John Wick: Chapter 4 – Friend and Lover Fu

Full transcript of John Wick: Chapter 4 – Friend and Lover Fu.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and it is another edition to the Jonathan Wickenston. Yeah, I'm thinking I'm back. It is spicy, it is mu. Thank you friends and lovers for joining us along in this journey. Um, sometimes in all of our respective journeys, um, you know, actors on screen in TV and film and also in our hearts, um, You know, leave us and, you know, we talked about Michael K. Williams, um, in breaking recently. Um, I will also like to, um, give tribute to the love and the legacy to Lance We definitely have a Wire episode, but I will always remember when are you gonna play? It's raining men. It's raining men. Hallelujah. It's raining. May we dedicate all of the gay hymns, Key & Peele reference to Lance Reddick, the Life Legacy, rest in power. Let's get on with

1:24KT: Hey friends and gun fu pistol fu reload. Fu car fu motorcycle fu toque fu dog fu horse fu knife fu katana fu dfu can fu card fu napkin, fu pencil fu mira fu water fu belt fu doorbell, fu drum fufu and friends and lover fu, friends and lovers.

1:48Oti: and any other round fu oughta throw in there.

1:52KT: Just say you didn't make a fucking list. welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast, where perhaps someone is more researched than the other. You got your host KT

2:03Oti: and non-researched Oti,

2:06KT: but ever so learned and SPLU in our household. assume the fighting stance for round one of Wick notebook sketches. Chonky boi action and shadow noodle slurping. Take a seat at the high table with Jonathan Wickenston, chapter four. This motherfucking week.

2:26Oti: Woohoo.

2:27KT: woo. We were but to baby A We Baby Shamus. When we covered Jonathan Wickenston, all three films in 2019. Oti.

2:38Oti: Mm-hmm.

2:39KT: who would've known we would've got to where we are. Thank you to HARs and the team at Studio Canal. We did have the opportunity to go to the preview screening. balls to the wall. Action.

2:51Oti: I was biting my tongue, trying not to tell anyone about it.

2:55KT: Okay. You unique Oti virus.

2:58Oti: He's one of the last OGs.

3:00KT: Yeah, that's one way to say it. Let's get into general information so we can get right into the MU center.

3:11Oti: Oh,

3:12KT: Not many licks will get me there.

3:15Oti: see how many

3:16KT: We're gonna become a Donnie Yen podcast is essentially what I'm saying in regards to director. This is very Ra ra ra, to have the same director, four films into a franchise. We have the ever-lauded Chad Stahelski. And I guess while we're here, I would love to see a universe where we see Chad Stahelski and Don Mancini tee him up together. I think that I, I don't get paid the big bucks, but I definitely got some my ideas that will absolutely stand. Um, speaking of, based on characters by Derek Kolstad, I did notice that he didn't have writing credits for this, which perhaps is the, um, foreboding smoking gun, at least for.

4:00KT: um, in regards to writers, we have Shay Hatten, who is credited for Army of the Dead, which we enjoy in the For Your Reference household, um, as well as Day Shift, which is something that we also watched in the For Your Reference household. Michael Finch credited, uh, for the 2010 Predators as well as American Assassin. This was released outta Studio Canal in March of 2023. A budget. Of 90 million and it's only been out probably less than a week right now with a worldwide gross of 137.5 million, Oti.

4:35Oti: Woohoo.

4:37KT: woo. Can I get a yeha? in way of cast. Wow. Wow, wow. And we talk about a firm foundation. We absolutely have a firm foundation in this franchise. Keanu Reeves, Laurence Fishburne. Rest, love and peace and power, Lance Reddick, Ian McShane. Of course, we have some newcomers that really bring some richness to Jonathan Wickenston, chapter four, we have Donnie Yen, Hiroyuki Sanada, but we also watched an interview where Keanu Reeves said Sanada. So, um, correct me if I'm wrong, friends and lovers, Bill Skarsgård, Shamier Anderson, as well as Clancy Brown. So nice. Um, so let's get into first impressions. Um, like we said, friends and lovers, if you love us, you probably shouldn't listen to our old catalog. Just know that we've come very far from, um, our early days in the podcast. But we have covered the first three, um, John Wick films and we're very excited. We were so excited that we.

5:46KT: All of the films leading up to four. And I'm glad we did because not only did it color our experience, if you'll pardon the pun, because of the beautiful color grading and cinematography, but also it's just such a fun fucking ride, man. Like it was just nice. And you know, we've been watching a lot of, um, quality. Definitely, um, but obviously a lot of heavy stuff recently, so it's nice to be able to, you know, let our hair down and keep our bosoms, um, warm in the, um, trusted hands in this

6:20Oti: A hundred percent. Where can I start? It was such a thrilling, immersive experience. With its high octane action, breathtaking stunt choreography. Oh my. You know, I love a good world building. Can you even picture how we started from John Wick and where we've ended up, and even something like the cinematography you. You, you, you just notice how intense each scene is. You can tell the details they've put in the, the work they've done, and we get new characters to boot. Oh my, I, I really just love this so, so much. It's the encapsulation of what an action movie It goes above and beyond

7:12Oti: Anything else has to fall under the table of John. If it labels itself, action.

7:19KT: Yeah, buddy. Oh, I absolutely, absolutely agree. It was a tantalising offering to an already solid f.

7:30Oti: Facts,

7:31KT: Slick action. Scrumptious visuals and top tier cast additions made this an epic ra.

7:41Oti: It. Sure.

7:42KT: Well sit on my lap and find out, Oti. It's gonna be a bumpy ride. Oh wow. It was so great and it was so great to be in the cinema. Um, and you know, in that preview sort of screening, we were really witnessing something really special in the time of. Man, man, man, man, man, man. Well, we, you know, we talked about, um, Jordan Peele, how we kind of unofficially over the years have done a Reference Degustation. I guess in this sense we've kind of unofficially done Aki, um, Reference Degustation. You know, he is also, um, pegged to do as.

8:26Oti: nice

8:29KT: that, that's like one in the many of the bill, um, that he has at the moment. It's an exciting time to be in this Stahelski age, I must say. But, um, but let's do it Oti. Be like Matt Damon because fortune favors

8:45Oti: the brave.

8:46KT: It sure does. Let's do a definitive ranking. Where, where are the Jonathan Wickenston films sitting?

8:52Oti: Oh, I'm to, I'm torn between Parabellum and four. first's, the first

8:59KT: far. Oh, bruh. Can we start at the bottom?

9:01Oti: The bottom has to be chapter two.

9:03KT: Two, yeah. Okay. Agree.

9:04Oti: And then for me, one follows that and

9:07KT: oh boo.

9:08Oti: it will be a conflict between three and four.

9:11KT: You are not worth your weight in this town, sir. Wow.

9:17Oti: No, you, you know why? You know why for, if the aspects in the movie, and I'm pretty sure we'll get to it later. The aspects in the movie while we're watching it, I felt it kind of pulled me away from. Sort of the realism of the walls that they've already built around John Wick, which

9:35KT: is a good thing or a bad

9:36Oti: which I felt was a bad

9:38KT: Okay.

9:39Oti: Because it just didn't make sense to me that So I was like, oh, I noticed it, and then it kept on happening and I was like, bra, just, just take a, take a take a step back and let's obey the laws of this world.

9:53KT: Yeah, no, I, I definitely agree with that. Absolutely. So are we saying you can have a tied first, or are you, do you have to give proper numbers Okay. I have a tied first as well.

10:06Oti: Mm-hmm.

10:07KT: So my last is chapter two.

10:10Oti: All right.

10:12KT: My third is chapter. But it's a small margin. It's a small margin. And tied for first is chapter one and Parabellum.

10:23Oti: Okay. Because it's wild. I remember so fondly watching chapter one. Yeah. But when we went back and rewatched it recently, I was like, there's so little in this movie that, I dunno why I loved it so much outside of the action and story-wise it had, so it had very little happening for it.

10:44KT: Okay, so like the wife wasn't worth it the fifth time watching it. she's not your, um, she wasn't your Sura in Spartacus. She wasn't your Tata in Naco

10:59Oti: No, he just felt, I, I, I do remember how little he had.

11:02KT: Oh, boo. Okay. We're gonna fight. This is For Your Reference, not for your rankings. I'm gonna

11:09Oti: I hate it. I I still love it. I

11:12KT: gonna push you off a two story building and see if you make it. Wow, really? Okay. Well I, I guess there's no point. Cause you know, if I can quote Lebowski, that's just your opinion, man. So I would say you're wrong. Um, but I would also say that's just your opinion, man. But we've talked about this before. You know, my core is resonance and emotion. So obviously the. Is is the top for me. Anything above that is in credit to the first film, in my Right, I know. But for you, and then I guess, cause we're also talking about Spartacus again, you know, rest and love and peace and power Andy Whitfield, there was a, like, there was a legitimate reason that they had to change the actor, the lead actor in Spartacus, right?

12:03Oti: Mm-hmm.

12:03KT: But for me, that means it's never going to hit as hard as it. initially because that's who I fell in love with. That's where I was. And I think for you, you have a bit more stretching and leniency with that. Um, and you also enjoy action. So it makes sense that you would put four. At the top. Um, I do have like a general theme about expanding the world so we can talk about my qualms, quarrels, and quandaries. Um, cause a lot of it is about the storytelling. Um, but what I will say, do you have any sort of reason why two is at the bottom?

12:40Oti: So it's, it's pretty much the epicenter of them trying to expand the world.

12:44KT: Yeah.

12:45Oti: And in that there's so many things that, you know, they're trying to put in there to continue, you know? Yeah. Because we're thinking about, oh, we'll probably do three, four, or five or whatever.

12:56KT: Yeah.

12:57Oti: So it didn't, there are aspects in the movie, I was like, uh, this feels a bit forced a bit, you know,

13:03KT: because the first John Wick was so insular, they had to build from scratch in number two. So a lot of the, the emotional sort of beats that we would expect in the first, um, you know, was sacrificed in order to, you know, build more of a platform to work

13:24Oti: by your style. Shouldn't chapter two be your number one then? Because it's pretty much the basis of what we have up until four.

13:31KT: Abacus

13:33Oti: Abacus is functionally fine, man. All my fingers are like,

13:36KT: yeah, your fingers are fine, but your abacus

13:38Oti: is not the

13:39KT: is not math. But the reason why I say that, keep that in mind when we talk about expanding the world, and I guess that will pepper in how I feel about chapter four. Um, but let's start off with some themes that we have. Um, I do wanna, I do wanna address the fat suit, uh, elephant in the Um, I didn't realize that we had Scott Adkins in our midst.

14:05Oti: Woo woo. Scott Adkins.

14:07KT: You know, I got a lot of time for Scott. I must say. I didn't realize until we watched interviews that he was in a fat suit. I thought we just had some chunky boy. Action. thought we had some chunky boy. That's why it's not in the fu list at the start of the episode. I just wanna address it in the sense that we acknowledge it the same way this Colin Farrell, um, with a fat suit and Batman as well. Um, but what I will say is the success or the failure isn't hinged on Scott Adkins wearing a fat suit.

14:41KT: So I still maintain everything I said about Brendan Fraser or whatever Oti kept on, what I said about Brendan Fraser taking the role of The Whale in our

14:53Oti: I hear you. Um, it surprised me cause I didn't know it was Scott Adkins as well.

14:57KT: quite, was it also like, how did this chunky boy fight for so long? Yeah,

15:01Oti: he was taking John Wick to church. I was like, what's happening?

15:04KT: Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Non Halle Puppy, non Halle Puppy, non Halle Puppy. I thought we were going to get Halle Berry.

15:13Oti: Uh, yeah. Especially when the trailer showed a dog. I was like, yeah, Halle.

15:18KT: don't do that. You know what you're doing, don't do that. But apparently, um, Shamier Anderson met Chad Stahelski cuz he was working with, um, Halle Berry and

15:30Oti: on Bruised. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need to teach me this.

15:33KT: Alright. Right, bro. if you'd, if

15:36Oti: put my one weird Flex

15:39KT: you would like to sign up to the For Your Reference curriculum of black Cinema only lectured by Oti, um, please send us your social security number and your credit card. Um, but let's go back, let's go back to the chunky boy action. Did the fat suit bother you so we can get out of the way and focus on other

15:57Oti: Not really. It just felt, it felt weird. And this is, I think this is where I started seeing a tear in, in the world.

16:04KT: Oh,

16:05Oti: This is, this is the point where I was like, okay, so Wick is being taken to the cleaner. And to the point where I was like, this guy should not even be walking right now.

16:18KT: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually, I actually wrote a note down. It took a chunky boy to take on Wick. Cause I was like, cause at that point it was like an elongated fight sequence. And I'm like, I don't think he's ever gone this long fighting someone.

16:35Oti: and to, he, he, he was bleeding. He he was slashed in the neck. He was shot on the bar. Yeah. So he's not even a hundred percent and he just, oh, I did not see that coming. Yes. He really st This is the, this is a movie where John Wick struggled. he struggled with almost

16:54KT: It was his Logan. It was his, um, Johnny Cash. I hurt myself.

16:59Oti: and this is the sort of tear I started seeing in the world where we get to see, John Wick getting beaten up and down, landing on some, you know, being thrown from floor to floor. Guy just gets up. The minute it happens to our, to our chunky daddy,

17:19KT: hey,

17:20Oti: he doesn't get up. man's dead

17:27KT: Man's not Fat

17:30Oti: I was like, how? Explain it to me.

17:32KT: Yeah.

17:33Oti: and then I was like, okay, maybe I'm just overthinking things. But it gets worse the more it progresses.

17:37KT: Even this discussion is fucking ridiculous. It's not even an anime, but I do have a theme called anime canon. Well wait, um, we're kind of already talking about expanding the world, but I do wanna leave that. I wanna talk about the cinematography first. Right. I feel like Jonathan Wickenston, and I guess you can extend that to Chad Stahelski as well as Keanu Reeves specifically, and individually, I think they're just, you know, they're, they're just that ex that like opened me up to the world because I never knew I could like action. I never knew I cared about aesthetics until this slick, sexy franchise came.

18:25KT: Wow, wow, wow. Even if you talk about the score and the soundtrack, it's all weaved cohesively. I would say. Um, chapter four is the most poppy, pop, pop culture, um, sort of soundtrack specifically. Um, but it all weaves together so well.

18:44Oti: It does, and it's the most action oriented one of the mo of the four.

18:48KT: Yeah, but I, I think just going back to the visuals in chapter four, it was so like, this is what you see and this is what, you know, that every department that was involved in making this film had a job to do and was given the reign to do it.

19:08Oti: Man, had a job, did a job.

19:10KT: Jason Statham. When he When is Jason Statham gonna get into a fat suit and enter the ring?

19:17Oti: Oh, it's coming

19:18KT: Bra. That will be like a 30 episode Goku-Frieza, um, sort of scenario.

19:24Oti: Oh, we'll wait to see it.

19:27KT: We are learned film critics, but we're also weebs, friends and lovers. Um, I absolutely loved, like there are some gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous visuals, um, that we talked about. You know, we already said, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, but like my mind was fucking blown,

19:46Oti: Mm-hmm.

19:47KT: Like all of, like even when you were inside of the Continental and, oh, do you wanna rank the Continentals? I don't know if we have time, but all of the Continentals felt so. Specific to the location they were in, right. Even the one in Tokyo. And then they had, you know, this gallery sort of space that a lot of the fighting went in as well. Um, and then you had the shadow noodle slurping from Caine's character, which I was very much into. Um, but it's just, and the cherry blossoms, like, and then we also went to France. We went to Germany.

20:24KT: We went all around. We went all around the town. There was definitely a chunky boy budget, or as Oti would say, a chunky daddy budget, um, that was going on. Like there was so much, aside from like, you know, the, I guess the how expensive it was. There was such a richness, you know, even when he was walking into the church before he got shotgun by the priest, like, like, everything just looks so fucking ace man.

20:51Oti: It did. It did. And it's so rare where you get an action mo an an action movie like this where you appreciate the visuals so much.

21:01KT: Yes.

21:01Oti: As you do with John

21:03KT: Yes.

21:03Oti: Even when you're lo looking for it, it just hits you in the face.

21:07KT: Oh yeah.

21:09Oti: Oh yeah. Cause we've seen many action movies where it's all about a Pancho and that's it. But the surrounding pays very little. To what's happening on the screen. Absolutely. Where John Wick does everything.

21:22KT: Yes.

21:24Oti: You know, they, they create an ambience of, for this action to, to manifest. For this violence to feel even more gruesome. Yeah. Whilst being overlaid in beauty and you feel confused and just. Aroused.

21:43KT: I was going to say, you're literally explaining what a boner is, but

21:47Oti: I saw, I was like, fuck it. Lemme just say it.

21:50KT: it. Oh, well how am I supposed to focus after that? Oti.

21:56Oti: Um,

21:57KT: from boners to expanding. If you're nasty, let's talk about expanding the world. I really wanna get into the nuts and bolts of it all. This is why it's not a top film, like in, in the rankings for me is because it suffered what number two did, but also it was an elongation of Parabellum. Right. You know, even before rewatching, cuz obviously, you know, it's been a couple of years, it's been a couple of waves of a pandemic, so a lot has happened. Um, friends and lovers since we rewatched the films in 2019, but I'm so glad we rewatched it cuz in my head, two and three were interchangeable and essentially they were the same.

22:43KT: But until we watched it again, leading up to watching chapter four, Parabellum really distilled. Film gold.

22:54Oti: Mm-hmm Mm.

22:56KT: And what I mean by that is we've got the heightened, heightened, heightened stakes of what happens when it, when you go full fucking Rambo and you get excommunicado, and it's at its highest sort of peak. In regards to tension, in regards to action, in regards to emotional resonance. And I felt like it stayed at that level from L, from like chapter four. At some point we're gonna need him to stop being on the outside No, but you know what I'm saying. Right. He killed someone from the high table. So yeah, you are kind of like. You said you were out, you are. And you're gonna stay in, but you got a great ass, but you're still in.

23:47Oti: No, I hear you. Um, I think to me everything made sense. It transpired quite well,

23:54KT: but it's the same story. though. Nothing has changed. He's still ex-communicated,

24:01Oti: But he is just been, he's just been betrayed by Winston, you know?

24:06KT: Not really

24:07Oti: but yes, really, he

24:08KT: out that his body wasn't there. Therefore, he's not really dead.

24:13Oti: Doesn't matter. But Winston didn't know that.

24:15KT: But that's the thing. It's, it's just proximity shrapnel at that point.

24:20Oti: Everything is proximity shrapnel. If you stretch it long enough, that's why you have seven degrees of Kevin.

24:26KT: Yikes.

24:29Oti: What

24:30KT: Bacon do to you?

24:34Oti: I'm just getting facts.

24:35KT: You want a bit of daddy bacon on the weekends? Slap it on the side with some maples. Yeah, brother.

24:42Oti: No, but I, I get it. I do understand it, but I think, to me, it felt distinct enough to stand on its own.

24:48KT: No, because the action was so fucking ace. Ignore the action.

24:52Oti: No, he's, he's actually now going against the high table. He's trying to take, bring them down.

24:59KT: right. I would say he was already doing that in Parabellum. The only difference is you see the lasting consequences of Winston, Charon, you know, uh, like everyone that helped him along the way. They like the consequences stuck with them. Like it doesn't just go away by the next movie. So we're still seeing the same story. So I would say I absolutely love chapter four for all of the. But I'm not even an action gal. So you know, my pusa val was feeling very dehydrated in some parts even with shadow noodle slurping Caine. Yeah. You can also, um, attend the FYR curriculum or fan fiction only lectured by KT. I just feel like, because you know, I've got a lot of time for this franchise and I will always watch, cause I'm seeing a lot of people saying like, shout outs to Rob. The best o from smoke and mirrors. Um, but you know, they were talking about like, oh yeah, we are done. We don't wanna see like another film.

26:11KT: I'm like, I'm in. I will watch as many films as long it's the same team. As long as it's the same core. I'm still in, I'm still gonna watch it. But I do know that the story is suffering and I hope that, you know, cause we also talk about like the expanding, so we have like Ballerina, which unfortunately Lance Reddick was, you know, supposed to be in as well. We see the expanding of the world, maybe even potentially a John Wick five is in the cards. Oti,

26:39Oti: pretty sure it is.

26:40KT: Um, you know, spinoffs, tangents, universes, that sort of thing.

26:45Oti: I think we're getting a Continental TV show as well.

26:47KT: Yeah. So, so my point is I have a lot of time and I, I will watch it. Um, and I don't know, Parabellum, like I said, it's tied with the first one for. So if I felt any sort of like deviance from what I know it to be, you know, transcending what you think an action genre film would be, then yeah, that's why it would be less on mine. But I still enjoyed it, but I, I would say, you know, and it's not just like specific to Jonathan Wickenston, we even talked about Attack on Titan, and that's also why we don't have a Attack on Titan Review, but we will eventually do an Attack on Titan episode.

27:24KT: But you see what I'm saying? Like, The story needs to slow down in order for it to expand. But when that happens, it gets to a point where we are like, okay, now what? Right. So it was expanding, but it was still the same story. In my personal

27:42Oti: no. I think it's different. I think what you're, what you wanted to see is chapter four, starting at, you know, five years later, no one wants to see that shit. continuity makes everything, and I think that's what Chad. Clung on so well, and it works with John Wick. Okay, because we, chapter four, we just dive in where we left off. we know what's happening. We don't need any more exposition. Just give us what we need,

28:10KT: I think, oh, okay. So Keanu Reeves argues with the timeline, but the crew talks about, you know, they're all close to each other, but chapter four is like a couple of months So that's still the same story.

28:26Oti: But we, we we're not as, we we're not removing ourselves or John Wick isn't removed and set in a cabin somewhere. He'd run away Oh, Dexter. You know, with some

28:37KT: Oh, Dexter

28:38Oti: Gray beard over here. No, no, no, no, no, no. That would've just been suicide for the franchise. I think I, I preferred how they did it because it worked. And we had action from the first minute to the last

28:54KT: There was, there was definitely a lot of action. Um, let's move on. I do have action, but before we talk about the action in the film, I wanna talk about anime canon. I would say that this Jonathan Wickenston, chapter four is Moree than Creed.

29:11Oti: Ooh,

29:12KT: Friends and lovers, go and check out one of our recent Ref Maxes where we covered our, um, thoughts and feelings about Creed III. Um, but in regards to Jonathan Wickenston, chapter four, the reason why I say this is so fucking anime is because first off, we have god-tier casting like throughout this whole film, right?

29:40Oti: Mm.

29:41KT: What that means, especially in the hands of Stahelski, is we are going to have some primo god of war boner level action sequences, right? Yeah. When, and we're not just gonna get one, we're gonna get multiple action sequences with these legends across cinema, across martial arts, kung fu, stunt choreography, everything under the sun, right.

30:05Oti: Mm-hmm.

30:06KT: But what that also means is we are hindering the story because we know at the end of the day, no one's really going to fucking lose or kill each other maliciously, I guess, unless we're talking about Shimazu. So the stakes are very low in that. So we can enjoy the combat, the

30:33Oti: the other side of the cliff. Come closer, please.

30:36KT: please, and keep rolling down the stairs for five minutes because people in the audience will be laughing. Right. You know what I mean? So like the stakes were very low to me. I think if you accept that nothing is really going to happen in way of consequences to characters and world building, then this is a great ride.

30:59Oti: Oh, no, no. Like,

31:01KT: were they going to kill Donnie Yen though?

31:03Oti: I went into this knowing that he's not gonna die.

31:05KT: Exactly.

31:06Oti: It's fucking Donnie Yen

31:08KT: But that's what I'm saying.

31:11Oti: But I didn't have a fault with that because who in the right mind? saying, who in the right mind would add someone like Donnie Yen who add such a dynamic range to the movie and they gonna kill him off. what for,

31:27KT: We're both saying the same thing. You are just saying it as in

31:31Oti: appreciate it. You're not appreciating it. You are like, eh, no stakes. I'm like bra fuck stakes. If you wanna watch a movie where characters that left front and center, go watch something else.

31:43KT: Okay. Viti and Kobe.

31:45Oti: that would've been applicable to Green Book. They should have added characters who fucking died everywhere. Oh.

31:50KT: Oh, no. Oh, Oti

31:53Oti: I think this is the first time I've

31:54KT: I've met. Are you working

31:55Oti: year.

31:55KT: are, are you working with Jerome Tarantino to do The Movie Critic

32:00Oti: We

32:01KT: go in like you just raise havoc in the Green Book world? Is that what's happening? Yeah. I've never watched Babylon. I'm just imagining it, Oti going and fighting people in the set of,

32:11Oti: Yeah, I'd watch that

32:13KT: I would watch that too. Um, we're both saying the same thing, bruh. That's

32:20Oti: We're saying the same thing, but you are taking a negative spin on it. And now I'm saying I

32:24KT: don't think it's negative. I think there should always be stakes, especially if we're talking about an action film

32:29Oti: those stakes Spoiler. Again, if you watch this movie, wick.

32:36KT: does he though?

32:38Oti: That's the biggest stake you can get.

32:41KT: we're watching Power right now and people think Ghost is still alive.

32:45Oti: Yeah, I do. I

32:47KT: Omari Hardwick is busy doing other things. He's not coming back to Power. Um, friends and lovers. If you, um, if you have theories or you refuse to believe that characters die, even if they die on screen, hit us up in the dms. Um, I don't know, like I just, do you have any general comments about expanding all the world? Do you think the films suffered? Well, you said it was tied first, so probably not, but do you feel like the film suffered because of expanding the world?

33:17Oti: I don't think it suffered. I think it was interesting learning it more about, uh, the table.

33:23KT: Okay. Um, sorry, I need to go back. I guess just like the Ostrich Ninja Filler episode, I need to go back, um, to expanding the world because we do have new characters and maybe this is the time to talk about them. I don't care for Marquis, and I also didn't know that Bill was doing a French accent until other characters were like, this Frenchman, this Frenchman. I'm like, who the fuck are they talking? But again, I, I can, I can only speak English. Um, you know, I can try and pretend if you don't speak Tongan, I speak Tongan as well.

33:59KT: Um, so I'm not going to knock, you know, his accent. I'm not gonna spend a lot of time doing that. But the fundamental qualm that I have with Marquis character is he was the big bad. So there was like, there was no, not that we needed to like resonate with him, but he just bulldozed through every action. So we knew we weren't going to like him. We knew all of the big bad sort of actions would come out of him, and he just bulldozed every sort of situation he was in. And it was so heavy handed.

34:35Oti: Yeah, I hear you. I don't know. I feel like I, I appreciated Marquis in this because here's something different. We've not got any in John. Yeah,

34:45KT: A character lacking nuance

34:50Oti: No, he, he add, he added some, some, some much needed evil trialing villain, which we never had a face to the, you know, even if he wasn't of the table,

35:02KT: he was giving me Pontius Pilate and Passion of the.

35:05Oti: Well, if you mean that he tried to talk sense into people

35:11KT: and you know what, but you know what also really frustrated me as well. Do your own dirty work the way that he delegated Caine to do like the final pistol showdown? Like at first I would, I would never believe, even with a compelling montage, I would never believe that Marquis would ever be able to take down John Wick, but I also wouldn't believe a chunky boy would be able to take down John Wick. So maybe I'm wrong in every sense. I wouldn't believe he would be able to beat him up. But also there's a respectability, and maybe this is me prescribing to toxic masculinity, but there's a respectability. If he had taken the final showdown himself,

35:52Oti: what would he though? He doesn't need to, he, he had a proxy, so he, he doesn't need to stand there and play cowboy.

36:04KT: Well just be 10 toes down about it. Be accountable for your own

36:08Oti: bro. People at the top are barely accountable for.

36:12KT: Really? You are bringing real world politics into our fantasy, Philip

36:19Oti: But it's true. They don't get their hands dirty. They get their minions to do it.

36:23KT: Okay, RI If

36:28Oti: Just get outta the way.

36:30KT: If you get the reference, friends and lovers, you get the reference.

36:34Oti: I also just think I was imagining. It Pennywise. Yeah. I was like, oh man,

36:41KT: those eyes

36:42Oti: What is he gonna come outta the sea

36:47KT: Um, if we're talking about other characters as well, I obviously have thoughts. You obviously know my thoughts. What were your thoughts on the tracker

36:57Oti: He was just us. He was the simplest of the audience in the movie.

37:01KT: hundred.

37:03Oti: Everything. We felt like, oh, this is the re reaction that it dissolved. He'd do it. And I loved it. Oh, you didn't like the tracker?

37:15KT: Nah, man.

37:16Oti: Oh, wow.

37:18KT: Nah. You are not a part of this bro. Like the tracker. They're all there with their little Chianti. You know, um, sighing consequences into their wine, which is what I do on a daily. People off the side with his bee, and it's like, NAS, you're not a part of this.

37:38Oti: No, but I think he,

37:39KT: character didn't add to the film. And we love Shamier Anderson. I have a lot of time for this fella. However, his character, aside from the moments where he kind of reminded me of Willem Dafoe's character. Going back to earlier in the franchise, like he was there to make sure John Wick didn't die in very dire circumstances. But aside from that, like you're right, he becomes the vessel, the embodiment of audience reactions,

38:09Oti: And I loved it. I love him. And we also got some dog action. Some dog fu.

38:14KT: I'm not

38:15Oti: gonna lie, thanks to him.

38:16KT: I'm not gonna lie. I teared up when John Wick saved the dog. Like there, there are some things that will always be universally true to me, friends and lovers, but you know, I'm not gonna hate on the tracker. If we're about characters, like new characters that I really enjoyed. Shimazu was great. Akira I think is going to play a larger role, um, in the future. Films

38:39Oti: probably villain

38:40KT: You reckon?

38:42Oti: a hundred

38:42KT: Okay. I know, I know. This is just me hating on like the new peeps. But Akira was a bit annoying because she kept, she kept like blaming everything on John Wick and she's like, oh, it's your fault. What? That Shimazu was such a loyal friend. You can't blame. John

39:00Oti: at you just the same way you are blaming our tracker for everyth.

39:04KT: I'm not blaming him for everything I just said. He didn't need to be there.

39:08Oti: Donnie didn't get chance to slurp his noodle as long as he, he wanted to see him eat the noodles.

39:13KT: Oh my,

39:14Oti: my, Because of the tracker.

39:15KT: Where do I sign up to that mukbang OnlyFans, I don't know. I'm, you know, we saw the tracker sketching John Wick in his book. I'll be sketching Donnie Yen, in a, um, turtle neck.

39:29Oti: No, it was understandable to me. I think she just hated the fact that the dad had this close bond to John Wick.

39:36KT: But that's what I'm saying. It's, it's, it's just because we're being told the story from a particular point of view. But I'm like, you're being a brat. Get lost

39:42Oti: No, she is not.

39:43KT: No, she's not. But it's like we're here with John Wick and his friends. Everyone has sacrificed. That's how nice and beautiful John Wick is.

39:51Oti: But it led to the death of the father. What the fuck, darling

39:56KT: Okay, fine.

39:58Oti: She wasn't wrong. John Wick brought disaster to the Continental.

40:03KT: He's not rogue.

40:06Oti: Are you sure?

40:07KT: Perhaps

40:10Oti: Nah. I, I, I, I, I love that Akira's character. I'm pretty sure she's gonna come back.

40:14KT: I loved her as a character. There were just moments where I'm like, let's be mature about this because I'm sure Akira has friends that she would lay her life down. especially being in the line of work that she's in. That's what I'm saying. But I would be very excited to see, you know, future iterations with in it. That's what I'm Uh, action. Action. Action. Is there anything else you wanna say about the action scenes? Favorite ones?

40:42Oti: Oh,

40:43KT: doorbell. I love the doorbell.

40:46Oti: Yeah, that was cool.

40:47KT: Not yet. That was

40:49Oti: I think a lot of the Donnie action scenes were were, was spectacular. Cause I sort of used to John Wick by now. Yeah. We're sort of used to John Wick. It was nice and different.

41:00KT: It was a John Wick and Caine movie. and also Chunky Daddy. But aside from that, like that's who the film was focusing on and all of my favorite action sequences were Donnie. And, um, and what I would say as well, which is it, it's like a baby theme, but it's an It's like respect in the game. Like I haven't watched a lot of kung fu films. Um, so we definitely have a lot of fun watching adventures together. And I'm not just talking about Wu-Tang: An American s. that's expanding of the kung fu world. Oti. um, you know, and I'm not privy to a lot of the action sort of genre, but you can tell there's a lot of love and there's a lot of respect that Stahelski brings to the John Wick franchise.

41:51KT: And exactly like you said, like you don't take down a legend like Donnie Yen. Right. Um, but there was so much respectability, um, in this film and full love of the genre as well.

42:04Oti: a hundred percent.

42:08KT: Also talking about the action, I, I did write something down. Um, no one could hurt John Wick, like John Wick can hurt himself.

42:18Oti: And, and that's why I told you my disconnect started seeping in, like it Is is Bro Goku here? You know

42:27KT: no. I I was getting Michael Myers.

42:30Oti: Yeah. Man. He, he, he, he jumped off the second story of a building, landed on a van, dented the van, fell down on the ground, got up as if it's nothing. Well, he limped for two seconds. got hit by a car multiple times. Guaranteed. He could explain it as, oh, he's strange. So he probably dropped with the right angle and

42:52KT: because no suit is that strong.

42:54Oti: Like there's so many, there's so many moments that John Wick should be paralyzed at the least. Yeah,

43:02KT: Yeah, absolutely. Because

43:04Oti: everyone else is dying from normal falls. Yeah, Yeah. Even though a chunky daddy fell from war. Not even fast flow.

43:13KT: but he wasn't dead after that. Like John Wick had to continue punching him in the head.

43:17Oti: He fell on the stairs and died, and then John Wick just rolled up and took his.

43:22KT: Oh, okay. So that was just for fun,

43:24Oti: bra. I'm just telling you.

43:28KT: so, so Even though, so even though you see tears, you are still all good.

43:34Oti: Yeah, just don't make him invincible like that.

43:38KT: He's turning into Michael Myers, like, I don't know if he's human

43:41Oti: or maybe there's still world building. Maybe he went to, you know, he signed his soul to the devil and has some Jason Powers or some shit.

43:50KT: maybe we're like melding. We're going into like horror now. Um, I wanna end in, I guess focusing more on what I love about this franchise and it is an emotional Um, I wanna talk about the moment, um, where we have Winston's character, um, we have the Bowery King, but you know, we're just going to call him Morph. Or I call him Furious from Boyz n the Hood. Um, and then we also have John Wick, and they're talking about what they want on their

44:26Oti: Yeah. Loving husband. Hey.

44:29KT: Yeah. But actually before we talk about that, you know, obviously life is timed in its own sort of, um, timing, but like, I feel like they did Charon dirty, like he got killed off so cold. So abruptly, and I know that becomes the catalyst of a lot of the emotion in this film, but like, I felt like that was so cold and so abrupt in the film.

44:55Oti: As soon as he refused to leave Winston side, I was like, yeah, shit's gonna happen to Cause they made it so. Oh, you, you shouldn't be here. This is my decision. It's not gonna end Cause this isn't gonna die, so

45:07KT: yeah, I guess I, I wasn't really thinking about that, but, um, So we have, we have the friend and love of tombstones, I guess. So you have, you know, John Wick's character talking about being a loving husband. I would, mm, if I can be controversial, I would say him being a loving husband isn't even extended I would say this is more him being driven by friendship, if

45:34Oti: Well, he just wants to be remembered as a husband because that's all he holds dear in this.

45:38KT: But he's not continuing to fight because of that, he's continuing to fight for his friends, his friend and lover fu

45:45Oti: whatever you say, man, all that falls the way he already does because of the end of the day. All he wants or deems important in his life is him being a husband.

45:57KT: okay. Um, and then I'm pretty sure the Bowery King was something like, long Live the fucking King, or something

46:04Oti: like that. Mm-hmm.

46:06KT: I hope I can have an NFT as my tombstone.

46:10Oti: I'll put a QR code on it.

46:16KT: we're still paying off the plot. Please donate to our GoFundMe. We made some bad crypto decisions. Please donate.

46:29Oti: Wow.

46:32KT: This was a fun one. Hopefully you enjoyed us as well, friends and lovers. Uh, joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

46:43Oti: Oh, I'm gonna reference Ip Man. If you wanna see Donnie Yen in his full glory, that's another great franchise.

46:50KT: Nice. I'm going to reference Spartacus.

46:55Oti: Oh,

46:56KT: if you would like to enter the friend and lover fu on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod

47:02Oti: write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

47:05KT: We're also on Chunky Daddy's podcast if you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.