The Sandman – It was all a Dream

Full transcript of The Sandman – It was all a Dream.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household, and it's another Quid Pro Mo, Oti. There are friends, there are lovers and there are Netflix. Humper shoutouts to our dreamiest of friends and lovers, Dan and Caleb from Netflix 'N Swill. Every time something is beautiful or worth all of the scorn, I'm always tweeting at these fell.

0:27Oti: Mmm,

0:28KT: Thank you so much for being our pals along around the town. Um, and we might just let you win in Squid Game. Take the Pro Mo away. Hey, friends and squatter bloat lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT

1:14Oti: and Oti.

1:16KT: Brood over the state of humanity and hide behind the facade of biblical destiny center. Enter the D&D realm of the power of friendship with Netflix's The Sandman week.

1:31Oti: Woohoo.

1:34KT: Woohoohoo, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, crusty, crusty, crusty. All right. Let's get into general stats and information. And, uh, as a side note, I'm very excited to talk about the Gaiman sort of IP all around the networks and the streaming. But this Sandman was based on the Sandman by Neil Gaiman, Sam Kieth, and Mike Dringenberg. It was. This particular iteration was released in August of 2022 on Netflix in way of cast. We have Tom Sturridge who no one is asking, but during my peak Twilight forums was a fantasy casting for Edward. Boyd Holbrook.

2:14KT: He's the casting of my heart chambers. I love seeing him by the way. Mm-hmm , he's been in a lot of things we've been watching lately. Vivienne Acheampong, Patton Oswalt, Kirby Howell-Baptiste and Gwendoline Christie. Beautiful. Beautiful. Wow.

2:30Oti: white Yeah. And Eddie Karanja.

2:33KT: Woohoo. I'm just gonna ignore that. Like two minutes before this recording, you saw his name and you needed to claim your kin

2:41Oti: it's Kenya, bro.

2:46KT: well, uh, let's start off with first impressions, what we do around here, uh, Metallica aside, um, uh, OG lore aside. Um, what did you know about Neil Gaiman's Sandman? And what did you think about this?

3:01Oti: Zero knew nothing about it.

3:03KT: Okay. but, but you, you were aware of the lore of like the, the sand in children's eyes to get them to sleep, right?

3:10Oti: Yeah, but I never really bothered, I don't know. Neil Gaiman is an acquired taste.

3:15KT: Okay. Well, um, Catholic boy included. I thought you would be into that.

3:20Oti: Yeah,

3:23Oti: just, I never really bothered. Um, but people were excited because Sandman was coming on Netflix and I was like, oh, oh, I'll watch it. Um, just because to see what, what it's all about. And I was pleased, I enjoyed it quite a bit. Okay.

3:37KT: Interesting. Uh, someone that I'm very pleased by is our friend and lover, Julio shout outs to Julio, um, because he was very excited to hear us talk about the Sandman, but I guess time will tell if he doesn't enjoy this particular episode. Um, because from what I. Then The Sandman has been in the works or trying to be able to execute it in a way that is satisfactory to all of the fan boys, Star Wars and Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings aside.

4:07KT: Um, so, and I, I can kind of under. And there is a theme that I wanna talk about in regards to Neil Gaiman in general. So I'll just focus on this show. Um, I didn't know much, like you said, um, aside from the lore, um, all in all, I enjoyed it, even though Oti will make sure to say that I complained like for the first three episodes on every. but was I wrong though? You were okay. All right.

4:35Oti: What were you

4:36KT: we've got some self-awareness training. We need to do friends and lovers, but, um, you know, the thing I love about you, Oti

4:42Oti: rot mm-hmm

4:43KT: you, you make it a, a stance to be against or opposite to my opinions, but by the end of the recording, you agree with me?

4:52Oti: me?

4:52KT: I doubt that will happen here though. Well, let's see which orifices, my sand ends up in yours. My. Um, generally I did have some qualms, quarrels and quandaries, but we'll get to it. Um, all in all, uh, there were some moments to be enjoyed. There were some slow moments that I didn't necessarily care for, but when there were moments that were worked, they absolutely worked. The thing that I would say is what made it work. Wasn't the central character, which was Morpheus, or Dream, which becomes a problem when he's the main character.

5:29KT: any sort of levity was not offered through him, any sort of, um, learning or growth for a character was absolutely not through him.

5:38Oti: you reckon. Cause I think at the end of it, we, we get to see him a bit grown don't we like, he start, he, he's learning to relinquish a bit, a little more control, a little more control to, um, Lucienne, you know, that's, that's a bit of growth.

5:52KT: He understands that he doesn't have to control everything, but after all the amount of episodes. Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway, generally I enjoyed it. I, in essence, I enjoyed the th um, but the practical didn't necessarily deliver for me. The first theme that I wanted to talk about is Neil Gaiman works because when you, when we put it on the tapestry of. The Sandman is offering through Netflix. We have Good Omens through Amazon, and then we have American Gods through Starz.

6:25Oti: stuff

6:26KT: And the, I, I, I think, you know, and I, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Like if you love, Imagine Dragons, all of the songs could sound the same, but it can still give you different sort of sensory experiences. And I guess you could also say Guillermo del Toro as well. Like, you know, there are gonna be some sort of symbols of Catholicism with Guillermo del Toro, um, and maybe not strictly to Christianity, but you're going to have some sort of lore.

6:58KT: Um, and sometimes that does relate to Christianity in regards to like heaven and hell, um, in Sandman or even just American Gods or literally Good Omens. Right. So I, I would say of those three that we are talking about, I would say American Gods is the better offering. I think tonally, it really delivers there was something that felt a bit, not necessarily sanitized, but it felt like there were punches that were held, um, with the Netflix sort of format.

7:28Oti: I don't feel like they held anything back per se, where you're gonna compare it to American Gods and Good Omens. I think American Gods is slightly better than the rest.

7:36Oti: Um, but to a point, I think what Sandman does is what, what he failed to do in American Gods is making us care about Dream a bit. I think sooner than what we, we even thought Shadow Moon would be. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like in taking, going through Dream's, um, experiences and everything that he had to go through, we get to learn who he is as a, as a, as a character in this world and why he cares or doesn't really care, you know?

8:03KT: And. His drive for revenge and he trying to sort of balance, oh, should I revenge against these people? Who've locked me up for almost a century or what should I do next? Well, I think if we're talking about the, the dynamic of not always an old, but like a grumpy man that you know, has, has helped with friends along the way, um, Morpheus was more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino, where you would really wanna try to strive to be Sam Neill in Hunt for the Wilderpeople.

8:37Oti: thank

8:38KT: Like he was, ah, he was just so unnecessarily morose and I, I didn't care for him, but in regard to the Neil Gaiman works, I do like that you acknowledge that the American Gods delivers in regards to aesthetic cinematography tone, vulgarity dialogue. Come on. You've got Ian McShane.

8:59Oti: I think you can't have your ti in everything. I think that's the only reason if you had your

9:03KT: tea. Oh yes,

9:04Oti: It would, it would be head and shoulders above

9:08KT: Well, if you're doing it right, your tit is in your eyes whenever you're looking. Uh but I I, I just thought it was interesting. I, I just think it's interesting when you have. You know, the works of Neil Gaiman for example, and you see it translated through different networks or through different streaming. Um, and I, I do feel like there were moments that potentially, I don't know, they kind of cared the situation.

9:34KT: Um, they kind of Woodland creatured the situation. Um, when I really feel like we could have got into some depths, um, with the subject matter of The Sandman, speaking of a fundamental, uh, qualm, quarrel and quandary that we had with each other was not necessarily the lore.

9:52KT: But the intensity of consequences. So, um, we will talk about the characters I, you know, with The Umbrella Academy, um, we always talk about reading the first volume of The Boys, but it did come into fruition with the most recent season, um, of The Boys. But, you know, I do try and, um, Do research for, especially, you know, shows that are adapted from my comic books or novels from example, but I kind of wanted to stay where the TV show was.

10:21KT: The only real thing that I researched was Desire. Cause I wanted to learn more about Desire. Cause we didn't really learn more about Desire, um, in this particular TV show. So I feel like the. The lore wasn't necessarily rich. It was understandable enough. My qualm, quarrel, quandary was the intensity of consequences.

10:43KT: And I think, I don't know, like just based off of the little scraps, Oti and I have been having every episode of season one of The Sandman, I imagine this is going to take up a good chunk of this, um, particular review episode. Let's talk about the lore. Just so we're all on the same page. If you are part in the we have Sandman who his particular realm is about dreams.

11:08KT: There are seven siblings in Dream's family called the Endless, and there's only four that have appeared in season one. We have Destiny, Dream, Death and the twins, Desire and Despair.

11:21Oti: Mm mm-hmm

11:22KT: So everything works in the balance we even talk about, or, you know, whether you believe it or not, there's a presence of hell in the Sandman sort of Netflix universe. Right. So if we focus on Morpheus, he controls the dreaming. Right. And he it's, it's not just, you know, helping kids go to sleep, but it's literally the whole mechanism of the, the conscious sort of being and the lucid sort of dreaming. Right. he kind of exists as a conduit between these two sort of realms.

11:57KT: Anything that is is, is, um, I guess the unconscious is his sort of realm, right? Mm-hmm okay, cool. Like broad optics. I understand that. What I didn't understand, or I didn't necessarily care for was. There was such a big importance specifically from Morpheus because he had this heightened sense of self importance, which is very clear, but he was like, oh, you know, if this doesn't happen, then dreaming will cease to exist. Okay, bro. who cares? Who cares? People

12:35Oti: people who have loved ones who are not able to wake up from this sleeping, because what, you know, we had Unity ADE's grandmother who slept for years, you know, and she couldn't wake up.

12:46KT: That's one of the effects of him being taken. So imagine if the dreaming completely collapses and the effect that we have on society. Okay. So we need to, we need to actually talk about this problem. Cause I think this is part of the problem with religion, but even in here with creating a mythos. In which applies to all circumstances. Because even while the dreaming existed, people were dying in their sleep or sleeping forever. So what's the fucking difference. He's just hiding behind a biblical facade.

13:19Oti: No, the difference is now this would be widespread. People dying in their sleep is the work of Death. You know, it's their time.

13:26KT: That's fine, but it's not Death. That's why you pointed it out to me. When we're watching the show, he doesn't kill them. They just, they just stay in purgatory for sleeping big whoop you mean I don't have to pay bills and go to a nine to five? Yeah. Send me to the purgatory motherfucker.

13:43Oti: not everyone wants to check up like that.

13:45KT: Just like put some wine in some IV and I'll be fine, bro. Like you can't even articulate to me. And I'm, I'm calling, I'm calling out Julio. He loves Sandman so much and come and fight everyone come and fight me in my personal Twitter DMs, and also on our podcast DMs. I don't get it big. Whoop. I love a good dream. Imagine, imagine, you know,

14:08Oti: imagine the effect society would have, if a million people were to sleep and only 2,200,000 woke up, you know, it's it's

14:16KT: like, like I don't understand, like I, more than anyone, every time it's close to my time of the month, Adam Driver, I have some very wholesome, wholesome. I have some very wholesome dreams about Adam Driver monthly, but big whoop. Like, I don't care about Dr. Like what does the dreams do?

14:36Oti: Not the dreams. Like if, if, if, imagine

14:39KT: imagine it's important, cause you're telling me it's important. You see the. If Kuririn dies a hundred times in Dragon Ball and 80% of the sagas are requests for the Dragon Balls to revive Kuririn, or English dub people, Krillin, who cares it's of no consequence. Yeah. Cool.

14:59Oti: You can't, you can't say oh, because Krillin die over and over. No one cares. Krillin cares.

15:06KT: Do you care?

15:06Oti: I do

15:07KT: Mm.

15:08Oti: see. And this is where you need to, to see it. Society. Doesn't just operate like in a vacuum. You have people need to be out there walking.

15:18KT: No, no, not fucking falling asleep and never waking up. What the fuck is that nonsense? The world does in know it to fucking end. I am not convinced it's it's important because they're telling me it's important. Not because it's been conveyed through characters and resonating in mine. Chambers. That's what I'm saying. And even what you're saying now, and even the thought of dreaming about Adam Driver monthly, doesn't save the sanctity of dreams for me personally.

15:46KT: So that was part of the problem with me, because that was the foundational sort of pool for this show. We need to restore the dream land for Morpheus so that people can dream again. Big whoop

15:59Oti: didn't didn't we also have a conversation around, uh, Lucifer saying, oh, dream is the only thing keeping us away from

16:05KT: oh, boo.

16:07Oti: the dreaming.

16:08KT: imagine that imagine, imagine, oh, fucking peace from hell. Running rampant, you know, breaking the barrier between the dreaming and, and, and, and what's reality. That sounds like some fucking Intel shit. So, because I can see a supermodel, maybe even Adam Driver, because I can see him Adam Driver, and I know I'll never get Adam Driver. That's my hill. Fuck off.

16:32Oti: Well, imagine I would drive with fucking, to Tony dicks. I dunno. What's

16:38KT: tell, tell me, you've also been having monthly dreams of Adam Driver, O. But that's what I'm not like, like it's fine that we don't agree, but I feel like no, one's really bringing to the table to me. Why it's important?

16:52Oti: No, I think to you, you need to sort of,

16:55KT: I don't need to do anything, how

16:57Oti: You need to do the work in terms of accepting the society needs people, fucking being at their best to survive and to, to continue.

17:06KT: does that even mean?

17:07Oti: Like imagine half the fucking world not waking up, this is not Donald's shit,

17:11KT: but what does it matter to me?

17:12Oti: It matters to you because, Hey, I I'd be sleeping. They're not waking up. Would you, would that not matter to you if I didn't wake up the next morning and I slept for X number of years?

17:22KT: Okay. But now you're getting personal

17:24Oti: No, but that's the thing, right? Everyone has their own,

17:27KT: well, it was nice knowing you then enjoy

17:29Oti: good. mean

17:31KT: night Catholic boy.

17:32Oti: See you, you are looking at it and say, oh, I, I don't care. I don't care. As long as it doesn't happen to me. But what happens to your loved ones?

17:39KT: See, that's the thing, right? what if you were eating razor shop candy from Candyman, like it's of no consequence. My love

17:51Oti: Then, if you're looking at that, that nothing has nothing is of consequence. We spent four years following sh Ian McShane in American Gods doing Bon fuck nothing. Uh, you know, and, and you love it so much.

18:03Oti: At least with this, we get to see effects and consequences of. A Morpheus existing and Morpheus, not existing. What he controls, who are his enemies, who are his siblings? What happens, why there's like, like they, they built the world so richly and that, you know, it was a slow burn, but it was so many details engrossed in it. And I was like, I'm there for it. Build this world for me. I want to solution it. Can I bring up an example that will hurt your feelings?

18:33Oti: Yeah.

18:34KT: How about, um, you know, where we got all of the Avengers and the war cry, Avengers assemble, who cares? like, who cares? I don't care.

18:46Oti: See, I care. I, I, I tear up. I cried.

18:50KT: Okay. Congratulations. But big like, I don't care. I don't care.

18:55Oti: See, and then maybe you are not the audience. You know, and that's fine.

19:01KT: Wow. Okay. Mr.

19:04Oti: I don't even say like you don't have to like everything. You don't have to buy into everything.

19:08KT: Well, well, well, let's, let's take a couple of steps back. If we were talking about, you know, um, American Gods through way of Starz, let's talk about Spartacus. Spartacus, cuz you are saying nothing matters and you're correct. Unless the show does the groundwork, whether you resonate or not is a personal sort of preference. But whether if it doesn't do the groundwork, there's no chance to have the resonance.

19:29KT: But when I say Spartacus, you feel something right. And you know, when I say, why was it important for the rebellion to be successful? You know why? Because it did the groundwork

19:41Oti: then who cares that, that I could ask the same thing.

19:43KT: So, you know, would you say who cares about Spartacus, you would

19:47Oti: just playing devil's advocate. Someone would only would come in and say, who cares? You know,

19:52KT: J can get in the bin like you then

19:56Oti: if the rebellion doesn't matter to anyone, it doesn't affect you if you are, if you are. Um,

20:00KT: but how about you? Do you personally care about Spartacus and the rebellion? Yeah. Then fuck off

20:06Oti: the S is out there that don't give a fuck. You know,

20:08KT: you were, you were using a specific example about you never waking up, and then you're generally talking about how no one cares about Spartacus, it's a moot point.

20:18Oti: I'm just saying you can't say that.

20:20KT: I can say whatever I want

20:22Oti: And that's fine. We can all accept that. A, you don't think that the effect and the consequences of a Morpheus existing doesn't stack up to whatever you think it should be to me. I think it does. And I think there's still building the world where we get to know more and more about Morpheus as a character,

20:39KT: But do you see

20:39Oti: the world itself,

20:40KT: do you see how I'm not trying to change your mind,

20:42Oti: I'm not trying to change your mind.

20:44KT: bro. You've been so bent on being like, you can't do this, you can't do that. I can do whatever I want, motherfucker.

20:51Oti: And that's fair enough. I'm not even trying to get, keep this

20:54KT: year. Yes you're and I don't even know why, because trust me, friends and lovers will get to our Christmas special. And I, I, I doubt there'll be near a 10 in place for The Sandman. They'll be narrow 10. I don't even know why your fighting's are fucking hard for this show. We're allowed to watch things and enjoy it, or, or, you know, um, um, accept it or absorb it. However we want, Oti.

21:20Oti: and I agree.

21:21KT: I wanna talk to Morpheus

21:23Oti: And I agree, especially having watched Neil Gaiman shit before I know it's a slow burn, so I'm there for the journey.

21:30Oti: And I know that it's going to continue building up and building up slowly. So I'm not gonna write anything off and feeling like I said, oh, Morpheus is not gonna do shit. Or he is annoying. He's not going to land. He's not gonna. Because I know that's not true. He's shown signs of growth. You know, doesn't, doesn't have to be a degree to what you accept, but there is still growth. You know, we have characters that are pushing him and continue to push him and that's all we can ask for. Okay, cool.

22:01Oti: Oh my God.

22:03KT: but friends and lovers, I think this also points out like I'm picky with what I wanna watch. Oti will watch anything, even if he doesn't like it. And for me, I'm too old. , I'm too old and I've been through too much shit in my.

22:15KT: To watch things. And first of all, not say something if I have feedback. And second of all, just if I don't enjoy it, bye, like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to anyway. I, I don't know why you feel the need to, at least when Adam Driver tells me to do things in my dreams, it's pleasurable.

22:37Oti: Wow,

22:38KT: You're welcome. Uh, let's move on to the next theme, the paper thin morality. You kind of talked about it already. I kind of wanna talk about hell as its own sort of topic, but when I talk about the paper thin morality, I, again, I do think it has to do with. The ratings or the audience that they were particularly trying to target.

23:02KT: I feel like American Gods worked because when they wanted to go all the way, deep Quis, deep, if you're nasty, they really went all the way there, whether it's in regards to like explicit sort of content or whether it's fully, fully following through on the consequences or the impact of a particular testing of morality.

23:23KT: And I, I guess the examples. Um, that I would give is very early. Um, maybe even in the first couple of episodes, we have John Dee, you know, we have, uh, a grown man, um, that has been shielded from the world. And, you know, even to the detriment of his own mother, There's a lot of sentiment that he has about, oh, I need to protect this by all means possible for the sake of humanity.

23:52KT: And it's like, you don't care about humanity. Like, why are you acting like you're on some virtuous noble sort of quest? And I guess I could also be talking about Morpheus as well. Um, and then we seen. In the diner orgy. Like if you, if you wanna have an orgy, that's fine, but I didn't care for the preamble of it.

24:11KT: Um, I, I will say potential trigger warning for sexual assault, but I'm not going and get into detail. Um, but there was so with the worker at the diner, she was crushing on the chef, but it seemed like the chef was fucking the son, but it was hard to tell whether it was consensual or not. I guess what I didn't like about what I didn't like about it was if left to their own devices, humans would be so depraved and it's like, fuck off.

24:44KT: It's the same sort of sentiment of like, we need religion to know, not to go out and punch people in the face. You know what I mean? Morality and religion. Aren't mutual. Exclusive. And that's what I didn't necessarily care for it because they kept making these platitudes of look how evil man is. Man will stab you for no reason or out of jealous fan fair.

25:07KT: And it's like, no, it's like, if you actually wanna talk about the intricacies of the human experience, then let's fucking explore that. Let's not just have some wild. Wild rump orgy inside of a diner. Fuck who we want. Kill who we want. Um, sodomize, who we want, right?

25:26Oti: Yeah. I I'm with you on this. That episode was was not great. You could get in the bin anytime. Yeah. Um, I don't understand the messaging. They were trying to pass across because a humans don't work like that.

25:40KT: Yeah. Um, I think other, they went to the sort of, uh, base level of, Ooh, take choices or to take everything away from them, then they'll run amok just because, yeah. We'll fuck any hole just because yeah. We'll kill anyone because it's Friday. Yeah. You know, I don't take anyone fucking operates like that. Yeah.

26:00Oti: So I'm not sure what episode was trying to get at I'm with you on that. That was bull.

26:07KT: And I think it was also, um, John was the problem. Like John was the problem in that. I don't know. He wanted to prove that he could reveal the true nature of humans and it's like, no people bullied you. Okay. And sometimes I'm fucking, fortunately that's how life works, but it doesn't mean everyone's apt to stab metaphorically or fornicating. Everybody.

26:33Oti: Mm. Yeah. And the fact that, you know, and this is something that I wanted John to sort of realize as well, how mom did a hell lot of work to get him safe.

26:45KT: what

26:45Oti: He does not appreciate that shit. Yeah. She sacrificed herself. Yeah. For him, for his fucking lazy ass.

26:52KT: For what.

26:56Oti: If there Dick box in your sacrifice. Oh, she didn't take that back. Oh, bring my amulet back, bro.

27:02KT: Yeah. and okay. Um, I haven't got it on the list, but we always end up talking about power hierarchy. So I understand Morpheus was like trapped for like a hundred years. But those sort of trinkets, whatever you wanna call them, those were all his. So even if you know, John was able to crack it and, and modify it for his own sort of purposes, wouldn't it acknowledge its owner being Morpheus. He got knocked out a bit too quickly as my point.

27:35Oti: yeah, I guess that's what magic does. It's unpredictable as shit. So I can allow a little bit of leeway there.

27:43KT: Okay. I'm not gonna get critical. I think the only thing I'm gonna get critical of is. He strapped in that shit for such a long time. And all anyone needed to do was to rub a little gap on the sand that circled that shit for like a hundred years.

27:59Oti: We got how bad trying to do that. You know, trying to smash the glass.

28:03KT: You don't even need to worry about the glass. Yeah, go fucking rub your body, go do a belly belly drop on the sand and just whoop and that's it. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. She going, she, the body just continues smashing the, the, the, the windows, if it's gonna make a difference. Yeah. Uh, I'm like, come on now. This is where you're like, thinking, just fly there, fly to fucking Mor. get it done.

28:32KT: um, well, well, let's talk about the D&D realm of the power of friendship. Um, they really did our Lucifer dirty, I think. And if we're talking about power hierarchy, I don't even understand. Well, let's, let's lean on your, your Catholic boy upbringing. Isn't Lucifer, like one of the strongest, isn't that part of what? Um, Beyonce fighting the temptations is all about, because Satan is so strong.

28:59Oti: Yeah. He's strong, you know, he, he connives and cheats and to get his way, but he's not as strong as God,

29:05KT: But how about Morpheus? Cause I don't think Morpheus is a God either.

29:08Oti: No, he's not, but it shows that there's but Morpheus is scared of loss follow, you know, especially,

29:16KT: let's talk about the D&D battle because, you know, and again, shout to Dan and Caleb, um, and for anyone that loves, uh, D&D sort of stuff, I thought it was corny. I thought it was cheesy that we've got, cuz it felt like this show how to budget, especially in the first couple of episodes or even throughout the first. So the fact that it was all done through imagination I thought that was a bit corny.

29:44Oti: it It was quite fun to be honest. I enjoyed it. Uh, I just think that Dream winning, um, call was it as strong as I, as they had made it out to me,

29:58KT: because I think Lucifer said anti-life right. It was anti-life like, it was very definitive. And then Morpheus comes along with the power of friendship and says, hope, really

30:10Oti: charming, really,

30:15KT: Uh, hope, hope, beats anti life, eh, way but even then, why don't you just end the battle at the start? Because it wasn't even like, it was a Moi Calle, like battle to look at.

30:28Oti: if I started, if, if, if Morpheus has started with hope, would there have not beat anything else to beat him with,

30:34KT: isn't that why he won the battle? Because there was nothing to Trump hope. It was like some car sort.

30:45Oti: I can feel the ghost running down my, my pants right now.

30:50KT: no, but admit it was a bit silly.

30:51Oti: it, it was silly. It was silly.

30:53KT: It was silly that they didn't do a full visualization. Well, first I thought they should have just had a fist fight personally. Um, but even then, if they didn't have a fist fight, they just half visual. Like it was like a half Chub of an imagination. And then even then. They failed to deliver by ending with hope. I'm like really, really? And I'm gonna repeat it again. The presence of dreams is what causes the eternal damnation fuck off

31:25Oti: mate, we, we need to dissect to fucking hurt you.

31:30KT: Hey, I've been hurt and the dreams do nothing.

31:34Oti: Wow.

31:36KT: We need to dissect why you feel the need to dissect me when I'm talking about a fucking TV show. run. Run it to me. Staring, bro. Don't wait for a podcast recording.

31:49Oti: yeah, I I'm with you though. I think that battle would've been something else. I think there was an opportunity to see, uh, one way they did that probably was because Dream was still in his weakened state. So anything fully fledged fighting would probably be a one and done thing.

32:06KT: You know, Lucifer would just fucking wipe the floor with him, especially being in her realm already, like it was an no-go. But that's, what's frustrating to me cuz it's like we're at the start of the show and you are telling me you beat Lucifer in your weakened state. I think that's disrespectful to Lu.

32:23Oti: Yeah. I really didn't think he'd win. I think there would've been

32:26KT: no, but you knew because he was

32:28Oti: the consequence was too big. I think if the consequence was lesser, he probably loses. But the fact that, oh, if, if I lose, I'm gonna stay in hell forever and work for this

32:39KT: year. Mm.

32:40Oti: Yeah, it was never gonna happen

32:42KT: Also before we move on to something else, what did you think when we were in hell? What did you think about the black lady that called out to Morpheus? And then we saw Morpheus turn into a black man for like two seconds. He was getting the Elvis.

32:56Oti: I thought that's because everyone used to be black back in the day. And that was his initial form.

33:03KT: I just thought that was it. But I think he came up with an explanation that you just see what you want to see in Morpheus. No, I think, I think it was Julio

33:10Oti: Oh, right.

33:11KT: Was it the Julio or Dan?

33:13Oti: so

33:14KT: let me raise our question then. So everyone that looks at Morpheus just sees a white, wants to see a white man, even the black characters. Just want to see a white man. Whoa. If that's the wow.

33:25Oti: no, no, no. If, if, if that lady looks at Morpheus and sees a black man, then that's be, and the reason being that she sees him as a black man, because she wants to see a black man.

33:35KT: Yes. And then everyone else sees him as a white

33:38Oti: in the universe wants to see a white man being Morpheus.

33:42KT: That's that's how you enslaved the mind, Oti.

33:44Oti: Yeah. That's how I don't even know what to say to that.

33:48KT: Well, I guess that's why Lucifer doesn't win because you see Lucifer everywhere. Well, we all know I'm going to hell. So let's move on to the killer convention. Again, this comes back to the paper thin morality, um, that we had throughout the show. There was so much sentiment of, oh, Like, it's kind of like the, the Adam and Eve sort of paradox, right. Where they're saying that these serial killers are terrible, but they exist because they're terrible.

34:22KT: So it's like, if we are saying that there needs to be a presence of serial killers on earth. That doesn't make them terrible. That makes them part of the plan, the same thing with Eve, with the knowledge of good and evil. She wasn't necessarily a treacherous wench by taking the knowledge of good and evil, because that was part of the plan for man to fall. Correct?

34:43Oti: Nah, she a wench

34:45KT: She can be, she can be a rightful wench though.

34:49Oti: uh, um, yeah, so with the nightmares and the Papa they solve and them going,

34:57KT: about nightmares, I'm talking about serial killers or we're saying serial killers are nightmares.

35:00Oti: Well, Corinthian was critic as a nightmare. You know, he took his job super serious,

35:04KT: what, see that doesn't make sense, cause he's a nightmare in the dreaming, but then you have real life serial killers. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't apply because they were trying to put morality of, oh, look at, look at these depraved serial killers, which they fucking. Yeah, cool. Right. But look at these depraved people, but if the plan was to have a presence of danger, so people can learn the good and the joy in life, that they're not necessarily bad by default because they're your fucking chess pieces of the same set anyway.

35:32Oti: Yeah, I see that. Um, but then I think we're going into this sort of psychological. Um, realm in, in, in trying to discuss, do we have free will? We, are we there for a reason? Are we, are we just chess pieces? You know, I

35:48KT: so you're saying I'm looking for death that isn't there. Hell

35:53Oti: not necessarily. Okay. So what Corinthian is just, is he fucking eats people's eyes or takes people's eyes in the dreaming, right.

36:02KT: Uhhuh, because he is a nightmare, but he's breaking through the moral and coming to reality and killing people in real but what's the excuse for all of the serial killers that existed before he broke loose. That's what I'm saying. People continue to die. So why, so it doesn't even like the insurance policy for Morpheus doesn't stretch across all of policies. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't make

36:24Oti: but it's just the sheer scale, isn't it?

36:26KT: But you're saying all of these people are suffering for a purpose or they're suffering because the dreaming doesn't exist, but there was suffering while dreaming existed. You see what I'm saying? There were people that were doing disgusting depraved things as serial killers before Corinthian even broke loose. So the mythology already has a flawed call. That's what I'm.

36:48Oti: Eh, but Corinthian is spurring them on, you know, he, he is fucking a cult legend already.

36:54KT: do you, do you acknowledge that these people existed before Corinthian

36:58Oti: Yeah, of course. They've always been fucking killers out there. But Corinthian went out there.

37:02KT: He fucking created a cult following just based off his efficiency. The sheer, the sheer amount of time he did it. He, he spent such a long time killing people, thought he had to be some copycat or some, some, you know, apprentice. you're just ignoring what I'm saying. You agreed with it. And now you're ignoring what I'm saying, because it's true.

37:22KT: The mythology and the mythos of this show, doesn't explain everything, which again, is part of the problem with religion. Like it's trying to answer things that can't be answered because that's fucking life. Right. And what I also didn't like was Morpheus kept saying he was, these are the rules, rules are rules. Right. But he didn't need to take Lyta's husband.

37:44Oti: Uh, he had already died in real life though. So what's the point of

37:48KT: who who cares? Let them live. Let them be happy. I thought dream dreaming was supposed to make people feel happy and fulfilled.

37:55Oti: It would have

37:56KT: Are we, are we also ignoring, how are we also ignoring how Unity was like a literal sleeping beauty and someone slid it into her while she was unconscious? Are we ignoring that as well?

38:06Oti: Yeah. And they glossed over that shit as if it was alright. I heard you and I was sleeping. It's alright.

38:13KT: and even if I leave your man Morpheus alone for a second, like if we talk about Death, shout outs to Kirby, I think we know her the most from Why Women Kill. And I guess while we hear shout outs to your one and only wifey Lulu, um, I didn't, again, you presented it in this show.

38:29KT: Therefore I am going to discuss and say why it didn't work. We have a, we have a whole episode dedicated around. right. Being, being that sort of, um, comforting guiding hand that takes people from the mortal flesh, into the afterlife, whatever that looks like. Right.

38:47Oti: flex mm-hmm

38:48KT: And then you have a moment where she takes a baby away and we're not gonna go into too much detail, but feel free to skip ahead. A couple of minutes, friends That's disgusting. I didn't like that. And I know you can feel like the gravity in the room has fallen, but that's part of the problem trying to put a whole mythos around the way unspeakable things happen in humanity makes it hard to understand why a baby would be taken so early from. And I didn't like that. That's what I'm saying. It didn't work.

39:20Oti: I think that's just showing us that happens now.

39:22KT: So, you know, they're that's what I'm saying. So what's, what's the point of the presence of Death. What's the point of the presence of dreaming where shitty undeniable, unspeakable things are gonna happen anyway,

39:34Oti: again, I'll just say scale, you know, the reason why the dreaming is important and why people can't off bloody die is the scale.

39:42KT: People still die in this sleep. People still don't wake up from their sleep, you know? Um, but the scale again is what we are talking What does that mean?

39:50Oti: sheer amount of people who would not wake up the sheer amount of people who would die, the sheer amount of people who would either be terrorized or won't be able to fall asleep ever again,

40:00KT: Okay. Well, without, without getting too real, but what's the difference between what's happening in real life. Anyway, there's no difference. You see what I'm saying? So why have these guardians of the human experience where people are fucking suffering anyway? That's what I don't understand. That's the same thing. Why? Like it comes back to the, the intensity and the weight of the consequences. It doesn't make sense to me because people are suffering anyway and they're picking and choosing when to play. God,

40:27Oti: I don't know, man. I don't know what I can tell you. to make you understand this or to make you see at least how I'm looking at it.

40:34KT: You know, it's, it's not because oh, people will never suffer because that's the way the world is. They're not trying to say, oh, we are going to mitigate anything bad from happening ever, because that's not why, why they're there, but that's not a one I'm saying they're also not taking accountability for the shitty things that happen.

40:50KT: So it's like only the things that we wanna talk about are the things that are in our control. But anyway, let's move on. Um, let's move on. Let's go to something a bit lighter. Let's talk about Hob Gadling. So this was Morpheus's way of trying to make a friend.

41:06Oti: It was sort of his experiment to see how long he'd go, you know, wishing that he'd die. And he kept on going. He kept on finding a reason to live.

41:15KT: I asked for levity and that was your answer.

41:18Oti: because it's the truth. Isn't

41:19KT: begging for the sweet reprieve that kiss of.

41:23Oti: Yeah. Cause how long is too long? How, how long is, if you have immortality then is a hundred years too long.

41:29KT: I dunno. You've stood to prove that you can be stubborn as hell in this recording. So I'll see you in another hundred years. My love. Um, there, there are many characters we can talk about, but I wanna talk about one of my favorites, Matthew, the Raven, I really enjoyed Matthew. Um, I didn't realize it was Patton Oswalt, but it, it definitely made sense. Um, he reminded me friends and lovers go and check out our first official Reference Degustation where we covered Miyazaki masterpieces.

42:03KT: Uh, he reminded me of Calcifer. But I'm even talking about the English dub of Howl's Moving Castle. Wow. Billy Crystal, I believe. Um, like he provided a sense of levity. And if you pardon the pun, a bit of a spark, you know, something to ignite you through the dreary sort of, um, offerings that Morpheus would bring, like I thought Matthew was a lot of fun.

42:26Oti: fun Yeah.

42:27KT: He was fun. I think, I, I think it's what Dream needed at the time as well. Just someone to shoot it straight with him. The audience needed him as well. I think.

42:36Oti: Yes. I think if he just had BFI there, uh, brooding the whole time without any sort of, you know,

42:44KT: someone to cut through the tension. Yeah. I think Matthew did that well, is he's a very good addition to this. Absolutely agree. Um, something we didn't talk about was the tonal shift. It was like halfway through the season. So we knew where we were getting to in retrieving the three items that Morpheus had. And then the last half for me, kind of waned off in, in regards to my particular sort of interest with the vortex with Rose.

43:11KT: What did you think even before we talk about Rose, what did you think about the tonal change in season?

43:16Oti: I didn't mind it because then we get to see a lot more of the world.

43:21Oti: And I think that's what, at least for the first season you get to do this sort of things. Okay. You know, it's not like when you're watching Heroes, it wasn't just about save the cheerleader, save the world 24 7. You know, we, we, we, we moved to silo. Bear came back to hero, you know, so I appreciated the fact that we sort of shifted our F we shifted our attention. To Rose Walker and seeing what this entity can do, you know, and what that means in the world.

43:48KT: So what did you, so we've talked like we've talked a lot about the lore, um, and what, how it's been presented in the TV show? I don't understand because for me, a vortex is an inevitability, right? Every so phenomena, there's always going to be a vortex, right? So the presence of it makes sense. And in some ways you could even say it's natural. So then how then is it a bad thing that needs to be destroyed if its very purpose is to exist?

44:18Oti: I think it's it's just because something is inevitable to happen. You still have to find a way to deal with it. Like, oh, asteroids are fucking inevitable, but what if one comes trying to come through down to earth?

44:30KT: Are we not going to try and shoot the shit out of it and be like, oh yeah, might always think kumbaya. no, I'm just gonna breathlessly yell at everyone and Don't Look Up

44:40Oti: I did that, especially for you.

44:43KT: you really teed that up for me. Thank you.

44:45Oti: Uh, I didn't find it. I didn't find it as if it was flawed that, you know, we need to

44:50KT: not that it's flawed, but they were saying that a vortex is going to happen and it makes sense that there's a vortex, but then they had to get rid of it. And I was like, well then why is the vortex there? Then? That's why I didn't understand.

45:02Oti: they said the vortex happened because Dream spent so long away and it happened when it was meant to be with. By Unity was fucking unconscious for all that time. And that's why it went to Rose. So there's a cause and effect, and they were trying to fi figure out, oh, what was the cause?

45:20KT: And why did it Uhhuh

45:22Oti: and they still have to deal with it just because it it's going to destroy everything. You know, it has to be controlled. It has to, to go. And I didn't find, I didn't have a problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it.

45:32KT: Okay. You got a problem with something though? I do. um, Lucienne, I kind of want Lucienne to have some, um, S like, I really feel like Lucienne could be the revolution that like the dreaming needs.

45:48Oti: Oh, she had a hundred odd years to be the revolution.

45:52KT: no, I think she was a loyal to IC wasn't

45:55Oti: she? Yeah, she was loyal. She was loyal. I think it was crap. How, uh, Morpheus treated her once he got back, you know, I think he had to understand at least to appreciate that things are never the same once she left, especially for such a long time, you know?

46:09KT: And I think that's where you didn't see particularly the sort of growth you wanted or a bigger growth that you wanted. That's why we got to see Morpheus sort of being like, Hey, that was my bad. I treated you as if no time had passed at least, you know, I'll try and do better. I wish you would critique these characters to the level that you critiqued me, your motherfucker. Um, speed round thoughts on Constantine. So this is a like gender swapping for the Constantine that, you know, thoughts, feelings.

46:43Oti: Yeah. I thought they were gonna do the love thing there. They're probably are gonna do it in season two. So

46:49KT: what if that's part of the dreaming destiny, bro?

46:52Oti: maybe it is, you need to have a, a dreaming conjuring demon slay.

46:58KT: wow.

47:00Oti: Either way. I really didn't care for that nonsense just because of the love angle. Then again, if Morpheus has to be bloody or try to understand humans, Might as well get banged in the

47:11KT: much Okay. I really don't think there's anything else to say. I wanna,

47:17Oti: there's nothing bigger than the human experience other than fucking sex and killing each other.

47:21KT: So might as well. Oh, so you are acknowledging that there is lack of dimension in the lore and the consequences of this show. I got my soundbite 60 minute friends and lovers. the only thing I would say is I wanna learn more about Desire.

47:38Oti: Sheer looks interest.

47:40KT: She he, and they uh, according to the comics again, friends and lovers, this is the only research that I did, Desire's described as medium height and smelling faintly of summer peaches. I don't know if the peaches are from Georgia. Um, they are a strikingly, beautiful androgynous figure of gender fluidity. They can be male, female, both, or neither as a situation warrant.

48:05Oti: Good.

48:06KT: Good. So we'll see you next pride. Sandman lovers. oh, thank you. Friends and lovers who knew? I didn't realize this would be a recording that you felt the need to fight me on, or maybe you'll just jealous because Adam Driver visits me monthly.

48:23Oti: Yeah, I need to need, need to think about that a bit. Maybe I'll join him.

48:27KT: Oti, the cuckold

48:31Oti: Cox night.

48:36KT: Oh, wow.

48:38Oti: We've all been waiting for.

48:39KT: Wow. And who said dreams? Didn't come true. Friends and lovers. Oh, wow. Um, I need to go sit somewhere else and calm down. We're gonna finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

48:54Oti: uh, just because I sort of liked American Gods up until Orlando Jones was kicked off. So watch season one and two, and then of American Gods. And then you can toss it in the bin. You

49:05KT: need to give a complete reference. It, it it's either all of it. You need to give all of reference

49:10Oti: Season one and two of American Gods.

49:11KT: If we're talking about nailing the angels and demons of it all, I will reference happiness and today I will choose joy with The Two Popes.

49:23Oti: Jesus. nothing better than two old, two old white men telling you about life. A might as well.

49:30KT: Take it from Morpheus Brav. I'd love it. I'd rather be in Morpheus dreaming. That in those fucking Catholic Catholic won world Why are you? Incepting my reference, your motherfucker. If you want Oti to incept your dreams on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod.

49:49Oti: Write us an email, hello@fyrpodcast.com.

49:51KT: We're also on hashtag justice for vortexes podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review, and we'll see you guys next week,

50:00Oti: See ya.