Babe – Keep Farm and carry on

Full transcript of Babe – Keep Farm and carry on.

0:00KT: Reference tidings, friends and lovers. We are starting off with Unguesmi. And because I am the supreme KT, yes, this is a Christmas film, so that will not be the question today. The question is, Babe: Pig in the City, is this regarded as a true sequel of Babe Law?

0:21Oti: Babe Law.

0:23KT: Fuck off. Three two one. Nope. Absolutely not. Mhmm. And let that be a lesson to us all. Let's continue on with the show. Howdy ho, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got to hear us, KT.

0:23Oti: And Oti.

0:23KT: Clear the landline to receive a most welcome fax of a sheep pig and crossbreeding duck. Don't forget that little throwaway line in the film. We are covering the 1995 standalone in Babe Law, babe.

1:22KT: Mhmm. I said it, and I'll say it many more times. We have director Chris Noonan, writers of Dick King-Smith. This is adapted from his 1983 novel, The Sheep-Pig, otherwise known as Babe, the Gallant Pig in The US. And we also have a credited writer of George Miller in way of stars, James Cromwell, Magda Szubanski, and Christine Cavanaugh. Christine Cavanaugh, who voices Babe, by the way, if you click on her IMDb, if you wanna be as learned as Oti, feel free to pull your glasses up. She voiced Dexter.

1:56Oti: Really? Not Michael C. Hall.

1:56KT: She's not a puppet inside of him. Dexter's Lab. Yeah. Actual deities of all the territories. Wow. Yeah. James Cromwell also put in tens and thousands of dollars for his own Oscar campaign, by the way. Yeah. So this film was nominated for quite a few, and I think it won for visual effects. I think. Therefore, I am a movie podcaster. Come and fight me, motherfuckers. This film, also, by the way, Oti, was filmed in Australia.

2:26KT: So for a long time, I just assumed James Cromwell was Australian because Magda is. Oh. Yeah. The budget was $30,000,000, and it accumulated a worldwide gross of 254,100,000 piggy coins. Yeah. That's a lot to save the farm. Oh, wow. They took the piggy to the bank. Oh, look. It's you. Swishing the net, Oti. Love that merch. Let's continue on with first impressions, Oti. Before

3:01KT: we had started watching Babe, you mentioned to me that you had only ever heard of Pig in the Big City, and you had watched it not knowing that that was a sequel of an existing masterpiece in Babe Law. I'm just gonna keep saying Babe Law related to Jude Law.

3:18Oti: That makes more sense. So I had no idea there was an existing Babe. I think the only recollection I have was Babe: Pig in the City. Yeah. And I'm not completely convinced that I watched it the whole way through. Okay. So going into this, I didn't know what to expect, and I was surprisingly surprised.

3:44KT: Oh, okay. Well, you get me splooshiest of sploosh, so I guess that makes sense in the For Your Reference household.

3:51Oti: Yeah. It's weird. It was fun. It's tone. So much different from Babe: Pig in the City. Yeah. And it just made sense. For the longest time, I just thought Babe: Pig in the City was a standalone movie.

3:51KT: Well, I keep telling you that we need to watch Babe, and you're like, I've already seen it, Pig in the City. To my horror,

4:11KT: you hadn't ever watched Babe, which makes no sense to me. I guess before I continue with my first impressions because Babe was really big in Australia. Maybe it's also because it was filmed here. That might also be the reason why. But was it big in Kenya?

4:27Oti: I just saw there was a lot of promotions for Pig in the City.

4:27KT: But it wasn't like Lion King, for example?

4:27Oti: No. Not to that level.

4:27KT: Okay.

4:27Oti: But Babe, the second Babe, felt like a blockbuster. It was advertised as such.

4:27KT: Okay. Because I thought I I thought I heard Theo saying a few times that Babe is better than Lion King. I don't know. I

4:49KT: can hear animals. I'm like KT Thornberry.

4:49Oti: Oh, wow.

4:49KT: Yeah. That's a Wild Thornberrys reference. Am I old? I don't know. I think I'm in the right I'm in the right nonlinear timeline as the kids like to say. So my first impressions, I loved Babe. I absolutely loved Babe growing up. It was I was the age to enjoy Babe. I was the target audience for Babe. I also preferred spending time around animals as opposed to people. That also applies today. But as a kid, definitely. So so I really enjoyed

5:27KT: Babe as a movie. And I'm so glad that as an adult, it still stands to the test of time today. Not even to the sense of the test of time, unlike Scorsese in Taxi Driver and The Departed where he's using very colorful language in the first ten minutes. It's good to know Babe wasn't like using derogatory language, which is always nice to know. But even from a story point of view, I'm glad that even themes or following through on introductory plot points,

6:01KT: it wasn't even needed for a movie like Babe. And that's what I really appreciate. Obviously, we're going to get to a very learned discussion about a universal film. And I know this isn't an animated film, but I do, I guess, wanna put a reminder to people, animated films, even anime, or even things that are geared towards kids can also be enjoyed as an adult. If if it's done by the right people at the helm, you can be in for a good time.

6:34Oti: Yeah. You sure can.

6:35KT: Oh, but I felt so good, Oti. I felt so good. You know, lately, we've been going down what we think tried and true, even well beloved movies that you love. And it it doesn't turn into any sort of enjoyable experience.

6:53KT: I think for a long time, it started to to I don't know if it it was bothering me, but I was very aware of the fact that things that I was deeply resonating with that I was really finding Anchorage with was really sad and depressing shit like you know retching on the floor gut wrenching sort of grief which is great but then if that's the only thing that makes me feel then that's a problem

7:18KT: but Babe came and turned it all around and I had so much fun with this movie. You're giggling the whole way through. I was giggling, I was gaggling, I was all over the farm I tell you. Also, another little thing just before we leave first impressions, I actually don't like human voices superimposed over animals. It pisses me the fuck off. But

7:43KT: Babe can do it. Babe is the exception in every single sense. I think because it wasn't done in a way where you can hear its 40 year olds voicing an animal talking to nine year old kids watching the movie. I think that's what it was. Like, the animals sounded like the animals and they they fit.

8:01Oti: They sounded like the animals.

8:04KT: I told you. I'm KT Thornberry. You're you're Donnie in the Thornberrys.

8:10Oti: Oh, wow.

8:11KT: You reckon? Yeah. Akin to Donnie Wahlberg in the hierarchy of the Wahlbergs.

8:17Oti: He's the best Wahlberg.

8:19KT: Is he?

8:20Oti: Yeah. Some of my IQ.

8:22KT: He's the best he's the better Wahlberg. Is this the wall bug you'll burger on? Mhmm. Alright. But I really enjoy it, babe. I I there is still enough room in my cold, cold heart for movies that are wholesome and heartwarming.

8:40Oti: True. I agree. I I felt that in recent times, we've watched, like, movies are was super serious. So it was really nice just having a fun movie that you didn't have to think about too much. Mhmm. You're simply there for enjoyability purposes. Yep. And that we did. Well, just getting to see how Babe transverses the world. Uh-huh. You know, it was fun.

8:40KT: Just generally, I really appreciated

9:08KT: the visuals of the movie. Again, we are not talking about Pig in the City, and I also don't think it's popular enough to have its own podcast. Love me. Don't fight me. It's a festive season. But I liked I I liked how it felt through way of the way it looked, if that made sense, because it was based on a novel. It felt like an animation, but it was live action, if that makes sense. And, you know, I can I can consume a lot of ridiculous things? As much as I say I don't emotionally

9:42KT: sexually avatar tether to a lot of characters or ridiculous sort of premises, As long as you introduce it and you inform me that we're about to get into some ridiculousness, usually, am all the way in. Oh, yeah. So, you know, having the animals be aware that the TV is able to broadcast events outside of what's in that box, and they're all watching from the window like Babe in his triumphant moment, I was all the way in.

9:42Oti: True. True. Me too.

9:42KT: Which brings me to, you know, the very opening sort of sequence. It definitely

10:20KT: made me reflect on the Miyazaki masterpieces that we did and the love of pigs. They were very clean looking pigs. They were movie pigs. Movie pigs. They were movie ready. And that brings me to the opening scene. It felt very Animal Farm without the George Orwell heaviness of it all. It really did. It really did. It definitely found a way to convey commentary of the perceived or actual hierarchy within the farm. And, you know, humans, as we do, maybe even deliberately so, apply that into the real world of humans.

11:00Oti: Yeah. It has some symbolisms, of course, and I think it started off quite dark. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I thought that will be the tone for it because I knew nothing about Babe.

11:13KT: Like that like, the documentaries,

11:15Oti: I start off really light, and it's talks about the cruelness of the meat industry sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it would be like a Blackfish sort of commentary on on us consuming meat. Yeah. But they steered off that. Yeah.

11:33KT: I don't know if this is going to be offensive to any of our vegetarian or our vegan friends and lovers, but I I actually had a very traumatic experience with pigs and my family. You know, if you've watched any, what, Lilo & Stitch or even maybe not Moana, but if you've watched any sort of Polynesian thing or people going to Hawaii, you'll see the pig on a spit, right, with the apple or even Pumbaa and Timon and they had their animated, you know, montage of singing.

12:02KT: So so there's actual pigs. You need to go and get them. And there was a family gathering, and I I must have been, you know, 10. I think I was 10 and my dad for whatever reason even though I had brothers maybe he didn't prescribe to toxic masculinity and he decided to take me to a farm and I didn't see or hear anything, but I we had a busted up van, and that van had hardly any seats, any seats that stayed without any sort of assistance. So I was sitting in the boot

12:39KT: holding this Styrofoam box. I didn't even know what was in it until we crossed over a bumpy road. The top flipped open

12:39Oti: Oh, no.

12:39KT: And the pig's fucking head was staring at me.

12:39Oti: Oh, no. Oh, bloody hell.

12:39KT: Obviously, a few hours later, I I forgot that trauma. But it was a very confronting experience. But the reason why I wanted to bring that story up aside from you all feeling sorry for me for whatever reason was that I think I just disassociate meat eating with the actual animals.

13:12Oti: You don't wanna think about too you don't wanna think too much about how it gets there.

13:16KT: Yeah. But it's also I didn't grow up on a farm, so a lot of the meat just came from the supermarket as well. So it's one of those things that you know but you don't think too much about, especially as a kid at 10.

13:29Oti: True. But then I have a problem with things on a spit. I just don't. It puts me off meat completely. Like, Okay. Can't

13:37KT: We're getting into childhood traumas. Why?

13:37Oti: I have no idea. I just it it it's too fucking real.

13:37KT: What if you okay. So you mean if you see it on the spit, not if you get to eat it from the spit?

13:49Oti: Both. If I see it on a spit, I can't. I just

13:49KT: But we've been to Brazilian restaurants where they have it on a spit.

13:49Oti: I just don't.

13:49KT: But it's not it's kind of like a foil, like a fencing foil, but you know?

13:49Oti: Yeah. It just puts me off.

13:49KT: Do you mean like a pig on a spit?

13:49Oti: Yeah. I see it on TV, and I'm like, yeah. I can't do that. And I think there was a time where we'd gone to this place where they had a a whole pig laid on a table.

13:49KT: You mean at my family event, you motherfucker? I knew what I call you.

14:20Oti: That's, like, the the prize of the table. And I was like, I'll just stick to veggies. Thank you.

14:27KT: Well, to be fair, everything that we cook has meat in it, so I'm sure there were meat in those veggies too.

14:27Oti: Probably. But it wasn't on a spit or on a table. Just

14:37Oti: it's full blown self there.

14:37KT: That's interesting. Or maybe it's just because you didn't grow up with it.

14:37Oti: I don't know. Yeah. It just puts me off completely. Sorry.

14:45KT: Let's just digress for one more second. Even your family thought it was weird that I eat octopus and prawn and crab.

14:55KT: Like, freshwater fish and nothing else. Right?

14:55Oti: Yep. Tilapia all day, early day. All day, early day. Everything else, leave it to the gods, mate.

15:04KT: Something tells me that tilapia will be very aggressive if they were in Babe.

15:09Oti: Yeah. Definitely. But I think there was just a line growing up where you had a connection with all the animals that were in at least a small compound. Yeah. And every time when I came home that there was something missing, it just took something away from me. So seeing a whole blown pig or something on a spit just just digs too deep.

15:35KT: But when you say animals on the compound, you mean like domesticated animals or you mean like considered farm animals?

15:35Oti: Yeah. Consider we had a goat that I got really attached to and then came home, and it was on a bloody table. And I just couldn't recover from that.

15:49KT: Actually, while while we're on this sort of similar theme, that Simpsons episode with Lisa seeing the lamb and her vowing to be vegetarian.

16:01Oti: Mhmm.

16:01KT: Did that strike you in any way?

16:01Oti: Yeah. Because I've tried. I've tried numerous times. My battle is still ongoing.

16:11KT: Mhmm. Let's talk about the ever expanding understanding that we have throughout this film of the hierarchy of the farm. It's very interesting. I don't think it's anything different to, like, a human sort of logic to animals and how it works. You know? I I don't even know what cats brought to the table. Do you remember?

16:36Oti: Cats just brought beauty. Yikes. That's what they said. That's what the cat said. I bring beauty and to show affection affection to the owner. And if you own cats, you know they don't show any fucking affection, mate. They choose.

16:50KT: They choose when they give their affection, and I don't like that. Mate, I don't know what cats you had. The cats I had growing up, they did not show any affection whatsoever.

16:50Oti: I've never had a pet cat unless you call that temporary pet cat we had in Kenya. We don't. Hell yeah. Yeah. We didn't I I'm I've always been a dog person. Cats, I don't know her. Oh. Okay.

16:50KT: So according to the world of Oti, cats are for beauty, dogs are for herding sheep Mhmm. Cows provide milk and sustenance.

17:23Oti: The rooster to breed with the hen. Yeah. And apparently, it lost one of its function to the duck in this movie. Yeah.

17:32KT: I I wanna farm. I wanna get to a point where I see animals acting like other animals. Like, think it'll be really cute. Aside from the fact that Theo is kind of like a big cat, I think he fits more into the cat species as opposed to a dog. Yeah. And we've also got the horses that are pretty much useful in every sense and have really pretty boots.

17:54Oti: Mhmm.

17:55KT: Very cute indeed. It was it was interesting and again it is considered a movie for kids so there was a lot of depth that I appreciated but I was also like how dare you bring so much quality into a film that the main audience probably doesn't even notice or even care about? There was a lot of rhetoric and, you know, statements that were made throughout the movie from all different animals in the hierarchy saying,

18:24KT: you know, he should accept what it is and be thankful for it. Mhmm. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. Yeah. There's an air of it is what it is. You know? Just go with the flow.

18:34Oti: But the little pig that could would not let it be. Yeah. And it was just sort of motivational in a way. You know? Absolutely. Seeing a piglet trying to

18:46KT: Non trademark.

18:49Oti: Trying to really put himself out there to be better than what his the world perceives of him. Yeah.

18:56KT: Because if we if we go back to the opening scene with the narration and, you know, narration is here, there, everywhere. I think everyone has their own opinions about narration and whether it serves a purpose or not. I really appreciated the narration, especially the way that they set the tone for the movie because they were saying that if you grow big and fat, the faster you grow big and fat, you get taken to a paradise. Mhmm. Non spoiler, Attack on Titan. Like, you get taken to an amazing place,

19:29KT: so amazing that you would never wanna come back. That is some real sad fucking shit right there. Yep. Because you start to realize your mama's not coming back, and you make these stories of why they're not coming back. Right? And you see them carted off and then obviously there's the reveal that the truck is going towards a butchery. Mhmm. You know what's interesting? They use the word piggery and I don't wanna look it up because it's too negative in the world if that's not an actual term.

19:58KT: A piggery. A piggery. Maybe it's one of those cafes in Japan. You know how they have like cat cafes? Mhmm. You go to the piggeries. Mhmm. I think I will allow you, Oti Cuban, to invest in that idea. I will offer you 0.5% equity.

20:15Oti: Deal.

20:20KT: Oh, but I really love it because as deep as it is, as layered as it is, it's still accessible for the target audience being younger kids because it's it it is explained in a way that is understood on multiple levels. Yeah.

20:20Oti: But I think as an island

20:40Oti: adult watching this, you you take it in from a different level, and it's not just solely, oh, talking animals, and that's fun. And, you know, it's you get to see a lot of nuances that maybe younger the younger audience would miss. You get to see how Farmer Hoggett gets along with his day to day. We could see that he's clinging on to the old ways of doing things. You know? He has his kids who Oh, I can't believe you're still using an old a horse and a cart.

21:13KT: Imagine a fax being the revolutionary invention. Right? And I know you just completely slipped past it. I don't know why this is a chip on your shoulder, but I don't think anyone was questioning whether you were smarter than the target audience of Babe. Like like, we know that there there's multilayered messaging in Babe. So so no one's disputing that you are picking more from this than a child, Oti. Just putting it out there. You are fighting some very hidden battles at the moment.

21:51Oti: Yeah. It was just good to see him try something different. And I think if Esme didn't have our convention, then he wouldn't have tried something different. He wouldn't have tried taking Babe anywhere. Yeah. He probably wouldn't even have entered the competition. He looked like a guy who just didn't want any confrontation, and he just went along with it most of the time.

21:51KT: Okay. It's 2020, and I love that you're propping up women, but Esme isn't the woman you need to prop up.

21:51Oti: I'm not propping up Esme.

22:17KT: But I'm saying she wasn't really that extraordinary.

22:20Oti: I didn't say she was. I just said if Esme was there

22:24KT: Oh, so you say she was getting in the way of progress. Yeah. Oh, so apparently, in this time machine, we are not in 2020. We're in the nineteen fifties. Yeah. Because I yeah. I didn't know where you were going with that, and I'm like, there are other women that deserve propping up and not as many. No. You're not propping her up at all. But what I thought was really interesting, despite being a technophobe,

22:51KT: one of the saving sort of graces for Farmer Hoggett when, you know, Babe started to get well again to compete. He used the fax machine.

22:51Oti: But he didn't have a problem with the fax machine. It was Esme. Esme was

22:51KT: What? Okay. I see where this is going. I just see where this episode is going.

23:09Oti: There was a way there was a way in which they live their lives, and she was quite content to keep their status quo. And we got to see the a better dynamics in between the two. Uh-huh. When Esme wanted to kill Babe to have him for Christmas dinner. Oh, did we say spoiler spoiler spoiler? Oh, if you're thinking Babe is a movie about a pig that goes into a farm and it's not meant to be eaten, I guess that it's a fucking spoiler. Jesus.

23:40KT: Well, I guess Peppa Pig is in for a very a very dark ending then.

23:46Oti: Also say, we we're going to see a better dynamic of the two because he couldn't come up straight out and say, hey, babe, my wife babe. I don't see

23:56KT: My wife, babe, not my pig, babe. Yeah.

24:02Oti: Quite just must be it must be interesting when you're, oh, babe. No. No. No. Wife, babe. Keep going, babe. But he had he he couldn't come out and say, hey. I see something in Babe that I wanna keep him for a bit longer. He could be valuable. Yeah. He had to twist it and turn it into some sort of, oh, maybe in the next year, we could actually have him in the fair and it could win us praises and honors. Let dream. Let him dream.

24:29KT: Yeah. Yeah. Because he was supposed to be the prize of Christmas.

24:33Oti: Yep.

24:34KT: And Esme was very bent on that. I I didn't grow up in a farm, but, you know, my family in Tonga, I've been there a couple of times, and that is what pigs get fed. That slop. I'm sure it's tasty to them, or is that something that us humans say to make us feel better?

24:51Oti: Probably. But then again, pigs eat almost anything, don't they? Yeah. Especially Mr. Wu's pigs from Deadwood. Oh, those pigs. They're for a completely different reason.

25:03KT: So, yeah, definitely go and check out our Deadwood episode. I like how we keep referencing it in our recent episodes. Our first year of podcasting Oti. Mhmm. But, yeah, going back to the film, it was sad that Farmer Hoggett couldn't just live his dream. He had to package it in a way that made sense in Esme's brain. Yep. Which, I don't know, at that point, don't you just let people live and be happy the way they want to? Yeah. I guess.

25:32Oti: Well, I think back then then divorce wasn't such a big thing, was it?

25:32KT: Wow. Do you hate Esme that much?

25:32Oti: I don't hate Esme. I'm just saying, you it just looked like a relationship that wasn't working at all.

25:46KT: Okay. If we had time to create another podcast, it would be Oti's Will They Divorce or Not?

25:56Oti: True, babe. I was

25:59KT: I was going to come for Sarabi and Mufasa, but I think you'll come for me. I enjoyed it. Well, you know, once once I I think every sort of interaction that Farmer Hoggett had with Babe or his as he would call Pig, it was fun because, again, we've kind of shattered the world of reality where animals can talk. So you're kind of bought into that. So every time he would look in the direction of Babe, aside from him segregating the colors of the chickens, you know,

26:30KT: because this was made in the nineties, not in the nineteen fifties like we've established. But even with those sort of moments where he would look at Babe and be able to understand that there was more than what, you know, the usual sort of animal behavior would be, because we had, you know, disbanded the reality, I was enjoying it. You know? I was like, oh, he's actually starting to understand Babe as a actual entity, not just as a pig.

26:57Oti: True. Which was surprising then Mhmm. To come to the scene where Babe runs to the farm and sees that the sheep hearted like, the stray dogs were were attacking. Yes. And then for Farmer Hoggett to come and see Babe there and think, oh, Babe actually bit and wounded and killed Yeah. One of the sheep. Who the fuck? He barely had any teeth. Did you see the scar on that sheep?

27:27Oti: And this is a farmer, my sheep. Maybe it was his wife. A city boy who's never seen a fucking scar before.

27:32KT: Maybe it was his wife babe that bit the sheep. Can we get a wife babe shirt? I would wear that all around the town. Oh, yeah. Done. But, yeah, I do think as much as I really enjoyed and loved this movie, I do think that was a bit ridiculous. I know they needed to create some tension and a complication if we're going back to, you know, adult KT and and analyzing the storytelling of the film. It did feel confusing

28:05KT: because up until that point, he was Babe's cheerleader. Mhmm. So it made no sense that out of nowhere, like you said, okay. So so he's there. But even as a farmer of learned experience, hands on experience, you would know that there's no way because it was, like, slid across the Yeah. Maa's throat. The Scooby gang will come there and be like, no, mate. It's not you. Exactly. Exactly. That Baa-Ram-Ewe shit. Hey? Baa-Ram-Ewe. Bummed are you? Mhmm. There's another shirt, friends and lovers. I wanna talk a bit more about the power hierarchy.

28:42KT: I'm pretty sure it's Fly that mentions it. The bosses only eat stupid animals. And I think that kinda goes back to, you know what we were saying earlier of everyone has its purpose which is also what the cat was saying you know every every animal has its purpose on this farm and if you don't have a purpose it's quite clear that you do have a purpose and I wanted to talk a bit about that because a lot of the time there's

29:09KT: you know it all depends on the point of view that the story is being told right of who we root for who we cheer for And, yes, I'm applying this to Babe the movie. But I guess also from that point of view, any animal can be eaten. It's more applied to society. Tumbling me.

29:31Oti: Unless they're sexy. Oh, you have to take Randy there.

29:36KT: And Mickey?

29:37Oti: Oh, yeah. Randy goes everywhere with Mickey.

29:40KT: Go and watch the South Park Pandemic Special. And if you've watched it, watch it again again just for the sexy pangolin dialogue we don't have time to continue but I do just want to say Randy did find a way to eat that pangolin back to wholesome animal chat it's a lot of societal cultural biblical sort of rules that are applied right but technically

30:12Oti: all animals can be eaten. It just depends where you're coming from from your point of view. Yeah. The cultures that eat horses, to me, that's just a no no. You know? Like, it it varies from various parts of the world. You know? And

30:12KT: How about your parts of the world since you're so interested in other parts of the world?

30:12Oti: Oh, just just tilapia, mate. We try to stick to domesticated animals, but it's

30:39Oti: it's one of those things that every function like, an animal can have more than one function. Like, the hen is there to lay eggs and whatnot, but it can't be eaten still.

30:48KT: Yeah. So it it But it's usually once it served its purpose. Right? Yeah. I guess so.

30:55Oti: I guess so. Yeah. It was just interesting that they they went into this functionality of a of a useful usefulness thing.

31:00KT: It was an interesting concept, wasn't it? But it also made a lot of sense with our human lens.

31:09Oti: It did. It did. And I think that's where sort of Animal Farm did it different, and it was so stuck where we will use you for everything you've got. Of vibe. And, yeah, it was just one of those things that was really interesting point of view to take. Yeah.

31:29KT: But it was a very human accessible sort of point of view. Right? And actually, even even coming from that point of view, it's not all good or bad as well. Right? We exist on this pendulum of absolutes Yeah. And everything in between. And I really appreciated the cycle and and the reality that as a farmer you face as well because, you know, yes, you can take it from the point of view of, you know, they're they're killing animals and they're eating animals,

32:10KT: but at least in Farmer Hoggett's point of view, he cared as well to many extents. So there's that there's that reciprocity between the human or the farmer and the animal. Oh, yeah. Agreed.

32:25Oti: Completely agreed. And I think when we come back to Fly Yeah. He she's been through so bloody much.

32:30KT: Oh, absolutely. Let's come to Fly now.

32:36Oti: She gives birth to puppies. Yeah. She raises them a bit. Yep. Feeds them. Sees them come being taken away. Yep. She has probably other bodies on the farm who get slaughtered.

32:48KT: I do think it was very interesting because as a kid, there's enough, you know, messaging. There's enough Hansel and Gretel, KT, Oti breadcrumbs along the way for you to understand the themes of this movie. Right but when you watch this as an adult as Oti said he picked up more than kids would watching this you are left with the heaviness of it right as a kid you can be like oh, we should treat people well and then, you know, skip off into the sunset on your merry way. Yeah.

33:22KT: You know, as a kid, you see Fly being sad for whatever amount of time and then Babe comes to comfort Fly. But as an adult, she is grieving. She has lost her puppies. And that was definitely something that stuck with me well beyond that scene had concluded. It definitely covers a lot. You know, sometimes I feel like ambitious is very derogatory. I feel like it was successfully covered in this movie because as much as Fly understands her privilege, her farm privilege, it it doesn't negate her from the pain

34:07KT: and the anguish that she goes through as well.

34:11Oti: For sure.

34:12KT: La la la. I wanna talk about Rex. I just wanted to bring some happy singing before we talk about Rex. Rex perpetuated toxic masculinity in 1995. But what I really appreciated, again, about this movie, it didn't need to be deeper than what it was. Right? Even if it was for adults, it didn't need to be deeper than what it was. But I'm glad that Rex got a rounded out full character arc.

34:43Oti: Character development ahoy. Absolutely.

34:46KT: Absolutely. I I make no illusions to the fact that he probably was still a dick even before he became partially deaf. He just kind of had that air about him. Mhmm. But it it was, I wanna say heartwarming, but it was interesting to know that the reason why he isn't at his best, at his alpha, is because he was trying to save the sheep.

35:10Oti: The sheep. Yeah. He stayed there until they all it flooded.

35:17KT: And he stayed there all night. All night. And he almost died himself, which is a very that that actually denotes to a very interesting thing. Maybe it's also emulated from Farmer Hoggett as well. You know, understanding the hierarchies, but also not punching down either. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yes. You are still listening to the Babe episode. And, yes, we do bring the qualita.

35:40Oti: Yeah. But sometimes you gotta punch down to punch up.

35:44KT: Damn dog. Who have whose bridges have you burned to get to where you are today my love? Everyone's me. How many babe wives have you have you plowed your way through?

36:02Oti: Dear. At least we got to see him grow. Yeah. You know? He wasn't just all stubborn the whole time. Yeah. He knew that he was he was trying to overcompensate Mhmm. Establish his authority because he knew he wasn't at his best. Mhmm. So a lot of the things came out as cold when it really just was him overcompensating. Yeah. And then when things got out of hand, I think he had a moment of self reflection. He turned into Ter-rex Howard. Ter-rex Howard.

36:02KT: Wow.

36:36KT: No. When he started biting and fighting a Fly.

36:40Oti: He did. He did. He did. At least he wasn't put down. I think there was that bond between Farmer Hoggett and him. It was just Rex has brought so much victory, and then he's a good working dog to the farm. So the better alternative was I wouldn't even castrate him. It's just a matter of make him mellow for a few and see where it goes. Yeah. We've given Theo those sort of not necessarily not necessarily sedatives but like things to calm him was the word because he's really bad during storms but

37:16KT: you could see he was still suffering he was just not moving

37:21Oti: It's all in the eyes, man. Yeah. Right? It's

37:25KT: the kindness in the eyes, like in Love and Monsters. Mhmm.

37:28Oti: Creeped us out. It was like, you're never doing that to him again. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, he doesn't need discipline.

37:35KT: It's Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt Mhmm. Reference. But I I do like that we learned more about Rex, and it wasn't just, oh, go. Oh, go. Man, feelings.

37:47Oti: And he delivered the Baa-Ram-Ewe quote, which I I had forgotten the first time I heard it. I was like, what? What? What did you say? That's a because I was like, Baa-Ram-Ewe. Oh, that's easy. That's a fun, easy password. And then they continue saying, I was like, what? Bum da you. For someone who is also hard of hearing, to get all that, you know, he's not deaf per se.

38:14KT: Nice. Office reference. We did cover The Office, Oti. We can be mainstream gals when we wanna be. Mhmm. But I I liked it. Like you said, we got the okay. This is a bit dramatic, but we got the redemption arc for Ter-rex Howard. We sure did. We sure did. Before we move on to other characters, I just wanna say I really appreciated

38:38KT: the scene with Farmer Hoggett and Babe where Babe was, like, ran off and was shivering and was scared and was losing fluids. But I feel like Babe was only gone for a day, but, hey, maybe pigs have a different metabolism. Because apparently Babe was dying after a day, but anyway. And he was trying to feed Babe, but Babe wasn't responding until he started singing. And then they had a whole sequence of him doing a whole dance for Babe.

39:04Oti: And animals came on to see him dance. And

39:08KT: Babe the dick was too hungry, so left the room. But in that moment, it was a very triumphant moment. And I think this appealed more to the adult me and not the child me. But, you know, we've all had moments where everything is going wrong, and you just need that one moment of levity even if it's levity you bring into yourself.

39:30Oti: Oh, for sure. And I think one of the things that also highlighted this sort of relationship with between Farmer Hoggett and Babe Mhmm. Was when he let Babe into the house when apparently only dogs and cats were allowed. Yeah. So he was breaking those barriers. And for Babe to be in the house and the cats to be like, no, man. This is my territory. The cat couldn't read the body room. Yeah. That's why cats are fucking anyway, I wasn't gonna finish that thought.

39:56KT: Do you think cats were worshipped in ancient times or they were ruling by fear?

40:03Oti: Ruling by fear. Right? Mhmm.

40:06KT: Maybe maybe the cats found a way for the pyramids to be built. I don't know. Probably. Welcome to Refnon territory. Actually, don't. Don't welcome.

40:19Oti: Cat piracy.

40:24KT: This is who we are now. But anyway,

40:27Oti: yeah, because he had just one chance to just be in the room and to accept that Babe would also be allowed in. But no, man. He's got to have the whole house.

40:38KT: But I think there was something in the narration saying that cats are usually good natured. Lie. But there's usually just a few bad apples or something like that. Do you think the cat cut the electricity? Surely not. Well, we don't know how tech savvy this cat is. I bought into a lot in this movie, but I

41:00Oti: I don't believe the cat Well, skip the parts where they're talking. But him, the cat the cat cutting the light, that's where I draw the line. Trust me. I know all about spiteful pussy,

41:11KT: but I just don't believe it. What was very interesting was, you know, when the cat was corralling and, you know, coming towards Babe when Fly left, I thought the cat was just going to attack Babe again physically. But what the cat did was much, much worse. Yeah. And you know what's terrible to a child or at least someone that hasn't experienced the real world? Shattering that facade. Mhmm. And that's what the cat did because at no point had anyone ever explained to Babe that he was there for food.

41:47KT: Oh, yeah. For sure. That there wasn't really any other purpose in this logic and this hierarchy for a pig other than to be eaten. Truth, doctor. Mhmm.

41:58Oti: Did you ever believe in stuff like Santa growing up or Easter bunny or what else is there? Fucking elves?

42:05KT: Do you wanna hear a real struggle story? I didn't fucking care. I just wanted presents and a good meal.

42:13Oti: Out of off the gate, we knew that was bullshit. Really? It it was just a movie thing. Like, our parents were just like, nah. That's a movie thing. That's not real life.

42:23KT: So they got out of decades of gifts.

42:27Oti: What gift? You get a bloody Christmas card, and that's it. You have a bed. That's your gift. The fuck is she eating dinner every night, Nick?

42:36KT: Oh, what a king you are.

42:38Oti: Yeah. Pretty much.

42:42KT: You know what, friends and lovers? When someone's telling you a struggle story, don't be like Oti and trump theirs. What I thought was, you know, adding to the foundation of quality that this film is is when Babe hand heads back to the barn and he asks Fly pretty much, is this true? Mhmm. And what I love about Fly is she didn't mince words. She said yes. So it wasn't as if she tried to coddle him and insulate him in a world where every animal and every species loves each other, but she didn't

43:22KT: she she didn't open him to, you know, truths that he wasn't able to reconcile yet. But once he had found it

43:32Oti: and he brought it to her, she didn't try and confuse him or or, you know, deny to him that it was true. Mhmm. Yeah. Because the world is brutal, and I think the best thing that Fly could do for Babe is to get him to know that pretty quickly

43:49KT: Mhmm.

43:49Oti: What the world expects of him and how he's perceived out there.

43:49KT: Because how bad was it? I think it was, like, halfway through the movie where he wanted to join Fly and Rex. And I think it was Fly that said, no. We herd the sheep. You just stay and eat. When your purpose is to just sit around eating, unless you're the first wife or maybe the first concubine, then you know you're in for some trouble

44:18Oti: for sure I think even the first concubines had problems with that

44:23KT: okay I guess the last thing I just wanted to mention was from the duck Ferdinand. Great name for a duck. Well before the Ferdinand Bull movie. He says something to the along the lines of Christmas means carnage. So he it's him trying to deduce what Christmas means. I think it was dinner. Yeah. Dinner means dead. Dead means Christmas. Mhmm. Christmas means carnage. What do you think about that? Or is it more a circle of life? Yeah. It is. Trademark sort of thing?

44:58Oti: Mhmm. Cycle of life.

45:01KT: Well, whether you believe in Christmas or not, the festive season has started or is about to start, and we hope that everyone is keeping well. Reach out. Hopefully, people reach out to you. This movie was so much fun. Like, I really enjoyed watching it. You could hear through this discussion, I still had my cinephile monocle on the whole time, but my heart was softened. And I really enjoyed watching this. And if for, you know, pandemic and or otherwise reasons you will be alone this festive season, I would recommend watching Babe again.

45:38KT: Not Pig in the City, though. Yeah. That would just take all your happy feelings away. But, again, thank you guys so much, not only to listening for this episode, but also tuning in throughout the years. We fucking love you guys so much. Let's finish off in a segment we call, For Your Reference, Oti.

45:57Oti: I'm gonna reference Chicken Run because I had a lot of fun I had a lot of fun watching it back in the day. And well, this movie is unappreciated, and it should definitely be getting accolades.

46:12KT: Nice. Very nice, Oti. And I will reference I think for the second time on this podcast because we had The Hunt, I will reference a 1954 Animal Farm. Mhmm. Very good choice. I also like to think, Oti, that we are good choices. Mhmm. We don't make good choices, but we're a great podcast choice. On Twitter and Instagram, we are at @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And if you have Apple Podcasts, we'd appreciate if you leave us a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

46:45Oti: See you. Bye. Hi.