Insecure – I got Nathan but love

Full transcript of Insecure – I got Nathan but love.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and guess what? Black lives still matter. Robert Fuller, Rayshard Brooks, Malcolm Harsch, Toyin. This isn't really a spoiler. If you have watched Insecure, the show within a show this season was Looking for LaToya. And they recently released a podcast episode, and at the end of it, Issa Rae mentioned Black and Missing Foundation, which is a not for profit that helps to find particularly essentially an equal opportunity to find missing people of color. So we'll put the link in the show notes as well.

0:40KT: But the fight is still going on and don't be comfortable with discomfort. Shit has to change and we love you guys and just like Issa, Natasha Rothwell, Prentice Penny, everyone at the show, we also need our levity. So let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:40Oti: And Oti.

0:40KT: And delete those texts and dodge your exes. Mm-mm. Because we are covering Insecure. Wow. I did not know Insecure. I did not know that there was a a Kenyan version of Insecure starring

1:40KT: starring Oti Martin Lawrence Walker. Oh, you're welcome. Well, this is some high spirits. I'm glad. I'm glad with wherever this is going. Mhmm. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. We take kindly to your kind around here. If you didn't know, most deliciously, we did do an episode on Insecure, and it covered the first three seasons. Yep. And most deliciously, it is the second show or movie franchise that we have revisited, Oti. Woo hoo. Special. Woo hoo. So very, very exciting. I guess that's also to say if you wanna hear us discuss the first three seasons of Insecure,

2:19KT: definitely check that out. It's also the closest in relationship podcast you will ever get out of the two of us. And we really just focused on Issa and Lawrence. I almost forgot that motherfucker's name. I wish he was fading out of sight. But, unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be what's happening. I do imagine that we will given the nature of season four, I feel like we will go back to examples in previous seasons. But that Insecure episode is a great one. So, you know, it's what the kids call a double feature.

2:53KT: Mhmm. Strap in or strap on if you're feeling nasty. So yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Everyone knows that I have had a one way love affair with Issa. And I will always defend Issa until the ends of my ligaments. But I'm glad that in season four you finally saw the light and you know the the because a lot of the time I'm like come on know Issa's you know she just had a shit go. That's an Australian term. She just had a shit go. Right?

3:30KT: And she she was really given the short end of the stick, and I'm glad I'm on it's unfortunate she had to go through shit in this season, but I'm glad you finally came up aboard on the Issa love train.

3:44Oti: Not really the Issa love train. Just because I'm not supporting Molly anymore because of episode nine doesn't mean that I'm on the Issa love train. Just be clear.

3:53KT: Are you still in the hive?

3:53Oti: Yeah.

3:53KT: Jesus. We also found out in the first Insecure episode that we covered that Oti is the president of the Lawrence hive, so

4:06Oti: I am not a fan. Except registrations are open now, so, you know. Yikes.

4:10KT: Feel free to email your details. The future deadbeat dads of the world. I guess it's a good time to say spoiler spoiler spoiler. If you haven't seen, especially the finale, you're not really missing out on something. I think the finale was nonsense. I only acknowledged the nine episodes this season. It wasn't that bad. No. It's kinda like, you know how you read a book and you have like an epilogue, which is like super exciting because it gets you tantalized for the next book in the series. That's what this felt like.

4:39KT: The writers were just like, we we got renewed. We're going to have season five of Insecure. Let's just plant these motherfucking seeds. Let's not care about anything.

4:48KT: And then in the last two minutes, give the people what they want.

4:48Oti: Oh, wow. Yes. You really must be upset because I can I can hear your Australian accent coming in, mate? That Lou Carpenter. Oh, that Prentice Penny, mate. Just just saw saw the season five and renewed, Wow.

5:06KT: Shout outs to our Australian and international listeners that maybe not understood the reference, but you watched either Neighbours or Home and Away. Mhmm. You don't get much more than that. You just get acknowledgment. That's it. But yeah, I will say, since we're kind of rolling in naturally because we're super pros, gay. We're rolling into first impressions of this season and just general sort of thoughts. This is by far the best season of Insecure. Yep. But also at the same time,

5:42KT: it is great because of the emotional investment and the seeds that were planted in season one, two, and three. So it's the best in the most gut wrenching, most triumphing of ways, but it couldn't have been the best without all of that legwork and as Oti loves a strong foundation.

6:00Oti: It's pretty much The Godfather Part One of the series because once you've realized all the background with Molly and the relationship with Issa, then you can fully appreciate what season four brings.

6:00KT: I love one and two of Godfather.

6:00Oti: No. I'm saying season one was there's so much happening, and there's a lot of storylines, and you're like we said it ourselves. We wanted more backgrounds on why Don Corleone was being like that. And then season four.

6:00KT: Excuse me, Oti Corleone.

6:00Oti: This is

6:30KT: Issa Corleone

6:31Oti: episode. If if if this if this was sort of reshuffled Oti Corleone. Would have started fast, and then we would be like, oh my god. What is this? Well, then you need Taye Diggs because we're jumping back and forth in time. Well, Daybreak, mate. I feel like we should stop referencing unless we're actually going to cover it. I don't think there's enough people who appreciate what Daybreak was at the time. Is that It set a precedence.

6:55KT: Is that is that the shark you're going to jump on? Yeah. After that, go FlashForward. Borrowing heavily from Taye Diggs. Okay. So every every sort of time jump has to credit Taye Diggs. Yep.

7:07Oti: You know?

7:08KT: If you came here for Insecure talk, don't worry. We are definitely getting there. So obviously, we're going to talk about spoilers. If you haven't watched Insecure and you just miss your most delicious friends and lovers, then you're more than welcome to stay by. You won't really understand what we're talking about. Mhmm. But hot diggity dog. Strap in. Let's let's get into it. I feel like every episode went from strength to strength in season four. Yes. Again, I don't like 10, but I guess we can leave that right until the end of our discussion.

7:39KT: But I really appreciated how every episode had a theme that it wanted to capture and it executed it beautifully.

7:46Oti: Yeah.

7:46KT: It it really did low key. You know? High key.

7:51KT: Am I using did I do a slang, kids?

7:55Oti: Alright, fellow kids.

7:55KT: That's a 30 Rock reference. Thank you, Oti.

7:55Oti: We had Prentice Penny sort of saying even before the sort of season, I think it was after the pilot saying that people need to calm down, and everything would make sense up until the season ends. And it's it's a slow buildup, but it'll get there.

7:55KT: When you say pilot, you mean the first episode of the season?

7:55Oti: Yeah. The first episode, not pilot. Anyway

7:55KT: That's fine.

7:55Oti: I rated Insecure the first three seasons higher than you did.

8:23KT: How dare you? What if Issa listens to this?

8:23Oti: I rated it higher than you did. But for them to elevate it to this season,

8:31Oti: I I I I didn't think they were capable of doing that story wise. I thought we'd already sort of Like, I thought we sort of in the picture of what Issa would be Yeah. And what Issa is.

8:31KT: I don't agree with that.

8:31Oti: No. No. Of what of what Issa would be and is in the show with her events, and and we know how Issa is in terms of how the problems she faces. Mhmm. And we've gotten a lot of we've gotten three seasons to back that up.

8:56KT: Oh, what? I don't I'm not liking where this is going.

8:57Oti: No. No. No. No. No. Like, I I pictured season four completely different from what I ex from what I watched. And it's a good thing. I'm not saying it I'm not saying it as if it's a bad thing.

8:57KT: Like I think that's wrong because even hang hang on. How dare you? First of all. Second of all, how dare you? Again.

9:15KT: I think that's wrong because I think what you're trying to say is we didn't expect much from this explain me. I okay. Friends friends and lovers, this is actually this perfectly captures our dynamic that I, as the woman, is mansplaining to you.

9:28Oti: Because you're currently holding the dildo.

9:32KT: Oh my. Oh my god. The garden variety? Yeah. The archer kind? What? What? If you didn't know why we're called For Your Reference, that's why motherfuckers. And if you didn't know why we had the explicit tag, that's also why motherfuckers. But yeah, I don't know, man. And I feel like tell me if my feelings are wrong because that's what men like to do.

9:56KT: I feel like what you're trying to say is Issa was was just going to be complacent the way that she's been these past seasons. And if that well, let do you wanna confirm or deny that, sir?

9:56Oti: Not necessarily.

9:56KT: Okay. Good for you. Because even in season three, we see her striving to do more. You know, she was no longer at We Got Y'all.

10:14KT: Mhmm. Right? So she had already started to move those cogs. So I think to say that you weren't expecting her to soar the way that she did, like a phoenix rising from the Lawrence ashes, how dare you?

10:26Oti: I didn't expect her to do that or to push through, especially losing her support in Molly. See, and that that brought Molly's problem. Yeah. And that brought a new dynamism to to Issa as a character.

10:41KT: Okay. So we could do this episode by episode, but I think the most effective way would be relationship by relationship. So let's talk about Molly. Let's talk about Issa. But I think the best way to do it is let's focus on Issa as a character. Let's focus on Molly and let's see how unfortunately they entangle each other. So, you know, everyone loves Issa and I will hear nothing of it. If you don't. Don't besmirch my queen, Issa, in the For Your Reference household or otherwise. But she really was. She was she she was complacent.

11:11KT: She was in a five year relationship where she wasn't happy. And episode eight really it it cajoled me in all of the ways that it needed to. It was the reprieve. It was the healing that we need to have. So we have her at the start of the series where she's complacent, you know, in every sense of the word. She's kind of not consciously aware of what she's doing because that's how she's dealing with it. And we've all been there before. Right? She's dissatisfied. She's not happy

11:38KT: in a relationship with Lawrence. Lawrence well, obviously, it's warranted. He fucking forgot her birthday. But, anyway, we have a whole episode talking about how terrible Lawrence is. So a very balanced a very balanced discussion. So we have Issa in a romantic relationship where she is not happy. She's complacent, she's kind of just riding by. And then she's also in a job that she's not necessarily passionate about. Right? So she's kind of living vicariously through Molly

12:07KT: and she's not really taking her life by the cojones. Right? That's kind of the Issa that we knew for two and a half. Oti might say three.

12:07Oti: I'd say three.

12:07KT: How dare you? But what we see is there is a shift in her, you know, cheating, whether it's right or not. It was right for their relationship and them to grow as people. But obviously, morally, ethically, it's wrong. But we're in a TV show. So we're we're living in our fantasy land right now.

12:38KT: So what transpires out of Issa cheating happened for the best of her and Lawrence. Right? So you have Issa being like, actually, no. I it was the inklings of I don't have to live the life that I'm half living. I can actually live it fully. It's going to be harder and it's going to require me to bring more effort than I've ever brought in the last few years. I think there was interviews

13:02KT: that she was doing for We Got Y'all. And no one realized that she had worked there for that long or she's in the same sort of position. So I think that was also a wake up call for her as well. And we have a lot of romantic entanglements. Shout out to Daniel. I don't think we're really going to talk much about Daniel because he wasn't in this season at all. But she she leverages strength and she leverages networks and connections and we see that with Condola,

13:26KT: when they go to the they call it open air film screenings in Australia. I'm not sure what they call it, but it was that kung fu sort of movie. Right? That's where she met Condola. And then we also have her meeting Nathan. And Nathan really is and I will fight you bitches. Nathan is the catalyst for her to take that leap. Alright. And the bitch speaks. You wanna fight me so soon? In any case, I I'm just painting the picture of her character development.

13:57KT: Right? She and then we have her coming into her own. You know, it feels great. It feels good. She's she's she's struggling, but she's still doing the best she can. Right? She becomes like the equivalent of, like, building management for the apartment complex. So that's where she's earning her money. She's she's, you know, playing the block party. She's doing all of these events, and she's really just bringing everything to come together.

14:21KT: I also wanna point out that it wasn't a smooth sort of sailing for Issa, you know, late season three all the way through to season four. But the difference is who she was as a person. She valued her passion, and she worked that extra bit harder to get there. Yes. So Issa Where's that butt? A great ass.

14:44Oti: I have qualms with Issa. I've had qualms with Issa, and she just said with that you, but here we are ten years later, my love. Clearly. But with this season, what we see from Issa is completely different. In that she gets someone in Condola who who's sort of like a Molly, a successful black woman who's

15:04Oti: holding her own and doing her own thing. You know? I agree. And Issa looks after Condola, and he could see this bond and friendship brewing. Mhmm. The only caveat is that, of course, they have to add an extra complexity where Condola is actually Lawrence's new girlfriend.

15:21KT: Yeah. It always gets so incestuous shows. Hey. Maybe not Game of Thrones. It's not really incestuous, is it? No. But, like, all of the storylines always have to connect to each other. Yeah. Not Game of Thrones incestuous, but it still gets incestuous in the sense that there are no like, all the characters know each other, and they all, you know, tickle each other. Yeah. Yeah. True. And

15:40Oti: forming it, I just wanted Issa to have a friend as apart from Molly. Who we know Molly has issues? But I was always with the fact that at least Molly would be down for Issa regardless. Mhmm. And that's what I thought. We're gonna come to Molly. We're definitely going to come to Molly. Yeah. We'll we'll get to Molly. I have a lot to say. But that changes as well. And you can see Molly's behavior and reactions towards Issa and Condola's friendship, and you can tell there's something wrong. And there's a rift

16:07Oti: there's a rift Yeah. Building up. Yeah. So that was some serious sort of uncharted territory we've not seen before in the show. Oh, yes. That was a dynamic shift, definitely. Because now Issa is trying to be this strong, secure financially and, you know Mhmm. And that's completely outside the norm of what we know of this show and what we know of Issa. Yeah. She's it would be that she's going against the title. She's becoming secure. Yeah. Does she just call this secure?

16:38KT: Like a Is that a jingle? How much are you gonna charge for that jingle?

16:43Oti: I love it.

16:45KT: That's why we're not a jingle podcast for your jingles.

16:49Oti: But it's it's definitely interesting. And and especially to do this on the fourth season where a lot of shows sort of fall into the the territory of normalcy. They've already established everything, and it's easy to go with the flow. It's just recycling lines and story lines. Yeah. They've completely reshuffled what Insecure is and what Issa is as a character to this and the friendship dynamics for all the friends, all the four friends. So let's Including their partners. So let's talk about Molly. Mhmm.

17:20KT: The the biggest qualm in all of the For Your Reference land. There's a problem. And I guess it's something that I will never understand because on paper, Molly is fucking ace and she is living amazingly. Sterling K Brown was an option for her. But again, he was great on paper, but I think Molly just couldn't find anything wrong with him. So she just got bored with him. Right? She she has this she has this unresolved complex where she wants love but she's not able to receive it in any sort of meaningful manner. Yeah.

18:01KT: Right? And we see that time and time again. She lives in this, not necessarily delusional, but a very naive sort of sense of what the world is. You know? She she still functions on the basis that her parents are perfect and they're not humans. And, yeah, the the dad cheating obviously affected her mom, what the fuck does that have to do with you? It literally sent her into a spiral, and that's where she she and Dro were stabbing each other. You know what I mean? Like, oh, Dro.

18:32KT: I'm so glad. He's in Games People Play, Sarunas Jackson, so we don't need to see him in Insecure. But Molly, I don't fucking understand her because she is successful professionally. Obviously, you know, especially as a lawyer, she would be earning quite a lot of money. She

18:50KT: she's able to buy herself all of the best things and she definitely deserves it. And we've seen, you know, even when they go in their trips away, even to Malibu, she's always working. Right? She's very successful. She's very driven and she knows exactly what she's doing. She takes care of herself. Right? Not just not just in any not just, you know, professionally, but she physically takes care of herself. Mhmm. She is gorgeous. Love you, Yvonne Orji. Molly is gorgeous. Right? She's gorgeous. She's successful. Why the fuck is she so miserable?

19:23KT: Right? And I think that also points to it doesn't matter how rich you are. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter how successful you are. People hurt and people feel shit. But I felt like all of that was self inflicted with Molly. And if that's not the case, then perhaps they need to give us some more dimension because time and time again, she is that five year old that can't understand that we as humans as are complex. Yeah. And sorry, I need to continue because I'm gaining steam right now. But with Molly,

19:55KT: her as a friend, I'm not even talking about her as a lover, her her, if you're part of the reference, her as a friend, she and Issa worked when Issa wasn't doing so well in her life.

20:09KT: Right? Which is cute. You know, all of us keep you know, if you're still using Facebook or back in the time when we used to Facebook, we used to keep people that weren't doing so well that we went to high school with or college with or whatever because it makes us feel better. You know what I mean? Like, there are those people you just watch and it just makes you feel better. But Issa was such a good, good close friend of Molly. So it I don't know. It's just confusing to me that

20:33KT: everything that I felt about Molly manifested itself in season four. She's the type of friend that just can't be happy for you, especially when she's going through shit. Shit that is self inflicted, mind you. Man, this is a Molly episode. We're definitely going to focus on other shit, but I just wanted to I wanted to bring the comparison there because we have Issa where she wasn't doing so well in the first part of the series, first half of the series. And then we see her

21:01KT: struggle, continue to struggle. You know, there were moments with Issa where he's just like, come on. Come on. Get it together. Right? You've learned this lesson. Stop looking at dick pics. You're going to get into a car accident. Do better. Right? And it's so delicious to have that character development with Issa. Right? And then again, we have that dynamic shift with Molly where she's not doing so great in her life. Yep. Right? Everything that Molly has been saying isn't great. Right? But if we go if we fast forward

21:31KT: to the last episode of this series where she's talking to Andrew, all of her feelings were valid. Right? But the problem that Molly has is she doesn't allow other people to have any feelings. It's only her. Because she's justified. She's justified. And, obviously, she would feel a way about Condola because Condola is, yes, very successful. I would say, though, no one ever makes it in life on their own. Everyone needs networks.

21:57Oti: Mhmm.

21:58KT: You know, to be tangibly successful in any sort of sense, you need to be able to network with other people. So I don't think that's a problem. The reason why Molly started to get a bit bitter was because the success that Issa was experiencing, she had nothing to do with it. She didn't contribute to the success that Issa was experiencing.

22:18Oti: Agreed. And I think one of the sort of qualms I had with Prentice is that

22:18KT: Why are really coming for Prentice? No. You're really uncorked right now.

22:18Oti: No. There was zero character development on Molly's part. The Molly of season one is the Molly of season same Molly. Yeah. And that's that's that's an issue. That's an issue, especially when everyone else has developed in some way. Actually, yeah. She's the only one. She's the only one that just stayed the same character.

22:45KT: Maybe because we were introduced to Molly when she's super successful, they felt that there's no need to develop her as a character. What's the opposite of a plot device? Because that would be her. We'll we'll call it a Molly device.

22:53Oti: Because you could pretty much take the Molly of season one, episode one, the pilot, and Same. Same. Same. This scenario and situation. And she'd behave exactly the same. She'd be do all the same sort of characteristics that she exposes. It'll just be her. And that is poor writing. Regardless of whether or not It's it's terrible. Regardless of whether or not it was planned, it's poor writing.

23:16Oti: And For five seasons. Come on, man. What what what difference do we have with Molly? Nothing. And you know I've come like, I used to back Molly on some of the shit that she said to Issa. I try and look I try and look on the other side and say, okay. Issa hasn't been great here or whatever. But then it came with the episode where we actually had Issa doing something and

23:35Oti: setting up a fundraiser without Molly's help. Yeah. Only for Molly to be told by the boyfriend Andrew. That be proud. This setting up something like this is not easy. The block party. Yeah. So he had to remind her to have some humanity. And you could see it shook it shook it shook Molly because she wasn't even part of it at all. Andrew, Asian bae, the patron saint of patience. Like, a lot of the development or whatever the foresight that's being done on Molly's part is through Andrew.

24:03Oti: Everything. Yeah. He grounds If Andrew doesn't say or mention anything, Molly is the same. Yeah. He she's just, you know, she's just doing a John Cena hand wave in front of her face. You can't see me. And it's the same

24:17KT: I was wondering what you were doing over there. Like, oh my god.

24:23Oti: Andrew is the only saving grace. I love Molly. I love Molly. I love Molly as a character. No. And I've defended her through even up until the block party. Don't you feel dumb? But when Issa reached out Yeah. Issa took made the effort Yeah. Knowing full well Molly was never gonna do that. Yeah. Episode nine. Yeah. Because it's not her it's not her her her thing. Yeah. And for Molly to just completely shut her down even to the extent of texting Yeah. Andrew saying, can't you see how I'm trying?

24:58KT: Yeah. Oh my god. Does she need a fucking medal to keep the friendship going? Yeah. Like, she I don't get it. Like, I'm sure there's a technical term about, like, a princess sort of syndrome, but that's Molly all over. And you're exactly right. Nothing has changed from Molly in season one Yeah. At all. All of these entanglements that she's had along the way, you know Meant nothing. How about Jadena?

25:20KT: Jadena. Yeah. Where he was, like, the plus one, and she was begging you, you know, and then he obviously didn't wanna be there. That's just ridiculous. Yeah. A fun fact,

25:29Oti: Miguel was actually supposed to be casted as Dro. No. Dro is really hateable. If that was Miguel

25:35KT: It would be interest no. But it would be interesting to see Miguel play Dro. You reckon? I don't know. But I don't think we would have hated Dro because Miguel's such a cool gag. That's what I'm saying. Who's the character that plays him? Sarunas Jackson. He's got a really fucking punchable face.

25:50Oti: Yeah.

25:51KT: If that was Miguel, nah. It won't work. It won't work. Well, it it just happens to sleazy and skilled. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, he just he just plays the part. He is the part. And you can believe Dro is exactly like that. Miguel would be like Well, he was outside of the show. He got one of the Tasha pregnant. Right? There you go. There you go. Mhmm. Sarunas or whatever. We're also the gossip podcast, friends and lovers. But let's talk about Issa and Molly specifically.

26:18KT: I was frustrated, and I've been frustrated for five seasons with Molly

26:21Oti: because again you even added an extra season on there just to add your frustrations.

26:27KT: No. Issa sent me the quarantine season five. She's like, stop messaging me. But with Molly, she is a fucking problem. And the fact that even when she went into therapy, I think it was in episode nine, but it was like later on in the series, she went into therapy and she was just complaining about Andrew the whole time. And, you know, the therapist was like, you know, is there anything you could have done differently? She's like, no. Like, obviously, she just didn't wanna do the work. And what was really interesting, interesting

27:00KT: is the word I will use, but there's I guess there's a better word to say it, was when Andrew was trying to break up with her. And then that's all, finally, wow. I understand the depth of therapy. I understand I need a change. What do you need me to do, boo? I'll cater to you. What do you need? And none of that was work that she wanted to put in with Issa. And even even Andrew was like, what are you fighting for right now?

27:25KT: Maybe we're just not a good match. What are we fighting for right now?

27:29Oti: Yeah.

27:30KT: And I I don't get it. Like, Oti is patient, but I don't think he would be that patient if I was Molly. Like, I don't think I don't think he would be that patient with me. But every like, he always had to be the wise one, the calm one, you know, the one that always appeased her. It was always on her schedule. Yeah. Always on her schedule. Always on on on

27:51Oti: whatever Molly wanted, it would be done. Yeah. If if if he wanted to invite Molly to a dinner event, Molly would shut that down and it'll be the end of it. But for Molly,

28:01KT: oh, he has to bend bloody backwards for everything Molly wants to keep up on. Just dismissed it. When he said that he's done and he doesn't wanna go to another bar or whatever, she couldn't understand it. She was just so incredulous. She's like, what? We're already out. You know what I mean? It's fine that she didn't wanna, you know, be around the brother or whatever, but you need to grant the same graces,

28:21KT: girl Oh, yeah. To Andrew. Right? Because obviously no one's condoning what Victor did. That was a shitty thing and I hope we get some time to talk about that. But it doesn't matter. What whatever it is, whenever you're in a relationship, you need to compromise. And I think Molly sees compromising as losing her sense of self. Like, that means I'm weak because I'm giving into this man. And it's a lot to do about her perception, I would say, because she understands so fully that she's entitled to her feelings, but then no one else is.

28:53KT: Make that make sense because it doesn't. And it's really interesting about Molly, and we mentioned it in the other Insecure episode. But, you know, as modern, in quotes as she is, you know, she's she's she's she's working successfully in a high position. You know, she has an assistant that she's looking to fire very quickly. You know, she's made enemies at her work, but, you know, it's to the success of her, you know, building her career.

29:19KT: You know, she she's she's done so much and she's dating. You know, she's not being super exclusive. She's, you know, she's she's she's seeing multiple people at a time and it's very modern of her. Right? But then there's also this very naive conservative side to her, which doesn't make sense. You know what I mean? She's like, I wanna do this, this, and this, but this is how the world should be. And it's like, no, girl. We need to wake up. Oh, yeah.

29:44Oti: Yeah. Like, I feel sorry. Sound tired. I feel I feel sorry I feel sorry for Molly the best of times. Like, a lot of the times and a lot of situations, I feel like she just can't help herself. It's not until season four where we get to really see behind the facade of what Molly is, to really unveil the character when things aren't really going her way. Her character's very ugly. When things aren't really going her way, that's when you get to see Molly shining her awfulness.

30:15KT: Like, I think she she thrives best when people are below her. And they're not, but in her perception, they are below her because they're in a relationship with Lawrence. Yep. Or they're in a job that they don't love. Like, she functions better with that because she's not she's not as close with Tiffany or with Kelly. One of the most telling things

30:35Oti: was when they'd just done the game night and Issa walked out after reading the text. And then Molly says, I don't think we can we we we can we can be friends anymore. I don't think we can this works. Then don't say that, she if you don't mean it. Okay. And then she took it passively as if, mate, you're supposed to fight for me? I fucking hate that. I fucking hate that. Oh, wow. Fucking hate that. They intentionally write wrote Molly to be hateable because I cannot believe

31:00KT: Who's who's worse? Her or Maxine? From Living Single.

31:05Oti: Oh, Maxine had her flaws, but way. Molly is way worse. Molly is way could be appealed to. I think she could be appealed to. Because she used comedy as as a defense mechanism. Molly is just yeesh.

31:22KT: Is it garbage day? Yeah. All of this Molly talk is bringing up garbage collection. Oh, but she's a problem. She's really a problem, and it's fucking exhausting. And, you know, I think we said it in the Insecure episode. I'm a major cutter. I'm all about cutting people out of my life. Like, whether you're family, whether you're the queen, whoever the fuck you are. Like, if you're if you're disgusting in my proximity, I'm going to cut you off. Right? So Molly Molly would not be in my life Yeah. For what she did. And

31:55KT: I just wanna take a moment to talk to the straight women that are listening to this podcast. Don't do that shit. Don't don't say things just so your partner can run to you and cajole you.

32:11KT: Because Oti thinks I do that, and I don't. And it's very frustrating because you have a perception I guess everyone has a perception of, you know, the girl's going to fight and you just have to fight back or you need to fight for the love or whatever. And I was like, nah, man. If I tell you to fuck off, you need to fuck off. Plain and simple. And the fact that Molly did that to Issa,

32:32KT: like, I don't think we should be friends anymore. What what what what do you expect her to do? Grovel, beg for your terrible friendship? Nah. Nah. Sorry. Sorry, man. Nah. Sorry. And it was so hard for me to enjoy the episode, not just because Jay Ellis directed it, but it was hard for me to enjoy the Mexico episode because I'm like, you shouldn't be happy. You need to go fix your friendship.

32:32Oti: Well, that happiness was pulled in check quite faster, wasn't it? Because

32:56KT: No. But I'm just saying in general, it was frustrating to see her. Even when she was on holiday, she kept bitching about Issa when she heard Issa in the background of Nathan's call with Andrew. She started bitching about it. It's like, you why can't you just be happy with yourself? What Issa said was true. It hurt her, but it's true. When Issa said, I think you just don't wanna be happy.

33:19Oti: Maybe so.

33:20KT: Maybe so. What scenario does Molly need to be any sort of semblance of happy? Like, what scenario would she want to have?

33:29KT: I really have no idea that. Because she's not I don't think the writers know what exactly would make Molly happy. She's very ambitious. So I don't think she would do well with being a full time mom. I don't think she's that sort of woman that would be a full time mom. But then she yearns for it. I don't know. I don't like and it's like, it's not even that she's complex. She's she's so simplistic that there's nothing to pick from her. It's like the opposite.

33:57Oti: Maybe so. Maybe so. Wow. But let me let me let me throw you this question then. Mhmm. Issa's stuck. She needs someone to come and play at a concert.

34:09KT: Yeah.

34:10Oti: Oh, we got we're okay. We're we're diving in. Okay. Okay. Molly Mhmm. For help. Molly says, nah, man. I'm at a weird place with my boyfriend. I want I don't wanna throw favors in at the moment. Okay. Issa goes behind Molly's back.

34:10KT: I don't agree with those words, that that vile garbage you're saying, but anyway.

34:10Oti: Oh, behind the back. It's behind the back whenever you want to look at it. You're like behind my back. Mhmm. The view is awesome. Issa goes behind Molly's back. Uh-huh.

34:38Oti: The question is, would you have done the same? Okay. Well, you framed it terribly.

34:43KT: So in that case, I don't agree with what you're saying. Let me set the scene.

34:48Oti: Send it. Send it away. Send it away in a way that glorifies Issa's behavior.

34:54KT: You need it. You need it. Are you looking to have your own podcast? Because you're going the right way about it, my love. So Issa is struggling. Right? Is it to to plan any sort of event, you need to plan for the fact that you can't plan for everything. Right? All this ScHoolboy Q, you know, it just falls through. Right? So she's she's in a rut. She's trying to figure out where to get her headliner. That is the situation.

35:22KT: At that point, it wasn't explicitly said that they weren't cool with each other, but there was an uneasiness between them. I think this was after the Thanksgiving episode where they didn't talk. Right? Mhmm. They were supposed to meet up and have that big conversation and then it became too big for them to face. Right? Mhmm. So, you know, we've had moments where, we don't really know where this friendship is going. It's kind of declining, but hopefully we can bring it back together. Right? So it wasn't explicitly said that they weren't friends anymore.

35:48KT: I don't know, man. Like, even if I'm angry at you, if you need help, I will help you. But that's just me personally because I'm the best ever. But anyway, that's not a podcast that we're doing today. But with Issa, she that's that's her natural default, you know? And yes, you can call that using Molly,

36:08KT: I don't agree with. Or, yes, you can say that she's relying too much on Molly. But let's also not pretend that Molly gets off on the fact that Issa needs her. She has a savior sort of complex in that sense. She likes that Issa needs her and that she grovels to her. And then once Issa has any sort of success that she can be like, yeah, I helped you. So let's let's not pretend. Let's put all the cards on the table. To say that Issa was going behind Molly's back, I don't think is fair.

36:36KT: I don't think that's fair. So I think Molly's essentially paraphrasing was, you know, I don't wanna mess things up between me and my man. Molly, you can't blame your shitty relationships with other people. Like, she she seems to think that all of the problems that she had with Andrew had to do with Issa, and you can fuck off. That is some immature bullshit. Not anyway. Let me paint this picture for you, man. I haven't finished my picture. Lord Ross. Alright. Rude.

37:05KT: So the way I saw the scenario was she needed help. And you even saw she was contacting local LA artists. It wasn't like she was just like, oh, yeah. I know Andrew's there. He's just going to save me. Right? She was putting in the work, but it wasn't working. That's why networks are very important. Right? And let's also not forget that Molly knows Andrew via Issa with Nathan. So that's different. That's a whole when you think about it that way, it's a whole completely different dynamic shift.

37:33KT: She had she had something going on with Nathan. Andrew was the friend. Andrew was the roommate. And then Molly and him, okay, cool. You don't have to always acknowledge that, but let's just acknowledge it in that sense because she didn't even ask Andrew. She was talking, confiding to

37:49Oti: It was all the receipts, did she?

37:52KT: I've got the legitimate you've got the counterfeit receipts. Oh, wow. Right? So she was talking to Nathan as she would talk to a friend. And who was the friend that she was talking to before? Molly. So if you don't wanna help, fuck off. Okay? So she was talking to Nathan as a friend trying to get help. And obviously, Nathan was going to extend that to Andrew.

38:11Oti: Because of course.

38:13KT: Okay. So however you feel about however you feel, feel free to let us know. But let me just say, everything that you're saying is undone by Molly when she chose to bring it up nearing the end of the block party, which is definitely wrong. That just shows you're making it about you.

38:30KT: Why did you have to bring it up at the event? But anyway, when she said that, she was like, I told you not to talk to my man. So what was it? Was it that she was getting help from Andrew or was it that you weren't a part of it? What was it, Molly?

38:44Oti: I'm not Molly.

38:45KT: Are you sure?

38:48Oti: It's one thing for your friend to tell you things aren't going great between you two. Things aren't going great between them at all. Every both sides knew. But once she needs a favor, she didn't feel it weird to just call up Molly and be like, hey. Because Molly was waiting up for Issa, Thanksgiving.

39:09KT: But you know Molly is like, no.

39:11Oti: She's busy. She's doing her own thing, her own friends, ignoring Molly. And then when Molly when and then it's all falling apart on her end, that's when she realizes, oh, Molly is my buddy. I need to call her for a favor, especially when you're you're not even facing a poor an under the underlying problem

39:28Oti: between you guys. Mhmm. I found qualms with that. I would be like, piss off if that was a friend of mine aren't on good terms and then he calls up with a favor. You need to keep in mind, that was the dynamic with Issa and Molly. Molly's Doesn't matter. Does it? Molly was always a successful friend that helped her. But this is to Molly's mind, this is classic Issa, isn't it?

39:46KT: Yeah. But classic Molly is her enjoying that. She hello? We just talked about episode nine when she was waiting for Issa to grovel. She enjoys that shit. The only time that she called to reach out to Issa, which we saw the last scene of in season four, was her reaching out to Issa because Andrew fucking broke up with her. That is a terrible friend. So she's got We don't have them broken up off. She's got nothing she's got nothing now, and now she wants to be Issa's friend?

40:14KT: Piss off. Nah. Sorry. That that that that is a that is a no bingo. I think that's another Australian phrase. So it's interesting. It's interesting because we have Condola saying that she wasn't ready for a child when she was in her other marriage, but she's ready now. You you said selfish earlier. I feel like she's kind of being selfish to be honest. Like, if you're ready to be a mother now, does it have to be Lawrence's seed?

40:44Oti: Then that begs a bigger question, isn't it? By keeping by keeping Lawrence's

40:48KT: seed and saying you can be as involved as you want to, Lawrence, and I will say this once, in essence, is a good person. Uh-huh. Right? That's character development on KT. He is a good person. So obviously, he would wanna be present in the child's life. And to I don't know. It seemed like they had a clean break and it didn't seem fair. Ordinarily,

41:12KT: I would always I would always side with the woman wanting to keep the baby. I think it's just the way it was presented in the show. We don't see Condola for a while or canola oil or Condoleezza or con man, as I like to say. I'm just going to pretend like mine was viral as well.

41:30KT: It's I guess it's an interesting sort of dynamic and I don't think it's wrong for Issa to have to ji like, take some time just to digest what that would mean. I think a lot of the time in our lives we're like, okay, fine, let's just get married or okay, let's just have kids. And then later on down the line realize that you're not happy. Or let me just be with Lawrence even if I have to move. Because Issa feels very LA to me. Everything everything in her love language is LA. Right? So

41:56KT: not to say that she couldn't thrive events wise and career wise, you know, in a different city, but she felt very LA to me. So for her to relinquish that part of her to move with Lawrence, that showed how much she was willing to make the relationship work. However, a whole baby is different than moving to another city. So I think it's definitely worthwhile for her to, you know, figure out what's going on

42:23KT: and what will that mean for the next season.

42:23Oti: Maybe I'm just of a different generation and I don't see it as a problem.

42:23KT: I thought many times hang on. Many times on the podcast, you said we're of the same generation.

42:34Oti: It's just weird that she reacted like that, especially if she does love him because no obstacle should be great enough to make you guys break up if that's really what you want to do. But, of course, they'll throw the they'll give us the low hanging fruit in Issa's feelings, and they'd probably break up after that, which is ridiculous because they made season four such a big episode in leaps and bounds, especially when it comes to Issa's and Lawrence's relationship.

43:00Oti: And the episode where they talk about their feelings and what transpired in their relationships was one of the strongest things we've seen on television, especially in Insecure's history. And then to all outdo it just because of a fucking baby, I just feel it's it's it's a bit soap opera y. Yeah. It's it's it's lazy, and I'm not I'm not for it. Like,

43:23Oti: you you can start with Issa on whatever the side she's on and how she's entitled to feel exactly how she wants to feel. But if I love you and this was before we met and you had a kid If you love me or and you had a kid, then it'll be a no brainer. It doesn't fucking matter. But then again,

43:40KT: this is the Issa love fest right here. It is the Issa love fest right here around around here. But I think it's different because they broke up and they were considering whether they should get back together or not. It's not like they were together and then this happened, but then that doesn't make it better. But I just feel like there are circumstances surrounding that. We love Christina Elmore. Otherwise, people will call her canola oil. We do love her, but I feel like her role is more important in Twenties.

44:07KT: So we should see her in Twenties. Come to think of it, her character in Insecure and also Twenties It's kinda similar. Is very similar. Right? Yeah. She's like she's kinda similar Well, her character in Twenties specifically is kinda like Molly, but she doesn't attack other people. She attacks herself, which is more sad really.

44:27Oti: Yeah. She's more repressed than anything else, especially in Twenties.

44:32KT: Yeah. She's an imploder, not an exploder. Yeah. I I don't know. Did you think that the Condola storyline was done? Because she was kinda gone for a few episodes. Did you think that she was kind of out of the series?

44:45Oti: For some reason, yes. I chose to believe that we'd get the happy ending that.

44:51KT: And they skip off into the sunset? Yeah. Yeah. But clearly, that's not what this show is about. So Yeah. Well, I think it's, you know, coming back to you, if I loved you and you had a kid, even though we say that you've got all the babies everywhere. I think it's different. I think it's I think to quantify how we love each other and we have cataloged documented ways we love each other on the podcast, it's different. It's definitely different for each person. So they were just at a different place in their life.

45:22KT: Right? And the the fact that pretty much any sort of circumstance wouldn't change how we feel about each other is just credit to, as Oti loves to say, a strong foundation. But Lawrence and Issa don't have that foundation anymore. It got crumbled by her cheating. Right? And it got it got further decimated with this baby along the way.

45:22Oti: I reckon they had a stronger foundation especially after episode eight.

45:22KT: Yes. Because There was definitely potential to go there.

45:50KT: And I think we thought when Lawrence came over, I think we thought that Lawrence was going to say that he fucking Lola or they're gonna get back together. We didn't even think that they were gonna bring a baby storyline. Yeah.

46:01Oti: It felt very Days of Our Lives.

46:01KT: Not even Bold and the Beautiful?

46:01Oti: No. Days of Our Lives. It's Sami and can't remember the characters, but there was a girl called Sami there, and she would this is straight out of our playbook.

46:15KT: I feel like Days of Our Lives was like if you weren't cool enough to watch Bold and Beautiful.

46:15Oti: No. I felt like Days of Our Lives is sort of high echelon stuff.

46:15KT: Vomit. Okay. Well, let's get through some other characters while we still have some time. Let's talk about Nathan. Nathan, Nathan, Nathan. I I do wanna give some kudos to Kendrick Sampson who plays Nathan, also to Issa, Prentice, Amy, Natasha, and, you know, everyone at the helm at Insecure for covering mental health, for covering bi bipolar in Insecure. Yeah. Because,

46:52KT: you know, a lot of the things that I was saying about what what I what I loved about Insecure, what didn't bring it to the next level is it was something to watch and that's it. It didn't really resonate. And I really because you didn't have to. Like, they didn't have to introduce Nathan's storyline. He could have just been a shit person and, you know, disappeared for a bit and came back. Yeah. But they have a platform, they have a show and, you know, much like the way that they hire,

47:19KT: you know, black creatives, you know, women on the crew, they they decided to use Insecure to explore that. Right? And, you know, in interviews that Kendrick has, he talks about to be a black man in America and not experience any sort of mental health issues is impossible. And, you know, Kendrick as a person is fucking great. You should definitely follow. And he also has an organization as well for advocacy. So the fact that they chose to go through that and to introduce that through his character

47:54KT: is commendable in every way. And you know I'm putting on my delicious resonating voice, and it also means that he should be with Issa. Why the fuck is Nathan why the fuck is Lawrence even in the equation?

48:07Oti: He's in the equation because, duh, Issa loves Lawrence. They've got history and you can't beat that with any sort of good looking man coming to the picture.

48:19KT: Oh. Mhmm. Look at you being secure in your sexuality. No. But let's let's let's let's leave the cards on the table. With Nathan, he encouraged her to create it. You know, it was a it was a hushed sort of dream that Issa had of wanting to run an event after she went to Condola's

48:42KT: event. Right? Yep. And Nathan was like, say it with your full chest, you know? I wanna organize an event. I can do it. Right? And even when she got bombarded in paperwork and, you know, trying to appeal with all of the bureaucracy, Right? Nathan's like, you can do it. Keep pushing. You can do it. So yeah, you can say there are negative parts to Nathan, which are definitely warranted and he doesn't even try to make excuses for it. He acknowledges it as well. Right? I think he has the most self awareness in

49:12KT: this show as well. But, you know, he encouraged Issa to do it and he was supportive in all of the best ways. And yes, Issa loves Lawrence and they they had a relationship for five years. How much of it was thriving and how much of it was full of life and how much of it was actually healthy and conducive for both of them to grow is a conversation for another day. But sometimes love isn't enough, you know? There's a reason why we

49:38KT: have jobs. Hopefully, they turn into our passion or we are doing our passion, but we have interests outside of our romantic entanglements. And I think that's an important thing to point out. And Nathan, you know, even when they got naked in the pool together of the house that, you know, Issa said that she grew up in, you know, she he reinvigorated her. He shook up her senses. He made her see life beyond paying bills and beyond being the dutiful sort of girlfriend.

50:08KT: Because let's not forget in episode eight, which were the most rawest of episode, Issa said there were times when she would just drive around because she just didn't feel like coming home. And that's some fucking real shit. Right? So we can say Issa and Lawrence forever because they've been together for the longest time. And that's the first time that was the genesis of Insecure. But we also need to understand that, you know, a relationship grows. And if you don't grow with it, if you don't grow with that other person, unfortunately, you will wither away.

50:40Oti: I reckon, but they had to grow as people before they could be together. Oh, yeah. That's what the separation provided. Definitely agree.

50:40KT: But that doesn't discount Nathan as an option. That's what I'm saying.

50:40Oti: It does to me.

50:51KT: Well, yeah. Because if we broke up, you're hoping that we get back together again. And that's why you love My bad. That's why you love track pants wearing, cereal eating Lawrence.

51:01Oti: I think Issa doesn't have any male friends and this would go a long way into high establishing But I don't really have male friends either. Aren't I your best friend?

51:15KT: That's a bit too cringey. That's like TikTok cringey. Right?

51:19Oti: You're welcome. But Why is it important that she has a male friend? Because it will expand her sort of horizon and the views and the thought process. Usually, it's just her relying on Molly for everything. But here you have Nathan who's supporting her in a career in a sort of positive way, reinforcing the belief that Issa is capable rather than just, you know, the sort of mundanity it is with Molly at the moment. Yeah. Nathan provides something different. And if he just start mixing that up with relationship and it just makes things ugly.

51:52Oti: And and I'm all for Issa just having a platonic relationship with Nathan because it seemed like it works.

51:59KT: Have you not been listening to 60 plus episodes of For Your Reference with friends and lovers? I'm addressing you, Oti. I'm addressing you as my friend and as my lover. Oh, not best friend. Football friends. That's an in between as reference, which we do have an episode on, which you should check out. I don't know. I you have a really weird point of Issa needing a male friend and it needs to be Nathan. I don't fucking understand that. Like, it works. Like,

52:24Oti: what part of it, you seeing them together being friendly

52:27KT: made you me. When eve when Issa came over to help him move, he wanted a fuck. He was in heat. Like, couldn't see. Nathan was ready to give that good d. Right? And he's always, like, trying to run away. And then Nathan was like, at least, you know, the one that you cheated on, like, is that is that who you're with now? It's interesting, you know, because

52:50KT: relationships are a hard fucking thing. Right? Because to have one person that's supposed to fulfill you in every sort of facet is a big ask. Right? Most people just tap out and say, I'm not monogamous. Right? But that's usually I said that word, leave me alone. I said that word correctly. So it's a lot to ask. Right?

53:16KT: Can I have a man that helps me push my passion and my dreams? Can I have a man that will fuck me on a Ferris wheel? Can I have a man that will ask his friends for favors when I need it in right in the moment of the block party? Can I have that? Hallelujah. Yes. You can with Nathan.

53:34Oti: Yeah. And leave it as that then.

53:37KT: Can I have a man? That's not friends. Those are lovers.

53:42Oti: I I think we just see this completely differently.

53:46KT: I just I just appreciate the clarity of Nathan. And he's like, yeah. I'm going through some shit right now, but I'm gonna be okay. I'm sorry that I hurt you, Issa, but I'm going to be okay.

53:57Oti: Then Daniel used to try and talk up Issa as well with the music and stuff.

54:04KT: Yeah. But that's no. But that that's exactly what it is. Whether it's whether it's romantic or not, you know, there are people in our lives that remind us that we're worth shit. Yeah. And Lawrence wasn't doing that. As much as you love Lawrence, he wasn't doing that at the start of the series. I didn't think he was. But I must say, in episode eight, I was emotional and I said I can kinda see them together now.

54:29KT: But it didn't last long because then my my hate fest

54:29Oti: You are yearning for them to be together. Don't don't downplay that feeling. I was there witnessing it.

54:29KT: I was Keith I was Keith Sweat, Twisted all over it.

54:41Oti: Well.

54:42KT: Whoever she ends up with, but I personally am rooting for Nathan and Issa. Cool.

54:49Oti: It's been noted.

54:50KT: It's been noted and marked against my record apparently. The two last characters that I wanna focus on oh, is there anything else you wanna say about Asian Bae?

55:01Oti: No.

55:03KT: I I guess credit to the team at Insecure. You know, a lot of Asian sort of portrayal is that nerdy sort of guy, and that's kind of the only variety that Asian guys come in. So it's nice to have Asian bae as as The bae variety.

55:03Oti: It sounds like you're saying beaver.

55:23Oti: Could walk both ways.

55:25KT: But it's nice to see different dimensions of Asian men and that was done through Insecure. So that's definitely most welcome in the For Your Reference household. And we already talked about Andrew a little bit when we were talking about And he kind of exists because of Molly. So I kind of want just for even though it's not a real person, for Andrew's sense of self, for his own mental health, I hope he doesn't come back into this show. Because

55:51Oti: no. Because he knows what he deserves and what he's not got what shit he's not going to tolerate. Maybe this is opportunity we've been yearning for the whole sort of four seasons for Molly to grow as a character, and maybe Andrew is that reason. So keep him in so we can see Molly be something different. I agree. I definitely agree.

56:11KT: Andrew, that type of guy, that type of partner is exactly what Molly needs in order for her to be more balanced and more whole as a person. Not to say another person makes you whole, but in order to grow, you know, who you are with helps mold who you are. And Andrew would definitely be the one for her. However, she is in in denial about everything. So, like, I I'm glad that Andrew has respect for himself and he's like, no, you can fuck off. Right? I think he was more patient than many other

56:46KT: men, women, non binary would be, but there you go. I fucking love Alexander Hodge and I will continue to follow him in his career. He was also in Tommy with Edie Falco for, like, two episodes, I think. So I will always follow him, but please don't put him in this show. Unless unless Molly is going to do a full three sixty, I won't even question the character development. Let's have let's have a a Molly that not even a perfect Molly, just someone that acknowledges

57:14KT: has any sort of sense of self awareness. I would like that. But let's finish off with two characters with Kelly and also Tiffany. Tiffany is probably we'll finish off last week, but let's talk about Kelly for a little bit. Kelly, Natasha Rothwell steals the fucking scene every time she is featured in an episode. She ad libs mostly everything. Her GIFs are the best GIFs to use in all of the GIFs. That's a Office reference. Oh, wow. But also, Kelly is the most solid friend in this series.

57:49KT: We saw her get hurt because Tiffany didn't ask her to help with the baby shower at all. And you saw the fragmenting of their relationship and their friendship. She also helped Issa when Issa was trying to figure out her finances, but Issa didn't have any finances. Like, Kelly is so self assured. She's so you know, she gets fingered at a diner. Molly also got fingered in this season, but, you know, it wasn't as funny. Like, the the the best fingerings are the funniest ones. But Kelly is successful in her career. She's messy.

58:20KT: She's rolled around with guys in graveyards. She is the best fucking character on this show. She minds her business, and she's she she has more dimension than the usual sort of comic relief would have. For sure. Her and Ahmal, Issa's brother, their dynamic together is fucking ace.

58:38Oti: When she was pretending to be British.

58:42KT: Like, how did you see that panning out, Kelly? How did you see that panning out? But what I love about Kelly is she's funny, she's vivacious, she's effervescent, but she also has core to her. She has substance to her. Right? You know, when you think about, oh, yeah, that person's funny, but it's like, no. She's actually a solid person. Yeah. She's someone you can rely on. She's someone you can count on. Even in the last episode,

59:05KT: we have her getting pissed off at Derek. And she's like, woah, woah, hey, hang off Derek for a bit even though she's the one that cussed him out. Yeah. Right? So I I don't think we spent enough time talking about Kelly in our first episode. So I definitely wanted to give a shout out to Kelly.

59:19Oti: Well deserved. Yeah. Growth as

59:22KT: she said. But let's talk a little bit about Tiffany. They

59:26Oti: introduced well, we we sort of knew that she was struggling to have she was struggling with the baby. Yep. They had mentioned it. It was a bit I thought that was it and done, but this season, they took it all the way there in which we see her fully leaving the house and going just to take a break from it all and not especially knowing what to tell the partner Yeah. Which is kind of sad. I don't think you it really got you that emotional

59:51Oti: or how I'll explain why. Continue. Go for it. Go for it.

59:56KT: I personally felt like the writers wanted to have a tantalizing finale. So they plucked this story, not necessarily out of nowhere because there were definitely hints of the fact that she was struggling as a mother. But I felt like if you're going to have a story about deep pain, you know, postpartum depression,

60:18KT: you can't do that in a twenty minute episode. And even then, it wasn't the whole episode. It was most of it, but it was 10, maybe 15, not even 15 because they had maybe four other scenes aside from this main story. So they had 10, less than fifteen minutes of deep emotional pain. You know, we speak about frame of reference a lot on our podcast and I am not a mother. So I haven't given birth and to a further extent, I haven't experienced postpartum depression.

60:47KT: So what would have been helpful for me to understand the pain was to actually go through it and experience it with her. Right? I, you know, I I can read articles. I can watch interviews, but that doesn't really

61:01KT: hit home to me specifically in regards to Tiffany. You know, we we talked about the wind down earlier. Amanda Seales about how she tried to let her nails grow out because Tiffany was very put together. Yeah. Throughout the whole series, she was a bougie friend. Mhmm. Right? And, you know, even with her photoshoot with her being pregnant, which Amanda Seales, I think she tried to keep those as well. You know, we have some real fucking moments of Tiffany, but I feel like this show doesn't really

61:29KT: it doesn't really delve beneath the surface of what it presents. You know, even the sense of Nathan as well, I feel like they could have dived deeper into that. If Nathan is in the next season, maybe we will see more of that. I think this show is good in, you know, portraying what it's like. But in regards to the excruciating pain, like, the level of intensity of pain, I don't feel like that's done very well in Insecure specifically.

61:57Oti: Yeah. Maybe and hopefully, was just them opening the door for them to further explore this in season five. Because definitely, Tiffany would see her back, and her story hopefully is not done with that.

61:57KT: I think that's also a problem. Issa, please don't listen to the rest of this.

62:14KT: I think part of the problem that I have with Insecure as well is they don't really flesh out the characters beyond what you need to see. You know, if we're if we're shining a spotlight in the castle of Insecure, they only develop the characters within the frame. Nothing else behind us. Right? That reminded me of Teddy Perkins. Bring Atlanta back. But if if you think about it, Kelly and Tiffany have been in Insecure for four seasons now. What do we know about them? Oh my. What drives them? Right?

62:48KT: And the only way that we've seen more about Tiffany is because Condola worked with her. You know what I mean? Like, we're only seeing what's extended because of the main sort of stories. And maybe this is me just getting pissed off with Molly and wanting to see other people, but I feel like Insecure can do better with exploring the other characters that we've known for years. Yeah. Because we don't even see Ahmal that much, to be perfectly honest. But again, I guess it's also because it's in twenty minute episodes. Actually,

63:16KT: let's talk about this. Is there anything else you wanna say about

63:16Oti: No.

63:16KT: Okay. Let's end on this note. It seems to be a very contentious sort of issue that Issa and Prentice specifically have addressed many times because people get pissed off with Insecure because it's so good and they love it so much. And everyone asks for hour long episodes or at least forty minutes to be, you know, reasonable.

63:37KT: How do you feel about that? Obviously, can do whatever they want, but what do you think like, because we're talking about, you know, the depth of character and how there's a lack of that and we don't get to explore. Do you think that would help?

63:50Oti: It would help, but then it will change the dynamic of the show altogether. I think I just appreciate it for what it is now. Leave it as twenty minutes, whatever it is, but can't really imagine it being an hour long and how that would work. The interesting thing is Twenties is about twenty minutes long as well. Right? But we But I feel like it's done better. It's done better in terms of character development because we get to see the three friends complete

64:17Oti: like, we get to see what their lives is about. It must be lot better. Group or outside Yeah. Outside of what's the main character's name? Hattie? Hattie? Hattie. Yeah. Like, outside of Hattie, who are they? Yeah. And outside of Issa, we don't really know what Natasha or Tiffany and Kelly. Kelly are.

64:36KT: Yeah. It's interesting. Right? Because they they're also twenty minutes, but I feel like they they round the characters out. Because it is Hattie. Hattie is the protagonist of Twenties, but it everyone else in this story has a story. Yeah. Because Even Big Sean has a story. So if Big Sean can have a story, then, you know, we we've got some work to do. So it's not about

64:59Oti: the amount of time you give it. It's not about it being an hour long. Because clearly, Twenties have the same amount of time as Insecure, and they are getting a lot more done character development wise.

65:11KT: Interesting. And I would hate to be the person to pin two black led shows against each other. I just wanted like, it just came to mind that they both have, you know, people in the young sort of working sort of relationships, and it just feels like it's done better. But, you know, I I don't wanna pin two black shows against each other. But yeah. Interesting.

65:35KT: Interesting. Because people keep saying, I want an hour of Insecure. But, you know, if you give it an hour and and Molly is still gonna be the same in season twenty of Insecure, then what are we here for?

65:46Oti: What are we doing here? Yeah. I appreciate it for what it is right now. I really can't imagine it in any other fashion, to be honest.

65:54KT: I liked how they because everyone loves true crime. You know? Everyone and their Bates Motel mother, Vera Farmiga, loves a true crime. Right? And everyone loves a mystery. One of the funniest moments about the Looking for LaToya show or documentary was when the police came out and he started talking a Toyota. And they're like, so we are talking about LaToya. Do you have any information about LaToya? But this is also another example where entertainment

66:26KT: and media is so important. And it is okay to have social commentary and to have tangible sort of roots in reality. Like I mentioned at the start of the episode, they do link to a not for profit that does help to find missing people. Yeah. That's really cool. So I love that. And, you know, Issa is is definitely no stranger to audio series as well. And, you know, that that's my Issa love fest, which is going to end until season five, which

66:54KT: we're not sure when we're going to see it. Prentice joked about seeing everyone in 2059 for season five. So I guess we'll reconvene Mhmm. At an undisclosed location and also time. So we're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. So let me just remind you, Oti, on what we referenced in our initial Insecure episode, and you can decide whether you wanna add on to that or if it's okay. You referenced Atlanta. Mhmm. I referenced Awkward Black Girl and 30 Rock.

67:26Oti: I'd keep Atlanta in there, and I'd also add Twenties.

67:30KT: Yes. Come through with the Twenties. So that's it, guys. Thank you so much. Secure yourselves if you're feeling insecure. On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.