The White Tiger – Ashok and awe

Full transcript of The White Tiger – Ashok and awe.

0:00KT: Howdy. Welcome to another week in the For Your Reference podcast. We are starting off with a very special Quid Pro Mo.

0:08Oti: Mhmm.

0:09KT: Oh, choice because check us out. We ask questions. Hey, Twinnie, while you're at it. And that's what happens, beloved friends and lovers, when you don't have a fucking promo. Sam, we love you. Thank you so much. Everyone else, make sure you are subscribed to Movie Reviews in 20 Qs on your podcatchers because you will see a lovely collaboration with us talking about Upgrade this week. Yeah. We really had a good time. Oh, absolutely.

0:43KT: Oti is still working on his dodgy screenplay. So that's a teaser for you guys as well. Before we get into more troubles, Goys, before we get pushed into prickles, let's continue on with the show. Namaste, friends and underdog lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:43Oti: And Oti.

0:43KT: Meet me in the dark basement as we plot to break through the rooster coop. Join the revolt as we roar into the 2021 film, The White Tiger. We

1:40KT: love social class, Oti, and we're going to keep finding films to talk about it. Let's get into the stats. This is based on a book by Aravind Adiga. The director is Ramin Bahrani. Executive producer's Priyanka Chopra Jonas, who will be referred to as Priyanka Chopra Jonas sometimes in publications and in my non learned Wiki articles. It does refer to her as Priyanka Chopra, but we know that Nick Jonas gets jealous, so we need to make sure that we have the last part of her name in there. Executive producers, we also have Prem Akkaraju

2:20KT: and Ava DuVernay. Oh. Yeah. It was lovely to see her name in the credits. And we absolutely love Ava DuVernay. It's been a long time, but we did cover When They See Us. So feel free to go check out that episode after this one. This film was released on Netflix January 2021, pretty much around the world. So that's quite nice to have a global discussion. And here we are to slap our thinking's on it. Mhmm. Didn't you thunk it, Oti?

2:20Oti: I thunk it good.

2:20KT: In regards to the top billing actors, we have Adarsh Gourav,

2:57KT: Rajkummar Rao, and Priyanka Chopra Jonas. Mhmm.

2:57Oti: Yeah. Wow. It was a really, really good movie.

2:57KT: Oh, I I am putting it on my mantle of not perfect films, but films that I really enjoyed watching and have meaty social commentary added to El Hoyo and obviously the perfect film ever made Parasite. Song Kang-ho, the daddy of everybody. He's like the Abraham of Korean cinema. Wow. Well, let's get into our first impressions, Oti. As with many of films covering social class, I have quite a lot of tantalizing themes

3:41KT: that I want to be able to cover in this episode today. But before we get into it, let's talk about First Impressions. This is based on a novel. And I guess, what what did you know about it? How did you feel throughout the viewing experience?

3:57Oti: There are lot of little movies where I watch the trailer and I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna watch this and I'm gonna enjoy it. But when you watch the trailer for this, it's stuck. Yeah. And when you're watching it, it doesn't doesn't disappoint one bit. It covers a lot of themes like you've said and a lot of things that are quite relatable.

4:16Oti: And I just can't wait to talk about it further because I think it's one of the movies that everyone should watch.

4:16KT: Okay. So this is very interesting. And I did mention Parasite and El Hoyo, otherwise known as The Platform for English speaking friends and lovers, including me. It's a it's an interesting phenomenon when we come to review these that we come to find out that I always root for the underdog. And when I've bought into the premise of the film, particularly in regards to the disparity of social class,

4:47KT: I am ready to burn everything all to the ground. So just generally, how did you feel with Balram? Did you feel like you were in the trenches with him or you still a bit like, calm down, mate?

4:54Oti: Oh, no. Not to the trenches to the point of where he went to the extent. I was like, yeah, nah, man. Okay. The the aspect to I was like, yeah, that's a bit too much.

4:54KT: Okay. Interesting. Interesting. I'm very excited

5:14KT: to get into it. It's always in our household, But especially when we get on themes like this, it definitely shows that however you wanna use your abacus, Oti comes from a very privileged perspective. You know, you should be grateful the rich people are even not spitting on you guys.

5:36Oti: Come on now.

5:40KT: I guess before I get into my first impressions, this is the time to say spoiler spoiler spoiler. And in every sense of the word, splooshes splooshes splooshes because I fucking love this film. It's even been a couple of weeks since we've watched it, but I've always been on the ready. Like in many splooshy ways, I'm always ready for you, Oti. But I love this film. I really gravitate towards insular sort of stories. And if you throw in something about the struggle of the underdog and them trying to burn everything,

6:14KT: I am all the way in. I feel like this is the perfect Venn diagram of KT's loves in films. And perhaps Oti would agree that I'm as stacked as a Venn diagram.

6:28Oti: Yep.

6:31KT: I love this film. I think this film is great. I can't wait for some time to go away before I can watch it. But before I watch it again, I do wanna read the book because I think it would be quite interesting. And obviously there'll be a lot of detail that wasn't in the movie that can really only fit in a book. So let's get into

6:51KT: some of the themes or, you know, some thoughts that I wanted to get into in regards to the films. And obviously, we will be touching on characters, but if we don't get to characters we want to, we can round off with that as well. I wanna start off with the storytelling style because I didn't realize that I didn't I'm not to the point of like Morty from Rick and Morty when he gets annoyed with the story starting with five months earlier. Like, I'm not at that point,

7:20KT: but I do kind of get annoyed when the story is inside a story. So in the world of The White Tiger, it was him writing a letter to a politician, right, to be able to arrange a meeting. And I guess if you think about Life of Pi as well, it's like the story is being told through a retelling.

7:42Oti: I wouldn't say it bothers me, but I would definitely say it's not my go to storytelling style. I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it. It it it while you're watching, you're like, fucking hell, mate. How much are you putting into this letter? How many details are you gonna tell? And for some reason, at the end of it, you think that this guy would want to work with you after everything you've done. Yeah. Kill he admitted to killing a man. He he killed he not only killed a man, but in so doing,

8:10Oti: he made sure that his entire family was swept out. And let's leave that because I definitely

8:16KT: I definitely wanna talk about that because there were a lot of casualties. Oh my. Was that an anime reference? Yeah. Watch out for our Attack on Titan episode, friends and lovers. To say it all to say it all, I don't know you got. I I feel like at times that can kind of become a crutch. And I really felt like the story was good enough to not need the device of a letter.

8:48KT: He could have just been sitting in a corner telling himself the story and I would him.

8:48Oti: Telling the cousin. He he took someone out of her under

8:48KT: Actually, his yeah. You're right. Just tell him because he's been from the same background. He'd probably understand a lot of the decisions that he made. Yeah. So to to say that I get it that India and China are are are the biggest sort of growing economies,

9:11KT: but to folly yourself into thinking that in this sort of confessional you're writing,

9:11Oti: it was a confessional.

9:11KT: Oh yeah, absolutely. You're writing this man that somehow, oh wow, would partner up and would take away all Western countries will be no more. But that's where the ass falls out. Is that the phrase, Oti?

9:11Oti: It is. Is

9:32KT: in our household, but that's where the ass falls out because for me, it's a very flimsy thing. And like you're saying, it's a letter, not like an editorial. So I feel like that kinda got a bit distracting for me, but I'm not that petty. I'm petty in many ways, but I'm not that petty. I just didn't care for a story within a story, although I do prefer this over a Tenet fucking the story in the fucking story. So

10:03KT: let's talk about the fucks that we like to do in our household. Let's talk generally about social class in this film. Because, you know, all around the world, social class is something that is fortunately, unfortunately still adhered to to this day. But even within India, they have the caste system. So it adds an extra layer, you know, Ethan Hawke Predestination,

10:30KT: you know, before you even get a chance, you're already put into buckets of where you will succeed or whether you can succeed at all. Yeah. Your life has pretty much been mapped out. Yeah. There's very little room for growing vertically.

10:44Oti: Mhmm. It's just a matter of stay in your lane, stay in your ground, and that's the end, you know? And to the point where Balram had dreamed for something bigger for himself, his whole family was just content. Yeah. Even his brother that he took that, his brother he thought that he was way better or he had ambition beyond that, life beat him to it. Yeah, absolutely. The grandmother made sure, mate, you're here to provide for the family,

11:13KT: quit school, do the hard work. Mhmm. Oh man, it was sad ass. There were some notable quotes in this film that reminded me of like Scorsese and like The Departed. There were men with big bellies and men with small bellies. But, you know, he he talks about how his caste and where he comes from, it's you know, they're the sweet makers and they're not really destined for anything more. So it is very interesting, but also when you realize it's real and unfortunately people are being adhered to that, it makes it really sad. It becomes,

11:49KT: you know, that sad tonality. There's a lot of tonality throughout this film. Light and darkness, very similar to the perfect splooshy winning Parasite. Right? Where you where there is the use of literal light and literal darkness, but even in the themes as well. Oh, for sure. A film that is able and provides commentary on the harsh realities indicator of a compelling story. Mhmm. And what I mean by that is

12:19KT: they're not just showing a view of India that is very tourist friendly and everyone loves, and it's all painted with a very nostalgic rose tinted brush. This film really does hold to account the systems that are in place in India and how those systems keep the oppressed oppressed. Yep. And I love stories that go that extra mile. It's very similar to splooshy winning 4 Blocks because it was a German show, but they also held the system and police authorities to account.

12:56Oti: Yeah. They don't shy away from their faults.

13:01KT: Mhmm.

13:02Oti: I think this is one of the things that really made this movie stand out for me. Mhmm. Because in Balram, you get to experience a lot of the things that happen in a lot of countries. Some of them wouldn't even want to admit in a million years, but we get to see it uncovered in such a way that you feel sorry, you feel angry, you feel so disillusioned by it all. Mhmm. So that when things are happening to Balram, just because he was born at a was not born rich. He belonged

13:36Oti: to a tribe or whatever the fuck. Like it's far out, man. Right? Yeah.

13:42KT: I I also I don't know if you wanna have a discussion on it, but I just wanted to point out that the use of language was very interesting because Hindi and English are used in this film. Balram always spoke English as a point to prove his privilege and his education. Right? And whenever he talked to his family, he went back to Hindi.

14:05Oti: Yeah. But then his education was stunted. Like, he he had to quit school.

14:11KT: I feel like as much as I was enjoying the film, you knew that for some reason he would not be able to excel and continue in that school. Right? Oh yeah.

14:21Oti: Him being told, oh, you're the white tiger. You're going to go far. Let's go. Let's take give you a scholarship and go land somewhere else. Like was never gonna happen. Yeah. When you've got your family to think about, oh, they need you to be part of the labor to bring money in. Yeah. It's disappointing how we live or how some countries live and people just turn a blind eye.

14:45KT: Yeah. And the the sadness is also relatable. I I think, you know, even without being Indian and and, you know, even with having all of the different experiences, our frame of reference, if you're nasty, there are some really real universal themes that we can feel through Balram. Because I feel like

15:09KT: not throughout the whole film, there were moments where I wasn't rooting for him, but I could also understand why he moved in a particular way, why he decided particular things. I think I was a bit more understanding than you were.

15:09Oti: Yeah. But then there were moments where I I

15:25Oti: appreciate that he wasn't subservient. I appreciate that he showed his claws and he pushed back. When Ashok was beating him or trying to punch him, like, I'm glad he spoke up. Yeah. Because you need to speak up when that shit happens. Yep. That shit isn't right. So the moment Joel's like, yes, Balram. Good on you. Yeah. And then he'd go on and do something completely different. I'll be like, me.

15:51Oti: And true, like, he he he doesn't need to be perfect for this to be enjoyable for you to resonate with him, and I accept that. I fully accept that. But there were decisions in this movie that he made, and I was fully not on board.

15:51KT: I was. Yippee ki yay, motherfucker. I was on board.

16:11KT: There was a very interesting phrase in this film saying Balram is the new India. And it's interesting to see what that represents because Bangalore is kind of like the emerging IT hub. Right? A lot of big companies from America, even Silicon Valley, have moved or are going to move their headquarters to Bangalore. It's a very hip and happening place. And even Ashok was talking about it in the film as well. So it really does come to full circle, but it also represents being able to succeed irregardless of where you were Ethan Hawke predestined to be.

16:49Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. And I think a lot of the times when we watch movies like this, we feel like they're put in a box or the protagonist at at least in in this very instance, Balram is put in a box. And the way he tries to claw out and the decisions he makes, not only is he trying to obliter himself, but he's trying to treat people differently. Yeah. I think that's what I appreciated with Balram.

17:18Oti: But it was it was sometimes he did care and sometimes he didn't. I think on his way up the ladder, he didn't care who he hurt. But once he felt that he got on top, he did not pull the ladder right up under him. He tried to reach out a hand and he treated his employees very extensively.

17:37KT: Yeah. Yeah. Not servants because there's definitely a difference. Like, he wouldn't bring them home to have dinner with him, but he also treated them with dignity. And that was the difference. Right? There's also an interesting quote through the film where he says, there's two ways for a poor man to get rich, crime and politics.

17:37Oti: Yep. And that was Pretty much the same thing.

17:37KT: Nice. Thank you, Oti and the Black Messiah. Mhmm. Or just Oti and the Messiah. Or just the Messiah, mate. Because why?

18:06Oti: It's redundant.

18:11KT: I also just wanted to get through another quote when he says, rich men are born with opportunities they can waste. Yep. So it must have been very infuriating for Balram to see Ashok just throw away opportunities.

18:26Oti: Yeah. Because he does not realize what he has in hand. He doesn't realize the potential and the opportunities that just keep on coming at him. And it's like, yeah, I'm not good now. I'll just do it later. Do I really wanna do this? Like that's an open that's a that's a conversation that someone from Balram's

18:45Oti: Would never be able to have. Would never be able to have. Can't even dream of. Yeah. You have a chance to uplift yourself, to be better and you're like, yeah, nah, the next one, some other time. And the problem is, he does have another time. He does have some other time to just fall back on whatever he needs. There are so many networks he can burn through before he runs out of any. I

19:09KT: I I guess on a lighter note in regards to social class, I wanted to touch on the moments where it became really, you know, prevalent to Balram that he wasn't born from the same cloth. Examples of that is when he gets mad and he curses his father, that he never taught him to brush his teeth, but also when he he scratched his crotch when he was giving them tea. So I need to, I just need to address this. So I get that, you know, obviously he wasn't raised in the same homes

19:48KT: that the Stork family was in. However, he did seem to go to some sort of boarding school. And from my understanding, boarding schools by a default usually try and teach manners, or is that just me overextending Western ideals?

20:05Oti: You overextending Western ideals because scratching your balls is as normal as as they come. You know? You don't know you can't scratch your balls while serving tea. Don't need to tell them how we keep things spicier tea. He doesn't brush his teeth. He was never taught this stuff. So scratching balls is the foulest, especially over your trouser. He's like, mate, It's change gin not like I put my hand in there. No. It's panini friendly. Yeah. So I fully understood that like

20:39KT: and I think that's why I love how how and when you choose to reveal parts of yourself literally on this podcast. It's it's so interesting my love.

20:45Oti: No. Because you have to understand the situation as well. It's not just him trying to be unhygienic. He just doesn't Yeah. Know any

20:56KT: It was just a funny example. But this goes into the next theme I wanted to talk to, and let's let's go back to that theme because Pinky was there. And I had a problem with Pinky. I had a problem with Ashok because they talk about, you know, treating servants like humans, but they still treat them as servants. You see what I'm saying? So in that particular scene, she was so abhorrent. She was so

21:25KT: disgusted. She was yelling at him, which she had never have done because she was acting like they were BFFs before. Right? And then you have Ashok. You have them literally sacrificing him for the hit and run, which we need to get to in proper detail. Oh, but he looked very sad in the corner. And the way yeah. And the way that daddy Stork was like kicking Balram and then they did nothing about it. So you're not OG cruel to the servants,

21:54KT: but you're still allowing it and you're still benefiting from the servant system.

21:54Oti: One thing that got my attention at least was when Balram said to Ashok, oh, don't worry. We have our we have my master and I'll be your servant. No. No. No. No. No. No. Don't call me your master. What about him being your servant, mate? Yeah. What does that have to do?

21:54KT: But it's like it's semantics. Yeah? Because he's still doting over you and whenever you want to, which was shown many times, even with Pinky, that's why I felt a bit I had a bit of qualm.

22:25KT: They pulled rank very fast. Know your place. Exactly. Know your place. Just because you're not like punching him in the face, you might as well because then at least he knows where he stands with you. Don't do all of this kumbaya, we're best friends, and then let you take a beating and take a sign off a hit and run. Yeah. And it I think they also assumed that he couldn't read English.

22:50Oti: Because remember he was actually reading the paper. Yeah. He was like, oh, you can sign here with your thumbprint. He was like, no, mate. Can I sign my own document? Thank you very much.

23:00KT: But it was very interesting. And I'm glad that in some cases we actually agree on something. Because for me, you're not a better person just because you're nice to them sometimes. You're still perpetuating the system that allows people to be in a servant sort of capacity. So you're not better than anyone. Yeah. Let's go into the next theme that I have, which I would say is Oti's favorite topic on the For Your Reference podcast and in the For Your Reference household, bribing politicians, Oti.

23:33Oti: So here's what happens. We have the great socialist Mhmm. Who is supposed to be this icon and beacon for everyone in the lower class Outwardly. Yep. To look up to. Mhmm. You know, if she can make it there, if she can make it at the pinnacle Yeah. Then may our lives like we can do anything, we can achieve anything. But whatever her values, whatever got her there, you can pretty quickly see she wasn't applying any of that. No. Why would she? She was like, mate, this rich people from the higher class purportedly

24:10Oti: don't wanna pay tax. Yeah. Cool. Give it to me. Me tax. Pay me. Yeah. Pay me. It's it's the me economy. It's the me fucking economy everywhere that just could it's a it's a vicious cycle. Just what is And going you could tell that even his when the socialist was at the Storks' house and she was trying to engage with him, you could tell the tone. Like, she she wasn't dismissive.

24:36Oti: She she treated him like pretty much human. Yeah. You know? And she pretty much told the Stork family to shut the fuck up and sit down. Yeah. Even spot. She spot. Like she made sure she showed them that I think you're trash. I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. You need me to succeed. Exactly. And they backed the wrong politicians only for her to win.

25:01Oti: But I think it was just an ego thing. I think it was a pride thing. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

25:01KT: And do you think it's also the fact that she was a woman or not?

25:01Oti: Yeah. Plus you can imagine the shit she's had to go through Oh, absolutely. For her to be there. Absolutely. You can just imagine. And I don't hold any sort of feeling for her like just being like that because may she can dish it out because I'm pretty sure she got it a million times worse. And corruption in politics is rife, man. Like,

25:27KT: absolutely. And even if you do have well intentioned people, they usually get weeded out. So, you know, it becomes a self serving cycle. Like our ever eternal Daniel Kaluuya as W'Kabi in Black Panther. Kaluuya forever. Hallelujah. Hallelujah, Oti. So yeah, it was very interesting. I did feel like it was more of a pride thing. I think they're just like, fuck you. We're gonna go with another politician without realizing she was the people.

25:58Oti: She was the people's champ.

25:59KT: And they ended up paying more money than they would have if they have just given her the money in the first place. It's interesting. And I think it is a dick swinging contest as well. It's like, I'm so rich. Why would I bow to you? Right? Yeah. I think it was a bit of like the dick measuring as well. Let's move on to betraying others to advance yourself. We have referenced, go and listen to our Judas and the Black Messiah episode. It is my favorite Oti collectible.

26:32KT: But I do wanna talk about this because there were many decisions that I was not comfortable with. So I loved whenever Balram was like sticking it to the higher class, I was all the way in. But when he was stepping on his own or people in a similar sort of standing, that made me uncomfortable, upset, and angry.

26:54Oti: There are many faces of Balram. And a lot of the time we saw his ambition, that was very clear. But then we'd see this very nasty side. Yeah. A side that despised his own. Yeah. The moments that the statements that he'd make and he would just stop me on my tracks. I'll be like, what the fuck? Yeah. Like, no one's asking you to do that. You said that yourself. You're going beyond

27:19Oti: what your masters even expect. I don't even think Ashok expected some of the things that Balram was saying. You know, whether or not you're trying to it was I think to me, it was beyond him trying to please his master. It was just a matter of him not liking himself.

27:19KT: I was gonna say self hatred.

27:19Oti: Yeah. He is the epitome of Uncle Ruckus. Yeah. And like a Snyder cut. Yeah. Because self hatred,

27:43Oti: you don't value yourself. You don't see yourself as, you know Yeah. Worth anything. And you just broadcast that to everyone else around you in your circles. And how he even after the hit and run, the things he said, don't worry. They probably have other kids. They probably have a million They won't even miss it. Just go on. Like it's a fucking It's fucking human life. It's like you're going out of your way to say hurtful, hateful things for people that are really just struggling to live. Yeah.

28:13KT: I yeah. I wasn't for it. There were definitely moments and decisions. And even when he revealed to the Stork family that the main driver, the number one driver was Muslim because they knew that the Stork daddy in particular had a prejudice. Right? And he had like he had his future in his hands and he took it away from him. I didn't feel like that was right.

28:41Oti: It wasn't. I think I even begged. He begged. Don't do this. Because I feel like he still would have been able to advance in other ways. You're still the secondary driver. You can you can move up, you know, you know, just think of something. Yeah. Other than trying to bring someone else down who's, you know, also in in a similar situation as he

28:54KT: But it seemed like he had a family as well. Yeah. And it's like everyone's trying to struggle, bro. But you're you're a 100% on the money. Self hatred played the key leading role in this film in regards to Balram.

29:15KT: Director and writer for the film, Ramin, talked about trying to cast the actor, and he didn't want someone that was an actual actor playing into a lower class sort of role. And when he met Adarsh, he knew a 100% it would be him because he has this really sweet smile, which he does. But if you look at him when he's not aware, he has this laser cutter focus. Right? And the casting was brilliant, absolutely brilliant in this film. And I'm very excited to see where Adarsh goes beyond this. But he really played Balram intrinsically

29:54KT: and through all of the feelings that were really frustrating, it definitely pulled home what I'm assuming was hoping to be achieved in this film. Something that I didn't mind, one of his decisions was when he started making like fake invoices for petrol and he kind of ubered out the car. That didn't bother me. Yeah. Oh, get yours, mate. So I think it really is when he's punching down or

30:24Oti: Under naivete under naivete of Ashok to think that he was somewhere else praying for him.

30:31KT: Oh, you must have been praying for me. Oh, man. He's so self absorbed, but that would make you even more frustrated. Right? Like you're not even trying to see the situation for what it is. Oh yeah. Did it make you feel sorry? Did it make you feel sorry for Ashok or not?

30:46Oti: No. No.

30:46KT: Yeah. Same.

30:46Oti: There are a lot of things, you know. At the very least, he could have stood up to his family whether consequences be damned. Yeah. My God. You saw Balram being pushed and kicked. Your wife. Yeah. Started speaking up against it and you're like, yeah, now I'll just stay out of this. Yeah. They were talking

31:10Oti: they're saying rude mean things to your wife and you're like, yeah, now I'm just gonna sit back because I don't wanna offend my pop.

31:10KT: Well, part of part of the problem is when they're being really cruel, but then they say something really funny and it breaks it breaks the tension. And it was when the dad was talking to Ashok saying, pieces of paper are good for hanging on bedroom walls where the wife should be. But it was very traditional and, know, far be it for me, I am pretty much as progressive

31:47KT: as they get. I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting to be traditional. When those traditional ideals make you not love your children because of that, then that's a story for another day. But if people are traditional and that's just how they are and they're not willfully hurting their children or other people, then that's fine. I think it's something that Pinky should have been aware of. And I also think go and listen to our only Pride and Prejudice recognized media

32:22KT: in our previous episode where I said love doesn't conquer all, and I'm going to bring it here as well. I guess I didn't really buy into the love story maybe because I didn't care about Ashok and Pinky, but their love wasn't enough. They both needed to realize that they came from two different worlds. Maybe they can speak similar languages, but culturally, you know, 4 Blocks, we talked about race and nationality, they're two different things. Yeah? Yep. So

32:50KT: for for Pinky to think that she was just going to be in India just for a little while, she's too smart to think that. And for Ashok to think that Pinky was just going to stay there for the rest of her days, well, he wasn't very smart anyway.

32:50Oti: Well, he kept on avoiding the question because Pinky brought it up a couple

33:08Oti: of times. She did. He just didn't say anything. Yeah. He knew that he wanted to stay there because daddy issues, then he couldn't just say that. He couldn't come out and say that. Yeah. He just thought Pinky would fall in line and stop asking and they'll just stay there forever. Yeah.

33:08KT: But it's like I said, love isn't enough sometimes. You need to be on some sort of equilibrium. Mhmm.

33:29KT: I have a note here in regards to holidays. Day trips were invented for Ashok and Pinky. One of these days, maybe on a Patreon, we'll talk about one of the day trips where we felt very uncomfortable. And it's it's not necessarily the day trip operators, it's more the demand of tourists and the tokenism, if you'll pardon the pun, of visiting certain places. But we're not going to get into that today. But yeah, I think they were doomed from the start, Ashok and Pinky, to be perfectly honest.

34:06KT: They were. Let's move on to the last theme before we get to characters specifically. I wanna talk about family obligations. So we can roll these both into one, but I've noted down marriage regardless of anything that Balram achieved and wanted to achieve. The grandma was always trying to bring him back like his brother, get him married, have some kids and stay where they are. And also borrowing money from the family, but it is specifically in regards to the granny

34:42KT: there. But yeah, I guess I'll just kick it off in regards to borrowing the money. It all comes back to obligation, I would Because my father to this day still reminds me that I borrowed $5 in high school. There's this interesting sort of power that family have, think they have over other family members, including younger family, whether it's children or grandchildren, whereby I provide for you, therefore I dictate what your life is. Yep. Because even if Balram paid back the amount of driving lessons for whatever reason because family,

35:26KT: he would still be under their thumb.

35:28Oti: It would be. And he got stuck there and his grandmother tied to her ways did not want to hear anything about it. Nope. Balram, we found your wife. You think you can run away. We'll just doesn't matter if you're here or not. We'll just you'll just get married out of bloody thin air. Yeah. It's bloody ridiculous.

35:47Oti: Yeah. How many times did Balram have to say no, no? And it didn't matter. That is not my life. That's not the life I want to lead. Yeah. But they just could not accept the fact that one of their own is trying to find their own path in life.

36:02Oti: Like, I get that you need to focus on the now and the fact that they don't have any money at all and they need to sustain, you know, the farm and the family that live there, but why can't he strive for more? I reckon if they're more supportive,

36:21Oti: none of this happens. Balram continued sending money and I'm sure he'd think twice before trying

36:27Oti: to stop Ashok.

36:27KT: You reckon?

36:27Oti: I reckon. I think he was Dude, if they showed semblance, just an inkling of of of of pride in having a kid who's, you know? He was very gifted. Yeah. Yeah. And seeing him, just being proud of him for a bit. Yeah. Showing that you love him for fuck's sake. But it's also realizing that he probably had more potential than any other kid they've come across. Yeah. He he he saw it and just thought that these people, they are the way they are.

36:27KT: But it's exactly that

36:59KT: deep seated resentment he has towards his family and also towards himself that I feel the train had already left the station. Like, everything that was gonna be laid out in this film was going to happen regardless, which I was absolutely all the way in for. But yeah, everyone knows on this podcast how I feel about familial ties, but I just wanted to bring it up because it was very interesting, know, him trying to get himself out of the situation to a better life compared to just always being told to come back, to come back.

37:34Oti: Even the first time he went back home, he was super excited. He was excited to see everyone. Yeah. Only for that to change really quickly. Their hands were out. Yep.

37:44KT: Man, it's like even my family in Tonga, I think we're millionaires. We're just always rolling around and sitting in money. But let's go into characters more specifically that we haven't really gone through. Let's talk about Balram's father. There wasn't really a lot of scenes in regards to him, but he was definitely used as like a catalyst of Balram remembering he needs to get out and do better. Because even the way that the grandmother talked, he had these nefarious dreams that materialized into nothing.

38:24Oti: And he wanted to she wanted to keep Balram more grounded. Yeah. The father probably, you know, he that was one of the saddest things about this movie because he know that unlike Balram, he didn't manage to get out. Yeah. He followed tradition. He caved in probably to what the mother said. Yeah. And you can tell that he didn't live a happy life. Yeah. And for Balram to lament and to feel angry, to feel less than because his father didn't give him the opportunities

38:57Oti: that he saw other people have out there. Yeah. That is some deep shit. I don't know. It's like, if you know that your kid

39:05KT: is naturally very smart, a savant, if you will, then you gotta nurture that surely. Now if your kid's a dumbass, just let them stay at the farm. If he can rub 2 pennies together, let him have a future. Which ended up working well if the family was still alive, which I wanna talk to, but in this scenario, if the family was still alive, that would actually serve the granny very well because he was very successful and it was making lots of money. Yeah. But let's talk to it. Do you believe that Stork killed the whole family?

39:43Oti: Yeah. They said like a lot of members from that region were killed, family members.

39:51KT: But I feel like they didn't focus on it too much. So if if you wanted to believe it wasn't, then you could continue to

39:51Oti: But Balram knew. And he knew that those guys were

39:51KT: I'm saying from a viewer's point of view, if you wanna pretend that it wasn't the family just so it's easier to digest, I think you could think that way if you wanted to.

39:51Oti: If live in a fairy land.

39:51KT: Yeah. But it's definitely foreshadowing because it comes to a line that, you know, was mentioned earlier, masters know about everything

40:24KT: in regards to the family for all of their servants for moments like this. Yep. So how does it now sit with you? How does it now sit with you that Balram, with all of his talents, managed to get far beyond anyone would have expected him to at the cost of not only innocent people like the Muslim driver, but also his whole family.

40:52Oti: I don't think it's it needed to take that much sacrifice to get there. But you'll never be the same, surely. He had an opportunity where he could just take the money, leave Ashok the way he was in the fucking car stuck and run. What would Ashok do? Ashok won't chase after you.

41:09KT: But it doesn't matter. We we were taught when the kid died from the hit and run, how things got handled in their family. Yeah? So they would have killed his family anyway, really. If not Ashok, definitely the dad.

41:09Oti: Maybe, but that was

41:09KT: So you you feel like it should have pulled its punch literally that he shouldn't have killed Ashok? No. Okay. I do feel like that. Like He was sticking it to the man.

41:38Oti: Man, being killed by a beer bottle or whatever bottle that was, that was a Yeah.

41:44KT: That's not a good way to go. And can I say that was one of the most like spine tingling, you know, the anticipating sort of scenes? I just wanted it to be over. Yeah. The way he was telling Ashok to like, get out of the car. Oh, I'm bending down to pick up this bottle. I'm like, can you just like end this? This is making me really anxious, which I guess is the point. And, you know, it wasn't Jonathan Wickenstein,

42:14KT: he was struggling to stab him in the neck, which is true. And I guess once the adrenaline is gone, he is still that normal human that's never killed someone before. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But you did make a comment when we were watching it that you don't think that that changed him. He just killed him.

42:33Oti: I don't think he did. I think he was already lucky, I don't know. He he had already committed that scene a lot of the times in his head. And when it finally happened, of course it took him aback for a second, but I don't think he regretted it, not one second. I don't think he felt any sort of remorse that he did that.

42:33KT: So there was no remorse for killing Ashok and no remorse for his family getting killed?

42:33Oti: You saw him, he those are the those are pause when he read the article

43:01Oti: and it was like, but he brushed her aside.

43:03KT: I just wanna believe there's complexity there. Maybe off screen, maybe I'm giving it too many graces. Know, December's a far way away, but tune in for our Christmas special where we rate everything we cover this year. I just wanna believe there was complexity. I think it's too easy to say that he didn't care. I think the craft in this film was being able to take us on the journey of him slowly not giving a fuck.

43:35Oti: Not only giving a fuck, but he hated. He hated Ashok. Yeah. It's not just it's just some bloke that because he was a soft and fluffy boy. He didn't do anything like he never worked a hard day's work. Yeah. But man, that's not how I saw this ending or how he'd steal Armani. To my mind, he should have just taken the money and run. His family probably would have been in trouble either way. But at least you give them a chance.

44:02Oti: I guess so. When when when Ashok died, he knew exactly what was gonna happen. He even said that when he was contemplating on what to do. Yeah. He said, if I do this, my family will be dead. Well, mate.

44:18KT: Well, you're right. You're right. I'm trying to, you know, paint a picture that isn't there. And I do agree that all of that did happen. But I I did enjoy, you know, the Breaking Bad, if you will, of Balram. Speaking of the Breaking Bad, we haven't really had a chance to talk about the Mongoose.

44:37Oti: And you know very well Mongoose is the one that did it. Oh yeah.

44:42KT: Oh, absolutely.

44:43Oti: Yeah. No doubt. No doubt about it. He did it. He's very traditional.

44:48KT: Well, was aware of the status that they had and he was fine keeping it. He didn't wanna rock any boats. He

44:56Oti: was an enforcer. The punisher. And wow. I think he's he's killed a lot of people before. Just just by the look of him. Well, they collect money from poor people and you know, to be that, then he's definitely ruffled a few feathers. If you're pardon the mongoose pun. While

45:19KT: we're finishing off, I guess there's a nod to Slumdog Millionaire, the reference in there. I feel like Slumdog Millionaire as much as I do love Lord and Sploosh Dev Patel. I feel like Slumdog Millionaire was a film that was of the time and it probably doesn't stand up.

45:37Oti: You reckon?

45:38KT: I think with the wealth of world cinema, it will come off very one dimensional.

45:46Oti: Oh.

45:47KT: Yeah. So I don't know, that's just me personally. I also wanted to give some plaudits to the metaphor of the rooster coop. I liked how it was agricultural, the way that they were able to, you know, make it a very common recurring sort of imagery throughout the film that you can compare to. There was also a lot of dialogue that referred to the rooster coop. Unfortunately, India in particular is dealing with decentralizing farming, which is very unfortunate. So I'm not sure if that's also timely for the rooster coop metaphor,

46:29KT: but it is interesting. You know, it talks to the bare primal instincts of all creatures. And I guess you could say including humans, because once you see the way someone gets punished for acting up, it kind of falls everyone in line. Yeah? Yep. And that's essentially what we were taught. Even though Balram was able to get out the rooster coop, even if it meant he was doing the damage to the roosters inside of the coop as well. Grab yourself a beverage, maybe a nice calming chamomile tea,

47:06KT: I think would be the nice way to go after this episode. We are finishing off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

47:06Oti: Just a spider face, I'm gonna reference Slumdog Millionaire.

47:06KT: Well, I guess that also means that you're willing to cover it on the podcast. Is that correct?

47:22Oti: Yep. I don't mind. Well,

47:25KT: this is the only face off I want because I also have a Dev Patel Delight.

47:25Oti: Do tell.

47:25KT: And I'm going to reference Lion.

47:25Oti: Nice.

47:25KT: A double Dev Patel feature if you're welcome, friends and lovers. If you'd like to see all of the love and splooshes on Twitter and Instagram, we're at for your ref pod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on Rooster Coop podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.