Happiest Season – Harper on one string

Full transcript of Happiest Season – Harper on one string.

0:00KT: December greetings, friends and lovers. We are starting off with a very festive Unguess Me on the count of three Oti. This is a callback, as the kids like to say, to our first Christmas episode last year. Is It's a Wonderful Life a Christmas film? Three, two, one.

0:00Oti: Yes.

0:00KT: Absolutely fucking not. You're ridiculous. Go and check out It's a Wonderful Life episode for all the closed mouth mama kisses and whacking kids in the face. Now let's get on with the show.

1:04KT: Festive feelings, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, Katie. And Oti. Deck the halls with pet fish and deceit as we thoughtfully discuss Happiest Season in our curated audio experience. Wanker. I'm a festive wanker if you nasty. Welcome welcome welcome new and old friends and lovers of the podcast we are starting off with the stats Oti we are still in the hell that is 2020 This film recently released. If you are listening in future time, this film was released in November 2020.

1:47KT: Fortunately for us in Australia, it was released in theaters was is it's still going on Hulu in The US and Amazon in The UK we have director co writer Clea DuVall Mhmm. And I think you are familiar with her. Let me just quickly show you a photo.

2:10Oti: Secret agent in Veep.

2:12KT: Well, there you go. That's a reference, if you'll pardon the reference.

2:15Oti: Yeah. I love a good Selina.

2:20KT: Oh, so that is the Selina you know? Yeah.

2:23Oti: Okay.

2:25KT: Can I put you on blast for a second? Go on. Oti wasn't aware of Jennifer Lopez's performance that everyone knows her for.

2:37Oti: Oh, and that is Selena.

2:39KT: Alright? Tell tell our most beloved friends and lovers where you first saw J.Lo.

2:45Oti: In a movie, it was either Gigli or Enough. Either between those two.

2:54KT: Okay. Well, behind the podcast curtain, you said to me yesterday it was the one with Ben Affleck. Gigli.

2:58Oti: So Gigli.

2:59KT: Yeah. Let's just make it very clear. If if there are any sort of film credentials that we have, mine are separate to Oti. So please deduct all of his credentials away.

3:10Oti: Didn't know J.Lo did the Selena at all. He kept on talking about it all the all the time. I was like, come on, mate. Doesn't ring a bell.

3:10KT: Well, there you go. If Oti ever says something that doesn't make sense, always refer back to the sound bite, friends and lovers.

3:28KT: The film that we are talking about today was co written by Mary Holland who plays Jane in the movie. Interesting. We'll definitely talk about the characters. We have actors Kristen Stewart go and check out our Twilight episode look at us covering Kristen Stewart twice in a yeah oh wow Mackenzie Davis who is Yorkie from San Junipero if you guys are aware of Black Mirror. And we also have Mary Steenburgen. Mhmm. I fucking love her. Obviously, we'll get into the show, but Mary in particular, you know, she does say some very potentially

4:12KT: venomous things. But because she's such a fun gal around the town, I didn't take it to the offense that maybe others might have. We also have Victor Garber. And I guess while we're here, Dan motherfucking Levy. Mhmm. You know, we always say the mark of a good podcast episode is referencing 30 Rock. There was an episode about SeinfeldVision and about how NBC was trying to make more money and get more viewership so they would insert Jerry Seinfeld into shows randomly. And I want Levy Vision. I want Dan Levy in everything I watch, please.

4:53Oti: Yep. Exactly. He's just

4:58KT: Without context, just just have him pop up in something.

5:01Oti: Mhmm. A 100%.

5:03KT: This film is also pioneering in the sense that we have LGBT same sex couple led for a Christmas film that's being backed by a studio network. Nice so exciting very exciting but I guess it also falls into the dialogue and we will get into that dialogue of you know it's important that it falls into even queer cinematic landscape, but does that mean we don't give it any sort of criticism?

5:38Oti: I don't think there are any criticisms to be had, to be honest.

5:45KT: But we we'll get more into the discussions as we go on in the episode. Just in case we run out of time, shout outs to me for being that annoying straight person that watches RuPaul's Drag Race, and I wanna find a reason to accolade myself, I noticed BenDeLaCreme in the gay bar. And also shout out to Jinkx Monsoon as well because we do love a drag queen in the For Your Reference household. Mhmm. Dutch or otherwise. So lots and lots of stuff to get into.

6:21KT: I think we've mentioned it before. We're not really a Christmas movie household. I personally as much as I love Christmas and it's the only time that I show any sort of affection, I actually don't care for Christmas movies. I always found them really cheesy, and they're not really something that I find my anchorage to. We do have a yearly tradition in the For Your Reference household of watching Christmas episodes of TV shows that we love, and it is great. We have some boozy sangria, and we forget what day it is until New Year's. So,

7:00KT: yeah, I I don't think I I look back fondly on Christmas movies, but I do like that I watch this. Aside from the heightened aggravated points and specifically characters, I I do feel that I will, you know, look back in some cases fondly on this watching experience.

7:25Oti: Yeah. Me too. I remember I was starting to watch it, and it captivated me immediately. I think during the season, like, you get into this sort of mood. And the fact that it was sort of different, we're talking about queer relationships, and we don't really see that in Christmas movies. Yeah. So I, for one, was fully bought in, and I think the only reason we watched this or at least put our bums on the seat was Dan Levy. Because I saw Dan Levy on the poster, was like, for sure, we're gonna watch it. Yeah.

7:57KT: I I should definitely share it on our socials. You sent me a screenshot of the movie poster, like a serial killer. You circled his face with no context. You just sent me that photo, and immediately, I understood exactly what you were trying to tell me. Mhmm. Okay. Well, let's get into first impressions. You know, you've already expressed your love for Clea DuVall, but also I will give you some Game of Thrones shame for not knowing who Selena is and for bringing up J.Lo and Ben Affleck in the same sentence.

8:32KT: Who do think you are? Butters from South Park? Mhmm. So let's let's talk about it. Again, it is great to see queer storylines be at the forefront. In our most recent episode before this, we talked a little bit about Schitt's Creek. We mentioned Schitt's Creek when we were talking about I May Destroy You and how Dan Levy tackled, you know, queer relationships in Schitt's Creek, and it didn't focus on that traumatic sort of story.

9:08KT: Not to say it doesn't exist, but it just didn't have a place in Schitt's Creek. Right? And it's something that you got used to, but we definitely felt the pain in this movie. But as we go into the first impressions, Oti, I guess the question I have for you is, do you think this is a comedy? Do you think this is a drama? What do you think this where do you think this falls into?

9:33Oti: I think it falls a little bit in column a and column b it's both a comedy and a drama

9:41KT: commit that's your problem my love commit I think at the crux of it you kept reminding me this is a Christmas movie, and everything fell at the altar of Christmas, whether it be cohesive, consistent, understandable character development, you know, emotional investment, return on that emotional investment, all of that fell to the wayside because the genre ultimately is a Christmas movie because if anything it did feel like a drama but because it was a Christmas movie it needed to sweep up those you know corners as well

10:29Oti: It needed to lessen the mood at heavy points in the movie, and I remember you getting frustrated.

10:37KT: Totally. Be in the moment.

10:40Oti: I'm like, come on now. This is a Christmas movie at the core of it. Yeah it has to be light it has to be fun and it has to at least have a happy ending

10:40KT: tonally I had an issue with it and I want to talk about story structure but let's let's finish off our first impressions

10:57Oti: Oh, I just enjoyed it through and through. I saw it like I said, I I saw it on the poster, and you all was gonna love it. I don't hate on Kristen Stewart. Think she's great. Dan Levy is in it. It was just a no brainer.

11:10KT: Okay. Welcome to the real corner of For Your Reference. You know, first impressions are also to lay our frame of reference. If you have been a purveyor of our podcast for almost two years you may have heard you know some personal stories especially about you know our relationship as well and I guess I just want to lay this here because I do have many qualm. All of my remaining qualm balance is going to be spent in this episode in the direction of Harper's character. You know, not to equate,

11:54KT: you know, the the struggles that we've had in our interracial relationship to a queer relationship, but I will say, you know, in a very real sense, you do have to choose. You know? And and and maybe it means your family come around, but you do need to extend yourself and you do need to choose, whether it's, you know, going back to who you were as a kid and the way that the family know you or standing up for who you love and who you are.

12:28KT: My sense of self and my life is my life, and that includes my love life. And I don't care for, I don't have patience for people, but I guess in this case, characters that fall to the whimsy of the world that's around them. Surely, there's a lot that you can't control, you know, whether your family are very conservative or whether they have particular views or whether founded or not, they will shun you out. But at the end of the day, you are making a choice. And and the the hurt that you're inflicting on Abby

13:08KT: can't be explained away just because, you know, Harper and Abby, they they're old enough to be in in a scenario where they can choose. I think it was in the Chi episode when we were talking about Jerrika and Brandon. You know, you get to a particular age in your life where any ignorances that your parents had become your own. Like, you get to an age where that agency, you chose to take that on. And I don't care for people that hide behind it or make excuses.

13:38KT: No. You're at an age now where you chose to do that. And I guess spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, I don't think I've ever said spoiler, spoiler, spoiler when I'm angry. But splooshes, splooshes, splooshes in the directions of Abby and also John in this movie. But we see a lot of things in regards to Harper's character, specifically in regards to Riley, where it kind of solidifies how you might be feeling about Harper as a character. And I I guess the main thing I wanted to mention in this first impression is I did not care

14:20KT: for her attitude and and how everything just it was all for her, and there was no room for anyone else. And if that's the case, then that's the case. But don't try and blame it on your parents is what I'm saying.

14:34Oti: I don't know. I sort of don't agree with you in that regard because we have our very own Dan Levy coming in and it's

14:39KT: Stop. Is he going to save this movie? You're just gonna bring him up and give us some reprieve?

14:39Oti: Yeah. Of course. Like our very own Dan Levy said.

14:51Oti: Yes. Everyone has their own experiences in how they wanna come out. Yeah. It's not about the partner they're with. It's about themselves. It's it's because once you see that, there's no coming back from it. It's a completely new chapter, and you have no control over it. So you can get at least you can understand some hesitancy, and you just have to give them time. Whether or not you're ready for to be with someone who's not comfortable to come out yet, I reckon it's just a matter of trusting that they will be ready and just hoping that they do come out eventually.

15:20KT: But there was a lot of hurt on Abby's side There was a lot of Harper was trying to get her shit together. And, you know, Abby even mentioned, I wanna be with someone who is ready. And if there were ever to be a For Your Reference board game, what would trump a Dan Levy is a Jody Tyrese Gibson.

15:50KT: I I I implore you, sir, to think back on our Baby Boy episode because I had problems with Jody Tyrese's character in Baby Boy, particularly because he had so much insecurity. He had so much iniquity that he felt within himself, but he projected it on Taraji P. Henson's character. So I I I laid the sentiment in Baby Boy. Yes. I'm fucking referencing Baby Boy in 2020. Come and love me. Don't fight me. But what I'm saying about this is, you know, Taraji P. Henson's character had to wait around

16:32KT: and be hurt and continue to be hurt by Tyrese's character until he got his shit together. And I will reference that back to Harper. Why does Abby have to continue to get hurt just because Harper doesn't have all of his shit together?

16:49Oti: True. It wasn't fair. I'm and I'm not trying to defend I'm not trying to defend Harper at all. It's just a matter of understanding that she has to be comfortable in coming out. And if she's not, fair enough. Whether or not Abby wants to sit with someone who's still in the closet, that's up to her. And you can't bring you can't bring Jody, Tyrese in here and not talk about it it was more it was more systemic. Like I said in the episode, John Singleton put a lot of meaning and thought into it on who Jody portrayed.

17:22KT: Oh, no.

17:24Oti: Just it doesn't trump Dan Levy here, man. I love you, sweet pea.

17:31KT: Gaming companies, please reach out for the For Your Reference podcast. That is a tasting morsel of what the game will look like. And, yes, Baby Boy would trump Dan Levy. If I ever get canceled, it's probably going to be because of that sound bite. So let's get into the themes of the movie or film, I guess, however you wanna see it. I wanna talk about the story structure and we've kind of teetered on it already. It was yeah. It started off, you know, from the perspective of their relationship.

18:10KT: Even at the start, I kind of had an issue. And let's just talk about it because, you know, we love a strong foundation in the For Your Reference podcast. And they had that montage, that the animation sort of montage at the start of the movie, and that was kind of to fill the gaps of their relationship and how they're moving and they're falling deeper into love and really you know setting down roots for a life together even to the point where they move in together

18:42KT: Mhmm. Right? So the so we see all of that through the sequence. But I would say to take us on a journey where, unfortunately, after all of the bullshit that we've been through, all Harper induced, by the way, it's not the the foundation wasn't strong enough to carry us where we needed to go. You understand me? We didn't really get to see why they even loved each other. We barely understood them as characters. What made them their heartbeat in the morning? It was kinda like they were just plunked together,

19:22KT: and then they go through all of this unnecessary bullshit in my opinion. Like, there was so much hurt that was hurdled in Abby's way, which I felt she didn't even need to deal with, but that's also a failure on setting the foundation of their relationship. You see what I'm saying? Like, if they had that formidable love, maybe not akin to Denzel and Viola Davis and Fences, but if they had a formidable love,

19:55KT: then, you know, we're moving along the journey with them of them trying to conquer all. You see what I'm saying? But we only really got that animation montage at the start and then them giggle gaggling on the top of someone's roof and then her falling into an inflatable snowman. So I really don't feel like they set the foundation strong enough for me to even care that they should be a couple.

20:22Oti: Wow. Wow. I didn't find a problem with that. Like, mate, you're coming you're coming at from all angles on a Christmas movie. I understood the role the montage played. Mhmm. And I took it that, you know, we saw them progressing in their relationship,

20:39Oti: something at least they put an effort in showing us that Yeah. Rather than just dumping us into the middle of them being fully committed to each other where Kristen Stewart is ready to propose. Yeah. So I I I took that. I accepted that. I was like, cool. Now there's two lovebirds who seemingly love each other.

20:39KT: That's a Issa Rae Kumail Nanjiani trademark. How dare you? I'd forgotten about that. I fucking love that movie. Your favorite movie of 2020. Watch out for my reference.

21:12Oti: And I fully bought into them being as a couple.

21:17KT: But what I'm saying is, did you even care that they got back together after they had broken up in the last forty minutes? They really didn't even break up like it. It was a very disorienting forty minutes by the way. Like all of it all of the pain happened and came to a crescendo. But then the next morning, they were cuddling and opening presents together.

21:37Oti: Yeah. It was it was the character development was swift and with purpose.

21:45KT: Was that a half assed Deadwood quote? It's been a while since we referenced Deadwood, so thank you. You're welcome.

21:53Oti: But I think there's just wasn't enough time to play around with those dynamic in the movie. And by the time we reached to that point, it was just now a matter of closing everything up into a neat tiny ball that is a Christmas movie. Yeah. And when Abby was leaving Yeah. With John Mhmm. Just call him Dan Levy. It's fine. Yeah. I'll struggle, Charles. Like, what the fuck is this character's name? When I was living with Dan Levy, and I was like and you were getting really frustrated. You're like, yeah. Go. Go. Leave now.

22:26Oti: Break out. And I am telling you. Only to remind you, hey. It's a Christmas movie. I know. Remember? I know. It has to have a happy ending. Otherwise, even the Grinch had a fucking happy ending, mate. Did it spoiler? Oh, shit. Well, it's not necessarily a spoiler. Maybe he ended up in a massage parlor.

22:47KT: You don't know. Wow. Yeah. It could happen. The Grinch takes an inch. Yeah. You're ridiculous. Watch out for our Christmas twenty twenty one merch.

23:02Oti: For sure. Wow. There's a there's a structure to these movies, and they don't deviate. There's a formula. There is.

23:11KT: I wouldn't say there's a structure, but it's all semantics. Right?

23:14Oti: It is. Structure v formula, you end up with this. Okay. Which works, you know. It's it's it's a tested method. And I remember growing up and we used to watch a lot of sort of Christmas movies. Yeah. And we always ended up watching It's a Wonderful Life. Yeah. We know. Go and listen to the episode again, friends and lovers. I know. I know. And I'm planning on making this year the fifty seventh time I've watched it.

23:38KT: So Wow. You're revealing your age. How brave.

23:45Oti: But it just works for me. Okay. And and I think every other person sitting around with their families, watching this movie, it's just puts you in that spirit. Yeah. That's the purpose. That's the main purpose. It's not it's not to get some weird messaging in. You know? It's just about putting you in a Christmas spirit, and that's the purpose that's the function and that's what you go in expecting and that's what that's what gets delivered

24:12KT: I don't know may maybe this is why I don't like Christmas movies because I don't like the idea of being around people whether it be my family when we know we fucking hate each other. Like, I don't care for that facade. Right? And Doctor Oti, thank you for being my therapist. That was about part of the problem that I had with this movie, and maybe that's the problem I have with Christmas movies. Because like you said, we were working towards a happy ending. You know, even with the circumstances with Ted, Victor Garber, who we fucking love,

24:47KT: go and listen to our power episode, he had that call at the end of the movie where Harry called him, and she's like, oh, yeah. I'll back you, but your daughter needs to live a private life. And then he comes back and talks to Tipper, and he's like, nah. It's not gonna work out. Oh, okay. So his ignorances and his decades of of of, you know, trying to keep a perfect sort of image has des dissipated because Christmas.

25:17Oti: Not because Christmas, because he's seen what he's done to his family. Oh, come on. And and Tipper said the same thing. We tried to be perfect. We tried too hard maintaining this perfect facade. Do you arrive at that minute, hours after? Well, it just doesn't matter to me at this stage because how quick they come to a resolution is not the issue the issue is at least he comes to a resolution

25:46KT: boo but sometimes they never will I this is a reference special I I will reference The Boys with Butcher without spoiling too much of season two. We we encounter Butcher's father, and there's a moment where they have an exchange. And, you know, any hopeful sort of viewer, so Oti and the rest of the world, you know, maybe not yearning for, but wouldn't be surprised if there was a happy sort of resolve at the end of that conversation, but it wasn't. He was still a shit garbage can of a person.

26:24KT: And sometimes that's a good way to portray it because as as much as you want the people you love to not be terrible or ignorant in any sort of way, it doesn't necessarily negate that just because we've got yuletide cheer.

26:41Oti: True. But then again, The Boys are coming at the aspect of human nature at a completely different angle than this is.

26:41KT: Yeah. But the themes are universal. Movie wanker.

26:56KT: Oti Bamba. But

26:59Oti: it's just ridiculous. This is where you're pinning your hopes on because at least for me, I know it's not the speed or how you get there. It's all about the resolution, how that makes you feel. Coming out of the cinema, you know, you're feeling all cheered up and

27:17KT: pet peeve. All on a throne of lies. Why would you want that?

27:17Oti: Because life is a lie, mate. Damn, Tom.

27:17KT: Okay, sir. Since you are the lover of all that is festive, did you think that pacing was potentially a problem in this movie?

27:17Oti: Not really.

27:17KT: Boo.

27:37Oti: What issues did you have, ma'am? Okay, dude.

27:42KT: Go and listen to Alabaski episode. You even mentioned at the start, it all felt a bit haphazard, but it's just we're covering it with the band aid of Christmas.

27:54Oti: Christmas covers all meat.

27:56KT: Suppose. Let's move into, I guess, even more of what we're talking about. I wanna talk about the relationship dynamic between Harper and Abby. Also, in regards to the story structure, just as an additional discussion point, the story is about Harper, but the main character is Abby. So that was a weird approach to the story because if you think about it, Abby doesn't really have things like, things happen to her. You see what I'm saying? There wasn't necessarily

28:34KT: a an arc for her. There wasn't really any sort of development for her as a character. She was just the unfortunate you know, she she was in the proximity of Harper's shrapnel. Right? So with the relationship dynamic, I also wanna talk about how, you know, Abby emotionally, mentally, physically, she gave everything to the relationship, even to the point where she didn't even get to offer her own emotions. She didn't even get to express herself. Even when she in in in the few occasions that she tried to express herself,

29:16KT: Harper would make it about her. Mhmm. Right? And then we also have the example of Harper, you know, wanting to continue to hang out with her friends and also not telling Abby about Connor, which might not even be a problem, but she didn't feel the need to mention it, which is the problem. Mhmm.

29:35Oti: Oh, I felt that Abby found someone in Harper that she really, really, really loved and Harper too. You know? It's it felt symbiotic in the feeling, but the caveat the caveat was just that Harper was still in the closet with the parents. And they took us to this weird journey where we get to see Harper's life through Abby and how all everything transpires.

30:01Oti: You know. And we all feel sad for Abby because no one wants to be in that situation at all. Yeah. And I remember me multiple times telling you that if that was me, I would have just left. Yeah. You know, not necessarily even break up, just leave that situation and get myself out of that sort of environment

30:20KT: yeah because at the end of the day nothing feels worse than being in a place where you're not wanted and the the person that's supposed to love you doesn't even stand up for you And and them holding up a facade is more important than your feelings

30:35Oti: You know what I'm a

30:35KT: your existence.

30:35Oti: You know what I'm a qualm was with this though? That, yes, these two apparently love each other, but I get it that she's there as your friend, but she ignored her completely. Like Yeah. She just hang hang around with with the friends.

30:54KT: Like, she's in a new town. She doesn't know anyone. She came here for you. And I think it was the first night. That's when they went out. It was ridiculous. I just didn't understand why they did that. Well, you know what? At the end of the day, I do believe Harper loves Harper. Like, I don't think it even matters who the person is. She just wants attention, and she wants to feel like the prettiest gal in

31:20Oti: Self love is key, mate.

31:23KT: Yeah. But to the point where you're in a relationship and the other person's not feeling what they should be feeling or what they deserve to feel?

31:30Oti: I feel like she was so scared of anyone getting an inkling as to her being queer that she just completely shut herself off and put Abby at an at an arm's length, which isn't fair to Abby, but it's not to say that Harper doesn't whole have any sort of feelings. It's just a matter of her her insecurities and fear.

31:54KT: Yeah. But that's dangerous. Like, she's doing this to someone she loves. Wouldn't it be better if she was like an unfeeling psycho and she did this just without feeling anything? So you're saying she feels something and she's doing this maliciously to someone she loves. That's worse.

32:11Oti: Not maliciously. Again, insecurities and fear can play a big part into how people behave.

32:13KT: Yeah. But then the person you love is the one that loses out every single time.

32:23Oti: True.

32:24KT: So deal with your shit is what I'm saying.

32:24Oti: It's not as easy as that, though.

32:24KT: And okay. So we're living within the world that is established for us. As far as we can see, it's not a dated movie. It is within the present sort of sphere of time. Right? And we have Ted's character who is running to be mayor. And, you know, there there's a lot of talk about trying to be perfect and gaining donations and, you know, how how it becomes more about appearances

32:59KT: because we didn't really focus on what he was hoping to implement as a mayor. It was more about the appearances. Right? How in this current age can your child being gay be more detrimental to the existing and probably not the last cheating on your wives, sending wiener pics twice, and the wife twice. And the wife at the press conference. Like, how can there be so much evidence of political disarray that, like, your child being gay is going to tear everything apart? And what I will say to this town, they had a gay bar.

33:51KT: So I don't know how small this town was, but it would hopefully mean that a mayor would be okay to support a child because, you know, in in in many towns, especially if they're small towns, probably won't even have a gay bar. You see what I'm saying? So I don't know. It it just felt like a bit of a folly that that was the crux of why she didn't do it.

34:20Oti: I reckon it's more than that in terms of half true at least she's spent her whole life competing for for love from their parents, competing with the sisters Which, you know just for their attention and love.

34:33KT: Some level, all of us can relate to. I get that.

34:40Oti: So she was scared of losing that, something that she's fought so hard to get. You know? Being seen seen as a reliable one, being seen as the most successful or important. You know, all these vanity things, she enjoyed getting it from her parents. So the fact that there's this aspect of her where she didn't know her parents would agree or laugh about, I can see why she was scared.

35:09KT: Yeah. But at the same time, you get to a certain age, stop blaming your parents for shit. Your parents can fuck you up, as we say many, many times, but you need to you need to own what you carry from that as well. True. Alright. Let's move on to another theme, but it is it is just as Harper Venomous, and I've called this theme deception. Okay. So I wanna talk about Riley because that's the first sort of inkling that we hear about Harper having a girlfriend. Her

35:50KT: not whether she saw it as important, whether she was scared, her not coming out to her parents and, you know, pretty much pulling over the car. It made it seem as though they were close to the house. So they had been traveling, and she just waited to the last possible moment to tell Abby, hey. I haven't come out to my parents. But then she also further extends that by asking a lot, I would say too much of Abby, to pretend that she's straight.

36:20Oti: Mhmm.

36:21KT: And then also Connor and that I would say that's deceptive because I don't think there was anything to hide, but the fact that she didn't say anything, you know, reveals a lot more.

36:31Oti: It does. I didn't appreciate that fact. She definitely told Abby sooner Yeah. That she hadn't told her parents about it, then Abby can have a choice of, yeah. I might not go with you. Yeah. Because she had a whole thing planned, you know, go and get permission from her father to to marry her. Mhmm. You know? So I understand I understand the the deception

36:55Oti: aspect of that, you know, telling her when you're halfway there, she doesn't really have a choice. Yeah. Exactly. Where the fuck will she get out of and go? You know? She can't really. So it's just a matter of, yeah, I'll tell her we're that close so she can just follow along.

37:10KT: But do you see how small Abby has to make herself just to be okay with them as a couple?

37:18Oti: Mhmm.

37:19KT: I think I think part of the problem that this movie and this story has is, I guess, the realism that they wanted to bring. But on the other hand, it's all being swept away with Christmas cheer. So it it it becomes hard to reconcile because with Harper's character, super malicious. Like, let let's just focus on her and Riley. Malicious.

37:47Oti: Super malicious. Dear, Lonnie, you'd not even think we're talking about a Christmas movie at this point.

37:54KT: I think our It's a Wonderful Life was a happier episode as well. Dear lord. Well, this is how they chose to do the movie, and this is how we're gonna fucking discuss it. I wanna focus on Riley for a second. The first time that we're introduced to Riley is when Harper and Abby are coming out of the bathroom, and it seemed like there was some sort of discussion. So it wasn't like Connor where he didn't exist. There was some sort of conversation about Harper being in a relationship with Riley. But as

38:30KT: Abby and Riley were in the gay bar, you know, Riley is very nice about it. She's very amicable because she said there are a few things that Harper didn't mention. But one of those things, which is a fucking whopper of a thing, was she completely denied that they were a couple when someone found their love letters. How okay. You know, we we talked about it in our previous episode about the prefrontal cortex not being fully developed. So there need to be some graces to be given. So during

39:08KT: yes. I am learned, and I will give graces where I can, Oti. So she was in school age, there's peer pressure. You can't fully be yourself, especially if you're queer in school. Okay. But to understand, to to warrant those feelings for yourself and understand how scary that can be, how then, your girlfriend at the time, how then do you not only alleviate the pressure from you, but dump that double on someone that apparently you love? So

39:51KT: again, she's a teenager. Fine. We can give graces, but we've all watched 13 Reasons Why and how detrimental that can be. It was sarcastic in the the subject matter of 13 Reasons Why is important, but the delivery is more what I was speaking to. But my point is that can be a traumatic experience for Riley again because you said we're swept up in the photoshop of Christmas you know Riley seems to be okay or she has moved on from it but that can fuck someone up viscerally

40:29KT: but let's ignore that because apparently that's what we're doing in this movie let's ignore that right yeah she did the same fucking thing as an adult to Abby

40:39Oti: Yeah. Yeah. She's not the best person. I think she's just caught up in her in her fears too much. Mhmm. And when she did that when Riley said that, I was like, fuck. That's some heavy shit. Yeah. And they never brought it up again, which is understandable because you really don't want to be to start peeling that sort of onion in this movie.

41:03KT: Yeah. Go on. You know what? You keep saying that I'm making this Christmas movie episode sad, but listen to our Shrek episode because Oti is a sad ogre in that episode.

41:14Oti: Oh, wow. So is it tit for tat?

41:17KT: It's tit for tit around here. Okay.

41:21Oti: At least you've got a Black Sails reference in there.

41:25KT: I would like to quote my best friend India.Arie that follows me on my personal Twitter, by the way. You have to be ready for love, Oti. Mhmm. That is the crux of this whole, you know, mimicry that we have going on. cockamamie mimicry, as said by Katie in 2020. You have to be ready for love and if you're not ready for love not to say that you're not deserving of it but be aware that you might not be able to reciprocate to the capacity that someone deserves

41:59KT: but I'm speaking from a very earnest point of view and I don't think Harper is capable of that I said it in the I May Destroy You episode if you've watched I May Destroy You Terry was the character that I was talking about Harper needs to go in the garbage. You don't need to recycle her because she's good for no one. Just full in the garbage into landfill.

42:22Oti: Wow. Yeah. Man, I feel like you're watching Happiest Season Moonlight edition. Jesus Christ.

42:32KT: You know what, Oti? You're the fucking problem.

42:32Oti: Oh, really?

42:32KT: Yes. Because I'm talking about some real life shit, and you keep trying to sweep your Christmas broom here. Unless it's Angela Bassett and Jumping the Broom, I don't care for it. Wow. Oh, speaking of Angela Bassett, did you think that the guy that plays Connor looks like the guy from 9-1-1?

42:32Oti: Yeah. I couldn't unsee it when you mentioned it.

42:32KT: Right? It was ridiculous. Surely, have to be related somehow. I'm just gonna post it. I will I'll I'll tweet it. Okay.

43:08KT: Let let's get away from those ugly feelings and get some sort of levity her. Let's talk about Dan Levy's character.

43:17Oti: Mhmm.

43:18KT: All of my fanfat and all of my happiness was derived from him and the descending situation he had with the pet fish.

43:30Oti: Yeah. I don't know who looks at Dan Levy and feels like, oh, I'm gonna trust him to look after my three pets for for five days. One night maybe? Five days? Probably

43:44KT: not. But when I think there was a dog, there was a cat, and there was a fish. That's just too chaotic. I don't think that was from one person. I think that Abby was potentially pet sitting multiple pets, not from the same owner.

43:44Oti: Oh, you reckon? I I wouldn't say so.

43:44KT: Maybe he was pet sitting Wee-Bey's fish. Maybe. That's a Wire reference. Yeah. We don't really know what happened to the fishes after that. Yikes. Were they sleeping with the Sopranos? Yeah. Man, we're just we're just jumping on the HBO references right now.

44:18Oti: But I'm enjoy I enjoyed him in this show in this movie. It was good seeing him. I felt like it was just a I don't know, I felt like it was just David transported into this different world and nothing really changed, which is what I'm in for. Yeah.

44:35KT: And and we're not for pigeonholing thespians, but, you know, it's, there's nothing wrong also with thespians being known for something and having an expectation of what you're going to get when you see them on screen. Like, Dan Levy is Dan Levy is Dan Levy, and I wouldn't wanna have it any other way. Oh, yeah. Not to say he's restricted to that, but I I fucking love him, and I I would love to just every way. Like I said, Levy vision. I wanna see him in

45:05KT: places that don't make sense. I wanna see Dan Levy in Parasite. I wanna see him everywhere. Wow. He'll be he'll be, like, ringing the doorbell in the raincoat. What I will say about Dan Levy's character is I think he was the best of best friends for Abby to have. He was that support network. You know, he he did have a little chuckle to himself, you know, sticking it to the patriarchy, lesbian asking

45:36KT: for his, like, for Victor Garber's character's daughter's hand in marriage. Mhmm. And also why would why would she even bother trying to adhere to heteronormative sort of customs like getting married. Mhmm. So even though he was there was a lot of jest around it, he was still there to support and love and track her. And track her. If the NSA can do it, so can Dan Levy.

46:05Oti: You know, when Abby was breaking down Mhmm. To Dan Levy, he and the phone call with everything going to shit, and Dan Levy was just like, oh, is a bit too much and hung up. I was like I was starting to have feelings about that.

46:20KT: But you're missing the the what made it so funny is because it it was a bit of a setup because he was saying, I'm so sorry the last time we spoke, I didn't create a safe space for you. So, you know, he's he's creating this accommodating sort of, you know, safe space. And then he's like, no, bro.

46:42Oti: But then we later see that he does come to a rescue. Yeah. Yeah. Which which erases sort of everything. At least he cares to an extent. Yeah.

46:52KT: I I did actually, you know, as as much as I talk shit about this movie, I cried twice. The first one was the outing scene. But the second one was with Dan Levy. And we know it's not Dan Levy. Don't come and fucking fight us. But we we love him too much. We're just gonna call him Dan Levy. Was when he gave that speech and, you know, like you were talking about before that, you know, people are on different journeys or different stages of their journeys and acceptance Mhmm. Of themselves and also those around them. But

47:28KT: the the wording was great. The speech was great, but it didn't seem like it fit.

47:34Oti: It fit.

47:35KT: Alright.

47:38Oti: At least for me, it did.

47:40KT: At least it also said That's why I said you're the problem.

47:43Oti: Because I fully expect and understand what the movie is trying to do?

47:49KT: Yeah. But then do we give graces just because that's what it's trying to do, or can we, as viewers, expect to be entertained?

47:56Oti: That was one of the very few heavy moments in the movie where we see utter vulnerability. Mhmm. And Dan Levy coming up without speech at that moment just translated it to a different level. Yeah. You know? And I fully expected Abby to understand that. And for her to not be ready to be with someone who's still closeted, that's fine. But at least that message was up there.

48:19KT: Yeah. I think it just seems like Abby became the punching bag. And and we've

48:19Oti: Not Dani Sofa level punching bag, though.

48:19KT: Yeah. Because she's the emotional dump truck. I'm saying that Abby, she she only the the the only reason she exists in the movie is for us to feel something. Because with Harper, she's such she's such an abhorrent character. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of you guys that have watched this

48:50KT: were rooting for Abby and Riley to get together. But then I don't think that would necessarily have a happy ending either because the things that bond them are also the things that you shouldn't really build A relationship. Yeah. Like, trauma bonds aren't necessarily something that you should hold to on a cold night.

49:14Oti: Your your shared scorn for another person should not be the basis of your foundation.

49:19KT: Yeah. Because at the end of the day, what do you have out of that? Mhmm. Or is that all you have to share together or maybe even to heal together but I guess you know within the realms of the movie cool yeah okay I I guess while we're here I will say I did not care for Jane's character She she was really unnecessary in this whole movie. Maybe they wanted to have a wackadoo element in this Christmas movie, but her like, the lack, the deficiency in in in any sort of character identity for Jane

50:01KT: really feels dated. Like, if this was in, you know, nineteen forties, Oti's time, It's a Wonderful Lifetime, then, yeah, maybe I'll have some graces in regards to that. But this is a film that's being made now that is pioneering and having queer leads as the love story. Why do we still have slapstick deficient characters that add nothing to the movie?

50:32Oti: Oh my god. I feel like I'm gonna have to say this every other sentence because it's a Christmas movie. She was the she was the tool to alleviate any sort of tension in this completely. When people were having deep moments, she would swoop in with a little one liner comedic effect, alleviate everything, and bring people back to serenity zen moment. So so it's it's also good that she got her happy ending as well. The book she's been writing for what? Ten years? That was unnecessary.

51:04Oti: At least it's it brought Daniel Levy into the picture of being in the family as well.

51:09KT: The only fantasy stories I want is Abed from Community being a well endowed barmaiden. That's the only thing I care about in in those fantasy sort of stories. But she she kind of gets propped up, and she becomes, I guess, the most rounded sort of character by the end of it. It feels unearned. We didn't really talk about Sloane outing Harper, which we don't need to spend a lot of time on. But I would say, you know, emotionally, Harper took all of the space in the room, but also

51:50KT: she took all of my qualms in the room. So even though I don't agree with people being forced into coming out, I didn't have anything to spare for Sloane because I was already pissed off with Harper all the way through. Mhmm.

52:06Oti: Yeah. But you could tell they've had this rivalry. At least the parents made it be like this. So they're the masters of that. They're the architects of that.

52:06KT: Yeah. I get it. And you, sir, are the accountant.

52:19KT: Because who knew you had so many taxes? I just I just didn't know you had a portfolio for Christmas tax.

52:22Oti: I do. I do. Because I grew up watching and loving this sort of stuff, so that's a soft spot, mate.

52:22KT: Will this be on your rewatch list?

52:22Oti: Yeah. Next year. Let's form a tradition.

52:38KT: By yourself. You mean you mean spending time apart? That that's what you're saying?

52:43Oti: For one hour forty minutes. Yes.

52:46KT: Actually, what I will say was probably my first positive thing aside from Dan Levy. Can we bring back and I'm clapping, guys. Can we bring back films that are under two hours? Can we do that? Like, can we just consciously decide that that's an okay thing to do and leave the three plus hours to the Scorsese's of the world?

53:10Oti: Which is weird. Growing up, there was always just a major fixation on the one hour thirty. Like, everything I remember watching was just between that range. And then now, every other fucking movie is two hours plus, and I'm like, Jesus. And it's like In a world where our attention deficit has gone down, we're putting out longer movies.

53:33KT: I don't think it's an attention deficit thing. I think it's about pacing. And, you know, the it's just you choose your moments. You you choose the the spots that you wanna sow your seeds of emotional investment, and it it becomes a curated visual audio experience. Right? Because I guess this is a very natural way to plug our Patreon. We have Reference Plus where we watch stuff, but it doesn't end up being episodes. And a lot of them are well beloved movies, but we just don't we're not going to be covering them as full episodes.

54:13KT: Well, I guess that's my PSA for the week. If it's not an epic, then don't make it more than two hours.

54:20Oti: Yeah. I reckon, man. Sometimes we just wanna watch things that are light and short, something that you can watch on a weeknight as well, not dedicate your whole two hours starting minutes trying to dissect every other fucking thing in the movie. Ugh. I missed those days. I remember complaining back in the day that we needed longer movies. Now I'm just here and I'm not feeling it.

54:47KT: Well, naive of me to think that I can have qualitat in a Christmas film. Apologies.

54:52Oti: Ange did have quality. Not Moonlight level quality that you wanted this to be. No. Or even This Christmas.

54:59KT: Didn't Idris Elba or there was some character in This Christmas that wanted to play jazz, but it was such a taboo thing in the family to play jazz. That's way more compelling than what we saw in this movie. Wow. Okay. We better wrap up before

55:16Oti: before you say anything else you'll regret.

55:19KT: Hey. I'll keep going. It's a ten hour marathon. It's a Scorsese podcast equivalent.

55:26Oti: Not a Scorsese wanker.

55:28KT: Speaking of wankers, Oti, start us off with, For Your Reference.

55:32Oti: I've got a reference Schitt's,

55:35KT: Nah. Hey. Okay. Fine. What? I wanted to do that.

55:40Oti: Sorry, mate. You snooze or you lose. I've got a reference Schitt's Creek. It's one of the best thing on TV, and it's super rewatchable because we are planning on rewatching it very soon. Katie.

55:53KT: That was a very announcement sort of announcement. I will reference the possibility that I do love a Christmas film, And I will reference Last Holiday with Queen Latifah and LL Cool J. Wow. The 2006 Christmas audio fuck off. You enjoyed that movie too, you you festive asshole. I did. Hey, LL Cool J does some things with with his tongue and he makes you wonder. Mhmm. If if there's anything you would like to wonder about us on Twitter and Instagram, we're at @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

56:39KT: I'm mad. Like, I am big Abby mad right now. How are you gonna laugh at my reference?

56:39Oti: I'm not laughing at your reference.

56:39KT: Didn't expect defend the Queen Latifahs and LL Cool Js of the world, feel free to leave us a radio review on Apple Podcast. Mhmm. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.