Alice in Borderland – Kuina Hearts

Full transcript of Alice in Borderland – Kuina Hearts.

0:00KT: Welcome. However your 2021 is going, friends and lovers. We are starting off with a very divisive UnguessMe. Mhmm. And I guess we'll say, who would survive the borderland in 2021?

0:18Oti: I would.

0:21KT: Absolutely not.

0:23Oti: Excuse me.

0:25KT: Well, let's just leave the tantalizing for the show. Friends and lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:25Oti: And Oti.

0:25KT: Reshuffle the deck and pack your bathing suit as we solve the puzzle of the 2020 Netflix anime Alice in Borderland. Woo hoo. Sometimes Netflix does it, sometimes it doesn't, and I guess we'll find out today. Mhmm. This is a manga, not to be confused with the three part anime that exists,

1:24KT: But it is based on the Alice in Wonderland, as we all know and love. The series was directed by Shinsuke Sato. And the writing credits, we have Yasuko Kuramitsu, Shinsuke Sato, Yoshiki Watabe, and Haro Aso. Mhmm. In way of cast, we have Kento Yamazaki, Oti, who you may actually recognize, who I pointed out very early, plays L in Death Note.

1:24Oti: He does.

1:24KT: Yes. Moving on, we have Tao Tsuchiya and Keita Machida as well as a whole slew of

2:01KT: actors that we have seen and hope to see in many more films and TV shows Mhmm. Or animes, if you're welcome.

2:10Oti: Yeah. It's good. I thought you're going to say, oh, he he was Lakeith Stanfield in. Get Out. No. Lakeith's Death Note. Was it the L there in the Netflix adaptation?

2:24KT: That's also the Anime live action that has Willem Dafoe.

2:29Oti: Oh, dear. Yeah.

2:29KT: Ryuken. Oh, that was for all you fucking nerds out there.

2:39KT: Let's continue on, Oti, in first impressions. How did you feel? We haven't, you know, tantalized ourselves in the manga or anime. I didn't even think to realize that it was based off Alice in Wonderland. Usagi, for example, means rabbit in Japanese. So, yeah, how did you feel watching the series?

3:04Oti: And I guess that's how we can start from there. It's great that it's paying homage to Alice in Wonderland because I know nothing of it. I've seen yeah.

3:04KT: Are you serious?

3:04Oti: Yep. I think You know what?

3:18KT: Because you said you didn't wanna watch the one with Johnny Depp. We love Johnny Depp, but we didn't watch that iteration of it. And I just assumed you would watch the cartoon version. Are you saying you've never really watched Alice in Wonderland?

3:31Oti: Seriously. No. It's just one of those things that it just passed me by.

3:31KT: That's interesting.

3:31Oti: For some fucking reason, it passed me by, and I was never interested to delve in that world at all.

3:31KT: Okay. You're too busy watching Lakeith in Death Note.

3:31Oti: Yeah. I have, like, vague memories of it playing somewhere and me not really paying attention.

3:31KT: But it's kind of like me with Star Wars. You can grab enough popular cultural references. Right?

3:31Oti: Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It just didn't get to me like that. I just didn't partake.

4:04KT: Interesting. Well, it's not something I'm super passionate about, so I'm not going to force you to watch it. But well, you know, give us your general feels on Alice in Borderland.

4:15Oti: I loved it. I really did.

4:16KT: I did. It's a cute tight eight episodes. Yeah. It does its sit ups. It does its push ups. It's very tight.

4:25Oti: Yes. I I think the first five episodes are really one of the best things I've watched this year so far. Yeah. Amazing. And, well, like, in terms of narrative performance, it's just a level next to none.

4:25KT: Oh, absolutely.

4:25Oti: Loved every single bit of it. I think Arisu was so well casted because we've seen we've seen him in a lot of stuff Yeah. Where no he can perform.

4:25KT: Are you pulling your Japanese glasses up?

4:25Oti: I sure am.

4:55KT: I sure am. Subtitle.

4:59Oti: And it's one of those shows that going in, I didn't even know what to expect. Uh-huh. And when it started, I thought, it might they might go down a rabbit hole that

5:10KT: Oh, if you'll pardon the pun, and you did that by accident. Oh, no. You just wanna appear smart, and you're just pretending that you've never seen it.

5:16Oti: Yeah. It might go down a rabbit hole of self wankery, but it didn't. And I think they just it was just a combination of clever writing that I just loved to see.

5:26KT: You know what I love to see? Merch that says going down the rabbit hole of self wankery.

5:34KT: Work on it, Oti. Get us some merch.

5:38KT: Yeah. My first impressions, I really I was sucked in, I would say, in the first five to ten minutes. But that first episode, that first episode was so self contained, and it had so much intrigue. You know, I I think I mentioned it was on a Patreon episode that I don't fucking like clever stories with smart protagonists. I don't like it because a lot of the time, the fanfare gets in the way of actual story development. And usually, for a clever narrative,

6:15KT: the smart protagonist needs to be dumb for a second. Otherwise, if they're so smart, you're never going to have any sort of character development.

6:22Oti: Fully agree, Emma. I think so that just the villain can have a upper hand. You know? Yeah. Because there's no other way. You know? I think recently watched Lupin, and that was just one of the most frustrating things we've watched on TV, especially I think it was super frustrating. Shout out to Netflix for getting a double Netflix. It was frustrating to me because it was really strong up until it wasn't. Yeah. He did something dumb. There's there's five episodes of the first part. I think they're packaging it similar to La Casa de Oti and KT, where they say it's in parts, not seasons.

6:54KT: Mhmm. Staffel, if you're German. Mhmm. I I get what you're saying, but I think Lupin still has an opportunity to surprise us. Of course, it does. Yeah. Fully agree. But what I loved about Alice in Borderland is it really delivered. And the reason why it delivered is there was an emotional through line in the series that, you know, Arisu is very smart, but he was challenged in many ways. And we'll come to that and how it works in the card world.

7:30KT: We are wankers, so we do try and honor the creations, be them film, be them TV shows. So we did watch this in subtitles. I think Oti realized too slowly at the start that it was actually in English.

7:46Oti: Like, even the breathing sounds English. I just thought I was I just thought I was understanding it and consuming it in, how my brain was doing all the translating.

7:58KT: So, you know, watch it however you want to, and, you know, it's nice that people can still consume it even if they aren't able to watch it through a subtitle. So that's perfectly fine. We do have our wank reviews, which I'm pretty sure in everything that isn't in English, you'll hear our particular foray down into. This is also the opportunity to say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. This is a great series. There is a lot of intrigue. There's a lot of twists, Krieger nipple twists, if you're nasty, along the way. And it really is an adventure,

8:33KT: like Oti said, down the rabbit hole of self wankery. So we don't want to spoil you, but feel free to join us on Oti's Bizarre Adventures. I just wanna spend a bit of time just talking visually how you felt about the series. Like, even in the first episode when, you know, the the penny drops and we have Arisu, Karube, and Chota. They're no longer in real normal world. And I love the contrast that they had where it was super busy, really city vibe. People are moving in every which way direction,

9:10KT: and then complete silence. It is desolate. There are papers rustling everywhere. And I love watching behind the scenes because the set producers had to put the paper there, just talking about how clean that part of Japan was. They had to artificially put the rubbish there. But I really love the way we felt so immersed in the world. Even looking at the behind the scenes of the making of Alice in Borderland, that particular scene that I'm talking about in the first episode, they green screened a lot of it, which is absolutely

9:43KT: phenomenal. Like, you can feel the scale of it. You can feel the intensity. And the fact that they were able to they started shooting in August, then it was delivered in December. So absolute top score. Buds it. Well, in some in some buckets Yeah. But not in other. Go and check out Canvas. It's a very nice short film on Netflix. Oh, very nice. So how did you feel visually? Because I I guess what I also wanted to say in that particular scene when the penny drops

10:13KT: and and they're moving into a world that makes no sense, but they need to accept that world, it kinda felt like a game. Like, you you were watching them trot along and and following each other and seeing where they were going to navigate. You know? It's no surprise that it was also adapted into an anime as well, but it felt very game like at the start as well for me. What do you think?

10:36Oti: I agree. Albeit I won't be PS using the controller. You know?

10:40KT: In the eight bit. We love Community. Yes. It's

10:43Oti: I think it was really the scale of it. It got to show us exactly the magnitude. And I think when the penny dropped, they didn't even realize that something was completely off until they went outside, and they saw the street just had no one. That's when those like, what?

11:00KT: Yeah.

11:01Oti: I loved it. I think I was just looking. I didn't even know they were going towards a game like feel up until they went into the building where they started getting the cards. But, you know, I was like, oh, this is so random. What's going to happen? Because you can't just have three people roaming around. And then we get to see this grandiose sort of scale of what's going on. You know? It's not just the three of them. It's citywide.

11:28KT: I I was just falling in love with this show scene by scene. And, like, with each game, with each scene, with each tonal shift, everything looked completely different. There was so much time and attention and care that was given to to this. Absolutely appreciate it. You know, if you've watched the series, you'll see that there is a whole there is a whole host of challenges of games that participants willing or not have to go through. There's also visas as well. So if you expire your visa, unfortunately, you get laser beamed to robot Jesus but

12:12KT: it's very interesting I like the device of it I thought it was very effective sometimes when you have a really mysterious premise especially for me, I can only speak for myself even though I try to speak on behalf of Oti all the time. Go and check out Twitter account. Sometimes if things don't get addressed that, like, part of the initial premise, I'm always looking around trying to figure it out and answer my own questions.

12:38Oti: But I feel like this show was very insular, and it really took us on a journey where we could focus on Arisu and Karube and Chota in the first half of the series. So at least establish that bond. You know? Oh, yeah. Friends. Busy. Showing the dynamic between the three friends, and it was so interesting or intriguing to see them, you know, how they interacted with each other. And once the challenges dropped and once they faced a bit of challenges

13:05Oti: Yeah. Then how the interaction, how they bounced off each other and exactly, you know, you have Arisu who they see as this massively, hugely

13:14Oti: clever guy with lots of potential Mhmm. That they've just accepted that he's going to coast along. But once they're faced with hardships but once they're faced with hardships, they get to sort of, you know, Arisu, you know, come on. This is your thing. Now it's the time to stand up and just be counted and just do what you do. And it's one of those subtle but very much appreciated skills in writing because

13:39KT: Karube, in particular, he's one of those friends that is always cheering Arisu on. I feel like Karube knew the limitations to perhaps his skill or his ambition, and he was fine just beating people up. Right? But he knew that Arisu was destined for so much more. And there's a moment in the first episode where they meet in front of the station where Karube is saying, you can do better than all of us. And, you know, it was a really cutesy, jokey thing because they were talking about a zombie apocalypse.

14:16KT: But Karube was like, no. You'll survive out of all of us. And that was very foreshadowing for the rest of it. And I was like, let me pull my monocle up because something is amiss. Oh, for sure. Something is amiss or something is in the mist. But yeah. And and that's exactly it. No matter what the genre is, there needs to be that emotional attachment, and you need to, you know, give us a reason to care about these characters. And Arisu wasn't really into anything,

14:52KT: but that's fine. And then you see him leaving his house, and he's texting the guys, and he's like, I've just been kicked out. And Karube is like, congratulations. Oh, he said good job on getting kicked out, and it's all about meeting at the bar. But you can really get a sense that these guys care about each other. Yeah. That even though they're also vastly different, that they care about each other. And, you know, Arisu has been through what he's been through. Karube has been what he's been through, and he's ready to sweep up

15:22KT: the the boss's lead. I don't I don't know there's something about the ladies of a boss that are always so attractive

15:30Oti: Forbidden fruit Yeah

15:32KT: thank you Carmela Soprano You're welcome I didn't even give the Oti in there you're just full Carmela. You're Carmela near the end of Sopranos.

15:42Oti: Peace run off.

15:44KT: But what I really appreciated is, again, it it gave us, you know, the KT and Oti breadcrumbs of what is going to lie ahead, especially with Chota. Because remember when Chota was at the ATM and he started withdrawing money and he gave it to the mom,

16:00KT: and you were, like, scoffing. And I'm like, what's wrong? And you're like, he should be giving money to the mom. I'm like, why? And even the mom was like, oh, we need to purify the evil in the air. And I'm like, no, man. She's she's wired. Like, she something's going on there. Yeah. And, you know, even though we know we're about to embark on a journey with these three, it really set the tone of

16:25KT: how different they are as well, but how close they are and the bond that they have.

16:25Oti: Yeah. It sure did. And I think, one, I felt at least at the start how

16:36Oti: Chota was the weakest link of them.

16:36KT: Yeah. Like, does she get tired of being the weakest link all the time?

16:36Oti: Yeah. He did have his, you know, he did have his usefulness because he gave Arisu the tip that mechanical things would work in that environment. So he wasn't That was the one thing. But it was it was the most fundamental thing for Arisu at least to know how to survive.

17:02KT: Karube punched Arisu as well, and I think that was just as helpful.

17:08Oti: True. Maybe you're right. When Arisu and Usagi go in the tunnel, you know, and they're walking through and they saw the motorbikes, You know? I recently remembered what Chota had said about, oh, you know, if they're mechanical, they'll walk in this environment. That's one of the things that made him survive. Okay. Helps. Mhmm. Suppose. So he wasn't completely useless.

17:29KT: Two things. Two things out of the many times. Like, his leg got fried in the first puzzle.

17:37Oti: Yeah. I don't I'm not sure. His dexterity is minus two,

17:44KT: Let let's talk about the first puzzle because I I thought it was thrilling. I thought it was great. Cutely enough, I'm not sure if Oti remembers, but if we were to have a blemish on the face of For Your Reference, it would be the Jay Ellis joint Escape Room.

18:03Oti: Wow. I did Too much hate.

18:08KT: I did mention that I've been to escape rooms with different groups of people, and I don't ever wanna be invited or be around those people ever again. I like the idea of escape rooms, but, yeah, I I wasn't into it. But it was fun watching the first episode and how it all just came so perfectly together. Because they go into the room and, you know, there's obviously, they're introducing with the phones and how they'll get, you know, shot by the laser beams if they try and escape. But in the actual puzzle

18:43KT: of the first game, it was a four of clubs, and that denotes to teamwork. And the way it was done so perfectly because you have that unfortunate girl that goes through the life door based on what Shibuki said. She died. Yeah. It's interesting. Knowing now that Shibuki survived and we got a bit more about her background, do you think it was justified for her to be so heartless?

19:14Oti: I think so because she's been through all that. She was the sole survivor. She's already played the game. So she pretty much knows that she's in it all. You know? You can't just she can't divorce herself from the fact that she wants to survive. She just wants to go back to her normal life where she had to, you know, sleep with her boss to get a promotion. Yeah. Once your bins was up, mate, give me my life fucking back. Yeah. It's not

19:41KT: I would be annoyed. I'm just like, you should have zapped me moments earlier so I didn't have to fuck my boss. Exactly. Yeah. Some dickheads out there.

19:53Oti: Woah. You five seconds before. Yeah. Exactly.

19:56KT: Two seconds before. Maybe. It's interesting. It's interesting how, like, in El Hoyo, for example, you were siding with Goreng about the virtue of of staying with your integrity even in the face of hardship. Because I would say Trimagasi is very similar to Shibuki. But it's interesting how depending on depending on the format, that's who you agree with. And even in Parasite, I was I was all the way with, you know, the Kims, and you were like, no. They should be good people.

20:30Oti: Don't count for my methics. My movie ethics, hey? Movie?

20:36KT: Do not make that a merch, please. Unsubscribe forever.

20:41Oti: Shibuki had to do stuff to get herself out of poverty, and she got herself to a position where she was one step away to get the job that she always wanted. And then all that gets taken away, and she's put in an environment where she has to fight

20:55Oti: for her life. She's seen everyone she was with die. She's the sole survivor, and then she's put in another game.

20:55KT: But she pushed people into the fire or into the lasers.

20:55Oti: Well, there's only one way to know if it's because imagine if Arisu wasn't there to know that the BMW to get the BMW number Yeah. That was fucking perfect. Measure the building based off of Yeah.

21:17KT: And he knew how long his feet are. Like, who knows how long their feet are? I think it was at 28 centimeters or something. Like, how do you know that just offhand?

21:25Oti: Yeah. He just had to survive the only way she could, and that's just by pushing people into the doors.

21:33KT: Cool. But, yeah, I guess it's just interesting. I I guess it depends on how it's delivered because there are moments where you do understand that it is survival, and then there are moments where you besmirch my beloved Parasite.

21:43Oti: And that just comes down to whether or not they've reached a strong cohesive narrative.

21:52KT: I'm going to make sure that you're the only person in that sound clip, how dare you? But I I do wanna note on something with Shibuki before we go back to the trio. She mentioned that she worked for a company, and they were working on a real life VR sort of scenario. I kind of in my baby brain, I I took it as, a Westworld in Japan for European markets. Do you think that plays into the broader sort of optics?

22:24KT: And I guess we're going to find out because it was renewed for season two, so congratulations, but don't fuck it up on on what that means. Because they never really addressed who the greater power is.

22:36Oti: The game master. Yeah. We don't know who the game master is. It'll be very I I I don't know. I I'd be really disappointed if it was a VR thing.

22:36KT: Like a corp corporation sort of thing?

22:36Oti: Yeah. But in the end of the day, it's a game. So probably Time to play the game. Yeah. But it's not like James Marsden dying 50,000,000 times and always coming back for the pretty blonde lady. You know?

22:36KT: Okay, Oti. Thandie Newton. That's the only news that we need, man.

22:36Oti: Absolutely.

23:09KT: Absolutely. Yeah. Interest I I I do want it to be better than that. I hope it is better than that. I think for a long time, we thought it was Chishiya, which

23:22KT: maybe not. Maybe. I don't know. When when when another season opens up, it kind of just muddies things. But I guess we'll leave it, and we'll see how it goes.

23:36Oti: Well, there's a lot of directions that could take this. So I am fully optimistic about, hopefully, them just choosing the right route and opening up the the world a bit more because there's so much they can explore in this and make it even more interesting.

23:50KT: Yeah. In the perfect circle Venn diagram of KT's crying kinks, whether it's me getting old or just the the pains of the world weighing on me, this show got me. It it it got me emotionally very early, and I shed my tears where we have the first game centered around hearts. It was the wolf. The wolf and the sheep? Yeah. The wolf and sheep. So we have Arisu, Karube, Chota, and Shibuki. Mhmm. How did you feel about that game? Because I like, effortlessly without being wankers about it, there were there were twists

24:35KT: throughout these series where you think it's one way. It's more perception as opposed to being twists, really. And, you know, that the sheep had to hide from the wolf, but it was more about the wolf hiding from the sheep because they were the only person that were going to survive. What I also really appreciated about this show is it wasn't like Divergent, if anyone remembers the young adult series, shout out to Shailene Woodley, where you'll be given this puzzle, and then Shailene's character will be like, this is a simulation.

25:09KT: And then it would break the whole game, and she wins the game. I fucking hate that. Have boundaries. Right? So, you know, even within the clubs or even when we see with you know, in even in the diamond suit that we have earlier, like, there are rules. Even when we had the spades, which was the first spade game that we saw with the horse heads, there were rules to it. If you tried to cheat the rules, you'd die. Mhmm. Right? And and that was something that was very apparent with the hearts game.

25:39KT: And there came a point where all four of these guys realized that there was no way out of it. It's either they all die or one of them survives, which becomes one of the most gripping emotional moments in this series. Because all along the way, Arisu is feeling worthless. He's feeling less than, you know, maybe by his family. But in any case, he's not feeling great about himself.

26:08Oti: Yeah.

26:09KT: But he has Karube always there supporting him as well as Chota as well. And when they had the countdown and they all just resigned themselves to the fact that they are going to let Arisu live, even at some point, Shibuki stopped fighting as well, which was a very powerful

26:09Oti: No. No. Not not not until the last second.

26:09KT: But she did give up is my point.

26:09Oti: Yeah. I I guess two seconds of giving up counts. I suppose.

26:09KT: I I think one of the most beautiful shots in this series

26:39KT: is seconds to the countdown. Arisu is looking right at Karube, and Karube is not looking smoking a cigarette. And his head gets blown off. That's one of the best shots.

26:39Oti: For some reason, I thought those are another twist and just hoping that That they didn't die.

26:39KT: Yeah. Right? Yeah. That they didn't die. And then, you know, us and our little Japanese live action trying to watch this and have a good time was like, fuck you, man. Life's not fair. Just

27:07KT: bringing you back to reality. But that was one of it was one of the most compelling things I've seen in a series.

27:14Oti: Oh, for sure. For sure. Seeing them at the start where everybody wanted to be the wolf. Yeah. You know, and chasing each other around and Chota whining and being just Chota. Chota. And then when Arisu got the wolf, to see everyone realize that he is the best person Yeah. Who could probably get out of this alive. Yeah. And resign themselves to sudden death. Yeah. Oh, man. That was that was really heartbreaking. It was really heartbreaking. But you know what?

27:48KT: They did their hard work. They did their homework. They laid the foundation, and they continued to make us care and reinforce our care about these characters. Oh, for sure. And that's why it was well earned. And, you know, Arisu continuing along in the story, I felt like I was still in. Even though I felt really sad, they they had made it very resolute to me that that it had to be done, and and it is sad and it is unfortunate.

28:18KT: But, again they did the groundwork they they did their homework and I was all the way along with it and you know Arisu meeting up with Usagi was was the perfect pairing and if you think about Alice in Wonderland if you turn your pages to the you have to pay for FYR curriculum, Usagi really did play the rabbit character in Alice in Wonderland. And, you know, far be it for me to not even realize it, but there you go.

28:45Oti: Oh, yeah. For sure. I think the way they even came together and started helping each other is quite a feat by itself because everyone is in this for themselves. Yeah. And, you know, when they're playing the spade game and the guys with the horse head shooting around Yeah. You know, Arisu realize that he can't do this alone. They can't survive this without the help not helping each other. Yeah. And then when he's just blotted out, hey. The killer is on level two or some shit. Yeah.

29:17Oti: Everyone at least Usagi had the thought that this is what's needed. Yeah. And she also just jumped in, everyone just followed suit.

29:26KT: Oh, if you'll pardon the pun. Mhmm. And Usagi was instrumental

29:31Oti: at the end of the spade game because she popped out of the window out of nowhere. Yeah. And imagine if Arisu didn't call out for people to do this as a team. He was They won't everyone would have died because they had buttons on separate sides of the wall. Yeah. You had to be pressed simultaneously. Yeah. So if there's only one person there, everyone does. He was demonstrating,

29:52KT: like, leadership tea.

29:54Oti: God

29:55KT: tea. Oh, okay. Alright. Oti.

30:00Oti: You know it. Borderland gods.

30:02KT: Look at you. Mhmm. But, yeah, you you needed someone to shake things up and and play the game. Oh, yeah. And and realize that it was not all for you. And even the way that, you know, they they surmised that the horse head was shooting, but not shooting towards a particular person because that's where the safe room was. Mhmm. Right? Interesting. And and and it's one of those things where I can follow along with my dumbass and not feel like an idiot. You know what I mean? Like because I'm just enjoying everything

30:31KT: that's going along, and it's exactly what you're saying. You know, they they had laid the groundwork with that spade game for Usagi to even care to help Arisu because you can see she survived in the game a long time. Right? She probably didn't need anyone,

30:48KT: to be perfectly honest. I think it was more the hope, the hope that that that things could get better and she would have an actual partner in every sense of the word.

30:48Oti: Well, I don't see it that way. I just see it as a way that she saw that situation was dire and that without any help, they would all of them probably face death.

31:06KT: No. But how about after that where Usagi and Arisu kind of go on the rest of the series?

31:06Oti: Oh oh, for sure. I think because she sees Arisu on the floor on the road just lying there, being rained on without any hope, wanting to die.

31:06KT: Well, she kinda left him.

31:06Oti: Yeah. She left him, but then came back.

31:27Oti: She came back. Well, I think a part of him reminded of her that, you know, she probably was in that same situation when she lost her father. So

31:27KT: What a sad backstory, by the way.

31:27Oti: Yeah. Yeah. So she she just saw, you know what? I'm pulling you along, and by goddamn, you're gonna survive.

31:45KT: Yeah. It was a beautiful thing to see. I guess if I had a gripe with one of the games, not necessarily there was anything wrong with it. It it just made me roll my eyes a lot, was the tunnel game that you were talking about. It's where they have the distance to the goal. And they come across three guys, which are very reminiscent of Arisu, Karube, and Chota, too soon, I would say. And one of them has an injured leg. So they decide

32:16KT: well, he very honorably decides to leave himself there so everyone else can finish the challenge. Right? And, you know, there there's a lot that happens. There's even a fucking is it a Puma or is it a Panther?

32:30Oti: Oh, bloody

32:32KT: Yeah. A Poompanther? Mhmm. Oh, wow. That sounds like a dance hall hit of Oti. That game kind of annoyed me because it ended up being they had to just stay in the bus.

32:46Oti: But they didn't realize that. They ran all the way up to the end of the other tunnel.

32:46KT: That's what I'm saying. I didn't care for it. I thought that was a bit cheesy.

32:46Oti: But didn't you realize that they they gave us multiple hints that they were moving away from their goal?

33:00KT: No. But at that point, you think that you were supposed to run away. And then it said goal on the bus. And I'm like, piss off. That annoyed me. Every other game was masterful, but that was a bit annoying. Is it like if they let Oti do this one and not the game master?

33:14Oti: Oh. Well, I think it was quite clever because you have to follow the rules. It was clearly written. Your distance to the goal, it was zero at the start. The more they went, the farther they were from the goal.

33:14KT: I get. I'm just saying it wasn't my fave. It wasn't my fave game.

33:14Oti: Fair enough. Fair enough, Gia Giau.

33:38KT: Speaking of my fave or not sure if my fave, let's talk about Chishiya, who's the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland, and Hikari Kuina.

33:46Oti: Oh, Kuina is is amazing, isn't she? Her backstory is is really brilliant, I think.

33:52KT: Can we have more trans characters across everything? Thank you. Oh, one day,

33:58Oti: when they did the exposition of her, you know, background, they gave us little nuggets up until the fight where Kuina was fighting the Sharabi. Yeah. And everything that she'd learned and how her family or how her dad had just told her, you know, kicked her out of the house because she just wanted to be, you know, herself. Yeah. It's just hard, you know, to see her embrace or remember her teachings and just accepting the situation and fully putting herself out there that she wasn't going to be defeated by this guy. Yeah. Oh.

34:33KT: Yeah. Victor Zsasz wannabe motherfucker.

34:35Oti: Yeah. That was And he had the worst fucking backstory.

34:38KT: He was just a man that was lonely. He wasn't even lonely. He had a kid and a wife, but he was just a man that wanted to live a life, and then he just came here and started killing everyone. Yeah. And it's like, why? And then, yeah, of course, we wanted to cheer for Kuina, but, like, at that point, 100000000% cheering for you.

34:55Oti: At that point, they started giving us backstories to people we don't really care about. Yeah. I was like, we don't really need that. Yeah.

35:04KT: I also someone else we didn't need was Niragi. He was one of the henchmen at the beach. The one that kept licking everything. Oh, man. I feel like I I verbally lick everyone on this podcast, but it was too much he was too much he was and then he went on this rant about rules are worthless because we're men and we should do whatever we want with whoever we want and it wouldn't be considered the words that people call it. Nah, man. You're still assaulting people. Like, you can't it doesn't disband everything

35:43KT: just because you say it doesn't. Yeah. I was not a fan of Niragi, and I wanted him to go away.

35:43Oti: Oh, for sure. For sure.

35:43KT: Oh, and I think in Chishiya, we met a really interesting character. He was very Gin from Bleach. He was. He was so Gin. I was waiting for his sword to extend us.

36:04Oti: His zanpakuto to slice the gaming world. Oh, for sure. I think Chishiya, it was just you could tell he's super intelligent, and he cares. He doesn't even care about anyone. He's just a matter of, you know, how he's going to survive. And I thought the only person he remotely cared for is Kuina. Yeah.

36:04KT: But even then, he would have thrown her under the bus, I think.

36:04Oti: Well, he did save her though, you know, before she walked through the doors of laser beams.

36:32KT: Yeah. But also at the same time and and maybe it's just because we're we're rooting for Arisu because it's told from his point of view for a lot of the time. Maybe I would have admired Chishiya a bit more if it if we weren't coming from, you know, Arisu to survive everything. Maybe I would have cared a bit more, but the way he just so you know, without thought, threw him into the safe just so he could get the upper hand.

37:01KT: I I don't think he willfully chose for Arisu to get in trouble, but for him, it didn't matter if he did get in trouble.

37:01Oti: No. He planned for him to get in trouble because he wanted to see

37:10Oti: The reaction. The reaction of the guy where the safe is. Yeah. So he fully planned all that. He did not give a damn. But maybe sometimes in this such a in such a game, you need you need someone like him.

37:24KT: I guess so.

37:26Oti: But I hope we get to see him and Arisu in season two teaming up a bit more.

37:31KT: Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm I'm sure we're going to end up liking Chishiya. Like because usually, you need to, at some point, respect the intelligence. Right? He he's not too malicious. He's not drinking his own Kool-Aid like Hatter, for example. So, yeah, yeah, you gotta praise that. Oh, a 100%. I wanna come to the end of the series, in particular, the game of hearts. And and this is a very interesting episode. I I do like how it it really ties together everything that we've

38:11KT: learned and felt along the way, and it it does set up an interesting, you know, last few moments of the show as well. I wanna talk about Aguni, and I guess we can talk about Hatter to a certain extent. But, you know, aside from Klaus without Ben, there's really nothing to say about Hatter. You know, he he fed into his own indulgence. And, you know, as much as Aguni was around, he wasn't really kept in check. And he he that's what happened. His greed got in the way.

38:42KT: It did. And it was heartbreaking, but he had to go. Right?

38:46Oti: Yeah. And we could see Aguni really didn't mean to kill him and it was the last possible, you know. But to then go and just start killing everyone?

38:57KT: My god. Just. Yeah. And, you know, the most compelling episodes for me surrounded card games that had the hearts on them. And, you know, they kept talking about how they're leading up to the 10 of hearts, how that's a card that no one's able to get, and there's no face cards, you know, the jack, queens, and kings. And they kept talking about the importance of this 10 of hearts, and we're like, okay. Whatever. And it really did deliver in every sense of the word. It did. You know, the the fact that we had suicide,

39:35KT: which was apparently and and there was nothing to denote to it. It's just the automatic assumption that she was murdered. Mhmm. Right? And for Aguni to have known the whole time and for him to try and sacrifice himself, which in some cases you could see as cowardly because he just wanted to be killed. Yeah. Right? It really built to a lot of emotion, well earned emotion, I would say.

40:01Oti: I think in the process of trying to identify who the killer was Yep. You know, it was so interesting because Arisu had his theories and was trying to convince everyone. Yeah. But An had already identified who the killer was because she did lack she took fingerprints for the And she got knocked out. Yes. Stupid. She got Young and the Restless, and it's just

40:01KT: Oh, not Bold and the Beautiful?

40:01Oti: And Bold and the Beautiful. I'm sunset, bitch. Put whatever soap you want in there, and it'll fit it'll be fit for purpose.

40:37Oti: Yeah. Because An had already figured it out. By the time An showed up, Arisu had already explained everything, and she was she just confirmed everything pretty much. Yeah. It was inverse, the knife. Right? Meaning that it was self inflicted.

40:52KT: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. And it really it really built to you know? That's exactly what you want. Right? Like, as someone that invests their time in an eight episode series, you wanna be taken on a ride. You wanna feel the thrills. You wanna feel the highs and the lows. You wanna feel joy for Arisu and and and feel the pain, the the the unfortunate inevitable pain that Arisu had to feel, especially in the first half of the series. And it really builds into him coming into his own through every obstacle.

41:29Oti: Oh, mhmm. For sure. And I think I couldn't have reached a better ending to this season at the very least. I think it just met all my expectations and then some. Yeah. And I am just looking so much forward to that season two.

41:46KT: I'm not looking too forward to it because I'm worried. And, again, please don't fuck it up. But there there were moments, you know, in the season, not necessarily the end, kind of like the the last half of the series where it focused too much on the beach. I really thought the beach was going to be, like, a one, two, very cute, small venture because there was a lot of talk about the game master. And we never really met the game master because even when they went to that Matrix Tower looking thing,

42:18KT: everyone was gone. Everyone was dead. And it kind of reintroduced new venture. And I do hope what you're saying, it's not like a corporation thing. How what what would you be satisfied with?

42:35Oti: What would make it worth it? I don't know. I'm not looking at it in terms of, like, a Death Race scenario where it's just real people and some rich guys gambling off it.

42:35KT: Or The Hunt with Hilary Swank?

42:35Oti: Yeah. I don't know. I I'm not sure where I'd want it to go, but in between that and it being a virtual reality, I really don't want to bad either.

42:57KT: Chishiya. I think that would be good or, like, a Chishiya sort of character.

43:03KT: I don't think there's a lot of people that we've seen follow us along throughout the game room, so I don't think it's gonna be one of those, like, cockamamie, Scooby Doo, pull the mask off my face sort of thing. But, yeah, I I'm still excited to see what the next season's going to be. Like you mentioned, there were a lot of backstories. In some cases, like, Kuina, fully welcome. Thank you very much. And in other cases, please don't waste our time with these nonsense. Literally had a shop.

43:37Oti: Oh, a 100% agreed.

43:40KT: Arigato, friends and lovers. Thank you so much for joining us today this year on this nonlinear timeline. We fucking love you guys. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

43:53Oti: Just because I want you to see more of Yamazaki's work, I'd like to reference Death Note live action, the Japanese version.

44:05KT: That was a lot of, like, colons Yeah. You have to put there. And I will reference the 2019 Jay Ellis joint Escape Room. Because they say you need cloudy days to appreciate the sunshine. So go and watch something that doesn't work, and you'll fully appreciate Alice in Borderland. If you wanna fully appreciate us on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod.

44:36Oti: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

44:39KT: We're on Apple Podcast if you like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

44:45Oti: See you. Bye.