The Game – Tailored Torture

Full transcript of The Game – Tailored Torture.

0:01KT: Welcome back. We are starting off with Unguess Me and Oti has the question.

0:06Oti: Between Michael and Conrad, who did you prefer? Three, two, one. Conrad.

0:16KT: Well, let us jack Polantz to the music, Conrads, and get on with the show. Howdy howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, Katie. And Oti. And prepare to question everything and everyone as we search for major key alert in nineteen ninety seven's The Game This Week.

1:03Oti: It's good you preferenced 1997.

1:05KT: I was going to go with a Tia Mowry joke in there.

1:05Oti: Well, you had a chance not to make that reference again, but I guess it was purposeful and that's what you wanted to keep in. Mhmm.

1:05KT: Usually, this is the portion in the episode where I exclaim my, hoo. Oti, feel free to reverse that because that is opposite of how I feel. Oh, wow. Wow, indeed. Let's get into the stats, which is what we do around here. This is a 1997 joint, if you wanna call it out of David Fincher.

1:36KT: I don't mean for anyone to come after me, especially because I have hardly any credits in the TV and movie realm. But just looking at Fincher's known for, I haven't seen Seven. Yes. I know. I haven't seen Zodiac. I didn't like Social Network and Gone Girl was okay, but I'm not sure if it has value after the first initial shock of a watch.

1:36Oti: Gone Girl was a good movie.

1:36KT: Well, we thought it was a cute like sort of date night movie and it turned out to be opposite. Not even Ben Affleck's could save that film

2:11KT: in any regard we have writers of John Brancato and Michael Ferris stars of the Michael Douglas some may say it might be his best performance I guess we'll see Deborah Kara Unger and the Sean Penn not a Penn the Penn oh the Penn and the only Penn

2:27Oti: oh my

2:31KT: box office we have a budget Oti of $50,000,000.

2:36Oti: Oh, how much did it rake in?

2:40KT: A worldwide gross of a $109,400,000. Nice. Is it though? It's barely over half. But still a profit me. Yeah. But I I did tweet that we were watching this. I also tweeted after we finished watching it, and a lot of people came to defend it. Mhmm. So I don't know if that falls into the realms of cult classic, but I think the people that are holding the banner for this film are holding it fervently. That's a shout out to our Paul from Film Busters because apparently it's a 10 out of 10 in his eyes. Wow.

3:12KT: Bold claim. That is the biggest fucking puzzle I think. So let's dive into our first impressions, Oti. How did you feel watching this? Was it your first time watching it? Also, is the opportunity to say spoiler spoiler spoiler, and in this case, non splooshes, non splooshes, non splooshes because we are definitely going to get straight in straight deep with some lubrication perhaps of enjoyment maybe not so tell us tell us how you felt about it how you felt of the overall

3:47KT: cat and mouse and what we were working towards and was it worth it?

3:47Oti: This is my first time watching it

3:47KT: that's interesting because you usually it's usually that you have watched something that's popular as opposed to not

3:47Oti: Yeah. So this one just somehow slipped under the radar. And watching it, I felt

4:05Oti: as if we're gearing towards an amazing, amazing crescendo. Mhmm. And it we just couldn't get there. We just couldn't get there for some bloody reason. And I'll the first three quarters of the movie had me. Okay. I can't deny it. It was great. It was titillating. I was hooked. I wondered what the spin would be. I tried figuring out what the puzzles mean. Mhmm. And just getting into the thrill of it all. Mhmm. And then the last quarter happened. Yeah. Did it?

4:37Oti: It was all a dream. Yeah. Pretty much. Pretty much. Biggest stuff there. And I thought, cool. Why destroy everything you've set up with that? Yeah. It it it made me feel even more angrier than I would if they just finished it fifteen minutes earlier. If they finished it fifteen minutes earlier, I would have been super happy. Yeah. And then they just ruined it. Just fucking poor writing.

4:37KT: I think they were trying to go for the double plot twist.

4:37Oti: That doesn't work, man.

4:37KT: It does in some cases. I don't know. Maybe this was a time in cinema where you had you know, it it all hinged on that.

4:37Oti: It's like the classic Scooby-Doo. Oh my. Pull out the first mask and you're like, I can't believe it's captain

5:17Oti: Jack or some shit. And then you pull out the second mask and it's, oh, it's our little old friend who works in accounting.

5:17KT: Well, if you'll pardon my cheekiness, I would say it's more of a Scrappy-Doo than a Scooby-Doo.

5:29KT: That motherfucker was really annoying. Mhmm. Thank you for that Oti. Is that all of your capsulations and your first impressions?

5:29Oti: Yes, it is.

5:29KT: Okay. I, you know, I I I don't care for, you know, I've mentioned, like, big sort of action films, and I wouldn't necessarily say that it's this film either. But I guess just to give a grounding, like, I don't care for large scale sort of things, like, that doesn't really get me off. So it doesn't really bother me if we're staying pretty insular to the world that's introduced to us.

6:04KT: I'd never really latched on emotionally to Nicholas's character, which isn't necessarily a bad thing because we can't have antiheroes. But there was something very unlikable about him. And, you know, we've talked about spoilers. You know, if you haven't done your homework, then feel free to get spoiled in the most delicious of places. But you know when we work up to

6:27KT: the ending people were making well even throughout the whole movie but particularly at his 40 birthday people were making comments about how he's a dick and he kind of deserved it in in in less or so sort of words. So it makes me wonder what kind of man Nicholas was. Not to say that a man of morality is someone to be praised. Oh my. That is a sound bite. That's going to come back and bite me.

6:51KT: But I just I didn't care for him, but I was definitely following through on the story and the misadventures in this case that Nicholas was going through. But whenever there were emotions of, like, heightened sort of intrigue, it didn't really grab me in the way that I think it was supposed to.

7:05Oti: And you know what was even more surprising to me since you've brought up the ending Uh-huh. Is Nicholas's behavior to that because I do not fully believe he went through enough character development to warrant that sort of reaction at the end.

7:05KT: Okay. So let's let's just, like, paint it over with some broad strokes here.

7:28KT: Nicholas is a very rich investment banker, and he's we're not really sure his brother's kind of like a free spirit he kind of comes and goes as the wind takes him right and this is an elaborate plan and it is a game of you know it's like a puzzle for Nicholas right and we know that going into the movie quite early but what we learn like you mentioned in the last quarter of the movie is it literally is a game you know there's the turning of the coin of maybe this is something deeper

8:02KT: you know, we are anonymous, you know, out to get you, but it really is all a part of the elaborate plan. And I think what you're saying is it gets to the point where Nicholas thinks that he shot Conrad because

8:16KT: he didn't believe that it was a surprise party. But to be fair, these fucking people were bullying him. So how was he to believe what was true, what was true? Mhmm. Right? So in any case, he he he felt like he actually killed his brother. And I think what you were saying was he was so overcome with emotion, that's when he jumped off the building. Right? Mhmm. So are you saying that that felt out of place?

8:38Oti: No. His response to after him being saved with him.

8:38KT: Oh, yes. Okay.

8:38Oti: So after all that, having the shock or the horror that you've shot your brother Yeah. You've then done the same thing that's been torturing you, the same thing that your father did. Yeah. And then you get down there, you realize every single person in your life Mhmm. Extended or otherwise was in on it watching you grovel. Yeah. Like, there are aspects in this movie where he was in literal danger. Yeah. Absolutely.

9:11Oti: I don't know. It just and and then he just brushed it off as, oh, I can't believe it. And then he just laughs it off as if, oh, you got me real good, man. Like, it's just a normal day. Oh, this prank was world class.

9:25KT: And then, like, Conrad got him to pay half of the fee. We've seen more visceral reactions to Ashton fucking Kutcher Wow. On Punk'd.

9:31Oti: Oh my. To someone who's gone to this fucking degree of torture to just respond as if, hey, No. I I didn't I would not forgive any single one of them. I would have gotten a fucking machete and just hacked everyone or some shit. I don't know.

9:31KT: Oh, the next Machete franchise starring Oti. Yeah. Make sure you go and listen to our Chucky episode. We get some very

9:55KT: appointed and very interesting, if you'll pardon the pun, references to Oti and machetes. Mhmm. I definitely agree with you. It kind of yeah. It was, like, so much emotional trauma, and it's a lull joke at the end, and we're all giggle gaggling over the most expensive champagne. Like, I don't know, and I don't think, and I don't aspire to ever be that rich. But surely, at some point, there are emotions that still exist.

10:23Oti: Emotions he had. He was taken from fucking trying to kill himself. Yeah. And then that's all erased with a tissue.

10:29KT: And everyone's all giggling in the ballroom. No, man. Like, that absolutely made no sense. It cheapened the experience. And, you know, it's funny that at the start in Unguess Me, we both said Conrad. We both even knowing, you know, everything that went down and we'll talk about, like, all of the puzzles that they have in the film. But in particular, there was some very personal information that only Conrad would have known that he injected to this tailored sort of puzzle.

11:03Oti: So it Tailored goes torture is what I'd call it.

11:03KT: Tailored torture. Oti Whannell in the house. Woo hoo. But I just, like I don't know because, you know, you you you immerse yourself in a film and you know that it's not reality, at least not our reality, and you can kind of suspend some sort of belief. But then you get to a point where what was all the suffering for? Like, if it was, you know, these people are super

11:30KT: you know, they're con artists, and they're trying to drain I think what they said, $60,000,000 worth.

11:35Oti: 600,000,000.

11:37KT: Jesus Christ. Oh my. That would I would slap my mama and never live again. We're heading towards Tres Comas Club here. Tres Comas. Listen to our Silicon Valley episode. But interesting because at least if it had stayed on that path, it would have felt like Nicholas' suffering, we were working towards something as opposed to them just completely taking it back. Like, not even M. Night Shyamalan would do that to us, I don't think.

11:37Oti: No. This is very M. Night Shyamalan territory.

12:06Oti: I think even was.

12:09KT: How dare you?

12:11Oti: I feel like M. Night Shyamalan would pull an even worse reveal at the end of it all, so let's not go there. But this just infuriated me because it cheapened the whole experience we've had up until that point Mhmm. Where every emotion, every sort of feeling, anger, acceptance, infuriation that you had Mhmm. Simply got swept under the feet as if it just didn't matter. Yeah. Just prank. I don't

12:40Oti: like I said, I just had qualms with that. And I felt like if from what we've seen of Michael up until that point Yeah. Nowhere in his demeanor Yeah. Did it state that he'd respond to that like that. Absolutely. Especially him going through such a tailored traumatizing time.

12:58KT: Unless he was still in shock on some level. I think that's the only thing that

12:58Oti: He was well enough to go and chase off Christine.

12:58KT: Yeah. But I think that's the power of the poofy ethic. Oh, man. I don't know. Before we dive into the character and the particular puzzles, what I will say to wrap up first impressions is, you know, more and more as much as I am a logical person, I'm starting to realize that if I'm latched on like Avatar sexual tentacles latched on emotionally

13:28KT: to a film, sometimes I can forgive things that don't make sense as long as it isn't the foundational reasoning of the film. Right? So I I can be you know quite lenient in that regard but also something that I find hard to give graces for is if something starts off very strong and it fails to deliver that makes me more mad than a film that doesn't raise my expectations at the start that pretty much remains the same sort of feeling but at least it's not trying to be anything other than what it is and

14:03KT: this fell into the former right it started off very strong and I was saying to you today like even in 2020 it's very rare to have this concept for a TV show or for a movie like we have our Black Mirrors we have our Inside No. 9 our Twilight Zone, but a specifically tailored puzzle game that only you can solve that is specific to your experience and apparently satisfaction. Right? And it's an like I mentioned to you, it's an open world escape room. I love the idea of that. I think that's fucking fascinating

14:34KT: right but then to continue to meander in what we thought it was going to be and completely turn it on its head because why it really frustrated because twist on twist is a thing well if your Kriegers nips yes

14:51KT: so we've kind of already talked about Nicholas and Conrad I I do want to focus a bit more on their childhood because even the opening of the movie it shows Polaroid sort of footage denoting to us that these are memories that Nicholas had we also saw footage that Nicholas witnessed his father committing suicide at the age of 48 so that's a whole another morbid layer that we're adding on to there as well and from what we understand Conrad was too young to understand or to to at least to be emotionally

15:24KT: jarred to the effect that Nicholas has but they've definitely had a troubled past I would say and it does seem like they were quite wealthy but we do see Nicholas come into his own as a man we have Ilsa who

15:40KT: isn't only you know someone that tends to the house but seems to be like an emotional support.

15:40Oti: Yeah she's been there through the whole childhood so it makes sense.

15:40KT: Yeah and then we also have the ex wife as well and you know it was never really communicated I would imagine it would have to do with communication and emotional vulnerability, but that's my unqualified

16:01Oti: And just Nicholas being a dick, pretty much.

16:01KT: Well, yeah. We're not the Nicholas fan club. That's quite clear.

16:01Oti: No. Because they set the tone pretty early. Like, we have a secretary come in and said, you've got a missed call from Elizabeth. And then she quickly says, your ex wife. Meaning that this guy is so dev is so fucking far removed from his emotions

16:20Oti: or he's demeaning this sort of coldness that people would think or assume at some point that he didn't really give a shit about anyone.

16:20KT: Yeah. But I I don't think that's fair, especially because there's nothing for us to go on. So to say that because he's divorced, he's, you know, not a great guy. I I think I think

16:20Oti: No. It's the things around him, his interactions with people, and how people behaved around him that made the sense that he's not really the best guy to be around. So it's kind of the easiest guy to be around.

16:50KT: It's kind of like Power's creator, not 50 Cent, Courtney A. Kemp referring to Ghost as having the reverse Midas touch. So Nicholas kind of has that like everything he touches turns to ash yeah yeah maybe emotionally yeah hey I'll take whatever points I can

17:05KT: Conrad seems like not not necessarily that nothing bothers him but we didn't get a lot of dimension in regards to Conrad. So I guess it would be it would be like Archer when he was Randy. No. He seemed like a typical trust fund baby. You reckon? Yeah. He seemed like in Succession, you have the old the first pancake.

17:25Oti: But he's not the first pancake Nicholas is. No. He behaved like that, you know, without any sort of just detached from every sort of responsibilities.

17:33KT: You just knew he wasn't gonna be the one taking over. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. But he definitely has a brighter disposition than Nicholas. He doesn't have that weight of responsibility. And

17:44KT: it would be interesting to see what their relationship was even leading up to this point because it seems like given the nature of the two of them, they never would have really had a deep meaningful sort of, like, relationship. Right?

17:44Oti: No. I think it's more of the familial, oh, I see you once a year or some shit like that. Mhmm. Nothing really what we shown to illustrate that they were close to each other because at this point when they met in the restaurant it's been some time before they saw each other to the point where they he didn't even know the divorce with Elizabeth so yeah you could tell that they don't really talk about everything

17:44KT: yeah but we've mentioned I don't think Nicholas is emotionally forthright yeah okay so let's let's get to I guess what makes this film

18:30KT: so interesting and I guess you can also say is the detriment to this film as well. Let's talk about the puzzle. So we're talking about CRS. So it looks as though CRS actually exists Mhmm. As an entity, as a company. Whether it is as malicious and as far spread as was mentioned through the movie I don't necessarily think so I think everyone was playing to a role if you'll pardon the pun but at the same time I don't think they're draining people's bank accounts I think that it's more of a

19:04KT: again an open world escape room yeah so we have Conrad introducing the ideas like have fun don't you want to have fun it's a concept called fun and you know much to the reluctance Nicholas does go and visit the 14th Floor and he takes the tests. The tests are very interesting sort of questions. Definitely digs deeper than the Myers-Briggs tests. Mhmm. And he goes through a physical exam as well, and they're getting all of these sorts of details.

19:34KT: Again I don't necessarily think that contributed towards a tailored plan I think they got a lot of it out of Conrad it was more like to go through the process to legitimize what was about to happen yeah and actually this is a question that I have for you so we had the lady at reception deliver the same message that we see when Nicholas first walks into the office she's essentially rejecting someone yep and she does the same thing to Nicholas and then that's when we start to see the game commence

20:03KT: my question to you is do you think that that was part of the strategy

20:03Oti: yeah that's definitely part of the strategy we see that CRS is

20:12Oti: massive they've had I think pretty much everyone in the scene was connected to CRS

20:19Oti: to some degree. Yeah. To the point where they'd go to a building, coppers they're called coppers and all, but no one CRS will be like, oh, no one's been here for fourteen days. But there was full construction or whatever work going on. Yeah. They had this massive billboard or poster on the on the Ground Floor, which if if you ask anyone in the building for any competent detective, it'll be like, yeah. There are people there, and they left. Not that, oh, we've not seen anyone here for two weeks. And that's one of the first red flags that I got. Was like, that's

20:50Oti: strange. Yeah. And further on, it's like this, you know, sort of little morsels that you're given, and it keeps you hooked because you're trying to solve it in the back of your head and trying to figure out what the storyline will be. Yeah. So when he when he gets home, he there's this clown on the road. Yeah. Right? And And there's flashbacks to the dad killing himself. So it's been laid out in a position like how he the dad had fallen. Yeah. And it triggers all these emotions in Nicholas Mhmm. And you start to feel for him. Yeah. I'm like, shit, man. If I see that, I'm running away. Yeah. Because I was started wondering what kind of things he answered in the questions before Uh-huh. To get this sort of test in the first place. Mhmm. So it was intriguing the fact that he took it back home and then he saw the key from the mouth. I was like, oh, okay. Hold to I didn't know what the key would mean. Yeah. And I was intrigued. Mhmm. But then when the TV started sort of Glitching. Glitching and turning it to live instructional

21:46Oti: Jigsaw sort of tape.

21:48KT: And in 1997, it would have been hard to intercept that. Like, we're not in the world of deep fakes yet in 1997.

21:55Oti: No. It's not exactly Person of Interest level of technology here.

21:55KT: Okay. Thanks, Finch.

21:55Oti: You're welcome.

22:02KT: I did appreciate, you know, how visceral that experience would have been because it's not it's not as if people are hacking your Wi Fi systems or anything. Right? So to have a newscaster that, you know, everyone seems to know and love in their households every evening, you know, directly calling you out, bro. See you in the ring, brother. It was a very interesting experience. And to have the camera monitoring him as well also added, you know, that extra level of surveillance and invasion of privacy

22:35KT: as well. And it really kicks off the movie in a very interesting way. You know, it really latches you in. Okay. Who knows enough aside from the brother, I guess that that that's where the bottom falls out. But who knows enough to be able to tailor this specifically to Nicholas's experiences and we have that key and that's when the instructions are given to him, keys will continue to be given to you, you need to keep your eyes open

23:03KT: right so it's a very interesting and I really appreciate the way that the tone is set for the movie we're in for a thriller, we're in for a wild ride One of the next sort of notable experiences we have is at the airport. Yeah. And Nicholas is at the gate and he he's starting to look around and take a note of everything that's going on. There's a guy that's sitting right next to him on the couch. He gets up, and he sees some sort of clown symbol. Yeah. Right?

23:36KT: And you're like, oh, fuck. I might have missed that. Right? So but then a lady comes along, and it's actually a rattle for a kid. Can we question the mother? Who kinda who gets a rattle like that for their child? Unless you've got Pennywise in your stroller, I'm not sure why you would get why you would get that for your child. So we have that moment and then Nicholas is staring opposite him and the guy continues to look at him very bemused and we find out that his pen is leaking

24:09KT: I guess rich people don't even know what a pocket protector is so

24:13Oti: much for having 600,000,000 in the bank mate can't even buy a fucking pocket protector

24:20KT: hey if that's the one gotcha you have for the rich people, then good for you, Oti. Yep. So Nicholas goes to the bathroom, and I think this is a very interesting sort of sequence because, you know, a lot of the time people can draw meaning out of things, but it means absolutely nothing or it could mean absolutely everything. Right? So in this particular moment, he's trying to, you know, clean the ink off of his pocket and there is a fella that's in a stall asking for some toilet paper very 2020 very topical but

24:56KT: Nicholas kind of just leaves and he doesn't help yeah I think it's more than that. I think because we see later when he meets Anson Baer, he couldn't open the briefcase. And I think that if he were to help the guy, not necessarily with the toilet paper, but there would have been something in that stall when he was going to retrieve the toilet paper that would have given him that key for the briefcase. Thoughts? Interesting.

25:23Oti: Because he gets to open the briefcase once he gets to the hotel.

25:27KT: Yes. So So he never opened it himself? Fair enough. Maybe.

25:32Oti: I didn't even think about it like that. So it's interesting that you have that trail of thought. I just thought that it just it was just meant to show more Nicholas's demeanor, and it pulled me back to the questions that he was being asked in the test. Like, if you saw Oh, okay. Okay. If you saw someone who was hit by the side of the road or some shit like that, would you help? I was like, oh, yeah. So he wouldn't. He's Nicholas. He'll just That was more of a character I thought so. Reference. I thought so.

26:03KT: Okay. I I I definitely think it was because of the it was the key for the suitcase.

26:07Oti: Because I didn't think the keys the keys are only meant to be reactive rather than proactive. Reactive in a in a sense that he's already been put in a situation where he needs to use the key, whether it's in the elevator or it's him trying to

26:07KT: So it wasn't for his day to day work stuff?

26:07Oti: It wasn't for his it wasn't for him to try and beat the game. Maybe it for him. No. But even the suitcase for Anson Baer, that was more of a I guess you could call it a morality thing. I think the game was not created to be beaten and the keys were merely ways

26:38Oti: for him to respond in a certain situation to help himself progress to the next stage

26:41KT: so what are we saying is this Michael from Prison Break like who is this super master genius that is accounting for every variable?

26:50Oti: I assumed it was a guy who who noted to him that he had a leak. I thought that was the mastermind.

26:55KT: Yeah. I suppose, but it was more a jest in the direction of being able to account for everything. Yeah. Maybe so. Maybe so. But okay. So so let's move on. We go to Anson Baer. He's not able to open the briefcase. So you don't think this puzzle or this GIF was for him to reflect on him as a person? No. Because there was that at least from Anson, initially, his reaction was I've known you since you were a kid how fucking dare you right and also Nicholas makes a very interesting remark or retort

27:29KT: where he's like what so out of sentiment I'm supposed to lose millions of dollars

27:35Oti: True true. Which is interesting because I think that was one of the moments where they'll they'll just try to show us his character. Okay. He cares little for friendship or loyalty. Mhmm. It's all about the bottom line for him. Does it make financial sense? Yes or no. If no, then you drop it.

27:35KT: But is there anything wrong with that?

27:35Oti: There's nothing wrong with that, but it just comes off as cold. And I wouldn't necessarily say fictitious because Anson is someone that's been in the family and a friend of the dad since probably day one and for him to just come and dismiss him like that and to the end he comes and apologizes to be fair to him of how he treated him but it just it was more to make it all he might be going all through all these ordeals

28:19Oti: but don't feel so too sorry for him because he's still a bit of a piece of shit.

28:28KT: Alright. Fair enough. Again, I didn't latch on to Nicholas so I will agree with that or it could be as simple as him just not having the key to the suitcase but you know our bias bends in that direction let's speaking of the elevator that went in no direction I think this is the first time we're introduced to Christine as a character so before the elevator scene Nicholas is supposed to be having dinner with Conrad and then we have Christine spilling drinks on him apparently he had already she had already done it a week before and she gets fired yeah you

28:58KT: had words Oti because you we acknowledge that this was the second time she had this incident. You had words, you had opinions about the way she spoke to Nicholas and about the way she spoke to the maitre d', her boss.

29:12Oti: I was like, if you work in hospitality, mate, you can't say such stuff. Yeah. You take it in the chin, you apologize, the customer is always fucking right, and you move on. Yeah. But she had words. She she walked in the wrong side of the bed. Little did we know she was part of the game, and I was like, at this point, I was still seeing her through the veneer of an innocent waitress

29:31Oti: trying to make ends meet. Yeah. I was like, cool. I get your struggle. I get you have, like, two other jobs or you've been let go of. Yeah. But you can't treat people like that. I don't expect to have consequences for your action.

29:49KT: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, it it becomes inconsequential once we find the bigger picture of the movie, but it was definitely a moment for pause.

29:54Oti: Yeah that was a moment where I was like I'm not sure that I'd take to Christine as a character and try and root for her in any way because she didn't come off as sincere and all but then she became like a whole big part of the movie

30:08KT: as well so we meet them in the elevator the phone isn't connected or it just isn't there and eventually Nicholas uses the key that he received the first key from the clown into the elevator to get it to operate yeah first of all I was just wondering why they weren't using the fire stairs they could have just used the fire stairs easily because when the elevator stopped working on the 14th Floor they ended up going down the fire stairs anyway but you know far be it for me to be that petty right

30:39KT: when she said that she had no panties and he should go first I think it was more she was trying to get him to control the situation thoughts?

30:48Oti: Wow. I just thought she didn't have any panties.

30:51KT: Sometimes it's that simple. But this is a PSA from KT in the For Your Reference podcast in 2020. I think my mind just went back to Basic Instinct. Was like, yeah. Moving to my brag ideas. About I don't know why people brag about Commando. Unless you're going straight from a to b, you need to protect your privates. Don't be sitting on public seats and public toilets. Well, you're not been sitting in public toilets with your pants on anyway. It's a pussy PSA.

31:18Oti: Oh, wow.

31:19KT: And that's how I misdirect Oti. Okay. So we eventually make our way to Level 14 where CRS headquarters are. So from the time he took the test to now, that still exists okay later on in the movie there is that you know pull from under the rug let's go with that well it's been a long winter so going back to commando you're pulling under my rug so they're back at CRS and Nicholas makes note of

31:51KT: how he's been there already let's just wait for the authorities to come and I guess if you've got your cogs turning this is where you start to evaluate Christine as a character because of instead of just staying there which there would have been no consequence for she says that they should leave and run which makes no fucking sense but in any case they run they make their way down an alleyway

32:13KT: Halle Berry from John Wick brings her German Shepherds out Yeah. So we have a reference that's made by Feingold earlier in the movie, and they seem to find themselves there. So everything is really working meticulously together. I'm not sure if they accounted for other variables, but that's not something that's within the scope of the movie. Mhmm. Right? So after Nicholas and Christine get out, they make their way back to Nicholas's office, and that's where, I guess, the only pertinent information like Oti's basic instincts

32:45KT: is the red bra that Christine is wearing because we see that in the polaroids which I identified earlier on right so what falls into that in the puzzle is the hotel room where we have all the polaroids and the sex tape that is playing in the background. Mhmm. Do you think it was like body doubles?

32:58Oti: I thought it was because Nicholas didn't have any memory of being there. Because I remember We had a strict timeline of where Nicholas was during the night and he was nowhere near that hotel So definitely was all doubles. And even if it was a double, every employee

33:19Oti: or anyone we saw was part of the company, was part of the game. So the receptionist saying, oh, yes. I saw you last night, and here's your card. You know? It's it all just made sense at the end of it all.

33:19KT: So, you know, the hole keeps getting dug for Nicholas and this game, and he's starting to feel very shut in on where he is and the options that he has. And

33:44KT: that's where we have him calling his lawyer and them going to confront Anson Baer, where, you know, Nicholas is convinced, I guess, because he's not looking beyond the scope of his world, that Anson was at the hands of this because of how badly, you know, everything soured in their last meeting only to find out that Anson and Sutherland already had an agreement, and he was happy, and he was gonna go sailing. So you know he's becoming very more unhinged as the movie continues

34:15KT: and I guess let's just move on to the next example we have the taxi driver with the window crank

34:27Oti: oh that's what this aim threw me for a loop man yeah like this that ceased to be low risk stuff oh absolutely and the fact that he had the window crank I was like yeah we saw it earlier we knew oil was there for and I told you that's for definitely when it's trapped in the car.

34:27KT: Didn't Oil said it was for a window, but I'll give you that. I'll give you those points. Yeah. Points to Oti Gryffindor.

34:27Oti: And then when it happened, I didn't know it will be that extreme. You know? They went leaps and bounds to make this super realistic, super scary.

34:57Oti: And at that point, I think I lost sight of what the movie title was, of what this was. And I was like, okay. This guy's in danger. Time to play the game. Exactly. Bring h h h in here and kill everyone.

35:14KT: But I think this goes back to what you were saying earlier was it became a life or death situation.

35:21Oti: And was that really the brief that Conrad gave to the CRS? Because surely not. Apparently, they had calculated everything, and everyone was super safe. When Christine was Christine was panicking at the end, she like, oh, the window, we had people waiting on the side in case you couldn't get out. It was like bullshit.

35:40KT: Yeah. Bull fucking shit. Like, how much is their insurance as a company? That's a lot of liability you've got under your belt. Yeah. It just I think the fact that everything was so vast, everything seemed to be a possibility, the fact that they could account for all of those possibilities, it kind of became a bit more far fetched. Yeah. And maybe it's just because I wasn't already a 100% in the pews

36:06KT: of Nicholas Van Orton. Maybe if I had been waiting in his water, I would have cared a lot more. But, yeah, it it got me to start to question a lot of what was going on around us.

36:06Oti: Yeah. That scene just took me outside of the movie, and I was like, oh my god. This is not the shade has gotten real. Yeah. But the placard was Tommy Flanagan from Sons of Anarchy, mate.

36:06KT: Wow. That's a reference. Look at you. Mhmm. You should start a podcast, Oti.

36:06Oti: Oh, for sure.

36:06KT: But, yeah, I think that

36:36KT: puzzle in particular definitely separated what felt like you know a puzzle and became a life or death situation and that's where the desperacy of Nicholas character comes into play as well yeah because I guess if we're going to move all the way near the end of the film you know Christine kind of becomes

36:56KT: the guide for him which I never really understood like I I got that you know when they're in the car and he tried to drive off and then he reversed back because she said that she was the only one that could tell him what the truth is because at that point, you know, he wasn't talking to Conrad and, you know, he's trying to contact all of his banks to see the investments right at that point I told you that I didn't trust her yeah and you were like nah no

37:24KT: Oti and I both being in IT you were still believing Christine again the power of the pussy PSA and I was like nah Surely, they've if they were able to, like, dupe detectives on the information about the building or at least if they were in on it, then surely they had connections to somehow find a way to, you know, pull the wool over his eyes just that one last time in regards to his bank accounts. Yeah. And, you know, as much as I love my life savings of $3, I know it's not 600,000,000. That would bring a even more heightened level of desperacy.

37:59Oti: Oh, for sure. Yeah. You you really doubted her. And the fact that he revealed the password to his bank account Are you dumb? I saw I saw the look in her face, and I was like, surely not. Surely not. But it's like if if the people or CRS and if Sutherland, your lawyer, that you've known for how many fucking years, you idiot,

38:22KT: but if he happened to know the password, why would you repeat it again? Why would you share that information again? Yeah. Fool me once. Shame on you. Agreed. Agreed.

38:32Oti: I just didn't I didn't want to believe that Christine was part of it. Just so that we could have one decent person in the show. Well, I guess Conrad's the most decent, and that says a lot because he's fucking terrible.

38:43KT: I do wanna read this very interesting IMDb trivia.

38:48KT: Despite its success in the box office and cult following, so that's success after the box office because we saw it wasn't as good in the box office, David Fincher admitted in interviews he's not proud of the film. Good. When speaking to his wife who also produced the film, he never should have made it, citing that they couldn't get the third act. And it was my fault because I thought if you could just keep your foot on the throttle, it would be liberating and funny. I have no idea where the funny aspect of it comes from. There is nothing funny about Mindhunter but we still love it. Yeah it doesn't need to be fucking funny. And they're like as much as people say comedy is easier than drama

39:27KT: they're different skill sets. Left brain, right brain stuff, mate. But I don't think anything was funny in this film, so I don't understand I don't understand going full gung ho trying to make it liberating and funny would have done for this film.

39:42Oti: And you know what my qualm was as well? Foundational qualms if you nasty. When he starts to confront CRS Yep. And goes into the building Uh-huh. Kid's not the actor guy goes through everyone Yep. To reach the top and to find Christine, and she managed to chase up to the top of the roof and block it. Yeah. Why not just put a bullet in her after everything he's been through? His state of mind would have been so far gone at that point. I just hated how fucking topsy-turvy it was.

40:09KT: First of all, it was a game, then it didn't become a game, and then he was on the run, and then he somehow had a gun that they weren't aware of, but we've later found out that Conrad must have known that that was a gun Mhmm. Because even that gun didn't kill Conrad. It was blank. Yep. Everything was a deception. Mhmm. Which cool, I guess. Garbage collection is tomorrow, so I'll make sure to put Conrad out on the street. But wow.

40:39KT: Where do where is our anchorage, mate? Like, what what are we working towards? And with all of this deception, again, like you said earlier in the episode, Nicholas was like, yeah. Cool. Also Let's do it again next year.

40:39Oti: They had a lot of faith in where he would shoot in directly in the middle.

40:58Oti: Not to the side, just straight down the middle and exactly where he jumped off the building from. Mhmm. Anywhere to the side, he veers off and he's dead. Yeah. Dang, well, how do you explain that shit? What if it was a windy night?

41:12KT: It's like that Netflix documentary or at least it's now on Netflix, Unsolved Mysteries. And I think it was the first episode, and they were trying to calculate how the man was able to jump into a very succinct circle of of in the roof. Exactly.

41:28Oti: It was that level of ridiculousness.

41:30KT: Because how do you negate negate where the person would exactly shoot and jump? Especially because Feingold later on when they were giggle gaggling over their expensive champagne said, if you weren't gonna do it, I was gonna push you off. What fucking cockamamie scheme was this? Am I the first person to say cockamamie in 2020? No. It's just now you and cutty bait. Misery is a much better film. Yeah. It just it felt very disjointed. Like, did we wanna stay in the realms of a cat and mouse game?

42:05KT: Did we want to further the emotional trauma of our older brother?

42:10Oti: Or, you know, is this the most elaborate thing rich people do at dinner parties? Who knows? It just felt really Hanna-Barbera. You know? Oh, wow. It just it just felt Hanna-Barbera, and it cheapened the whole experience for me. Oddi dabba doo. Yeah.

42:27KT: It's it it just felt very disjointed, and I guess I would prefer at a Succession Boar on the Floor. Oh, yeah. Any day, every day. As degrading as it was, at least that sort of punishment makes sense to me. Yeah. I I I guess at the end of the day, we were working towards something, and I'm still incredulous at the fact that that's what we were working towards. Mhmm. Why go through all the effort of, like, putting oil paints to graffiti his house just to do this?

42:57KT: Like, so much detail was put into this customized intricate game for him. For what?

43:02Oti: And for some second, I thought a game gone bad sort of movie is something good. I would have probably enjoyed it more. Yeah. A game gone to this extent is just fucking ridiculous.

43:18KT: But at least our Jigsaw had distorted, but he still had some sense of morality, and he felt like he was teaching people a lesson. And he's doing this to strangers. I would prefer him over having Conrad as a brother. Oh, for sure. His brother is crap for orchestrating such a thing. Like, how do you treat people that are your nemesis? That's someone you love, apparently. Yeah.

43:38Oti: And to walk out of that hugging everyone, congratulating everyone, having a sense of relief, maybe that's all over and it's a joke, but I would be mad as hell. Oh, absolutely. And I don't even think Christine would have lived if I was out of probably pushed off the building, to be honest. Yeah. And just gone complete rampage. Line arrest rampage.

44:01KT: Spray and pray? Spray and pray. Truckers saw arrest. I just I will always you hear that? I will always have to take an exhale whenever I think about this movie. Mhmm. Because why?

44:15Oti: Give me the torture porn any day over this, sir. Yeah. Essentially, I think the biggest qualm is that the movie had so much promise. And if it finished, if we had just stopped for whatever reason, if the power cut and the recording watched the movie or finished the movie, I would have been like, oh, wow. That was such a good movie.

44:15KT: That's a very public way to say we can't afford the bills.

44:39KT: You know what? You know, I say a lot that, you know, movies don't have to change. I just don't like it the way that it is. But I still maintain that. But I would say even if it had stopped when he was in the car and it started to unravel to him that this was a conspiracy and it's a con and they use it to siphon money out of people's bank accounts,

44:59Oti: that would have been enough for me if they had just like cut it there. Yeah. It's very rare that you get any issue with a movie where you don't really need any more writing and it's just a matter of finishing it early and just not overdoing it too much. Yeah. Absolutely. It doesn't have to be a domino effect of tricks and and and and flips and and ex machinas and whatever you wanna call it out there Yeah. Absolutely. To explain a plot or to try and explain everything away. We are fine with mystery.

45:28Oti: We are fine to be left in the fucking dark as to and to make up our own minds and to see how make up our ways on which the story ends. You know? We don't have to be fed everything. And for him to feed us every single ounce just felt nah.

45:43KT: Martha.

45:45Oti: Yeah. To the point where I'm not even angry at Martha. I'd be like, oh, cinematic

45:50KT: genius right here. Pure cinema. Pure cinema. Let me pull both of my monocles up. Pure cinema. But I think that's it, Oti. You know, we watched this yesterday, so I guess you could argue there was time to calm down, but now I'm all heated again.

46:07Oti: It'll do that to you. It'll do that to you.

46:10KT: Well, let's continue the anger or find a way to quench it in the segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

46:10Oti: Oh, I think I would stick with a David Fincher film.

46:21KT: Nice.

46:21Oti: And what are the better, better, better Oh my. Movie than Seven.

46:21KT: Nice.

46:21Oti: You just have to watch it. It's it's it's a piece of cinematic history in my opinion. Uh-huh. And it deserves a lot more recognition and accolades.

46:39KT: Nice. Good on, Oti. And I will reference the 2018 Danish film, The Guilty. Oh. Oh, continental breakfast, if you're welcome. Mhmm. I guess the reason is we watched them both over the weekend and this had a lot less theatrics in way of sets and cinematic shots, but it definitely caught my attention way more than that.

46:39Oti: For sure. A 100% agreed on that.

46:39KT: And if you would like to agree or disagree, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

47:16KT: Apple Podcasts, if you would like to leave a rating and review if you enjoyed custom made game just for you. Mhmm. And we'll see you guys next week.

47:26Oti: See you. Bye.