Insecure – Issa Wrap, Okay?

Full transcript of Insecure – Issa Wrap, Okay?.

0:00KT: Welcome to another week in the For Your Reference household. And while you are perusing the reference bibliotheca, we do have two existing episodes. The first covering seasons one through three and another covering season four. Be nasty. Do what you want, but we do have those episodes. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends, and remember me different lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. It's your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Circle the block one last time and awkwardly bump right into your on the couch, cereal eating, birthday forgetting ex. Join

1:03KT: us in wholly realized character arcs and all the feels where we got y'all and I got mine. With the fifth and final season of HBO's Insecure, the ever eternal Issa Rae this week. Wow, Oti. Tell me about it. I will continue to tell you about it. We most recently had our Christmas episode. And as much as we have loved and nurtured and held to our bosoms, the TV series Viking, you didn't feel like it was necessarily perfect. But I do

1:41KT: dare say on behalf of both of us that season five of Insecure is perfect in every way.

1:41Oti: It is. I don't think I've ever felt that emotional watching a show end and wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

1:41KT: You were proud thugging in the corner trying to pull those tears back up.

1:41Oti: I was. I I really tried.

1:41KT: Your tears were doing bench presses on your eyelids.

2:03KT: I think for the most part in the finale, you were okay, but it was the documentary that kind of

2:03Oti: It's the one that that opened the floodgates.

2:11Oti: And just seeing what Issa Rae has done for the community and what she, stands for as a person, as someone who appreciates all the opportunities afforded to her. It's just bloody marvelous to behold. And the love that the cast and crew feel for her. You know, you can tell that there's something genuine in there and Insecure meant a whole lot more than a show for a lot, a lot of people.

2:11KT: Oh, yeah. It it definitely

2:40KT: painted a more genuine portrayal as opposed to the fake veneer when players were talking about Michael Jordan in He was a cool guy. Yeah. He was the best. He bullied punching me. It's cool. It's alright. He bullied us thirty years later. I'm still talking about it on a ESPN documentary,

2:58KT: but I'm fine. Don't worry. I'm fine.

3:02KT: Don't worry about it. Friends and lovers, like I mentioned in the cold open, you can be nasty. You can follow along. You know, the we do love a lot of you that continue to tune in because for some reason that we aren't qualified to understand, you choose to come week in, week out, even if you haven't watched what we're covering. And we are five seasons deep with this show. So feel free to stay, but we're definitely going to absolutely spoil this

3:35KT: episode and this season and and really nurture it with the love that Issa has continued to water. And I think that's something that I really enjoyed about the documentary as well because they talked a lot about, you know, it's not necessarily paying it forward, but it's understanding. And, you know, Prentice talks about for decades, he was the only black writer in the room. Right? And how so many of the writers have gone on to get their overall deals. Natasha Rothwell, shout out,

4:05KT: not necessarily inside of Insecure, but Tracy Oliver was involved in creating Awkward Black Girl, which was before Insecure and she's got Harlem. And I guess while we're here, we're shouting out Quinta Brunson because we fucking love her and Abbott Elementary. But there is something beautiful and there's something natural about having people embedded within structures that traditionally

4:30KT: didn't really open for diversity aside from a white person that's brunette because that's what tall, dark and handsome means. Right?

4:30Oti: Yeah. And especially when Issa talks about all the struggles that she had coming up to, you know, pitching Insecure and what she was told by executives, you know, this won't work because, a, your skin color, your skin like it's she overcome so much. Yeah. And to see her pioneering and pushing forward and acting as an ambassador, and even more than that, just it blows me away.

5:07Oti: It humbles me. And fuck sakes, man. It's one of the most beautiful things you can see. It's a love fest. Okay. Yeah.

5:16KT: There's obviously, we can continue to love and lord Issa Rae and I continue to sploosh at her altar as much as I can. This is is quite funny and I know Oti found this very funny. Like, I talk a lot of mad shit on this podcast and I do believe wow. Can can can you at least try to take a second to react?

5:16Oti: I'm agreeing with you, mate.

5:16KT: But I do stand by a lot of the mad shit that I talk and one of them is as much as I fucking love something,

5:48KT: don't like, it hurts me more to see a show continue beyond its prime. Right? And, again, if we're gonna love and lord and accolade Issa Rae, to be able to create a show with her vision of having five seasons and ending it on her terms on a network like HBO, that is unheard of. It is unprecedented. But like Melina Matsoukas was saying, hopefully, it's not the last we see of

5:48Oti: It this won't be.

5:48KT: Of this amount of control to be able to have over your own IP. Right?

6:22KT: And we learned from Don Cheadle's Al-G Rhythm in Space Jam, IP you know, IP can kind of mean whoever has the biggest wallet Yeah. Swinging in the room. So I was preparing myself. When season five the announcement for season five came out and it was being announced as the last season, and because we follow Issa outside within within acceptable socially acceptable bounds. But because we follow Issa outside of Insecure,

6:53KT: we knew we were going to continue to see her. And by the way, no one gave Lovebirds enough attention. That's a fucking great film. And before Kumail Nanjiani became the Pakistani Denzel, he was really great in that film with Issa Rae. Yeah. Right? So I knew that I was going to continue to see her, maybe not as the lead in another TV series, but she is loving and lauding and helming a lot of black talent. Yeah. Right? And also, Black Lady Sketch Show. So

7:26KT: I knew I was going to see her outside of the show, so I was fine until we got to the last couple of episodes, till I knew that we had definitive amount of morsels that I could indulge in because, you know, unless it's going to be Oti's Friends reunion, and we need to have like a Living Single reunion, how fucking great would that be?

7:26Oti: That'd be amazing.

7:26KT: Right?

7:50KT: But unless we're going to have a completely even if the royal cast are the same, it's not the same story, it's not the same feel, We're never going to have this beautiful moment in history again. And that really started to hit me. And we never doubted, you know, the penmanship in this show and the intention in this show. You know, a lot of the time, whether it's in the eighties or even like in the twenty twenties, when we're watching a film, you can tell the difference between writing characters

8:20KT: that look like you or just characters that you care about and then writing characters that you wanna shock your audience with. Right? And, you know, love and accolade and shout outs to Mindy Kaling for Sex Lives of College Girls. There were so many moments where we felt like they were going to be really brutal with the female characters. But because there was a lot of love centered around it, it was fine. Yeah. We didn't have the trauma of being a woman. And we also didn't have a lot of black trauma

8:49KT: in Insecure as well. Who would have thought? Like, went through shit, but a lot of it was self inflicted. Yep. Especially with Molly. Yeah. But there we are, friends and lovers. We are in the fifth and final season of Insecure. If you have recently or when it first came out, listened to our first Insecure episode, it really was our first accidental attempt at at a relationship podcast. And you'll be pleased to know, friends and lovers, that unfortunately, it's not political, but unfortunately,

9:27KT: we do sit in separate camps. I will forever love Issa, and I think that definitely no. I definitely know that extends to Issa's character in Insecure. But I do believe I am fierce, so I am a bit deluded, I guess, in that instance. But speaking of a shared delusion, a separate one, but a shared one, Oti is still very firmly Lawrence Hive.

9:27Oti: Yeah. And I just wanna dispel the negativity.

9:27KT: Oh,

9:53Oti: I want to dispel the negativity that surrounds the Lawrence Hive. You know, we've had plenty of YouTubers come down on the hive that say that just because he fucked two ladies and that's why people are for it. You know, because people see Lawrence in themselves, whatever bloody reason it is that you connect with Lawrence, it does not bloody matter. It's been ages since we saw a black character, a black male who succeeds by the his own bloody bootstraps without having to feel that he's lesser,

10:26Oti: that he has to succumb to some sort of, you know, to the power that be, to be himself. Lawrence takes us on a fucking journey. And whatever point it is that you connect and resonate with a character, for you to be labeled as a hive, be it rightly or wrongly, it does not bloody matter. One iota. You know, he is a character that is flawed like Mania. Issa Dee is bloody flawed. Mhmm. But that's part of being bloody human. And the importance of Lawrence, I think Lawrence is the modern day, more relatable Kyle Barker.

11:04Oti: And

11:04KT: Oh, okay.

11:04Oti: And and, you know, it's been ages since we saw a character like him portrayed on TV. Mhmm. And I connect with him so much. And it's just one of those things that I cannot in myself criticize or find fault. I can see the fault, but I don't blame because at the end of the day, we bloody learn, and that's what humans do. We make mistakes. We stumble. We learn. We improve. We grow. We become better people. We become more responsible.

11:34Oti: The aspect in this season where I was cringing, I was holding my head and I'm like, Lawrence, what the bloody hell are you doing? What are you saying to Condola? Condola is crap, but at the end of it, she doesn't deserve all that nonsense she's pushing her.

11:34KT: Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. I'm

11:53KT: going to bookmark this, and I'm going to put it on my pocket because I don't even know how you very smoothly, Kyle Barker smoothly, just slid in there that Condola is crap because I don't agree with that, and we're going to come to that in a second. But friends and lovers, log out of the forum. Otherwise, Oti will offer you a hive bill. Wow.

12:20Oti: Did I do an internet?

12:20KT: Yeah. You do a lot of those. You wanna hear about the NFT, Quotey?

12:28KT: Don't be a botters. Oh, friends and lovers. But yes, we are talking about final season of Insecure. And given the nature of it, it is going to be very relaxed and we are going to, you know, dabble into previous seasons as well. But Oti, can you believe season four left us at the point of Issa being told by Lawrence that he just got told by Condola that she's having a baby and she's gonna keep it. That's how much has happened in season five. Because a lot of growth has happened,

13:03KT: and I guess we'll talk about the time jumps and how you felt about it in the finale. But, you know, I I wanna talk we've talked generally about the show and how much we've loved it and how much it meant to us. But I definitely wanna go into characters, and naturally, they're going to overlap. You know, I love how Prentice Penny as well as Issa

13:25KT: and also Yvonne talk about how the show was always a a love letter to Molly and Issa and to their friendship. And we see that, and the show ends with the two of them. And that is a very beautiful moment because their friendship is not without qualm. Or as Delroy Lindo would say, in The Harder They Fall, quarrel. So let's talk about Issa. And please, the residential man on the podcast, refrain from talking about Lawrence. Let's just focus on Issa. You know, given the title of the show,

14:04KT: it would be a surprise to yourself if you didn't realize this would be driven by a lot of the decisions and the haphazard, you know, mistakes that Issa makes throughout her life. Mhmm. That a lot of the growth that we see is is based on the learnings, if you will, that she picked up sometimes by force. But I I really,

14:32KT: really, really loved Issa's journey. I always would love it, but there were times that she did piss me off and I did wanna hold it to account. So let's just be fair about that. Okay. But generally, overall, you know, we see a shift and, you know, friends and lovers, I think we all kind of get to that point, you know, even in a professional sense, wherever we are working, whatever capacity we're working in, no matter how long we were working in there. Remember there was a time where Issa was helping with the interviews

15:02KT: and people weren't realizing that she was at that job for like five years. Yeah. Especially for the amount of level of complacency that she had because there needs to be some sort of natural progression. Not necessarily in ways of promotion, but just in the way that you navigate the space that you're professionally. And it kinda felt like Issa was fine with just living the way that she felt like she was supposed to be living.

15:28KT: I don't think it was even necessarily the fear of trying something new because I don't think she even entertained that. I think she's like, I've got my bestie Molly, I've got Lawrence on the couch eating cereal forgetting about my birthday, but fine, we're over it apparently.

15:44KT: And she was just fine to do life the way life was being done to her. Right? And we see a shift in that. We see absolute shift in that where she quits without having any sort of jobs lined up. I don't know how it works in South LA in regards to rents, but that would fucking freak me out. That that is a very scary

16:04KT: decision to make. But I guess it also removes the safety net. You need to sink or swim. Right?

16:04Oti: Yeah. The best way to start of land swimming.

16:04KT: Are we gonna get another Oti sad story?

16:04Oti: No. It's alright. I'll spare you this time.

16:04KT: We'll leave your sad childhood stories for Succession, hey?

16:04Oti: Yeah.

16:04KT: But I really

16:24KT: loved, you know, the wholly realized journey that we had with Issa and we definitely see a dynamic shift. And we talked about this in season four where Molly was kind of being a bit more unsure of herself and Issa was kind of, you know, being more comfortable in her own skin and her abilities and what she brought to the table. Yeah. Because we start to see this rift happen in season four where Issa is spending more time with Condola and Molly feels sort of left out. And this causes a turbulence in their relationship where the uncertain where they stand with each other. And

17:01Oti: certain things get said harshly, but I think they needed to be said. Yeah. Otherwise, that friendship would never have grown to fruition as the way it did at the final season. Mhmm. Because we get to see them appreciate, you know, yes, you said this in anger, but I've received it. You know? Molly says in season five,

17:21Oti: you know, in as much as I was a wreck with boyfriends, that's something she would never even have identified or even self reflect to a point where she was enabled to bloody see a relationship with Taurean. Taurean.

17:21KT: Well, that that's exactly it. And then I'm pretty sure it was in season one

17:39KT: when Molly was completely laughing it off and she was having a little giggle gaggle tee hee about therapy in general. And she was very dubious to it. Right? And we definitely see that growth and, you know, I share this sentiment a lot on the podcast. I think most recently, even though it is familial, most recently, I shared it on Riders of Justice where we have Mads Mikkelsen's character as a father. He loved his daughter so much,

18:08KT: but he could only really love within the capacity that he can love himself. And I think that's what we were experiencing with Molly. She didn't want to not root for Issa. She didn't want to feel jealous to the point that she couldn't support Issa, but she was going for her own things. There was nothing wrong with Asian bae. Right? We talked about this in Single All the Way most recently. Like, there was nothing wrong with Asian bae, but he you know, people say right place, wrong time,

18:37KT: wrong place, wrong person, all that sort of thing. It wasn't the time for Molly to have, you know, tilling of the soil and the nurturing and for her to go on her journey. She was always capable of it, I suppose, because, you know, she was well off, she dressed well. From from all, you know, points and surfaces,

18:58KT: she had everything going on for herself. Yeah. But she wasn't ready to receive whatever lesson she was supposed to learn. Yeah. And that definitely interfered with her friendship with Issa. And I think the same could also be applied to Issa because Issa is less than perfect. She's made mistakes along the way. She's flaky ass, you know?

19:19Oti: She doesn't make the decision and she can't stick with it and she back flips a lot. Yep. But Molly calls that out. And I think when it came to a decision where fast forward in season five and Molly's like, what do you think about Lawrence? You know, what what would you have said to Lawrence?

19:34Oti: And Issa's like, nah, you know, he said that I completely go, you know, I go back on stuff and I can't don't have a backbone or whatnot. And Will is like, sometimes you just overthink. Just go with whatever you feel. Yeah. And sometimes it's the easiest part. Mhmm.

19:34KT: But wow. While we're here, while we're talking about Issa,

19:53KT: I don't know how much more we're going to say about Nathan in isolation of Issa. So we might as well address Nathan now from you know, we we've we've given the show accolades, and I'll continue to give this show accolades for the way that they portrayed, you know, someone having bipolar. Right? It's it's frustrating to see Nathan navigate the way that he navigates, But it also brings like a human sort of element. He's not just being shitty. Yeah. But also at the same time, there were moments

20:29KT: where you could see that he wasn't actively trying to work on it either. And I think it's it's it's hard to delineate the two, but I don't it it wasn't fair for Issa to experience

20:42KT: at the drop of a coin, him saying this doesn't feel like home. I'm going to fuck off again. Yeah. Without any regard to Issa or the relationship that I Yeah. And it's like, okay, because then what what what does that mean? Every time you have a shit day, you're going to threaten to up and leave and never come back? Yeah. That was weird. And you could you could tell that it affected Issa. Even if he came back and said that he loved her, I think on the back of Issa's

21:09KT: mind, it's still there. Yeah. Well, what I will say is, you know, relationships aren't fucking easy. Right? And even if it's the same relationship, you can go through many phases and many instances of that one relationship. So it is one relationship, but you go through some fucking things. Right? So what I will say on this, it's not necessarily a bad thing. However, it was made very clear that Issa and Lawrence were going to end up together. So unfucking fortunately,

21:40KT: they had to write Nathan out of this love triangle because they could have made it work. They definitely could have made it work. Let's also bring back the fact that, you know, she was with Nathan at the time that she felt motivated when she was trying to gather all the forms to go and get all of the permits that she needed, which by the way, super Crenshaw, I don't know how much we're gonna talk about Crenshaw specifically.

22:03KT: But, you know, even when he tries to, you know, do this fuck boy apology or whatever the fuck he was doing, and he's like, oh, who knew there were so many permits? It's like, yeah, you didn't appreciate Issa's value, but we'll come to that. I just I didn't care for it. Not to say that you can't remix exes even though that seems very messy to me. But who am I but a TV podcaster?

22:27Oti: Well, that's the thing. Nathan is dealing with a lot. He does not need drama. Issa Kane was saying the same shit about Lawrence.

22:27KT: So it is from Exactly. Yeah. But it was a decision. Be fair. You always had it in your heart, and you mentioned that every episode, especially in the dinner date episode with Issa and Lawrence, which is, I would say, one of the best episodes in television in general. Period. Yep. Yes. On period. See you next month.

22:58KT: Is you always said that you wanted them to end up together. Even when I think there was a there was a space of time where we didn't see Lawrence at all. Right? And I think it was around Coachella when they were at that convenience store. That's where we fucking saw Lawrence again. Yeah. Right? But even when he wasn't on the screen and he wasn't physically in Insecure,

23:19KT: you always were rooting for Issa and Lawrence to get back together. True or not?

23:19Oti: True. Because sometimes you need to be a part to grow closer together. And I think this is a perfect example. Issa and Lawrence at the start of this weren't perfect. Lawrence certainly wasn't perfect. And we cannot sort of have excuses or whatever for him. Fine. But you could tell the chemistry

23:41Oti: was there. It was so great. And the fact that Lawrence wasn't even meant to be a regular. Yeah. Interesting. Right? And and he he sort of became so pivotal in the whole show.

23:41KT: Well, I'm sure Jay Ellis is a very charismatic man, but I will never know that because I always see him as Lawrence.

23:41Oti: I think at the back of the line, I always just saw it was always meant to be Lawrence and Issa. And to even chip in it, it was more like Ross and Rachel. They could have multiple

24:11Oti: partners wherever the world they're in. But at the end of the day, when when the chips are down, it will always come back together.

24:11KT: I'm disappointed you didn't mention Maxine and Kyle.

24:11Oti: No. They fucked up with our relationship too much for me to even reference them.

24:30KT: I thought you provided a particular spice.

24:33Oti: I was, but I think I went for the low hanging fruit for our audience.

24:39KT: No. Don't blame the audience. Don't blame the audience. This is all on you, president of the Lawrence Hive. But that's that that's exactly it. I don't know. I just like, I came from the point of view, of course, Nathan wasn't perfect. No one fucking is.

24:56KT: They could have made it work, and it kinda felt like they just shoo shooed him away. And Kendrick Sampson is just a beautiful, wonderful, amazing person Yeah. In general. Going through. Yeah. That's why he got a, like, an amazing speech during the documentary, not Jay Ellis, but anyway.

24:56Oti: I agree with you. Kendrick is amazing as an actor and as a person. And in his character,

25:17Oti: there were issues where he wasn't ready to be in a relationship with someone like Issa.

25:17KT: Oh, neither was Lawrence, but.

25:17Oti: And you could see how it affected him, especially with the competition with Lawrence.

25:28KT: He was not even ready to be in LA. Okay. Can we contrast? Can we contrast right now and let's transition into Molly? Because, yes, you can say no one should have to put up with that shit, but Taurean really held it like a g. But that was all in the past shit. Dro came Dro came in when shit had already settled. It wasn't in the heat of things. Okay. But can we talk about how Lawrence is messy? Because there was no need for him to confront her, like, out of the bushes. Yeah.

25:59Oti: That was fucked up. But I think at the end of the day, Lawrence had to make a stand. And when he was

25:59KT: And he had a whole woman, whether it was a relationship or not on his birthday,

26:09KT: it's just nah.

26:09Oti: How how how long should he wait for Issa to respond?

26:09KT: So where you deposit your seed is not where you lay your heart. Is that what you're saying?

26:09Oti: Exactly.

26:19Oti: Spread your seed all over the world. I think the mom was practicing already. Spread your seed, but at the end of the day, your heart is at home. You know? Go on missions. Spread your seed. Wow. That's fine. By the end of the day, you still have to get on that plane, go back home to your family, and that's where your heart is.

26:19KT: Until there's like a viral TikTok video about babies with your face?

26:19Oti: Well, until you see they have an ad and they see white babies all over.

26:52KT: Oh, my my my my my.

26:52Oti: The facts of life, mate.

26:52KT: Is it really?

26:52Oti: It is.

26:52KT: Is that how it goes?

26:52Oti: It is.

26:52KT: Good on you, mate. On your bike. But, yeah, I just I I saw it coming that Issa and Lawrence were going to end up together, especially because they shoo shooed the Nathan Issa storyline

27:12KT: very quickly in the finale. Like, it was made very clear that Issa and Lawrence will go and end up together. And I kind of just had to leave that to the side and just let it be so I could enjoy.

27:24Oti: For a second, thought that they're gonna make Issa just be single when Lawrence didn't show up for her birthday. I thought that was the perfect opportunity for Lawrence to pop his head in because it's been an unfair amount of time before, you know, after the whole incident. And he didn't show up. I was like, far out. Are they gonna make just end up alone?

27:44KT: No. I didn't think I didn't think Issa was at a point where she would have chosen to be alone. And can we also talk about the fact that Lawrence can't not be in a fucking relationship? It can't be in a relationship that's not with Issa. You need to stop that.

27:44Oti: I'm spitting facts, mate.

27:44KT: You're spitting something. Is it is hot and it is un welcome. Let's talk about something that is very welcome, Molly. Molly got a lot of flack throughout the series for anyone that is well versed with Black Twitter, especially

28:19KT: while the cast are live tweeting every Sunday when Insecure comes out. Yvonne Orji got a lot of flack for playing Molly. And just generally, I didn't care for Molly either and you'll hear it in the podcast episodes. Unless it's Ayesha Tyler, who's my best friend, I am able to separate, you know, acting from the actor.

28:43Oti: I think this is where we contrast it because I was more in the Molly camp in this because I felt that she was more aggrieved in terms of the friendship because it was always her offering advice, offering friendship, offering her shoulder to Issa. I just felt that she was due of a moment where she can lose her shit.

28:43KT: No. Let's hang on a second because we talked about this and I very articulated,

29:08KT: explained to you why Molly was the nurturer. Uh-huh. People don't volunteer for charities solely for the benefit of the people they're volunteering for. Let's make that very clear. Mhmm. There's gratification. There's absolutely a sense of wankery and jerking yourself off. I'm so amazing because apparently, I'm I I don't understand that there are other neighborhoods where I live. I have to go fucking overseas and volunteer and take pictures with the local children to show how fucking great I am. Don't talk to me about this selflessness in volunteering.

29:48KT: Right? And I'll apply this in Molly. She helped a lot. She gave a lot in regards to, you know, her family as well as her friendships, but she also got something out of it too. Mhmm. Right? It's the same reason friends and lovers,

30:02KT: you know, if you're still in the meta book verse, you keep those people that you went to with high school in to make you feel feel better. Right? If people are doing not as great in your life, it makes you feel better. It does get a bit morose when it's your best friend that's not doing great, and it makes you feel better. But again, that was was work that Molly needed to work on.

30:02Oti: I agree to an extent. I agree to an extent that Molly needed that out of the friendship and it wasn't out of the goodness of her heart.

30:34Oti: But at the same time, I feel like she had to bury a lot just because she felt that Issa couldn't handle or she she had something going on, you know? It was one thing after another. It was either Daniel or whoever who who I can't even remember the string of people that's been there.

30:34KT: Okay. You didn't you didn't mention a string when you were talking about Lawrence.

30:34Oti: It's not even about that. It's it's more she just felt like she had this role in the friendship and maybe

31:02Oti: both parties needed to fucking reconcile on that. And I think it only had to come out in one way and that was through the argument of the block party.

31:11KT: Yeah. No. That again, what is up with people in Issa's proximity that feel the need to be so fucking messy very publicly at the wrong fucking time? Issa's energy, man. You better stop it. Those tears were saying something different during the documentary. But like, yeah, cool. But then she was also being really weird because she didn't want, you know, Issa to contact her man. I don't I don't necessarily agree with that, especially because

31:43KT: Issa knew him before they were even a couple. Like, that was a whole kettle of mess. But anyway, again, Molly wasn't ready to do the work on herself even though unlike other people, she had the resources to be able to do the work, you know, mentally, emotionally, inside, she wasn't ready to do that fucking work. Right? So that kind of permeated in the sense that she blew up in a very public way, which probably definitely

32:12KT: wasn't the best to do because you're making it all about you. You didn't help with the block party. But, anyway, we're happy for Molly and her love and success. So we're going to stay there, Oti.

32:23KT: How did you feel about well, I didn't even realize we were going to have Molly ending up with someone at the end of this show. It would have been it would have been really cruel if she did it. Cruel because she's gone through a lot and it's the end of the show. So I agree. But also life is a lifelong journey. So in real life, like it's fine if you are

32:45Oti: She was always insecure about that. She never really felt that she was good enough to have that sort of stable relationship. And she had to reconcile that. But I think letting her not end up with someone would have just been A kick in the balls. Yeah. Yeah.

32:45KT: And and love and Splooshies to Natasha Rothwell,

33:03KT: who, as you all know, plays Kelli. When they were doing the live tweeting of the finale, she was just saying that, you know, Molly is literally the the campaign ad for therapy and how it works. Yes. Because it's like, it's literally one step from where you are, but if you're not ready and you don't do the work, you're always going to go in circles. Right? Unfortunately,

33:30KT: those circles involve Dro. And why I do I was not expecting Dro to show up. He was busy in Games People Play. Yeah. Sarunas Jackson. Don't worry about me, friends and lovers. Don't pop quiz me, but I I I do quite well in our spheres. But I I'm glad that she did end up with someone, but also someone with a very loving OT, but also a relation doesn't make you whole or I don't believe should make you whole. Right? So I love that Molly was on her healing path.

34:00KT: And I guess every rom com including Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks will tell you that when you're not looking for love, that's where you'll find it. And hopefully, you're not looking for it because you're doing the work on yourself. Yeah. But if you're in a rom com, it's probably more toxic ways.

34:16Oti: You know, the I think the most defining part of season five where I felt that Molly had really changed Mhmm. Was when she didn't get to be partner and that did not even affect her one bit. I was like Yeah. Mate, you you you've you've grown.

34:16KT: Come through, Molly,

34:35KT: with your growth. Yeah.

34:37Oti: That's all she's been chasing since season one episode one.

34:41KT: But there's also nothing wrong with that. There's nothing. Let's also point that out. There's nothing wrong with that either.

34:47Oti: We know Yvonne Orji as a person is quite an advocate of, you know, right now is, it's okay to fucking rest. It's okay to fucking take a breath. Relax. Be easy. You know? And and to see aspects of that in Molly where she'd fought for that shit all her time and thinking that that's the most important thing in life. Think

34:47KT: When it isn't. But I think,

35:08KT: you know, whether through parents, whether through schooling, whether through society, we're led to believe that our career becomes our personality and there's nothing wrong with that. Clocking in inhumane hours

35:23KT: is exactly what you should be doing.

35:23Oti: Yeah. Yeah. She was she was very a Nigerian sort of daughter in this typical.

35:29KT: I I didn't like, this was the most unexpected happiness that I had for a character in a long time. In an absolute long time. If I can if I can, you know, very privileged, very white, bring a Succession reference into here, which we will be covering very soon, friends and lovers, this was her Connor Roy moment. Like, a a character that you've seen fumbling for a long time get that jubilant sort of moment that you didn't even realize what was happening, but they absolutely deserved and it edifies everyone in the room. I'm

36:06KT: so happy for Molly. I like that they explored, you know, just general themes of friendship and how life shit can get in the way. And, you know, they interestingly enough, they focus more on Molly's family as opposed to Issa's. Right? Like, didn't meet Amal until, like, season two. And we she only went to her mom, I think, in season four. Yeah. I think that's the first time we physically saw her mom, which is absolutely

36:37KT: interesting how Molly was the one that had more of a focus on family in the show. Yeah. Because it played a big part of who she is as a character.

36:45Oti: Very true. Very true. Like how could my dad do that? My parents had a perfect marriage, that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. It it it defined who she is and who she strived to be as a person. Yeah. You know, however flawed she thought, you know, my perfect family, my perfect dad and mom Yeah. Was never really that. And you could get to see that her parents were flawed just because they're fucking human. Also No one is perfect. She also

37:11Oti: knocked down Sterling K. Brown. Like, she really it was really all Molly's fault. There were so many men throwing her away and

37:11KT: To be fair though, Sterling K. Brown would have come with This Is Us energy and everyone would be crying all the time. We don't need that for Molly. Or the Thurgood Marshall energy.

37:11Oti: Yeah. We don't need that. Man, that guy needs to play some good characters, some happy characters.

37:34KT: He does. He definitely does. But, yeah, Molly became the the shining beacon of this series, and I love it. I love it. Love it. Love it so much. Did you see her okay. So we we talked about the fact that we didn't realize that she would end up with someone. Do you think it was a bit cheap that she ended up with Taurean because they never had chemistry? Or do you think they did well to stitch together the fact that they were never on any sort of personal terms to getting really intimate

38:06KT: with their family, you know, with Taurean's brother and then with her mother? Like, do you think it was done in a way that felt natural even though it happened quite suddenly? Or do you think it was like a cop out? She needs someone. Taurean's been around for a while. Let's just put them together. No. There was always something.

38:24Oti: Did you ever feel a connection between her and Taurean throughout the whole sort of times they met in meetings and they were sniping at each other? I always felt like, mate, what is this? Really? It's one thing being competitors in the office, that shit just came out salacious and shit.

38:41KT: Don't know. Friends and lovers, let us find out Oti has a Mr. And Mrs. Smith fan fiction about Molly and Taurean.

38:53Oti: That shit was Cell. No. I liked it. I liked the fact that it was Taurean. I think there was no one else that would be perfect for Molly.

39:05KT: And when she said she didn't really feel like coming out and he sent her wine and wings, Yes, please. Send some more. Thank you. Yeah. For sure. But that's some, like, that's some grown person shit. I'm not for toxic masculinity. So I'm not gonna say grown man shit. But, you know, when someone is comfortable in and of themselves and they like the and they are ready to move into that next phase, nothing really fucking matters, man. In regards to your past, like, unless it's going to like like you said with Lawrence

39:41KT: reemerging whenever Nathan's around. Talking about barbecue of all things, but anyway, can really sever that. And I guess Taurean was probably the most secure person in this show. Yeah. Yeah. He knew who he was. He was like the secure character of seasons past.

40:01Oti: Yeah. He did have a bit of Jidenna vibes though. Didn't he? You think so? Yeah. Because I think Jidenna's character was quite like that. He was so sure of himself. He knew what he wanted and scared Molly. Okay. Okay. No. No. I see that. I see that. Mhmm. You tend to remember all the men of the women characters, but not all the women of the men characters. The mind wanders, Hurti.

40:24KT: Wonders not simply. Oh, but I love Taurean. And when they were eating the edibles and then they, like, found where all the hors d'oeuvres were, was a very cute, very beautiful moment. And then obviously Molly being so inebriated was just talking about how she used to fuck around with Dro, but it's okay because we grew up together. And Taurean's like, that ain't got nothing to do with me. Exactly.

40:51Oti: Happening to Molly makes it elevates that scene so much more than if it happened to Issa or someone else. Can we talk about it?

41:00KT: Oh, Molly experience. It was done in a way that was so considered with so much care and so much love for this show and especially for Molly's character. I am edified in the love and the fixed pussy of Molly.

41:19Oti: Yeah. No broken pussy for her.

41:22KT: I love how Molly made a joke about that in one of the final scenes. And he's just like, oh, that's funny. We can you can joke about that

41:32Oti: She was livid.

41:34KT: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, but exactly. If you're not ready to receive the message, probably you don't wanna hear it in the clubs, but No.

41:43Oti: Or even you got your kids singing it. Yeah.

41:48KT: And let's not forget the whole Daniel arc. But yeah, I just I was so happy for Molly. And then when they were showing like a wedding scene, I was like, don't let that fucking be Issa. I don't wanna see this. I don't wanna see this. But it was a Molly wedding. And I think the show ended in the most beautiful of ways and I love it.

42:11Oti: Everyone got a happy ending and I'm in for that.

42:11KT: Let's talk about Tiffany. So

42:17KT: within this final season, we find out that Tiffany and Derek are going to be moving and they, you know, you come to find friends and lovers when you're friends of people, how much of it is tested when you move locations?

42:36Oti: Yeah.

42:37KT: And, you know, there was a lot of trepidation that the girls had because she really struggled, you know, and without being a mother, you know, they did touch on postpartum depression and just depression in general with Tiffany's character. So, you know, there was so much love and so much worry, wanting to be there for her and wanting to root for her. And we see her as a friends,

43:03Oti: her role as a friend also grows. She says it as it is.

43:07Oti: And even when she was going through or she they went to visit her and they felt something that wasn't right, Tiffany came out and said, I'm unhappy. I hated him. I hate it. You know, that's nothing that's something Tiffany wouldn't have said in season one or two. She'll keep it to herself. Yeah. Even up to season four, she wouldn't have said that shit at all. Yeah. And I think that growth is is quite important to see in the characters that we've got to see and love. Mhmm. And to just to see that you can confide in your friends and your friends will be there and you're not alone despite the fact that you live in, was it Denver? Yeah, I think so. It's just, what's not to love about it? Yeah.

43:43KT: I like how very nonchalantly she talked about how, you know, there was a time where Derek was staying at a hotel. Like there were a lot of things like you said that, you know, even if her girlfriends were receptive to it, she wasn't ready to share that. Yeah. And that's a whole another conversation because even if you have a loving support network, if you're not ready to share it or if you don't wanna share it or if you're so used to holding it in, especially because Tiffany had that sort of bougie,

44:14KT: I'll do it by myself, feelings are ugly, like they're not cute. I'm just going to keep it all to myself. And it was a very beautiful sort of turn of events. And then you also see the dynamic between Kelli and Tiffany because Kelli was so offended. Like, yeah, of course you didn't tell Issa or Molly, but like why Yeah. Didn't

44:35Oti: You grouped me with them?

44:38KT: Which yeah. Yeah. You would anyone would be offended to be grouped with like early Issa and early Molly.

44:44Oti: Yeah. But you could they were really close. They're the closest. And she she it really did hurt her, you know?

44:50Oti: And we see her struggle with that. We saw her struggle with that in season four. Yeah. Even when she wasn't part of the baby shower plan, you know, she felt a way about it because if not her, fucking who? But it's also like, what the fuck did I do? Like, at least give me a reason to fuck it up. Like, you didn't even like give me a chance. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm not just your fun friend. Like, I'll hold you down, man.

45:13KT: Thank you, LL Cool J, Oti. Hey, that's a callback to your erotica. Halloween, go and listen to our episode, friends and lovers.

45:25Oti: Yeah. She's she's really solid in this. And I think our growth is is quite impressive and important. I also goes to talk about, you know, depression and you can confide in the people that are closest to you and you can both grow and heal together and you're not alone. And she because I always forgot why Condola was in proximity, but it was because Tiff worked with her. Yeah. Because it's like, why does she keep buzzing around? Why are you here?

45:51KT: Let's talk about Kelli, arguably hands down the best fucking character on this show. One with the best lines of this show. And as we found in the documentary, you know, they mentioned Natasha Rothwell was just reading Kelli's character and they couldn't find they wouldn't even think to find anyone that would be able to deliver it better than her. And a lot of the lines were ad libbed.

46:18Oti: Yeah.

46:20KT: Fucking love. She's brilliant. She's brilliant. She's great. We can't wait to see all of her future projects coming up. But Kelli, as a character, it's it's it's not deep. You know, our podcast is a lot of fun. We are very nasty, but it kind of bothers me when, like, the the base reaction to our podcast is, they're funny. Like, we are funny, but I do feel like we bring a lot of depth as well to whatever we're discussing. Right?

46:49KT: You may think you'll be hard to press to listen to a podcast talking about Candyman and not mention gentrification, but you'll be surprised friends and lovers. But in any case, I love that there's a presence of Kelli's character in the show for that loud friend, for that funny friend, for that friend that is okay to get fingered at a diner. Right? Like, there is so much dimension to Kelli. And I don't necessarily think that her girlfriends thought she only offered one dimension, but I think sometimes they just forget. Right? And she's always so accommodating

47:29KT: as well. Lots of funny moments including when she was looking at Issa's finances. Like, she just she just helped without question, without making them jump through hoops. She just helped effortlessly. Right? She was always there for her girls. She was always down for her girls. And it was funny, but then it started to become sad where they went back to the reunion, the first episode of season five, where she was declared dead, which was funny. But then,

48:04KT: Issa's quote, which is fine in a normal context, but her just talking about how funny she was. But it's like, if this was her death, like, I think, you know, especially when it comes to, like, birthdays and big milestones, as we get older, we start to, like, reflect on our mortality and potentially the impact or the lack of impact that we've had to those around us. And Kelli really, you know, brings it it to the forefront in that episode,

48:32KT: which is like, guys, it's I'm not always the joke, you know? Yeah. I am a person. And I don't think that's to say that her girlfriends thought she only offered that. But I think in in being busy in your own lives, it is easy to just be like, Kelli. Yeah. She's funny. Right?

48:48Oti: Yeah. A 100%. And I think one of the things that we get to see with Kelli in season five is not only her realization that she wants to do more, she becomes

49:01KT: she walks with Molly now. It's it's the giving back of it.

49:05Oti: Yeah. Yeah. It's her realizing that she can do more. Yeah. She can be more rather than just the, hey, the funny friend, you know. And and I think the fact that we've had Kelli

49:17Oti: throughout the whole seasons. Yeah. Yes. She had one of the best lines, ugly lines or not. She's just a true friend. And I think that shown through a lot more than even her jokes did because at the end of the day, she was always there for Tiffany and Molly. You know, even when Molly was going through trying to set up the will for the dad and mom, you know, it's Kelli that was there the whole day. Yeah. And she she was there when they didn't even decide. They didn't even know they wanted to do that in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. But Kelli is

49:49Oti: really good people boss and she has that energy. She just disarms people. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And when you're in a presence, it's just amazing, man.

49:59KT: She was the fucking light of the show. She was the light of the White Lotus, she was the best thing about White Lotus.

50:05Oti: She was, And she

50:07KT: you know, it's always nice to see yourself even in like miniscule of ways, Just, you know, with Kelli, a few drinks in, talking about life's.

50:18KT: I

50:20KT: definitely I may not be on the tabletops, but I'll definitely be talking about existential shit as the drinks keep pouring. But I love love love Kelli. Well, we find soulmates in wherever we find them. Right, Oti?

50:35Oti: Mhmm.

50:37KT: Koya, shout outs to Koya. She was very loyal. She was always ready to scrap in the name of Issa. And I think a lot of us can relate to that coming to the close of Insecure. Shout outs to Sajada who plays a minor ish role in Insecure, but she was very prominent in Awkward Black Girl. Also shout outs to the ever eternal Thug Yoda. We also shouted out Sarunas Jackson. I don't even know why I mentioned him again, but I guess that's the power

51:09KT: that he holds. There's two characters I wanna talk about before we finish off Oti. I wanna talk about Condola and I wanna talk about Crenshawn. Who do we wanna talk about first? Let's start with canola oil. Condoleezza oil? Okay. Condola, Condola, Condola. I think it was very cute the way she was introduced into the show. It felt a bit more menacing the way that she was twisted into the show, but it was done in a way that works.

51:39KT: You know, we we whenever it's relevant, we talk about our reproductive rights and, you know, if Condola chose to keep the kid. I I I do like the way she outlaid that, you know, yes, this is your kin, but you can be as involved as you want to. But once you're in, you're in. And I I really love that strength in Condola. She's like, I'm gonna do it without you. If you wanna be in it, you gotta be about it. Right? Yeah.

52:07Oti: Agree. I think also us getting to see Keke Palmer as a sister Yes. Who hates Lawrence, even though in real life, we know she is part of the Lawrence hive. Yeah. Yeah. But wow, I think Condola in this, we get to see her grow as well. Yeah. And sort of accept that, you know, this is what I wanna do with my life. Yep. And even the interactions with Lawrence are a bit different, you know, it's more, well, Lawrence was being a dick. Yeah. She would have easily just

52:40Oti: thrown out the prom, at the end of the day, that doesn't benefit anyone. Uh-huh. But she handled out quite well. I thought, wow. Look at me giving props to Condola. Yeah.

52:55KT: If you can say her name right, then then we'll we'll market your maturity badge, Oti. Yeah. But, yeah, Condola definitely provided texture in this show. There was definitely a sense of, like, messiness, but I also like the maturity that because we we we did get to a point where Issa was a bit more, you know, understanding.

53:17Oti: Were you surprised that they didn't even try to get on with Lawrence again? Or she didn't try to get on with Lawrence at all?

53:17KT: No. Because even at that point, like Lawrence was a bit flaky anyway. So I don't think-

53:17Oti: They shared a moment. They shared quite an intimate moment when Lawrence had flown back and I thought he'd offers to fix the shelf, I think. And I thought that was quite a cute cozy moment, but maybe it was just more, you have to do this.

53:17KT: No, but I think that's the world and that's media

53:47KT: informing you that in this case, if a man does something nice for a woman, then they're obliged to each other, which they're not. Especially if they're co parenting.

53:57Oti: I have to return that IKEA shop then. Well, you can return it all, mate.

54:04KT: I don't know why you keep hanging around here.

54:07Oti: I'm not putting that up if I ain't getting anything, mate.

54:11KT: How many more years you're stay comfortable in that batch? Let's move on. Maybe not end on, but let's move on and talk about Crenshawn. I more particularly wanna talk about the way that he interacted with Issa. And I feel like it's more of a discussion point as opposed to the actual character. Know,

54:37KT: Issa Issa's character in Insecure specifically was always about nurturing black talent. Right? And she had a lot she she had an existing skill set at working at We Got Y'all, but she also built on that as well as, you know, cultivating her networks. It wasn't easy, but she also recognized the value that artists brought Yeah. As well. Right? It wasn't aside from rapping in the mirror, it wasn't a skill set that she brought, but she understood the value of it. And she understood that she was the conduit between, you know, black excellence and artistry

55:13KT: and the corporate very white sort of funding world.

55:17Oti: Yeah. Yeah. And and I think one of the things that even up until the end, I know they've already settled the doubt with Crenshaw. I just didn't take to him at all. Yeah. His whole vibe, his whole thing about looking down on Issa, even spreading fucking rumors about how she's hard and she's not for the people. It was fucking ridiculous.

55:40Oti: I hated that. And him crawling back with a non apology. It was a non apology. It was a fuck boy non apology. I'm like, mate. And then we we get to this episode where Issa has to decide who to go with. Yeah. And we take into a bit of back and forth. I didn't really appreciate that. But in essence, we saw what Issa wanted and she always wanted to be in the community and to help people within the community rather than just be successful and

56:07Oti: feel withdrawn from it. Yeah. So it was always pointing towards her going with Crenshaw, but I saw that and knew that. I just felt he didn't fucking deserve Issa. But I guess, un fucking fortunately, with those sorts of industries, you can't burn bridges. Right? Then again, I'm just petty as fuck. I'd be like, piss off. Go fill up your papers yourself.

56:31KT: No, I like, I agree with you, but I think I appreciated the introduction of Crenshawn because at least for anyone that was frustrated with Issa, there were definitely absolutely moments and, you know, especially with Lawrence and Molly confronting her in very public ways. We see this with Crenshaw as well. And maybe there was some sort of sense of catharsis because in the years that, you know, Issa Rae has, you know, cultivated and worked in and even breaking into, like, the music industry and Rap Sh!t is coming up soon.

57:07KT: She also has a music label as well. And she talks about how she can't even begin to imagine how musicians try to navigate. Like, she thought Hollywood was bad, but, like, the music industry is a whole another kettle of fish. Right? So maybe there was some sense of catharsis. And also, you know, like, even in The Harder They Fall, like, I loved seeing, yes, we're we're loving and praising black people, but there's different types and people are out for their own gain. And sometimes they they think their shit don't sting just like Crenshaw. Right?

57:40KT: And even though he did have the talent, that doesn't warrant you being a dickhead and unfortunately burning a bridge, but then Issa had to repair it, you know, for the betterment of the community.

57:45Oti: Yeah. I think that's one of the things that I'll just keep it under my rug. I didn't really appreciate it. He could have fucked off Yeah. Just because I'm petty.

57:45KT: What else have you got under your rug, sir?

57:45Oti: A lot. I think a lot of Halloween memorabilia under there.

58:04KT: All of the panties I've been trying to send to Mads Mikkelsen? Yeah.

58:10Oti: Well,

58:12KT: I would love to end on my used or unused unmentionables, but perhaps we can end on something else, Oti. Is there anything else you would like to say in regards to the fifth and final and just Insecure in general? Because we're definitely going to keep the Issa love train going. It's definitely one of the best shows to date.

58:35Oti: What? What? It's in my top five shows of all time. Okay. Yeah. And there's no talks there at all. I just love it. I think it'll be a staple. It'll be a classic. It is a classic. And I can't wait for black young kids to watch this and to see different sort of people portrayed on the screen. That's not tied to stupidities, to typical nonsense. And I'm all for that.

59:05Oti: I love it. I really do. It's just too good, too good not to recommend over and over to anyone that sees me in future. I'll be talking about Insecure in our conversation. I'll be dropping it in just because.

59:18KT: Nice. I love that. I also love that, you know, we see a different portrayal of the LA that we've previously seen in media, TV, as well as films. I love what this show was. I also loved and you could always count on Issa just making things awkward as fuck. Like, you think after five seasons, she's a fully evolved final form being, but she'll always find a way to make things really awkward. I I you know, friends and lovers, we've done three episodes now of Insecure.

59:56KT: And wherever I can, I mention how much I love Issa Rae, how much I you know, how much it meant to me at the time that I discovered, you know, Awkward Black Girl? Like, it's it's just it's more than what words could ever explain, perhaps to someone more articulate. But at least for me now, in this moment, I love it. I will eventually be at peace, but I am still mourning the loss of a show that meant so much to me and characters that I have for the most part held to my bosom.

60:32KT: And yeah, I absolutely loved it. Oh, Monday nights will never be the same again. Yeah. Because we live in the future. Otherwise, it would be a Sunday evening. Thank you friends and lovers for joining us. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Friends, Oti.

60:48Oti: It'll be a callback. Living Single, I think it's just one of the things that I can draw parallels to in terms of the characters. It's really good. You should watch it as a staple and then rewatch Insecure again. Nice.

61:06KT: Carrying on the theme of having black women in front of and behind the screens and also writing shows of quality, humanizing the black woman experience in ways that we have never experienced before, P-Valley. Pussy Valley. If you would like to find what else Oti has kept in my rug of Pussy Valley on Twitter and Instagram, we're foryourrefpod.

61:34Oti: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

61:38KT: We're also on Kourtie offering you the Hive Peel podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys in the next episode.

61:49Oti: See you. Bye.