Jojo Rabbit – If all Elsa fails

Full transcript of Jojo Rabbit – If all Elsa fails.

0:00KT: Guten Tag, friends and lovers, and welcome to the third course of our second annual Reference Degustation, a month long celebration of tantalizing Taika Waititi tastetations. Mhmm. Mhmm. If you have joined us on this one, how dare you? You are late to the reservation. We've previously had two courses already. And if you have joined us, the first course was very accessible. It's the very Insta worthy, super popular, super food of Thor: Ragnarok. So make sure you go and check that out if you haven't already.

0:36KT: Our second course was very specific to the region. We covered Boy. We felt all the feels. And today, maybe, I guess we'll find out if Oti felt any feels in regards to Jojo Rabbit. This is a general warning to anyone that hasn't watched Jojo Rabbit or is uncomfortable with the idea of Hitler being satirized

1:00KT: or in a comical sort of sense. We completely understand if you don't wanna join us along the way, but I can assure you there are definitely some qualms that we do share in some senses. So thank you so much, guys. Hopefully, your palettes are well satiated, and let's get on with the show. Take a walk in someone else's shoes and await correspondence from your unemployed letter fiance. Yes, friends and lovers. We are diving into the 2019 film Jojo Rabbit.

1:55Oti: Wow. Yeah.

1:57KT: Wow is definitely it. It can be the punctuator. It can be the conjunction. It can be the whole paragraph. Let's continue on with the stats. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler is the dietary requirement that we need make note of. We have another written and directed Taika Waititi. It can't be a joint. What is it? What's what's what's what what do you call joints here? How dare you? I am a Jamie Foxx Law Abiding Citizen. How dare you? It'll be interesting, but this is based off Caging Skies that was authored by Christine Leunens.

2:38KT: And we're definitely mostly going to focus on the film. But even after watching this, I kinda want to go and read Caging Skies. Ah. The film was released in the Toronto International Film Festival on September 2019. It had a budget of $14,000,000 and a worldwide gross of $90,300,000.

3:01Oti: Alright. Cool. Yep.

3:04KT: We have actors of Roman Griffin Davis, Thomasin McKenzie, and Scarlett Johansson, as well as a whole slew of a cast, very talented cast. You know, you wonder if it's the that brought them in or whether it was the script, the writing. I'm not sure if we'll theorize on that today. Something that was theorized and became very practical were the awards that Jojo Rabbit won. Oscar winning Taika Waititi, if you're nasty. I should have said that earlier. How dammy. A thousand Oti lashings to me.

3:04Oti: Yep.

3:04KT: It won best adapted screenplay

3:40KT: in the BAFTAs as well as the Oscars, and it was nominated for a lot of awards as well. You know, there's sometimes there's an alienation of whether Oscar winning films are just there to wank everyone or whether they actually deserve it. Again,

3:59KT: not really sure if we're going to get into that or if we wanna get into that, but I guess, you know, even through our conversation, we can see how we feel. So let's get into first impressions. Again, this is a special edition Reference Degustation, and we do have common and recurring themes of Taika that we'll go through. So, Oti, how did you feel? We didn't watch it at the time that it came out. I don't think it was a malicious thing. I think we just didn't get around to it.

4:26KT: And with the opportunity of this Reference Degustation, we included it as a part of our month long celebration. So how did you feel, you know, just generally about the film. Did it work for you? And something that I personally would like to know is not if it worked, but how do you feel about the idea of such a terrible historical figure being used in a very whimsy sort of way. Not about whether it worked, just about how you feel. So figure all that out in a nutshell.

5:01Oti: Like you said, this is our first time watching it. And I don't know. At the back of my of my mind, I was not really eager to watch it. I saw the trailer, and I just thought, it's not for me. So the fact that we're doing a Taika degustation, and it just popped in there. It gave us a good opportunity to really just try and delve into the world that at least to see what he tried to achieve. And I I'm not sure. I I don't wanna sound too old grandpa on this.

5:37KT: I I like how you had to emphasize that the grandpa is old. We're not Benjamin Buttoning.

5:43Oti: Mate, he can get he can have cuddy old grumpers out there.

5:43KT: Oh my.

5:49KT: I think you're revealing more about yourself than Jojo Rabbit.

5:54Oti: But, yeah, I I just thought it was an alright movie. I didn't think too much about it. Didn't think it was Oscar worthy, to be honest. The jokes weren't that funny. It was sort of base level, sort of just things we've had all before. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I had, or at least thought about this movie, was trying to see how they try to combat such a deep, deep, terrible

6:23Oti: event Uh-huh. That happened in such a satirical way. And all in all, I just didn't think it worked for me, to be honest. Okay. I felt the jokes just landed flat. But the kid, Roman playing Jojo was he's a kid. He did well. Yeah.

6:41KT: So do you is it just it it it felt too controversial for lack of a better word? Like, do you think that there is space in the realm of cinema to be able to satirize someone as terrible as Hitler?

6:58Oti: I think there is. I think growing up, we used to watch this Charlie Chaplin movie where he did exactly that. I think it was The Great Dictator.

6:58KT: What?

6:58Oti: Yep.

6:58KT: Really?

7:09KT: Yep. Well, this also shows the gap in generations between us. I don't

7:13Oti: It's not like he released it while I was still a youngin'.

7:13KT: I came out of the womb with a color television.

7:13Oti: Mate, back then, we just had a black and white TV. So Charlie Chaplin satirizing Hitler? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So didn't even notice that it was that old anyway. That's interesting. Until I got older. Anyway. Yeah.

7:38KT: Before I get into my first impressions, I did my learned pull one of my glasses. I love how I'm saying reading IMDb trivia is learned and you literally just referenced Chaplin. I am the worst fucking person. Anyway, one of the trivia was saying that in the book, Caging Skies, there was no fictionalized Hitler character. Oh. And that completely

8:02KT: distracted me while I was watching the film. Yes. I fucking check IMDb while I'm watching it. Yes. I take IMDb to bed. You don't know where else I put IMDb, and you don't need to know friends and lovers. But what do you think about that? Because I think a lot of my umming and ahing was about whether whether Hitler was necessary in this to find out that he wasn't even in the book. So this was an added addition, you know, probably from Taika.

8:29Oti: Do I think Hitler or seeing a sort of comical Hitler made any or added any value to the movie? I don't think it did. Yeah. I think seeing a kid battle with antisemitism that he's been taught while being in the sort of that wave of what was happening Mhmm. It's just shocking that if it wasn't there, I don't see why Hitler needed to be there or something like that.

8:58KT: But I feel like not just Hitler's character, but also there were a lot of things tonally, and we'll get to that when we talk about the themes, but I just wanna quickly say there were a lot of things that were so whimsy that got in the way of real emotion.

9:11KT: And I'll leave it for further discussion in the film, but, you know, it's it's very similar to Thor: Ragnarok where you're getting to a real vulnerable moment and then someone gets punched in the dick. Right?

9:11Oti: Yeah. He did that a lot. I think he took notice that the subject matter is too Super heavy. Yeah. Is super heavy. Mhmm. And the fact that yeah. He uses it as a fucking crutch.

9:11KT: I think I I wouldn't call it a crutch because it worked in Boy. It worked in Boy.

9:11Oti: But Boy, he didn't go he didn't do it in that to that degree.

9:43KT: We were left to simmer in those heavy moments longer than we were in this movie. Or maybe it was just because he was able to write truer to his experience. Maybe that's what it is. Because you have a similar dynamic. It's just how much do you wanna turn the dials of comedy and tragedy? Not steps, but we do love steps. So let's get into my first impressions or any first impressions that I have left, you know, a lot of the times, Whiplash, Uncut Gems, I talk about how these films aren't for me. It's

10:19KT: usually Yo Ho, all the bros. I love you bros, but I'm not the bros. Right? So even though I can see why people like it, usually I put my hands up and I say, it's not for me. Right? I don't think it's more the case here. I think it just wasn't. I wouldn't go all the way to say it wasn't necessary, I and I think it's a total emotional shift because if you've listened to the Boy episode, every repressed KT decade made a greatest hits in the Boy watching and also Boy recording

11:00KT: for our podcast. Right? And to go from that to, you know, I don't have any frame of reference. So maybe that's what it is, but I literally felt actually, there were only really two scenes that I felt actual emotion in this film. So I wouldn't say that I didn't like it because the film wasn't for me. I was just going to say it just didn't work for me. And tone is definitely something that we're going to talk about a lot. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of Hitler being satirized. Right?

11:36KT: Even though in Archer, we have Krieger and it's a joke that he's one of the Brazilian Hitler clones. Like, I think in those sort of, you know, shows or or, you know, vessels of entertainment, I can expect that. But this had kids in it. It was live action. It looks pretty true to life. Credit to Taika and his team because even though it wasn't a fully fledged war film, they got a lot of details historically accurate, including Sam Rockwell and Alfie Allen's character with the pink triangles at the end. Apparently, that was to signify

12:09KT: queer soldiers. Oh, really? Yeah. So, you know, there was a lot of accuracy. There was a lot of care. There was a lot of care to this film. I So don't wanna say that, you know, it was just for a buck or it was just for an award. I I definitely think a lot of time and attention went to this film, but the only way that I could watch this was to completely not think of the fact that Taika was playing Hitler. I think if I actually

12:38KT: digested that he was playing Hitler, I would have a hard time or even be able to finish the film. Because I think it's an interesting thing because you want kids to have accessible art to them so they can understand the world, especially when you're talking about indoctrination, it's not Jojo's fault. Right it's just unfortunate in his circumstances the time that he was living in the world he was being indoctrinated with some really terrible shit and it's disgusting but it's very understandable to make someone the enemy you need to demonize them

13:12KT: which took me back to high school in textbooks where, you know, native people would have would be described as savages by colonialists. Right? The only time I wanna hear or see the word savage is when we have Megan Thee body ody ody ody Stallion. Otherwise, I don't like, it just rubs me the wrong way, but that's exactly what it should be. Like, I don't think war stories and the atrocities of war are bedtime stories for kids. Maybe that's something that kids need to get older and actually learn the real truth instead of this because

13:51KT: is is that where we stop? And I'm not saying that the responsibility of the film is on Jojo Rabbit, but also at the same time, because of the rating, which is PG, meaning that younger people can watch this film, it kind of distorts it. If you're older and and even how skewed your Western textbooks are, you do have an understanding of who the good guys are and who the bad guys are and what satire is. If you're just a kid and you're watching this, you're not really it's not necessarily that critical thinking.

14:22KT: So maybe I am saying in a long wankery way that there is a responsibility in film. Because it's the same thing when, you know, when people talk about South Park just being about dicks, dicks, dicks, which it is, and we fucking love Mr. and Mrs. Garrison. But at the same time, there's a lot of commentary going on that that can only be harnessed if you're aware of what's going on, if you're in on it. You know what I'm saying? So

14:50KT: I love Taika. And, you know, if you've made it this far and and you're wondering why, you know, a Maori person would be making a film and and playing actual Hitler, he has Maori heritage, but he also has Jewish heritage. So I don't we talk about the FYR curriculum so if you learned that from here you're most welcome but I'm not sure if your credits transferred to anywhere that's recognizable but I think that is a lot for first impressions Yep. Wow. What a film. And usually

15:28KT: that means a good thing when I say it, but not in this case. So now we're going to dive into common and recurring themes that Taika has throughout his filmography. Shout outs to our patrons that were also able to contribute to these themes. Mhmm. So let's talk about the directing and the cinematography. From what I could see, from what I could read, Taika wanted to be able to portray Germany more realistic as opposed to the grittiness that you would see in a war film because it was, you know, it was a time of fashion

16:04KT: and innovation. There was a lot of vibrancy in Germany at the time. However, you know, wherever you are, however you are, however you wanna villainize it, it was a very vibrant, thriving place for a time. So Taika wanted to be able to display that. And and it's very notable when you look at the costumes as well in Jojo Rabbit. Yeah. Right? And like I mentioned before, the military outfits as well as the weaponry that gets used is very accurate as well. And, yeah, it was interesting, but I think it helped,

16:39KT: you know, inform to us that this isn't going to be walking on broken glass for two hours. Like, there was going to be some elements of levity, whether it's through the visuals or whether it's through the moments of reprieve. But how did you feel about the directing and also cinematography?

16:57Oti: It was really vivid. I think the pictures were were just coming off the screen for me. Yep. It was the attention to detail that he put and everything like you just said, the costumes, all the buildings, it just looks really authentic to the time, which is kudos to him. Know? A lot of the time with movies like this, they'll just not care that much. Yeah. So it goes to Taika's sort of state of mind on how he wants to portray his artwork.

17:28Oti: Yeah. And, yeah, I I couldn't fault it one bit. Like, everything looks so vibrant.

17:34KT: This kind of falls into this particular section. How did you feel of the device of shoes? Because that was, you know, quite an interesting sort of visual imagery that we have throughout the film, not a Jerome OT Tarantino version. They kept their shoes on.

17:58KT: But how did you feel with the use of shoes throughout this film?

17:58Oti: Yeah. I I don't think it was any sort of Tarantino fetish on Margot Robbie's feet.

18:08KT: Just literally hire her just for that. Yeah.

18:11Oti: It was was really interesting. I think the attention to detail there was for more for us to really understand or or realize

18:21Oti: maybe sooner than when Jojo realized that their mother was being their mother was hung. Yep. And because we saw that. We saw that. Or at least I did. When Jojo was still looking at the butterfly flying away on the floor Yeah. They had they had we had a a shot where we we saw their shoes, and I was like, fuck. We've seen those shoes before. Yeah. And it it was that moment where I was like, okay. This is going to be an emotional moment. Uh-huh. And it was one of the strongest scenes in the movie for me. Absolutely.

18:54Oti: Just seeing how Jojo reacted and responded to that, especially when the first time when he saw hanging people, they barely even had a look, you know? Yeah. Just didn't really care. It kind of reminded me of Vikings

19:07Oti: where we had baby Bjorn and Ragnar, and he was telling Bjorn to look

19:14Oti: because it's important that you know.

19:14KT: Sign of respect.

19:14Oti: Yeah. Exactly. And I think that was also a way to show us the mother's allegiance, where her allegiances lied. And and I think we didn't even see the feet of those people. We saw the whole shabam. It was a full shot thing.

19:33KT: So when it came to the mother, it just focused on the bottom half. Yeah. And, you know, Taika also mentions that he chose not to show Rosie's face because that was a very intimate moment and we didn't not that we didn't deserve, but we were not let in on that intimate moment with Jojo and Rosie. Yeah. That was for them. Yeah. Which is absolutely I absolutely love that decision because I'm trying to remember. I think it was Freddy vs. Jason. Yeah. I did it. Where the violence

20:10KT: doesn't show you every single etching of the organs, but you still get the notes of horror. And that's what I got as well. We didn't need to see Rosie's face. Right? We we knew what happened to Rosie, and we could, through empathy, you know, feel what Jojo was going through. And that was very effective. And I think that is, you know, if I could impart an honorary theme of Taika is he has a way of being able to display the emotional weight

20:46KT: of a scene building up to without taking you all the way there. And I guess depending on your life experiences, you're able to fill those gaps. Also a notable while we're talking about the shoes, you know, was a scene a couple of moments earlier in the film where Rosie is dancing and she's having a good time and there is a lot of focus on the shoes. It might just be the fact that they want us to be able to ingrain

21:15KT: image of the shoes, but it it it talks to her spirit and her wanting a better Germany.

21:21Oti: Yeah. We do see that she wants a better Germany, but for me, that scene I I get your point of it being an intimate moment that he didn't want us to let us in. But earlier, we had seen a full shot of everyone who's being hanged. And

21:21KT: But they're nondescript. They're nondescript. Unfortunately.

21:21Oti: They're nondescript, unfortunately. But just because we've bought into the character of of these people, I felt it a bit disrespectful. Okay.

21:44Oti: Don't get me wrong. Like, I don't want to see people being hung. I I don't want it. Just but that's because you've already shown us that moment to then exclude it just because it's a character that we do know. I feel like there's a level of respect where we have to apply the same standard across the board. And be it be it that we've seen or we've we've seen Rosie before and we know where her stance, what her stance is on the war. I don't know. I just felt a bit it

22:12Oti: could have been handled better. Or at least if it's not showing it, don't show it. Just show us the feet. Not just you're you're showing us the feet because it's an emotional payoff for Jojo.

22:12KT: Interesting. That's very interesting.

22:12Oti: That's the first thing came to my mind when I saw it. I was like, but why did you show us the other bits?

22:12KT: I I don't personally agree.

22:31Oti: But Which is fair enough. I just think if you're gonna show it, you show it for everyone. If not, just move along.

22:31KT: And that is exactly what we will do, my love.

22:41KT: Let's move on to the themes that we have for Taika's filmography. So this is concerning the tone. Usually, is quirky, it is eccentric. Ben, our beloved from Filmbusters, mentioned comedy as a way of dealing with harsh realities.

22:58Oti: From my first impressions, you know how I felt about the movie in terms of its comedic attempt. Yep. It just didn't land for me. It was there. They tried to do that. I was living in a world where okay. So I know the background of this. I know the story of this. Yeah. It's etched in my mind, but then there's this little stopgaps of you attempting comedy

23:22Oti: for some reason Yeah. That just didn't work for me. It felt like, oh, he knows that this is really sensitive, he just wants to backtrack a bit. And just didn't I just didn't appreciate it. I felt like if you're going to delve into following Jojo's journey into discovering for himself that Uh-huh. What what what Hitler and the elk were doing back then Yep. Then take us through that journey,

23:47Oti: unfiltered, and let's see Jojo through the journey and him having to navigate that way for himself Yep. Rather than us navigating a a journey where we where we have to jump through hurdles of comedic attempt that just didn't land for me. So I felt like I was being cheated of having a truly emotional connection with the story. Yep. And not necessarily the characters because Jojo,

24:10Oti: you you do resonate with him to some degree, and you do feel for him. Mhmm. But I felt like it could have been more if he was allowed to feel it more. And I guess that maybe would change the ratings a bit. If you're doing it If you're gonna do it, do it right.

24:25KT: Mhmm. Well, I love that cinephile Oti is well and truly in the building, but we're just qualifying whether that quirky eccentric tone is in the film. I was getting a full dissertation from you. We're just acknowledging. It's a yes. It is a resounding yes. You know, we've both mentioned how it didn't really work. In regards to Ben's statement about comedy as a way of dealing with harsh realities, I felt like they said they had com comedic dialogue

24:58KT: in the film, but that wasn't really helping Jojo get through the quandaries that he had. Mm-mm. So in that sense, it's it's a baby no, but in also that sense, it's a fully fledged hulking yes in regards to the tone. Even though it seems we both agree that the tone just didn't work for us. Because arguably, there are two different tones.

25:22KT: Yeah. And it's a lot to go back and forth on them and it just didn't work for us. But let's move on. And this theme is in regards to the story. So shout out to our smoke and mirrors patrons belonging. All of the films have a common thread of home and finding your place in it.

25:41Oti: Yeah. I think lightly on on Jojo's bit. Mhmm. Because we see him trying to navigate a world where he is born believing some really heinous stuff. Yep. He just needs to figure out that all these things that he's being told are lies. Yeah. So there's a sense of him finding home in in in in a new Germany where everything that he was brought up believing is a complete falsehood.

26:08KT: And that's exactly it. The the thread of belonging was definitely Jojo's journey throughout here. Given the fact that Taika is integrated in this, it was a bizarre adventure for Jojo, would you say? Was that an anime reference?

26:26Oti: It sure was.

26:28KT: I I had problems with Jojo's character specifically. I think it's more to do with the writing of it because he kind of was a jerk. Aside from the unwelcome indoctrination that he had, There was a lot of toxic gender roles as well that he had. That's very 2021 KT, but you're most welcome to For Your Reference, friends and lovers. But we'll get to that. But, yeah, definitely in that regard, it's a full on tick for belonging. Let's

26:59KT: move on to themes that surround characters. So in this particular point, we have childlike wonder. So Julio from the contrarian says precocious kids and Paul from Filmbusters, the lovable fool.

27:13Oti: I don't think either being bet.

27:16KT: Yeah. Because you don't wanna be the one saying that Taika's character is a lovable fool, and good luck trying to get that sound bite. I wasn't gonna say that full sentence.

27:27Oti: Yeah. That was just I don't think he was met at all. I think Jojo's a completely different character from that, and Taika's representation of Hitler isn't It either.

27:38KT: Yeah. The next character that we have on our themes is a father son dynamic. Actually, this is a good question to tackle now. Do you feel like a lot of the, you know, imaginary friend Hitler was also a proxy for Jojo's father?

27:38Oti: No.

28:02KT: Okay. So he he filled that void somewhere else?

28:02Oti: He does miss his father. That much is clear. You know? It's brought up a couple of times in the movie to a point where we see Rosie, Scarlett's character Mhmm. Portray the father when she had inadvertently gotten angry at Jojo. I didn't care for that scene. But Yeah. But I think Hitler's representation, at least in Jojo's mind, is him proving his his nationalism. Okay. Because we know fully well, especially, I think Rosie herself said that Jojo is fully ingrained in all this, and he's

28:47Oti: really buying into this mantra that the Nazis were trying to pedal.

28:54KT: Well, there's a difference. There's regurgitating what you've been taught, and there's actually believing and acting on what you've been taught. And I feel like he was kind of in the former, not the latter, because he was still a 10 year old kid. He was a 10 year old kid. And Even though in Mormonism, you can get baptized at eight because you can make your own decisions.

29:07Oti: I know you're a 10 year old kid, and I think we covered a lot of this when we also talked about Luce, because Luce was a Luce was a child soldier. And we had to deal with those those facets where the nuances where

29:24Oti: him being implanted into a different country, a different culture, and a different society that that just didn't try to understand him Yep. Caused a lot of issues. And they didn't care to get his real name. Yeah. So with Jojo, I just felt that he truly just wanted to make it, to make it to the top where he is the soldier that, you know, probably saw under Hitler or whatever. I truly just believe that, because we're told the same thing by Rosie when she's talking to

29:56Oti: Elsa. Mhmm. That if if he found out, he'd definitely tell because he believes in the nationalism and all that bullshit.

30:02KT: Well well, I think that was kind of, you know, the trepidation that Rosie had. But a very poignant quote from Elsa was, you're not a Nazi Jojo. You're a 10 year old kid who likes dressing up in a funny uniform and wants to be part of a club. And that goes back to our smoke and mirror pals where they're talking about belonging. You know, whether warranted or not, we do talk about institutionalized religion and how a lot of it is emotional, that sense of community,

30:37KT: wanting to feel that you're part of something as opposed to the actual gospels or the ancient sort of texts Yeah. Or the disciplinary ideologies. And I love that. I I love that they have that line in there because that will stick with me. Because like I said, there there there's a difference between regurgitating what you've been told and actually acting and willfully moving your life in that direction.

31:05Oti: Like, we can agree to disagree. I just felt that he was fully ingrained in it, whether he wanted 10 year old. As a 10 year old, whether he wanted it or not. We've seen the psychology of child soldiers everywhere. We know how it all happens, and he just wanted to do something that he's been taught. Yeah. It's not his fault. It's just that he believed it. Yeah. But And some him spending

31:27Oti: time with Elsa and and trying to write this book is the start of the journey where he started learning that all these things were all lies.

31:27KT: But that's the point. He's able to change his opinion. So in that sense, it is more him regurgitating what he's been taught.

31:42KT: He doesn't necessarily mutually exclusive. But what I'm saying is he still has the ability to be teachable. Yeah. And that's the difference. It's not even you saw later on in the film, he wasn't ready to kill other people just because they didn't look like him. Right? So it wasn't fully embedded in him. He wasn't going to go out and to kill people based on his ideologies. And that's the difference, my love. Like, a lot of us have grown up in particular religions

32:13KT: and we were taught things and we spout very hateful things. But then you get to an age and you're like, why the fuck did I even think that was okay for me to even comment on other people's lives? To even have that umbrit to even have that privilege to be able to speak so nasty to people just because religion or ideologies. And that's what I'm saying. Jojo had the potential to change. He had the potential to actually hold himself to account.

32:43Oti: Fair enough.

32:44KT: And we said this in, I think, I May Destroy You. We love Michaela Coel, shout out, where it comes to a point where your parents' ignorances or even in this case, institutional ignorances become your own. And I don't think Jojo was at that point yet. I think he was still malleable, and he was still open to the wonders of the world. And that might just be credit to Rosie as well. Yeah. I'm not saying that he wasn't

33:11Oti: able to change. I'm just saying he believed the shit he was taught because he doesn't know any better.

33:11KT: But what does believe mean?

33:11Oti: Believe means that he knows that all these things that he's been told are truth.

33:23KT: Yeah.

33:24Oti: I know. To the point where Rosie knew very well, if he found out that Elsa was hiding there, the shit was over.

33:24KT: But he's spouting it as a reflex, not necessarily

33:24Oti: Regardless of whether or not, it was enough for Rosie, his mother, to believe that. So who am I to sit here and say, if his mother knows that much to say that to Elsa, who am I to deny it? I'm going with what's written. In the ancient texts.

33:49KT: In the ancient texts of Oti, the lost scrolls that are not part of the official FYR gospel.

33:55Oti: Mate, I'm just saying what exactly Rosie said. I'm not even trying to mind bend

34:01KT: If you wanna take it that way, there are a lot of instances where parents choose not to and not acknowledge their children for who they are either.

34:10Oti: Cool. I just feel like I'm not going to be in a point where I believe that, oh, he he was just regurgitating things because he didn't want to believe it. I feel like he believed it because he didn't know any better. And, of course, he can change, and we saw his process of changing Uh-huh.

34:42KT: Have you got different ho takes in different area codes?

34:44Oti: Oh, I sure do. I sure do. Which I think we'll get to other end of this. Oh my.

34:51KT: At my end of this? Mhmm. Oh my. Let's move on. Oh, I I I feel like I could go somewhere else right now, but let's The next theme that we have for Taika's filmography is he usually makes a cameo. That that's an easy one. Yeah. He's he's playing Hitler. Yeah. We don't need to spend more time on that. The last theme that we have before we get into general discussion about Jojo Rabbit is real people. So shout out to Ben again, real people as fantasy figures. Yeah. That also gets covered by Hitler himself. Yeah.

35:27KT: And if friends and lovers, you haven't checked out Filmbusters, they did a very lovely end of 2020 episode where Ben famously mentioned that he has no interest in watching Jojo Rabbit because of the way that Hitler is portrayed or even the fact that it's done in this sort of way. So I would love to know, Ben, if you've watched it now, if you're listening.

35:47Oti: Wow.

35:48KT: Yeah. But that's a full on tick. I don't think we need to have any sort of conflict about that. Alright. So let's get into some general discussions because we were kind of doing it already. Where would you like to go, my love?

35:48Oti: I'd like to start with the one and only Jojo.

35:48KT: Alright.

36:04Oti: He is I feel like because he's a 10 year old kid, we can't hold a lot of the things that he does up to criticism because he's a fucking 10 year old kid.

36:04KT: Woah. Did you not hear yourself two minutes ago, you dickhead?

36:04Oti: What?

36:19KT: You just said that he fully believed everything and he was maliciously conniving everyone around him.

36:23Oti: I didn't say he was maliciously conniving everyone. I was saying he fully believed

36:30Oti: whatever Kool-Aid he was drinking was right because he didn't know any better. That's different from him being malicious. He wasn't gonna be malicious. He was just being himself. And he himself knew that whatever he's been told from up above is the correct is the gospel truth. Okay. So to me, I just wanna say that Jojo being 10 year old, I felt was a fucking crutch because we can't hold anything or any criticism up to up to up to scratch because he's a fucking kid.

37:00KT: So you want all kid actors to reflect Grease's age? So you want all of the kids in movies to be 40 year olds so we can hold them to account?

37:10Oti: Yeah. There's a reason why they chose a cute kid to play that role. Yeah. He was very cute. He he was casting. Shout outs to the casting. If they casted a 40 year old to play that role as a 10 year old kid, that would have been completely different.

37:22KT: Did you see Olivia Newton-John uniform?

37:27Oti: Anyway, Jojo was interesting. I think his journey was was one of just learning about everything that he's been told was shit, I think. His relationship his his relationship, especially with Yorkie, who seemed to be more understanding or at least understand all this concept of what everything meant more than Jojo. He felt more evolved in that sense. Okay. Where Jojo just felt naive

37:56Oti: and in a state where ignorance is bliss. But in him learning and him meeting Elsa, then all that started to change. What I didn't appreciate was the love angle because, come on, mate. In everything else that we've said, because he's fucking 10, that holds true to the fact that, mate, you can't have butterflies. Fucking 10, mate.

38:10KT: I think, yeah, I definitely think a failing in this film was they tried to create not Actually, no. There were moments where they tried to show to us that Elsa was feeling away about Jojo, and I felt cringe. I felt gross. It could've you know what? Let's normalize unnecessary love stories and finding familial love with strangers at most.

38:37Oti: You know what this perpetuates? A male can't be a friend with a female because there's always this innuendos of, oh, he just wants he has romantic feelings or anything like that. Fuck sex. Even kids, a 10 year old kid who's being taught how to be the worst sort of human being that's possible out there has fucking butterflies for what? Well, straight men are annoying. So also Why not just you know, and I think at the end of it, try to salvage it by saying, oh, it's all

39:10Oti: familial love rather than it's No. That was really But that was just at the end and I just like, it's familial.

39:17KT: Yeah. That was me trying to sew my own, like, Cinderella pumpkin dress. Like, that just wasn't gonna work. At the start, should have just been familial love. Familial love. His sister died. So why don't just have that proxy for the sister.

39:30Oti: Elsa mimicked Inge, which was, you know, hint hint, mate. Move away from fucking yeah, move away from fucking fucking.

39:44KT: Okay. So let's talk about Jojo as a character. And, you know, if if we've been well hydrated, we've drunk our water, we've been eating vegetables, if we are fully ready to focus, there is a lot to fucking unpack about Jojo's character. We can talk about the ideologies, the fact that he was indoctrinated with some terrible ideologies. He was a child soldier.

40:07KT: As much as they put the fluff and the cotton candy on this film, he was going through some real shit. Yorkie as well, like you mentioned, but ignorant bliss as you like to say. So there's that. But also at the same time, there were other ignorances that I don't know where they came from. I would say perhaps maybe it was from his father because I doubt that Rosie would be the person that would reinforce these ideals.

40:35KT: But near the end of the film was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen in a PG film.

40:35Oti: What was that?

40:35KT: Was him telling Elsa that they won the war. I am sorry. Jojo, he was old enough to be able to acknowledge that there were people behind the groups that you spawn hatred. Right? He was able to see Elsa as a person beyond Jews. Right? So if he's old enough to be able to identify that, he needs to be old enough to know when he's hurt someone.

41:09KT: And that has nothing to do with the indoctrination. Mhmm. Maybe it does. Come and fight me, motherfuckers. But that has nothing to do with the indoctrination. He had this selfish need of romantic love to keep her there. To keep her there means that she's stuck in hiding and in fear for the rest of her life. And I don't fucking care. I will fight everyone. Oh, he's just a kid. He just wanted her to stay around and whatever. Fuck off. Because that is a real terrible human emotion.

41:44KT: It is greed. It is greed to the base level. I get it. But at the same time, you don't act on it. And he willfully told Elsa that she's not safe to come out only because he wanted her to stay around. Now, if we're talking about familial love, if they had spun it right from the very start of the film that Elsa was a proxy for his sister and he had just lost his mother,

42:10KT: and he didn't wanna be alone in this world, and he had created a familial bond with Elsa because his sister's not around and his mom just died, I would grip to that so fucking hard. But no, it was him having feelings and and drawing all of these torture methods for fucking Nathan. What the fuck did Nathan do to you? Anyway but you see what I'm saying? It just became this really disgusting thing. Because really, if we were talking about 40 year old Grease actors, we would say that Jojo's fucking a disgrace.

42:41Oti: Yeah. And here and here here in lies my whole take.

42:41KT: Oh my.

42:46KT: You're you're really doubling down on the hoes. Okay.

42:50Oti: Jojo's character development isn't fully realized in this movie. It is faux development. It is fucking faux development. Yeah. Pho development. He can dip it in with dip your bread in it. Starring George Michael with Michael Cera. It's ridiculous. Even the last thing we're supposed to mean everything with his final encounter with Hitler Yeah. He's not angry at him because of all the lies or whatever. It's just because he realized, he lied to me. Not because of the gravitas of what that means. Not be not of the gravitas that thousands of people have fucking died.

43:29KT: He's disbanding the indoctrination, and we didn't get that in that scene. Yeah. It felt like a cheap cheap

43:36Oti: it felt like a cheap date. You've been taken to fucking Maccas. Why are you looking at me so intently, my love? You've been taking fucking Maccas instead of a three heart up. Uh-huh. It felt cheap. It felt undeserved of what they were trying to say. If you're satiricalizing fucking Hitler, make the ending fucking grandiose,

43:55Oti: not a kid coming there at the end and not even realizing the grandiose of the decisions he had to make. He was just like, fuck off Hitler and then kick You lied to me, bitch. That's not the war that's not the taking hour support. I was that's not the taking hour I subscribed to when watching this movie. Yeah. Show me a kid who's involved and learned that everything, every decision that these people have made Yeah. Hurt thousands of people. Yeah. Show the empathy.

44:20Oti: There's nothing like that. Because after that, he fucking goes back to to lie to Elsa. And I was so angry. I was fucking pissed off at that point. I was like, why did I waste fucking an hour and a half to watch this dread when I could have watched something else?

44:20KT: Oh, Dredd. Shout out to Karl Urban and Thor: Ragnarok.

44:20Oti: Because, oh, I just the ending ruined everything for me because I felt like if Jojo's learning isn't everything in the movie, then what fucking is? Yeah. Exactly. If the movie's fucking PG

44:51Oti: and you're portraying Hitler as some as some fucking mystical comedic creature, then make the learning better. Make the learning the most important thing in Jojo's in the movie, in Jojo's learning.

45:02KT: You said mystical, and now I'm just thinking about that song. Danger. But I, a 100, a million in every denari agree with you because film in Babe lore, Babe was rated G. And we were able to build so much emotion and be able to grab so much in regards to the themes of the film and how it translates to human life in a G rated film. Yeah.

45:32Oti: And you know what? People will come and say he's a 10 year old kid that he can't really understand. He can fucking understand. Yeah. Absolutely, he can understand. And to to just make him, you lied to me, so piss off? Yeah. No. I'm not subscribing to that. Not when it comes to the history of of what this means. Yeah. Not when it comes to the actions of people that has ruined millions of lives.

45:57KT: I do not want to be around an adult that at 10 years old was willfully ready to lie to a girl, perhaps a young woman, that she had to hide in a cupboard for the rest of her life because he wanted her around. I do not wanna be around those adults, and that is the problem. Yes, he's 10 years old, but again, according to the Mormon teachings, at eight years old, you can make your own decisions. That's why you get baptized. So Jojo was old enough to know that what he was doing was harmfully

46:30KT: catastrophic to other people. It was willfully hurtful.

46:33Oti: He knew enough to deceive Elsa at the end. He knew. Yeah. Whether those feelings were mixed up and he didn't know if he was familial or romantic feelings Uh-huh. Fucking doesn't matter. Yeah. Establish this as familial love so that it's a bond between sister and brother, and he doesn't even need to wonder if he'll be alone because the war is over, because you have a fucking sister at the end of it. Yeah. Not because you oh, maybe this could have been romantic, but you're too old anyway. Fuck off. Yeah. Cheap writing, cheap story,

47:07Oti: and he doesn't deserve a fucking Oscar just because of that fucking ending. It was shit. It's the fucking Green Book reimagining again and again. It's just fucking ridiculous. I don't even know. I I I feel like I'm I'm done just talking about that fucking ending. Because I felt like if you're gonna sit with sit me through all that just to get a fucking payoff that the kid doesn't even fucking land the emotional trauma of everything because of his fucking kid or because, I don't know, reasons?

47:35Oti: No. No. I didn't subscribe to that. To portray it as deep because a kid has kicked Hitler out of fucking window because he lied? Yeah. That's not the reason why Hitler needed to go out of that window.

47:47Oti: Yeah. That's the least of the reasons Hitler needed to go out of that window. Yeah. If you're bringing Hitler into the screen because he wasn't even there in the book. If you're portraying him and you're bringing him back to life, make the ending count. Yeah. Make the fucking ending count. And a lie is not what he needed to go out for.

48:08KT: Welcome one. Welcome all, friends and lovers, to the final stage of the final boss. It is Oti with his motherfucking ho takes. I'm not even going to stand in the line of your punching suit. I just wanna make it very clear that I agree with you in every single facet. And I do wonder, and I do think I am sixty minuting myself, that I definitely would've not had so much umbrage with this film if Hitler wasn't in it. And if there was more scrupulous critical thinking,

48:42KT: because I believe even though the prefrontal cortex isn't developed, I do feel like 10 year olds are still able to develop critical thinking. That what you were told doesn't necessarily denote to the reality and the humanity of people that you come across in your day to day life. That toxicity

49:01KT: with Jojo and Elsa, I will never get over. And that has nothing to do with Hitler, but also I was struggling to even get through the film as it was. So I just wanna say, I'm in your corner of the ring, brother. You don't need to come for me, brother.

49:18Oti: You know what? Like, I get why people would vote for this because it's different. It's whimsical. It's like fucking Wes Anderson had a baby with Taika and made this little weird movie. I I get it. Uh-huh. And I get why it won an Oscar. I actually don't get it personally. I I understand. I understand the aspects of why it won. But do I agree with it? I don't. Mhmm. Because I felt

49:18KT: We know you called it the fucking Green Book iteration.

49:46Oti: Some things are just like, if you're telling a story and the payoff isn't there Yeah. When it's super sensitive and the payoff isn't there, then I feel like it's irresponsible. Because if kids are watching it, then it's just a matter of what the kid takes out of it. What does the kid take out of it? Does the parent is it is it or the parent to now sit down and talk to the kid about, hey. You know this is what happened. Yeah. The movie should be responsible

50:12Oti: enough to deal with that subject matter in a in in a civilized way so that Yeah. At least at the end of it, Hitler shoving down the window is for the reasons that he needed to go down. And it's a fucking triumphant moment. Yeah. Make the payoff count. Yeah. Just missed opportunities, man. Missed opportunities.

50:31KT: Oh, I get it. I I think the point is we came into a film with the protagonist of Jojo, you know, traversing the world that he's been indoctrinated in and realizing that people are just fucking people and that's how you should treat them, not demonize them or put horns on them. But we didn't learn anything and he didn't learn anything. And I think that's the crux of what the problem is with Jojo Rabbit. Everything that I felt in Boy, I did not feel in Jojo Rabbit. Oti, my love. We talk about being wankers

51:10KT: in films, but also in actual restaurant degustations. Do you remember there was a certain course that we had at a particular restaurant where they were trying to give us ice cream in parsnip cones? Do you fucking remember that? I do. And, you know, a lot of the time there's an ambiance and I'm sure there's a lot of smell, scent therapy aside from Oti and his crotch, which is where I like to go. But you know, there's a whole orchestration to build the experience of a degustation.

51:45KT: And at first we're like, why the fuck are you giving us ice cream in a parsnip cone? Right? But we wanted to feel like we were part of it. Part of the snootiness, part of the hypocrisy of everything. So we started to, you know, eat it and the ice cream was great, but the parsnip was a fucking parsnip. It did not belong in a dessert course of a degustation. And that's how I felt about Jojo Rabbit. Again, we said we were wankers. You were most welcome. Yeah. Yeah.

52:16Oti: I I don't think I'd ever watch this again. No. I probably don't would even remember it months from now, and I wouldn't want to.

52:25KT: You mentioned earlier that there was a particular scene or moment in the film that was etched in your mind. But the interesting thing about this is even with the inclusion of Hitler being satirized and the fact that this is based in a very vibrant Germany when it was thriving, I just don't think I will recall this. I don't think this film lives on with me beyond this experience. After this podcast, it's just a matter of purging our minds, man. I hope you come and look for your host stakes in me. Well,

53:01KT: before we finish off, let's give some credit to the very expensive cast that we had in Jojo Rabbit. People that we haven't even talked about at all. I think this is the first time that Sam Rockwell has made an appearance in this podcast.

53:16Oti: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He did save Jojo at the end. He even saved him when he did he realized pretty quickly that Elsa. Elsa wasn't Elsa was the Jew that Jojo kept on talking about. Yeah. So kudos to Sam Rockwell's performance in him.

53:31KT: I just feel about Sam Rockwell because I you know, like Clive Owen, I don't think I've watched a lot of Sam Rockwell films. So how do you feel about Sam Rockwell in general?

53:45Oti: Well, I think he's a cool guy. I think he's all Vic Reynolds and F Is for Family.

53:45KT: Oh, okay. I love Sam Rockwell, but he's had a fully fledged career. He's had a fully fledged career before F Is for Family.

53:57KT: You are fired as the pop culture correspondent, Oti. How dare

54:02Oti: I thought I'd get extra points for mentioning F Is for Family, so

54:06KT: How did you feel about Alfie Allen? And you were so surprised at our Game of Thrones episode, not knowing that Alfie is the brother to Lily Allen, your lady love.

54:13Oti: Yeah. That was really interesting to know, especially when Lily Allen was meant to be in Game of Thrones.

54:22KT: Yeah. But you don't wanna be fingered by your brother on national TV international TV, mind you.

54:27Oti: Well, they'll just be competing with the Lannisters. But this time, it'll be real. But that's literal. Literally. Yeah.

54:37KT: No. Don't Key and Peele can't even save you now, by the way.

54:42Oti: Oh, man. What you do, man? What We Do in the Shadows? No one's meant to judge.

54:49KT: Speaking of people that we shouldn't judge, but has a face that you just wanna judge, Stephen Merchant plays Deertz.

54:56Oti: He does, doesn't he?

54:58KT: It's interesting that it took you a while to realize that was Stephen Merchant. Yeah. I think it was a hair hairstyle or I don't know. He had a hat on, didn't he? Well, the interesting thing is in the first Boys episode that we covered in our film of season one, I mentioned that Simon Pegg has a fucking British face and Stephen Merchant, by God, Thor, or every thunder, Stephen Merchant has a fucking British face. Yeah. Alright. I

55:30KT: think we had the pressure cooker on in this recording, Oti. I feel like I went a bit DMX on it, but it deserved it. You live in Tupac, Hit 'Em Up when you go into DMX mode, my love. If you're not a Makaveli fan growing up, I don't know what you missed the trick. Yeah. Killuminati all up in your body, friends and lovers. Is there anyone else or anything else that you wanna cover before we move on?

55:30Oti: No. I'm done with this me.

56:03KT: And that my friends and lovers is the mic drop of Oti retiring. Alright. Well, thank you so much, friends and lovers, joining us on this historical, satirical, maybe not successful portrayal in cinema. We appreciate you guys so much. Usually, this is where we foray into recommendations. But because this is a month long celebration of tantalizing Taika Waititi tastetations, we are going to recommend the set menu of Thor: Ragnarok, Boy,

56:39KT: and Jojo Rabbit. You can skip Jojo Rabbit, but, yeah, watch the other two. Well, if you'd like to know Oti's real feelings on Twitter and Instagram, we're at Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Apple Podcasts if you like to leave a rating or review, and we'll see you guys next course. See you. Bon appetit, motherfuckers.