Cilckbait – Roshan to conclusions

Full transcript of Cilckbait – Roshan to conclusions.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and starting off with a kind of maybe serious PSA. Stay away from the internet kids. If you still wanna hear this podcast, send us your credit card details, your social tax file numbers, and we will mail you curated cassette tapes of our podcast. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and digital lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Log off your life and subscribe to three egg omelettes and seemingly innocent acquaintances. Investigate

0:59KT: every twist and turn with us this week with Clickbait. Mhmm. Woo hoo hoo. Wow, Oti. I don't know if this qualifies as a Straya show, but apparently they filmed it here. Oh. Yeah. I think you don't come here for the economist column in the For Your Reference Curriculum. But I I I did start to wonder countries around world, but specifically Australia, how he would recover because there wasn't any sort of tourism. And I thought it was going to be the Marvel,

1:32KT: the movie making of it all, but it seems like people are moving their productions elsewhere now. Yeah. So it's it's kind of like a traveling circus of film productions around the world. But there you go. Clickbait was filmed in Straya. I don't know if it classifies as Straya. But let's get into the general stats and information in regards to this show. This show premiered in August 2021 on Netflix. Nice and tight, Oti. We talk about nice and tight. Congrats to our American people because they've got some nice and tight TV series, Eight. Yeah.

2:12KT: Eight. Not bad. It's not gonna hurt you, but it'll sploosh you just the same. Strap in friends and lovers. Strap on. I know I don't say it all the time, and I hope you have been strapping on. And if you wait for instruction, you're welcome, you fucking sub.

2:26Oti: You woke up on a side,

2:30KT: I woke up on a boner, and you should know, sir. Created by Tony Ayres and Christian White, we have starring Zoe Kazan, our The Big Sick. We love her. We love. We love. Who we love even more, Betty Gabriel. Betty Gabriel. Can we just say she's like the unofficial official infiltrator in the For Your Reference camps? Upgrade, which was I think our third episode overall of this podcast.

2:56KT: And also Get Out. So shout outs to Betty Gabriel. We love to see and she was always also in Defending Jacob as well. We just love seeing her as much as we can wherever we can see her. And we also have the entourage of all the entourages, Adrian Grenier. You know what? At this point, it might seem deliberate. I say it's an achievement. At over a 100 episodes, we have not ever, I can recall, referenced Entourage at all.

3:28Oti: Because you've not seen it, and I've tailored it in and out, and, yeah, I'm not sure. Shout outs to our beloved pal as well as beloved patron, Julio.

3:40KT: He did comment. He had an idea of me watching the show and laughing at how much I would hate it. And I feel like I kinda would. So maybe that's a challenge. Maybe that is going to be inevitable lack of character development. I don't know. Now now we're in the Lindelof hunt of it all, I might dabble in Entourage. I might try. I know Jeremy Piven is an actual guy, and he's been doing more serious roles. But I see I see him as Holt from The Cleveland Show. That is a Seth

4:13KT: that is a Seth MacFarlane universe deep cut, friends and lovers. Okay. Now that we've gone down the, For Your Reference, rabbit hole, if you're nasty, let's get into first impressions, Oti. I don't think I knew or I don't think we even watched a trailer

4:34KT: for this show either. So I guess, what did you think about it? What did you think throughout it? And now that we've come out of it, how do you feel? Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, friends and lovers.

4:34Oti: Went into it knowing nothing about the show. Uh-huh. That's the way I like it. Yep. If you listen to our last episode, you can tell you can see that how expectations just ruined everything.

4:56Oti: So went into this not knowing anything about this show. Yep. Apart from a comment from Sonya, I think. Shout outs to Book Alies. Go and check out our collabs. And wow. Watching, you know, I enjoyed it. I don't think it was the greatest thing I've ever watched, but it was nice. I like the ending just because that's the last person I thought it would have been.

5:14KT: Yeah. And it wasn't just, it wasn't someone we were expecting, but the way that they they built the intrigue was very good. I agree with you. I think I remember it more fondly than you do. I think we generally agree that we enjoyed the show. The mustache twirling, the twist and turning of it all was very enjoyable. But, yeah, I I think it's been a long time that I've watched a limited series

5:50KT: and actually felt anxious and wanting to know what's going to happen. I also appreciate that it wasn't doing that classic sort of formulaic, and I guess this happens on shows that have a longer episode order where nothing really happens until the end of the episode and it's to it's like hook you in. Right? Yeah. Netflix perfected that shit. Yeah. And I I think a lot of the time I think a lot of the time when you're watching something,

6:18KT: you you just think it's everyone, especially me because I don't you know, I have a complex and there's many of my complexes, but this one in particular, I don't like to appear dumb, so I just accuse everyone on the screen. Like, I accuse Nick of killing himself as well. Like, I just think everyone's a suspect. But if it's done well, it it is very nice to go through and, you know, for sure you think it's going to be someone we already mentioned spoilers.

6:45KT: I now that we know when we've come to the end of it, and we'll talk in specific detail, but now that we've come to the end of it and it's, as you said, no one that we were suspecting, I don't like the name of this. Like, obviously, you don't call it catfish, but I don't it's called Clickbait. It's kind of like

7:05KT: in detail on our Patreon, we talked about Edi Gathegi's TV show, not Adam Brody, Edi Gathegi's TV show StartUp, where the name kind of takes away from the show. I think there was a lot of, you know, nuts and bolts that made this eight episodes nice and tight and splooshy muy caliente. But the title of it, when I think back to it, I'm just like, it means nothing.

7:05Oti: I don't know. I kind of think it makes sense a bit.

7:05KT: Well, his profile isn't a clickbait. It's a catfish. It's not a clickbait. Semantics.

7:38Oti: You've to attract people for them to come in to be catfish.

7:44KT: Mate, when you get a Facebook message saying hot singles in your area, that's a catfish, not a clickbait. I'll be like Jian-Yang from Silicon Valley. Clickbait, not clickbait. Yep. Go and check out our Silicon Valley episode, friends and lovers. It is all around.

7:59Oti: Well, I think it just made sense for it. I don't think it's the worst Donald I could have thought of it. But wow. Wow. Wow. I think you you guessed everyone. Yeah. Did. Apart from the person who actually did it.

8:15KT: Because she's so unassuming. Right? She looks like the sort of lady that spends her Friday night knitting a teapot cozy, which I don't I do feel like it is very on the mark, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing as well. Everyone wants to feel desirable. Everyone wants to feel attractive, but not everyone assumes an online identity to fulfill that gratification, right?

8:41Oti: Yeah, well things escalated beyond her control, you know, and I think she never intended it to be that bad or to veer off to that extent where it became fucking national news and to have Nick missing and killed in the process.

8:41KT: Well either way you're playing with fire man.

8:41Oti: You know what, all this can be laid on on the feet of Nick. Just being fucking stupid.

8:41KT: Okay. Yes. I can agree. I can agree.

9:12KT: I can agree with that. But if there are Nicks in the world, maybe they listen to the start of this episode and they're gonna send us their credit card number. But yeah, there's a certain level of, you know, cyber astuteness that people should have in regards to their security, right?

9:30Oti: You know what? I'm not even talking about that. Fair enough, you give this old unassuming lady your details to you. With a teapot cozy? Fine. Mate, after the day you've had being captured and thinking you're going to die, you are released.

9:46Oti: And the first thing you do Yeah. Is not go home. Yeah. No go to the coppers. Is to go to this old lady who's completely the whole fucking thing. To confront her. To confront her. To what end man? To what fucking end? That's why I couldn't just you know what like I enjoyed you know I enjoyed the movie but when there's such a fucking massive qualm to have with this, you're like, how could you be this stupid? You didn't make any fucking phone call. You didn't do anything.

10:13KT: Nada. After the days had, like, that's unbelievable to me. No. I think it would be more unbelievable if he wasn't well-to-do white guy because that's a well-to-do white guy thing to do. Anyone else would have gone back to their family.

10:29Oti: Yeah, baby. I'm speaking here as a black man, mate. I don't know my first fucking option wouldn't be to go to the puppetry and all this. You're getting a limited episode, not a limited series, mate. So true.

10:45KT: Well, I guess he saw her as not a threat, but also at the same time, you know, I'm sure there are many documentaries that exist, and I would be interested in watching it as well. To to have insecurities is very normal. But to go out of your way to create an online persona to gain the gratification that you're not getting in your real life because you might be forever alone or because your husband likes to train himself rather than train you. Right? Like,

11:17KT: there's something to be said about that. And as far as I understand in the narrative, Nick knew that she had something to do with it, and she had online sort of personas using his identity.

11:31KT: So even then, there were already some crumbling foundations that Dawn had to be like, at least one little baby red flags be like, don't fucking go to her house alone. Like, like son, like father though, because Kai ended up there as well. I'll just call your farms mate. Yeah. Like anyone, literally anyone. Like call and say, hey, I'm on my way to blah to to to Dawn's house. Yeah. I'll see you soon at something.

11:57KT: Because you know your formula's been fucking missing you the whole day. Yep. This thing has been published publicized all over. Can we also acknowledge that Pia probably contributed to, 10% of the 5,000,000 count? How many times? Like, you get it. The the video's there. How many times do you have to load the page to see it? To see how many visits were there. And then she ran into her hospital ward and she was like, stop flashing it after she opens it 10 more times.

12:23KT: Like, you're young enough to know. Unless the Brewer family were, like, off the grid and they were never raised by computers like the rest of us, I don't understand how she didn't get how the counter was working. Or she maybe she thought it it didn't work for her and it worked for everyone else. Yeah. But that was very interesting. It was it was a very interesting because I think a lot of the gotchas is just to getcha. Right? But there were a lot of Hansel and Gretel morsels to enjoy along the way,

12:54KT: including diverting suspicion to other characters. And just as we're generally talking about the overall story, who did you think it was? Because for a long time, I thought it was Matt.

12:54Oti: I thought it was Ethan.

12:54KT: Yeah. I thought that too. Those texts came in way too much. I was like, he looks suspicious as hell. What the hell did he do? Yeah. I know we're gonna talk specifically about characters and I do have a couple of thoughts about Ethan and we'll come to that. But

13:23KT: I don't know if we're gonna talk a lot about Matt, but I will say it now just in case we don't have time. So he didn't end up being the catfisher. I think there was part of us that also thought he was assuming Nick's identity when he was in LA as well. So he he wasn't he wasn't the one that was doing all the catfishing, but he was a fucking pervert. But the way that they had written the in the show was, he's not the bad guy. He likes young girls, but oh, well.

13:53Oti: I should say, you killed?

13:57KT: It was just the way they wrote it, and it's like, you just shrug your shoulders, and then you move along to the old pervert. Like, I totally like, fair enough. Like, power to however you wanna write it. But it was so interesting because everything was so manicured and so deliberate in this show. And then they just like, you know, cleaned their hands physically and literally of Matt and be like, okay, bye.

14:22Oti: Well, they did have a throwaway comment at the end there. One of the girls had decided to go forward and prosecute. So I guess that's their way of saying, he didn't get scot free, at least there's some action taken.

14:35KT: Yeah. I I guess so. But, yeah, I don't know. It it just felt interesting. I I hear you. I hear It you. Just felt interesting because until until Dawn actually well, her husband actually killed Nick, it kind of wasn't a problem on a community level. But Matt was going around doing some shady shit. So, like, if you were to take out your Oti Abacus, it definitely would have tipped more in that particular favor. But let's get into the show.

15:07KT: I I think we can just go from episode to episode. It kind of focuses on, like, the main sort of characters anyway. But, yeah, feel feel free to go wherever you want, my love. But the first episode is called The Sister. I think it was good that we didn't try and read the episode names. I don't know if that would necessarily denote to who did it. Actually, no. I don't think so because I don't think Dawn had an episode named after her, except for the answer, which is the last episode. So really,

15:39KT: everyone that was named in the show weren't wasn't guilty at all. But it was still enjoyable. Like, sometimes when there's a misdirect and you don't know where you're going and everyone's a suspect, it can be a bit frustrating. But the show found a way to make it fresh and exciting. And at the end of every episode, you just feel like an idiot because you had been thinking it was this person all along. But let's talk about Pia. Did you think it was her at ever any moment?

15:39Oti: Nope. She loved him too much. Too much.

16:14Oti: Like they explained the relationship that they're closer than the average brother and sister. I was like, yeah, cool. I see that. Yeah. And no point did I think that she had anything to do with it. Zero.

16:27KT: Yeah. She she cared so much and she cared a lot. And then later on, we find out when she's, you know, sharing with her sister-in-law, Sophie, that he found their father. So that's not something that he would ever joke about. So and and even to to go through such a traumatic event, to be so young, to go through that together,

16:51KT: they have such an unbreakable bond. So it wasn't necessarily that she was guilty, but there was definitely moments where, you know, she was out clubbing and she blacked out a bit and we were trying to figure out what might have happened between those moments as well. If anything, it seemed like something would have happened to Pia, but it happened to Nick, the perfect husband with the perfect family. Mhmm.

17:15Oti: Yeah. I I just didn't think any at any point that it was her. I think that I feel like she almost believed that Nick had done all these things up until the suicide thing, when Nick was like, Do it then. Kill yourself. I don't care. And then she was like, Okay, this is definitely, definitely not Nick. And once she found that out and she always followed through, she always gave her all to try and find out the truth. And when

17:44Oti: Sophie wasn't happy that Ethan was being involved with me and trying to find out the truth, I was like, Come on now. At what point are you just going to sit back and realize, I am believe all these things? Because I don't think I would for you. I'd be fucking hard, but I don't think I'd sit there thinking, man, you're such a creeper.

17:44KT: I feel like you just wanted to say that.

17:44Oti: Yeah. Even if you're doing it in a hypothetical situation. Hypothetical, mate.

18:07KT: The For Your Reference tapes. Yeah. Like and she kind of becomes a very constant, very forefront, annoying presence, I would say. But it is understandable because she loves her brother. It was interesting, especially establishing the dynamic between Pia and Sophie because Sophie was a bit I wouldn't say she was quick to believe the signs that Nick was holding, but it also seemed like she wasn't as invested to investigate it. And I guess there's a part of it where,

18:46KT: you know, there's a lot of healing and a lot of grieving that needs to happen. But, you know, later on when we come to find the infidelities, you know, that becomes a whole different sort of story. But it was interesting to see this sort of dynamic and how Pia was always in the ring, always trying to find what happened. And I think it was definitely a good way to establish the show as well.

19:12Oti: A 100% agree. I think when we do get to Sophie, I think we'll talk about more of her nonchalance ness to pursue this as as as Pia did, or even show as much emotion as she did.

19:12KT: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Let's move into the second episode called

19:28KT: The Detective. He was all about his career, wasn't he? But Roshan got like I I don't even understand why we were focusing on him so much. I don't even understand how, first of all, he got a title episode and he was the second focus of this eight episodes. I guess that was a way to move the story along because there's a lot of evidence finding in this episode. But it is interesting that first of all, they chose to have a focus on Roshan, and second of all, he was the second episode

20:00KT: of this. Shout outs to Oti because you clocked that he was the one on the dating app Mhmm. That she was texting. I I'm terrible. Like, unless I actually know who the actors are or everyone's walking around with name tags, I don't remember like, don't remember faces. Everyone looks like Kelsey Grammer to me. I just So I I just I I just don't

20:00Oti: Are you the Polka-Dot Man?

20:00KT: I am. Is that a Suicide Squad reference? Go and listen to our Suicide Squad episode, friends and lovers. It's very fun. And Ben from Filmbusters,

20:40KT: if you are listening, the Suicide Squad of 2021 is the brightest bushel in your life, you motherfucker. That is KT, the detective. Episode two on For Your Reference. But, yeah, going back to Roshan, we we saw a bit more about his family life as well. Yeah. Why? Like, it's nice to have representation and, like, different cultures, but he really, in the grand scheme of it all, he didn't really offer anything because

21:12Oti: Well, played a part in finding the body.

21:12KT: But did he find the body or did he use the app?

21:12Oti: He used the app, something that the police wouldn't do like the he find the Detectives are too stubborn to use technology because Did he I prefer coloring my on my map manually. Well, we're coloring of a different representation.

21:32KT: Thank you. Did he find the voicemail or did Pia offer it to him? And that was really frustrating to me about Roshan. He bulldozed his way into the investigation because I think he was part of the missing persons unit. He wasn't part of homicide. Right? He bulldozed strong armed, man armed himself into the homicide unit, having nothing to do with anything. And I was like, oh, maybe this is him. Like, you know, sometimes the killers like to go and be part of the investigation

22:01KT: as much as possible because we didn't know anything at this point in episode two. But no. He was just a man with a lot of confidence. And apparently, all you need to be is a man with a lot of confidence to get away in this world.

22:01Oti: Mate, if you're not gonna play that game to climb that corporate ladder, you'll never go anywhere. Climb that ladder, mate.

22:01KT: Yeah. But what you what you don't know for women, the corporate ladders have dicks on them.

22:25KT: It's like a Super Mario game when you catapult yourself up by the different dicks. That way. But I I I did it's a tongue in cheek, all the cheeks mentioned representation, but it's true. Sometimes you wanna see representation, but also, unfortunately, representation also means mediocre, incompetent people as well. Because that's what he was. Nah. You're pissing He was of no value, sir. He found the body. Off the app.

22:58Oti: But people were not looking for him on the app. The cops weren't looking at him sufficiently.

23:04KT: To be fair, shout outs to the parents of those five teenagers that finally got twenty seconds on a Netflix series. They're the real champions here because those kids are the ones that found the body, not him.

23:19Oti: Well, he was there. He was there. Like, can say, and I agree with you. Like, he wasn't as useful as he was brought out to be.

23:30KT: If you agree with me, why do you keep talking then? Why do you have to defend terrible men?

23:34Oti: Such a level that it feels like he didn't bring any sort of worth at all. Was rushed. He was Roshan to conclusions.

23:42KT: Wow. He was. Wow. The one's getting to your head, The corporate ladder catapult with dicks. That's what I will say. Mhmm. Speaking of the app, Geonic, that was created by that teenage kid that had a boner all over for Pia. Right? How do we feel about that kid? It was so fucking obvious.

24:08Oti: He had fucking feelings. And and Pia kept on touching him on his fucking knee, and it was innocent probably for her, but shit, man. He's a horny teenager. He thought that was pretty much a relationship.

24:22KT: Horny teenagers and mediocre corporate men. Oti, an autobiography. Yeah, he was a bit like, I don't know, but was there any point that you suspected it could have been him?

24:22Oti: Nah.

24:22KT: Okay. He was too far removed. You reckon? Yeah. But then, yeah, I I I guess there are so many threads that you can pull in regards to the characters that are introduced into this show, and it it really is not knowing who and when and what and why. Speaking of, let's move on to the third episode, The Wife. The Wife.

25:03Oti: Well, man, I thought Sophie had something to do with it because of her nonchalance reaction to everything.

25:09KT: But it's kind of always got to be the spouse, right? Yeah. We've watched we've watched Staircase. Colin Firth has been casted in a film about it and I'm It's very been a while since I've mentioned Colin Firth. I feel like I'm cheating on him with you, sir.

25:24Oti: He's into throttling, so it's all right. Well, positions are open, sir. People respond to situations so differently. True. It's mind boggling because Sophie had nothing to do with it. Yeah. Though from the outside looking in, you'll be like, 'Hey, why is this woman not crying? Why is this woman so so held up? Why is she not reacting as a spear? Why is she not showing

25:51Oti: emotions to any level?' And all of that can be answered quite easily by or you're outside looking and you're like, meh, it has to be her. You have to question her because who else? But that's exactly it.

26:07KT: I think one of the first sort of inklings where we're like, something is amiss here was when she was doing the press conference or at least like the televised, you know, sort of news update outside of her porch. She just came off really cold and unfeeling. And I guess you could put that down to shock. And like you said, people react differently to different situations, but man, she did not seem like she was in want of a husband at that moment.

26:36Oti: No, because I think, and this is why Pia raised such a good point, she subconsciously wanted it so bad for Nick to be the bad guy. Yeah, because then her affair isn't as bad, stepping out isn't as bad and she's not the bad person in the relationship anymore. Yeah, it was just a tit for tat even though she didn't know about the tit.

27:00KT: Interesting, interesting. You know, unfortunately in the worlds of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, unfortunately Johnny Depp, because of the view of, you know, women are the fairer sex and they can never really hurt men, it is unfortunate that Johnny Depp got the treatment he did, he got dropped from roles unlike Amber Heard. Unfortunately, I am always default believe women. Well, actually, default believe the victims slash survivors. I am always default that. So when I guess getting back to a lighter note, when we saw Nick holding up the signs saying, I abuse women.

27:46KT: I'm a murderer. I'm like, why is everyone trying to look for him? Can we just establish that he didn't fucking hurt women? I was more worried about the theoretical women in the boards that he was holding than even caring about whether he's still alive.

28:02Oti: Wow. Because that's weird. I think when those showing up the boards and the people that knew him knew that, wait, that's not Nick. But they had a doubt. Like it wasn't other than Pia. Everyone was like questioning themselves after a bit. Like how much do I really know him?

28:20KT: Yeah. Which is insane, man. Well, it's kind of like how hearsay accounts aren't as, you know, formidable in a court of law or like eyewitness accounts because they're all kind of subjective. Right? Because if you were if you if you watch any any true crime documentary and they talk about the biggest

28:38KT: high profile serial killers, you will get interviews of neighbors and people in the community saying, oh, you know, that person was such a nice guy. Profile, usually, it's a young white male. But in any case, that particular person was a nice person. You know what I mean? So you can't really go off those sort of accounts anyway.

29:06Oti: True but people believed that was bad after those idiots on the dating profile started coming up saying we had a relationship with Nick for x amount of time and he was the best until he wasn't. And I'm like cool. And then at the end for it to be revealed that none of them actually fucking saw smacked, hard hit. I'm like Jesus fucking Christ, What was this we've watched?

29:28KT: Okay. Can can I give potentially an olive branch to the women that would

29:30Oti: You can give all the olive branches you want me, but don't come fucking forward when you you've not seen hard this guy at all.

29:30KT: What if they're cold pressed extra virgin olive oil branches?

29:43KT: It's hard, man. It's hard. I know. But referencing a callback earlier, I mentioned there's gotta be something about people that create these sort of profiles. On the other hand, there's gotta be people that try and seek a connection and they haven't officially met them. I can't remember. I think this was a Patreon. I think there was a Patreon.

30:11KT: But I talked about no. It was us talking about Sound of Metal. So if you want us to if you wanna hear us talk about Sound of Metal for fifteen to twenty minutes, go and check out our Ref Plus exclusive Patreon show.

30:22KT: But we had a nice little tit for tat on there, and I think I kept my tits and you kept your tat in regards to that. But we were talking about love, and what I said in that was just because it wasn't a physical tangible love doesn't mean that they don't think that that was love. So that's what I'm saying.

30:22Oti: They can think that is love all they want, but in the cold hard truth of it, they need to be asked the most basic of questions from the reporters to the coppers. No one bothered asking have you seen this guy? Have you talked to this guy? Have you physically

30:56Oti: seen him? Video? Whatever? Anything? Nada! Everyone just assumed hey we're in a relationship with this guy. Of course they've met, they met online, of course they've met physically, of course he's seen or seen him on the video or at least talked to them. They're all fucking assumptions. And this is where my qualms come in again. What level of incompetence do you have the reporters and the coppers to be when these questions don't come up and are only raised by a fucking teenager?

31:25KT: Order, order in the snarky Aaron Sorkin, A Few Good Men court.

31:29Oti: I prefer a good hood on it when the foundations are there. When you know that The Us being misled isn't just by mere guys of poor writing. Make the characters competent and then when it comes to the fucking reveal and let them us being like oh it's this lady that did it, then you're like oh fucking shit I didn't see that. But when you have mis fucking redirects everywhere and us thinking that this guy is fucking guilty and the characters were supposed to be looking after this and

32:01Oti: picking it off from a of haystack sort of detail level, they don't do shit.

32:07Oti: Like the most fundamental questions of anything. You met online. Cool. You met on snooker. Did you see this guy? That's You're fucking dead, Asta. That's a casual TV show reference. Fuck me, there's just and you can say it to the levels of them loving it and believing whatever they want to believe, that's all right. But those coppers weren't in love with Nick. Those reporters weren't in love with Nick. Ask the goddamn question so that when we come to the reveal, it's fully worth it. I don't know if he cheated

32:37Oti: because the poor fucking writer didn't think that anyone else would ask that question other than the 14 year old kid. I'm assuming Ethan was 14 or whatever fucking age he was.

32:48KT: Well, what I'm saying, getting back to where we were, I was getting A Few Good Men sort of references. Go and check out our episode on that friends and lovers. But but my point that I was making before you started grandstanding in the court was Emma Beasley. I was just saying because at some point she knew it wasn't real. Like, whether she, you know, pushed it to the recesses of her mind, she knew it wasn't real because who the fuck photoshops a photo and sends it as if it looks like they're on holiday.

33:23KT: Like, that's a different level of delusion. I would say that's really early periphery delusion at that level because I don't know if it was framed as this is what it will look like when we go to the beach, but who the fuck said, like, this is what we look like when like, I never photoshopped a photo to you and said, this is what it'll look like when we're gonna go and see a kangaroo. Like, you wait until you have moments together physically

33:51KT: to have those moments. Like, that doesn't make sense, but what I'm saying on a human level, it is sad that she felt like she needed to continue the facade. It's not correct. The the journalists, the the detectives, but we've already established Roshan was useless. He was Roshan to conclusions. Thank you very much. There's no need for input there.

34:15Oti: I just think it's sad. I think it's sad. And, you know, it's the reason why love scams are so lucrative around the world. Fair enough. Like, I'm not blaming Emma. The onus isn't on her. The onus is on the people who are supposed to look after it. And I think one of the things that we said, I think it was in the

34:32Oti: Patreon app, was that you can't be smart in a vacuum. But this girl, she barely was smart enough mate, but she was able to trick everyone because no one would ask the fucking fundamental question, The easiest question to ask.

34:46KT: Yeah. I think I think the thing is when you're watching it without with with essentially wool over your eyes, when you don't know what's going to happen and you're just enjoying the show as it unfolds, It works, but it doesn't work on a rewatch. Because all of the questions that you're saying now, we're very clear and we're we're we're very aware of it. So it's not something that will fly on a second watch, which I agree with you. And but I also don't intend to watch this show again.

35:16Oti: Fair enough.

35:16KT: No. That's not a dig. Like, I enjoyed the show for what it was, but I'm not gonna watch it again. Like, the thrills were the thrills were the thrills. Before we continue along in the episode, speaking of thrills, I wanna talk about Ben Park, actor Abraham Lim, would you believe, is Kenji from The Boys? Oh. The love sausage of it all, can you believe? Such a lovely, sweet, innocent character, and then we have him as a motherfucker journalist here.

35:16Oti: Yeah. Man bloody hell. He has issues. He is he is the representation

35:48Oti: of bad media. When I said climb that ladder, he took Roshan to a different level. He climbed the corporate ladder with catapulting dicks. Oh man, he grabbed onto those dicks. He didn't care.

36:01KT: Wow. Wow.

36:03Oti: Like, you know, there's a problem when your husband or your boyfriend thought it was all for laughs or just games. And he was like, mate, is this Like, he was taken aback. Yeah. All of it. Yeah. He thought he had a Bonnie and Clyde situation. Yeah. It's mad.

36:19KT: Well, you know, if if you remove if you remove the blinkers of morality and ethics, you can get very far in life. Right? There's an Australian series we're currently watching at the moment called The Newsreader, and it's set in Australia, and it's obviously about newsrooms. And we're currently up to the point where they're trying to get an interview from Lindy Chamberlain, I guess most famously known as Dingo Ate My Baby. But the the moral sort of quandary that they're having currently on the show is that they wanna get the interview. They wanna be

36:57KT: not just want to get the interview, they wanna get an exclusive interview. And this is where you start to see the genesis of degradation in morality or ethics in journalism because the the network executive heads are offering to pay money for the interview. And that's exactly kind of what Ben Park is venturing in because everyone's playing a good game. Everyone's navigating with the same naive morality that they were brought up with until a vindictive motherfucker comes along and decides to pay for interviews or until Ben Park breaks into the apartment

37:36KT: and steals the phone. Like, things don't play fair because there are there are vindictive motherfuckers out there and that was Ben Park. Yeah. And I really didn't like him in this. He broke bad. Yeah. Don't think there's any saving grace about him him at at all. All. No. And it's it's sad when he was talking to his partner and, you know, it was very clear. The the veneer, albeit very thin, dissipated.

38:02KT: Because he's like, all I have is my job. If I don't risk everything, then what do I have? And it's like, you're looking at your beautiful partner right there. Like, you have more than your job. And and also, he went under the guise of a delivery person as well, and he was taking photos in the house. See, representation matters, even vindictive reporters. So Sophie, Sophie, Sophie, Sophie. She was knocking some boots. She felt away. And I guess the way it was introduced,

38:33KT: it was just her cheating. And then later on, potentially Nick was cheating and then we find out he didn't. First of all, the man is the martyr in this show. Nick was, from what we can see now that we're at the end of the show, he was a faithful devoted husband who made three egg omelettes for his two sons and was so attentive in his job at the volleyball team, and he was a well loved community member. And then he went and got himself killed by some lonely lady

39:07KT: masquerading as him in the night.

39:09Oti: He really got the raw deal here. He did. He really did. It all boils down to stupidity.

39:15KT: Well, naive.

39:16Oti: And stupidity.

39:18KT: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Is there was there any sort of redeeming qualities about Sophie? Because at the start of the series, I was saying it's it will take a lot for me to not like Sophie because I love Betty Gabriel.

39:34Oti: She didn't do anything to to to warrant, like, the saving grace for me. It's more that she just she just didn't bother. And I didn't bother trying to find anything to like about her in this. Very cold. Yeah, very cold. And I just didn't connect with her as much as I thought I would. Yeah. And watching her with the relationships with kids, man,

39:57Oti: like, she got angry when Ethan was outside. She got angry with her with her mom. Yeah. How the hell would you let Ethan stand outside of the office to hear that I cheated on my husband?

40:09KT: Is not even the fucking issue. Yeah. Because when you love someone, you just don't treat them bad. Yeah. Like insane. Because I think there was a part of her that just wanted to move forward so she could heal because she had so much guilt. Not only did she cheat on her husband, but her husband is dead. Like, there's nothing she can do to make the situation better because he gone. Like, he's not coming back. He's Bone Thugs-n-Harmony Crossroads. So there there was definitely that element

40:43KT: to that, but it it meant it meant that she didn't have any emotion to give for her sons. And her sons were trying to figure out what's going on as well. Yeah. I think the best thing about her is her relationship with Pia and Gru.

40:59Oti: You know, from the start we see that they can't really stand each other and at the end of it, they're like, you know what, we're in this together. But I hate that because she was so judgy towards Pia when Pia was, in all accounts, more innocent than she was.

41:10KT: But it's always those ones you need to look out for, I guess. Her men on the side was a bit aggressive.

41:21Oti: He has issues. I think this is really like a hard fucking problem with I feel like they wanted to direct you to one direction so much so that you don't think of the actual answer. Yeah. Now They made this guy super agro. Yeah. Aggressive.

41:36KT: And and for what? It's like, calm down, bro. Like, he he fought He had something to hide. And I'm like, what are you hiding? He fought Nick at the bar, which is just aga aga toxic masculinity fine. But then he was trying to attack her too. I'm like, what's going on here? What's what's really

41:57KT: going on here? We don't hear from him at all until the we don't hear from him at all Yeah. Once he's arrested. I'm like, what was that for? What was the point? And then I guess you start to realize that he had nothing to do with it because we're focusing on something else. Man. It was Jennifer Hudson's spotlight. Like, the spotlight was just moving around. Not the Mark Ruffalo Spotlight. Oh, yeah. You don't want that spotlight. No. But we will we will be covering that film very shortly

42:25KT: in the near future, friends and lovers. Let's move on to the next episode, The Mistress. We've kind of talked about Emma already. Did you ever think it was her?

42:25Oti: No. I just thought she just wanted to be around all that. Like it wasn't her fault that she fell in love with a man that happened to have a whole family, a whole life.

42:45Oti: So there was a lot of feeling sorry for her. And then when she got attacked when she was leaving, he kind of realized that she had nothing about it and she was the innocent sort of party in it. I guess that's just how it lands.

42:45KT: It was interesting having Sophie's episode and Emma's episode back to back because we have, you know, Emma, as we don't know her, she's just that random lady that Sophie sees outside of her window. Right? And in Sophie's episode,

43:14KT: she's just this mysterious figure that pops out out of nowhere that follows her, and it's very unsettling. And Sophie's going through so much. Right? So it's played off as, you know, Sophie standing her ground and standing up for herself. But when we get to The Mistress episode, Sophie comes off so aggressive. Yeah. And I guess it's that Judge Judy, you know, there's two different truths and somewhere in between is the real truth. Because that was played very differently from both of their perspectives. Yeah.

43:46Oti: I did feel for her a lot, especially when seeing how she cared, she really didn't, but being catfished, you know, it's super sad. Yeah. It's sad. And, you know, we just need to be better as a society. We need to know how to just do our due diligence and protect your hearts, people. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Out there. Oh, absolutely. Like, are talks in Australia of having legislation against catfishing. So it's a thing that's being talked about. I'm not sure how you police that though.

44:18KT: Well, I think it's quite hard if if I guess if you wanna get super political, it's hard when you don't have written less legislation about it. It's just like, don't do the cybercrimes, man. Like, if you can if you can easily if you can easily flash a tit, hide your face, and get hundreds of dollars of cash, you would. Don't worry about it, friends and lovers. Don't look it up. But, you know, if you wanna go into that detail, it's definitely there. But so so much crimes that are committed online,

44:54KT: the law is such a big slow moving bureaucratic machine that it hasn't really updated itself to account for that. I'm not when it comes to abortions. Hey, yo. That's some real unfortunate, not just Texas all around the world truth. Women's bodies are women's bodies, you motherfuckers, friends, and lovers. And that's it. Mhmm. The Reporter, we've already talked about Ben Park. I think the the main thing to take out of this was we were introduced to another victim, Maggie Oxley, and the difference in this being that she committed suicide. And,

45:32KT: you know, you mentioned earlier that Pia believed that it wasn't Nick at all. But it was interesting because the next episode is called The Brother, and that's where we're introduced to Simon.

45:45Oti: He's the one that I've really felt for in this show. Yeah. More than Sophie, more than Pia. He went through it. Yeah. Because we got to see how they had this relationship with the sister. He was always there for her. Yeah. You know, she had issues, but he always always supported.

46:02Oti: Drop everything to be there for her. The fact that the sister called her? Yeah. Well, she was dying. Yeah. And he couldn't do anything about it. Yep. I do not blame him for trying to go and fucking kill Nick because I think any decent person would have had the same fucking reaction. It's interesting that he was rational enough to not follow through with it. Because he had to Yeah. And and he How do you hold that anger back? There's nothing wrong with him in this. Yeah. No. He's a fucking angel.

46:31KT: You gonna tell me all the men are victims in this? Is that what you're telling me? Yep.

46:39Oti: Tell him there's an agenda.

46:42KT: Well, based on the accounts presented, correct. There are many victims in this and a lot of them do happen to be the male characters.

46:51Oti: Oh, wow. Yeah. I really felt so. I think that's the one episode that I really, really had had my emotions going.

46:58KT: Yeah. And what what was his friend Daryl? Daryl was the loose cannon. Yeah. Yeah. You could tell he's a psycho. Like you barely needed to prompt him to help you in this mission. I think it was more his idea than anything. Oh yeah, absolutely. They better go get it, mate. Yeah. They probably met through Craigslist, just like ready to commit a crime, a vicious, vicious crime. But yeah, Simon held a lot of the emotional sort of resonance in this show, and it happened quite late.

47:30KT: But given the way that the story unraveled, it made sense that we didn't get to meet him until episode six. But it's sad. It it was definitely a sad situation to see Simon go through that and want to be there for Maggie, and it just didn't work out. And then Pia had a whole, maybe not Jonathan Wickinson, maybe more like Bob Odenkirk, Nobody. She had a little fight sequence with Daryl. Yeah. I think it was funny because they both like cyber stalked each other, so they both knew who each other looked like.

48:06KT: So so that was that was an interesting episode, and it was it was sad as well. You wanted Simon to be able to get some sort of redemption, some sort of avengement for what he had gone through. But, you know, unfortunately, there's no real closure there. No. Life sucks. Life sucks. Live life sucks. Mhmm. There you go, friends and lovers. Episode seven, The Son.

48:32KT: I don't know. Do you think looking back at it, it was Ethan or Kai?

48:32Oti: I think it was Ethan because a lot of the focus was on him.

48:32KT: Okay. So I said we'll come to it at the start of the episode, and now we're talking about Ethan. This kid is younger than us. Right? As much as Oti said that Bend It Like Beckham was a childhood classic for him.

48:52Oti: It was.

48:54KT: I don't I don't know what what what calculator you have, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't in your childhood that Bend It Like Beckham came out. Go and check out the episode, friends and lovers, by the way. But the the point I'm making is Ethan is younger than us, so I guess by mathematics, he would be classified as Gen Z, the TikToker kids of it all. All he knew growing up was technology. Therefore, I don't believe

49:23KT: this is kind of like a Steve Buscemi 30 Rock, how do you do fellow kids writing approach. I don't believe a kid like Ethan wouldn't have at least video called with this person. I don't believe Ethan wouldn't have looked up all of the available possible details. The same way Pia was looking up all of the details, the same way Simon and Daryl were looking up all of the details. Ethan had all of the resources in order to be able to learn about, you know, his secret text lover,

49:55KT: and he didn't. So I think that's a writing point of view. I don't get that. Yeah.

50:02Oti: Well, but at least he made an effort into finding out who that was and and going out of his way to go there. Yeah. So it's not like he just sat back and

50:13KT: Actually, that's a that's the second time. No. Kai was the one that went to go meet, but still he has very dangerous behavior and he must have got it from Nick. For sure. So Ethan meets Alison

50:25KT: and Alison gets really pissed off that he would even turn up there. But I think it's healthy that Ethan was a bit cautious about it. Given the timing of things and the way Alison wanted to know every single detail, but we come to find that she's very lonely and she's anxious. So she's not out in the world, so she wants to find excitement. Right? Do

50:44KT: you think they end up a couple?

50:44Oti: Yep. I think so. I don't think I need to see it. I think just the just the thought of it is enough for me.

50:44KT: Are you sure you don't want a season two for this?

50:44Oti: No. Thanks.

50:44KT: And then then We're already getting we're already getting we're already getting season three of You. So

50:44Oti: Woo hoo.

50:44KT: You're excited, aren't you?

50:44Oti: I am. I am stoked.

50:44KT: If I if I remember correctly, we did You after we did Succession, and that's an embarrassing stain.

51:11Oti: Yeah. And this is coming out soon, so we'll probably do it even before the next episode of Succession. So there you have it folks.

51:19KT: Find ways to celebrate aside from wanking off in sidewalks, friends and others. Yeah. But I don't know, Ethan was a bit naive. We also have the altercation that Kai had defending, it was kind of himself because Ethan walked away. So he didn't necessarily had anything to do about it. But Kai I don't know. It's interesting because, you know, there's a lot of conversation on, you know, protecting young black men and even though it's not fair how to conduct yourself around authorities and that sort of thing. It was interesting that, you know, Ethan, especially Kai,

52:00KT: weren't explained that, that they didn't have that discussion. Because there were little inklings of Sophie saying, I don't wanna have to go through with this. Let's move to another town. But the way Kai was moving and operating, it was as if he didn't realize that unfortunately, the actions he takes

52:21KT: isn't as it isn't taken as lightly as others. Like, the white kid's the one that started it. Right? I'm pretty sure it was some stupid comment about his mom being slutty or something. Right? So, you know, the optics of it aren't great, but the reality of it fits.

52:38Oti: I didn't think they had to learn anything about it. I think it was too late. I think a lot of those are just assumptions on the mother's part that they'll get to learn and understand these social norms for themselves. But, you know, if you don't teach them, how else are they supposed to learn? True. Very true. Okay.

52:55KT: Let's move on to the last episode called The Answer. Somewhere in between, we learn about Matt disgusting ways, and it wasn't satisfying enough for me. I I wanted more focus on him being gross and him getting his comeuppance. But anyway, we get to the end of the show. How do you feel about Ed's it's not even loyalty. It's his fealty to Dawn.

53:24Oti: It's commendable. Like, well, my wife loves this, so I might as well. Yikes. If it makes you happy, who am I? You know? Well,

53:35Oti: I think killing Nick was just rush of the blood stuff that he probably, having given it a little bit of thought, wouldn't have done it because it was still controllable to a point. But wow. Yeah. He he he fully jumped into the bad rudder of being bad quite quickly. Yeah. And he didn't show sort of any remorse like, oh, kill someone. This will affect me because I've taken a human life. But yep. But I don't think Ed's the problem, it's Dawn. She she created

54:04Oti: this whole situation and Ed was just providing a solution for it. You don't get to choose how something gets solved even keeping you from jail

54:16Oti: because you're the one that made the mess and you're not willing to clean the mess and someone needs to and that was it. But don't you find it weird that this guy kills someone, doesn't affect them? And then when Kai goes to them, they're like, man, we're prepared to do this. Let's kill this kid as well. Jesus. This is what meant to be ordinary folks just going about their way their days. They turn out innocent as some super killers.

54:43KT: You've shared a lot of your qualms in regards to this show. And this is not necessarily a foundational qualm, but this was a frustrating tangible qualm that I had, particularly with this last episode. Because I don't know if they were trying to bring like class into it, but we could see that Nick and Sophie were living quite well for themselves. They weren't necessarily Succession money, but they were living well in a nice newly furnished house with their two kids, their kids go to a good school.

55:15KT: And then you see Ed and Dawn and they make it very clear that they couldn't have children, not like they chose to be childless, but it just didn't work out in the cards for them. And I don't know. I I don't like how they had the emphasis that he was a Costco manager as if that's something to say that he's not ambitious or he doesn't strive for anything. I guess I also wanna make it clear, like the Christian Bale of it all, you can have really well adjusted, attractive

55:46KT: social people that wanna fuck people up as well. Like, it's not just the the older lady that's lonely from her husband with a teapot cozy telling people to kill themselves.

55:57Oti: And you know what, folks? I think there's a social issue as well that we need to address and movies need to address as well. When we have this old couple that they seem that they wanted to have a family, one way or another, be it biological or anything they couldn't. Mate, there are thousands of kids struggling.

56:19KT: Can we talk about it? The thousands. Can we talk about it?

56:25Oti: Adopt a kid, man. Doesn't need to come out of your fucking crotch for you to care about it. Yeah. For you to have a family. Yeah. Mate, don't paint them as if don't come at me telling me, oh, this lonely couple, old couple, oh, they're struggling, they don't even have anything to hold on to because they couldn't squeeze one out. Mate, the options

56:43Oti: means are out there, dozen struggling and suffering. If you want to help, if you want a family, there are definitely ways, man. There are fucking ways. Oh, absolutely. I I I don't I didn't feel sorry because if you didn't think that if you really needed that family, you'd give a kid.

56:56KT: I don't even know what my role is in this podcast because that was so beautifully said, And I agree with everything. I I don't know what else I can offer in regards to that aside to say, you know, we like to think we're very progressive, but we're not. If we're still getting stories where, you know, couples

57:17KT: don't have kids, are lonely, and it's a dramatic reason that they don't have kids, then we're not as progressive as we think.

57:17Oti: No. We are not. And I'm tired of seeing that shit in movies because it's annoying and it's it's a disservice to

57:30Oti: every kid that's trying to find a family out there and is just alone.

57:34KT: On a lighter note, if you can say your kids are fucking annoying, I can say they're fucking annoying. Yeah. And let's end on that, friends and lovers. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

57:34Oti: Oh, I'd reference You. Of course. Coming out soon. Love, Pans.

57:56Oti: And I'm just eager to see what they're gonna do in the third season. So guys, watch You. You'll love it.

58:02KT: Nice. And I will reference the 2018 film Searching. Nice. Yeah. A little bit of digital, some more competent investigations. And I think it was a more satisfying end, but it has been a couple of years since we watched it. And we love John Cho.

58:02Oti: We love John Cho too.

58:02KT: Screaming from the rooftop, friends and lovers on Twitter and Instagram. We're at ForYourRefPod. Write us in the email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

58:30KT: We're also on evaluate your need to have your own children, but never wanna adopt a podcast. If you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.