The Platform – Sugar, We’re Goreng Down

Full transcript of The Platform – Sugar, We’re Goreng Down.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and we're starting off with your phrase or mine. And residentially, permanently, I am your loyal trusted sage. And very appropriately, my ancient proverb is based on greed.

0:20Oti: Okay. Interesting.

0:22KT: Very interesting. And it's an Arabic proverb. I think it's the first time we've ever used an Arabic proverb before.

0:22Oti: Yeah, close to Swahili.

0:22KT: Yep. Yep. Alright. It's from the interweb. So as accurate as we can all muster. So the phrase is or the proverb, greed lessens what is gathered.

0:44Oti: Pretty much means that for greedy people and you have resources, everyone will scramble for it and you'll be left with nada.

0:50KT: No. To get what you want from greed, you're losing your sense of humanity because you are stepping on motherfuckers to get where you wanna go. So you've lost a part of yourself for all of that greed. Lessons, resources. Resources on how to do is being proud of yourself. I'm right here. How dare you? This is not the Sagey's Splooshies edition. You're overthinking that, mate. You will respect me as your third hokage, you dirty pig. You

1:20Oti: you know you're the third hokage, so no fighting that. I tricked you because I said third already.

1:28KT: Oh, look at you. Accepting yourself. That's entrapment, motherfuckers. As you will be for the rest of time. Thank you so much. What the fuck? Let's get on with the show, guys. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You've got your host, KT.

1:28Oti: And Oti.

1:28KT: And throw some salt on those snails and decide whether you want to discard or keep your sense of kindness.

2:15Oti: Oh,

2:16KT: discard, discard. Hot diggity dawg because this week we are diving into El Hoyo. And for those non Spanish speaking listeners,

2:24Oti: The Platform. The Platform indeed.

2:27KT: And I I really feel like this is this episode essentially is going to be a platform for general sort of discussion.

2:34Oti: Because it sets a platform to discuss such things. Damn, dog. You didn't you didn't know you'd get such value straight off the bat, didn't you? Are we like the bargain bin of podcasts or what?

2:48KT: Some days we're wondering why we can't see Jackie Chan's diarrhea, and some days we're having some real conversations about social class. You choose what you wanna listen to friends and lovers. Let's get into stats, which is usually what we get into. I couldn't really find anything in regards to budget. Yeah. I guess for this sort of Netflix keeps that tight. Well, even before Netflix, this film premiered at the twenty nineteen Toronto International Film Festival. Oh. Where it won the People's Choice Award for Midnight Madness and what an apt

3:20KT: category to win. What an apt category to win? And it was actually at the TIFF, which is what all of the cinephiles give me time to pull both of my glasses up. It was actually at the TIFF that the film secured a worldwide streaming deal with Netflix. So it's not oh, of course, it's not a Netflix original. Why do they even think that? Probably because they put Netflix original in front of your mother's ass. Like, it's always there. Like, you need to settle down my peeps. By now I should know better. Yeah. Never.

3:49KT: But welcome, welcome, welcome. This is going to be very interesting episode, I would say. Let's just quickly go through the cast. You know, I I like to pretend I'm Spanish, but it's quite clear that I'm not. Directing, we have Galder Gaztelu-Urrutia. Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to pass, sir. We also have written by David Desola and also Pedro Rivero. Mhmm. I'll put the accent wherever I can. Also starring Iván Massagué, Zorion Eguileor, and a whole slew of

4:25KT: did you see that? I just dodged it. Did you hear me? This was actually based off a play. They added some more physical elements and characteristics, some more textured layers or platforms, if you will, just to make it more suitable for film. But there you go. Are we done? We done. Can go home now? Oti and I have opened a very delicious, very delectable bottle of red wine, which I feel is very fitting for this episode.

4:53Oti: Yeah. Because if you're in the what was it? What was the 1st Floor, 40th Floor? You barely get any wine, if any.

5:00KT: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And unfortunately, there are places where you can start there much worse. Oh, for sure. Yeah. If we're talking about a hierarchy, our dog definitely gets the cream of the crop and we get the scraps in the For Your Reference household. But, you know, you get in where you can get in. Oh, for sure. So let's talk about first impressions. We haven't really come across the works of the director or the writers

5:24KT: in general. Iván was actually in Pan's Labyrinth, Oti. So I'm not sure if you wanna include that, but I guess just give your general sort of first impressions about this movie.

5:34Oti: No. I didn't know he was in Pan's Labyrinth because I can't remember him. Maybe he was Pan who only showed up for, like, two seconds. We watched the trailer of this, I think, last week, and it just it just caught me because I felt like it was completely going to be interesting and I'm going to be immersed in this sort of sociopolitical statement that they're trying to make. And I was enthralled.

5:57Oti: I was enthralled, I was all in for it. And watching it, it didn't disappoint me. I had qualms though towards the end where I felt very strong. It started off very strong. Yeah. It started off very strong, but the qualm was that I didn't agree with the sort of ending and I thought they wanted to be more more nuanced that you that it should have been.

6:14KT: Yeah. But And spoiler spoiler spoiler. We're obviously gonna talk about spoilers in this episode. Yeah. But I saw how how turned your face was when the credits rolled because I was like, was that it? And then it ended and you look so sour. Yes. And if you've if you've watched this, surely you understand. Sometimes people want to be too clever for their own good and it backfires. And I feel like it backfired here. Yeah. I love wholly immersive, you know, deeply

6:45KT: personal and, you know, sometimes it's just a few sort of characters. I really enjoy these sort of movies. I actually prefer these movies compared to YoHo, American flags, Michael Bayisms, all of the action, all of the explosives. I actually prefer stories that, you know, are more simple in nature, but they're multilayered in their messaging. So I was really enjoying

7:08KT: this film and there was so much I wanted to be able to discuss and bring examples from the film and, you know, how you can tie it into real life that I felt was executed quite well. Even the interactions that we have between the characters I thought was quite interesting too but it really fell flat. If you'll pardon the platform pun. Like it really fell flat and

7:31KT: obviously we'll get to like the end of the film. But I wanna give an example of a film that we watched that is very is very similar in the sense of, you know, social commentary and it's kind of within one sort of set. Yep. The the film that we watched recently with Gemma Chan and Colin Salmon called Exam.

7:52KT: We we kind of got lost throughout the movie, but I think overall it kind of worked more. If if we talk about, like, just watching it as a whole movie I felt like Exam kind of executed a bit better than this film only because

8:06KT: they this this film started off like so strong even the even the middle like even the extra interactions that Goreng has with the other characters, it reinforces his sense of self. So we were really bolstering up for a wholly satisfying end and we didn't get that. Oh, yeah. We didn't. But you won't know that until you get to the end. Right?

8:29Oti: No. You wouldn't. You you you really wouldn't. And I feel like the sort of catharsis I was expecting to feel at the end of this movie was sort of short lived Mhmm. Where I I I felt like the whole sort of narrative trying to be or at least what I could get out of the movie wasn't really delivered.

8:45Oti: And that all of it was left up to me to derive, which isn't a problem. It isn't a problem, but when it's done like this, especially when they've started with such a strong buildup, it becomes sort of a of a premature ejaculation sort of thing. Yeah. And that that's a sad time for all.

9:02KT: That's a Jerry from Rick and Morty sort of scenario. I'm not making any claims, but, you know, he seems like he's in the right ballpark. But let let's talk about the let's talk about the movie just generally. How do you feel about Goreng as a character? Because he kind of he kind of walks us through the social commentary in his interactions and even in his own sort of sense of self. So how did you feel about him as a character?

9:27Oti: I think he symbolized pretty much what anybody would do in that situation. Going there, not really fully expecting what he got Mhmm. And quickly realizing that he'll need to adapt and do things that he never envisioned in his life.

9:27KT: Well, quickly is a relative sort of term because he wasn't latching on as quickly as I wanted him to.

9:27Oti: He was there for a week and you're already starting to bad mouth him as if he'd been there for months on end. Yeah.

9:56KT: Because Yeah. You're like you're you're literally in a prison. Right? And you see a platform and you see food there.

10:03Oti: Nothing? But the faster you get there and then you see things that have been stepped on, half eaten, there's probably piss and and wretch on it. Like, I would not even

10:03KT: Wretch? Yeah. Get back into the Salem times, sir.

10:03Oti: You would not even touch that.

10:20KT: No. But if I am in some sort of confinement and you see the world that we're in, even, you know, we had that old man character, Trimagasi. You know, even he was like he was giving him a heads up. Right? He was telling him all of this sort of stuff, and he didn't really take the information in, and that bothered me. And, anyway, that's just the KT qualm. I have a problem with, like, the protagonist taking too long to accept the world

10:47KT: and the role that they're going to play. So that's that's just something I have with everything, not necessarily you know, specifically to this movie, but, know, even just taking a step back from what you said, the administration is what they called it. Right? That's they referred to as whatever the powers were Yep. That were controlling the vertical self management center. I

11:09KT: feel like and again, it might just be me and the way I consume stuff. It wasn't strong enough because he volunteered to go there, yet he knew nothing of it. So I thought that was a bit of weak writing.

11:21Oti: Not really. If you're going to put yourself in

11:21KT: But what was it? What was he volunteering to do?

11:21Oti: Not really. No. Maybe he thought it was just some sort of social experiment. And the fact that it would only take six months to get an advanced diploma for your time being in in in some sort of cell, who wouldn't take that? I'd take that over studying for a year or two to get that bloody diploma in the first place.

11:45KT: Okay, friends and lovers. Oti also belongs to, like, a 100 different religions because he continues to collect pamphlets that people give out on the street. So that explains a lot about what you're saying. But I would not fucking sign up for anything I didn't know what the details were.

11:45Oti: Well, you wouldn't really think it would be something illegal or as far fetched as what we saw.

11:45KT: Well, like,

12:07KT: well, in any case, it distracted me. It distracted me because I'm like, it's not strong enough. Like, I get that we're in here and we're all barbaric and we're all going to tear people apart literally. But how did we even get there is my point and then you also have Imoguiri

12:22KT: the lady with the dog and she had some sort of idea but she also volunteered herself as well unless it kind of is like a prison because so you have Goreng who and he's kind of like an academic right but then you also have Trimagasi the old man and he either chose to go to a mental hospital or he went there the hole When they say the hole, I guess I think about Murrican stuff where they talk Yeah. Right? So that's that's more what I thought. Like, remember in Prison Break? Yeah.

12:50KT: That's more what I thought they were talking about. So unless it's just this is where we decide to put people when we don't wanna deal with them. Yeah. It it feels really illegal. But then it

12:50Oti: But did it distract you?

12:50KT: I think maybe it just distracted me. It just bothered me.

12:50Oti: It it didn't distract me at all.

12:50KT: Well, it just it just bothered me a bit because he seemed so clueless as to what was going on.

13:13Oti: Well, to be fair, Imoguiri didn't even know what she was she had worked there for fifty years or whatever many years that was. Yeah. But if she knew exactly what was going on, would she volunteer? No. But she she had trust she had trust in administration. Mhmm. So for for an employee Yeah. To have trust in that administration that they won't even have anyone under 16 on there, she clearly didn't know them as well as she could. So how do you expect our protagonist to know?

13:42KT: Well, the interesting thing and let let's bring some real shit into it. I think Imoguiri is a good example of companies literally only caring for employees as much as they can milk it out of them. So why does she need to know? Once we're done with you, once you've, you know, slaved for years and hours of your time and your efforts, we're just gonna throw you into the vertical center.

14:08Oti: Well, she did volunteer to go there because she had cancer and it wasn't gonna go. So

14:11KT: But you know what I'm saying. Like, you know, there's a lot of messaging to be made about society and how, you know, higher powers, whether it's the or it's people on the higher levels, treat, mistreat, and continue to do so on an ever flowing sort of basis. Oh, agreed. Agreed. So I thought that was quite interesting. After they're on level 48, they go all the way down to one seven one, I'm pretty sure. And the difference, You were crying over eating food on 48,

14:46KT: and we cut to Goreng being tied up. You had a problem with that. Yes.

14:52Oti: Just because my problem was not really a problem. It was just a wonder where maybe the gas has a significantly higher effect on him. Because for that old man, maybe he's been exposed to that gas so the effect doesn't last as long.

14:52KT: Wow. Grab the tinfoil hats, friends. Love it.

14:52Oti: No, mate. Because it happened again with Imoguiri where Mhmm. She managed to wake up and kill herself. Yeah. Hang herself while he was still passed out. Yeah. I guess And this was idea I think this was one of her first gas experiences,

15:26Oti: and she still woke up before the other one. So that goes pretty much towards my theory of

15:26KT: Unless the employees were getting gassed suddenly the whole time.

15:26Oti: Maybe maybe so. Maybe so. I've got my tinfoil hat on as well, apparently.

15:39KT: But it was interesting. And, you know, we have we have started to watch Dexter myself for the first time, Oti for the second time. And, yes, there are moments where I feel like in scary cases, identify with Dexter. However, I'm not a fucking psycho. But, however, when I'm watching a film and I get the premise of it, I am all in. So when the old man tied up Goreng, I was like, this makes sense. He's coming off really cold and he's saying, you know, you're not gonna turn on me now, but you will eventually.

16:11KT: That made complete sense to me.

16:14Oti: I don't think he would have though. But he had been through yeah. Come on. He wouldn't have been Did you not see the disparity? It takes a personality. It takes a personality to completely go from.

16:38KT: And he had Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler.

16:40Oti: Spoiler. I won't explain the meaning of it. I'll just sort of say what that scene entailed. And it it pretty much was them being stranded in ocean and having to survive and people disappearing. Right? Yeah. He managed to stay strong. Not only him, but another part you know, like, it's it's all about the character and the resilience you have to to to be better and to see to have the fortitude.

17:06KT: Oh, the fortitude. Don't you reckon? Well, I see your Life of Pi, and I raise you Alive. About the Uruguay oh, Uruguay. The Uruguay rugby team. And my point is I don't think it's fair to denote to someone's sense of self on what they would do under the most harshest of conditions. Did you learn nothing from this film?

17:36Oti: Well, mate, I learned a lot. They were not completely stranded. They had water. A man can survive on water for for a long time. It was clean supply. They could drink water. You didn't have to necessarily start gorging people after two weeks of not eating meat.

17:48KT: But what you're not understanding is the old man had already lived the whole year of it. He just made assumptions. But even when the lady came onto the scene and Goreng was trying to school her, there was still that barrier that they had between each other. So imagine a whole year of doing it. Goreng had only been doing it for one or two months at that time. Yeah. But even he had felt that burden of survival. And he held out for a long time.

18:16KT: Right? So what I'm what what I'm saying is I don't think it's fair. It's, you know, if we're talking about applying this onto social commentary, it's like saying people that had less opportunities than you should have just worked harder. Do you see what I'm saying? So when you're on a 171 and no food is coming there at all, Lindelof is off on a holiday. He's not helping you off the island, sir. That's a Lost reference, friends and lovers.

18:45KT: So and it's different because even on an island, you can still try and find shit. Right? But you are in a confined sort of space. There's no magic sort of power that's going to save you. You need to survive yourself.

18:58Oti: Yeah. Which is weird. Like, you'd think they'd start eating on their nails before they start gorging at each other's body parts. Well, I guess I guess there's just a difference of opinion.

19:08KT: And, you know, Oti is that yummy yummy yummy. It'll take me like two minutes before I start nibbling on him. But that's a story for another day. But I'm just saying, don't think it's fair. Like, I don't think yeah. Maybe people could have held out longer, but what hope, what sort of beacon did they have that someone was going to come and save them? So I don't think that's fair.

19:28Oti: No. It's not. And it's just a difference of opinion. I fully understand that. I fully understand I'm not going to eat your children, but I'm just saying.

19:36KT: I'm just saying if we're in this world where it's ruthless and it's cutthroat and, you know, people are just out there for themselves, then, yeah, they kinda need a forage for themselves.

19:45Oti: Yeah. Cool. Fair enough. Fair enough. I just I just wanted the old man to give the guy a chance. He's of course, he's being tainted by his by his experience and all.

19:45KT: No. But he's an old man. He could be overpowered very easily. He had a knife as a backup.

19:59Oti: Yeah. But if you can barely breathe, like, how does

20:03Oti: like, how is that going to help at all? He was just so ready to assume this role without giving an opportunity. It's like Queen & Slim, it's like when Queen just went full a 100, you know, just broke bad in an instant. Like, far out, man. Where's the buildup? Yes. He's been there for longer, but you have to give people a chance, especially when you see that they're not exact it's not their nature.

20:24KT: I thought you're going to say, like, you would have to watch Queen & Slim. You don't think the platform. You can pass.

20:31Oti: But

20:33KT: it's just interesting. It's interesting because I think a lot of the time, you know, the the viewer can take on that role through the eyes of Goreng. Right? So he he has a slow descent into madness, if you will. For me, it could have happened it could have happened a lot sooner. For you, it was just right. Yeah? So I guess it's more just a matter of opinion, not necessarily fact because it is a movie TV podcast, guys. Settle down. It's not that serious. Go and punch your sibling.

21:05KT: But it's very interesting. And I wanna talk a little bit about the hierarchy because I think there's quite a lot of discussion

21:14KT: to be had there. So when we first start, we have Goreng and Trimagasi is walking him through, don't even bother talking to the people above you, and we don't even talk to the people below. Yeah. Because they're below you. So I just I wanna talk a bit about the layers of hierarchy that we have and how people understand and they stay within that. So it's pretty much like the caste system in a vertical self management center.

21:37Oti: Yeah. Can see that. It's really sad. And especially when Imoguiri came and said that there was enough food to feed everyone on the levels if everyone took a portion. You know? And she started doing things on a plate and going, and she was so eager and I'd say naive.

21:53Oti: Naive is definitely the word, especially because she was part of the company. Exactly. Yeah. Trying to make everyone to put it their portion on the plate, and it'll go down where the people just take what they need. But that's not how it is, especially when you've spent the last month on a lower level where you didn't get anything. And then all of a sudden, you have all this food in abundance.

22:12KT: I think a big sort of theme to this film is why would I? Because there was nothing stopping them from helping. Yeah. You know, there were particular rules that, you know, that the administration put in place in regards to you can't take food once it's off the platform and that sort of thing. But there were no rules in regards to an egalitarian sort of approach. Right? So, yeah, she she definitely tried,

22:38KT: but you can't force people. But then you also had Goreng threatening them to live in harmony by shitting on their food or threatening to shit on their food. Right? And it's interesting because they they talk about, you know, the old man talks about when Goreng brings the first time how no one's going to listen to a communist, like trying to share all of the resources.

22:58KT: And it's an interesting but in regards to the vertical self management center, the difference between that and the caste system is you're not like that that's not where you stay. You can actually move up and down at any time. So at least in that case, you know, you can be up one day, just one day, and then the rest of your life, you're down. You know what I mean? But, like, you get some sort of glory. But the interesting thing was,

23:23KT: I'm not sure if it was one seven one. I think it might have been further down. But Goreng was really, really struggling, and then he went up to six. Do you remember? Yeah. The interesting thing was he was not like it seemed like he was upset and he he maybe perhaps felt bad that he had so much abundance. Mhmm. That was an interesting sort of theme.

23:42Oti: It was interesting. And and you could see when the food came, when the platform lowered, he didn't even partake in much. He saw his favorite food which was the snails. Oh, have you tried snails before?

23:56KT: I have.

23:56Oti: Really?

23:56KT: At a restaurant in Sydney, and I'm not sure if it's still around, but it was called The Little Snail.

24:02Oti: It was called it was closed down due to the health hazard of serving snails. Yeah. Probably.

24:09KT: But yeah. I I don't remember if I liked it or not because it kinda felt like I was on Fear Factor. Like, I knew it was snails. So I kinda just, like, shoved it down my throat and prayed it finished. Mhmm. Just like with Oti.

24:17Oti: I I had some when I was younger, and they used to, like, fry it in this red sauce. And let's just say I would never have snails again in Like, the the tiny ones. Right? Yeah.

24:31KT: Because in in Tonga, I don't know if my mom was lying, but mom said that she would eat the sea slugs, like the fat ones. Yeah.

24:38Oti: We used to put salt on those so we could see it dissolve.

24:41KT: Yikes. I don't know. Maybe maybe I need to refine my palate a bit more or maybe it's just not my thang. It was very rubbery. Like, you could sell the mucusy too. They doused it in butter, but you could still

24:49Oti: Not not not not amount of butter would make eating a slug any any palatable.

24:57KT: Butter heals all,

24:59Oti: You my know my feelings with butter and margarine.

25:04KT: Yes. Yes. And that will be a Reference After Dark for another time. But it was very interesting because I don't think we saw any sort of remorse from any other characters except for Goreng when he had that abundance. Right? Like, don't think anyone really felt bad aside from him, at least from the point of view of the film. Yeah. And and we also had Baharat's

25:25Oti: only goal was sort of to go up and and leave because he felt like he'd he was he was on top. He was on fire. Was trying. He was on fire. Yeah. He was trying. Oh, and that scene that scene when he they asked the people above them. He asked the person above them to carry him or, like, to pull him up, and then he started going up and then the woman just shat on his face. You know where he failed in that?

25:49KT: He relied on the kindness of others. Yeah. And it seems like Especially in a place like this. Exactly. In this sort of system, you can't rely on the kindness of others. The only way you can change the system is by being selfless yourself you can't really do things for your own sort of gain I like the concept of them being able to go to different levels but then it kind of brings an extra layer of sadism

26:17KT: Because I I think it's also to further break people because they know what they can have, and they just completely because you're never really teetering between the middle tiers.

26:27Oti: And like Trimagasi said, like, people above would commit suicide because they can't handle not knowing like, not fighting or not living for this crap. Just having everything in abundance is boring, and people can't handle that. And you had people in the upper levels just jumping off. Yeah. So it's it's a really it really talks on the mental state of humans in general

26:49Oti: and the fragility Yeah. Of the And you need some sort of balance, right? Because then you become numb to it. Yeah. You become numb to it. Everything you don't need to fight or worry about anything and the food comes easy then you spend all the time just thinking about what exactly. And people a lot of people don't do well being left with just their thoughts. Oh, I As you've seen in Alone.

27:10KT: I would I would love to I would love to meet someone that is alone within their own thoughts and they're completely fine. Like, I would love to watch a documentary or something on that. But something that I thought was quite interesting as well in regards to this movie was, you know, you can be on one seven one and then you could shoot up to six. And not necessarily in Goreng's case, but you could see it through other characters how quickly people forgot what it was to struggle. Yeah.

27:38KT: They feel like it's they feel like it's their time now. No. But how interesting is that? Because in life, in a capital sort of, you know, world that we exist in, you know, you can be great. You can be flying high one day, and then you can lose everything. Right?

27:53Oti: Yeah. And I could also sort of draw it I could I could also draw a parallel to the politicians,

27:59Oti: in Kenya and Africa in general, where you get these struggling people who really who really talk the good game Yeah. And you could see that they actually fucking care. Mhmm. But they've been through so bloody much, and they've been through so much struggle that once they get elected and they get up there, they're like, no, mate. I'm not am. It's all for me. It's all for me now. It's all for me. I've done my struggling bit. Now it's my time. It's my time and my family. And that's sort of mentality that's you know, it's human nature. Yeah. Like, if you can't save everyone, you just save the one around you. Yeah. You save yourself and your family and the people you care

27:59KT: And that's not necessarily a bad thing as well. You know, when whenever you have, like, world reliefs and stuff, you know, people get angry why celebrities aren't doing more, but it's like you can do something as well.

27:59Oti: Well, we don't have the resources to do more. Like, I guess I get this sort of mentality where I think

28:45Oti: a lot of billionaires in the world could do more, but they don't.

28:45KT: But if they don't, that's none of your business. It's none of Yeah. Your They should do more, but it doesn't mean you can do nothing. Why why are we looking at the higher platforms to do something?

28:45Oti: And I guess that's that's the sort of because you don't want to come off as as a communist because everyone would would pretty much just not listen to you. But then there's a fine line. There's a fine line to where you could say you're actually trying to help people where it will benefit not only yourself but other people as well. So when you're up there when you're up there and you know what you've been through and you know how hard it is because it only lasts a month. It's not like you're staying up on level six or level one forever.

28:45KT: Yeah. But don't say it's just a month. It's it's it's it's a continual cycle that you have to go through, and that would fucking break anyone psychologically.

29:31Oti: It's not like they're bears. It's not like they're camels that can store food in their humps or something. You eat it, and then at the end of the month, you're still back to the lower levels and you're hungry again. You're like, oh, I wish we would have done something better or at least to try and change the system. That's where I was coming from.

29:31KT: I guess so. But, you know, life is fucking hard, man. Like, you can't really expect other people to do shit. You kinda just need to go in and get it done yourself.

29:54Oti: Fair enough.

29:55KT: Oti Doolittle.

29:56Oti: And I guess that's where we get to see Goreng and Baharat sort of forming a good partnership in their belief knowing that they'll do their best once for them to go up, they'll need to go all the way down. Mhmm. Into the Crevasse, which is a 30 Rock episode.

30:12KT: Enjoy 30 Rock. You're most welcome. Or even James Franco in his 127 Hours. Yeah. That was brutal. You had to crawl down. Yeah. That was brutal. Have you oh, you've watched it today? Of course I have with the sunflower shirt or whatever the fuck he was wearing. Yeah. I guess that's an interesting thing because, you know, you can point your fingers like someone should be doing something. But if you're not gonna do anything, shut the fuck up. Really? Yeah. No. You.

30:38Oti: And I I beat myself up because I'm like this because I I got disillusioned, and it's my fault, and I could definitely do a lot more. But, you know, it's it's just a conditioning of how everything is, and it just butters you every single time. And I guess it takes stronger people to do that.

30:47KT: It was an interesting concept. And again, this is this is definitely just me. But I wanted to know how it got determined where people would go. It didn't seem like a Nosedive Black Mirror where, you know, according to your deeds, that's where you would land. Nah. It seemed completely random. I think it was just to inflict the most serious sort of pain and suffering. Yeah. Really.

31:15KT: I agree with that. But it was interesting. It it really caught my attention all the way throughout. Sometimes when we're watching stuff, obviously when we're at home, we like to check how much longer there is.

31:27Oti: We didn't really do that with this movie which is a good thing. Yeah. It's a good thing. One of the things that got me as well is the administrations are when they're performing like they're preparing the meal. Mhmm. And so much detail, so much attention to detail to get everything right. Yeah. And from the first level, people just walk all over like it. Oh, yes.

31:47KT: Because they used to. Zero appreciation

31:49Oti: just Succession. Wow. Yeah. It it really does get the mind thinking and she kind of want to self reflect and say if you're in that situation would you try and be different?

31:55KT: I think after a while complacency sets in. Yeah. Or even in a short amount of time complacency sits in. It happens to the best of us, you know? True.

32:09KT: Like me and mine are good so it's fine. Yeah. Right? But I don't I also don't think that's a negative sort of thing. Like in some cases, life is fucking hard enough just to get you and your loved ones through. Yeah. So why do I why the fuck do I care about a politician? You know what I mean? So in that sort of sense, I get it.

32:26KT: Right? We're watching Dirty Money and they were talking about the Malaysian ex prime minister. Right? And they were interviewing just like a fisherman or some fisherman and they didn't even care about corruption or whatever. They just cared that they got money from him whenever he came to visit. Know You what I mean? Like, there is Fuck the economy. What does it do for me? I was getting money monthly. Fuck you and the corruption you claim. Okay? But you know what I mean? Like, sometimes

32:51KT: it's not a bad thing that people are focusing on themselves. Sometimes it's all they have to get by. That's more what I meant. It's not just I'm greedy and I'm gonna take everything. Yeah. Right? And there are so many layers to this film and that's why I was really, really enjoying it. But that ending, dude. Let's talk about it.

33:08Oti: Alright. So Goreng manages to go all the way down Mhmm. With a child. Yes. Now even before that, we've jumped a chunk where they were taking him and Baharat were taking what was the dessert? The panna cotta. The panna cotta. They're taking the panna cotta down, that would be the message. Only Because of the wise the wise Xavier. The wise Xavier man. Yeah.

33:30KT: Who didn't fucking try and do anything himself. He just rolled in his little wheelchair, and he's like, I'm gonna tell you something. Yeah. Black Xavier.

33:38Oti: And once they found the child who apparently wasn't supposed to be there in the first place Yeah. Because you had Miharu always trying to get down. And the fact that she never found a child meant that she never really got to the bottom floor.

33:51KT: Well, again, when you try to advance yourself, in this case, it was to try and find a child. But when you try to advance yourself, you're relying on the kindness of others. And you constantly saw maybe women, but definitely through the film men taking advantage of her. Yeah. So, yeah, that's probably why she never made it all the way down. True. True. Which is She was at the mercy of whoever's platform she was on. And she had to fight her way to the nail to get free. She killed, she ate, and that's how she survived.

34:22Oti: Up until she didn't where our main guy, Goreng, saw her being choked and stabbed and stood there just doing nothing in shock. Come on. Seems to be the way. Those are solid ten seconds where you could have taken action.

34:37KT: And also, Imoguiri, the lady with the dog, she was under the impression that Miharu was an actress. Do you think that was fed to her by the company Yeah. To keep that secret? Yeah. Yeah. Because you're allowed to bring one thing and I think she brought her daughter A child. For some ridiculous reason. Well, it's interesting. Right? Because if you knew a child was there and the child was the message, then you lose the message because the message is kindness. Yeah. The message is selflessness. The message is, you know, taking care of that generation. Right?

35:04KT: But let's talk about Miharu's character. It's very, very, very interesting. The way she's introduced to us is literally at the start of the film where we're told to believe that she's looking for a son. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting because Oti and I are very different players. So you would probably wanna choose Oti if you're navigating the video game of the platform. You would not wanna choose KT because I was literally Trimagasi and I was like, let's kill it. And I would be the one that would be dead on January.

35:32Oti: You would be.

35:33KT: Because I I was shocked that she helped Goreng, and then you're like, of course, kindness goes a long way. Yeah. It does.

35:40Oti: And that's the sort of message that we saw them trying to push through on this. Mhmm. She was this scared and on the mercy of two blokes who could have taken tried to take advantage of her or tried to make her fight for her life. Yeah.

35:52Oti: And the fact that she he was so caring and approached her as a human and not some animal and not some rancid thing that you just, you know? It would definitely stand out from the day to day of you. Yeah. And we saw it come to fruition when it was the roles are sort of reversed where he was the vulnerable one. Uh-huh. And she came to his rescue True. And nursed him back to health.

35:52KT: Mate, I I was in full survival mode. I wasn't thinking about kindness.

35:52Oti: And that's what I was saying. Like, sometimes it just takes it's good to take a step back and and and be do that extra sort of act of kindness.

35:52KT: But there's also nothing wrong with survival though. Survive it's not it's not wrong.

35:52Oti: But then again, we are all trying to survive.

36:29KT: And virtually Oh, dog. Watch out for watch out for our abacus that says we're all here to survive.

36:29Oti: But it's true. Like, you're not you're you're not in isolation.

36:39Oti: The person next to you is pretty much the same situation as you are. True. So trying to figure out a solution together is more beneficial than going it alone and only, you know, only being self serving.

36:49KT: Well, no. Not really. The solution was that Baharat and Goreng actually just fought people off and threatened them. Yeah. It wasn't communism. Well, because It was them kicking you in the head and shoving bars in the back of your head. That's what it was. True. So they take their panna cotta all the way down. I did like I did like the notion of that because they were trying to feed everyone. And then you have Professor Xavier in his wheelchair

37:17KT: saying, if you wanna really show that we're together and, you know, we've achieved something, keep one of the most prized sort of foods. I thought that was a nice little layer. It was a good layer. Because that transcends the one day of kindness where people can eat. Yeah. Right? And then we take it to another level where they show an act of kindness to the child and the child gets to eat the panna cotta. Yeah. Even then I was like, don't give it to that fucking kid. You need that. You need the message.

37:43KT: Maybe the child became the message because the child ate the message.

37:47Oti: No. She was always the message because no one made it all the way down there to see the message, to know that that's the message. Even when Goreng was calculating, he was saying maybe two fifty and that would be a stretch.

37:55KT: Yeah. But that's wrong because if

37:55Oti: No. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying it was even more than he could even conceive. Yeah. Because it doesn't stop on floors where there's no human life. So

38:06Oti: it'll just pass by and you'll miscalculate because you don't know. You'd think that it stopped there, but it didn't. So there were 333 333? Well, over 300 platforms.

38:17KT: Yeah. Yeah. And then we have, you know, the old man greeting Goreng and they walk off because the message doesn't need A messenger.

38:28Oti: Yeah. Or a handler.

38:30KT: You can't handle the message. But it is a good phone. Absolutely not. You are. And then the kid gets shot up to heaven and that's the end. That's the end. The fuck was that? I guess. Don't I guess. I saw how annoyed you were.

38:47Oti: I was frustrated at that because I wanted more of a closure. Mhmm. Because at that state, I'm thinking, okay. So what does this mean? Does it mean that Goreng has has accepted that his life is not worth outside of this sort of platform scenario? Uh-huh. Has he given up? Has he completely seen that whoever he is coming in cannot really fully assimilate in the world that he left, knowing what he's done? So there's a semblance of

39:17Oti: I don't wanna say giving up. It's acceptance rather. Okay. There's acceptance that he's he's a different person than from why he came in. There's an acceptance that his his mental state and health isn't exactly what is because he I think he thinks he's going crazy, and he fights with himself to try and retain some semblance of sanity Mhmm. Which we can see is quickly,

39:40Oti: quickly fleeing him. Yep. So the fact that he decided to stay at the bottom of that duct, whatever, where they'll food will never get to him Mhmm. Not even people, maybe the people that throw themselves over the platform, he's pretty much given up on survival.

39:55Oti: Yeah. That was my taking. He's given up on survival. He wants to die there and just say try and save everyone else using the message.

39:55KT: But if you wanna die, why would you wanna go and save people? And and then again, why would you assume that she's the message? Maybe she's just a kid that was there stuck. She probably was. Because the administration seemed like they wouldn't give a shit. They didn't seem like they were monitoring anything. And a question I have as well

39:55Oti: Aside from food being left on the platform.

40:18KT: Right. But the question that I have is you've got 333 levels with two people on each level. You know what that equals, Oti? Six six six. But that wasn't the point. The point the point was they had to roofie everyone and move them in enough time that they would still not be conscious. How the fuck did that happen? Or was it more of a budget thing they didn't wanna be able to coordinate that? Because I find it hard to believe that they were able to move people

40:52KT: to like completely different levels. It didn't seem like there were doors inside of it. It was just that one hole in the middle. Right? So like logistically, how did they move everyone? No idea. Or we supposed to just suspend that at the door? Yeah.

41:07Oti: No idea how they moved them. I think that was left to our imaginations. Maybe they were aliens. Maybe they had jet packs.

41:15KT: Because I would have like I would have shoved sheets and pillowcases in all of my holes. You're not gassing me today, son. Actually, no one tried to stay awake to see Yeah. Like, one even why didn't even Goreng try that before he did all of his noble sort of socialism? Just pretend you're asleep.

41:31Oti: Yeah. Pull a classic Westworld. What was it? Thandie Newton? Yeah. Pull a Thandie Newton on there and just pretend you're frozen or stuck and see what they're doing. Spoiler. Is that a spoiler? No. It's not. It's the first episode. It's a Thandie in the Get off air. It's a Thandie glitch in the matrix.

41:47KT: So, yes, it kind of is.

41:50Oti: But, yeah, again, that's probably it it it's a tiny sort of qualm that I have. But logistically, it would have been a lot to have to move all of those people. It would have been a lot. And then you could see the busters that are doing this. Because if if keeping food on a platform is more is is valued higher than killing other people, which seems like they don't even give a shit Yeah. Then this is not an administration who would think that sending a message all the way up with a child would mean shit to them.

42:16KT: I don't ever want this taken out of context. So just remember this is not going to be a sound bite. If I was in El Hoyo, I would jump down to all of the platforms and stab everyone on my way down. There'll be so many people that they'll need to, like, discard of and replace. I will have time to wake up when they gas me, and then I'll stab them.

42:39KT: And you know what I actually don't get? The platform goes all the way down if everyone is alive. Right? So it kinda didn't work for my plan. But if the platform just goes all the way down, why don't you just wait? Because apparently once you get to the end of the platform, you're out. I'm assuming there's like some door to the left hand side of the room and you just walk out and go into the real world.

42:39Oti: I don't think there's a there's a door at the end.

42:39KT: So what do you think happens to Goreng?

42:39Oti: He dies there. The door is at level zero. That's where everything comes in from. And that's why I told you. What I thought he'd left was him surrendering and accepting defeat and death. Having felt some sort of vindication

43:13Oti: that the message will reach the top and they'll do the right thing.

43:13KT: Ew. Is that oh my god.

43:13Oti: What's why I compared it to some sort of premature ejaculation because up until that point, they've done us well. They've done a good job explaining everything and doing all of a sudden, bam. It's finished knowing so didn't take that as a sacrificial thing. Took it as has given it all up on some random

43:13KT: I took it as him finding a door somewhere and leaving.

43:13Oti: No. He he just took a leap of faith knowing that, oh, the message does not need a bearer.

43:13KT: Fuck that. No. Fuck that. I'm staying on the platform and kicking the kid off.

43:44KT: No wonder you were so annoyed with it. Damn, dawg. Yeah. That's Well, pretty much it. I I don't really have anything else to say about this, to be honest.

43:53Oti: It was it's it's definitely a movie that'll make you think a lot. And wow. I think it'll put things in perspective whereas especially when we can draw so many parallels with the day to day. Mhmm. It will definitely make you think twice the next time you want to be mean to someone. Why are you looking at me?

44:11KT: I think the reason why I was so annoyed with the ending was it had shown very early in the film how capable it was of delivering a heavy yet balanced message. Even if you don't agree with it, you know, it was really on its way to delivering something that was meaningful. That was passionate. And then it just ended. To think that he had sacrificed himself for the kid.

44:42Oti: For the message?

44:43KT: For the oracle. I don't know how that sits with me. It kind of cheapens the whole movie to be honest. Yeah, I don't know. I just No because everything he did wasn't a long lasting sort of change.

44:58Oti: It might have changed that day, but it doesn't change months from now. Well, and I guess that's why it's a leap of faith. He's just hoping that the administration will do the right thing and hoping that there's an actual message in the end of it. Dear lord, it's ridiculous. That's a lot of hope. It's a lot of hope. Maybe too much hope. Wow. Two men who have not eaten for days thinking that there's a message.

45:20KT: So you think it's like it's kind of like delusions and stuff. It might be. They're not thinking the best things. They're thinking that there must be a reason. There must be purpose. It's like, it's one thing to eat human flesh, but, like, they didn't even seem to cook it. Wouldn't you get sick? Like, just eating meat that's raw in general. Yeah. I don't know about that. Well,

45:38Oti: you said you had to do anything to survive, so I guess people had to win. At least it was like popsicles in Alive.

45:46KT: I think this is the most we've ever talked about cannibalism. I think so. Right? Yeah. Well, tune in next week kids. We have a whole series. Were there any other standouts or any other messages you wanted to mention about the film?

46:01Oti: Not really. It was It was very insular. It was very insular. It it really was. And like you've mentioned, we've seen movies that have executed this sort of concept better

46:13KT: Mhmm.

46:14Oti: With a more gratifying ending because the ending alone just really pissed me off because of what it symbolized. Yep. And maybe that's just a self preferential thing, but I don't know what I can say more to that.

46:26KT: Don't you think the chef that was kind of overseeing everything kinda looked like Wolfgang Puck? I didn't I didn't see that. I had to look it up just to make sure. And do they look alike? Apparently, it's not him.

46:42Oti: Wonder why.

46:45KT: Conspiracy. Keep your tinfoil hats on, friends and lovers. But, yeah, like the fact that like you mentioned before, the fact that they put so much care into these meals, you know, without any sort of regard of whether it will feed everyone. It's like I'm going to make this most perfect dish. Like you said, people are just going to step all over that shit. Yeah. And I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. Interesting. I wonder if the chefs end up having to get pushed down there as well. No. If you don't cook properly. Because

47:14KT: they literally but you literally have like nothing to do. Like, you're just waiting around for that food and whatever let's talk about this just quickly. It was interesting to see in quick sort of montages what people chose as their possession. So Goreng had his book. Yeah. The old man had his very sharp ninja. Samurai Plus. Oh, sorry. Samurai Plus. No Tom Cruise included.

47:38Oti: Mhmm.

47:39KT: And then we also saw the dog. Mhmm. More sausage than dog in that sort of context.

47:45Oti: We saw a surfboard. We saw who would bring a surfboard?

47:48KT: Yeah. Because you you know that you're going into a cell. At least that much is established. You are going into a confined space. You're not going to be able to surf, dude. Idiot. We also saw a violin, and very interesting one was money.

48:04Oti: Yeah. It was the most useless thing on there. At least a softball you could I don't know. Try and hit someone with Try and hit someone with it. Use it as a weapon. Try and eat it if you get hungry. Unless you're a shark, I don't know how much it'll do you. Desperate. Oh, it does mean just well, don't you worry?

48:21Oti: But money is just completely useless. You can buy her a type of rope, which is sort of a good idea, but that then again, you're pretty much relying on the goodness of other people. Yeah.

48:21KT: No. A rope is interesting. Like spank people with it. He could be like the Wonder Woman of El Hoyo with

48:36KT: his lasso of truth. Yep.

48:38Oti: Yep.

48:40KT: But, yeah, the money one was really interesting. You could probably try and bribe people when they first get but once they realize they're never fucking getting out, like money literally is a social construct. It means nothing in that context. Yep. And he's like trying to throw money at people. But I think those were the most interesting aside from Miharu bringing in a child. Yeah. That was really interesting. And I think they kind of noted to it early in the film when they said you can bring anything.

49:07KT: So they kind of left that opportunity open. Right? Well, there you go. Thanks for joining us friends and lovers for another episode in the For Your Reference podcast. I guess just like don't be shit people. Don't be dicks. Don't be Wolfgang's. Unless you're actually Wolfgang because you're probably happy with all of your money. But wow.

49:27Oti: I think I will look back fondly on this film if I disregard the last 10. Yeah. Me too. Like, at least it it brought to a table a quite a unique idea that was interesting. Yeah. The execution bit of it was sort of nice up until the end. Yeah. So, yeah, like, overall a good job, you know? Nice. Not gonna throw a parade or anything, but good.

49:27KT: Not your My Chemical Romance parade?

49:27Oti: No, not not to that level unfortunately.

49:54KT: When I was an Oti.

49:57Oti: My KT took me into the city to see a A

50:02KT: mariachi band. I wanna hope if anyone is in a El Hoyo situation, if you see our podcast on the food table that you will eat it and you won't stamp all over it. But that's just a little baby KT hope to have. But thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We take kindly to your kind around here. We are going to end in a segment we call For Your Reference. Oti.

50:25Oti: I'm gonna reference the Exam.

50:28KT: How dare you? I literally started off this episode referencing that, you motherfucker.

50:35Oti: I brought Gemma Chan to your life. I can take her wherever I please. You can't take Gemma anywhere. Gemma takes herself. I'm gonna reference the nineteen ninety seven Cube. Nice. Which is an amazing, amazing, amazing film. And I think if you want to see a good execution, this is it. Very interesting. You won't get bored. It's about six people trapped in a sort of maze, and it's just interesting to see how everyone navigates

51:04KT: Nice.

51:04Oti: And how they get along.

51:04KT: Yeah. Interesting. Very interesting. And it's your own reference, so good for you. I've never stolen the Cube as a reference if you listen to all of our episodes. I will reference Exam. Oh, yeah? Yeah. You know what I mentioned at the start of the episode? Mhmm. Quite nice, don't you reckon? If you want to join us on the social media platforms, on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We have a YouTube channel as well if you're interested. And

51:35KT: we're also on Apple Podcasts, if you'll be so kind to leave a rating, whichever level you feel we deserve. Top tier. Top tier. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.