Interview with “Mistress Dispeller” Director, Elizabeth Lo

Full transcript of Interview with “Mistress Dispeller” Director, Elizabeth Lo.

0:05KT: With strikingly intimate access, Mistress Dispeller follows this unfolding family drama from all corners of a love triangle. Mistress Dispeller directed by Elizabeth Lo will be screening at Sydney Film Festival on the 7th of June, 8th of June, as well as the 13th of June. And you gotta snap up the tickets. They're selling out.

0:28KT: Friends and lovers, Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time and welcome to the For Your Reference podcast call.

0:33Elizabeth: Us. Thank you so much for having me.

0:33KT: I just want, I'm so excited to talk about the film, but I just wanna start off by saying congratulations on this film. I have heard the labor of love and obviously I would love to hear more about it, but the 81st Venice International Film Festival, she won a couple of awards as well.

0:56KT: Um, so I just want to start off by saying congratulations.

1:00Elizabeth: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's been really amazing to how, see how people have been responding to the film.

1:07KT: I, I think it's also like relatable. As well. And I think even just to start off this chat, I, I feel like in this, uh, burn and churn, 15 second swipe away, you know, sort of consumption that we have sometimes, and it's not even through fault of our own, just as, um, like an audience. We don't realize how much work. Goes into the making of a documentary, and you know, through interviews you've talked about how it's taken years. You've filmed other couples as well to even get to, you know, the, the subjects. Um, it always feels weird to say subjects in regards to documentary, but I think

1:47Elizabeth: participants is the new word.

1:49KT: Yes, it's the new term, I think. Yeah. Let, let, let, let's. Um, go by participants, but, you know, in, in order to make this, uh, film, we're talking about real lives and obviously there's a push and pull and, um, you know, there's a lot of work that goes into it. And I guess, um, I, I know you've talked about it a few times, so feel free to spin it in whatever way you like, but I guess, um, how was it, I guess, getting to the end of this process and, you know, there, there's a lot that I want to.

2:17KT: Speak about in the making of it, but I guess how was it getting to where we are now and seeing people enjoy it and, and cringe and, and feel a lot of heartbreak even from the first scene of Mistress Dispeller? Yeah.

2:31Elizabeth: I mean, it, it's, it, it's funny, I myself never get tired of watching it sometimes. Mm-hmm. Um, which is surprising because I've seen it so many times. But every time I'm in a theater, I like get hooked myself and watching, you know, the wife's face and that first scene when she's so emotive. And that was literally the first day we spent with her. Like, that was our first. Shoot day with her. Yeah. And, and, and she's like reflecting about her own love life and, and, and being so emotive and, and it's been a real pleasure to sort of see people laugh and find humor in all of it.

3:05Elizabeth: And I think people are not laughing at the people, the participants in the film. I think when I laugh and I chuckle and I look at the footage, even from the early on before we started editing, I feel like I see myself in bits of each of. Each of the characters. Mm-hmm. Like I, we, I feel like we've all been in situations where you're not getting what you want in love, or you're having to let go when you don't want to. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and how do you, how does, how do you express yourself in those moments? It feels so relatable. I.

3:34KT: Yeah, and I, I, I think it's one of those things that I would like to take some time to just say thank you for. You can feel the love around it, you know, like sometimes when you are watching, even if it's like a documentary, there like a gotcha moment. And you know, in interviews you've talked about where it feels like the conversation is being crafted by the filmmaker. That's an aspect, but also it feels like there's a lot of love there. Maybe you might have questions of, oh, I wonder this, this, but yet remember at the end of the day that these are real people and there was a lot of love that you poured into the making of this.

4:10KT: So I just wanted to lay my love for that. I. I'm

4:13Elizabeth: so glad that you could sense that because Yeah, it's, it's, it's true, like something that annoys me sometimes about the way sometimes documentaries are edited is that, you know, the reaction shots and you can tell that they completely Franken, you know, Frankenstein Yeah. Edited the conversation to suit their own agenda. And so this film was really designed and edited, um, with our editor, Charlotte Munch Bengtsen. And shot in this way so that you can really just have a long take over a tabletop and like witness the way people affect each other, the nuance and effects mini mint gestures and the things they say that take turns within the relationship or within the conversation so that you're seeing it authentically and there's not so much manipulation by the filmmaker.

4:58Elizabeth: And we also. Took great pains to be very protective of our characters. Mm-hmm. And their dignity within the film, not including things that might hurt them or hurt even your impression of them, because the whole conceit of the film was. For, for audiences to be able to understand every corner of a love triangle and to really try to grasp that. Like why, why do people do what they do? And what is it like to be in situations like this where you're to maybe torn between duty and desire or having to think about your own individual, um, wants versus what's better for the collective good.

5:36KT: And that speaks a lot on building trust, right? And, um, the, the, there's, there's, there's. There's a few scenes, but there's a particular scene, like the tabletop scene that you're talking about where I, I feel like it was, it was very helpful at the start to have the title credits to explain what's about to happen, but then even watching it and realizing that this is real, it's like. Wow, this is actually falling into place in a way that's, I guess, entertaining and enjoying for a viewer. But that tabletop scene, it's like, girl, I get it, but we have an objective. We need to get to where we're going. And you know, there, there are even moments like near the end of the film, I'm not gonna spoil anything, but there is a moment where the film crew. Is addressed just to make sure that everyone is feeling very comfortable because again, we are speaking about real people and you know, I, I guess a lot of rom-coms and a lot of fun thrillers.

6:36KT: Um, I think of Glenn Close, like, you know, there, there are some moments where it makes really theatrical sort of turns, but we get to a moment in this documentary where it's about building trust and, you know, what was it like being in, I guess, the tabletop scene, um, of being present in that moment? And I guess. Because you're not necessarily wanting to steer it because we talked about, you know, letting it play out. But I guess what is it like as a filmmaker seeing it happen and being like, oh, okay, whatever, wherever we thought this was going, or maybe this is where we thought it was going, and being able to capture that, I guess, in real time.

7:11Elizabeth: Yeah. So we never knew how scenes would unfold. Mm-hmm. And the mistress dispeller herself also. Didn't know how scenes would unfold and you hear her preparing the wife like, tomorrow we're gonna have this consultation with the husband. Well, we don't know whether we're gonna be able to get to the heart of the issue or not. Mm-hmm. And so actually, because those scenes were so unpredictable, um, we, and because the film is designed with the sense of stillness in which you're not moving the camera, that actually on a practical level, allowed us to hit record once we figured out where these conversations were taking place. And then.

7:45Elizabeth: The whole crew would leave the room. So, and we would just monitor it from afar from the next room. And, you know, as we, that's even more of

7:52KT: a closed, like set that's like Totally,

7:55Elizabeth: totally, totally. Just because we wanted them to feel as uninhibited as possible and not self-conscious about things that could potentially be embarrassing or, you know, be shrouded by, by feelings of shame. Um. And that was very much like designed as part of the production process. Um, which is how I think it explains for a lot of people how we get the kinds of scenes that we do. It's 'cause no crew are in the room. Um, so, but then like when I'm looking at the footage in the edit room, I too, uh, feel this, my jaw drop.

8:25Elizabeth: And I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. Like what are his motivations and what does he mean when he says this? Like everybody, like my editor and my producers and I, we all have like different interpretations for like where. You know, at what point does he feel what way? Yeah. And I, I, I really wanted audiences to, you know, engage in the same feelings that we did as a crew. Mm-hmm. This feeling of awe at the kind of material that we were getting. And also like all the, there's a lot, so much room for interpretation. I.

8:56KT: And e even the trailer, it's like the wife, the husband, the mistress who is happy and who's in the most pain. I'm like, you better not say the husband. He's not in the most, but that was the hook, right? Like that's the premise. That's the hook. But obviously we come for so much more. Um, I guess from a, a filmmaking documentary, um, making point of view, how was it finding that going beyond the hook, beyond that sort of headline or synopsis, people would read.

9:25Elizabeth: I mean, there's a totally different version of the film where it could just be about like this shallow, sensational spectacle of like, what a strange love industry that exists in China. But we really didn't want audiences to come away with this thinking, oh, China is so weird. Um, what we really wanted was to, for them to invest in the characters and to understand. The wife's perspective and then we shift towards the husbands and hopefully you gain some insight into what he's going through. And then even more of a shock, um, for audiences, I think will be when we get to spend time with the mistress too, that, you know, two, you know, for the first third of the film is a complete phantom that is, you know, portrayed as a threat to this marriage. Mm-hmm. Um, and you get to see her perspective. But to me, I was really.

10:13Elizabeth: Compelled as a storyteller by the idea of being able to create like a Rashomon approach to a love story where a love is crumbling and you're shifting, you know, perspectives around three people all surrounding the same love story and, and seeing it from different, different angles. I thought that would be really. Interesting. And on a very classical level, like I see each of them as hero very heroic in the journey that they're going through. Mm-hmm. Like the wife has to set aside her pride to be, to save her family. The husband has to choose between desire and what he wants temporarily. Oh,

10:52KT: Elizabeth. I don't wanna spoil, I don't wanna spoil too many lines, but when the husband was describing the different types of love, um, my partner Oti we like, we do the podcast together and we were watching the screener together. I was like, oh man. Just like, let's just break up immediately if you say this about me. Hold on. So, I dunno if we wanna spoil. Do want me to. Mention

11:19Elizabeth: the lines. No, it's up to you and your audience. Like how you think your audiences would prefer it most. But it's so funny because people do get really, I think some people get really upset by how the husband doesn't seem to have to be held accountable. And it's ac, it's the women who are doing so much emotional labor.

11:39KT: Yeah. To kids. Well, I think it's more

11:41Elizabeth: each other and.

11:43KT: I think without spoiling what what was said in the film, it was more that, uh. You know, having a wife is very grounded, but the romanticism and the whimsy and all of the fluff that you can get out of love, he didn't identify that with the wife. And that's why I was saying, Oti, I was like, we are done. Like if you, if if, 'cause I'm a very pragmatic person, so that's actually a compliment. If you were to say that loving me is very stable and pragmatic, I love that. But to assign all of that. Wonder and whimsy. Yeah. Outside of the marriage is very interesting.

12:20KT: And I was like, who? I was like,

12:22Elizabeth: but it's also so stereotypical, right? Mm-hmm. Like when people get, have like a midlife crisis, um Yes. Or as Esther Perel says, and you have an affair. It's not for really for the other person, it's you're searching for another, you.

12:37KT: Yes. Like you're

12:38Elizabeth: no longer happy with the version of you that that has become.

12:42KT: Yeah, dominant. Um, and there's a sentiment in the film, um, talking about, you know, people love and they feel love at different stages. You know, old people love in old ways. And I, I was like, Ooh, there's so many layers to even that statement because there's so many parts of us and there's so many parts we leave in the past for better or worse, and we shift and we become. You know, different people. And I guess that comes to, I guess the broader sort of commentary. 'cause it was very interesting, the dating camp. I don't know if you have plans of a documentary of the dating camp, but there's so many interesting, I guess, sort of aspects and you get glimpses, whether it's the sprawling sort of aerial shots or you know, commentary here and there.

13:29KT: But there is a broader, you talk about um, you know, growing up in Hong Kong and like having different sort of love stories compared to I guess, mainstream sort of love stories. I guess, how was it balancing that? 'cause it is very much wherewith this triangle, but then there's also a big world or a big country or you know, just there's so much going on around as well in context of

13:51Elizabeth: Yeah. Um, yeah, that, that's. That's entirely why like we break away from that core love story to go towards these vignettes that love of like wilderness scenes, you know, that are shot throughout Chinese national parks and then also like, you know, parental marriage markets and telephone matchmakers and, and dating camps in the mountains. Because I really want to suggest that I think all of us across the world, not just in China, we all face so much pressures. So many expectations that are formed by the society and environment in which we grow up in. Mm-hmm. And it corrupts love. It defines love in many ways. And I think all of us are just trying to find love and keep it probably and love ourselves.

14:37Elizabeth: It's tough. Yeah. And love ourselves too. And it, and it's, and it's hard. It's hard. Um, but, but yeah, it was, it was really interesting to, to be able to. Have people, so on such a profound and generous level, share their lives and su the struggles that they have domestically in a film like this. Um, and to be so unselfconscious about it.

15:04KT: Yeah. And it's, it's a beautiful thing. And it was so nice to see, um, I think it was at the side of the film saying that they were aware of the process and they had permission, like they could have decided at any time whether they wanted this. To air or not. And in Sydney Film Festival there's another, uh, documentary called Make It Look Real about an intimacy coordinator. So I feel like, you know, yeah. And people, people care about where the sausage is made, you know what I mean? So it was so nice to have that prompt of Okay, everything you're about to watch. Is wild in the best and most realistic of ways, but it's good to know that they have, like they've given consent to sharing this as well.

15:46KT: And that again, that speaks to the love that was wrapped into the production. Yeah.

15:50Elizabeth: We always knew. That was like a huge piece of the filmmaking that, um, my producer, Emma Miller and I, we had to figure out, because there's so much deception inherent to the profession of being a mistress dispeller who insinuates herself under a covert identity into a family and then influences people to break up the affair. She also, so. Yeah, I know in this way that we were like, you know, to, we have to approach this ethically and, and nothing is worth, you know, actually jeopardizing, um, someone's life for, for a film. And there has to be consent and there has to be multiple opportunities for consent. Mm-hmm. Um, and that they can retract that at any time.

16:27Elizabeth: And we would have to respect that. And we had back, you know. As a production, we had, we filmed across China for three years. So many diff, you know, divorce lawyers, so many different love industries. We had the material to be able to pivot if we, if we needed to. But, you know, we're so thankful that the three main characters, Teacher Wang's clients, chose to, chose to remain featured.

16:50KT: Well, I'm so grateful that you've made this film and I just wanna thank you so much for the experience and I guess you know what love could be or what love shouldn't be on the horizon. Um,

17:04Elizabeth: but well, actually what I was gonna say, I was gonna say. I forgot my point before, but like, actually one of the most profound things that someone has said to me is that the film, when they watched it, it felt a little bit like therapy. Mm-hmm. Because the film is so non-judgmental of all parties. Yeah. That like you can hopefully find room to reflect about your own love life and your own approaches to love. Mm-hmm. No matter what stage of love you're at. Yes. Um, or lack of love and, and. And that it really gives you space to just think about your own choices Yes.

17:36Elizabeth: And where you are, and that we all struggle and that there's forgiveness for yourself and for others. I. That's possible.

17:43KT: Absolutely. Um, just very quickly, there was a Twitter thread of therapists talking about therapizing couples and so many therapists were like, they sent a very polite email saying, Hey, I'm going to stop sessions. 'cause they knew that it was. Too toxic and it was too broken to fix them. So I guess it's good to have a production where we see it feels like therapy and it's actually gonna work, and they're not just yelling at each other. It's very pragmatic of like, okay, this is done. Now what are we gonna

18:13Elizabeth: do? So practical. It's so practical. Like actually, Teacher Wang. Like jokingly said to us, like, I don't understand. In the west you have these therapists that people see for years and nothing actually changes in their lives. But I am a therapist who actually inter like stages, interventions to C create concrete change in your life, which, you know, that's up for debate whether that's for better or for worse. And how, how deeply she's really solving a problem.

18:41KT: And, and that's the beauty of life. It's, it's multilayered and it's complex just like Mistress Dispeller. Um, I wanna thank you so much for your time and wrap up with our final question. I could talk about the love and different stages of love. For many more years to come. Um, but we finish off our reviews with a recommendation. So what would you pair with Mistress Dispeller as a double feature? It doesn't need to be a documentary, it doesn't need to be a Sydney Film Festival. Just like any film you think that would be really cool to pair together as a watching experience.

19:17Elizabeth: Huh? Lemme, it doesn't have to be like from this year. No. I would, I would, well, one of, I would pair it with Raise the Red Lantern by Zhang Yimou which is a film that actually inspired this one. Oh, that one is about, Gong Li plays a concubine, one of four concubines who live in a household in 19 hundreds, China, in which she has to navigate, you know, competing for the affections of the man of the household in this patriarchy and what that's like for her. And maybe that would be an interesting to see, you know, China as it was portrayed a hundred years ago versus a portrait of modern day relationships in China today.

20:01KT: We've got a lecture. We've got a syllabus right there, Elizabeth. Well, friends and lovers, grab your concubines. Grab your mistresses. Gotta have a great time. Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much.