the story was being set up. But

49:56Oti: it was just being set up for nothing and that's what's painful about this.

49:56KT: But it was like,

50:02KT: you know, because we live in a day where everyone loves true crime. Right? It's all about whether it's real true crime or whether it's like fictional depictions and that sort of thing so I don't have a lot of hesitation in saying that I enjoyed watching Luce wreak havoc essentially. Mhmm. Because, you know, sometimes and again, we did mention Spartacus. You know, sometimes you have characters like Ashur who are like skeevy little cockroaches that, like, survive

50:32KT: for no bloody reason and everyone else dies but then he survives. Right? But I really love seeing how masterfully crafted he was in what he was doing. Yeah. He knew exactly how to play people. He knew how to present things a particular way so that he could weasel out of that or pivot, you know, pivot out of that situation. And, you know, going back to Rosemary and Harriet, he was able to manipulate that whole situation even to the point of Peter, you know, his dad siding with him.

51:06Oti: Yeah. He's a master manipulator. He he's read people. He knows exactly what to say to them even when the mother was starting to doubt her or maybe even possibly give up on him Yeah. He was like, mom?

51:20KT: Oh my god. Because he kept saying Amy pretty much the whole movie. He

51:25KT: called her Amy throughout the whole movie.

51:25Oti: This is really mother was trying to you know, maybe I've done enough. Maybe I need to do something else. This is where you used to hide our Christmas gifts. Right, mom? Oh, bloody hell. He's so manipulative. And, you know, I was I was content. I was happy watching this movie up until the end, and then it just changed the whole picture for the movie once I saw it. Like, sometimes you you you're able to separate the ending from the movie. But in this, it just

51:59Oti: made me think that

52:01Oti: they didn't have anything else.

52:01KT: I've seen fucking Lifetime movies that have better endings than this.

52:07Oti: Hallmark do such a good job creating some really nice movies as well.

52:12KT: The the the 30 Rock subplot with Edie Falco getting shot by the neighbor's dog, that had more of a resolution than this movie. And it's like, we're disappointed because of what was laid out for us. It's not like it was shit from the start and we knew we weren't going to get a good movie. It presented itself as something very interesting with so many layers. Even all of the characters had multiple facets to them. But what we ended up getting wasn't that it wasn't complicated. It wasn't simple. It just wasn't that.

52:49Oti: Yeah. It just tarnished the movie for me and I was I was eager to see how this would play out. I was eager to either see some sort of comeuppance or Luce just going to a different level altogether And we got neither. I just don't know. Like, yes, it's been adopted from a play.

53:11KT: Yeah. But But surely the play didn't end like that. Surely not. Anything That's literally where Rotten Tomatoes

53:18Oti: And even if it did, you as a screenwriter, you have the responsibility to adapt it, to make it better. You know? You shouldn't just be constrained to something else that someone did. And if that's the ending then sucked, then do something else.

53:38KT: Right? And it's like creative freedom.

53:40Oti: Isn't that what people cry for all the time?

53:43KT: Right. This was also distributed by a company called Neon. They did collaborate together with Blumhouse, not necessarily in this movie. But just to give a bit of a tasting of what Neon has done, I think the most notable one that I found in the list was I, Tonya. I, Tonya was great. Yeah. Why aren't we talking about that? We're talking about this movie. But, you know, you have smaller sort of production houses and, you know, Blumhouse is a that's for chef kisses including my toes if you nest it. You know, Blumhouse has a very,

54:20KT: very effective model of allowing creatives, you know, a small sort of budget and being able to deliver astronomical payoff. So, you know, there's no excuse, like, whether you're a massive, like, Paramount or if you're like Blumhouse. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, there are ways that you can tell your story no matter how hard or no matter how easy it is to convey it. True. True. I

54:50KT: don't know how to finish this episode, and I feel like that is true to this film. If we just stop if if we just pressed stop recording now Just stopped.

55:00Oti: I think that's that's all pretty much what the directors did in this. Were you at the point of climax? Well, so were we.

55:09KT: And just and just end it and it's done. But, you know, just just generally going back to this, it was very interesting. And the fact that they were bold, you know, because, you know, in this day and age, it's hard to take a stance on anything. Right? To be that bold, to make some sort of, you know, not even definitive, but to make some sort of stance in regards to these hard sort of issues about immigration or, you know, being black in America. To be that bold, it it it didn't make sense

55:43KT: that they didn't have the follow through. Yeah. And I think as a crux, that was the foundational qualm that I had with this film. Yeah. Agreed.

55:52Oti: Agreed.

55:52KT: Do you regret the time that we spent on this?

55:52Oti: I do regret the time we spent on this just because it didn't come to any sort of fruition.

55:52KT: I do too and it's a shame.

55:52Oti: Yeah. Because I was really enjoying it. Like there's no point stroking me and then leaving and then I won't remember that session as pleasurable.

56:11Oti: I'll be like, what the fuck? So

56:11KT: You guys, it's called edging and he fucking loves it. So

56:20Oti: just this movie was like far out. It it was really a disappointment.

56:20KT: You'll have to wait for our

56:27KT: reference stockings to hear what we actually rate this film. But, you know, from from this discussion, hopefully, you guys got something out of this. If you felt very similarly to us, please let us know. Or if you actually enjoyed it and you think we're dead wrong, feel free to come and fight us. We love a good fight. Yeah. Unlike this film, we will see you through until completion in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

56:57Oti: Just because this movie gave me vibes of psychological thriller, I would like to reference Seven. Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman. Bloody hell. If you wanna be taken for a ride, if you wanna go through a serial killer's mind, if you want to explore the seven deadly sins, this movie is for you. It's beautifully directed, written, casted, and produced. It's timeless. You'd feel like you're like you could watch it any single time. Its rewatchability value is next to none. And by god, Woodhouse, it's a good movie.

57:36KT: And that's a great Archer reference. I will continue the Freeman family reunion and reference Sherlock. Mhmm. I'm assuming Martin Freeman and Morgan Freeman are related just by the last name. And also Benedict Cumberbatch as we all know and love in all of the ages that will exist forever. I will also like to reference Gone Girl because I also noticed that they took Tim Roth out and used actual footage of Ben Affleck in the shower. And it also builds to the thriller and the intrigue and, you know, essentially, the main character being a psycho. Yeah.

58:22KT: So those are our references, Thank you so much for tuning in for yet another week in the For Reference household. We might be dysfunctional, but we fucking love you. Yeah. We do. If you wanna come and find us on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

58:41Oti: Oh, so smooth.

58:42KT: Mhmm. And you know what else so smooth? What is? A five star Apple rating and review. If you'll be so kind, it's completely up to you. We love you so much, guys, and have a great week. Bye bye. See you.