Joker – Don’t hurt my Pheonix

Full transcript of Joker – Don’t hurt my Pheonix.

0:00KT: Howdy. It's another week in the For Your Reference household. We are starting off with your phrase or mine, and I am the noble wordsmith this week. Well, always, but this week. Mhmm. Are you ready, Oti?

0:00Oti: Yep.

0:00KT: And it goes very well with the theme of this episode. More honored in the breach than in the observance.

0:25Oti: More honored in the breach than the observant?

0:29KT: Yes. But when you said it, it just sounded like stalling.

0:32Oti: Like you get more rewards by doing something rather than just passively watching.

0:43KT: No. This is usually thought to mean a rule which is more often broken than observed. And it's actually from Hamlet. Would you believe?

0:53Oti: Must have skipped class that day. Well, on to another tragedy.

0:57KT: Let's continue with the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You have your host, KT.

0:57Oti: And Oti.

0:57KT: And grab on to your DC standalone movie and discard any preconceived expectations you have because this week, we are diving into the 2019 Joker. Mhmm. And there is a lot to say. Even at this moment, we are fresh out of the cinema, and we're letting our panties breathe because wow. Just wow. Let's get into the stats. If you've been to For Reference before,

1:57KT: you're most welcome. Thank you for coming back. If this is your first time at For Reference, thank you kindly. We take kindly to your kind around here. And we start off with our stats. So let's just get into it. This premiered at the Venice Film Festival, August 31, where it actually won the Golden Lion. Oh, nice. Yeah. And when Todd Phillips went up on the stage, Joaquin was there him, and he actually attributed a lion to Joaquin and his characteristics, which was actually quite nice. You

2:28KT: didn't think you were going to get the depth this early, but you are most welcome. It's for your reference, guys. It for wide release, it recently debuted the October 4 in America for our Murica friends, but it most recently debuted in Australia on the October 3, Thursday, this past week. So it's a Saturday now, And we've just watched it straight off the press. Again, there is quite a lot to go through. Let's just jump into the budget. It was estimated at $55,000,000. Wow. Right?

3:02KT: In way of superhero films, because arguably this is in the genre at least of superhero, that is quite low. It is quite low. Yep. And again, it's it's barely been a handful a couple of days. Worldwide, it has grossed so far 24,600,000. If it hasn't hit, you know, the sort of grossing that DC has had for their past films, it is about to be on track to do that. Wow. That's impressive. Right? And if you guys are For Your Reference listeners, thank you for tuning in to one and or all of our episodes.

3:42KT: Our first episode, I'm not sure if you remember Oti, was actually Black Panther. Mhmm. And it kind of became a all encompassing conversation about superhero films in general. And we also talked about Joaquin on our first episode in January of this year. Yeah. So if you and also our executive dog producer, if he's not licking his balls right now, would be so kind to insert a clip from our Black Panther episode talking about Joaquin Phoenix.

3:42KT: As a side note, they're remaking the Joker with Joaquin Phoenix.

4:15KT: We like Joaquin.

4:15Oti: Yeah. We do.

4:15KT: We stan a strong Joaquin queen, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.

4:24Oti: It just seems too soon. And I'm pretty sure if we look up the Dark Knight, it probably was ten years ago. We've had our fair fair share of failed jokers along. I'm willing to give Joaquin a go, and I'm sure he'll do great. He's a great actor, and he'll bring his own twist to it. He has this this

4:41Oti: overwhelming constant theme of desperation. Like, you just wanna give that man a hug.

4:41KT: And we're back. Don't we feel great? We've learned a bit more about each other, and we're feeling great. So let's get back to the 2019 film that is The Joker. As we mentioned before, Todd Phillips is the director of this film. He also co wrote this with Scott Silver. There's been quite a lot, in regards to this film leading up to because between August and October, there's obviously been quite a lot, mostly critics,

5:17KT: and people in the cinephile sort of world that have actually seen the film before it's been out for worldwide release. So there are some things that we do need to address before we even get to our first impressions, Oti. Mhmm. So feel free to chime in. As I mentioned again in our Black Panther episode, I kind of am DMX twenty four seven. That's kind of that's kind of my official unofficial title around here. So I'm going to start laying the bricks for my foundational qualms

5:51KT: in regards to this before we even start talking about the film. Yeah? And feel free to chime in at any time, or you can just let me party up in here all by myself. Again, that's a DMX reference. You're most welcome. But if you've listened to our Lion King episode or even our It Chapter Two episode, which are quite recent that we've done, you know, there there are some things that a lot of people talk about that isn't even about the film. Right? So that's why I'm addressing it as our foundational qualms because

6:28KT: there are some things that we acknowledge. Yes. Kimba exists, and we understand that. But to have a, you know, a meaty conversation about the 2019 Lion King, we had to leave that to the side so we could move on. Right? So we're going to do the same thing with Joker 2019 because there has been quite a whirlwind, especially if you are privy to the hashtag film Twitter

6:55KT: that goes around. There's quite a lot of buzz and there's quite a lot of talk. So let's start to lay out our foundational qualms before we even get to our own personal first impressions of the film or Jokers throughout our childhoods. Right? So the the fact that for years and years and years, there have been many iterations of the Joker. Yep. Yep. Not to say you're problem, but there's a reason why these films and these stories continue to be recycled and retold and reused. Mhmm. So we get it. We understand

7:31KT: that there's been quite a few Jokers. Suicide Squad came out literally not that long ago, and the second one is going to come out soon. So, you know, many people would argue maybe it is too soon to have a standalone Joker film, but that is not what we're going to focus on today because we actually wanna get into the nitty gritty of this film. Do you have any qualms to that, sir?

7:31Oti: I don't have any qualms at all.

7:31KT: Cool. Like, you can acknowledge it. You can also say that perhaps

7:58KT: Joaquin isn't your favorite Joker, and that's fine. But it's not going to be the foundational impression that at least I have for the Joker because it's lazy. It's easy. It's default.

8:09Oti: Well, not really. Well, to me, at least, I had no expectations and, you know, I just went to watch a film that was being put up. That was it for me.

8:09KT: We agreed that you wouldn't argue with me.

8:26KT: And, you know, that's what you know, that that is a fair enough point. I'm going to put in the show notes how dare I mention a bigger podcast than us? But Chris Hardwick has the Nerdist or the ID10T podcast. And he recently had Joaquin Phoenix on as a guest. And it was amongst all of the drama

8:49KT: the controversies going on with the Joker and whether people should watch it or whether they shouldn't watch it, hearing Joaquin and Chris Hardwick just talk to each other as humans and relate to each other as humans for an hour was delicious. But the reason why I bring that up is Joaquin actually mentioned, you know, whatever, you know, whatever preconceptions, whatever opinions you have about the Joker is valid.

9:16KT: And as you watch the film, it's going to be validated. And he kind of left it open in a lot of interviews that he had as well. Whatever you want this film to be, it will be. Mhmm. Some you know, sometimes in the For Your Reference household, we're not really into that vague bullshit, but I really feel in this context of the Joker film, it really is up for interpretation as a lot of the buzz pretty much dictates.

9:41KT: Right?

9:41Oti: Yeah. I don't know. Like,

9:45Oti: I'm not sure what the fuss is about over this.

9:45KT: Well, we're going to get into it. This this isn't even the most understand it. This isn't even the most controversial point I'm bringing out.

9:45Oti: Well,

9:55Oti: fair enough. But at the end of the day, what preconception would I be going to into going to watch a movie like the Joker? We've known the Joker for how many years now, and it's just I don't know. It's just idiotic to me. Like

9:55KT: Woah. Woah. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. I don't know how our listeners are. They might not be the brightest, but we do love them all just the same.

9:55Oti: Mate, writers have creative freedom to do whatever the fuck they want with the characters.

10:24KT: And you remember that when you think about our Us episode.

10:27Oti: He's an exception. I hold him to a higher regard.

10:32KT: He being Jordan Peele. Right? Yep. We're very excited for Candyman. That'll be quite a great episode for us to cover. But let's go back to the Joker. So the next foundational qualm that I just wanted to address so we can actually get to the discussion of the film is, okay. It's another superhero movie. It's all about superhero movies, and it's there, and we're remaking it. And it's under well, not the DC, but, you know, Marvel is quite big, it's under the branch of Disney. And we have a monopolized sort of, you know, entertainment powerhouse.

11:05KT: Right? Cool. I actually don't disagree with you. However, for us to have a poignant analysis on this film, we're actually not going to focus on it. So just know that For Your Reference has your back in regards to this foundational qualm, but we're really not going to focus on this. And Todd Phillips did mention that this is a DC standalone film, or at least that's the way he pitched it. So we're not looking to have Joaquin specifically as a Joker crossover into Robert Pattinson's upcoming

11:35KT: Batman film. Right? This is going to live in its own as opposed to a universal episodic sort of, you know, running narrative

11:45KT: that we have.

11:45Oti: Okay. Now that is where a qualm I might have.

11:45KT: I can see the qualm and it's most welcome.

11:45Oti: Well, the thing is that fair enough. It's it's a standalone movie. You know, I get it. Mhmm. But at the end of the day, surely we've watched this and I enjoyed it to some extent and I want to see Joaquin being given the opportunity to take the Joker farther. To deny him that and to continue with the shambolic performance.

12:19Oti: Not even performance. The script wasn't right for Suicide Squad and Jared Leto. So I don't I'm I'm tired of that. I don't wanna see that. Give Joaquin the, you know, the keys and let him just steer us to Pattinson and Joaquin Jamboree.

12:34KT: Sorry. I actually should have addressed the first note that I had in red writing and underlined on my notebook. You're actually my foundational Kuala Mei team. You literally disregarded. That's the whole point of this fucking segment.

12:49Oti: I'm just saying. No. But this Once is you started saying it, I was like, wait a minute.

12:55KT: But I'm telling you, this is not to be regarded as part of the DC film franchise that we have.

12:55Oti: I'm not regarding it. I was just raising a point that it seems like a waste to Joaquin's talent.

12:55KT: Get your finger out of your ass. Keep your finger in my ass, and let's move on.

13:12Oti: And move on, we shall.

13:15KT: And that's no joke. Let's move on. The last foundational qualm and there is a sea of qualms depending on which camp or which, you know, sort of side you sit on. But the last foundational qualm I want us to get into before we talk about first impressions is Todd Phillips, the director of this film. Oti, are you privy? Have you been keeping up with what the kids have been saying or what Todd Phillips specifically has been saying about? I I guess it's just in the press junkets essentially.

13:45Oti: What are the kids saying?

13:47KT: So essentially, in a sound bite, in an interview, Todd Phillips said that woke cult culture in quotes has killed comedy. And that's kind of why or, you know, there's obviously an exhaustive explanation as to why he transitioned from comedy into more serious sort of films. Let me tackle this. Head on horns.

13:47Oti: Is that a your phrase or mine? Think that's just a KT horn.

13:47KT: KT Prince me. A KT horn? Yep. What? Was that a Joker laugh? You're welcome. No. I did it, so I'm welcome. Oh, I thought I did it. This is not Predestination,

14:31KT: my friend. This is not But let's get back to it. Let me address this. And again, feel free to disagree with me, which is what you always do, or feel free to agree with me, and we can fight the masses on this particular point. So what I'm understanding and I even if you guys follow us on Twitter, I even tweeted this as well because I tried to look up articles, and I still didn't see what the big kerfuffle was about. So I actually tweeted out saying, hey.

15:02KT: Why is everyone angry at Phillips, and do I suddenly need to be angry myself? Is that something that I need to do? And people were pretty much saying the same thing that I came across, which I didn't necessarily see as a qualm. Okay. So let's just take a step back from however we feel about anybody. Let's all just take a step back. Okay? If everyone is important, which I believe they are, then, you know, there are schools of thought where if, you know, if if women are important, if the homosexual LGBT community is important,

15:45KT: then you shouldn't make fun of them. Right? There there is the school of thought that you apparently, comedy can exist outside of that. Right? Mhmm. Well, if that's the case, then Todd Phillips isn't necessarily wrong in what he's saying because if everyone is important and they shouldn't be made fun of, then that it's essentially true. You can't make fun of anyone. Right? And Todd Phillips is also the director for The Hangover

16:12KT: as well as a whole slew of comedies as well. Are you telling me you didn't laugh when Ken Jeong jumped out of the boot naked? But that also perpetuates, like, Asian men, again, stereotype, having small dicks. But people laughed. People continue to laugh about it. Even Ken Jeong laughs about it. So where do where do we go in this world? You know what I mean? It's just you you can either be derogatory about it, which is what some people might say Todd Phillips is doing, or you can be humanitarian

16:46KT: about it in regards to basic human rights, and you're actually saying the same thing. If you can't make fun of anyone, then you can't really make fun of anything. Maybe, perhaps, we wait a year before we review something. But the what I wanted to get at in regards to Todd Phillips' commentary is if you can't make fun of yourselves, then what can like, what what else is there? There are some things that I I agree should be sacred, but then,

17:13KT: I don't know. We're we're not all sitting around behind closed doors saying, yes, please. Thank you. Isn't the world wonderful? Is all I'm gonna say. Is there anything else you wanna say before we dive into first impressions?

17:13Oti: No. I think we should just continue.

17:13KT: Okay. And, again, all of our listeners, we have quite a wide range of listeners. I know we have a lot of female listeners. We have a lot of YOHO or the bros sort of listeners, and we love you guys saying in our foundational qualms,

17:43KT: if you feel that it's not for you, that's absolutely fine. We would really love if you could check out any of our other episodes. But if you think and you feel like you're ready to take this journey with us, please continue as we actually start to address this film, starting off with our first impressions. Oti.

18:04Oti: Oh, wow. Where do you all begin? Like Not Batman Begins because that's a different one. No. Like, growing up, you've just known the Joker as Batman's arch nemesis, and that's all he's ever been to me at least. Like, I never went out of my way to think, oh, how cool is the Joker? You know what I mean? Or what is the Joker

18:29Oti: the way he is?

18:29KT: Because it's not being told from his point of view.

18:29Oti: True.

18:34Oti: Everything we're watching pretty much is through Bruce's eyes. Mhmm. And it was refreshing watching this. I felt like it removed itself from this sort of comical element that

18:34KT: In recent years.

18:34Oti: In recent years where we've just been stuck with Marvel and

18:58Oti: all that shit.

18:58KT: Even The Boys which should have been a lot more crass and dirtier than it should have been but yes.

19:04Oti: No but like it it just felt like a well made movie if if someone didn't know who the Joker was and they went to watch this. They would completely come with that movie and think that was a good movie to watch. Yeah. Without any context, without anything it was just beautifully told and that's at the end of the day that's all we want from a movie right?

19:30KT: Yeah. And just to capture off your first impressions, how are you feeling about the trailers, you know, growing up with a pretty much solidified understanding of the Joker and having, you know, this new film question all of that?

19:30Oti: I think I'm different because I

19:48Oti: in as much as I watched and read comics growing up, I really wasn't that into the Joker. Like, I just saw him like he was there, and he was an entity in this universe, and that was it for me. Mhmm. And watching this, it didn't feel like I my childhood was being betrayed. It suddenly wasn't. Yeah. Like I've read different origin stories of how he became and I'm fine.

20:13Oti: It's all subjective. It can change and I play to to him and doing this this way. I felt it made more sense to it was more grounded to reality. Commissioner Gordon can be the man from Westworld? Yeah. Like, you know mental health is a thing that's so vast nowadays in our society that it's bound to be covered in in these characters that we see in this sort of comical universe where you have your superheroes from Marvel or DC, you know, it's all perfect. And of course, with mental health, it can affect anyone.

20:46Oti: And we come to see the Joker being who he is through his trials and tribulations, and it was quite sad. The moments in this movie I felt like shit, man. This is deep. I I didn't watch this thinking, oh, this is DC. You know? Yeah. It could have been anyone. Could have been Waititi or someone else just

20:46KT: Oh, Waititi

21:06KT: is not a fan. At least of Todd Phillips. Actually, let let's digress for a second. So Taika Waititi was as far as I saw, he just retweeted saying, lol he funny in regards to Todd Phillips, but then there was a whole storm behind that in regards to what that actually meant. Feel free to tweet us @ForYourRefPod if there was more context as opposed to that one retweet, but that's literally

21:33KT: all I could see. But, essentially, people were like, oh, Taika is the perfect counter because he actually has a movie about Hitler, but it's a comedy. And we're so learned and we're so funny. I see your Taika Waititi, which we do stan in the For Your Reference household, but I raise you a Lee Wanell because he tweeted

21:53KT: that how much he loves Todd Phillips and how much he loves his films. But as a director, he doesn't really have anything to say in regards about that. Yeah. And that is a that is a I was gonna say gentlemen, but we're not about toxic masculinity. That is a human response. Right? Not to say that Taika was wrong in speaking up against it because obviously he's in that superhero sort of universe, but we get it. It's great. Let's move on.

22:19KT: Right?

22:19Oti: Yeah. And what were your first impressions of this?

22:23KT: Oh, thank you. Are you looking to get your producer credit, Oti?

22:23Oti: I've got a producer hat on me. I produce a Kangol.

22:23KT: You got a Kangol on your hat?

22:23Oti: Kangol.

22:23KT: Oh, Kangol. Wow. Remember what Kangol? What kind of childhood did you have? Just because it has a kangaroo? You're being racist, mate. I thought that would be like the default hat for you guys. Watch out for our Christmas Kangol merch coming out in 2019. Let's get into first impressions. Mhmm. Yes. I I always like the Joker. And if you've listened to our podcast,

23:00KT: you know, especially in, you know, the sort of clearly defined sort of roles, you know, obviously, we've had Black Panther. But we also talk about it in quite a lot of our podcast episodes about the relatable villain. And like you're saying, from this point of view, we actually do get to understand what it's like to be in the shoes of Arthur and what he actually had to go through. Right? There's all sorts of lore, and lore is like universe. Like, people just love using that word. I feel like unless it's like ancient times,

23:38KT: you you need to calm down. It's not that it's not that dramatic. But again, I know we have a lot of friends Just say. And a lot of geeks.

23:38Oti: I'm playing Destiny 2 right now, and I've collected almost all the lores. So, you know. Lores

23:54Oti: everywhere.

23:55KT: Well, you can lay down your law on me anytime, sir. But, you know, I again, we're not gonna pinpoint how old KT is. That is not the game that we're playing today. But I grew up where the Joker was already there. Like, I I didn't have to grow up with the Joker. He was kind Shock. Right? Blinky Bill shock. Fun fact. First of all, whenever Oti says fun fact, it's usually morbid and it's about death. But fun fact, Oti didn't know that Blinky Bill was Australian.

24:29Oti: I didn't think about it. Like, who who thinks about it in a childhood? Koala. For all I know, koalas could have been imaginary back then.

24:39KT: But then again, we're gonna stop digressing. But then again, when we went to Ethiopia, there were eucalyptus trees. And I said to you, those are eucalyptus trees which are native to Australia. And you're like, if they're native to Australia, why are they here? And apparently, was a gift from the government.

24:53Oti: Well, you say everything is native to Australia. So who would believe you anyway?

24:57KT: Well, I tell people I'm native to Australia because I'm a brown woman. No one believes me. Hell. You wanted some realism? There you motherfucking girl. You keep complaining about the Joker being real? Welcome to the For Your Reference episode. Bam. Okay? Let's move on. But, yeah, we talk a lot about the relatable villain, and I had a lot of deeply personal resonating feelings while watching this film. Mhmm. And we're going to get into it. And I don't wanna spend too much on first impressions, but even just watching the trailers, mate. Mate,

25:34KT: even just watching the trailers, I was satiated and I was ready. Even at the It Chapter two, they were playing the trailer, the full trailer of the Joker and I got so excited and then I got upset because it wasn't the Joker that we were actually watching on that particular day. But let's get into it. Let's dive into it. Let's focus on the cinematography, the soundtrack, and also the costume design. Within, again, the context of the superhero genre, I did feel like the cinematography was more grounded in reality,

26:09KT: even considering the fact that this is as franchise a DC sort of film. DC is known for being quite heavy in its color grading. Mhmm. Where everyone's teeth looks green, pretty much. Unless you're Aquaman because that makes sense because he's eating all of that algae pussy.

26:28Oti: Oh, wow.

26:28KT: Is that not how it happened? I think that's how it happens. You got it right.

26:28Oti: Isn't I want to know where you got your doctorate from me.

26:28KT: Isn't isn't that isn't that the origin story for all Polynesians?

26:28Oti: Okay. People need to direct their anger towards you. Forget the Joker.

26:49KT: Like we talk frame of reference. So I'm allowed to say that.

26:54Oti: Mhmm.

26:56KT: You're not even gonna touch it, are you? No. Well, you're never gonna be able to watch Moana the same. I'll tell you that much. But let's go back let's go back to it. I I feel like the cinematography was quite nice. And, obviously, it had a Hollywood sort of budget, but it felt real. It just let you sit there. Sometimes you sat there uncomfortably long and you were forced to sit in that moment without any sort of levity and that was translated in

27:28KT: as well. I feel like the soundtrack played quite well with the feel Like, it had to compete with the scenes that were going on, and they were quite nice as well. Spoiler spoilers spoilers. I think we it's pretty obvious. It's pretty straightforward that we're talking about spoilers today. But when he actually kills his coworker that gives him the gun

27:28Oti: Randall.

27:28KT: Thank you. Mhmm. It turns into that that drumbeat.

27:56KT: Boom. Boom. Boom. Hey. And then it kind of, like, brings that sort of I wouldn't even call it levity, but it's like a mood shift. It's like a mood change. Mhmm. And I think the soundtrack did quite well for that. There was a lot of Frank Sinatra as well which really informed the piece because this film is set in 1980. And people talk a lot about or even Todd Phillips talks a lot about drawing influences from Taxi Driver as well. So you have a lot Frank Sinatra,

28:23KT: De Niro's in this film, and you really start to feel that vomit authenticity. Sorry. I I I can't say that word without vomiting. Again, it's just one of those overwrought, unfortunately, words that we have there now. But it builds so beautifully into the tapestry of the intention of this film. Intention being the underlying word.

28:48Oti: We're getting to see Joker's transformation or at least Arthur Fleck's transformation into the Joker. Yep. And how everything within the environment and society molds him into this vengeful, hateful person that Mhmm. He becomes.

29:08KT: And we'll we'll definitely get to that, but I wanna spend some time talking about the storytelling of this film. I felt it was done quite nicely. A lot of the times when you are tackling, you know, the the you know, you have to be cautious when you are covering mental health issues. Right? And a lot of the time when you are covering people that are, you know, depressed or schizophrenic or, you know, are dealing with some shit, a lot of the time you have narration

29:41KT: to help pull the scene through or you have, you know, out of body experience. Like, you have different devices in order to convey or to move the scene along. I really appreciated in this film. It kind of was just us watching him. We didn't get to know what his internal thoughts and what his motivations were. It was us just watching him trying to navigate this life. Because, yes, this is set in Gotham, which is pretty much arguably New York. Right? But, anyway, this is set in Gotham, and it's set during the grungy, grimy time

30:15KT: where, you know, people were struggling for jobs. There was a rat infestation, and it was really hard to get by. And that is the backdrop that we're working with in regards to this film. Right? Mhmm. And it really lays so beauty struggle and how, you know, the downtrodden can only be downtrodden for so long.

30:36KT: And if that's a vibrato that you're not into, then it might I can understand why that might be something that would be hard for you to understand in this film. But, you know, from a lot of the points, like, even when we early on in the film, he's watching De Niro's talk show with his mother. Right? And then it cuts to a sequence where he's actually in the audience. It doesn't necessarily tell you that this is his dream or this is what he's fantasizing

31:03KT: until later on, until the scene has actually come into fruition. Yep. Right? And then even as he starts to develop, like, a relationship with Zazie Beetz, we don't actually know for a fact that this is within his own delusion until later on in the film as well because we are watching it the way that he is carrying himself out. And I thought that was quite interesting. It was a quite an interesting take in regards to, you know, someone with mental health because a lot of the time, it

31:33KT: it's hard to convey that. Right? Yeah. True. And also as a viewer, it's uncomfortable to watch that. I think this film, it was uncomfortable to watch because a lot of it was real life shit. And sometimes people don't wanna watch real life shit, which is fine because after you live your terrible, you know, the like, you know, just getting through in life, whether it's your job, whether it's your family, whether it's your marriage or your kids or whatever it is, maybe you don't wanna see something that's so real. And that's fine,

32:10KT: but that's kind of where this film lives. In the spectrum of superhero films, you have, you know, the really sort of cartoonish comical you know, Birds of Prey, the trailer just came out recently with Harley Quinn. That Harley Quinn was very cartoonish. She was really much a caricature in that sort of Harley Quinn portrayal. Right? So you have that side of the spectrum. And then all the way on the side here, you have Joaquin Phoenix's Joker, where as much as possible,

32:44KT: it is grounded in reality because we we talked about the lore. Right? There's a lot of the Joker lore, but they actually rely on The Killing Joke's portrayal Yep. Of the Joker because according to Todd Phillips, he felt like him falling to a vat of acid, and that's his origin story, felt a bit unrealistic. It does. And it's it's quite an interesting thing because, you know, if we go back to

33:09KT: Chris Nolan, which which I which I coined as the Nolan complex. Come and fight me if you were the one to coin it before me. But the Nolan complex was, you know, for a long time, superhero films were regarded as folksy or, you know, a dime a dozen or a like a fad that's going to phase out eventually. Right? You had a few superhero movies here and there. And when Nolan came along with the Dark Knight series,

33:36KT: people really took it seriously as potentially something that could not only be Oscar worthy because that is a contrived topic that we can talk about in a second, but it also focuses on the fact that you can actually have wholly realized substantial narratives even though it is a superhero genre type of film. Right? Oh, great. And that's quite an interesting thing. It'll be interesting to know if this Joker film, you know, in spite of all the controversy that it's giving, is it going to pave the way for a new way of portraying superhero films?

34:12KT: Because for a lot of years now, it has relied on that folksy sort of Marvel cheery, you know, joke every two seconds sort of formula. Are we going to see a new layout now? Because I felt like this was done successfully. And if other people feel like this is done successfully, then obviously people are going to copy that formula.

34:34Oti: Yeah. Then again, it comes down to the type of character that's being portrayed. And the Joker is pretty much your everyday kind of bloke. You know? He's Mhmm. No superpowers, no crap like that. It's just him and his wits. Mhmm. You know? And and it's easy to portray him where there's so much realism because he doesn't have to fucking float or fly somewhere, you know? But but, yeah, it's something that I think needs to be done more when it comes to select superheroes.

35:07KT: Mhmm.

35:08Oti: Because enough of this cheery all just nonsensical type of narrative where it doesn't drive any message home but this after the end of watching this movie the Joker he can sit back and reflect and say you know what was it trying to tell me there? What did I take away from about mental health? There's so much to discuss about this but it would bring such issues to a lot of to a lot more people's attention who wouldn't necessarily not even know about it.

35:08KT: And that's that's completely

35:38KT: what I don't understand. And I am fortunately or unfortunately going to bring another brick to the foundation of qualms because a lot of people were saying was, you know, this is too real. And, you know, it's it's going to have ramifications in ways that we can't anticipate in regards to translating through real world sort of violence. But what I don't understand is how can we live in a world where,

36:03KT: you know, everyone loves superhero movies, which, again, if if that's on you, that's fine. Like, you know, we're not going to chastise that in any way. But we live in a world where people love, love, love, love, love superhero movies. The cheery ones, but, you know, there's also people that love DC films exclusively and not even Marvel. Right? But the the there's a world out there, and there's an appetite for superhero films the way that people understand superhero films. Right? But there's also a growing morbid curiosity in regards to true crime. Right? Mhmm. Real

36:40KT: murders. And I'll even put myself in that category, Like, Narcos. I fucking love Narcos even though Pablo Escobar was a terrible real life person. Like, it's one of my favorite shows, not even on Netflix, like, just in general. And, you know, you have, you know, Criminal Minds, and you have all of these, like, shows that make death so realistic that it's hard to even differentiate that from reality. Right?

37:04KT: So you have people that love superhero movies. You have people that love true crime. And, again, they might not even overlap in the Venn diagram, For Your Reference. Right? But why then can't a superhero movie also have realistic

37:19KT: elements to it?

37:19Oti: I don't know. It's all about escapism, isn't it? Like, I'm not gonna go watch Iron Man so that I could reflect on my own bloody life. You know what I mean?

37:19KT: But even for us, we would have a long day at work and then come home and our escapism would be watching Mindhunter,

37:37KT: which is great by the way. But you know what I mean? Like, we say escapism, but escapism doesn't necessarily mean fantasy world.

37:46Oti: No. It doesn't. Escapism is something that she would pretty much just make you not think about the burdens of whatever that's laying on your life for the moment. You know? It's yeah.

37:46KT: And we we don't have

38:00KT: all of the answers here. And For Your Reference listeners, if anyone claims to know all of the answers of life, run away from them. Because no one knows the answers to everything.

38:11Oti: And it's like this thing, you know, where before the naughties, talking sex or having sex in movies was kind of like frowned upon or any conversation about that. Uh-huh. And then it became more mainstream.

38:24Oti: Now you could just see people doing it wherever. And now you have something like mental illness where it there's still that this sort of taboo about talking about it as if once you unveil the mask behind it, everyone would be like, oh, I'm crazy. I'm gonna go up and shoot up everything. You know? And that's not right, and that's not fair.

38:24KT: Actually, yes. I wanna pick up off on that before we move on to other topics because,

38:46KT: again, there must be a blue moon out or just your moon, sir, because you did say something very poignant that I'm going to pick up on. And that's that is exactly on the money, Oti, because let's leave the Joker to the side for a second. Fleabag has garnered a lot of praise out of the Emmys. And more and more, we are seeing stories that center around protagonists that are going through mental health issues, and it's a normalized

39:16KT: sort of narrative, which is great. Right? But why then? Because it's a superhero movie, we can't have mental health issues taken seriously. And I'm I'm not pointing out Fleabag specifically, but I I just wanna pinpoint it as, you know, even Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind with Jim Carrey, that got a lot of praise as well with Kate Winslet, with KT Winslet, mind you. So where where do we draw the line? Where is it praised to talk about mental health? And where is it shockingly

39:48KT: morose to talk about mental health?

39:48Oti: In a genre where it would attract the most audience.

39:53KT: Yeah. But let okay. Let let's just sit in this for a second because you like you mentioned earlier in this episode, it wasn't some crazy inconceivable sort of character coming out from the abyss of hell. Right? This was someone, Arthur, that was going through so much shit in his life that just you know what? When people take too much shit, not all the time, but sometimes that manifests in violence.

40:26KT: Right? Yeah. And I found myself cheering for him. Right? Mhmm. In the apartment. What's his what's the guy that gave him the gun's name?

40:26Oti: Randall.

40:26KT: When Randall came along and he killed him, I I found myself cheering for him because, you know what? Like, maybe not all of us have gone through depression, but I'm sure, you know, quite a lot of us have gone through waking up and just not wanting to face the day. Right? Mhmm. Tricking yourself on getting up on three, even counting up to two. Like, this is some real shit.

41:01KT: It's not some sort of fantastical whimsical element. People hurt. People hurt, and they continue to hurt. And it's one of those things where, you know, even I don't wanna get too crazy, but there's been such in the most recent years, there's been such a buzz about people filming, like, all of these violent acts on, like, trains or on buses, but you're not helping them either. You're just filming them. So how different I actually found those parallels in this film where I was just sitting there watching Arthur's character being beaten up, being downtrodden,

41:41KT: being talked down to, and there was nothing we did to stop that because, obviously, it's a film. But you understand what I'm saying? We're not perfect. Even in the For Your Reference household, I know we're exalted to heaven and we're shining on you from down below. But really, it's not that hard to fathom

42:01KT: how people can become so bitter.

42:01Oti: True. And we're just watching an episode of South Park the other day where they were talking about kids being put in detention centers. Yeah. The most recent season. Yeah. With the Mexican Joker mind you. The Mexican Joker. And it's so true like society as a whole has to bear some sort responsibility when the people that we condescend, we dismiss, we pretty much just beat upon, come back to avenge.

42:31KT: And it doesn't necessarily give people free rein. Like, if someone hurts you, then you have the permission to go and do that. But And that's where it comes down to mental health. But in in the context of this film, you even have Thomas Wayne's character pretty much literally calling everyone clowns. And nowhere along the film did he ever try to even pretend to sympathize with the general public.

42:55Oti: Yeah.

42:56KT: And that's and that's how it is. Like, even with Arthur, when he was meeting with his social worker, you know, she she was trying to get him to get into these sessions, and unfortunately, the budgets got cut. Right? So you have these people that are struggling to get back into society and get into jobs so they can get money and have a livelihood, but you cut their services off. And then you say, in spite of that, you need to go and be a decent citizen. How does that even work? Yeah.

43:24Oti: Thomas Wayne wasn't the best kind of person in this, and the Joker isn't a good person.

43:24KT: I don't think that's fair. No. Like, the Joker,

43:31KT: the final end product, he isn't a good person. But there were many checkpoints along the way before he escalated to become the Joker.

43:41Oti: Yes. But once he got there, and and and I agree, society

43:45Oti: failed him.

43:45KT: He was in that late night show with De Niro, and he was saying everyone is mean. You're all mean. Everyone is a fucking asshole to him. Imagine having such a sad life, and you're looking after your mom, and you find out that your mom has abused you for all of these years,

44:01KT: what do you have to hold on to? Yeah. That's fucked up. What do we say in pretty much all of our podcast episodes? No one can fuck you up more than your parents. And this in every single sense. Yeah. He was failed That was the last one. By his mother. He was failed by the system. He was failed by so many people. You can't you can't just blame people for the way that they are without acknowledging, withholding any sort of assistance that you could have provided.

44:29KT: And, again, I'm not saying this as a exalted celestial being. I am here, and I am a human. And for most of the times, especially if you've listened to our episodes, I am a whole ass dick. Right? So I'm not I'm not claiming deity to anything, but it's one of those things because exactly what you're saying and you were valid in what you're saying to you, not to me.

44:29Oti: But I really don't feel like

44:54Oti: the Joker is this crazy sort of I don't know I don't know how he Because I'm saying they don't know how he got this way, but he did get there. And at the end of the day, you're killing people regardless of whatever justification you might have and whatever how horrid lifestyle you might have. There is a line, mate. There is a line.

45:15KT: There is a line. I a 100% understand, but I'm also cognizant of the fact of how that sort of rhetoric

45:21KT: flows into real life.

45:21Oti: After the fact, looking at everything that's happened with this, like, it's easy to say, okay, it's all sad and he was treated unfairly and whatnot, but he's still killing people. Yeah. And he goes on further knowing the Joker's full story. He goes further to become to terrorize Gotham.

45:43KT: Yes. And that's where the fictional sort of storyline comes in. But what I'm trying to get to you is, unfortunately, this is not being seen as a fictional story, and it's being portrayed as a way to explain or potentially devolve into something more morose. It's something that people you know, you can so easily default,

46:06KT: lazily say that video games is, you know, gonna cause people to go and carry out those malicious sort of, you know, shoot up shoot them up sort of games that they in the games into real life. And I just don't care for that rhetoric is what I'm saying. True. And So I guess it depends exactly what you're saying. If you can understand that in the realm of this film, this is a fictional world with possibly some real life reflection that you can have, then continue to go on and do that. But don't

46:37KT: tack this onto something bigger than what it actually is.

46:37Oti: Fair enough.

46:43Oti: And going back to the movie, I think one of the most interesting things was that any moment that the Joker or Arthur Fleck was actually happy Mhmm. He was in his delusions. Yeah. In his relationship with Zazie. I think I know him as Sophie in the movie. Yeah. You know? Because what what reprieve did he have in the real world? He didn't have any reprieve. The brain is such a complex thing. Mhmm. And when you're going through sort of those hardships and all and you have mental illness,

47:15Oti: he would play tricks on you. But it's just, you know, the movie isn't 100% dark and heavy. There are light moments in this and it's just sad that the lot moments actually he's delusions. The moments where he's actually really happy. Yeah. Because he found himself in Sophie's apartment

47:35KT: when he was This already is where we actually find out that they didn't have any semblance of a relationship.

47:40Oti: Yes.

47:42KT: And the only time he had seen her according to the realm of the film was in the elevator. Yep. She didn't come by his door. They didn't go out. She didn't see him at the stand up routine and that's where it all started to fragment. And at least from the viewer's point of view, that's where we started to realize those were his delusions. Yeah. But again, just just applying that in a realistic sort of sense, there's

48:09KT: there was a lot wrong with that in the sense of the film. But in regards to having an escape, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, people play video games. You know, people go and play Pokemon GO. This one man still plays Pokemon GO on the bus. I feel like he's like unless people still play it, I feel like he's the only man that still plays Pokemon GO. But if that's you, then, you know, feel free.

48:32KT: Go. We recently went to the Oz Comic Con as well, a place where you can just go by yourself and then meet friends and, you know, like, you know, form real, hopefully, long lasting friendships.

48:46Oti: And we met Aisha Tyler.

48:49KT: We met Aisha Tyler. Squish Mountain. That was But you know what? And even though you laugh at me, she's she's fun and she's personable, but I do understand that we were we're not best friends. And that breaks my heart, and I cry every night about that. But I understood that she's a celebrity, and I am not. Oh, me? I am a mere cretin on this And I'm fine with that because the first the the the couple of seconds that we had to meet her was great, but I knew that it wasn't going to,

49:27KT: you know, form

49:30KT: the foundation of who I am as a person.

49:30Oti: Oh, she wouldn't turn around and say, hey, KT, stay.

49:35KT: No. Because I no. Because but and it's one of those things. The fragility of the mind is something that needs to be tended to. Whether you're talking about mental illness, whether you're talking about grief, if it's not something that you're attending to, it can become something that is a point of no return unfortunately. That is true. So we've we've talked about a lot of the themes of the film. Let's spend some time just focusing on Joaquin. He is That moan is everything. I think that's all we need.

50:10Oti: I do. I enjoyed him. Like, he's aside from the horrid things that are happening to him, he tried to hold his head up high and just continue with his his life. He wanted to be a stand up comic. And he his I don't know if it's another mistake, but his psychological thing that made him laugh We'll get into that. Which was, you know, I don't know. It made me uncomfortable.

50:33KT: Okay. Let's let's get into it now. So let's let's address the laughter because, you know, there there's a lot to be said, and there's a lot that has been said already about how distracting that laugh

50:47KT: was to the film.

50:47Oti: I don't I wouldn't say distracting. I'd say

50:47KT: We came out of the theater, and you were like, what was up with all that laughing?

50:47Oti: Like, it made me uncomfortable. Yeah. Like, it it wasn't distracting by any sort of it just made me feel sort of creeped out. And when I said that, you the first thing you said to me was that he can't help it. Mental illness, you know? It is that and why should I be comfortable anyway? Yeah. What

51:12Oti: right do I have to be comfortable in this when someone's going through that? And that was fair enough.

51:12KT: But but that's exact that's exactly it because,

51:20KT: you know, he is going through some shit. And, you know, you you might even just be having a cute little date, holding hands, strolling down the street, and see someone maniacally laughing or having, you know, constant tics or, you know, shouting at the ground. Right? Or just throwing water on the ground or, you know, what whatever whatever, you know, whatever sort of manifestations that they have. Yeah. It it it is uncomfortable, but it's also not convenient for you and especially for them.

51:54KT: So, yeah, there there are moments where he laughs quite a lot in the film, but I didn't take that as, you know, incessant sort of Joker mannerisms. I took that as a man that had mental ill he couldn't even control that.

52:10Oti: Yeah.

52:11KT: Right? It's it's like, you know, when you when you watch those ads on TV where it says to give a dollar a day to save a child, it's so easy to change that channel because you don't want that, like, uncomfortable sort of nature to sit in. But if you actually kept it there, it would continue to get uncomfortable because it brings you back to how shitty life can be, unfortunately.

52:34Oti: True.

52:35KT: And, again, there's nothing wrong with sometimes not wanting to experience that. Yeah. Which is fair enough. Like,

52:42Oti: I liked his character to a degree. He at least conveyed his emotions. You could see his struggle written all over his face. You could tell that he was dealing with a lot. And remember when I think one of the first moments he was with his mother and they're watching the Murray show and

53:04Oti: he saw himself with the audience yeah and he was telling he was saying how he lives with the mother and everyone started laughing But then he later came on to say that I've looked after my mother for I don't know how many years now. Yeah. And then he stopped becoming funny. It just shows you exactly how he sees himself and burden that he has to carry alone.

53:24KT: But this is also a real thing. And correct me if I'm wrong. I think the mom had schizophrenia Mhmm. As well. Right? And she actually abandoned Arthur as a baby. And they found him, like, tied to a radiator as well. And, you know, whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of these, you know, a lot of this can be hereditary as well. But what we see in this film is the evolution of Arthur Fleck into the Joker.

53:57KT: And

53:59KT: it it didn't happen suddenly. And, yes, it might be not even excessively. It it might be just intensely violent, but I don't think it was overly glamorizing and gratuitous. Right? People talk about, you know, how how this glamorizes violence. I don't think necessarily so. You know, as much as I love John Wick, there there's argument to be made that, you know, gun-fu, knife-fu, horse-fu, that that glamorizes violence. And it's tasty, and it's great because that's that's how sensationalized the John Wick world

54:40KT: is. Right? I live in a world where both of these films can exist. Can you believe? Yeah. Where it's not just one or the other and you take things away. But it's it's one of those things. It's if you lay aside all of the vibrato and everything that is laying forth in regards to this film, what we have is a wholly, deeply personification of what it means to continue to be hurt by society and in many ways, have that manifest

55:19KT: in the most violent of ways. And that is the best way that I can describe this film. It doesn't need to be the reason why you need to tell your 14 year old son to stop playing that video game. It doesn't need to be the reason why this, you know, administrator in the incel forum needs to go and wreak havoc along people. It doesn't need to be more than what the film's.

55:43Oti: Mhmm.

55:45KT: Why can't we just consume a film, immerse ourselves in the film, but not apply it in places where it doesn't need to be? Agreed. There are many there there are so many parallels. And if you've if you're listening to this just out of curiosity, hi, welcome. We're curious beings. But if you have watched the film, a lot of the commentary within the film has played out in real life.

56:16KT: Right? A lot of Todd Phillips and about how he's saying that comedy is dead, there are so many lines and there are so many themes that are paralleled in this film where the Joker actually says that. Mhmm. You wanted to have a movement? I'm the motherfucking face behind that movement bitch. Yeah. And it's scary but that's just where we are at least in the world of Gotham.

56:16Oti: Yeah so we see the Joker go

56:42Oti: go and get interviewed by Murray at the end of the pretty much towards the end of the movie and they're sitting there and De Niro is interviewing him he fesses up to the fact that he's the one that killed the three Guys on the subway? Yeah the three Wayne employees and you could see there was a moment like the minute he said that Murray thought that he was joking yeah but then he repeated it and there was this look he gave him and you could see at that moment it all just snapped.

57:15Oti: Mhmm. Wait a minute this guy is not fucking joking. Yeah. And then he continued just carrying on from there and I was like okay. If someone just pisses up and they kill three people, I am not sure I'll just be sitting there. Then again, this is probably the TV mindset that he had that, oh, this will be good for ratings and shit. Uh-huh. But I would have been Yeah. Considering what happened. I would have been up out of that chair so quick.

57:40Oti: Arthur wouldn't be able to catch me at all.

57:40KT: Well, let's talk about the evolution. So you have the three guys that he killed on the subway. Yes, on paper. Yes, the way that Murray said it, it was terrible. But let's remember the context because it actually laid out in the series of the film. They were harassing a lady. Arthur kind of left that alone. And when the lady left, they started to harass him. Yep. Taunting him, singing in his face, taking his belongings. Again, it's it's not a default response to just shoot someone,

58:14KT: but it it's one of those moments. You know, a lot of this while even watching the Joker made me feel like we were playing a game. Like, you know, we're playing a video game, and it's like, how much can we take before we go into rampage? Because it was inevitable. It was going to happen. It's not going to happen to everyone. But if you consider all of the circumstances and in this case, his world of reference, then it was bound to happen. A lot of the time on this talk about our frame of reference

58:49KT: as a brown woman, KT, as a delicious, lovely, sumptuous

58:55KT: Kenyan man.

58:55Oti: Don't oversell it.

58:58KT: I didn't. I can oversell it if you want. But we come from our frame of reference. Right? You can't just watch something and not ignore possibly the frame of reference that you're bringing into the viewing experience. Right? What we also need to address is the character's world of reference.

59:18Oti: Mhmm.

59:19KT: Because we might not be aligned where we are as viewers to where Arthur is, for example, in the Joker. And that's exactly what we were experiencing in this film. Yes. It was crazy, and he took it to the next level. But it wasn't as if it was out of nowhere. The the stepping stones were laid for us, and we continued to follow him on this journey. So we had the three guys. And then if we continue along into the film, I don't think there was anyone in oh, no. Actually, there's in the apartment

59:53KT: Mhmm. Where he kills his coworker Yep. And he lets the boss free. So that happens as his mom, which, you know, in in my Criminal Minds knowledge, that's where the trigger and the escalation happens because his mom is kind of the target. Right? His mom is his foundational qualm for pretty much everything that permeates into him as a whole being. So once he kills his mom, it's free reign. It is. All bets are off. Mhmm. And he is going on his bloody path of rampage. And that crescendos

60:31KT: into the moment where he is on the talk show. Mhmm. Right? I actually, let let's just let's just theorize quickly. Did you feel like when he was in the dressing room and he was talking to Murray, did you feel like he knew at that moment he was going to kill Murray?

60:47Oti: No.

60:48KT: I don't think he did. It was the way events had unfolded. Right? And the events had reminded him because, yes, it's true. And, you know, even that Jimmy Kimmel interview with Joaquin, which is now fake and we all know it's fake now, the the purposes of Murray playing those clips of him in that stand up was to humiliate him and was for everyone to sit around. I'm not sure. I think it's more the nineteen fifties, but excuse my

61:17KT: out of reference reference. You know, it it was for families to sit around with their TV dinners, maybe not in nineteen eighties, but to sit around with their TV dinners and laugh. Laugh at the befuddlement of this random stranger that you don't even know. True. Which not to say that we're better in 2019, but that was literally what he was doing. He wasn't doing it to give a spotlight on humanity.

61:45KT: He was doing it to make fun of him.

61:45Oti: Yeah. He was brought to just give them a laugh. A cheap laugh at that.

61:51KT: Exactly. And it it really culminates into and even on a lighter sense, it reminds me of the most recent season of Money Heist, La Casa de Papel as well because it actually incited, you know, people to feel like, hey. I can stand up for myself. Again, we're not talking about into the levels of violence that we experience in the film, but it's like, hey. You know? You don't need to continue to treat me like shit. And if you continue to treat me like shit, I'm not gonna take it anymore.

62:25KT: Yep. I'm going to stand up for myself because this is not right. And if there's anything that anyone learns from this film, I do hope it is that. Yep. And a 100% agreed.

62:37Oti: It will be bumpy. It's it's well written, but I felt like it was a bit too long that it needed to be. Like, I felt it could have been shorter and still deliver the message that they wanted to pass.

62:51KT: For your reference, this film was two hours and two minutes. And because I'm a learned cinephile, that also includes the end credits as well. We've recently watched films that are way longer than that. True. What say ye commoner? We've seen a couple of three hour movies come come out of late. What what say ye commoner?

63:11Oti: I'm just saying, you know. Areas where I felt like they took a bit too long to

63:17Oti: convey the point.

63:17KT: Okay. And that's fine. In in honor of Joaquin, I will honor your opinion. I do wanna close off with a quote from the film. Is there anything else you wanna mention in regards to this film?

63:31Oti: I just wanna put a shout out to my boys from Atlanta. We have Zazie. We have Paper Boi. You know? Big up. He he was literally

63:40KT: Brian Tyree Henry was literally paper daddy. Yeah. He was the paper daddy behind the cage.

63:48Oti: That's so true.

63:49KT: And Atlanta will be coming back soon. That's great. Yeah. So you chose to end your thoughts that way. I'm going to focus on the film. Thank you very much. Alright. Okay. How are we all feeling? Let's all tap into our sense of self and how we feel. This film can be quite a lot, especially if you have a lot within you that you are yet to reconcile. So first of all, if this film was hard for you and it was hard to get through this episode, Hopefully,

64:23KT: you like pets are quite a nice reprieve from the hard life out there. I am also partial to a chocolate bar or two. Oh. But really, genuinely, hopefully, you guys are tending to your mental health and also looking after those around you, but especially, you know, like they say in the plane demonstrations, look after yourself, not the random kid sitting next to you. Well, what I do wanna say is, you know, a lot can be said about films, and that is absolutely fine. And that is extraordinarily valid. However, however,

65:06KT: to form your opinion before even viewing a film is a disservice, not only to yourself, but filmmaking as a profession. A lot of the time we talk about, you know, actors that, you know, really hold their cajones in regards to acting. Colin Firth, James McAvoy, and Joaquin Phoenix is also in that top tier as well. In credit to him, this was a brilliant performance. I really felt I really felt so much for his character, and I felt myself cheering for him. Understanding that this is a fictional film,

65:48KT: I did cheer for him when he continued to kill and go on a rampage. Right? Because I can enjoy something without applying it in a real life sense. If if you're not able to do that or if you feel like film shouldn't be doing that and you also enjoy true crime, I will implore you to really understand what's most important. I think what people also need to understand is we also live in spaces, genuine, terrible people.

66:21KT: And this is a fictional character, but it's like people aren't regulating how they're feeling. They are, in essence, which is a callback, DMXing on every single qualm that they have when sometimes it's not as intense as everything should be. Mhmm. So KT has ended her sermon. I understand if you don't wanna pay tithes this week, that's fine. I'll find a way to take it from your bank account either way. But let's let's finish off before we go to For Your Reference, I just want to close off with a quote from the film.

66:58KT: This is back when Arthur was meeting with his social worker and it says, you don't listen, do you? You just ask the same questions every week. How's your job? Are you having any negative thoughts? All I have are negative thoughts. So again, hug a puppy, pat a kitty, have a chocolate bar, do whatever it is that makes you feel great about yourself and let's continue to enjoy and consume cinema and TV shows as long as we are able. And let's get into For Your Reference.

66:58Oti: I will reference

67:37Oti: Gotham, the TV Cameron Monaghan playing Joker or Jerome. He's amazing. He plays it so well. It's a good show. And he has Ben McKenzie. For all the O.C. lovers out there, you know, Ben holds it down, so watch Gotham.

67:37KT: Read the room, mate. I just ended with a really

67:59KT: heartfelt

68:00Oti: Mate, there's nothing deeper than O.C.

68:03Oti: Let that sink in.

68:03KT: No. I'm letting the silence sink in. That's what I'm letting it happen. Cool. Right. The and that's why we get our own For Your Reference because I do not endorse that in 2019, KT from the For Your Reference household. I will reference the Netflix series that came out this year from Ricky Gervais called After Life. Funnily enough, cutely enough, coincidentally enough, we do have a podcast episode on it. So I would recommend After Life, which is Ricky Gervais' series. He recently had to deal with the death of his wife

68:42KT: and what it meant to be able to navigate through that. And his dog is essentially what made him keep going. Oh, wow. So if we talk about a film that's really deep in mental health issues and you need some levity, that's where you should go. True. You you know where else you should go if you're waiting between episodes? On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod, friends and lovers.

69:05Oti: And you can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

69:09KT: And if you'll be so kind, we would love if you could give us an Apple star rating and also a review. Yeah.

69:17Oti: See you next week, guys. Be kind to yourselves. See you.