Secret Society – Tina: Warrior Princess

Full transcript of Secret Society – Tina: Warrior Princess.

0:00KT: Hey, guys. It's another week in the For Your Reference household. We are starting off with a trigger warning. Unfortunately, the trigger warning is integral to the plot, but we wouldn't want people to go into it without having any periphery. So this is a trigger warning, especially for our trans friends and lovers. Other announcements, we recently guested on our pod pals, the Book of Lies podcast. Take the promo away.

0:00Ad: Hey. This is Book of Lies podcast where we talk about liars, cheats, and thieves.

0:38Ad: Yeah. We do. We release a new episode every Tuesday on all major podcast players. We talk about, like she said, liars, cheats, thieves. Scammers, fraudsters, and dirty rotten scoundrels. Oh, yeah. We keep it real with you. We like to have a lot of fun. There's curse words involved, so no kids are allowed. But check us out. We would love you to join us. On your favorite podcatcher. Bye. Bye.

1:34KT: Hey, girl. It's the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

1:34Oti: And Oti.

1:34KT: Prepare the jet on someone else's dime and link up with your bestie as we twist into Miasha Coleman's Secret Society.

1:47Oti: Mhmm.

1:48KT: Woo hoo hoo, Oti. Mhmm. What a wild ride.

1:48Oti: It was. It was.

1:48KT: Yes. And you would have heard the trigger warning at the start of this episode. It is integral to the plot of the film, but we do love and accolade you just as much. But, you know, to make it up to us, you'll have to go and watch the film because it deserves all the attention that it gets and hopefully will continue to get in regards to the film. Let's get into the stats. This was written by Miasha Coleman,

2:25KT: a novel that was written over fifteen years ago, self funded with her husband to bring this film. No major sort of production into it. It is a very insular sort of production financially in regards to the film. We also have Jamal Hill directing. We have Reyna Love, Erica Pinkett, and Vivica A. Fox. Mhmm. You know what I love about Black Twitter, Oti?

2:25Oti: Yep.

2:25KT: Whether they choose to or whether they're doing it to be playful, they tweeted the ever eternal Vivica A. Fox asking her, why was she so mean to her kid in this movie?

3:08KT: Like we mentioned before, this film is very accessible. It is available on Amazon, pretty much everywhere around the world. Make sure you go and check it out. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, and universal splooshes, splooshes, splooshes, Oti. Let's get into our first impressions in regards to this film. As learned as we are, you know, because I did mention I read Pride and Prejudice, there are many books that we didn't even know about or we just haven't read before we watched the film Companion of It. Mhmm. So give us your first impressions.

3:50KT: We pretty much just stumbled across this film. And how did you feel watching it? We'll come to the twist in a second, but how did you generally feel about the film?

3:50Oti: I enjoyed it. I enjoyed what it was telling, the storyline, the messaging.

4:06Oti: And I thought that a lot of the times that it brought us to think, to talk and think about things that we never really did and that was an essence that I didn't think I would be talking about after watching a movie. Yeah. Especially seeing the poster, it didn't give anything away and I didn't know what to expect. And, you know, we love watching and supporting black creators. So when he came across it, he was like, oh, cool, let's give it a go. And

4:34Oti: at the end of it, I was sitting there on my couch and thinking, wow, wow, I didn't expect it to go this way. I didn't expect to have so many feelings about it. I didn't expect to have a conversation that we had after the movie and what else can a movie do rather than incite this emotions and feelings for you?

4:34KT: Oh,

4:57KT: Sometimes even though I'm a straight shooter, pow pow, sometimes it is hard to have difficult conversations, even though they need to be had. So you have films, you have music, you have arts essentially to help you convey what you've been trying to communicate to people that you hold dear. And I really enjoyed the journey that we went on in this film without knowing any sort of context because, like we mentioned, and I guess let's talk about the twist now, the women that we are presented to are trans women. So without any sort of inkling,

5:41KT: it's not even in the description, which I am finding to believe is possibly deliberate. So, you know, the opening scene that we have in this film is, you know, they really get 'em girls, you know. They're going out, they're getting theirs, they're unapologetically embracing their sexuality. And then it comes to a point where we realize, oh, there's actually more layers to this. Right? Interesting. It was interesting, but also at the same time, I guess part of it is, and Miasha, I'll talk about it. I was watching an interview, a TS Madison

6:16KT: interview where she was talking about it. She actually gave two reasons on why her as a cisgendered woman decided to cast cisgendered women and not trans women in these roles. So we'll come to that in a second, but just generally talking about the twist, I wasn't expecting that, but that's also when I started to care. Because at the start, it's like, yeah, they're at the club fine, a thousand dollars, but then you think about, you know, the long con, right? They're

6:46KT: obviously going to recoup that thousand dollars. Yeah. Right? So we understood that and we got that. So I'm like, okay, fine. But why do I care? Like, why do I care about these two women? Right? There's also an internalized hatred that I would say on behalf of cisgender, but also all women in general have and the way we pit each other against men because they were calling them thots, but they were acting pretty thotty, I must say.

7:19KT: Yeah. So it was it was a it was a dynamic that I was like, okay, fine, but we've seen this before. You know, Hustlers to a lesser degree, Pussy Valley, P-Valley to the celestial degree. Mhmm. Like, we've seen hustling men for their money. So we've seen it before. I'm like, okay. Fine. Let's continue to see where this is going. It was distracting to have that handsome prisoner, that meme, if

7:19Oti: Yes.

7:19KT: You I'm sure even his mother calls him the handsome prisoner as well. So

7:52KT: it was like, okay, fine. Where are we getting into? A lot of the time I like to find where I can lay my emotional resonance. Right? So at that particular point, I didn't really care. And then when it came to the twist, it completely transformed what this film was going to be. Right? How I feel about trans characters being the twist is a story for another day, but it's also a story that's beyond Secret Society. Alice in Borderland, without spoiling anything, we have covered it, go and watch it, it's on Netflix.

8:25KT: They kind of have like, not to say it's a bad thing, but I would love to live in a world or in a dimension where trans characters are just trans characters. Veneno, for example. So The I I guess that's just sort of my general feelings in regards to this film. Let's talk about the twist.

8:47Oti: Okay. So you said that those are reason why they cast cisgendered women. Could you shed light on that? Because I think that was one of the questions that I asked you at the end of the movie and having some trepidations over what to cover on how I would be able to speak about this, then I think it's important to sort of lay that out now.

9:07KT: Yeah, absolutely. I am also a cisgender woman and unfortunately that means there are some blinkers that I have in regards to the overall experience of all people, including trans people. But in regards to the TS Madison interview that Miasha was on, she gave two main reasons why she chose to cast cisgendered women instead of trans women in in Secret Society. The first one being that she wanted the twist to be a twist. So she wanted cisgendered women, so they're women. And there was a part of me that was feeling a bit of like umbrage

9:53KT: in regards to that because trans women are women and they can be wholly feminine female presenting. Mhmm. There's a there's a whole spectrum to how presenting we can be as women. But, you know, that's fine. I didn't really care for that particular explanation, but it was one of those, when it becomes a twist, you're like, oh, okay. And not like, oh yeah, I saw it coming sort of thing. So that particular reason I didn't really care for. But the second reason that Miasha gave was that she knew if she was to cast

10:29KT: trans women in a film like this, it would automatically turn people off this film. And let's be real. Let's talk about it. Because as much as we live in a, you know, I'll sploosh you if you sploosh me sort of For Your Reference world, unfortunately, there are ignorant motherfuckers, and I'm sure I I can be kinder to that, but there are ignorant motherfuckers out there that as soon as they see a trans actor, a trans person or a gay person or an LGBT

11:02KT: QIA plus person, they're like, oh, it's a queer story. I don't need to watch this sort of thing. So that kind of made me a bit more understanding about it. Because as soon as I, you know, try to do research in this film and I learned that the two main leads were cisgendered women. It did it didn't sit well with me, but I'm glad that I watched the interview because she was saying, as much as we feel like we've come so far,

11:29KT: there are an audience of people that just will automatically disregard it and not watch it for that reason. Right?

11:36Oti: So

11:39KT: that's that's the reasoning behind why we have cisgendered women casted in the role. Some people might not even care, which is great. But also for those that she wanted to be able to reach that could possibly challenge, maybe not change, but at least challenge their own ignorances and ugly behaviors towards other people, then that's also a win as well.

12:03Oti: Yeah. Fully agreed.

12:05KT: And friends and lovers, take note. This is a very valuable, not just podcast, but life lesson that Oti demonstrated. Hear more about the facts before jumping into your opinion. So yeah, Miasha was also talking about how when she wrote the book fifteen years ago, she just started writing them as Get them Girls without any sort of semblance. You know, it would be nice to understand what that creative process looks like, but it came to her while she was writing the book about trans women. Right? But she went out and she did her research. Is

12:44KT: this phrase okay? Is what I'm saying offensive? Is this correct? How does this work? And even in regards to the film, Amiyah Scott, she reached out to Amiyah Scott on how the film sits and whether it's comfortable and whether it's, you know, celebrating trans people in the best way possible. Trans women in particular. Black trans women in particular. Protect black trans women at all cost, friends and lovers. All right. So now we've got all of that out of the way, and I hope that does help because I was feeling a way

13:21KT: after watching the film and feeling a way about it. So hopefully that will alleviate your feelings in regards to the film and we can start to appreciate the film. And hopefully when we get to reading the book for what it is. So I definitely wanna sploosh and love and give accolades to Miasha and the whole team at Secret Society for telling a story that we don't normally hear. That is also done in a way that is celebrating trans women. It doesn't necessarily focus on the journey, even though we do have flashbacks. It's them

14:02KT: living in their truth, fully loving and embracing themselves. Whenever we have stories that focus on opulence and fortune, I want to feel poor when I'm watching a rich story. And that was absolutely achieved. Also shout out to the costume director because this film had so many outfits, so many grandeur, everything felt rich. And the fact that they self funded this film is also credited as well. There were jets, there were designer goods, there was popping bottles at the club, there was everything.

14:41Oti: True. Yes. There was definitely an air of opulence all over this movie. And, you know, Celess and Tina really did bring out the characters and decided to sort of care for them, especially when you started listening to their backstory and getting to know them as people and how it all sort of transpired and why they do what they do and how they became to be. And I think that was one of the most intriguing stories that I've seen this year so far.

15:13KT: Oh, absolutely. It was a film that mind its own business and really focused on the characters and the journeys that they were going through. Let's focus on the two mains. Do you wanna start with Tina or you wanna start with Celess?

15:28Oti: Let's start with Tina.

15:31KT: Okay. I have a lot to say in regards to Tina and Celess's dynamic. Tina is definitely the more assured character, I would say. And I I also believe it would have to do with the fact that Tina was out before Celess was. Yeah. That unfortunately garners building of a tough skin because kids are dickheads and they grow up to be dickhead adults as well. And, you know, there were semblances of bullying through the film as well. And when we first meet Tina as a kid in one of the flashbacks, she's unapologetically herself.

16:18KT: You know, even though bullying and terrible inflicting lifelong trauma was going to happen to Tina, she was happy to be in her own skin.

16:18Oti: Yes, she was.

16:31Oti: I think one of the most sort of important moments in the movie was seeing how she probably navigated life as a little kid alone by herself and how she was able to live out her life and support herself without having any sort of support. Her mother, well stepdad both died you know and it's one of those things that you realize just how much so much trauma that Tina had gone through to see the sort of protectiveness that she has for Celess. She has that sort of mama bear presence to her where she wants Celess,

17:10Oti: she's always there to give advice, she's really you know, cut the fucking emotions out. Yeah. It does not matter. At the end of the day, you're looking out for you and yourself and your well-being, you know, because no one else is gonna do that shit for you. Absolutely. And she paints that really, really well. I think it's one of the, it comes across, you know, and Celess keeps on referring to this throughout the movie, you know, for a cold hearted woman,

17:37Oti: she really does care. She really does love.

17:37KT: Cold hearted people have the warmest heart. And that's coming from a cold hearted bitch. I think it's like you Well, I guess I can only speak for myself, but like I choose when to care because even though you care doesn't mean the other person is receptive or reciprocating that. And it is very unfortunate for Tina's backstory. I guess I don't wanna go into too much detail because I know some of you friends and lovers

18:13KT: are nasty people and you're continuing to listen even though you haven't watched the film. So I won't go into too much detail, but there was a lot of trauma in regards to Tina's upbringing and what she went through. And it felt real, if that makes sense. Because what you you would hope, I would imagine as an audience member, is to have moments of resonating opportunities with the characters. And Tina, straight from the jump, we were absolutely in love with her. And we wanted the best for her. But a very interesting sort of dichotomy,

18:55KT: not necessarily with Tina, more so with Celess, but I will mention it now, is even though we could see how rough it was for Tina and Celess, going to the present in regards to the story, we still felt a way about them conning people. Yeah. Which was very interesting, right? Because I don't necessarily think it was a problem with the writing. I think it was just our love for all people and then us not wanting innocent sort of bystanders, so to speak, to be chumped.

19:32Oti: Yes. And I think I didn't get to feel that until Michael was introduced. You know, the other people who are there to have fun, to cheat on their wives. In and out. Yeah, in and out. Like fair enough, you get yours, you be happy, doesn't fucking matter. But then when feelings get involved and emotions and people's, you know,

19:51Oti: starting to develop this sort of love for you. You're like Avatar tentacalling each other. Yeah. Then that's what things start getting murky. And I think Tina brought it up pretty quickly and she was like, mate, you need to cut this off right then and then because this guy's getting feelings and it's getting serious. And this is where things can get really, really messy.

19:51KT: But I I think it's also at the same time, like, Tina is coming out of a place of love

20:16KT: and a place of experience. She's not just saying it because she's a bit of bitch. Like she wants Celess to be okay and she learned that lesson the hard way. So she doesn't want Celess to have to go through any sort of pain if she doesn't have to.

20:16Oti: Yeah. I think that's one of the core moments in the movie because that was one of the major discussing points that we had. You know, it really just started

20:40Oti: a conversation between the two of us where we had to sort of weigh the sort of issues or the moral quandary that was being presented because at the end of the day, when is it right? When is it right for you to draw the line and to be fully honest about something that's intimately yours and not anyone else's fucking business.

21:07KT: Yeah. Well, I guess we can come to that when we talk about Celess, but Tina in particular, you know, we also have flashbacks when they were working on the streets and it's that innate sort of survival and that innate sort of feeling of safety. Tina trying to school Celess and being like, make sure you take a photo of the plates. If don't come back in half an hour, you know what happened to me. And I guess it's also interesting from a story point of view when Miasha decided to drop these little nuggets, right? Because

21:45KT: you can tell a linear storyline, which is absolutely fine. Usually convolutedness is the Nolan sort of landscape where Nolan's thrive. But in any case, you can have flashbacks and that sort of thing. I don't necessarily like how I have a problem with narration in most cases. But in regards to the flashbacks, it was interesting that we weren't introduced to them working on the streets until after. Because that didn't get introduced until later on in the film, which

22:16KT: looking back at it now, I do wonder if it's like, so us as an audience don't judge too early. But for me, it kind of reinforced how I felt about Celess. So let's go to Celess. I don't wanna talk about the ending of the characters right now. So let's go to Celess now. I had a problem with Celess because she seemed to always feel like there was an option. Fine, but also at the same time,

22:46KT: when you feel like there's always gonna be another option, there's always gonna be another opportunity that you can con someone, that's where it becomes very dangerous. And a lot of the time watching this film, I had a lot of anxiousness and there was a lot of suspense. And I was really stressed watching this because it's one thing to watch cisgender women, you know, embrace their sexuality. Unfortunately, in a male dominated sexual liberated society, that's one thing. Right? But to see trans women navigate this world, knowing how cisgendered straight males are threatened

23:28KT: by the thought of sexual experiences with anyone that isn't cisgendered women, It made me stress so much. And I guess that also in a way made me care for the characters. I don't know if it forced me to, but it made me care about these characters and I didn't want anything to happen to them. Yeah. And Celess was playing a very dangerous game.

23:53Oti: She was. She really was playing a dangerous game. And I think she was doing even more so than Tina was before Tina found Derek. So it was it was a point where I was like, surely the ball has to drop somewhere. Mhmm. Because if you don't have was it O? Yeah. Michael, James, Gary? Like, it was so many people in and out and at a higher risk of spoiling yourself. So it's man, I was just worried that things was gonna go really badly quite quickly for her. Yeah,

24:25KT: I agree. And I think it's, I feel like Celess always felt like she was always going to have Tina there to have her back, right? She was kind of always her safety net, which isn't a bad thing, but then it also means you don't understand the full risk of what you are doing. And it was symbiotic and it was beautiful to see that Tina and Celess had that reciprocity, right? The yin and yang. But also at the same time, you want your girl to succeed.

25:01KT: And sometimes that means she's going to succeed on her own. In that case, it's when Tina and Derek got together. Right? Yeah. You have to be happy for your friends, especially the ones that have been sheltering you and looking after you and protecting you and insulating you with the love that you deserve and Tina also deserves.

25:22Oti: Yeah. Those are moments of Celess's reaction. I was like, oh man, just have to be happy. But then you come to realize that it's not coming from a place of jealousy or anything like that. It's just more worry because she just thought there had to be something deeper, bigger issues that she wasn't seeing because happiness wasn't meant for them. Those, they were never going to have a happy ending, were never going to have a prince and that was just a thought far removed from her that she didn't really see. And we get to

25:51Oti: let her on see that she finally accepts that and she sort of sees Derek for being just a good guy. And Tina fully getting what she deserved in life and that's love and happiness.

26:03KT: It was interesting to see the differences, you know, because Tina I think Tina was just more aware of where they have been and where they could in a blink go back to. I don't think Celess really registered if this fucking falls apart, this go get them hustle sort of nature, they would be back where they were. Yep. And I don't think she and I guess it's also because she had Tina as a safety net. Like, if this doesn't work out, Tina's gonna figure it out for me. Right?

26:39KT: That's kind of how I saw it happening. It wasn't uneven sort of dynamic as beautiful and loving as it was. Sometimes Tina just needed to live her life.

26:51Oti: Yeah. Yeah, I see that. But they've been through this throughout their whole life, know, Tina taught her a lot, but at the end of it, when Tina had written that letter, she said that, you know, Celess, despite everything else, she learnt a lot from Celess. Yeah. You know, it wasn't just one way, it was quite symbiotic.

26:51KT: I don't agree, but Maybe that was just one of the things you say just to make the other person feel better.

27:15Oti: But to me, it just showed the sort of bond that they had that regardless of how one-sided it seemed to us at the start. But there are different ways to love and receive love.

27:26KT: Yeah. My love. And some people receive love through helping others. And Tina's just one of those people. Well, since you took us there, let's go all the way there. You know, we talk about Oti being the accountant because he has so much tax. I think I have trans tax because I was giving a lot of graces to Celess, not necessarily Tina, more so Celess. Right? Moments where, you know, regardless,

28:00KT: she was being a terrible person, but I was like, no, but you don't understand what she would have went through. You know what I mean? Like, I had a lot of taxes in regards to this film. And in regards to, you know, the trans tax that I have is I don't wanna see trans characters die. I just don't wanna see it. Right? Like, show us the pain and the struggle of their life and then they die. Like, I don't wanna see it. Watch out for my screenplay. All trans people live and no one dies.

28:34KT: How did you feel I guess it's for emotional payoff. Yeah. That Tina pretty much met her character arc. It was it was it was a wholly fulfilled character arc for Tina. However, Celess still had a lot to learn. So I would say for this to happen, it would be some sort of emotional payoff so that Celess will be able to grow in the way that she has resisted being able to grow throughout the film. Thoughts?

29:08Oti: I don't think I agree with that. I think Tina dying was just one of the things to show that, you know, a lot of the times we don't really get our happy endings, you know?

29:08KT: All

29:21KT: trans people deserve a happy ending, no one else.

29:25Oti: And you know, for all that they've been through, you know, it was one of their earlier sort of encounters that brought that to them. They knew they were dangerous, but yet they took the chance, you know, they they bought their thousand dollar bottle because, you know, James was gonna have a big career being a basketball, you know, being drafted in the NBA and stuff

29:25KT: Tina like

29:48KT: was taking risks, but she was smart about it. Why did Tina have to absolve the sins of Celess?

29:58Oti: She didn't. She didn't have to absolve. It was out of love. She put herself in front. She was like, nah, if you have any qualms, deal with me. Let Celess go. You know? At the end of it, Khalil didn't care. Khalil was gonna kill both of them. It's just she didn't he didn't do he just didn't shoot Celess critically,

30:21Oti: you know?

30:21KT: Yeah. But that just shows how amazing Tina was as a character. Because even though, yeah, it was all for naught because Khalil was gonna kill both of them anyway, but she's still trying to save Celess. Do you not understand the imbalance in their dynamic? She was always trying to protect Celess. She's the mama bear. When did Celess ever say, hey, shoot me instead?

30:50Oti: I'm sure given the chance she would, you know, she'd probably trade places. No. I reckon. I don't think it's that one-sided. I think she really does love Tina. And at the end of it, you know, she, Tina bought her house for birthday gifts. Mate, how many people give houses as gifts unless you're bloody Oprah?

31:13KT: Hit us up on sugaroties.com. Did you see the film playing out in the way that it did that Khalil was going to come back? Did you see it playing out that way?

31:26Oti: No. I just thought that leave and leave happily ever after.

31:32KT: Right? Riding off into the sunset. No. But then again, those are

31:36Oti: Celess was narrating in this and she said things are gonna get really bad because It's dangerous. Yeah. When it's too good to be true, usually is. You know, so those that hanging over our heads throughout Yeah. Not knowing, wait a minute, when is it gonna get bad? You guys are living it, you know? You're getting yours, now Tina's married, you have O and then O dies. And I was like, oh, maybe that's why. But now there's more to come because that's the biggest loss in the movie.

32:06KT: Oh yeah, like from Celess's point of view but she was being very dangerous even before O dying and shout out to Tray Chaney, our Poot from The Wire. It's good to know that Foot Locker was treating him well. I got a million became a millionaire out of that. Because he was married, yeah? Yeah. He was married but he was rich, he had excess and he was spending the excess on Celess.

32:06Oti: Yeah, so it's weird that

32:36Oti: some of the men both on Tina's and Celess's side knew who they were and they just went along with it until they've walked comfortable enough to tell them. And even when, you know, Celess was telling O, O was like, is that because of it? I already know. I don't care.

32:54KT: Well, I think it's, you know, people worry so much about what the conventional sort of standard is in regards to sexuality. But what goes on behind closed doors consensual is really none of anyone's business. It's only because they're worried that their boys are going to hear about it. Yep. Right? And that's why I fucking hate Michael and he's a piece of shit, but we'll talk about him in a fucking second. He is toxic Michael masculinity. Wow. Yes. Wow. Yes. But let's talk about her.

33:27KT: I think even from like a story, a writing point of view, everything was happening so perfectly for Celess, right? She wanted the happiness that Tina had and O came along and promised her that. And I'm like, nah, something's going to happen. Something's going to happen because, you know, without trying to check the duration of a film, we were like, no, there's still some movie to go, something's going to happen.

33:53Oti: Oh, for sure. For sure. And the way that it happened like, and Celess just thinking, oh, was being a dick or just, you know, returning the favor of not responding to her messages. Yeah. I was like, oh man, at what point do you get to worry that something really bad has happened? And, you know, and this is where you see the differences

34:15Oti: because Tina straight from the bus, was like, something's wrong. Call the hospitals Yep. Make sure something everything's alright. She didn't even bother. I think it was like more way more than a couple of days. Yeah. Because, you know and that gives you the difference between Tina and Celess. Tina's Tina knows that the world is shit Yeah. And you start from the bad. Like, don't don't assume that she he's just ignoring or some shit. Yeah. Start that worst possible scenario. That's probably where it's at. So start with the hospitals, see where it's where it goes.

34:48KT: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It was it was definitely one of those things where but were you still sad? Even though you saw it coming, were you still sad?

34:48Oti: Yeah. It's

34:48KT: We love Poot. Yeah. I just I I wanted I wanted some more character development out of Celess because I do feel like if she had, you know, worked on her self growth a bit more, then Tina wouldn't have died.

35:17Oti: Yeah.

35:18KT: Actually, I I would say no going back on what I said because Khalil was out for blood anyway. Khalil was out for blood, you know, he Khalil in, Khalil out.

35:29Oti: It doesn't matter, mate. Like, I don't get it. Had a sexual encounter, you enjoyed yourselves and you parted ways. Yeah. What more is there?

35:39KT: Nothing. Aside from, you know, the third act. And I think also at the same time, I do like that it didn't come out of nowhere, right? It was when Tina and Derek were at the basketball game when they came to visit, that's when they saw him. Right? So it's like, it was brewing from there. So it wasn't like, know, deus ex machina and it came out of nowhere. Like the pieces were there, unfortunately, you know, penance had to be paid. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk a little bit in regards to the flashbacks. Tina specifically,

36:19KT: like I said, I think it's just something that you need to experience while you're watching, even though the main spoiler has already been spooshed. Let's talk about Celess and her mother, Vivica A. Fox. Not Vivica A. Fox, please don't tweet her. She's credited as Celess's mom.

36:38Oti: There was a lot of things in that. I think one of the first conversations they have together there's a very sort of sentimental disconcerning, heartful thing that Celess discovers. Yeah. The dad left because of who she was. Yeah. And that's one thing that she didn't really it was a lot about moments. She was like, wait, what?

37:03KT: I am so fucking sorry. But how do you have a child and then because of who they are, nah, bruv, I tap out, I'm out. Like how the fuck does that even work? How does all of the years of loving your child just turn into I'm walking out because this is so difficult, Even though it has nothing to fucking do with you and it's hard enough for Celess to even accept herself. How dare you? Yeah.

37:28Oti: Yeah. You know, it's it's ridiculous. And also, this is mom to completely blame it on her. Gross. Oh, man.

37:37KT: That was that was some heartful shit. But I must say there is a there is definitely an art in being a thespian, which I believe Vivica A. Fox is. But there's also the lack of suspension of belief because I, with my eyes, could not see my ever eternal Vivica A. Fox saying that. So I was like, good acting. I was like, what a brilliant performance. I know you don't believe a word you were saying, but you're doing it well.

38:08Oti: Yeah. That was really heartfelt. I think the one thing that Celess wanted was affirmation. Yeah. That she was loved somewhere, that she belonged somewhere that,

38:20Oti: you know, even her mother would love her for who she was.

38:20KT: And then after, I think it was a year after she was on treatments, she went to go and visit her mom. Yeah. And there was a perfect acting, again, there was a glimmer where you realize the switch and she realized that that was Celess.

38:40Oti: Yep.

38:41KT: And then she played it off and closed the door. And it's like, why do you close the door so you can have a fucking breakdown? Do you not understand how many breakdowns you've caused for Celess?

38:50Oti: It is gross. And that's why you see this shaping Celess, know, it's she didn't feel like she deserved love because she didn't get any. She just thought that, you know, if my own mother cannot love me for who I am, who the fuck would? Yeah. And why the fuck would they?

38:50KT: Well, trans coming out stories,

39:11KT: at least in our purview, we don't see and hear enough about it. But also at the same time, I'm glad that this film exists and hopefully for trans kids out there that they can find something, maybe not be able to show your parents and they'll fully care and understand, but at least have some moment of reprieve where you can live in this world and how glamorous it is, how beautiful Celess and Tina are as well. Right? And how much love and adoration that they're getting as well,

39:48KT: know, to be like a fuck you to your parents.

39:48Oti: Yeah, exactly. And you need to be able to say fuck you, know your self worth and fucking walk out, know? Just say fuck you and going home, Catman style. Nice. Yeah. Love that.

40:02KT: So we even have the conversation where Celess is like, you know my friend Tina, she's a boy, she was assigned at birth, going through that whole conversation, that's me too. Because at least in regards to the world of cinema and also TV shows, we do have more than a few experiences being told from a gay point of view, but it's nice to also see trans as well. Because it's like

40:35KT: your parents can kind of maybe comprehend gay, but what does trans mean? You know what I mean? So I do appreciate that, you know, it's in this film and hopefully those that are able to can resonate and get some reprieve from that as well.

40:35Oti: A 100%.

40:35KT: Let's talk about your best friend, Michael. Oh, Michael, Michael, Michael. I think part of the problem that we have, you know, in this Disney, even Marvel sort of age, we're still in the twenty twenties dealing with mustache twirling villains or Lawrence twirling villains. I'm talking about Insecure.

41:22KT: Final season is coming up soon, I'm very excited. Where someone is very obviously bad, and then you know that they're a bad person. I categorize Michael in the same as all of the toxic men in this film. Wow. You didn't seem to have a problem with him,

41:22Oti: but I also see layers, mate.

41:22KT: Mhmm. I see layers, mate. Alright. Michael is a fucking problem. Michael is a fucking problem. Okay, fine. Let's ignore the very suspicious way he happened upon Celess. Let's just completely ignore that, fine. But the way in which he conducted himself upon learning

42:11KT: about Celess is a problem. So let's completely go there, my love. I'll just ignore the shady way that he met her.

42:11Oti: It wasn't shady. He was getting in his car. Celess was deep sea as fuck.

42:22Oti: And he was being a gentleman. He was like, mate, I'll call you an Uber. And then Celess passed out. Don't neo year the gentleman mean.

42:32KT: Okay. So let's talk about it. Celess, which you would argue took too long to tell Michael. Right? Yeah. Whether we agree on that point or not, we'll come to because it's it's very spicy. But there is a dinner and Tina and Derek fly down to support her. Mhmm. Right? And at the dinner, she isn't ready but she's ready and she blurts out, I'm a man. And then looking at Michael's reaction, she said, manager.

43:09KT: And then I was like, oh, don't do it. Don't say something that's going to hurt her. And then it was like, oh, I thought you're about to say you're a man. Like he made this whole, you know, uneasiness about her being comfortable to share who she is. I don't necessarily see it derogatory as Celess's character and also in the writing for her saying she's a man, because it's one of those things where she is identifying and she is sharing a part of herself. Even

43:44KT: throughout the film, there'll be semblances of, even Tina saying, you're gay, I know it. It's one of those things where it's within the community to patrol, I'm not gonna patrol that about Celess saying I'm a man. Because she is a trans woman. But yeah, like Michael informed, I'm pretty sure our beloved Oprah is the one that said, you show people how to treat you. And that's what Michael did. He wasn't receptive to it. So let's go to the moment where she actually is ready, I guess you wanna say,

44:21KT: but this is the tipping point in Celess and Michael's relationship. You go because I'm going to tear Michael and you and you asshole. So

44:32Oti: Michael Michael was taken aback. You know? Fair enough. Fair enough. He couldn't comprehend or compute what he'd had and what he'd experienced. And to me, that's fair. He did say some hurtful things which were not needed. I don't agree with that, but I felt that a lot of the people would need a moment to get themselves together.

45:06KT: Okay, Okay. Okay. That was me trying to get myself together because there is a lot to talk about because you're saying that Michael is okay to be granted this moment of, you know, bringing himself together. However, there is a transphobic, homophobic response, and you cannot ignore that my love. Because yeah, you can talk about, you know, he wasn't aware of it and he didn't realize this is what was happening and he didn't know who Celess was wholly as a person,

45:42KT: but that's not what was happening. That's what you're saying is not what was happening in this scene. He was like, oh, I made love to a dude. I kissed the dude. I kissed the man. That's the language. So in that sense, he can fuck right off to Mars or Jupiter or whatever the fuck that book says men are from. Right? I do not want one iota of Michael in my presence. It was disgusting how dare him. Trans women are women.

46:15KT: The same thing if you had 10 kids Oti in each continent around the world.

46:15Oti: Who told you?

46:15KT: Gondwana Land told me. Like, that's not something you disclose on the first date. So Celess is a woman. So why does she need to disclose anything on her first date? The problem that he had was the fragility of cisgendered straight males. That was the fucking problem.

46:15Oti: I hear you.

46:15KT: And if you wanna tweet at me, that is the heat I'm going to come with. The idea of him no, listen, let's bring the parallels back.

46:54KT: You know, we had the equivalent of the locker room chat when James was talking to his boys and they were like, oh yeah, you know, derogatory derogatory, they came here, right? So they're here now and he also mentioned their names, right? That moment where they were talking, they were being really transphobic, ergo 2021 Coming 2 America barbershop scene. Right? That's the same reaction that Michael had, and you cannot convince me otherwise. Just because someone doesn't present as a dick, doesn't mean they're not a dick. And Michael was a fucking dick.

47:36KT: I introduced you to my child, you know what he meant by that. You know what he meant by that. It wasn't introducing a romantic partner, you know. You

47:46Oti: know. I took it. I took it as introducing someone who No.

47:52KT: Refuse.

47:54Oti: I took it as him introducing someone who he didn't fully know to his kid. You know, it takes we've seen it a lot of times where people want to introduce their kids to people who know they'll be there, know, they'll stick around, they've developed a bond and a trust. So when Michael rightly or wrongly felt that this trust was betrayed, then he felt a way. And I think a lot of the times, I get it, there were some things he said that I didn't agree with,

48:29Oti: but I think it was just more of him coming to terms and realizing that, you know, he just needed time to sort of aggregate it all. And having gone so far in their relationship, I think he needed that. He needed that time because at the end of it, see that Michael does come to terms and calls Celess.

48:53KT: Well, first of all, I disagree though. I didn't agree with that ending. I am all for breaking up toxic relationships and Celess and Michael were not going anywhere. They should not be a couple at all. And you know it's gonna become a Malcolm and Marie motherfucking situation. As soon as something happens, Michael's going to say some you know what? It's gonna be Celess laying in the tub trying to mind her business, and then Michael after having his mac and cheese coming over and spouting some hateful shit

49:28KT: at her. I don't agree that they should be a couple at all. And and I guess that's as much as I will say, but Michael is a fucking problem. And friends and lovers, when you are digesting any sort of media or even in your real life, just realize there are shit people without them having a neon sign saying, hey, I'm about to fuck up your life.

49:50Oti: Fair enough. Fair enough. Like, I'm not going to counter that with anything because I do agree that there are shit people out there that don't present as such. But for me, Michael, I think it's more nuanced. It's more complicated.

50:06KT: No. It is. But it was the words that he chose to say. Because let's be real. It's the words he chose to say. Let's go back to our Pussy Valley. We know how we feel about Uncle Cliff. Yeah. And we never want her to be hurt in any way. Exactly. So there you go. The pussy restaurant.

50:29Oti: Pussy restaurant indeed.

50:34KT: Friends and lovers. Trans women are women. Protect black trans women at all costs. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

50:34Oti: I'm gonna reference

50:49Oti: P-Valley baby.

50:51KT: Oti,

50:52Oti: M I. Crooked letter crooked letter ah.

50:56KT: Oh, I guess for the whole stage name, listen to our Splooshies Awards episode and also our Pussy Valley episode, Friends and Lovers. I will reference Veneno. We will definitely be covering it, Friends and Lovers. And if you've got some sad tissues as well as your happy tissues, make sure you also check it out because we will be covering it on our podcast.

51:23KT: Mhmm. If you would like us to cover you on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Secret Society podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week.

51:38Oti: See you.