Weapons, The Paper, The Long Walk & The Smashing Machine

Full transcript of Weapons, The Paper, The Long Walk & The Smashing Machine.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. And we've got another Ref Max, Oti.

0:05Oti: Mm.

0:06KT: Uh, I guess we'll see the hotty hot films if people are still talking about them. We're catching up to our backlog. Friends and lovers. Yes. That's shade. Yes, that's some shrapnel. Uh, you've got anything before we get into the show, sir?

0:22Oti: No, not really.

0:24KT: What are your averages? My averages are looking very average in this episode,

0:29Oti: Oh. There's some that I enjoyed. for sure.

0:32KT: Okay, well tantalizing notes. Let's get into the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host thirsting for some nourishment in this cinematic, dusty tumbleweeds host KT.

0:57Oti: and Oti.

0:59KT: today we have a collection, a handful across different studios and independent productions, friends and lovers. We will be covering Weapons. The Paper? Yes. Domhnall Gleeson's Paper, The Long Walk and The Smashing Machine.

1:18Oti: oof,

1:19KT: Uh, hot off the press. Just last night we watched One Battle After Another, so we'll add that onto the next Ref Max. Mm-hmm. Um, you don't want to comms it right now.

1:30Oti: nah.

1:31KT: Oh, okay. Well, you, you'll have to tune in Friends and lovers. We also have films from the African Film Festival and I, uh, ventured out for the Korean, uh, film festival as well, which will, uh, put in the, um, schedule as well. Friends and lovers. But who, who, I guess I just wanna take some time to again, lay our love and sloes to all of our friends and lovers, uh, that have been with us since day one, that have recently joined us, maybe because of Demon Slayer. It's a very hot, popular episode at the moment.

2:07Oti: Mm-hmm.

2:08KT: Mm-hmm. Oti. Um, and I don't know how it works for o other podcasts, your other favorite film podcast, friends and Lovers, but people check out our episodes even from years ago. Do you wanna know an episode that's currently popular at the moment? Mm, The Aviator.

2:24Oti: course.

2:24KT: Thanks for the memories. I think it might be because of One Battle After Another. With Leo on the way, but friends and lovers, this is our combined review format. Um, usually it's films that are currently out or recently out, so we try not to spoil anything. So in this case, grab a snack, grab a beverage. Feel free to throw us some nourishment our way. Uh, but we're gonna be starting off with Weapons.

2:56Oti: Mm.

2:56KT: Thanks to Warner Brothers. We went to the media screening. Uh, and again, no spoilers. I guess before we even get started, not into detail, um, I'm not a Cregger's gal. Are you a Cregger's boy?

3:13Oti: boy. Oh really?

3:14KT: All right, well, with that, give us your pull quote for Weapons. My love

3:20Oti: Polished and well-made, Weapons hooks you early with its concept and characters. But too many shifting perspectives dilute the story, leading to a final act that feels disillusioning. Still, expect it to be all the rage.

3:36KT: Oh, and this is where you find out heat seeking weapons.

3:45Oti: What the hell was, You're not tripod

3:53KT: the OTs of no nation.

3:55Oti: da.

3:58KT: Okay, well, let me get into my, uh, pull quote, played too straight to be satire and not succinct enough to be a critique, Cregger relies on his signature aesthetics for Weapons.

4:12Oti: Oh.

4:13KT: If you are reading it, it sounds very innocuous. If you've got my voice and you hear me say it, that's not a compliment.

4:21Oti: compliment. Mm, I hear you. So, going into this movie, I thought I'm going to get, you know, get some horror going, you know, I love horror as a genre watching this movie. I don't know, if I'd classify it as such,

4:41KT: maybe loosely, it was just very, the, the color grading was just very gritty looking.

4:49Oti: But we, we get to play with a lot. We get to play, he gets to play with a lot of different perspectives and characters whilst. It Felt fresh at the start. It felt like Ooh, I'm getting a different perspective from someone else. And seeing how that sort of runs, and hopefully we see how it all connects. Yeah. And it sort of fits into the missing kids and all without any sort of spoilers. I, I was left the thinking, Oh. okay, is this it? Like, I was I don't

5:23KT: why are we the ones that gave a fuck about

5:25Oti: the kids

5:26KT: more than the people in the movie?

5:29Oti: Uh, like the concept. I loved the concept. I loved the Initiat and I loved half through the movie, I was like, oh my God, this is so good.

5:38KT: you thought you loved the concept of Boyhood, but that wasn't enough to carry the film.

5:42Oti: Oof. Don't even remind me. But

5:45KT: concepts to me just sound like gimmicks. If there's no substance there, a wrong, you know, maybe that, uh, maybe that old lady was Hugh Grant's wife in Heretic.

5:57Oti: Oh, Wow.

5:59KT: you go. There's your crossover. We got them. You don't think she had some blueberries in her voodoo bag?

6:06Oti: Probably.

6:08KT: Okay. Well, you touched on, uh, I want to go back. I want to go back to your quote eventually, but what you're saying in regards to the format of this film, again, we're not gonna spoil anything, but it was told through points of view. Mm-hmm. Right. I think a really cool, uh, example of that is Kill Bill. Mm-hmm.

6:28Oti: Mm-hmm.

6:29KT: Maybe even, uh, Pulp Fiction, right. Where it it plays into the playfulness of the story and the format. Yeah. This is obviously, I guess, treated as like a sort of drama. I don't see, I don't even know what this genre is. It's trying and it's trying hard.

6:50Oti: hard drum.

6:52KT: Haram, we're working on our screenplay. Friends and lovers, please go on, go script fund me, um, and throw us some coins. Um, but it got too much. If, if the switching points of view was to play into the playful nature, I don't think it was playful or campy enough to do that. If the switching of the point of views was to put across a point, it made that point. From like the second point of view, we didn't learn anything interesting or illuminating from a story resonance point of view, because again, this is our Rick and Morty rule.

7:35Oti: Not,

7:36KT: Not necessarily Rick, but it's the Morty rule of don't fucking tell us Five years later, five years earlier, fuck off. Right? And that was the pull 'cause, the pull of this was these 17 children going missing. And they're like, fuck all these 17 children throughout the whole movie until it decided it needed to tie up the

7:57Oti: I thought those deeper themes that the movie wanted to talk on, that it, it, it sort of Lightly, caressed, but never really.

8:07KT: No. It, it, it, it, it hesitantly. Groped it.

8:11Oti: I thought Cares is lighter than hesitantly.

8:14KT: no, but Caress is romantic.

8:17Oti: Okay.

8:17KT: There was no devotion in the touch,

8:21Oti: Ah,

8:21KT: like the devotion for his mama and Grandmamma complex. He has, he wants to be the Duchess dog

8:28Oti: Duch reference.

8:31KT: Like grow up. The scariest thing you can think of is Nick or grandma get lost. I'm so sorry. Go away. But if that's the case, make it Arthur terrify. Like, go all the way, stop telling us you've got wet dreams for your maternal figures in your life. It's weird, but it's weird without fruition. Right? But if it goes back to your point, the point of views, I don't know what the point of it was. And I guess you can be like, KT, there's no point to, uh, just enjoy it. Well, I guess we're gonna see that in him when we get to it. But for

9:08Oti: now, oh,

9:10KT: well, you never know. I'm not an aesthetics gal, so when I say aesthetics, it's not a compliment. Um, but in, in regards to Weapons. It felt like it tried to tackle a lot with, with keeping in the non-spoiler sort of territory. I kept writing down potential themes on what it could be. It felt what, whatever it was, it felt very American. Whether it is charter school, home schools, I'm not gonna say any other sort of themes, but, you know, the,

9:43Oti: I

9:43KT: know, it's like, it's like parents, parents trying to have a hold on their children, but not the responsibility of their children and like, passing it to teachers, right. So teachers, churches, wherever. Right. Unfortunately, maybe Joe Rogans and, and other men they shouldn't be listening to on the internet. So there's a lot that this film, like you said, it, it kind of presented, it didn't necessarily. Even, like I said, it, it's, it's not even a critique on what they're showing. It was just showing shit. Shout us to Benedict Wong. Love Benedict Wong.

10:26Oti: Yeah. It, it, it, it had some cool shots. It had.

10:33KT: Even, even the start of your quote,

10:38Oti: you hate it when I do that. Um, not,

10:41KT: not just you, anyone, because un unless it's like a film class, I don't know. It's not necessarily accessible to me.

10:49Oti: The moments in the movie I was like, oh my God, that's beautiful. That's beautifully done. You know, like he could get to appreciate like when he get Benedict Wong running around and you know, the him sort of the thing happening to him, beautiful.

11:04KT: That was beautiful.

11:05Oti: Like you could appreciate

11:07KT: on Titan and Beautiful. You

11:08Oti: appreciate the, the artistry that, you know, went into it and you could feel, oh my God. Yes.

11:14KT: Yeah. Okay.

11:15Oti: So that aspect of the movie I was like, oh my God,

11:17KT: But then look at a painting, bro.

11:19Oti: We're watching a film.

11:22KT: We're watching a film that has a narrative, that has a character arc that builds a world.

11:27Oti: But we can get to appreciate a lot of different things in a film.

11:31KT: Sure.

11:33Oti: But like, this is why, I hate, for

11:36KT: it's not a bad film. It's just frustrating because you've got the mic, you've got the platform, you've got the pen, you've got the lens, and now you're, what do you call it? You're jamming like, like the gun cock jam, is that what it's called?

11:53Oti: Yeah. And, and I think this is the only movie I watched the trailer for in our

12:00KT: Yeah. 'cause we were trying to decide whether we go and watch it.

12:02Oti: Yeah. And, and I feel like that played a part in, informing me what I. was going to, What I was expecting this movie to be. Which I try not to fall into that bucket of going with my preconceived, ideas of what this is based off the trail or whatnot. And then going and feeling as if either I'm let down by something not panning out as the way I thought it would be. Uhhuh or feeling as if, or I got, oversold or I got lied to. You know, like Yeah. the trailer paints a picture of what you think you think this movie would be and I felt like. It wasn't that. No.

12:40KT: but even if you had no expectations, what? What was in the flat pack was missing a few screws.

12:49Oti: But you wouldn't know. You're missing screws though.

12:52KT: You do when it all falls apart. Well I get

12:55Oti: but at that point you've already had a meal on the, table before it all fell.

13:00KT: are we gonna out analogy each other? Is it For Your Analogies?

13:06Oti: Uh, or friends

13:07KT: and lovers subscribe to the Patreon for For Your Parables. I'm sure.

13:11Oti: I'm sure.

13:11KT: sure Oti's got a few in there. Um, I just,

13:17Oti: because

13:18KT: this was the tag where people were saying this is the best film of 2025. And

13:23Oti: can we just like,

13:24KT: like I think people need to calm down. I think people need to calm down, but I would also say I am also someone that's planning to go and see Demon Slayer for the fourth time in 4DX. So I think people should enjoy what they want to enjoy. But I think also sometimes your love isn't your greatest love. Maybe you've had your greatest love. Maybe your greatest love is on the way. It doesn't make this love any less, right? We don't need to fall into hyperbole of this is the worst film, this is the best film. Sometimes it's serviceable.

13:56Oti: and sometimes you can plainly say, this is the worst film.

14:01KT: But would you say that for this,

14:03Oti: no. it's not. No. I had, I had, I had a decent time at the cinema. Yeah. Um, popcorn cones were popping.

14:12KT: sure

14:13Oti: Um, and we get to see some really cool shots, some great, some, some good Storytelling without it, going. To the level of what I expected the movie to be. And to be honest, I think if you want to try and touch into messaging, just go for it. Because this. And we see that a lot in movies Where they feel like they wanna say something and, then they have pocket.

14:36KT: to try and tackle it.

14:38Oti: Just don just stay clear Because if you're not gonna do it, just you are wasting time.

14:43KT: if you're gonna get in the ring, get in the ring. We love you being RAs, but not that movie. I even forgot what that movie was called. Check Out. Check out Ref Max. Friends and Lovers. Uh, no, but if you're gonna get in the ring, get in the ring. Uh, of, of commentary or grappling with really hard shit that's hard to grapple with, right? Because even if you're trying, you're trying. But if you are not, like, again, just make it out to terrify. I don't like, even though I enjoy commentary and I will always try and look for commentary in horror films, this is me saying it. Let's just have fun with it. Let's get sexy with it. Maybe you wanna get sexy with your grandma. Maybe that's just not my thing, but let's just have fun and get sexy with horror. Is that okay?

15:36Oti: Mm-hmm. Yeah,

15:38KT: I think that's okay. Um, speaking of getting fun and sexy with it, Domhnall Gleeson,

15:45Oti: Ooh.

15:45KT: end of episode. Like, that's it. That's really all I have to say. Um, love to All the Gleesons. There's a really fun show with Brendan Gleeson, Domhnall Gleeson and other Gleeson. Uh, and it's a comedy series and that's very fun because I think for a lot of these actors in particular, they're very serious. They bring great performance and gravitas. But that was a fun show, The Patient's very good. Um, my favorite episode of Black Mirror's Be Right Back with Domhnall Gleeson. Mm. So that's just my, my, my Shrine, my poor Bitney alter friends and lovers. There is a, there's a new uh, Da Vinci Code, isn't there?

16:30Oti: Yeah. There's a book coming out.

16:34KT: Well, you get your cipher and I'll compare mine. Alright. Thank you to the team at Binge. Again, non-spoiler. These are our first impressions for The Paper

16:48Oti: Punching above its weight, The Paper delivers characters that are both funny and lovable. A light, bingeable mockumentary full of chuckles, charm and newsroom hijinks.

17:00KT: Nice.

17:01Oti: Mm.

17:02KT: When you said chuckles, it remind me of the Chuckle Hut, which is a 30 Rock reference where they had the ventriloquist dummy and everyone was dressed as Kenneth. Um, anyway, The Paper is aware and plays well in the climate for comedy in the 2020s that's rooted in acknowledging conflicting realities, pairing well with its journalistic setting.

17:27Oti: oh, look at you. I

17:30KT: think you watched the cousin Mo's version. I just think it did. What many rebooted remakes struggled to do TV and film. You know, we recently reviewed King of the Hill, which I think did it very well. Um, but there are so many countless examples of usually middle, middle-aged white men that are so resistant to the idea of world, like new worlds, new experiences, new voices, new pronouns, et cetera. And I think, um, sure does a very good job in, you know, just, just existing now because The Office, as much as you can re-watch The Office, it kind of ignores the now because it wasn't made for now. Mm.

18:26Oti: Yeah. I feel that. Um, Rainn Wilson the other week, quite recently.

18:32KT: he hit you up?

18:32Oti: up? He, did hit me up. Um, he did say that Peacock or NBC left a lot of money on the table, for not picking up The Farm or whatever his spin-off show was supposed to be, yeah. And I was sitting there thinking, did we try it? We, we wa Yeah. It was like the last episode of whatever season it was, and I was like, oh my God, I don't think I'm ready for this. Like, in as much as I loved Dwight, that just felt so, I don't know, having a show around Dwight and divorced from The Office and all the characters and all that, I don't even think Angela was gonna be in there. It just felt weird. I didn't, I

19:10KT: it wasn't enough to go

19:11Oti: Yeah. I was Like

19:12KT: it was too weird. But then too corporate weird. Like it wasn't weird. Weird.

19:17Oti: Yeah. I don't think I was ready for

19:19KT: would've been the better spinoff. Like if you're gone and go

19:23Oti: if you're gonna go, yeah. Mm, I see, I can see that

19:27KT: with his mungbeans as his creed blogs, you know what I mean? That becomes a completely different show. Uh, I think a lot of who Dwight was is everything that Michael Scott wasn't. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of like he existed in, in opposition to Jim Halpert. Mm-hmm.

19:47Oti: Mm.

19:47KT: You know what I mean? So I don't know if we really knew who he was and we never really got depth. And then he had a little love affair with Beth Grant. That's another grandma loving going on over there too. But

19:58Oti: I see why you said you wanted to do this in order. You're going Grandma Loving.

20:02KT: Yeah. Yes. All the way to Barbarian. Um, no, I even back then, I don't think. It could have been done. Yeah. Um, and yeah, like now we're in a different climate. Um, you know, it, we are seeing the death of journalism, the devolving of information and, you know, there's a conversation about whether people are consuming the news, but that's not the conversation. The conversation is about accessibility or

20:36Oti: Random fucking people on YouTube thinking they're journalists because they do a two hour fucking essay. Like,

20:44KT: Yeah, there's, but they're not bound to anything. They're

20:47Oti: not bound to anything. So when shit hits the fan, you're like, oh, I'm just a guy on the internet, No fa

20:54KT: No, there's, there's a responsibility, whether it's through industry or otherwise, or even just like as a fucking human man fact check shit

21:04Oti: Yeah. Uh, we watched A-B-B-C-I documentary called, Death in Dubai. And.

21:09KT: and

21:12Oti: it was focusing on, uh, particular deaths of, uh, women in Dubai and just the sort of the nature of the internet. of, Oh, it's because of this and laughing and running with it and creating these narratives and stories and really drinking out. It's all about just interactions and clicks. And Then when. you are, you are, Presented with actual facts and what's going on, the insidious nature behind with Trump, It's like, oh shit, I didn't know. I was just doing X, Y, and Z. You know? like, And this is where, when people like Keke Palmer says, or as a journalist, I'm like, what do you fucking mean as a journalist? yeah. Get that outta your mouth. fa Yeah.

22:01KT: cause there's, there's integrity to information. Um, and they, they interviewed and I don't even care. I'm sure some people would be like, oh, that was like, you know, a big moment for him to come forward as an interview. You know, fuck this guy. I actually didn't even bother to write his name, but he's a TikTok uh, influencer and he didn't seem to have any remorse. So even if he didn't know whether it was correct, even if he didn't have two brain cells, and I'm talking about everyone, but this guy in particular, you could have Googled it and even what he said was there weren't any verified sources as, as if to absolve himself of it, feeding into the salacious of particular sort of kinks or sex acts, knowing that is going to get traction, feeling no remorse for it.

22:51Oti: it,

22:52KT: Being like, it's not my job to fact check. Well, it's like, fuck you my guy, and fuck anyone else that wants to abandon humanity just for their little sort of reprieve and escape because the world is fucking here and we need to address this shit. And if we are noticing friends and lovers since we're talking about journalism, John Oliver's most recent episode before he made his way to the h John Benjamin void of it all. Uh, there were, there, there were excerpts from Russian journalists and they were talking about where they felt like they were starting to see the, the tightening of the news. And they mentioned it was when independent broadcasters were starting to get strong armed by the government

23:35Oti: I thought, oh, let's just leave it. It's

23:38KT: or like, let's protest a beer. But there's other places we can go to and you know, and this is what Weapons should have done, by the way, friends and lovers. Um. But it really is that because in every instance of every Revolution, friends and Lovers is a part of the African Film Festival. I went to go and watch a, uh, Sudanese documentary. Even Farming the Revolution, which we covered in the Sydney Film Festival. At the heart of every freedom, fighting is a raising of consciousness. It's not just the government is bad, it's not just press should be available. It's the strong arming and the use and abuse of power and control and Western puppets at the end of the day. And people need to tap into that shit. I, I think we're putting too much on The Paper 'cause it wasn't necessarily, but even the fact that The Paper felt like it was grounded with both feet on the ground compared to Weapons that kept throwing shit out there that never really landed in any meaningful way. There's a lot of praise I believe that should be given and should be extended even to entertainment

24:59Oti: Yeah.

25:00KT: because there's this insidious nature where everyone's just looking for content and they're not necessarily engaging, I guess, before you even, like, before you even reach out to like ChatGPT before you even reach out to find a TikTok or to tell you something that you can formulate yourself. Right? Let, like just let yourself live and breathe through this fucking life like a fucking human. Fuck. Yeah.

25:27Oti: Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah.

25:29KT: Is there anything specifically about The Paper?

25:31Oti: Uh, Domhnall.

25:33KT: we we're for your journalism, it was a German journalism, uh, segment

25:37Oti: didn't know what to expect from Domhnall, Domhnall Gleeson, Domhnall.

25:41KT: Domhnall, the king of the Dumb Hall,

25:45Oti: It's a dumb hole.

25:46KT: I guess, what is it? How do you make everyone sound black? How you would never find loop. wouldn't even matter. Ifs was in the Netherlands. It

26:07Oti: was really, really good.

26:10KT: He was

26:11Oti: um, uh, did you, did you, like the the love interest, the oh, will they, wouldn't they How quickly they died

26:21KT: aid

26:22Oti: or they didn't? 'cause I'm not spoiling anything.

26:25KT: Okay.

26:27Oti: that was very sort of,

26:30KT: That was very Pierce, Community, of you

26:36Oti: Oh, lemme get my ear. Oculus. What is happening to this episode? What

26:45KT: It's exactly where it needs to be. Uhhuh. It's exactly where it needs to be. Um, I think it was, okay, take it or leave it. Like they weren't the most toxic romantic relationship. I love Esmeralda

26:57Oti: Esmeralda is everything. and everything is Alda. Alda.

27:01KT: we need Jennifer Coolidge.

27:03Oti: How, won't be able to handle,

27:06KT: yeah.

27:08Oti: Oh,

27:10KT: Oh. Oh. I don't wanna spoil it, but she has a romantic

27:15Oti: interest.

27:15KT: I don't wanna spoil it. I don't wanna spoil it, but, oh, you know what? It's not easy. Like comedy is not easy. But also doing a comedy that again, is reflective of conflicting realities in the world in which we live right now. And also to talk about, because they, they don't shy away from journalism, you know, even Esmeralda, she's kind of like. Poppy pop sort of like articles or you know, like the hottest, the hottest star now has a dad bod. Like those sorts of like clickbaity, well they're not really clickbait 'cause actually people are clicking on it. But you know, there, there's that sort of pop click section and then you have like the proper, proper spotlight type of journalism, um, that's trying to go on. And I guess understanding that both whether they should, whether they can, whether they will withstand, um, will exist.

28:19Oti: Yeah.

28:20KT: And it, it's finding a way to navigate through that. How do stories get told? How, how do you navigate stories that need to be told, but funding getting pulled Right. or particular interests.

28:34Oti: particular European

28:36KT: powers trying to squash out voices. Wow. They really rally for Jimmy Kimmel, man.

28:42Oti: They did. Um, but I think what The Paper, does well, we also get to sort of see, I think the best thing about bringing Oscar back is He's the only one that could have come back. Without it feeling too. ridiculous or too, too unbelievable. If,

29:01KT: Or like, just too, um, smirky to the original. Yeah.

29:07Oti: Like we're bring just because Yeah. Yeah.

29:11KT: All right. Um, are you ready to tussle?

29:15Oti: Oh,

29:16KT: you ready to tussle with our peers?

29:18Oti: Yeah. I, I think

29:20KT: I I Age. I meant age wise.

29:22Oti: Yeah, I Know me. teenage legs?

29:27KT: Uh, thank you to hers and the team at StudioCanal. This is The Long Walk.

29:34Oti: While it drags in places, The Long Walk is hard to shake as it lingers after the credits roll. David Jonsson is endearing, yet without more on why the Walk exists, or why it's so readily accepted,

29:50KT: the weight

29:50Oti: doesn't fully land.

29:54KT: Ooh, land your weight on me.

29:57Oti: Wow.

29:58KT: The Long Walk is hearty and audiences will be able to emotionally resonate.

30:09Oti: It's a movie, so it is.

30:10KT: if we, yeah, I, I think that just reads. Like nothing. But if you know me, that's my way of like through gritted teeth being forced to say something that isn't fully critiqued. Anyway, let me, you can keep this in, but let me do it for the flow of the, uh, soundbite. The Long Walk is hearty and audiences will be able to emotionally resonate. However, whether through age of cast compared to the age intended for the characters or fiction that leaned more towards real life, the overall messaging and tone felt uneven at times.

30:54Oti: Mm.

30:55KT: It stayed on the, it stayed on the desk too long,

30:59Oti: maybe so, but one thing about this movie, is I found myself going back, subconsciously, going back Thinking about the characters, thinking about the movie itself, thinking about the ending, trying to understand the reasons behind it. And it's been a while since I walked out a movie and I felt, without me trying to think about a movie, like it just came back and flashes thinking, oh shit. And with that, I think right now where I'm at with this movie, I sort of enjoy it more than I did, when I came out of the cinema, just because I've had a bit more time to marinate and, and sort of think about. 'cause we get David Jonsson, like I, I, I, I love him. I know there's a mixed woo woo with you.

31:52KT: Neither of us are

31:53Oti: made it.

31:54KT: sir.

31:55Oti: It, It, Just he was, to me, he should have been the focus and we should have gotten to know not really even the focus. We should have gotten to know more about him as a person.

32:09KT: It felt like co-leads to me, co

32:12Oti: Mm.

32:13KT: like I, I, I would say that he is, he had as much screen time or presence

32:18Oti: Then it was, It was wasted because I didn't get to know, more. I understood where I understood that he'd been through some shit.

32:27KT: Maybe this is reflective of the male loneliness epidemic. And even though men's can walk for days and days, for hours, for hours, they still won't fucking talk about their real life,

32:38Oti: because you

32:38KT: shallow talking conversation.

32:41Oti: You Know what it felt like. It felt like, Ooh, and we're gonna discuss it in, in Smashing Machine. It felt like how at the end you're like, oh, why wasn't the focus the other guy when he was supposed to? be, you know? it felt to me like that because I felt there was so much more on the table.

32:58KT: yeah.

32:59Oti: Regardless of whether they were colleagues or not there, there's still something, if there are certain people that are gonna make it till the end, then we need to have some more, emotional weight. yeah. Some more caring as to, oh yes, let's root let's anything that elicits any emotion, be it anger, joy, or whatever. I needed more. of that. Some, I needed more of that.

33:23KT: Yeah, yeah, No, no, no. I get that.

33:25Oti: Because there was some, I was like, okay, I can understand some motivation. I can understand some of the motivation. But I can't fully buy into the reasoning as to why that, and that's why I guess the ending disturbed me a bit because that's why I was kept on I kept on thinking about it too much. I Kept on coming back to the movie. Like I'd be at work doing some random Excel sheet and I'd be like, oh, shit. I, I, maybe it's because of X, Y, and Z. And Maybe that's the intention. I doubt it, but maybe that's what it is.

33:55KT: So let's, let's take a step back for a second. This is based off a Stephen King book. Um, and try to do research. Tried to stay, you know, present. Um, I am very like full foreshadow, some montero as well as zoomie. It was nice to, um, bump into them and have, I think it was one of the more robust chats we've had, uh, together. And it was about The Long Walk. Um, I am my most potent coming out of a screening. I think I usually. Will always feel the way I feel, but I might maybe appreciate more things, but I still feel the same way. Right. Um, because I do a lot of, it's very distracting, but I do a lot of thinking while I'm watching the film. That's why I need to do my little scribble notes so at least I can focus once I've written down my little note that I can never read again. But I think the core sort of qualm, quarrel, quandary I had with this film is, this is fiction, right? As far as I know, and I'm sure we can do some more research, but as far as I know this isn't real. A lottery into a mandatory long ass walk isn't a real thing. Right?

35:17Oti: Yeah.

35:18KT: But it's still a fiction. Hunger Games, Maze Runner. Even Divergent to a particular extent. They're all young adult, which that's not even a knock, but it's a way to explore commentary, the necessity or the harm of war through a dystopian, fictional sort of world, right? And it's even accessible for young audiences to be able to understand that The Long Walk is literally just a long walk. So what was, what was the elasticity that was afforded in fiction that you chose not to have? 'cause it's literally real life, but you soften the blow because it's not war, it's a long walk. Do you understand what I'm saying? You soften the blow of war to do a Hunger Games, but that becomes very effective in what they're able to explore,

36:18Oti: Mm-hmm. Except

36:19KT: for your little plank boy, the Hunger Games, Peeta.

36:23Oti: Mm.

36:23KT: And if we're gonna be consistent, uh, you know, from Weapons to here again, another example of middle-aged white men wanting to dabble, whether it's Stephen King or the director, uh, of The Long Walk wanting to dabble in a world without ever really committing to saying anything. And also, it didn't even feel like race was a part of the identity of the characters at all. At all, at all, at all. And race wasn't even noted to until we had our, like the young native boy.

37:01Oti: Mm.

37:01KT: I don't wanna, I don't want to talk about his arc specifically 'cause I don't wanna spoil it, but there is an indication of him being native and what he holds sacred.

37:11Oti: being Yeah,

37:11KT: Right. Everything else. And I don't even know what the point of that is, right? Or is it just for us to visually, but it's not just visual, it's, there's a lot that would inform who he is as a character. Also shout out to Ben Wang. It was nice to see him too. Um, I don't, I don't like the way your man's David Jonsson was coming for my guy. But anyway, I guess the elders always liked to bully the children, but I just, it didn't feel compelling enough. It could have, like, obviously no one wants to see another war movie, but I don't understand if you have the world of fiction. Why did you just choose to have them walking for a long, long time? And I guess what I would also say for this is 'cause they talked about one of the kids lying to try and like, I think the threshold might have been 16. So from what I was gauging, Hoffman and Jonsson were like 17, 18, right? Mm. And I said to you, I don't wanna be rude, but David Jonsson looks my age. And then we got out of the screening man's is my age, and that dilutes the sharpness because they're trying, like the film is trying to say, these young men barely out of their teens are going through shit. They should never have to even understand the implications of let alone participate in, right? Mm-hmm. And when he looks 30 in the face, he looks like he's able to handle that.

38:50Oti: that.

38:51KT: No, I'm not.

38:52Oti: Stop it.

38:53KT: I'm not being funny.

38:54Oti: know. I hear it. I hear it.

38:57KT: I'm not trying. I hear you. I promise you. I'm not

38:59Oti: know, I know. I know. I'm just,

39:03KT: because there were lots of, and also I'm not like, I'm not a prude in any sense, but when it comes to shit and scat play, 'cause that's what I'm gonna call it. It was so indulgent at some point. I am not like, it's too much. Because what was the point of that?

39:22Oti: Because they had to show us how, how fast it is. No, they have to go. How does it happen? They answered the most innocuous questions. I would've been fine without knowing the answers to no. But it was outside of the actual passionate question of the why,

39:39KT: but they acted so juvenile. David Jonsson was starting to look like Tracy Jordan's kid. That's another 30 Rock. I guess it's a 30 Rock episode. Friends and lovers. No, but David Jonsson, he was too old to be a 17, 18, 19-year-old conflicted boy that was trying to figure out the world. And you know what? They gave him the biggest struggle. They gave him a struggle that he couldn't handle. Right. He literally got to a point where he said, all's my life, I has to fight. I've been walking all my life. I've been walking step by step, brick by brick walk, motherfucker. Come on, man. Enough.

40:20Oti: Enough. I don't know I

40:23KT: way to get there. Fine. Like I said, with Weapons, it's not terrible. It's not bad. We can be balanced. We don't need to be hyperbolic, but I am just not a fan of the sharpest way in a narrative to get you to feel something.

40:42Oti: No, I hear you. I hear you. Uh, because I'm

40:47KT: not even talking about performances. We can talk about performances the same way we like to talk about the way something was shot nicely.

40:53Oti: No, 'cause at this, at this level, you know, you'll get good performances and people act their asses off, That's

41:00KT: they're 30-year-old asses off.

41:01Oti: off. That can pretty much go. unaid. It's more looking back at the movie and aspects of the movie that I did enjoy or felt as if, I needed to know more on. And, And, maybe that's why, like I'm, I'm battling with myself. as to what the intention was Is it for me as the viewer to come out with all these different questions. To question my mindset on the state as of, of, of, of the why rather than it being. Oh, the movie will do X, Y, and z For us, it's, I had my frustrations coming out of that movie, and I didn't feel as if the foundation was strong enough for it to, for it to to stride for it to run. You know, It was just this brisk walk throughout. I needed it to fly in the movie and we just didn't take off. It's weird That, and people who read the book will be like, whoa. whoa. And that's the thing, I, I'm here to watch the movie and, and I'm just presented by what I watch. Yeah, And that's what I'm gonna judge. it by. So it did feel short. I still, I'm battling with the aspects of the movie that, I, the performance is like, you know, like you said. it's good, whatever. Ah, I just needed, more. I needed, I needed the world. Because A lot of the things that we watch when you're talking about world building, that's where I felt this was so short of the world building,

42:44KT: what are the implications?

42:47Oti: Mm.

42:47KT: And it felt like there were reveals in the film that felt like they were there for narrative flair because if they lived in the world that they lived in and there was no way they would've been conscripted slash um, drawn from the lottery without them having basic knowledge of the way that it works. But it became a surprise, which again, I feel like was more a concession to narrative flair.

43:13Oti: Yeah. Yeah. And again,

43:16KT: But it wasn't bad.

43:17Oti: Again, if these were kids and you are experiencing it, it's one thing knowing, but. experiencing it is different. So maybe it's narrative flair, but to me it was ah. You know it's gonna happen. But the fact that you are actually, experiencing it sort of throws everything out the window.

43:39KT: but I, I, I do feel like the film didn't do enough. Like it had prominence of non-white characters, right? It had prominence of young black men in this film. And to have a critique on conscription, you know, I'll always quote, uh, Furious from Boyz n the Hood of, of, you know, serving, uh, a white man's war that, you know, young black men have no business in being. But even in the climate of America, and, you know. Young black men dying or going missing, and that not necessarily being addressed, or you would have families having family activities around these sorts of events, which I'm not going to get into graphic detail on, but something that is treated as a Sunday afternoon picnic. It can't even handle the complexity and the different layers of racial experience in America. Right? So I didn't even know what the point was. I'm not saying all of the young boys should have been white, but it didn't even, again, it wasn't until the young Native boy had a particular scene that they actually noted to race, really? In this film.

45:05Oti: Maybe they just don't see color.

45:07KT: Well then there's your Barbie, there's your double pairing. You know what I mean? Because apparently there's no hierarchy at all. And again, no one's asking you to dabble. We've got Pet Sematary, let's go have fun in Pet Sematary. Let's go have fun and, you know, twerk down the drain pipe with Pennywise. You know what I mean?

45:28Oti: Baby Gage J

45:30KT: Baby Gage.

45:33Oti: all

45:34KT: Baby Gage might have been 30 years old as well. I

45:39Oti: I

45:40KT: waiting for the day. I know there's gonna be a day that I absolutely fall in love with David Jonsson. I'm waiting for it.

45:47Oti: Mm-hmm.

45:48KT: Thank you for, for pulling me up. But neither of us are mixed, Oti, so, so less, less of that slander. Alright, speaking of mixed, friends and lovers, um, thank you to VVS films and the team at nco. Uh, this film of the collection, uh, that we're reviewing today isn't actually out yet, but there is no embargo. But also we won't be spoiling The Smashing Machine. I'm actually very excited to talk about this with you, Oti. We missed Anora. I don't know if this is gonna get Anora level, but it's definitely gonna get a lot of attention. So let's get our jabs in while we can.

46:33Oti: An emotional, Oscar-bound journey with incredible turns from Johnson and Blunt, yet by softening the rage behind Kerr, it risks feeling too polished, raising questions about how much truth we are really shown.

46:47KT: Woo, babe, you are onto it. Truth.

46:53Oti: saying my truth.

46:55KT: You are that again. You are that heat seeking missile from Young Rock? I'm going there. From Young Rock and now The Smashing Machine, Johnson's desire to dig deep is met with a reluctance to be vulnerable.

47:16Oti: Oh,

47:17KT: Somebody gotta say it.

47:19Oti: trying to give a man an ayahuasca.

47:24KT: Well, you want the ginseng? Here's the ginger root. Those are three different Kendrick lyrics by the way.

47:30Oti: Kendrick head

47:30KT: with signature head-inducing Safdie storytelling, we never quite feel like we are being told the whole story, just the glory.

47:42Oti: Mm. And not the club's kinda glory,

47:46KT: not the plebs glory and no spoiler, not even the glory.

47:53Oti: Oh.

47:53KT: you all have plot holes. Well, let's get into it. Um,

48:00Oti: we're

48:01KT: gonna get into detail, but I would just very gently, uh, put a trigger warning in regards to domestic abuse, physical abuse. Um, but again, we're not, we're not gonna get into a lot of detail about that, but we are going to talk about the absence of which we might reference, um, you know, a, a couple of instance or two. But that was my biggest qualm. Unless you had a bigger crime that you want to tackle first.

48:30Oti: Um, not Really it was, that because it all, it all boils down on the painting of Kerr as a man, as a person. Yeah. And

48:40KT: as a man.

48:41Oti: And the goal of what? The movie was because I felt there was supposed to be a fork in the road. And

48:51KT: And

48:52Oti: put a spoon right in the middle.

48:55KT: Well, it's the utility cutlery of Dwayne the Rock Johnson, I suppose. Um, I will reference the Kurt Angle documentary. Mm-hmm. Friends and Lovers go and check out a Ref Max. We did, uh, cover the Kurt Angle documentary when it came out

49:13Oti: because

49:13KT: you had to remind me that even Kurt Angle's documentary didn't go all the way there, but compared to this film. Kurt Angle was honest about the level of drug use and he was conscious. He didn't like to revisit it, but he was aware of the damage that his substance abuse took.

49:35Oti: he was aware of the damage, but, and, this is, this is the, this is the key. point, right? There's A lot of his life that he laid bare. and a lot of the things, that, a lot of, because I didn't even know about the people or people were saying outside where it's like, oh, actually, you know, you've been married ex-wife. There's stuff that's not there that people actually know of. Others, you know, like a lot of things that were not, said

50:11KT: but it was still more than The Smashing Machine.

50:14Oti: machine. With The Smashing Machine. I felt the goal. was Not more from a biographical sort of angle where it's, you are laying yourself bare. It was more, oh, here, here here's, who, here are two people who were pioneers of UFC. And this is, you know, UFC is so big right now, but this guy's got peanuts, and look what they're getting right now. Like that was the goal of this movie. So anything contradicting that goal Yeah. Was never gonna see the light of day. And that's why the lens, or how it's being pointed felt weird because you can't point it that way in terms of Kerr's life, focus on Kerr that much, and then get to us, get to a point where it feels like, oh, you want the audience to still feel a way at the end. And that way is, oh my God, these guys are so good. They were killing it. They still were killing it, but there's still people and they flawed. They showed some of it, but they, they hinted They heat, They hinted at some of it, and it still felt

51:29KT: manipulative,

51:30Oti: We need to get the audience to this level. And we'll get

51:34KT: house of mirrors. Like they were distorting every

51:37Oti: Yeah, because because there's some tough shit in that movie.

51:40KT: And also like the screening. Everyone ate it up. Everyone enjoyed this distortion of funhouse of mirrors and, you know, friends and lovers. I, I still didn't do any research in regards to Mark Kerr. um, but statistically,

52:01Oti: men,

52:02KT: athletes, anyone that juices aggression, severe aggression is a common side effect of that. So I would be dubious. To the portrayal of Mark's character by Dwayne the Rock Johnson in how Light touch, sorry if you'll pardon the pun, but how lightly they kind of maybe hinted they're like, yeah, like maybe it's there, but don't think too much about it because we're going onto glory now. Don't look at where we don't need you to look exactly like you were saying. Like this is very, and it is very, the Rock produced, and I'm so sorry to say like the Young Rock, we out of support, we're both halves of the Rock really, if you think about it, Oti.

52:58Oti: Ooh.

52:58KT: Ooh. So Rocky Johnson, Oti Johnson. Um, so, you know, we, we try to support that and I was actually really excited or albeit like, you know, like a Peacock show, not like Showtime or HBO. AMC or FX. Um, but I was ex Yeah, right.

53:18Oti: Yeah.

53:19KT: Um, but I was excited to get to know more about our brother. Right? But we still got the glitzy persona of the Rock. As a kid, as a young man, shout us to Fel and as an adult, right? Not even Randall Park could save that show, because it wa it didn't want to be vulnerable. And again, no one's asking you to be vulnerable, but why are we watching something that is semi biographical for the Young Rock, or even for The Smashing Machine, when you're never really going to go there. And if we go back to, you know, abuse, domestic abuse of partners as a side, as, as a, as a side effect of juicing, I said it to you. I don't think in a, in a production that the Rock is involved in. I don't think we're ever gonna see him physically, visually do anything in regards to Emily Blunt's character. And that just didn't make any sense. I don't think that honored the story at all. Shout outs to Lee, um, for popcorn podcasts. It was nice to see her at the screening. She talked about doing research leading up to the film, and I don't remember if she said it before. I think she said it after when we were having a little powwow after, but she said that, you know, the team did try to reach out to the wife and she didn't want any part of it. And I'm like, well, of course

54:50Oti: it's, and this is why, like, it felt, it felt weird watching the movie because when we are watching the movie in our home, you know, you don't get to have people's reaction in different places Where you think, oh, am I missing something? oh, why is that funny? Or none of it we think, okay. And then it, it plays into the mindset of what the movie, wanted to achieve,

55:20KT: like

55:20Oti: and then like, they were

55:20KT: like they were being manipulated and they liked it.

55:23Oti: Mm. And then you, you get to a point, you're like, oh, now we feeling sorry for Kerr, feeling sorry for the Rock's character. But now we are also turning in We were sort of

55:37KT: at Emily

55:37Oti: Emily Blunt's character, sort of Like, uh, and I'm like, okay, what the fuck is this? Yeah. And then

55:44KT: like, he was a gentle giant and she was this, this banshee succubus that was the reason why he became addicted, which makes no sense at all. Like she was his reason for, for demise, essentially. Yeah.

56:00Oti: She was, she was Pretty much, just a bitch. and that's how it sort of portrayed.

56:06KT: Maybe that's how men talk to each other, like maybe, maybe it's like, come on, bro. You know, you'd be cheating on her. And he is like, well, she's a bitch anyway. You know what I mean? Like there's no sense of accountability. There's no sense of inquiring, perhaps a different perspective. It's just being told all of this machismo.

56:27Oti: And that's weird because the movie wants you to believe that it's getting emotional, that It's getting deep,

56:33KT: it's not there.

56:34Oti: It's not there. It's like it's smoke and mirrors. It's fucking smoke and mirrors. It's like, oh, I am emotional. I am vulnerable. Look at me. I'm baring myself. I'm but you are not.

56:47KT: yeah, yeah, yeah. Gross.

56:49Oti: Then you're sitting there thinking, what? What is this? And then you get to the end of the movie and you're like, okay, it fucking makes sense why they're doing this.

56:57KT: didn't even see him go to rehab.

57:00Oti: because It doesn't play into the, the man that he is. It doesn't play to the underdog

57:05KT: all the vulnerability to

57:06Oti: the founding father of fucking UFC to the unappreciated man and the, the sweat and the grit. He had to travel the world. He had to do all these things unappreciated.

57:20KT: Ugh.

57:21Oti: The movie lays a lot, sets a lot, pretends to be a lot. But when you look past all that, they don't really do anything. They don't really show you any, they don't, They don't open you up to who Kerr is. It doesn't, as a person, doesn't you

57:40KT: of you to reflect.

57:41Oti: It doesn't. And outside of it feeling as if you're fucking being manipulated into buying into this sort of perspective, which feels very one way as well. Yeah. It feels like oh Definitely you didn't get any other side of any other person riding this with you. And that's why I'm like, maybe this movie would've been better if Kerr was not involved. Maybe they tell it independent. I don't fucking know.

58:14KT: I think, and again, we said it, I said it about Weapons, I said it about The Long Walk and I'll say it about The Smashing Machine. I don't necessarily think this is a bad movie.

58:25Oti: It's not. I it's not.

58:27KT: But I would also say that it did manipulate, it did take the sharpest way possible, um, you know, to, to get us where we needed to be. And it didn't, you know what it is? It's Drake's The Heart Part 6. Huh,

58:48Oti: Huh,

58:49KT: I'm serious. No, No, no, But it's like you don't get a Heart Part 6. You don't get a Mr. Morale unless you've actually looked at yourself in the fucking mirror and realized that it's you, yourself.

59:04Oti: And you know what? These it's two movies we've covered this time, that I was like a Weapons. It'll be fucking popular because you know, it, it will play to certain things. that the audience will love. And Then there's this movie where, you know, that it will get Oscar noms up the wazoo because it's playing to a certain thing. Yeah. It

59:28KT: Yeah,

59:29Oti: it's giving you a side of Dwayne the Rock that you've not seen. before. Yeah. It's giving you. All this, it's it's playing for that.

59:40KT: But let's be honest, no one really wants to truly engage with what it means to be a man and what masculinity is and the, the damage that masculinity does,

59:50Oti: it, no one does.

59:52KT: So that, so in that case, The Smashing Machine is actually enough that, like, that is satisfactory to get your shit off because no one actually wants to see it. I would hope that, unfortunately for this machismo sort of storytelling that people care about women that this doesn't fly. I would hope,

60:13Oti: Yeah. but you know, it's not, it'll fucking fly. It will win. its fucking Oscar, or whatever. It'll get its nods just because of how they've been It's been laid up and you know, the industry will industry and it'll work just the way we know it'll work. But that's the sad thing because,

60:33KT: you know how effective this manipulation was. I'm not spoiling too much, but it's leading up to him, I guess, like falling off the wagon.

60:43Oti: Mm-hmm.

60:45KT: And there's a very innocuous comment about him partying, knowing he's about to have a fight. And I'm just like, bruv, you wanna be the best of the best and you are like already throwing your life away, or you are already not putting in the work that you need to put in to be the greatest athlete at this time. So it's like, why the fuck are we even supposed to be rooting for you? But it even like, it even turned the audience to feel sympathetic towards him. Like maybe it can be informed that his, uh, addiction is, you know, as a result of trauma in his childhood. But we don't know that it's just enough because Rock's sad. And I feel like, again, it's not a bad movie, but I feel like. This was a very ineffective for me personally, uh, teaming up with Safdie and Johnson because those are two entities. Never the vulnerability shall meet.

61:50Oti: Mm.

61:51KT: And I was saying to you when we got out of the screening, it's like Lester Freamon, Cool Lester Smooth, from The Wire when he was talking to McNulty. You know all that shit while you are waiting for everything else, that's fucking life. And that's where the vulnerability is. You don't wanna show us your rehab. That's where you do the sounding out bi. That's where you do the work now. That's where you come out the other side as a better man. And I mean man in every sense of the word, not in a toxic, masculinity way.

62:21Oti: Yeah. Um, interesting, interesting perspective, this movie. because there's two, There's these two founding people that are calling founding fathers of UFC, but we only get to see one. The other one who's actual you know, uh, maybe I'm spoiling, I'm not gonna spoil him. I'm not gonna spoil but him. Maybe get to know him then. 'cause he seemed to have his shit down.

62:53KT: Yeah.

62:54Oti: Seemed open enough. Yeah.

62:57KT: But then again, maybe it was like a, a rose tinted, you know, like, oh, he was a good family man.

63:05Oti: probably. Anyway, this just you wanna go to to the depths of us feeling and try understand and going beyond any sort of motivations you want for the movie, because the end result of what you want in this movie to be is what really directed the story. Then we don't really get the vulnerability, the emotions and everything in between, and then it sort of feels one sided. It feels very Ugh. Wo me when it's not.

63:39KT: Yeah.

63:41Oti: Anyway, it'll Get its awards.

63:45KT: well, I, I wanna get

63:46Oti: we'll tag on,

63:47KT: I wanna get my free movie tickets. So we need to ev vote all of it. Smashing Machine for the Oscars ballot.

63:55Oti: Yeah.

63:56KT: Hoo. That was a junky boy right there.

64:01Oti: It was

64:01KT: Saw a cat rider.

64:02Oti: Mm-hmm.

64:05KT: In a world of gross, uh, retired fighters. Be Stone Cold Steve Austin. With these kitty cats. Mm-hmm.

64:16Oti: Uh,

64:17KT: I like our, um, ongoing tradition. Um, before we finish up, do you have a recommendation of what our friends and lovers could be watching instead?

64:26Oti: Uh, if you've not watched Demon Slayer, I guess Woo,

64:30KT: Woo,

64:30Oti: go watch it. Um, cannot wait, what is it, next year or two years? after?

64:37KT: Two years.

64:39Oti: Damn.

64:44KT: I will reference the BBCI, uh, documentary.

64:51Oti: They're doing some good shit. man.

64:53KT: Yeah.

64:54Oti: Good. Heavy shit. Good. heavy shit.

64:56KT: But again, in a world where journalism is dying, you know where to find it.

65:03Oti: Yeah.

65:04KT: And in a world where critique is dying, you know where to find us.

65:09Oti: Mm-hmm.

65:10KT: Uh, on Twitter and Instagram we're @ForYourRefPod.

65:15Oti: Write us an email. Uh hello@fyrpodcast.com.

65:20KT: We're also on Oti made me watch Chainsaw Man in lead up to the Reze Arc podcast. If you love to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys on the next one. See

65:34Oti: See you.