Interview with “Bad Ancestors” Creator/Writer, Wendy Mocke and Producer, Jessica Magro

Full transcript of Interview with “Bad Ancestors” Creator/Writer, Wendy Mocke and Producer, Jessica Magro.

0:04KT: Wendy Mocke is an award winning Papua New Guinean interdisciplinary storyteller and a NIDA acting graduate working across live performance and film as an actor, writer, and visual artist. Samoan Maltese Australian producer, Jessica Magro founded Purple Carrot Entertainment, an independent production company committed to telling the untold stories of misrepresented Australia. Bad Ancestors is a satire and black comedy that centers on two best friends, millennials who haven't figured out life and adulting.

0:37KT: Wendy and Jess, thank you so much. And I mean it. I mean it. I mean it. I am very excited and welcome to the For Your Reference podcast.

0:46Jessica: We are the most excited.

0:48Wendy: You. Are beyond excited. Thank you so much for letting us come here and Kiki and hopefully just like spill a lot of tea.

0:56KT: It's scorching, it's hot. We need to prepare everybody. But I am so excited to talk about the achievements and especially Bad Ancestors as well. But even both of your careers, we could be here until 2025 and that's what you and all of us deserve personally. But before we even get there, our audience is mostly in The United States. So even explaining Pacific Islanders as a broad sort of people is its own challenge. And then to drill down to, like, black Pacific Islanders. So I kind of want to frame and start off our

1:34KT: Talanoa with you, Wendy. You've been quoted as saying that you wanna make alive what is quiet and asleep in Melanesian stories and unpack the myriad of layers that is the black Pacific Islander identity. If it's okay, would love to hear you speak on that for a little bit.

1:34Wendy: Yeah, of course.

1:53Wendy: Selfishly enough write and create things where I see that aren't there for, you know, someone like myself who is from Papua New Guinea. And being that a lot of what we consume and what we see on on screen, on stages, reading in even in our literature, I think is focused on a particular part of the Pacific Islands and not not really inclusive.

2:17KT: You can say it. It's Samoans and Tongans always getting in the way.

2:17Wendy: Yeah, listen, look, it's very post century.

2:23Wendy: Yeah. And that's that is Okay because, I mean, the colonists are the ones that came came over and, you know, divided us all. And so I think a lot of times we we as a Melanesians get left out of the conversation. And so my focus is to kind of rip apart those, a, those stereotypes that and those Western lens that have been placed on us, but also B, just to kind of like open it up. The Pacific Islands is so massive. Like we are like, you know, we're so diverse. And

2:56Wendy: so I want to be able to celebrate that and be able to tell stories and be able to, like, talk about experiences that aren't necessarily attached to people like us where we're from. And and also just like to be silly and be brave and bold. We can possibly be while being Pacific Islanders and also being black. Yeah. At the same time. And funny that I always get into, like, Twitter beefs.

3:21KT: I love I love like you are worldwide famous.

3:25Wendy: Oh, God. No. I'm just like

3:25KT: In the best way. Like, you know, it's just the listen, I'm going go there. How many minutes in a week? You're like, who hasn't been read that needs to be read today?

3:25Wendy: It's a while. Listen, let me just go there. The way that like, people are hard, like to understand that blackness exists outside of America. Yeah. I've it's it's like, get into these beefs all the time because there are certain groups on Twitter that stay saying that Melanesians aren't black and there's no black islanders

3:58Wendy: and like, it's that whole, you know, bin fire of a of a conversation. Yeah.

4:04KT: Yeah. And it's it's so interesting. And obviously, we won't get into detail, but the singer Tyla, identifying as Coloured, Americans are like, no, you're black. And it's like, actually, there's so much texture. There's so much complexity.

4:17Wendy: Yeah. There's so much nuance to this. And also, like, there the you're you're kind of you colonization took place in took place in so many part of the world, not just in one part. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not you're minimizing the effects of colonization that it has globally on black people.

4:36KT: And I I do hope we have the time to talk about, you know, because I was born and raised on Dharug land. So, you know, even if you turn on the TV now, looks like the way you did decades ago, but that's a story for another day. Or maybe it's a story for today. But even talking about seeing the stories that we have, I feel like today in this Talanoa, we do have a very unique opportunity to speak to established as well as emerging Pacific Island creatives

5:03KT: that will benefit from tapping in or gaming the game. So I'd love to hear a little bit about the Fresh Blood initiative and how it works.

5:13Jessica: Absolutely. I think you're right. Initiatives like this are really important. I mean, we could talk about representation for days. Days. But yeah, I think it is a really cool opportunity to talk about the fact that initiatives like this allow people who are misrepresented or underrepresented to have a shot. And so Fresh Blood is a program between the ABC and Screen Australia and specifically a comedy initiative.

5:44Jessica: It's been running for a while. A lot of massive shows that you'd know that I can't remember off the top of my head have gotten up from this initiative. So it's competitive, but it's also really beneficial. Gives projects legs like actual legs because you know there's a lot to be said about initiatives which is again another conversation but what's really valuable about this one is that you actually get funding to create shorts that get released through YouTube on the ABC's YouTube channel.

6:19Jessica: And so rather than kind of going away and developing something that short form and not really being useful post the initiative, This actually allows you to put something out into the world to show off us the work, the stories, all of the above. Like we can actually take that out to market and do something with it. Yeah, because short form is tricky. Short form And when I say short form, mean like ten

6:45Jessica: six, ten minute ep's or, in our case, three, five minute episodes. One of ours is a little bit longer than that, but Well, maybe two. But that's short. You know, you're not watching that stuff on Binge or Netflix, you know? When you go on to streamers or even commercial television, you're watching either half hours or hours. And so hopefully what will happen is stage two of this initiative is that you pitch for a half hour pilot. So actually Bad Ancestors is a six by half hour comedy series. But we've had to create

7:16Jessica: three five minute shorts to showcase what the show is through this initiative to hopefully then get the pilot up off the ground with the ABC. So that's, you know, that's the goal. Fingers crossed.

7:28KT: And it's so interesting. And we'll we'll talk specifically about Bad Ancestors in a second. But it's so interesting to have the actual commentary of being embedded in those spaces and then shout out to Hanel Harris and the team at Sis because it reminded me of Sis and the fact that if we definitely need to talk about it, but better Bad Ancestors is the only Pasifika project in this particular sort of intake, right? Yep. Big question. Feel free to go wherever you need or just stay at the base of this mountain.

8:00KT: But does it feel like an uphill battle to deliver being the only Pasifika project? Or is it more of an exciting opportunity to build a foundation for more stories to come?

8:13Jessica: It's no secret that, you know, this is basically going to be the first of its kind. Like, don't have Pasifika Australian representation on our screens really at all.

8:25KT: Can't Made by centering, humanizing

8:29Jessica: all of the above. Exactly. I mean, what what you know, we might be a supporting character in a show once every three years. Like, you know, I can't remember his name, but that was on Bump, you know, like that was really awesome

8:46Jessica: to see him, you know, get like quite a cool supporting role on Bump. But it's like, yeah, it's few and far between. And, you know, we're not we're not writing our own characters either as well, you know, like it's not for us by us. So yeah, representation is a big thing. And so this being the first is pretty a big deal because we're able to say, you know, we can tell our own stories and not only can we do that, but we can do it fucking well. Yeah.

9:09Jessica: So so, yeah, I think, like, there's a lot of pressure that comes with that. I mean, don't know if you could

9:09Wendy: No. Yeah. Absolutely. I tried to, like, stop

9:17Wendy: my brain from going there because it then I put myself in this, like, pressure sort of, like, having to and oftentimes, we find that we are the only, you know, having to up, like, hold up entire culture on our backs. And for me, I mean, I personally try not to do that because it then I try to stick to the creative of everything. But I also just I see us at the center all the time, point blank period. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

9:44Wendy: You know, like and so I try to always lead with that and that I don't think these are, like, necessarily unusual things because, like, the stuff like this happens to me and my friends and and people that I know it from all all the time, like, in terms of so I'm talking about the the story of it all and more more particularly in the creative of it and creating these, like, things that aren't necessarily seen or produced very often. Mhmm. And so I try not to get

10:12Wendy: into that. And I you know, automatically, you do you look you look at the when when the announcement gets made and you see that all the teams that that have been that have been picked up. Mhmm. It's it's hard to to kind of be like, oh, damn, we're the we're the only ones, we always are the only ones.

10:28Jessica: Yes. We want there can only be one only be one Pacific Islander project. Like, there can only be one any any diverse group of people up against white folk. It's always the way we are constantly in competition with each other. And that's what sucks. But that's not on us. That's on them. That's on the industry. Absolutely on the industry.

10:51Wendy: Yeah, and I just I think it's just such an honor and privilege to be working with other Pacific Islanders in the creative team, other black creators, brown creators, like, you know, working together on this. Just fills me with so much pride, but also excitement and wanting to go out there and do more and engage with more other creatives like us, but also it's an a whole new audience that people apparently, the industry didn't know existed. Apparently. Knock. Knock. Yeah. We're here. Yeah. We're here. Okay.

11:22KT: Yeah, you don't need to let us in. We're gonna let us in. Know how you do the facts. Yeah, right? We're just gonna let ourselves in. That's fine. We've talked about industry stuff, which I think is very valuable, especially to emerging creatives for Pasifika people especially in so called Australia. But I kinda wanna talk about the creativity. And Wendy, you said something that I wanna pick up on in when you're creating, you try and focus on the art as opposed to is it sellable? Is it packageable? Is it understandable? Does it pander?

11:54KT: Is it does it have a Sandra Bullock in it? Like, does it have what we needed to have? How is it being able to create art? Is it hard to shut out the fact that it might not be considered or regarded in the way that you need it when you're inside of that creating process?

12:12Wendy: Yeah. Look, it it is. It is. I think initially early early stages when you're you're in the creation like, phase of it all, personally, I just lead with what my gut tells me without any sort of like, oh, we haven't heard from, like, these this community or, like, if we if we put this character, what does that say about this? You know, like, all these those, which are, like, really

12:37Wendy: important things to dissect when we when we move to the later stages. But initially, I just go with my gut. And I think that's always led me into the right direction because I think, like, you know, now we have Bad Ancestors. And I think that comes from, like, this hunger. Right. And this, like, desire to want to see particular stories from from our communities that that, like, people don't even associate with us. Yeah. Which I'm just like, oh, you don't understand.

13:06Wendy: Everybody I know has had some fuck shit like this happen or some wild, bizarre thing that's completely random and, like, chaotic. And it's like, why not just, like, why don't we just go there? Balls to the wall. Let's just, like, tell it. And I I'm I'm I'm I'm a big, like, in my I've got this little Post it. This sounds really wanky. But in my in my to be no. In my

13:31Wendy: on my wall, I've always I've thought this little, thing that I wrote to myself. It's like, you know, you you can think I'm small, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can that I think small. There we go. And so I don't let those things try to stop me from

13:46Wendy: from writing what I want to write or or creating a world that I see that I know that at the at the pulse of it, my people exist in this way.

13:46KT: Yeah. Well, let's make a declaration because if this doesn't come a TV show, I'm standing outside of all the offices and being wherever I need to be because this needs to happen. And I just wanna touch on the fact that we are essentially on a global stage. Hopefully, we get to a point where globally, our friends and lovers can

14:13KT: digest Bad Ancestors and potentially like different iterations of Bad Ancestors around. But what I really loved about Bad Ancestors is you didn't feel the need to be like, oh, we're Melanesian. Oh, we're PNG. This is us. This is who we are to have to explain to or even just like people in Australia

14:32KT: that don't really have any sort of overlap and that sort of thing. Was that a conscious sort of thing? But or is it just like, I'm just gonna write it. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

14:42Wendy: Yeah. Look, I think initially, if if I just like, I'm just gonna write it up. I'm just gonna write it up and see what falls onto the page. Then afterwards, obviously, in the edits, there was more conversation. But then I also I'm just like, we're there are certain conversations that I think were beyond. Mhmm. And I don't necessarily want to cater to an audience. Yes, Wendy. Wendy. Catch up. Exactly. Exactly.

15:10Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I'm like, I know I know my people are there. Mhmm. And the rest of y'all can catch up whenever you're good and goddamn well to catch up. But right now, we're here and we start here and we're just gonna keep moving moving forward. And there are certain things that you're like, I don't need to explain for you all. Yeah. Find out your own themselves. Try. Yeah.

15:28Wendy: Sorry. That's a little bit spicy, but, you know.

15:28KT: No, I love I love that. It's just like, I'm not here to baby you. We're here. We're talking here. Meet us here or go into another room and learn. Yeah.

15:40Jessica: Enough of catering to white folk. Like, we've been there, done that. You know, we if we're going to tell a story, it's going to be our story our way. So I think we're at a really exciting time where, you know, people try to say, oh, you know, you're not ready, you're not established, you're emerging.

15:57Jessica: You know, we people of color get stuck into that box in the industry where you just don't get taken seriously enough. You don't get the funding, all the rest of it. But, yeah, we're at an exciting time now where we've proven to the industry that we're more than capable. And now we're starting to, you know, get the opportunities to showcase that. And even just like defending like jokes, like because they did it. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, just because you don't get it. That's right. Yeah. I mean, the people that we that we know this is for, I don't get it. You know what I mean? So it's very intentional in that way. Yeah, it's like I've explained it to you. My sisters have explained it to you. What aren't you getting babes? If we've explained it to you, what's the problem?

16:40KT: My partner Oti's Kenyan and he had a great time. He didn't need that sort of like shorthand of understanding sort of things. Were just in That's amazing. We loved it. We need more, but we love the screeners that we got for Bad Ancestors. And it felt effortless, I think is the best way to summarize what we have for Bad Ancestors so far. From a storytelling process, the premise was very succinct and it was very clean. So when you were doing the storytelling, when you were when you were creating Bad Ancestors,

17:12KT: what was it like making sure, even if you're not explaining to the audience who you are and, you know, who what we're doing, what was it like to make sure you have a clear premise and then also ensure that the humor and, you know, the the giggle gaggle he he's in the story as well.

17:31Wendy: Yeah. Look. It's it's such a bad it's such a it's such a, like, a big world. Yeah. And so the challenge of it was because it is a short form series was to really kind of We was like, oh my god, I don't know if I know.

18:01KT: You can say whatever you want.

18:04Wendy: So we had to kind of really get to the the like the heart of it all is like, okay, who are these two who are these two people? How are they friends? Because we really want I think the the heart of Bad Ancestors and the strength of it is seeing these two, you know, best friends kind of like millennial best friends just kind of like try to adult, but also kind of go situation by situation without fucking it up.

18:29Wendy: And so I kind of really was trying to get to the when you that's the challenge of doing or writing in a short form is getting to the guts of it, but also having the right amount of comedy and also the right amount of heart as well. Because we wanna, you know, where and I think that explains us, our community is that we're we're just really funny Mhmm. Funny, funny people with a lot of fucking heart. Yeah. And I'm just really

18:53Wendy: get to that in a short period of time was was the biggest challenge. But I think I'm hoping that people that's that is shine is gonna shine through, and people are gonna be able to kind of really feel and see that.

18:53Jessica: 100%. I just wanna say Wendy is a fucking incredible writer,

19:09Jessica: and that is part of it. I'm just gonna give you your flowers for one second. That's why the shorts are really strong because, you know, if anyone out there is an aspiring writer or is, you know, making short films, you'll know, like taking anything that's that's a big a big idea, a big world and squeezing it into short bites is one of the hardest things you could do. It's like you could write a feature length script, but coming up with that one sentence log line is the hardest part. To

19:38Jessica: do that takes a lot of craft, a lot of skill. And just to even make it good is one thing. And then to add the heart, add the comedy, you know, have all of that really shine through is is it comes with good writing. And so, you know, that's what has me so excited is because Wendy is really bringing these characters to life and doing it, you know, giving them the justice they deserve at the same time.

20:01Wendy: Aw. Thank you. I'm just gonna sit over with, you know, that specific wanna get rid of We're gonna be on our humble shit. You know?

20:08KT: I want you to live in it and and to, you know, marinate in that, Wendy, because you absolutely deserve it. And 2024, we're just gonna love on each other, and we're just going to support each other. That's exactly what it should be. And, you know, even talking about Bad Ancestors, comedy, heartfelt, like genre, who is she? If you're telling great stories, it's everything. And even, you know, like interdisciplinary, it's just who we are. It's the stories we tell. It's everything.

20:36Wendy: It's just a way to say we express ourselves in different ways. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. We're not defined by one thing, you know, and that's the thing. And that's how we've managed to preserve so much of our culture is that we were so fluid, you know, and culture is meant to be fluid. Know, we change, we're shape shifters. We celebrate life and our people in so many ways. And I think like that just comes naturally to us. Yeah.

21:06KT: Even the balancing all around is so great. I made notes, but I can't I won't share them because a lot of it is me cackling over the dialogue in Bad Ancestors. Especially because they are so short, but I'm just like, banger banger banger banger. It's all great. Were there any banger lines or scenes that you loved that you had to leave on the cutting room floor that perhaps you could share?

21:06Wendy: Yeah. I'm dirty with Jess on on on one and and then

21:06KT: Oh, okay. Okay.

21:39Wendy: We're just guys, like, we're we're this is actually the moment that I'm using now to know. It's an arbitration. Yeah. Yeah. This is yeah. You this court. Alright. Let's have a trial. There there were some, Yeah, there were some moments. And like, again, because it is a short form and, you know, we could we could like I say, this is a big world that we're playing in. And, you know, I think having to stick to the time constraints, there were some

22:07Jessica: Yeah. I mean, the scripts were 10 pages and like, you know, for reference, it's, you know, on screen is like a minute a page. So,

22:17Wendy: so they were long.

22:20Jessica: Like if I had to talk to each other, let's talk to each other. So we were already starting with long scripts.

22:27KT: We say we're loving each other, but it's like Pacific Island, the love song. Yeah,

22:33Wendy: Drag me with love, please. Drag me with love.

22:37Jessica: So, yeah, it's always a balance. But this is the production as a whole, know, like making any kind of content is one of the hardest things you could do.

23:00Wendy: No. Having Jess really have be really part of the process and and honestly, like, really keep me in line was exactly what we what we needed. Yeah. Because it happened right till the cows come home, you know? And it was really just I'm really fortunate and privileged that Jess bought what this show is. Yeah. Because this show has been floating around for a few years now. And and I just just like heard well, you know, Jess and I met through the another initiative.

23:29Wendy: And I I I was like straight away was like, oh, this is another Pacific Islander woman in the industry. We need to we need to, like, link up and Yeah. Together and show each other and our communities love along the way. Mhmm. And so, like, a huge blessing to be able to have Jess sort of at the helm and putting together probably one of the nicest teams I have ever had the privilege of working with. Lucky.

23:54Jessica: Being on set up for the for those days and Shout outs. Let's do some shout outs. You know? I mean, we we we're so lucky to work with a majority BIPOC crew. It's true what Wendy said. Like, we we have the most amazing crew. We So have Vanilla Dubuu who was our director. Shout out to Vanilla. Jesse DeVaz who was an incredible queer POC editor. We worked with Luca BP who was a super well known DOP down on Gadigal Land. Lifesavers. We had Yasmin, our iconic hair and icon

24:29Wendy: obsessed

24:30Jessica: with her. Who else? I mean, Heba Ali, who was our, you know, our director Rizelle, who I hope know from the socials, who was our sister and basically all of the above. Brilliant. Just an absolute queen of production. So, yeah, we had a really killer team that helped us bring this to life.

24:51KT: Shout outs to the team, like and you can and this also goes back to the two of you as a dynamic duo is it needs to be done with a lot of love. And you said that as well, Jess, like, you need to make sure and it's kind of like a family. Like, I love my sister, but we tell each other what we need to tell each other. And that's how it feels hearing you guys create Bad Ancestors.

25:14Jessica: I think so. I think like, you know, you can operate in this industry and be really gatekeepy. And there's like, you know, the industry is set is like, you know, there are systemic issues that kind of encourage certain behaviors. And I think like as Pacific people, just inherently, we're not like that. Or at least I hope not. And so that kind of energy is what we try to just put out into the world is like, we're already up against it. So let's just ride the wave together,

25:47Jessica: like literally. Like let's support each other and do this together because there is room for all of us, even though the industry tries to tell us there isn't with, you know, always being like the only only ever being one. And so, yeah, I think I think like just,

26:02Jessica: you know, and I could be an asshole. Like, we're not all going to get along, you know, like, you know, it's but it is. I very much do believe it is about finding your people, finding people who just get it, get you, get the stories you're telling or get your way of working. And that goes across the board on any project, because if no one's aligning, you're going to tell when you watch it. You're going to be like, okay, this is so confused. And it's because the people who made it were confused.

26:27Jessica: So if you're finding your people and your community and people who understand the story, which we so luckily had and very grateful for the team that we had behind Bad Ancestors who brought it to life. But yeah, it all starts with Wendy. So, you know, once it's on the page, you know, it's up to all of us to take it from there and bring it to screen. So

26:45Wendy: And there's something really special, you know, being able to, like, walk on set and seeing the team. I don't know if it's just I'm just, you know, sentimental, but, you know, you just look at the the team that Jess has sort of, you know, has put together and you just already feel that we're we're, a, we're doing something really special and b, what a privilege it is that we get to do this together. And so it's the proverbial taking your bra off and feeling super comfortable. Yeah.

27:13Wendy: It's very safe. And you just know that people that there are certain things that don't necessarily conversations you need to have that you always find yourself having. Like, people are just we're there already. And so we already have this language that that because because of lived shared lived experiences. You know what I mean? And so I think, like, it's I mean, sometimes it's that this stuff is intentional that they don't want us to be working together and doing amazing things.

27:39KT: I think Cloak and dagger shit. Right.

27:42Wendy: That's exactly it. And so I think, you know, being able to, you know, use the Fresh Blood initiative to be able to see that happen, play out, and have the opportunity of doing that is important, but also really special for each and every one of us. And says to everyone watching and observing,

28:00Jessica: you can do this too. Yeah. You know, like, have the capacity. It doesn't matter how much the industry is gonna tell you you don't, you do. And there's people here who can support you. Like, we are a family, like, on a project, but also just on a community level in in in the industry and out of the industry. Yeah. Very much in the industry. Like, being delusional works, guys. Period. You know what I mean? Shout out to the delulu. Shout out to the delulu girlies.

28:25Wendy: Get your bag. Get your do your thing.

28:29KT: But that, like, this is what I love. And I this is the first time I've met both of you, which is so wild because it feels so effortless and it feels so great. But it's one of those things where, at least for the way that I see the both of your careers and even talking about Bad Ancestors, it's when we come up, we all come up together.

28:49Wendy: Period. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I'm a big believer of, like, wherever you go, you bring your ancestors with you. Mhmm. Right? And I think inherently, we our people are with us. Mhmm. We whatever room, whatever table we're sitting at. Mhmm. We're a package deal, guys. Mhmm. Yeah.

29:09KT: And speaking of the cast and crew, was it a conscious thing to bring people on board or was it just so natural of networking and being a part of the creative space?

29:22Jessica: When did you pass the whole show?

29:25Wendy: What what what I mean? A lot of these, I'm very fortunate that I have being an actor have, like, lovely other lovely actor friends. I don't know why I'm saying it like listen. There's a lot of talented people out there that and we I was just really intentional

29:41Wendy: in being able to get like, a, I knew that they could do the job really funny and also just good humans. Yeah. Yeah. They're lovely people to work with. The best. And so I think that for me is always, like, a leading thing. I just wanna work with, like, really solid humans. And then the crew is all just as beautiful work.

30:02Jessica: You know? So it's team effort. Like, and that's the thing. And the exciting thing about collaborations, because filmmaking is collaboration. Like, you cannot make a film on your own. I mean, you can. Maybe a stop motion. But, like, you know, generally, you need a team. Filmmaking is a team sport. And so that's why it's really important that you're working with people that you trust, that get it, all those things I said before, because you need to lean on each other like you do your family. Your project is your baby.

30:33Jessica: So you're bringing all these people in to kind of everyone's going to touch it in some way, shape or form. And so, yeah, it's important that everyone aligns. And so I think it's been amazing working with Wendy because, yeah, we've been able to figure out what we can both bring to the project and tag team it. And working with Rizelle is the exact same thing, who was my assistant producer,

30:58Jessica: because, yeah, you need you need a team. You need a family to bring something like this to life. So, yeah, bringing together really cool, talented, clever people is the dream.

31:09Wendy: Yeah. We did it.

31:11KT: You did it. You

31:13Jessica: Ariana DeBose, you did the thing. Yeah. I'm just gonna give us our own flowers. One second.

31:19KT: I love it because we've talked about industry. We've talked about creativity. Even for me, and I love film, producer is that elusive sort of like enigma in the shadows behind the scenes that I assume does any and everything.

31:36Wendy: Yeah.

31:38KT: What is there a way to succinctly describe what a producer does or specifically on Bad Ancestors, what you did or what was out of your reach or was it everything?

31:48Jessica: Trust. My mom still doesn't get what I do. I mean, I think that anyone who works the film industry. It's like, what do you actually do? Like you go to work and do a bit of this and then you go home. But producing, I mean, the easiest way to explain it is you're responsible for the project from start

32:06Jessica: to end and beyond. Because I think like what a lot of people don't realise is that when you make a film or TV show and it goes out into the world, that's not the end of its life. Like there is still a lot of stuff that happens behind the scenes. You might be pitching it like we are to get, you know, the half hour pilot up and hopefully a series. Like there's just a lot going on behind a project and behind what you kind of see on your screen.

32:31Jessica: And yeah, a producer is responsible for everything. But that is why it is a team sport because yes, the responsibility sits with the producer, but the framework is that you bring in a trusted cast and crew who help bring that to life. And so, yeah, if shit goes down, you know, something happens on set, you're over budget, you know, the schedule changes,

32:59Jessica: whatever it is, yeah, that 's down on the producer. So, yes, it might look like a really like glitz and glam job from the outside in because you're like, oh, wow. Like, you get control over everything. But like, that's not what it's about, at least for me. For me as producer, I operate in a way that's like, I want to be a true collaborator in the process. And I want to leverage the creative that I'm working with and the creative works that I'm a part of. I want to contribute, but also

33:29Jessica: elevate and amplify it at the same time. So, yeah, I know it is a bit of a hard job to explain. And until you until people do it, they're like, oh, I hate this.

33:40Wendy: Like, this is what producing is. Like, you don't just get the money and like it to run around like

33:46Jessica: that. It is not that. It is it is very much legal. It's accounting. It's yes. The creative is a huge part of it, but there's a lot of other stuff.

33:53Wendy: Couldn't be me.

33:56KT: And, you know, the credentials of it all. We are focusing on Bad Ancestors. But for our friends and lovers that are tuning in that aren't aware, Jess is a filmmaker as well. And, you know, many moons ago at the Pasifika Film Festival, I watched her short, The Alexander Ball. Tens, tens, tens across the board.

34:15KT: Bad Ancestors as well. But I just wanted to point that out as well because it's you've achieved so much, Wendy, you've achieved so much. But the the overflowing generosity is something that, you know, maybe it should be taught, but it can't be taught usually. It's something that's innately bought out as well.

34:34Jessica: Yeah. Period. I mean, thank you so much. That's so nice. But I think, yeah, that's all part of it. Like, working in the arts just in general. Like, you know, Wendy is a playwright as well. So Wendy jumps between playwriting and screenwriting, which is

34:46KT: Award winning. Yeah.

34:49Wendy: Guys, you know Award winning.

34:54Jessica: Yes.

34:55Wendy: And so Let the funding reflect. Yeah. Let the funding reflect.

35:02Jessica: But, you know, I think that there's a part of it that's like, you know, we're always having to work 10 times harder. Like, that's a secret. Like, you know, when you're a minority in any industry, like, the pressure is on for you to deliver. Like, not just deliver, but deliver.

35:16Jessica: And I think like we've had that energy the whole way through even on Bad Ancestors, but in any space we're in, it's like we need to be operating at a higher level than everyone else because, yeah, we're the only ones. But also we know we have the pressure of being the only one and being like, this is an amazing opportunity and a privilege that I can't waste. So it's like all of this kind of pressure weighs into it. So yeah, it's nice to be able to, I guess, share in that in a collaboration. Yeah.

35:44Wendy: I live I live in a lot of times I lead with a lot of delusion. And so Jess is really good for living in reality and being like Like a yanking duck. This is actually and I'm like, what do you mean? I mean, that's why we're a good team.

36:00Jessica: Okay. We get each other. So I think yeah, like I've said a million times, that's really important. So like find your people and like shout out to Jesse, who is the editor of Bad Ancestors, who also edited the Alexander Ball, is just such a generous and very talented human being. Like editing, just shout out to the editors because people don't realize how much of what you see on screen comes down to the cutting room floor. Like it comes to the edit.

36:27Jessica: And so, you know, Jesse has really come through for us and has done an incredible job. And that's on BIPOC. That's on queer peers. That's on industry. That's on

36:37KT: putting us right in front of your face. Right? Yeah. You know, like, there's career stuff, there's achievements, there's like industry acknowledgement, but the two of you may be behind closed doors, but you don't seem to have a problem being 10 toes down in it, about it, and, you know, always standing in it. Do both of you sometimes feel a conflict between industry accolades, whether it's because it's necessary to get what you need to get or whether it's a personal sort of thing versus community support?

37:15KT: Do you find it hard to balance industry accolades versus community support?

37:21Wendy: Yeah. Those faces. Those faces. I like the answer is yes.

37:27Jessica: I mean, it's I have opinions about industry accolades and, you know, like that being kind of like the standard that we're all supposed to be aiming for. I I have gone through the motions of understanding that that is not what's important about the work. What is important is that it reaches community. It's for community, it's by community. And that is what is most important, I guess, just speaking for myself, for me, not so much the awards. I think what I like about the awards and the accolades is that helps,

38:01Jessica: you know, people like Wendy who are up and coming and fucking killing it. Like, obviously, the industry will look at the awards and that's that's what they look at to, like, you know, put us on hierarchy in the industry. But that's not actually real. Like what's real is what the work is doing. And so, yeah, for me, community comes first And the accolades are like, you know, sure, like happy to go there. But the priority for me is getting this in front of as many people from community as possible.

38:31Wendy: Yeah. Look, the accolades Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, because being an actor as well, there is a part of I guess it's the actor in me that looks towards that. But also, first and foremost, I'm a I'm a I'm an artist. And so I always it to me, it's it's it's about the story, the story and the creation of something that is beyond me. And so I mean, I think the accolades are like a plus. Like, it's just like, okay, that's great. However, I know I know

39:05Wendy: that this is important. I know this is good. For myself, if I've written something for long enough, a part of me is like, no. Now this story or this play or this series is is is gonna go on and do its thing. Mhmm. And that's now beyond me. And it's gonna go out and live its own life. I don't necessarily own it in that way because these people is and these these that the journeys that they're going on is gonna happen.

39:32Wendy: And so and it's nice to get the accolades, but it's also I think it's it's more important for me that my community, our community see it and like connect with it and feel that we can be in these places, that we can walk into it and sit in our power and own it and and live these crazy chaotic lives and that we're not, you know, on the fringes looking in. Like, I mean, we are the culture. Let's just get it to us. You know? So

40:07Jessica: It's true. Yeah. Then the accolades are great, but they're not everything. Yeah. We should I get that. Yeah. We don't that's not what I'm striving for is, like, to win awards. Like like, that's great because it helps people and all the rest of it, but it's like, that's not the goal. The goal is meaningful, powerful, impactful content that is gonna change things, you know? Yeah.

40:25KT: And it yeah. This is definitely like for another day, but it was more to get it where we need to get it. So who needs to see it? It needs that sort of validation from structures that weren't even ours.

40:40Wendy: Yeah. It's very tricky. That's which is I'm like, I understand why there is that desire or that drive to get that validation or least to kind of bring it to that place where we are on the same as everyone else. Like, stuff can be taken seriously. Our stuff can be good. And so I understand that it's a very delicate back. Yeah. So it's yeah, it's it's you and honestly, you go back and forth. You go you go back and forth with it. Some days you want to be able to

41:16Wendy: to be nominated or you wanna be able to, like, be able to access a certain thing or be seen in a certain way because, you know, you're just as good or sometimes, you know, you better. Mhmm. And then other days it's like, you know, you you you meet an auntie on the street and they tell you Bare. Like and that is everything. Yeah. Yeah. That's all the awards in that one interaction. You know what mean? So it's yeah. You just ask me a different day, you know? Could change. It could change. True.

41:50KT: But it's it's definitely the framing, and it's also coming back to the lens. And we are the lens, and that's where the validation or that's where the sort of support is so important. And I guess this is like the rallying sort of war cry of, you know, what can we as audiences, as Pasifika people do to support this and ensure it gets to the point of the thirty minute pilot to the next stage?

42:17Jessica: I mean, of course, just to to share it and tell us what you think. Like, that's really all it is. It's just like watch it. You know, hopefully you love it. Mhmm. If If you don't, that's okay as well. But yeah, I think like feedback's always great too. I personally love it. I love to see what people loved, what people had questions about, all that fun stuff is great. But I think, you know, for the most part, it's just about supporting and sharing as much as possible.

42:44Wendy: Yeah. Just, you know, and I think for for me, it's just being knowing that it's it's landing where it's supposed to land. Mhmm. Because often oftentimes, you know, I mean, I was like growing up in PNG in Madang, shout out to Madang. Like, I was didn't know where if it was possible to do this. Mhmm. It was possible to one day be able to, like, see Papua Guineans on TV or on stages and, you know, being able to have that reach.

43:17Wendy: Right? Or someone in the islands to be able to, like, watch something like Bad Ancestors and be like, yo, I can be random and chaotic as well. Like or, like, you know, for a millennial to be like, maybe I'm not so much of a fucker. This is like and I'm like, it's real life, guys. There's a lot of us out there that just don't know what the hell we're doing. But I think like, yeah, just being able for community to really kind of just connect. And if you'll love

43:44Wendy: it, we love it. If you don't love it, that's okay too. Guess what? It's there. Yeah. And it's there. It exists. And that's that's the main thing. Yeah.

43:56KT: We don't need to go into a lot of detail, but it's so textual, Bad Ancestors. And it's so like, it's just banger after banger in such a short sort of format because we follow our protagonist, Eric, and I'm not gonna get into, like, a lot of detail. But even the premise of auditioning for or on behalf of or a piece of Shakespeare, for example, in a way that isn't reflective of our experiences, but it's a way to pander and make it digestible and consumable for white people.

44:33Wendy: Yeah. Sorry. I'm like, yeah. Well, yeah. Facts. Yeah. Yeah. We did that. Yeah. We did that. We did that. And let me just say since we're here and, you know, we've kind of been relatively spicy this whole thing. And and that was that is actually based on a real life experience that I had. I'm not sure. And and so I was like, surely I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. And so I remember having that that set experience.

45:00Wendy: And I was like, I'm gonna write about this one day because it is wild that this shit happens. But be it's also kind of like comedy gold in there that's I think that there's a lot of things that we can. And, you know, we use comedy as a way to be able just to deal with, like, things that happen to us unsolicited. And I think that's really where where I like a lot of the stuff that well, the gems that I find, you know, truth is often stranger than fiction or more ridiculous. Yeah. So, just always to kind of start from that place.

45:36Jessica: Which is why representation is so important because people who have experiences haven't seen that portrayed on screen before and can't share in that and heal with that content. And so I think that's definitely what stood out for me even first reading the pitch decks, let alone the scripts is like all of this is so relatable for so many people yet has face it. But where is that representation? Where is that experience being shared on screen? It's not. So

46:07Jessica: that is definitely what I hope audiences connect with in some way. And I think they naturally will because what we do cover in the series is is a lot of BIPOC shared experiences.

46:18KT: Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think a lot of us in some sort of instance has experienced that. Maybe not in an art space, maybe in a corporate space and it's like, yeah, been there. Been there. Feel it. Let's laugh about it, but also pull them up.

46:35Wendy: Yeah. It's it's so it's like, well, something that's so like like walking into a room. Mhmm. You know, why people just why don't we get to just walk into a room and that be it? You know? And I think like have this for us, there's so many, as you said, textures and and and nuances to be able just to do such a simple thing as occupying the space in Yeah. In in what in a workplace, you know, it's just yeah. And I think, like, having

47:07Wendy: seeing that in Eric, I I'm I'm hoping and I think that a lot of people will relate to that.

47:07KT: Before I get to the last question,

47:14KT: is there anything that I haven't covered today, or in regards to just how people can watch it or just in general that you wanna add?

47:21Wendy: Yeah. I'd I'd like to add as well. Like, I think writing initially writing Bad Ancestors, one of my things that I really wanted to explore and also really share with anybody that came across this is the relationship of that we have with First Nation mob here on on on so called Australia. And a lot of my friends growing up were indigenous people. Because I grew up up in Far North Queensland.

47:52Wendy: And so a lot of my besties are black and and First Nation. And so the story between Nora and Charli is about when you have this sort of cross cultural relationship and also that we don't see very often. And that this understanding that they are also part of the Pacific. So I really wanted to be able to create this thing where we could all come together on this and be able to share that together and celebrate it. And I think that's something that I have been wanting to see on screen and on stage

48:25Wendy: for a while because it was so much it is so much of my life is my relationship with my with my best friends and where they're from and how we how we connect with each other and in our shared experiences. And I think we as communities coming together on that and being that we are all all Pacific Islanders.

48:46Wendy: And so I think I just wanted to kind of like be able to Yes. To express that.

48:46Jessica: I love that. Yes. That that that was a huge part of the making of Bad Ancestors. Shout out Joseph Althouse who performed as Charli on the show. And I mean, I'm obsessed. Like, I'm obsessed with them. I'm obsessed with Charli, Nora. I'm obsessed with Joseph and Wendy. There's people, there's characters, all of it. Yeah, I think that's super important just as we navigate the industry, navigate our lives on stolen land. So

49:18Jessica: always keeping in mind our First Nations brothers and sisters when we're operating in any space. And obviously, in the arts and what we're doing, that's always going to be front and center. So period.

49:30KT: It's that collective mana, collective love and collective joy. Yeah.

49:35Wendy: Yeah. And I think I think it's the industry will wanna separate us. Society will wanna, you know, put us into different groups. Yeah. Boxes and and history will history that they write will will say that we're all disconnected from each other, but we're not. We know that we're not. Mhmm. Oh, and and our own history, our our history that That's right. That has told us that we're not. Yeah. And so for me, it's always been about coming to that and really celebrate celebrating,

50:06Wendy: but seeing it. I want to see it. I want to feel it. And I hope more people want to as well.

50:13KT: Thank you both so much for your time. I've had a great time and I would love to keep talking and I hope we continue to keep speaking and just like loving and having joy. I think that's so important as well.

50:30Wendy: Thank you to you. I wanna give you your flowers. Thank you for putting on up, you know, putting on for our people. You do incredible work and we really appreciate you and thank you for this. Thank you.

50:41KT: Okay, I wasn't ready for that.

50:45Jessica: The hardest working people in your area, KT, honestly.

50:52Wendy: Yeah. Like, we see you. We see you, and we appreciate you. And Oti, we see you both. And we are grateful for your presence and for you doing what you do for all of us. And so yeah. For that So important. Thank you. Yeah. We're grateful. Thank you.

51:11KT: But like other Pasifika women, find it hard to accept praise and love, but I will I will work on it. I will work on it. But I love you so much and thank you. We finished our reviews with a recommendation. So what would you pair with Bad Ancestors as a double feature, whether it's a TV show, film, documentary, anything?

51:27Jessica: Oh. Yeah. That's tough.

51:29KT: That is While you're thinking,

51:32Jessica: and I'm glad you didn't mention it throughout the interview, Black Comedy. I was gonna say that. That was gonna be what I was gonna say. I was gonna whisper it to you so we could both be like, yes, we know. We we talked about this before. I mean, Black Comedy was always a reference point in the pitch. Absolutely. Like, it was I mean, that that was quite a trailblazing series

51:51Wendy: Yeah. I would say. 100. Well, that's a really good question, and it's throw. I'm like, what could I pair it with? No.

52:00Jessica: I mean, you should pair it with Wendy's other show, I'm Fine, It's Fine. Saying that wrong, aren't I? It's Fine, I'm Fine. I'm fine. I'm It's Fine, I'm Fine. Yeah. A show that Wendy starred in. No.

52:12Wendy: Yeah. Black Comedy. Like, was trying to think, like, something else as well. Yeah. But, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Black Comedy is iconic. Yeah. And I mean, shout out to to that whole creative team that came together on that and created this this magic in our in our canon that we can relate to. And so, yeah, let's let's land with that. Shout out to shout out to the shout out to the family. Yeah.

52:39KT: Well, Malo 'aupito 'aupito on behalf of Oti, asante sana, thank you so much for your time and let's continue to love on each other. Friends and lovers, make sure you support Bad Ancestors when it comes out as well. But thank you so much, Wendy and Jess. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Drew. Thank you.