4 Blocks – Maruf is on fire

Full transcript of 4 Blocks – Maruf is on fire.

0:00KT: Hello. It's another week in the For Your Reference podcast. Just a little note here, we will be talking about the brilliant German series 4 Blocks. We would strongly urge you guys to check it out if you're able to. Amazon Prime around the world, and for Americans, HBO Max. Mhmm. Yalla Yalla. Let's get on with the show. Friends and habibis. Welcome to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Meet me at the sweet shop before familial ties turn sour. Mhmm. Mhmm. We are covering the brilliant German series 4 Blocks today.

1:10KT: Mhmm. What an exciting time, Oti. Really exciting, isn't it? You know, Oti likes to take the mantle of qualita. Always likes to remind us that he introduced Spartacus into the For Your Reference household. Rest in love and peace and power, Andy Whitfield. But hoo hoo hoo, this is all mine Oti. Mhmm. I found it and we dived right in into all of our splooshy places. Mhmm. Let's get into the stats. It was released in February 2017. They premiered the first two episodes in the Berlin International Film Festival Oti. Nice. Yes.

1:53KT: So the TNT series in Germany. We've got HBO Max in America and Amazon Prime Video around the world. Mhmm. We have director of Marvin Kren. He also writes. We've got Hanno Hackfort, Bob Konrad, and Richard Kropf. In way of cast, we have dabbled our way into German thespians Oti.

1:53Oti: Yeah. The thespian dome is strong on this one.

1:53KT: Oh, I love your dome. How about that? We have Kida Khodr Ramadan, Veysel Gelin, and Almila Bagriacik. Nice. Oh, this is a great one. This is a great one. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome, friends and lovers.

2:36KT: This is the second official warning. If you haven't watched 4 Blocks, we would absolutely recommend it. It is, I would say, the best amount of episodes. 20 episodes for one season is too long. Ten seasons are too long. No matter how great your story is, aside from Telltale, I feel like the show Walking Dead, you know, the the how how exciting can it get if you know you can have kids in a zombieland? Doesn't that just become normal panoramic Pamela Anderson life? Yeah. You're just living now.

3:15KT: Oh, but this this is full of qualita and we cannot wait to dabble in it. You know, a lot of you are nasty and you like to get spoiled in your splooshy places. Come along for the ride because we are going to ride it and snap it off. Mhmm. But I'm very excited. So let's get into first impressions, Oti. How did you feel diving into it? Because I think, generally, we cover a lot of Korean, Japanese, even Spanish, you know, sort of series and movies.

3:51KT: I don't know if this is the first that we've watched, but it's definitely a nice, you know, experience to have. So how did you feel generally watching a German series and even just the show in general?

4:06Oti: I think this is the first German show we've watched together. I think so. Because

4:12KT: Jojo Rabbit doesn't count. Right?

4:12Oti: It

4:18Oti: was really thrilling. I think the first few scenes, you know what exactly you gotta get with this show, and I was hooked. Yeah. Absolutely. I was super hooked. It's so refreshing seeing people you never see on a day to day basis on TV. Just a whole new cast world being fully developed in front of you, and I was all bought in. I was completely bought in.

4:42KT: Oh, I absolutely agree. Well, friends and lovers, as we know, Oti is is my forever and always eternal. But, you something that I'm realizing about me, I don't have a type. Exbound. Well, I feel like I can steep myself in quality. I can, you know, tantalize and sploosh myself over a lot of material. Mhmm. And if I, you know, if I ever wanted to start my rap career, Ali Toni Hamady is my type. Abbas, Kemal and Latif is my type. Morris Chestnut is my type. Daniel Dae Kim is my type. Oh, wow.

5:32KT: But Oti got that good pipe. Yeah. You know what? It's it's comforting, but it's also sad to know around the world that good looking people always get cast in things. Mhmm. Because I I you know, you know, these are characters, but they're also actors as well. But in regards to Toni, you know, Ali Toni Hamady, I was very taken by him. He was very charming, and maybe that was the most dangerous thing because he was a very dangerous man. There was thrill. There was charm. Abbas was literally DMX, like, all day, every day.

6:15KT: He I'm pretty sure I'll need to go back and watch the Hit 'Em Up video because I feel like Abbas was in that as well. And, yeah, I I just love this series. Like I said, I don't think I got a type. Everybody's my type. But Oti got that good pipe.

6:15Oti: That's Unless it's Toni's hair.

6:34Oti: He kept on talking about his hair throughout the whole Oh, yes. He had Alec Baldwin level hair. Oh, when he shaved, you're like,

6:42Oti: What'd you do, Toni?

6:42KT: Well, it's like, you know, when you're finished perusing your materials, you feel disgusted. And you're like, oh, why was I even looking at this in the first place? There shouldn't be any shave whatsoever. Your Mills and Boon erotica Oti. Mhmm. In regards to the actual series, I absolutely loved it. And and like you said, it informed very early what we were going to get in the show. I don't know if it's a new wave, but it is notable that a lot of, you know, international shows

7:19KT: have a more gritty sort of side to it. They're showing, you know, people trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. And, you know, usually, it's centering drugs. You know, we've covered Snowfall. We talk about Narcos, Gomorrah as well. There was also a Brazilian series that we started to pick up as well. Like, there are so many stories. Unfortunately, the world is being united by drugs and the ramifications and, in some cases, wealth of drugs as well. And, you know, I I really enjoyed watching it without any sort of Guten Tag reference.

7:57KT: I felt like it was very German. There there's there's, like, a teetering of using German language as well as Arabic, which I thought was really interesting. Also, the sense is that even behind closed doors, they were still speaking German to each other. Right? So it just shows how ingrained they are. And it talks about you know, I I wanna talk a bit about ethnicity and nationality, and we'll come to that when we get to the themes of the show. But, generally, I really enjoyed it. Narcos,

8:28KT: we do love, you know, a Pablo Escobar in a a a entertainment sort of format. And, you know, I I think a lot of the time, you know, even with American films and American TV shows, we get used to hearing Spanish being used in a sensual way, but also in a very, you know Oh. But can I just say, the German language is great on my ears, especially Amara Hamady? She used the German language very effectively, especially when she was getting really

9:08KT: annoyed at people. I feel like hearing the German language is very fun for me, especially hearing it in the show when people were getting angry and they were beating people up. It was a very effective language. Arabic as well. But this is a German show, so it definitely highlights it feels nice on my ears. You know, the more you watch in different languages, if you're not doing the dub version, it's nice to let it trickle into your ear. It really does. Oh, but I'm excited.

9:38KT: And, you know, this is I usually don't plug our socials until at the end of the show, but I've constantly been tweeting and Instagramming about this show. I I just post pictures of them with no context. So if you haven't been across that, maybe you should follow us or maybe you were avoiding it. Who knows? But I would implore you, friends and habibis, to check out this show. There is a whole cast of characters, and I would feel like a lot of the characters, even secondary,

10:12KT: tertiary characters, get a decent closing of their arc. Right? But before we even get to the rich characters of 4 Blocks, let's cover some themes, Oti. Mhmm. What themes have you got? I got some themes for you. Alright. You know, accidentally, maybe Freudianly, we find ourselves, you know, biting off more than perhaps we should be chewing. And we always come to economics, which is very interesting. So I just wanted to kick off in regards to social economics, which also includes the German government as well as the German police.

10:58Oti: Yeah. I think this is one of the first shows that cover sort of an organized crime family that we get to see beyond beyond the build. Like, we uncover what's behind the curtain, not only in terms of the crimes or the dealings that they're doing, but the social relationships and the social aspects of them being in a country where they're migrants, albeit the fact that they've been there since they were kids. Yeah. You know? So they're fully integrated into the society, but in a society where they don't get valued, they can't work.

11:36Oti: Because I think the social aspects of it was sort of weird to see because, apparently, from this because they had permanent residency, but they couldn't own they couldn't run their own business. And getting work, no one would hire them, so they'd end up doing menial jobs, which is fucking ridiculous. A permanent residency is just a step closer to fucking citizenship. And you can't if you can't do shit all with a permanent residency, then what do you have? And they also couldn't study Oh, dear. Either.

12:06KT: Yeah. The the the the whole government system, the welfare system that they had or at least what was portrayed to us in 4 Blocks, it really wasn't there to encourage you to do anymore and to be grateful for the menial jobs that you might come across. And that was very interesting because, you know, we have a character, Zeki, who always felt like an outsider, and we'll come to why and, you know, it validated why he felt like an outsider, but his dad didn't want him running around with the Hamadys. Right? And

12:40KT: Zeki had a moment where he was like, how are you fine and and thanking them for spitting in your face? How are you fine living your life and and seeing the way that they treat us? They see us like nothing, like animals, and you're fine with that. And and that really speaks to it because, you know, broad opt optics, yeah, drug dealing is bad. Don't do it, yeah. But at the same time, there weren't really other avenues

13:10KT: for them to explore, and and the government just kind of, you know, does the bare minimum. It it rounds them up, but it doesn't really address the true problem.

13:19Oti: Yeah. True. And it's it's one of those things where we get to see this side of the police where they keep on saying that this type of people commit the most crime, and there's this disdain. Yeah. Know? And you look at it from even from a human fucking perspective,

13:36Oti: at the end of the day, you've got to peel back and realize that without opportunities to grow, if you can't do shit all in a country and the only way for you to survive is to do, you can't even a nine to five wouldn't even cut it because you're even making enough money to support your family. You know? So there's a lot of aspects and nuances to this that no one really wanted to understand. You know? The police was just like, yeah. This bad group of people. You know? Pesky people. Pesky people.

14:03Oti: And it's fucking ridiculous because at the end of the day, they were Toni was trying really, really hard to go clean. Yeah. And he kept on being met by just hurdle after hurdle after hurdle. Yeah. You know? And when you've been applying for

14:19Oti: bloody citizenship for twenty six years, something is fucking wrong.

14:19KT: Yeah. And I I guess that's a that's an interesting thing. There was a documentary we watched on Netflix. It was about the economy of drugs. It might even be called that. And I think the first episode actually, obviously, the first episode was about Colombia. But then they also had an episode about Kenya as well. Like, it just shows around the world, yeah, it's not great, but given the circumstances, given the lack of opportunities,

14:47KT: what else is there? Not to say that that's what you should fall into, but it's very easy to, you know, poo poo and besmirch a demographic of people in a lower sort of status without even realizing that they were never really set up to succeed in the first place. And the fact that they can have a visa and keep pushing it for twenty six years isn't fair and it isn't right, but it's probably legal.

15:12Oti: Yeah. It's just one of those things that you when watching this, I just kept nodding to myself and thinking, fucking hell. If if I was brought up in a situation where I don't have basic fucking rights at all, then what's the point?

15:27KT: Yeah. It's interesting. And I love how the show, not even in a wankery way, it would just have this commentary. I'll leave it for later in the episode, but there is a moment between Amara and a police officer, and you realize they don't fucking care about these people. No. And, you know, just generally,

15:48KT: you know, without getting too real into the real world, it bothers me when we watch TV shows and movies, and police will say, I'll protect you. Tell me everything you know, and I'll protect you. And if they don't end up protecting them, it it's of no consequence, really.

16:05Oti: Yeah. Because no one fucking cares.

16:07KT: Yeah. But I I thought the the socioeconomic aspect, at least specifically in regards to Germany, was very interesting. And I like how it didn't shy away, and it just very, you know, very directly in a German show displayed that as well. Yeah. And also, it got to a point and maybe it's more of a story and not trying to reflect real life too much. It got to a point where there were other people doing the same thing, dealing drugs, having their own crime families, but they just kept on the Hamadys.

16:40Oti: No. There there was it was God, Target locked me. Yeah. Nothing would nothing got them off their zone. You know? It was just ridiculous,

16:51Oti: the insistence of bringing especially the Hamadys down.

16:51KT: Yeah. The only other thing I will say in regards to the police is, you know, there are some people that are well meaning and well-to-do and, at some cases, feel like they went too far. But you're still in the same room that chooses to use disgusting language about people, about people that you're supposed to be serving and about people that you're supposed to be protecting. Right?

17:18KT: And I just I don't know. There were moments where I'm like, you're not any better because you're there with them. Yeah. Right? Let's move on to the next theme. I wanna talk about the family rules. You know? The kissing of the ring, if you will. I I thought it was interesting. You know, through our watching experiences, there are different portrayals of crime families and the way that things run. But in most cases, there's some sort of hierarchy. And no matter how great you are,

17:49KT: if you're not part of the family, you can only rise so high. And if you're not, like, direct family, you can only get so far.

17:58Oti: Yeah. We saw this affect Zeki because Zeki was willing to do pretty much everything and anything

18:05Oti: for the Hamadys.

18:05KT: Do you think he was a bit starry eyed, or do you think he just accepted there was a situation and he just wanted to get his hands dirty?

18:12Oti: No. He he thought there was room for him to grow and be part of the family, but, you know, unless you're directly connected to them, you're never really going up up the ranks. Yeah. You know? Like, saw Toni's right hand man. He was he knew the business through and through, but at the end of the day, he still went to Abbas who was a bit not who was not equipped to lead anything, really. You know, everyone needs a right hand man.

18:41KT: And we had Gustavo in Narcos. I think he was relative to Abbas, he was a bit more level headed. But Abbas, you couldn't control him. No. Not even Toni, his older brother. No. Like, the he if he wanted to go on a rampage or if he wanted to be like Jerome from Snowfall, he would grab a shotgun and get carried away.

19:04Oti: Yep. Ask questions after. Definitely.

19:08KT: Yeah. It was interesting, and it was a bit heartbreaking near the end. You know, Kemal is very loyal to the Hamady family. He also is a Hamady, but he's not ever going to rise to, you know, prominence. And I'm I'm I feel like he accepted that, you know, about the hierarchy, but it is sad to see that he was so loyal. And, you know, you even mentioned while we're watching, he was key

19:36KT: to a lot of not just the cleanup, but he was key to the functioning and the operations of the family.

19:36Oti: Oh, yeah. He was mister dependable,

19:45Oti: you know, especially for Toni. Mhmm. And, yeah, and one of the things that really stood out for me, at least in this, is that when Toni stepped down, you know, and Abbas took the helm, Kemal had to look for a way to survive because he knew Abbas would probably sink the ship. Just burn it all to the ground.

20:05KT: Yeah. Let's move on. You know, being raised as Christians, you know, even living in a world that is very Christian centric, whether it's Catholic or any other sort of denomination, it's very normal to see mass. It's very normal to see prayers, like Christian prayers in TV shows and movies. It it becomes, like, part of the background at some point. It's it's even if you aren't Christian or you were raised Christian, there's a lot of media that you probably have consumed where it's just so normal. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about,

20:43KT: you know, that we are centering around a Muslim family and the way it was portrayed on the show because I guess this is just my opportunity to give plaudits to the show because not only did we see a Muslim family, but we were able to see more than at least what I feel like I've seen in a long time. You know, I I would say Ramy is probably the first example that I can say that we were taken more than what I've seen in regards to Islam and and Muslim people living, breathing, practicing rituals.

21:20KT: And to further that with 4 Blocks, I really appreciated it. And I also appreciated how, you know, how deep they wanted to get with the show. And what I mean by that is, you know, there can be a trepidation of telling your story because if people don't care to do any research and if they wanna be a dickhead about it, they can just base their opinions on that so usually you know with stories you don't want to have too harsh of a betrayal because then you know dickheads will think that about your people right

21:56KT: But I really like that they had, you know, really good natured characters, but then you had characters that just wanted to fuck shit up. Obviously, Abbas is an example of that. But then, you know, Abbas also wasn't so kind to his wife. We also had instances where, you know, Amara, in particular, she felt like she wasn't in the marriage anymore either. And maybe it isn't groundbreaking. Maybe I need to broaden my watching experiences. But to have a Muslim woman be able to express how she felt, being able to explore that storyline, even Jamila,

22:38KT: who we'll come to later, she has a very hurtful, sad sort of storyline as well. And I just appreciated how deep and how far the show wanted to go in regards to exploring different sort of storylines of Muslim characters?

22:55Oti: Yeah. Fully great. And I think at the heart of it stood Toni. You know? Toni

23:01Oti: had the heart and had the the the the compassion to to go beyond all that, you know, at the end of the day, he wanted everyone in his family to be okay. Yeah. And when he when he found out that Amara would be running away with Vince, he did not bat an eye because he knew at the end of the day, he did not want to be in this game, so why should Amara be married into it? Beautiful. You know?

23:23Oti: And it it just paints you a picture because if if if that was Abbas, no one goes anywhere. Everyone toes the line, and that's how it would have been. Yeah. You know, Toni painted a picture of, yes, I'm here. Yes, I'm doing this, but I'm only doing this based off my circumstance. Yeah. And once I am out, I am out.

23:23KT: Well, I it's yeah. I I don't think he indulged in it. He did it because it was necessary,

23:48KT: and I think Abbas got off on being the boss and and and living that, you know, Hamady life.

23:56Oti: Yeah.

23:57KT: I must say, I feel like this show definitely deserves a lot of time and attention outside of Germany because, you know, even trying to watch interviews of this show and cast interviews, it was all in German. And I had to do my research by listening to German hip hop. Veysel, our Abbas, he raps exactly the way you think he would rap. Massiv, who plays Latif Hamady, He the first song, sounded very gentle, but then I went into his other songs. He actually has a song Latif,

24:36KT: and it sounds exactly the way you think it would. But, yeah, I just love this show. I love this show so much, and I love how it took us much further than not not to say that it didn't need to, but I really love the depth of layer that the characters had and the genuine conflict, you know, even when you're talking about Toni, trying to traverse the legitimate world, so to speak, and the crime world. The last theme that I wanna talk about is ethnicity versus nationality.

25:12KT: And and something that you said earlier really strikes a chord because a lot of them were there since they were kids. A lot of these actors are German as well that grew up in Germany. And it's very interesting because you have a lot of storylines, and there's also a lot of dialogue in the series where, you know, Toni and Abbas in particular will talk about Beirut. And, you know, there there are moments where, you know, they'll need to flee.

25:44KT: And, you know, there's talks of how it will never really feel like home. Germany is home. And I really appreciated the sentiment because, you know, you can keep it very plain and on the surface, but, again, there's so much multidimension and layer to this show. You know, they're they're from Beirut, but they're also German as well.

26:07Oti: Yeah. I I think it spoke to the bigger picture of, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of the times, people look at ethnicity first Yeah. Before anything else. And it doesn't really matter whether you're born there or not. They'll see who you are, you know, by your appearance, and that's where they'll cluster or label you as, which is sad. It's sad because we see how the ingrained culture of how they're treated

26:34Oti: Yeah. Because we see how it all just plays a part in in in this sort of spiraling life cycle. Yeah. It's never changing because that's how it is. And until it changes the policy change from up top, then it's just shit going

26:50Oti: downhill.

26:50KT: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I really love that sentiment that you mentioned. People see ethnicity before nationality, and that's a 100% on the coin. Is that a phrase?

27:02Oti: Yeah. Who can make it one? In the FYR curriculum? Yeah. Just let Abbas box it. Everyone will back off. Wow.

27:13KT: But it it was interesting because, you know, aside from the subtitles, it's all subtitled in English, but if you're paying attention, you can hear that they're going back and forth between German and Arabic. I think the only times we didn't see subtitles when they were doing like spiritual sort of prayers. But it was interesting to hear it because,

27:35KT: like I said, for the most part, even when they're behind closed doors, they're still speaking German. And I think that was a great way and a very natural way of showing that you aren't just who you are from where you came from. It's also where you were raised as well. Yeah. Well, let's talk about who raises me up. Ali Toni Hamady.

28:01Oti: Man, Toni, Toni, Toni. Oh, okay.

28:04KT: Are you the extra Tony in Son of Zorn?

28:04Oti: Yeah. I am.

28:08Oti: Son of Zorn was slept on. I don't know. People just hated on it too much.

28:13KT: Needed a second season. Yeah. People don't know what they're getting. We fucking love Cheryl Hines. Yeah.

28:19Oti: Oh, but, man, Toni Toni is the heart and soul of this. Yeah. He he you know, we we we get to buy into his vision, and we want to see him succeed. And with every sort of hurdle, we were latching with him. We were feeling this pain. We were feeling his happiness or whatever emotion he might be experiencing because we're so bought into him. He has this way to just the way he carries himself that is so believing. Mhmm. He takes you along the journey.

28:49Oti: You want the best for him and Kalila as well. Answering. Answering. Very few shows have I seen or watched recently that I've bonded with a character like this Yeah. That I've felt so much for him. And I think it's just how the story has been told. Instant. Like, instant, like, character attachment. Right? Mhmm. You know, usually, you'd need a season, you know, to get on board with someone. Yeah. But, no, man. It was some instant hits out here. Oh, absolutely.

29:19KT: Absolutely. And we will scour the world, you know, for stories that resonate with us. And, you know, Toni was definitely one that you wanted to root for. Couldn't help but think about Stringer Bell from The Wire. You know? I'm trying to think of a successful journey to legitimacy from, you know, the drug business, and I can't think of any. But, yeah, it was interesting to see him try and navigate that. And, you know, there's a lot of commentary around it, even the fact that we have a beloved friend of his from many decades ago,

30:02KT: Vince. Right? So Toni kept him around because he liked him, but he was German. And, again, if we're talking about the family rules, he was always kind of kept at arm's length. Abbas immediately rejected him. Like, he just he's like, he was already suspicious of him. I think Kemal was a bit fine with him because he remembers him. But what Toni forgot is Vince went away because of him.

30:29Oti: Yep.

30:30KT: Not to the level of Zeki having to sacrifice and be the scapegoat, but Vince went to jail because of his Hamady doings.

30:38Oti: Yeah. And apparently, Toni didn't even but an hour even go visit. Nothing.

30:43KT: Nothing. Well, I guess that makes us feel better because he didn't go and visit. Because it explained an

30:48Oti: aspect of Vince why he would do such a thing. You know? If they were really that close when they were younger, then what happened? And then we get to learn how it all transpired. And you're like, oh, shit. I'll be pissed off too. Yeah. Yeah. And then but in regards to Vince,

31:05KT: he utilized his friendship, exploited, you know, the the intimacy and friendship that they had to hold off the visa. You know? I think it became a probationary visa. They demoted his visa. Right? Because he knew that he would be forced into a corner and they could get further evidence against him. And, you know, I don't know how you felt, but at the time, I was fucking annoyed. Like, that pissed me off.

31:33Oti: Yeah. I felt like he was a step too far, but especially with Vince knowing how the inner workings and how Toni is as a person Yeah. And as a character, it it just felt a bit too harsh. Yeah. You know? By the end of the day, he's police, and they had this sort of view of the bottom line where take down the Hamadys no matter fucking what. Yeah.

31:57KT: And I think you called it pretty early in the series that Vince was going to double cross. And I'm like, nah, man. We're riding high, guy. But, you know, you were obviously correct. And one of Toni's other adversaries

32:13KT: was Hagen Kutscha.

32:13Oti: You know who Kutscha reminds me of? The cop in Monster. Was it Lunge?

32:20KT: Yeah. And he was German as well. Look at us. Aside from an anime, this is the most related time to make that reference, Oti. But, yeah, he was just you know, he had a boner for Toni. I don't blame him. But he had a boner for Toni, and he wouldn't stop. And he didn't even care. I'm pretty sure in the first season, or Staffel, if you're German, it was surrounding the Turkish people as well. Yeah. But he didn't care. He was going straight for the Hamadys.

32:52Oti: Yeah. Because you have the Turkish gang running rampant. Yeah. And they would just look aside because it's not Hamady. They they had full on leather jackets. Like, they were a full on gang. They were killing people and just nothing.

33:06KT: Nothing. Like, if we're going to have Gethics, so gang ethics, if we're gonna have Gethics, that Turkish gang was much more violent. They were much more brazen, I would say. Because like you said, they were dropping bodies in the street. Yeah. It's just weird. It was really weird just seeing everything unfold. Yeah. Because Kutscha utilized them to get to Toni. It was fucking wild. So so let's let's stay in Toni's world a little bit longer. Let's talk about Kalila. Let's talk about Syrian.

33:40Oti: Oh, man. I loved Kalila. I think the first especially the first two seasons where Kalila is fully bought in and she was a ride to ride or die, I loved her. She knew what she had. She was like, you know what, Toni? This is what we have to do for now. Yep. But we know a bigger picture. That's where we are heading. Yep. And then there was a script slip.

34:03KT: Oh.

34:03Oti: Where

34:06Oti: we where Kalila turned into Carmela in the last season of Sopranos Yeah. Where she was just fucking throwing everything outside and just, ugh, mourning over everything, being down over everything, feeling like Toni is just the worst sort of person in the world. Albeit her feeling good because Toni got a you know? There's here's the thing. Toni bought the citizen citizenship

34:31Oti: Yeah. Or bribed someone for the citizenship. Well, sometimes that's how you get it done. She was happy with that. Yeah. You know? Albeit criticizing Toni for everything else that he does, you know, being a crime boss. Yeah. Like, there were moments where her criticism of Toni would would not be applicable through the board. You know? If you're pissed at Toni for being a crime boss, be pissed of him being a crime boss all the time. When it benefits you. Not when it benefits you specifically.

34:58KT: And she got so mad, but then she moved in, and then somehow she had, like, a Bold and the Beautiful Amnesia storyline, and she she got her morals about her. She's like, how could you do this? And it's like, mate, you've been with him for twenty six years. You've seen him grow from the ground up, from the poker machines that they had to a fully fledged, you know, operation. And I I just I didn't care for it. I I don't know if it's necessarily me applying it to real life people.

35:32KT: I am trying to stay in the fantasy of the show. But if you forgive him, forgive him. Right? Mhmm. Friends and lovers, anyone else that identifies, if you forgive someone, forgive them. No one's forcing you to forgive them. But if you forgive them, don't bring that shit up. It's done. Right? Yep. I'll come and live in this big fancy house, but I'm gonna be annoyed at you. Nah, man. We're not about that, bruv. Right? And, you know, even when she was working, you know, with the refugees

36:05KT: and, trying to allocate them into services and resources, she was getting really annoyed at the kids because there were murmurings that they were going to embark their life of crime. Right? And obviously, we're not saying it's right, but let's take a bigger picture on what's available for these people. Like, I just didn't care for her uppiness and her judginess because that's exactly how they were able to survive. How do you think you're living in such a nice apartment

36:37KT: furthering on to the house that we have later on in the series? How do you even think you got that? Because it seems like nothing else nothing lower than that would be acceptable to you. And how about where the people that you're helping, they are not living anywhere close to where you're living. Nope. So how can you even open your mouth to say such things? How can you even twist your nose to make such, you know, judgmental faces? I

37:03KT: just I didn't care for I was very confused that you said that you love Kalila because that's a really strong way to start.

37:11Oti: Well, she did have I think it she unraveled when the series continued just like Carmela. You know, it felt it felt it felt really sad even at the end when she got shot, you know, because we knew there's only one where that was gonna end. Yeah. Nowhere she's surviving. And I was like, oh, man. This breaks Toni. Once that happened, I knew fucking Toni is not gonna get out of there alive.

37:36KT: Oh, absolutely.

37:37Oti: Sealed and, you know, delivered. Yeah. Delivered. Yeah. Is it? But

37:44KT: I yeah. There there was no way that he and I think it was a cruel lesson for Toni as well that you need to make a choice. And, unfortunately, it just but it that was very upsetting. It was very upsetting. I didn't even think Toni would survive, to be honest.

38:03Oti: Yeah.

38:04KT: But, you know, he he did even though the the kids on the train, I think, was a very cute moment. It was. Thinking they spotted Toni and he said his name was Ali instead. I felt really, really sorry for Surin. There was a really sad and heartbreaking moment where Toni wanted to see her and give her the shoes, but the shoes don't fit anymore because, you know, far be it from him, he tried so much, but he hasn't seen his daughter long enough to know that she's grown and she's growing without him. You

38:37KT: know, even the moment where she's so upset she doesn't wanna say bye to him and he got her that pony.

38:44Oti: Yeah. It's some heartbreaking shit, man. Yeah. It was heartbreaking knowing that that's the last memory she's going to have of her father. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

38:54KT: Let's move on. Let's talk about Abbas. He is a whole character.

39:00Oti: And then some. Wow. He like you said, he's definitely Gustavo. He is fully loyal, though. He is loyal to Toni. He he I wouldn't say he holds family above all else because we get to see him kill his uncle. Yeah. He's the worst fucking liar. He doesn't even know how to cover his fucking tracks. Yeah. But we love him. There's an endearing aspect of Abbas that you just can't fully hate, you know, his

39:29Oti: his abusive

39:29KT: I love how that's the first thing you say after what you just said. But okay.

39:36Oti: No. Because they kept on ping ponging with our emotions throughout the whole show

39:36KT: They did. Yeah.

39:36Oti: When it came to Abbas. Especially with him. Yeah. You know? One minute, you're fully on the Abbas camp, and then the next, Abbas is doing some weird shit. And you're like, what? Come on, Abbas. You know better.

39:52KT: Yeah. You know what? I think he had you at the Fighting and Versace boxes. Yeah. Think I think that's what that's kind of encapsulates his whole character. Him and Ava had a very interesting relationship. It was unfortunate that he was abusive to her, but they were genuine moments of love as well. And it it it's fucking disgusting, and it's unfortunate that we live in a world where, you know, you you can love someone and also abuse them as well. But there were some real moments, you know, of love and understanding between Abbas and Ava.

40:31Oti: Yeah. There were. And to me, I think the biggest the biggest shock was that Ava actually loved Abbas.

40:31KT: You didn't think she loved him?

40:31Oti: At the start, I was just I just thought she was in it for the money and for the Versace boxes, but she wasn't. You know? Those numerous times where she proved her loyalty to Abbas and a love for Abbas Yeah. That even Toni could not see. Because, you know, Toni had a feeling about Ava. Yeah. You know, at the end, of course, Toni's

41:01Oti: foreboding feeling when it came to her got realized. Mhmm. But before that, she gave us moments where, in her mind, all she did was for was for her and Abbas.

41:01KT: You know, you you talked about Kalila,

41:14KT: you know, starting but wavering as a ride or die. Ava was a ride or die. Even to the point where it was kind of detrimental to Abbas because the last thing Abbas needed was someone smoking his own fumes. Like, she kind of hyped him up too much to the point where he would see Toni as an enemy, which makes no fucking sense. Even you doubted that Toni, you know when Toni had his, you know,

41:44KT: heist moment and he had his moment of brilliance and he saved Abbas, you thought he just left him to the lurch to the police.

41:44Oti: Thought he just said that I thought he let the police to get Abbas, and he would walk away. I didn't know there was an underlying plan. Just because of how he feels about Ava and how that all transpires, at the end of the day, I think their Bond as Brothers

42:08Oti: was just beautiful to see. You know?

42:08KT: Bonds of Brothers. Is that your screenplay?

42:08Oti: It it is. It is. It it gave me, like, Scofield Link vibes, man.

42:08KT: You just needed to bring up Prison Break, didn't you?

42:08Oti: I did.

42:23KT: Ava, I think, is is the most saddest that I will reflect on in regards to cocking up a character. They really ruined her character. You know, they they they touched on a lot throughout the series how she felt like she was an outsider because she wasn't a Hamady. You know? She wasn't even Lebanese. Yeah. Right? And you could see that she she had tried so hard, and she even continues to try to make an effort, especially with Amara and Kalila,

42:56KT: you know, when they would never accept her. But she keeps trying because she fucking loves so much. And it really bothered me. And I I'm trying to think of a moment where I've been so frustrated with the dealing of a character than Ava because she loved Abbas so much. And for me, that was beyond question. It was undeniable how much she loved Abbas. Again, it was a bit dangerous at times how she would always

43:24KT: side with him and be whispering in his ear. But it bothered me that she was the one that was the demise of the Hamady empire. That bothered me.

43:36Oti: True. I think at the end when she got preggers, she had to think beyond herself and Abbas. Their baby. You know? And I think that just sort of changed the dynamic a bit where she thought, let's get ours, Abbas. I'll swindle some money for us. You know? It I don't think she meant it in a way that she'd want to run a run off with just a baby and leave Abbas in the lurch.

44:03Oti: Nothing like that. But what she doesn't get is Abbas would never betray Toni like that. Yeah. You know? And as much as she's been trying to put words in Abbas's ear throughout the whole show, at the end of the day, Abbas and Toni have been through some really some shit. They've grown up together. Yeah. And nothing was ever gonna change that. And Toni brought the red brick from their house in Beirut

44:28Oti: Yeah. Because he wanted to prove to Abbas he never forgot where he came from.

44:28KT: Are you kidding me? Yeah. I do not wanna hear any excuses about not being able to write wholly resonating stories because that tore me up in a way that I will never recover. That brotherly bond was so beautiful. And may I say, juxtaposedly, delicate. The love that Toni and Abbas had between each other was very delicate. Yeah. And I think because of, you know, the the contrast to the grittiness of their reality,

45:07KT: it really stood up, and it it really had a message that we're going to find a way together. And I absolutely love that. The thing about Ava, I will say is, I don't think you're realizing she was trying to plan a life away from there. Yeah. She wanted to run off. She wanted to go back home, take Abbas, but Abbas was never going to leave.

45:31Oti: I reckon if she had stole from these Turkish people, Abbas would have left. There was literally nothing for them in Germany anymore, especially considering the police were coming after them. Mhmm. You know, things were all coming to an end, and Abbas just wanted to be with Ava. You know? And once she once he learned of the betrayal, there was only one where I saw that ending. Yeah. You know? Abbas was never gonna hand hand her over to to Muhammad. That will never happen.

45:59Oti: Yeah. You know? He he did it himself, and I think there's something Shakespearean about it.

46:07KT: Well and I think also the fact that they chose that Abbas didn't kill her because it was kind of written as like an accident. I think that I I I like the way they did that. Yeah. Yeah. Because he would never do that intentionally.

46:23Oti: He would have probably tried to just run away with all some shit after after a couple of hours relaxing.

46:30KT: I think it was the only reprieve I felt of the betrayal of the way they you know, they they did her dirty. Like, they really did Ava dirty. And even, you know, when they were planning for the wedding, Abbas is like, my family's not coming to our wedding. Like, it's just I just wanted her to have a moment. And, unfortunately, it was dignity, the fact that Abbas wasn't the one to kill her, but at least she could have that in her last moment.

46:30Oti: Oh, for sure. Her burial was something else, man, though.

46:58Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Just the way they got married,

47:02KT: Well oh, wow. Yeah. Speaking of burial, I wanna talk just a little bit about Ibrahim. So as far as we understand, Ibrahim is Toni and Abbas's uncle. He's kind of the granddaddy in regards to the Hamady crime family. And, you know, he's so powerful, he just sits there and does nothing. I'm sure tending bees. I'm sure tending to the beehive is a whole another thing. But, you know, we get the indication

47:32KT: that, you know, he's done he's gone those strides. He's done the work. And now he's just sitting at his claimful right. Yeah. Yeah? And Toni was the one that would succeed him. What was very interesting about Ibrahim was he didn't really mince words. So when he had that exchange with Abbas, it wasn't going to end well. No.

47:56Oti: I think that was to his failure. I think one of the best things about or at least one of the things that you should have as a leader is know who you're fucking talking to. Yeah. There's certain ways you just don't talk to certain people, and in this case, Abbas. Oh, absolutely. Once once the Turkish guys came to raid his home Yeah. And him calling out to Abbas after telling Abbas to leave the country and yeah. Never What the fuck did you expect? Abbas is all fucking hot.

48:29Oti: Yeah. He's all fucking emotions. He doesn't even think that much. Yeah. So for you to really rally him and upset him and then think he's going to come to your fucking rescue after you've ex excommunicated

48:40Oti: him.

48:40KT: Yeah. Not gonna work, mate. How funny when he was getting really deep and he was feeling all of his wisdom. He was talking about how the the the dad would say Toni is the head and Abbas is the fist. And he's like, fuck off. My dad never said that.

48:58Oti: Yeah. I'd like to call out my parents for some bullshit they've said throughout the years. I was like, shit. That didn't happen?

49:04KT: But, yeah, it it was interesting to see, you know, super old school crime boss, like Ibrahim, try and rein in Abbas, and it's like, you can't do that.

49:04Oti: Maybe

49:18Oti: it's definitely to Toni, but you couldn't do that to Abbas. It's like the gang that took over Napoli after Genny left. You know? Yeah. Those guys were in Gomorrah, that is. Those guys were just terror ablaze. They did real thinking, and it was just anarchy.

49:32KT: Yeah. But we love Ciro. We do love we do. We do. So let's move on. I wanna talk about Latif, and I also wanna talk about Amara. And I guess we can bring in Vince as well. Yeah. So we get to see Latif, you know, at the start of the show. He gets

49:49Oti: arrested, gets released, and then he just goes he's just in the background from then on, you know, but the one stunning thing about Latif is he's a fucking gentle giant. Oh, can I just say, my favorite was Staffel three Latif? Oh my.

50:05KT: Oh.

50:06Oti: Man, Latif just loved, loved, loved his family. Yeah. You know? When he found out that Amara wanted to run away with Vince, it broke his heart. Yeah. You could actually see he was heartbroken.

50:18KT: It wasn't, like, toxic masculinity.

50:21Oti: He wasn't pride or anything. Yeah. Nah. It was just like it felt like to him, it felt like it came out of nowhere.

50:27KT: Where did it go wrong, baby? Exactly. I knew about it. I just didn't care. We need, like, an R and B Latif song.

50:38Oti: It was insane. He really loved Amara and the kids. Yeah. Even when Amara was when he told Amara to go away, and he would take the kids. He'd take care of the kids. Yeah. Make dinner, take them to school. I was like, fuck. I would not see Latif doing this. I would not see Abbas doing that. Oh, well, yeah. Obviously. Abbas would probably get someone else to do it. I thought Latif was going to find a relative or, like, get someone Just hire someone. Yeah. He

51:07Oti: did not. He handled his own business, which is really surprising.

51:11KT: I think he was probably the most content with his life. Like, you know, he he was good at what he did, but also at the same time, he probably would have been fine working anywhere else. He was happy with Amara. He he loved his children. And I guess, you know, in stories, when you have characters that are content, they usually don't make it, unfortunately.

51:33Oti: Yeah. I think one of the the best parts for me was when he was really angry with Amara, you know, for taking the kids and running away. Yeah. But Toni told him, you know, do you wanna grow up like us without fathers? Oh. Do you want your kids to grow up like that? And he was like, oh my god. They show fucking house layers for days.

51:33KT: Oh, absolutely.

51:56KT: Absolutely.

51:57Oti: So once I knew that he was going to at least go back to Amara, I knew something. They they gotta pull something. It was either Amara was to go or he was to go. And,

52:09KT: you know, the problem with me is when I get attached to characters, I don't wanna face what's about to happen. And that scene where he gets gunned down

52:09Oti: I told you.

52:09KT: Yeah. I knew it because there was so much, like there was a jovial

52:26KT: nature in the air, and Amara was looking very lovingly out the window. She actually going to give him another chance of being in a relationship with him. Yeah. And Latif was looking the best he could ever be, and I felt like he was looking at me, and I was having a good time looking at Latif. I got it. Like, I got the sense, you know, a lot of the time leading up to these sort of emotional deaths, it all seems too perfect. And that's exactly what it felt like. But

52:54Oti: it didn't detract from the emotion. You know? Oh, no. Like, you felt it. You just sawing Latif fall down and lie there dead. It was just oh my god, man. And Amara writing to him and being all teary and oh, they show him. This show, Marvin Kren fucking needs to win all the awards.

53:15KT: And all of our splooshes, Oti. But and then they had an annoying scene after with the news reports just really you know, maybe they didn't care and maybe they don't need to care, but it was so disgusting the way they just you rattled off his life. Like, he was just part of the crime. That's why. Just another guy. You know? Yeah. You know? And I I just didn't care for it. And, when you get us to sexy Avatar tentacle attached to characters, that's what happens. Oh, yeah. For sure.

53:46Oti: For sure.

53:47KT: Let's talk a little bit about Kemal. I feel like Kemal did not get enough of the attention, but he also doesn't seem like the sort of guy that craves attention. He just gets the job done.

54:01Oti: Yeah. I think he was the perfect 2IC. You know? He he did his work for Toni. He respected Toni's decision. He can tell that he went with anything Toni said because there's that level of, you know, whatever Toni would fucking do is for the betterment of the family. Yeah. And at the end of the day, when he got passed up for the promotion, I think it really hurt him. Yeah. He didn't see why it was Abbas. Logically, you can say that family,

54:27Oti: it Abbas is Toni's brother, so, of course, it has to go to him. But at the end of the day, I think it was Kemal's to lose.

54:34KT: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I I even feel betrayal for both of us. There was a glimmer where we kinda doubted him that maybe he didn't, and I feel disgusting that I even thought, for even a moment, but even that moment, I'm disgusted by because he was loyal

54:52KT: till the end.

54:52Oti: Oh, for sure. For sure.

54:56KT: I wanna talk a little bit about Maruf. So Maruf is Kemal's nephew, and, you know, I think that kind of saved him because he did a lot of stupid shit. Maybe it's because he's younger, but he did a lot of stupid shit. But Kemal, because he was so upstanding

55:12KT: and everyone respected Kemal, Maruf kind of got away with a lot of stuff.

55:12Oti: Yeah. He got away with a lot of stuff. He's young. He didn't really he was dumb. He really didn't think about the bigger picture, you know, until met Zeki. And, you know, it's it's one of those things where he just thought that, you know, his his pursuit of Jamila, he was like, oh, if Jamila sees that I have all the money, she'd come to me because that's the lifestyle she's used to. And it got really cringe.

55:42Oti: Yeah. Like, Mae, just fucking walk away at this point.

55:45KT: But it was interesting because he wanted to carry the tradition, the not so great traditions that don't really stand up to you know women being independent of aga aga I'm man take care of you right and interestingly I'm glad they didn't continue the series because I don't really want to see Maruf's rise to eminence I don't think he deserved it it also feels like he snitched Yeah. Because he is in a high enough rank that they should have arrested him, but he didn't get arrested.

56:22Oti: True. Agreed. Like, there's also an interesting aspect with Maruf dating a black girl.

56:22KT: Was I waiting for you to bring it up.

56:22Oti: No. Because because we saw black characters, and all the black characters sort of played a a level just like the street dealers and shit. Yeah. You know? And that was their level. And then we saw him dating this black girl and how he was perceived in the family. Like, that was just a no fucking go. Yeah. And Maruf not being able to stand up for her or to to his family,

56:51Oti: you know, to justify justify or whatever. Whatever. Don't Don't even tell him to fucking piss off his son of a business. He couldn't do that. You know? That was another dynamic where I think a lot of shows would try and shy away from. Yeah. But at least we got an aspect of a bit of realism because we know this shit happens all the time. Oh, absolutely.

57:10KT: And, you know, I am a a valiant lover of love. Go and listen to our Happiest Season episode. I don't have a lot of graces for people that don't stand up for people that they love, especially at the hands of family, religion, whatever have you. So that that moment particularly bothered me. And it's interesting you bring it up about the hierarchy. There's something to be said about hatred from migrants to other migrants. And I'm sure someone smarter knows the actual term for it, but it's that ingrained,

57:49KT: like, we were treated like garbage and to feel like animals, so let's treat the other people like garbage to feel like animals. And it's it was a very interesting sort of dynamic. Even when Kemal saw them at the stoplight. Right, and it was, like, pulling Maruf out of the car, there's still that ugly, you know, attitudes towards other races. Yeah. Even if you've gone through a hard time, apparently, you can still be dicks to other people, unfortunately.

58:19Oti: Yeah, man. I think I think black people just get the brunt of all of it. But, yeah, I think at least they did a good job in portraying that. There's definitely talking points there. You know, we've even talked about this when we guested in Natalie's podcast.

58:19KT: Oh, Some Kind of Brown. Thank you, Oti.

58:19Oti: Yeah. So it it it does happen. It's out there, and it's just good that it's being

58:45Oti: shown.

58:45KT: Yeah. You know, self love is very important. But if you do love others, especially in a romantic way, don't hide from them because of family or religion or expectations or whatever because the last thing you want for someone you love is for them to feel less

59:06Oti: facts

59:07KT: facts indeed let's talk about Zeki Zeki is a whole character as well. I didn't want him to come back, to be honest. He really kind of tried to parade all of this success he had in another town. But it's like, if you were that successful, why did you come back, mate?

59:27Oti: He came back because he had something to prove. He wanted to prove to himself that he could do what Toni does. He can be the next Toni.

59:27KT: So it was Vince two point o?

59:27Oti: Yeah. You know, and and and it's polar opposite of Issam because Issam when Issam left, he fucking stayed out. Yeah. He knew that this is not my life, and they and I and he fucked off. Yeah. Zeki was about to die. Yeah. And it was just for his quick fucking thinking

59:55Oti: and his he had his he had some aspects of Asha. You know? He was fucking conniving to to a fault. And he survived just by fucking hair. Yeah. But he still came back. He should have just stayed out. Yeah. He should have stayed out.

59:55KT: I was surprised that Maruf even, you know, joined him,

60:13KT: you know, in trying to take down the Hamadys. And it was interesting. I also didn't understand how Latif didn't pick up on that, but I guess they needed the story to continue along. While we're talking about Zeki and Maruf's little ventures, one of my favorite moments in the series was Kemal and that real estate guy. I just like the way Kemal had his own little adventures on the side. It was sad to see that he didn't seem to have, you know, a family that he was growing and cultivating

60:46KT: of his own, but it was nice that it was taking care of his mom. Oh, for sure. Okay. You know, we talk a lot about power hierarchy and the power struggle that we had within 4 Blocks. Let's just quickly finish off with Muhammad.

61:01Oti: So he leads he he I I don't think I've ever hated anyone as much as Muhammad because he is all about himself. Yeah. You know, you can't trust him for shit. Yeah. He he makes deals, and he backs out on them. He's double crossing, two bit faced nonsense of this show. And, like, I think aspects of him just not even aspects. His whole face annoyed me. You know? Then got a smug motherfucker to play this.

61:33KT: But he had an air of wealth. Like, there's something that strikes me about him that felt like he grew up with money. There's something about the underdog and and Toni that makes us root for him because he like you said, he had no other option, but he was also very successful

61:51KT: at what he did.

61:51Oti: Because he felt he was untouchable. He felt he was untouchable because of his family backing in Beirut. Yeah. He felt like even if you kill me, my family will come down like a brick like a wall of bricks Yeah. On you. So it just made me sad. And even when he was being fucking killed, he had no fucking fear, which pissed me off. Yeah. Because he was like, kill me. It's a fucking mistake. My family will come and kill you, so go

62:18Oti: ahead and do whatever. I wanted to see him squirm and squeal like the fucking cockroach he is. But nah. We are not given that satisfaction.

62:27KT: Yeah. Because that's what you want. You want that moment of comeuppance.

62:31Oti: You want that moment of clarity, and you also want that moment of closure for Toni. Yeah. But if someone is prodding you at his at his final final hour Yeah. At his final moment Yeah. Then what satisfaction are you getting from it? I wanted to see him suffer. It was just so annoying. I I feel like it it's understandable because he's big. He's he knows his family is big and Yeah. Runs Yeah. So I

62:59Oti: just I just wanted to see him squeal a bit, man.

62:59KT: Well, maybe the solace is he was putting on a tough face, but he was shitting his pants. But I think that's just the only way we're gonna feel about dissatisfaction him even if he's but is it dissatisfaction seeing him squirm and squeal? But I'm saying you're not gonna get it out of a man like him. Like you said, he felt like he was untouchable. Yeah. Man, that pissed me off. Well, I'll read your fan fiction, Oti,

63:24KT: you're you're up to paying it.

63:24Oti: Yeah. I'll write a book about him squarming.

63:30KT: Tank, friends and lovers. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode this week. We very much appreciated it in all of the languages we speak, but more so the languages we pretend we can speak after reading subtitles. Let's finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

63:30Oti: I'm gonna reference Sopranos.

63:53Oti: Nice. Because throughout watching this, I kept on comparing Toni to Tony.

63:58KT: Toni Tony Oti?

63:58Oti: Yep.

63:58KT: Nice. And I will reference Gomorrah.

64:04Oti: Oh, Gennaro.

64:07KT: Yeah. It's sad to me that we haven't covered it yet, but that is ample, ample heads up friends and lovers, habibis and all to go and check it out.

64:07Oti: Oh, for sure.

64:07KT: If you'd like to check us out on a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we're at @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Apple Podcasts if you like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week.

64:07Oti: See you.

64:07KT: Yalla. Yalla.