The Harder They Fall – Rufus Motherbucker

Full transcript of The Harder They Fall – Rufus Motherbucker.

0:00KT: Howdy. Welcome to another week in the For Your Reference household. And mark it off your bingo cards, friends and lovers. Within this year of podcasting, it is the second cowboy Idris Elba iteration.

0:14KT: We

0:17KT: do have some young kid characters, but they're definitely not as annoying as the stranger guy. Let's get on with the show. Welcome friends and unscrupulous blade wiping lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. It's your host, KT.

0:17Oti: And Oti.

0:17KT: Open the holy book of Clarence and initiate the countdown. Allow us the latitude of completion with The Harder They Fall this week. Wow, Oti.

0:17Oti: Yeah. I think this is what the what the kids call a new classic where it feels legendary even though it recently just came out. Wow, wow,

1:22Oti: wow. Yeah. I think my soul has never been happier, mate.

1:22KT: I don't think I don't think you've entered your physical form yet. I think you're still flying around in this soulful experience. Let's get into the stats and general information about this film. I guess the first noted is kudos. We actually have an appropriately suitable genre tagging of a western. Oh. I think horror and thriller kinda get a bit discombobulated, but here we do have a western film helmed, directed, written by Jeymes Samuel.

1:58KT: We were aware that he did have a short called They Die by Dawn because when the trailer for The Harder They Fall came out, we did see it, but we haven't had a chance to watch it. So it'll be interesting after this to watch it, and we'll definitely report back. Friends and lovers, Jeymes Samuel is also a musician, which when we talk about the soundtrack

2:19KT: and the score of this film, it will be very apparent. Apparently, it was also part of the music department on The Great Gatsby as well as a soundtrack for Love, Rosie. Oh. Yeah. So it's the rom com. It's not the rom com with Simon Baker and Sanaa Lathan, and I'll keep saying it until we cover it, Oti. Also written in the screenplay, have Boaz Yakin, and we have very notably produced by Mr. Carter, Jay Z. Friends and Lovers, for those of you that are on Twitter, there is a capability called Spaces,

2:55KT: I believe. So it's kind of like the clubhouse sort of functionality in Twitter. And we just happened upon a conversation about The Harder They Fall And Jay Z was in there and I think I'm more familiar with the impersonations of Jay Z's voice and his voice is pure sunshine. Like I like hearing Jay Z talk. It was fun and it was very exciting. And also during that time in the spaces, Jeymes Samuel was talking about how he had a conflict on how he wanted to deliver this, especially in a Pamela's Panini's sort of world.

3:30KT: Even though there are some cinemas that are opening up, there is the broader sort of conversation about accessibility. You know, Jeymes Samuel talks about writing this film and having a vision for this film for all black people. So, you know, in certain places in Africa, Netflix is available as opposed to having accessibility of cinema. And that is a great and wonderful topic. And I'm sure we'll get into that

3:54KT: another day, but I'm glad that Jay Z was the one to convince him to put this onto Netflix and to, you know, place more of an importance on the accessibility and how it is an experience. And Jeymes Samuel also talks about how, you know, you can watch The Godfather now. The Godfather's been out for ages. Go and check out our episode, Friends and Lovers, but you still watch it at home and it's still a classic. There was an element of foreshadowing oranges and I'm not gonna spoil it, but if you've watched The Godfather

4:24KT: and you've also watched this film, I'm going to believe this is a KT unabridged IMDb trivia that there was a correlation and a nod to Godfather. But welcome, welcome, welcome friends and lovers. Pew, pew, pew, spoilers, spoiler, We're gonna get nasty. It is a lovely, tasty, delicious time in the For Your Reference household. It's been a while since I've done this, but I'm gonna do a speed round of cast, Oti because usually I just do the three, but we have such an overwhelming cast of talent.

4:59KT: I'm going to get as many as I can say in one breath. Are you start with the star of this though. Edi Gathegi. Woo hoo.

5:08Oti: You read the whole list. Don't understand it to girls.

5:12KT: Edi Gathegi, Jonathan Majors, Zazie Beetz, RJ Cyler, Chase Dillon, DeWanda Wise, Damon Wayans Jr., Deon Cole, LaKeith Stanfield, and Regina, runner back motherfucking king. Oti, Oti, Oti, Oti. It is very rare that we watch something and we even watch a trailer and we're excited about it. Furthermore, the excitement is met when we actually watch it. Yeah. Let's get into first impressions. I guess even before we talk about The Harder They Fall, you know, I guess you can say that Westerns is a higher barrier of entry. It's not your

5:56KT: it's not the more accessible sort of action or comedy. It's its own genre. Right? So let's talk about Westerns in general, just to see if you had any pepperings, if any of the smoking barrels or the Eastwood branded yelling at chairs reached Kenyan shore. So let's talk about Westerns in general, and I guess this is a great plug to say adjacent to Redwood, perhaps in a in a universe is Deadwood. So go and check out our Deadwood episode. And I also referenced Concrete Cowboy, which we've also covered. Yeah.

6:29Oti: Like majority of the time we used to we had like one channel growing up. Mhmm. And it used to air a lot of westerns a lot of the time. Mhmm. And all of those, you know, it's just all wide cast, pretty much. Mhmm. And you grow up to love this sort of you have this portrayal of a western you associate to a certain type of look and feel, and you're like, hey. Cool. You know? I appreciated Westerns. I don't think in recent memory I've watched any Western per se. Mhmm. But I grew up watching them, and I I think the last one I watched was True Grit, if you wanna classify that as a Western of sorts. But wow.

7:05Oti: I think my memory of what Westerns were of a kid and it being met with Jeymes Samuel's vision of it just created this cataclysmic sort of situation in my bloody mind that I I can't, for the life of me, get over. And I feel like I need to rewatch it as many times. I need to hear the soundtracks a bit more just to feel that nirvana high a bit.

7:05KT: And you know I also really love about

7:36KT: this film and the watching experience because we watched it twice now, was the sense of ownership that you had watching this film. It was fun to be able to experience it. And I I know we'll never get to the level, but I I would have really loved to have experienced this film in like Kenyan cinemas similar when like Black Panther was at its peak and we were experiencing it in Kenya at that time. There was a sense of ownership that you had watching this

8:05Oti: We talk about resonance and and and references

8:07Oti: a lot. Yeah. And I think when you watch things, when you feel like you're so far removed from them, yes, you can enjoy it and to some level love it, but a lot of the time, there'll always be this empty space where you feel like there's something missing. You might not be able to point it out, and a lot of the times, that's how I grew up. When you watch things and you don't really see yourself, you don't see your culture, you don't see your your skin. And when these barriers start coming down and you're like, oh, fuck. Imagine

8:37Oti: an age old Oti watching this and fuck sakes, you know? And to my degree, like, what I am right now was brought about with connecting with fucking Lion King just because he fucking spoke Swahili in two two fucking words, you know? And it could be the most miniscule thing, but you connect and you resonate because, mate, see someone with this bloody skin color or speaking

9:00Oti: your bloody language or I don't know. Like you were starved for representation. So even Lion King at the time was enough. Right? You're starved, but you don't know you're starved. Yeah. And you kind of you don't expect to get something like The Harder They Fall because you're so used to not seeing. Yeah. That's why it got excited. It brought me to a stage where I felt like I was a fucking kid watching this. Yeah. And I was like, far out. I really enjoyed it to the depths of my fucking soul. And I was like, there were moments I could definitely fucking nitpick, but those are so bloody drowned in the overwhelming emotions and feels that I have for this. Yeah. Leave alone the fucking Oti tax. Like

9:41KT: How about the Edi tax? Actually, no. That that's the question because, you know, like I mentioned, I think in the initial The Boys episode we did, I mentioned that Simon Pegg has a fucking British face. Edi Gathegi has a very unmistakable fucking Kenyan face. So it's so it's it's great to see black stories and it be helmed by black people. But how does it feel seeing an undeniable Kenyan face in in a gloriously

10:10KT: black film?

10:10Oti: I feel like a lot of this stuff well, a lot of the times, I think Edi Gathegi doesn't get the the clamor or or that he deserves because

10:10KT: Can we talk about it?

10:10Oti: He's fucking great in everything he does. We recently covered Startup, and he was the star of it by miles. You know, his acting chops are, you know, far out. Like, I was just pleased. And the fact that they used the fast face I saw when the movie started Yeah. After the credits. Yeah.

10:42Oti: Man. I I don't know. I don't know. I just have a lot of love and and adoration for this movie. And I think if you've not watched it and you're listening to this, just just do it. Dive in, man. You you would not you would not be disappointed. Stop being nasty. You will enjoy all of our episodes. But if you haven't watched this film, it is our duty as the custodians

11:05Oti: of of, you know, the continuation of black cinema. Go and fucking watch it.

11:05KT: But that's absolutely true. Like, a lot of how, like, we we covered Twilight and like a good 80% was talking about Edi Gathegi and he deserves all of the love and all of the attention. There's there's acting and there's thespian god tier level acting. And that is Edi Gathegi. And I will continue to scream that from the rooftops.

11:33Oti: Facts.

11:34KT: He just does it so effortlessly. I'm not saying that there's only room for one and I love that Lupita is getting a lot of love and praise, but people who need to remember Edi Gathegi. Don't forget about Edi Gathegi Dre. But just generally overall, yeah, I absolutely agree with everything you said. But this also friends and lovers, if you're listening in a linear timeline, this is where the qualms and the quandary or in this film, the quarrel lies. Because you said that you will rate in our Christmas special, you will rate Candyman

12:11KT: very highly even though you have fundamental issues with it. Yeah. But you love this film with everything even without any sort of qualm.

12:20KT: So then how how is that fair is what I'm saying?

12:20Oti: There's nothing fair about it. The industry hasn't been fair for fucking long, so I can't put a lens of fairness and pretend that the last how many fucking years hasn't happened. Speaking of fairness, let's address the colorism in the room.

12:39KT: KT, your segue queen, friends and lovers. We weren't even aware. It wasn't until we listened to that Twitter spaces with Jeymes Samuel, Jay Z, and a whole lot of the people involved in making The Harder They Fall at Netflix. We didn't even realize that there was a whole controversy around Zazie Beetz being casted as Stagecoach Mary. I saw that.

13:03Oti: I think one of the things that Jeymes Samuel said was that a lot of these characters did look like the original people, you know, like Cherokee Bill. He was White passing. Exactly.

13:16KT: LaKeith can be many things, but he's not white passing. Yep. The same way with Nat Love. He was 18 at the time. And Jonathan Majors can be many things, but not look 18 years old. Yeah. And I get that sort of point of view and

13:31Oti: Farah, like, it's just I was just happy to see black people there. And when you think of it a bit critically, it's weird. Like, I can't name a movie or I can't name five movies that I've watched recently that I said have been black led and or the main protagonist or or the main supporting actor is is is that is not a Duskian

13:52Oti: woman. You know, like, it's it's it's a thing that you get to notice a lot if you're looking for that sort of shit. Even if you're not, if you think back and just, you know, oh, you watched that movie, who was the lead? Who was the main supporting, know, if the lead guy is white or whatever, you know? Even the love interest, like it's just it comes to a point where I understand what Jeymes says, but those things he was highlighting were not really issues. They're not the same thing. It's not the same thing.

14:20KT: Yeah. But I also, I guess maybe it's because I'm not black. So I don't obviously I might what I have to say isn't of the same value, but I don't believe that Jeymes Samuel has to hold the burden of all of the shortcomings of Hollywood. That's that's personally what I believe. Like, he doesn't have to fix all of the wrongdoings in this one film. That's not on him as a creator

14:48KT: and that's not necessarily what this film is. He also mentioned, you know, Nina Simone and that had a lot of controversy because she's light skinned and it just didn't work. Right? There was a whole conversation, there was a whole dialogue about that as well. But what I'm saying and he also said, because it was a biopic. So it's actually talking about her life. We're talking about black people that existed in this timeframe.

15:12KT: And there are stories that are happening between these characters, but it's not necessarily a true story, even though the true stories are never really the true story. Right? So I guess that removes a bit more of the onus. But I will say there was a bit of a twinge when we were watching the film and I did see Zazie Beetz and I I did wonder

15:34KT: that, know, given the fact that she was light skinned, I I was wondering, wouldn't have Stagecoach Mary been darker skinned at the time? But I kind of just explained in my head maybe because she was lighter, she was able to be more successful, but I kind of just left it and continued

15:51KT: enjoying the movie as it was. It didn't really stop me from enjoying the movie, if that makes sense.

15:51Oti: Neither did it stop me from enjoying it. It's just all those things in retrospect that you think about, and you're like, oh, maybe. Maybe what could? And he doesn't have to shoulder anything. That's fine. It is what it is. You know? At the end of the day, does he did a good job.

16:13KT: She did a great job. Shout out to the Atlanta cast and crew. Yeah.

16:18Oti: Getting some great jobs. I was looking for some Atlanta sort of references in here. But, wow, it was it was good to see them, especially just how they've sown after being in Atlanta, you know. Like, LaKeith and Zazie just straight through.

16:32KT: Oh, absolutely. And don't forget our Brian Tyree Henry as well. Yeah. Paper Boi. Yeah. Gotta get that Paper Boi. Yeah. True. True. True. This film, I really enjoyed this film. I feel like even I think we're like ten minutes into watching it the first time. I'm like, I feel like this is gonna be a yearly watch for us.

16:49Oti: I seldom watch movies repeat watching movies. Within a two year time frame. Yeah. Yeah. But I watched this the second time in over what? Two days? Yeah. It's it's it's it was that enjoyable to me. And I think one of the things that really played the part is just the score in the movie. Mhmm. I grew up with a lot of reggae. Mhmm. There's there's a disconnect or there's a dissonance between you listening to reggae and maybe it featuring in a movie for something.

17:19Oti: You rarely get to hear any sort of reggae in any movie.

17:19KT: That's cause you didn't appreciate Belly for the masterpiece it was.

17:26Oti: How dare you?

17:28Oti: I had issues with the characters in Belly.

17:28KT: Hype OT Williams, friends and lovers.

17:33KT: But wow. Does it not fucking work, does it? Oh, it's great. Like and let let's talk about it. Interestingly enough, there were only a few silent moments that were decidedly silent that helped to build the tension in this film. The soundtrack was fucking great. And if you have watched the film, but you haven't watched any interviews with Jeymes Samuel, do yourself a favor and watch it. He is so fucking charismatic and he's he's so musically inclined and he talks about whenever he writes a script, it's never two separate sort of scripts. He interweaves

18:13KT: the music and that's why it works so well in the film. It It really moves together in a symphony, if you'll pardon the pun.

18:20Oti: Yeah, it does. And I think the moments with every scene change we had, we had a score. You know, it was intentional and it could portray the, what was happening at the time, the emotion that he wanted you to feel. I think the fact that it was something super different to what I'm used to Yeah. Hearing, especially in movies, I was I was just taking aback. And again, it comes back to the theme of ownership.

18:47KT: You know, Jeymes Samuel, you know, talks about how, you know, most people will say they don't like Westerns, but he says that you just haven't been nourished with what I have to serve you. Right? And what I really love about it is there's such an ownership on this genre. Not only do we have black characters during this timeframe, but they're not subservient and they're powerful and they're strong and they're rich. And it's great sort of you know what also I appreciate about this film? There was a dichotomy

19:16KT: that was in this film, which I guess you could also perhaps say was in Candyman, absolutely not achieved, but you could say it was presented in Candyman. The easiest sort of black story to have is white people are bad. Like, that's usually like the easiest sort of dynamic to have in a story. But what I really appreciated about this film, it was a black story, it was about black characters, but they weren't one entity. They weren't moving as one unit. And there was the concept of self preservation

19:51KT: and individual gain. You know, even the opening scene that we have to this film, we later come to see is Rufus Buck sitting at the table, killing off these black people. And you you you start to realize that people are out for themselves. And that's not necessarily, I guess, a story that could be told decades ago. We needed to get to the point of nuance, which is where we are now.

20:14Oti: Yeah. A 100%. I think it was it was refreshing. It was refreshing to see. And I think we a lot fall into the trap of the big bad. And it's easy. It's the low hanging fruit, but I think he took a step away. He was like, what's the best sort of movie I can make Yeah. That will be enjoyable by all? Because inherently, I would not call this a fucking black movie or, you know, because I'm putting it in a box then.

20:35KT: It's not. I think it's a black movie. It's just it's it's not only a movie for black people. That's the difference. There's a connotation when you say black movie, but I don't necessarily feel that connotation. When I say black movie, I mean it is loved and nurtured and watered by black people behind and in front of the screens. It's not just a movie for black people, which we happen to watch first Sunday.

21:03Oti: But that's that's the thing where where I want us to break away from when I say because there's that connotation of black movie and you feel like, oh, that's just a movie for black folks. We don't say when a movie comes out, we don't say it's a white movie. It's just want us to be Jeymes Samuel produced a fucking brilliant joint. Go watch it.

21:18KT: Yeah. But for me, I get what you're saying. I get that it can be received a particular way, but we love and lord a lot of like BET produced TV shows. Yeah. So we don't have to say, oh, but it's still great even though it's on BET. You see what I'm saying? So I understand that it can be received a different way,

21:42KT: but I'm expressing it with all of the love and all of the accolades. But just coming back to your point about reggae, there's so much ownership in this film by everyone involved, particularly Jeymes Samuel, because never would anyone ever aside from Jeymes Samuel be able to cohesively and believably interweave reggae into a cowboy western.

22:08Oti: And it feels so fucking natural. Break the fucking mold, I say. We're so used to a silent type. You know, if it's a western, you know the kind of music you're gonna get. Yeah. And no. No for Jeymes Samuel. And he goes like, I'm gonna give you things that you wanted and you didn't know you wanted. Yeah. And wow. Did I not I I received it.

22:08KT: You did. And I was receiving you receiving it.

22:34KT: Do you wanna get into some characters, Oti? Let's get into the characters, man. As much as we love Edi Gathegi, I think we need to focus on the main character. Let's talk about Nat Love.

22:44Oti: Yeah. We get to see him as a kid introduced when Rufus Buck carves a bloody cross in his forehead. And we see him traversing this sort of, oh, this journey of, I wanna revenge on. I kill all of them. You know, I wanna kill everyone that was involved in my parents' killing. Mhmm. And I got all that. I think I bought in to the journey. I bought to what that must must have made him feel and how he became who he is. Yep. Because at that age, you're like, fuck everyone, man. I'd kill indiscriminately

23:16Oti: because why the fuck not? Mhmm. My parents are taken away, so everyone else is fucking fair game. True. We can't really blame him that he's a a robber, even though he's just stealing from other crooks and banks necessarily, you could really, really, really connect with him. You could understand all the decisions he made and why he made them. You know? It it wasn't a point where I was like, why? It wasn't more reactionary. And we've just talked about this from Candyman, where we felt a lot of things were just happening, happening to

23:50Oti: Yahya's character. Points. Exactly. But not to serve the story. Yeah. Yeah. But here we see a guy who's flawed in some ways, and that's Yeah?

24:00KT: Sorry. I I heard the word misogyny.

24:03Oti: And that's fine. But he learns and he grows and he understands. And even up until the end, I think that's where my issues started coming in or flowing in when I felt like maybe there was a different path it could have taken. Mhmm. But maybe we'll get that once we start talking about Rufus Buck.

24:03KT: That's interesting because I I do have qualm

24:23KT: and out of love for you, I didn't wanna bring it up this early, but I'm

24:28Oti: I'm glad you're opening

24:30KT: But the I don't necessarily have any qualms with Nat Love, but I'm it'll be interesting to see what you have specifically in his direction. I love that the premise was set up very early in this film. It was going to be a revenge plot. It was going to be Nat Love in whatever form ended up being on a major form, if you're nasty. Know, him seeking out at the time we weren't aware of who it was, but Rufus Buck, he was going to seek Rufus Buck out and it was going to be a street fighter,

25:04KT: Naruto, but I'll come back. Oh, wow. I half committed. Do you see what happens friends and lovers? That's what happens when you half commit off the diving board. But I really enjoyed his character. I did joke misogyny. I still agree it's misogyny, but back at the time, unfortunately still now, but back at the time it was suited and it made sense that he would be that particular way. I really liked him. He was loyal to his crew. I think his crew were very loyal to him as well. They had an understanding,

25:38KT: they loved each other, they really were a team, not just some people that were together for their own individual gain. I think he was super solid and he was very strong. I don't know, because the interesting thing is because everyone is black, it's not like you're rooting against any of them. I don't think at any time I was

25:57KT: stronger on one side than the other. Like, was there a particular did you wanna see Nat Love's gang triumph over Rufus Buck or you didn't care either way? You were just happy to enjoy it?

25:57Oti: I didn't care. I was happy to enjoy it.

25:57KT: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, go everybody. You know, Rufus Buck was presented as someone who had a vision that he wanted Redwood to represent something. Yeah. You know? Like a like a Black Wall Street.

25:57Oti: Exactly. We we kinda see his

26:23Oti: where he's going with it. Something that so much the man so much that treacherous Trudy was willing to buy in and give all her life into the bloody vision.

26:29KT: Man, if my name was Gertrude, I would come up with treacherous Trudy too.

26:41Oti: And and that's what it is. Like Yeah. I can understand the revenge part of it, but I cannot understand Rufus' side.

26:47KT: Well, at the time, we didn't even know what was motivating him. He was just an evil guy guy.

26:54Oti: Yeah. Like, did you know? I was taken aback at the end of it when he didn't fucking try to retaliate or

26:54KT: Okay. Well, well, let's talk about it. Again, I did mention Naruto and

27:04KT: Street Fighter or even Mortal Kombat, you know, in in a lot of well, fighting, but just like revenge plots, it really does just focus on two people. You wronged me, I'm going to get stronger, level up, get all the XP and come fight you. Yeah. Right? That's essentially what is happening in this film. And we did say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Idris on a cowboy, Idris on a horse if you nasty spoiler.

27:30KT: But let's come to it. So we talked about Nat Love. Let's talk a little bit about Rufus Buck and we can talk about the ending. Rufus Buck, had a lot of qualm with. I had a lot of qualm with. And even watching it the second time around, it got more frustrating to me. And I guess this is just me and, you know, I love the underdog. I love the idea of rising through the ranks. I love the idea of, you know, working hard and earning your position.

27:58KT: And more and more, even the first time watching the film, as the scenes went on, it was very clear to me that Rufus Buck wasn't he wasn't like a Spartan king. He wasn't gonna be in the midst of battle with you. And even like further to the end of the film where everyone was having their final standoffs, where we have Nat Love and Stagecoach Mary having really the only rival partner scene in Bad Boys trilogy, when they were having the standoff with the guns,

28:27KT: I was like, I was actually really surprised that Nat Love had combatant skills and he was actually very skillful with a gun. I was surprised by that because even really early on in the film with Rufus Buck, he had his henchmen. Right? So I was very surprised that Nat Love went in the trenches and he was doing the dirty work and getting his hands dirty. And that was part of the the qualm that I have, even watching it for the first time,

28:53KT: Rufus Buck, because first of all, he felt like he elevated himself, which kind of makes sense with power hierarchies,

29:00KT: but it didn't even seem like he was very good at fighting, and that kind of made it less exciting for me.

29:00Oti: I don't think there was a sense where

29:00KT: Where no. But where did he show his physical skills?

29:00Oti: He doesn't need to because he's Rufus Buck. That's the whole point of it. You have gangs breaking lines because Rufus Buck is out of bloody jail and they're going to rejoin him. Mhmm. That tells you all you need to know about the bloody man. That's strong arming. That's not his No. Necessarily

29:26Oti: You're not gonna follow a bloody simp. This is our incel unite. Oh my. It's it's

29:32KT: You just tarnished that episode about the best film.

29:36Oti: It's it's the legend, the man. He's done shit. The Oh, he's ordered people to do shit. You don't you don't start from the top, mate. We're talking about fucking black people in eighteen nineties, mate. There's no way you're telling me that he he he was born into shit. This is not being born into power.

29:36KT: Yeah. Well, but like I said, that's just a personal, like

29:59Oti: Did you want a montage? I think that's what I was missing for you. You wanted a montage of what Rufus Buck was before you could understand you could accept it.

29:59KT: No. But I did acknowledge

30:10KT: it's my when I when I watch and I resonate with characters, it's the characters that, you know, use the grit of their teeth and and the nails on their fingers. Fuck off. That's a saying. But it's it's people that actually go in and do the dirty work, and I don't think it was one of them. But that has nothing to do with the timing that it's set in. That's just me personally and when I choose to care about characters.

30:33Oti: Well, we don't get to see a lot of Cherokee Bill's combative skills, but we know that he's fucking skillful just based off some people talk about him.

30:33KT: We don't know that, but we'll we'll come to

30:33Oti: Yeah. We know that he fucking survives at the end of it.

30:49KT: Well, But that two things don't equate, my love. So let's let's stay with Rufus Buck. So you are fine with him. Yeah. Okay. So, but I acknowledge that that's my personal resonance with characters. It's not necessarily a writing thing. It's just me. But let's talk about not necessarily the ending, but it kind of culminates into a crescendo in the ending. How we find out because even watching this film, it was made very clear that Rufus Buck's crew

31:16KT: was they were ruthless, if for for lack of better word. And they killed everybody. Like it was very clear that that's how they moved and that's how they operated, which is kind of great because you don't wanna have loose ends either. They killed indiscriminately, but they chose to save that kid Because it was made very clear that it didn't matter whether they were kids or not, they would still kill them. But for some reason,

31:40KT: he let this kid live. Right? That didn't bother me the whole movie. If nothing had been happening in the movie, I would start to focus on the fact that he didn't, it was like a Harry Potter moment, but it was a Christian Harry Potter. That would have bothered me if we didn't have enough to chew on in the meantime, right?

32:01KT: So but it was always in the back of my mind, why him? Why him? Why him? Because every scene we see with Rufus Buck's crew is reinforcing the fact that they're violent and they don't fucking care who you are, they'll kill everyone. Right? So it kept reinforcing. So I always had it at the back of my mind being like, oh, okay. So they're killing all these people but they didn't kill Nat Love. Why? Why? Why?

32:23KT: Maybe I didn't need to know why because I so let's go into the ending. We find out that the reason why is because Rufus Buck and Nat Love share a father. As The Temptations would say, Papa Was a Rollin' Stone. Right? And friends and lovers, another day we need to have a conversation about loved ones who treated you badly and they found the Lord or they got clean or whatever the fuck they did. And somehow all of that anger that you had has to go away.

32:54KT: That's a very pertinent topic, but we're not getting into that today. But that's what we see. There's timeline in, you know, this man's history where he wasn't so great, he wasn't the best father, he wasn't the best person, but then he It looked like he was a priest. I don't know if it was like a subtle way to show that he was a priest, but we saw the white Yeah, was a priest. So maybe it was like one of the first iterations as opposed to the modern sort of collar that we see now.

33:24KT: So that makes sense. From a story point of view, that makes sense. Do you want me to go first?

33:24Oti: Yeah. Go first. I wanna hear what this qualm is.

33:24KT: The qualm I have is, this is kind of like friends and lovers when you go to a job interview and they ask you what your weaknesses are and you say, oh, I'm just too organized. It's really not a weakness, but like the weakness

33:48KT: not necessarily a weakness, but the qualm that I had with the closing of the circle with this particular story arc was that the writing was strong enough to not need that extra hook of emotional resonance.

34:01KT: You didn't need me to care more about Rufus Buck. You didn't need me to care more about Nat Love. You know what I mean? Like, you know, sometimes when it's like you wanna make sure, you wanna have that anchorage that the audience is in for the ride all of the way, I was already there. So I kind of maybe twice rolled my eyes when I had to watch that twice. Because the fact that you have Rufus Buck, who's a ruthless motherfucker title, probably not. But

34:29KT: you have someone that's really ruthless, He saved the kid for whatever reason. Even the fact that the kid was going to come back and seek vengeance was strong enough for me. Like that plays, that flies. Right? But they needed to completely close the circle. And I think maybe I would have preferred it to be open ended, again, because the the story was so complete even without that. There was so much cohesion in the writing, the characters, the interplay between all of the characters was so interesting to me. It is very rare to have secondary

35:03KT: characters that fulfill the screen time even when the protagonists aren't on the screen. You actually invested in, you know, Treacherous Trudy and Stagecoach Mary and them fighting a very resourceful fight. I really enjoyed it. It was very colorful and very resourceful fight with all of the textiles. Right? So I feel like this film did everything I didn't need anymore. How do you feel about the fact that there's a connection, a literal bloodline connection between Nat Love and Rufus Buck? How do you feel about that?

35:33Oti: To me, it made it make sense. It made the movie make sense. It made every decision that Rufus has made make fucking sense. There's no other reason why that kid lives other than the fact that he's he's Rufus's brother. There's no other way Rufus is Rufus doesn't put up a fight other than he is the brother.

35:54Oti: Like and to me, it's made everything come into sort of a full circle with the journey that Nat is on. Because with Nat, we get to see that, yeah, he is going on a bloody revenge mission because his dad his family has been killed. Mhmm. But Rufus was doing the same thing. The dad killed his mom and left them to fend for themselves. Yeah. No. No. No. To fend for himself, Rah.

35:54KT: No. But that's that's solid. That's solid and that's strong. And I really I like the dimension that they had there. I just didn't like the closing of the loop that they had to be brothers because

36:26KT: it kind of not necessarily feels cheap, but it definitely feels a bit counterfeit because it didn't need to do that. And maybe it's just my soap opera watching days. I've seen many twist reveals of people becoming siblings and they never knew all along. Right?

36:26Oti: You know know what I was more angry about without seeing

36:26KT: Uh-huh.

36:26Oti: Is Nat's reaction.

36:47Oti: To me, that was a point where it would have been, man. Oh, father was shit, wasn't No. But yeah.

36:55KT: Cool. No. But he literally had just found out for the first time and the initial reaction is anger. It's anger. It's that, you know, that's why people say don't shoot the messenger. Don't shoot the sheriff, Bob Marley and otherwise. Right? Like, there's a reason why is because us as humans, we direct our initial reaction, which is anger to whoever fucking told us. So it makes sense. It wasn't warranted. If he had time to sit and be mature about it, yeah, he would have acknowledged that his father was human and it may be possible

37:29KT: on what Rufus Buck is saying that maybe his dad do did do terrible things, but he wasn't given the space to have that maturity. It was a literal reflex. Unfortunately,

37:41KT: in this Western, reflex means you get six shots in your heart.

37:41Oti: No. I think more that Rufus had just given up on the end of it. I think that was a big part of it. I think that was a part of him that was looking for a death wish. Yeah. Yeah. He kept on pushing. Death shot, death wish. Yeah. He kept on pushing.

37:41KT: But even the fact that he scarred, like, he scarred the kid with a cross. I think even from that point, and you didn't necessarily agree, but I guess while we're talking,

38:08KT: do you think that the dad knew that that was Rufus, his actual son?

38:08Oti: He knew. Exactly. His first reaction was, oh no.

38:08KT: Knew. Remember when I asked when we were watching it the second time, you're like, nah. He doesn't know.

38:08Oti: No. I said he knew. Of course, he fucking knew. He said no. He said, oh, no.

38:26Oti: Kid knew who the fuck was coming. You know, and I think when you put yourself into Rufus' situation there, there's nothing more heartful to know that he had a family. It's not like he didn't have a kid or a wife. Get a heartfelt But he really treated them like crap. He beat the mom senseless. Yeah. Every single fucking time. Yep. For the miniscule of things. Yep. Gross. And then he turned that into Rufus.

38:51Oti: Yeah. And then when you find out that this fucking guy Yeah. Put his shit up together for some other fucking woman. Yeah. He's got the saddest story. I would shoot them all. He's got the saddest story in this I whole nut would fucking kill them all. I'd be like, fuck, what's this? Yeah. I didn't at that point, I was like, say, you know what? This guy is fucking justified.

39:11KT: But it feels sad. It feels sad that Rufus Buck felt like he was at the end of his line. And I think he was quoting Napoleon. It was essentially talking about the inevitability of your own demise. Yeah. But when in the peak of your success, no one can touch you. Right? I love that. And even watching it the second time around, it was very fitting much like when we were watching it the first time, the lyrics of the songs were very foreshadowing. And I was like, man,

39:45KT: how how what is the possibility that they can find songs that fit this succinctly? And then you realize that Jeymes curated the whole soundtrack. No, but it's great and it makes sense. Yeah. Right? But it wasn't like, he's going up the stairs, gonna kill you. Like, it wasn't like that. There was nuance to the lyrics, but I really appreciated the dialogue in this. I just hate that Rufus Buck ended up being a martyr in this film. In order for Nat Love to become whole and to maybe have something that resembles a happy life,

40:18KT: he felt like he needed to sacrifice himself when as you pointed out, he had the saddest fucking story. Between the two brothers, he had the saddest story. He was Tyrese in Four Brothers.

40:30Oti: He did. And I think the worst thing for me is that he didn't have the guts or he didn't have I wouldn't say guts. He couldn't pull himself up to kill Nat. No. Know? Because Nat did nothing wrong. Exactly.

40:43Oti: And for Nat, was completely different because this is the guy that killed everything that he knew. He didn't Pain. Know he didn't know he didn't care about the pain that the dad inflicted. Yeah. Because at the end of it, his mom was innocent of all that. Yeah. But to me, if in that was in that situation, I'd be like, kill them fucking all. Yeah. You know? It's it's it's those things like, what did my mother have that this fucking woman did? You know? What did my mother miss that this fucking woman has that made you beat my mom and go to her? I'd be like,

41:14Oti: mate, at that point, was like, I understand Rufus. I'm not angry at him. I understand his fucking journey, and good for you.

41:24KT: And kill them all. And kill them all. Essentially.

41:27Oti: I would've I would've been mad if if he turned up and shot Nat in the face. I'll be like, you know what? Sounds about right. Redwood needs to fucking survive somehow. He had it coming. Yep.

41:38KT: Well, it's it it kind of felt very like Christopher Nolan, Batman. Like, Rufus Buck was the villain they all needed. They all needed to channel their hate and they did it in Rufus' and Rufus was more than happy to be that martyr. To be that symbol of pain. He's the OG Candyman.

41:57Oti: Exactly. Rufus is fucking Candyman in this. Down by his brother? Yeah. There you go.

42:05KT: But yeah. I like that we spent a lot of time on them because they really were the foundation on which this film was built. And I was absolutely loving this film until we got to that point. And again, I think it's more me as a viewer as opposed to the writing. But I feel like, like if you're good enough, you'll fight. You know how it's like, you have some singers that are like real from the diaphragm

42:34KT: singing the pain of ancestors singing. All you need to do is stand up on the stage, even though Mary J. Blige likes to do her dancing. Right? But then you have performers that don't they're not very well versed in singing, but they can give a whole package. So they do back flips, they have costumes, and that sort of thing. That's how I kinda feel about, like, filmmaking and also screenwriting. If you have what it takes, it can be very simplistic and it can work very well and it can hit you

43:05KT: in ways that resonate emotionally without having to do the theatrics. And that's kind of what, I guess, why qualm is because were capable and Jeymes proved that he was very capable on having characters that you do care about, not necessarily rooting for because they were all great and you wanted to enjoy them without having that mustache twirling daytime soap opera,

43:32KT: I have been your sibling all along. Like, I don't think they needed to have that. And that's part of my it's just like believe in yourself, bro. You got this. Yeah. And I think the the things that I thought when you mentioned to me that there was no sort of nudity in this movie

43:48Oti: Yo. Yo. Yo. Shout outs to Colby because he's the one that pointed that out. I didn't even notice there was no nudity until he mentioned it. Because to tell you, you can enjoy stuff without fucking seeing flesh, and you can create sensual things without having to see Basic Instinct vaginas.

44:03Oti: It's it's

44:05KT: That's a very that's a very niche subcategory, Oti.

44:11Oti: But the the thing is with these kind of movies, we get to hear the n word a lot, you know, and it reminded me that in this movie, we've there was no mention of it. There wasn't. I think the closest equivalent to the n word was not even that. It was the white bank teller laughing at Cuffee.

44:28KT: Yeah. Like, you know what? I was like, oh, man, if this was fucking Tarantino, I would have had it about a million times in this movie. And shout outs to us for getting this far for not mentioning because there's a lot of comparisons. There's a lot of like, this conversation can't be had unfortunately without Tarantino. Because I think for a long time, he was kind of the go to, even though it was a bastardized Western, that was kind of the modern sort of reference. Right?

44:57Oti: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, well, he he just created a vibe in this. Well, shout out to Roy Wood Jr. giving accolades to Leonardo DiCaprio.

45:08KT: White white allyship also includes white racist or what white actors playing racist characters in slave movies. Yep. Let's spend our time since we are in the holy year of Regina King, every year is the holy year of Regina King, mind you. Let's talk about treacherous Trudy because she really holds her own in this film. It did feel like she had a complex because more than one character would ask her where her boss was. And she did she did take issue with it. It's like you are strong,

45:44KT: but you also need to acknowledge that unfortunately you do report to someone. And I don't know if they're teasing a Buck sequel. Is a fucking gang leader. Yeah. You're the Rufus Buck gang. Therefore, you are not the first and only voice. But one of the best sort of scenes, I guess when people talk about iconic scenes in cinema, obviously they're talking about Daniel Kaluuya, Hallelujah in Get Out with a teacup scene. I think in the same conversation, we should be talking about treacherous Trudy and an apple peeling scene.

46:17Oti: Because that was cutting, if you'll pardon the pun. Especially the the story she was telling as well when doing that. I think it gave us a window into the character that's Trudy Smith. Mhmm. Something that was so I wanted to understand exactly why she was like that. And I think that opened a little bit glimpse into, oh,

46:40Oti: she's been through some shit. And I think the fact that she hasn't been killed off and she's standing there with a bloody heart at the end of it Yeah. Is the best thing that could have happened for a potential sequel because

46:40KT: Usually, that sort of thing pisses me off. Like,

46:56KT: was it Batman versus Superman where they had the murmurings of Superman being alive?

47:02Oti: Oh, literally the sand coming up from the bloody casket. Yeah.

47:07KT: Like usually it bothers me when they try and like tug us that there's gonna be a sequel. Usually that bothers me, but I really enjoyed it. And I guess also, sorry, my love, before you continue, they did very well to, without it being so obvious to draw the visual between Trudy and her hat. It was done so subconsciously that it was very obvious you knew that that was Trudy.

47:30Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every shot, every scene that Trudy, even when she wasn't wearing her hat, would get a glimpse of her hat before it focused on her face. Yeah. You know, such things. And and by the end of it, you see Trudy with a hat, and you're like, oh, man. I cannot wait for this sequel to happen because we still have an exciting character remaining

47:54Oti: from Rufus' crew. Yep. And she has a bone to pick. Yeah. I still don't understand how Zazie beat her, but, you know, we'll call it fair. Whatever. Yeah. Slipping under the rack.

47:54KT: I kinda don't

48:07KT: kinda don't believe that as well. And, you know, Regina King is very talented, not just acting also behind the screen. One Night in Miami, which is famously on Patreon because of how fiery Oti and I get discussing that film. I just didn't believe that Trudy could be bested because it was Regina King. I just couldn't believe it. But I think the classic rule in any horror film, unless you see them die on the screen, they're not dead. And even if they die on one of people's favorite Halloween,

48:42Oti: doesn't mean fucking shit because in the next movie Resurrection of capitalism,

48:46KT: motherfuckers. Yep. So no one's ever truly fucking dead. No. No one's ever truly fucking dead. And and that can be in a legendary sense. It could also be based on money. Mhmm. Mhmm. Coins.

49:02Oti: Shillings.

49:04KT: Shillings, yes, absolutely. But that story that Trudy told, it was very chilling and it absolutely made sense. Like I think for the most part, they did a very beautiful job outlaying that Trudy was a ruthless motherfucker. Like it was very clear that she would do what needed to be done in regards to hard and terrible, unspeakable sort of violence. Yeah. So we didn't necessarily need a backstory, but the way she just nonchalantly peeled that apple talking about, you know, vengeance as well. She had her own little revenge plot

49:45KT: through the way your story and how she went after that girl. Also, can we also talk about how her dad beat her because she didn't protect her sister? And it wasn't until the dad went there and she was I think I'm pretty sure she died. Right? Yeah. She was bleeding all over. The family were there. They were wailing. They were crying. So what did you want, sir? You beat Trudy up because she didn't defend her sister and she actually killed the bully.

50:12Oti: There's a lie. Then you got scared.

50:14KT: It was some it was some Chucky shit. It was some Chucky But Chucky said, murder is fun for the whole family.

50:23Oti: You have to understand, like, that follows crap through and through. No doubt about it. But imagine going there thinking that your kid didn't do anything Yeah. And finding out that the kid took a look. You'll be next.

50:36KT: You'll be next. But it definitely paints a picture and you just wanna learn more about Trudy as well. So I definitely enjoyed that facet of the story. But what I really enjoyed, especially watching it the first time with you, was every time Trudy said or did something, I would ask you, was it Huey or Riley? Most of it was Riley up until the the the heart revealing scenes where Huey showed up. Only between Rufus. Only between. Yep. Nowhere else. Mhmm. I feel like and I don't think it's a surprise.

51:09KT: And in that sense, I also don't think it's controversial. I don't think Rufus saw Trudy as an equal because she was a woman.

51:09Oti: I don't buy that.

51:09KT: Retorted the man.

51:21Oti: So we get a scene where Trudy goes to Rufus and say and says, why didn't you leave this place to me? And what the fuck, Wiley? Yeah. And he goes and says, because I needed my crew to be together. At the of the day, I saw you as the person who could do that job. That's what he said, but is that the truth? I believe that shit.

51:21KT: Said the man. What in my character makes you think I will allow that? You wanna fix your mouth and say that again? What in my

51:58KT: far out, man. Sleep with one eye open, Betsy.

52:03Oti: I but I I I believed him. I I took his word for it. I think at the end of the day, he saw Wiley. He knew he knew Wiley had drafted him out in the first place. But I think with the benefit of him being loyal and him being them being friends for such a long time, I think even before Trudy had come into the picture, played a big part in that. I think there needs to be like, if you're loyal only, you're fucking Elphie Altice. But if you're loyal and you have skill, I think that's where you're least likely to betray your leader. Or what do you think?

52:34KT: No. I think if you're loyal and you have skills, you'll be thinking of the top spot for yourself. But shout outs to Deon Cole. I'm glad that he was in this film. And it makes me sad that, like, people might have just been introduced to him because of this film.

52:48Oti: No. He he did well. He did really well in this, I think. I think this is one of the first scenes where I thought, oh, fuck, man. Deon can fucking act, He's got chops. He's definitely got chops.

53:00KT: And I guess while we're here, what I also appreciate about Jeymes Samuel and the team behind this film is there are a lot of successful black actors that are working right now in Hollywood and kind of what we see through TV shows and films, they're the same people that get cast in shit. Right? So I'm kind of I kind of really appreciate that this film has, you know, the hot tasty, you know, Hollywood players now, but it's also acknowledging that there is a rich tapestry of black Hollywood that have been casted into this, like Deon Cole, for example,

53:37KT: and even Damon Wayans Jr. as well. And also credit to Edi Gathegi because he needs to be casted in every fucking thing.

53:46Oti: You know, the most interesting bit obvious was the Jim Beckwourth of it all. Let's talk about the Beckwourth of it all. Yeah. So he's he's a showboater. Oh, yeah. And He's the one that does a five minute routine after a touchdown. Yeah. He's a he's a he's a guy that'll go and flip his gun and do all the karate moves or whatever stances before Indiana Jones just stands up and shush him shush him to your face. You know? Like, mate, there's places and times for things. Chirrup Boating. And he kept on being warned throughout

54:19Oti: and even to the point where he met Cherokee Bill. Cherokee was like, mate, there's there's a difference between quick draw and and and living and dying.

54:19KT: I take qualm with Cherokee Bill.

54:19Oti: But he he fucking told him.

54:19KT: Okay. Well, let's talk about it. It's not a bad writing

54:34KT: sort of thing, but when when there is good writing in particular, there's usually an importance placed on a character, especially if they're like carefree and they're very playful. And we clocked it very early. The first time we watched this film, we're like, this motherfucker's gonna die.

54:51Oti: It's very fucking obvious.

54:53KT: It was true. And it's not because the writing was bad. It was actually the contrary. The writing was so good because they wanted you to care about this kid, but it also made you very clear that he was very careless in the way that he was very showboady. So, yeah, we knew that this guy was gonna die. It was very obvious. What I wasn't prepared for was how fucking dirty Cherokee Bill played. And maybe I still haven't recovered from Judas and the Black Messiah because I kept calling him Bill O'Neal watching this film.

55:25Oti: No. I think I I distanced myself from Bill O'Neal after the fucking movie ended. With this, we we we got to see Cherokee Bill in a couple of duels before that, where he fucking just went daddy all the time. And the way he talked about winning and staying alive, was like, survival is everything that I need to do. I don't fucking care about the any rules that you might have in your fucking head that I need to follow. Because think all that means shit.

55:48KT: I think that's where legend and reality diverge. Right? Because he survives everything. That's the truth. But the myth is that he's such a quick draw. He's so skillful. He's so talented. You said he was, which we'll come to in a second. But the fact that he survives isn't necessarily because he's skillful because how many times we've seen him play so fucking dirty. So this is where we're gonna get to. And I personally wouldn't recommend Yasuke.

56:19KT: But if you do, good for you, but don't come and fight me in our DMs because I didn't recommend it. But with Cherokee Bill, I was trying to at first, I thought it was kind of like Saitama, like in One Punch Man or in just in the anime in general, you have a super, super powerful character, like even Goku, for example, for all of the basic anime lovers. But you have a very strong

56:45KT: character in an anime and they're just bored with fighting because they're so good. At first, that's what I thought. But nearing the end of our first watch, it started to dawn on me that he's not necessarily talented. He just plays dirty. And while people are trying to uphold a basic level of respect, he doesn't fucking care. He's like Kanad all growing up from The Wire.

57:08KT: I'm not gonna if you've never watched The Wire, that's not gonna be a spoiler because I also didn't mention the character. But he plays fucking dirty. There are rules to the game. Like in The Wire, you don't go shooting other crews on a Sunday, especially when they're taking out their grandma. Like, there are certain rules to the game, but Cherokee Bill doesn't respect that. I don't think he was that talented.

57:08Oti: I think he was talented. You're just confusing

57:32Oti: talent with the fucking will to survive with the most minimal of effort.

57:32KT: The will to survive is a talent, but I'm saying the fact people are saying like he's the fastest drawer around. I'm disputing that fact.

57:32Oti: I think he was. I think he was. And when he does face Cuffee, we see Cuffee retort,

57:51Oti: Beckwourth was faster than you. May, you said you're faster than Beckwourth. So I I that scene didn't make any sense. It felt really anime to me how she she was the one who was super emotional when we have our Stagecoach Mary. She knew all these guys longer than probably Cuffee. Yeah. But man, Cuffee cried, bawled her heart out.

58:13KT: I think Actually, now we're best friend. Now we're now we're thinking of it. I didn't yeah. I didn't think of that until now because it didn't even seem like they had a lot of bonding moments. There was only this potential homophobic, and I will I will put down my gavel where it's deserved, so I'm not gonna go too hard. But there was a pseudo homophobic section with the

58:35Oti: Nat Love didn't even fucking respond like that. Like this, she went all the way there. Like too much. Like me, come on. Know not like for two days tops.

58:46KT: Man, this is the Maysville bank, please settle down. Wow. No. I I get that. I definitely agree. How did you feel about Stagecoach Mary? Is there anything you wanna say about her?

58:46Oti: She was a bit dumb. She was a bit dumb rolling into Redwood.

59:01Oti: Thought she was smarter than everyone else.

59:04KT: But the stench of her associations was so clear. At first, I thought it was like a secret that Stagecoach Mary and Nat Love were together. At first, thought it was a secret. And then when I realized it was known knowledge that they were in cahoots and tumbling in the hay together, why the fuck are you in Redwood then? People know that you were together. Whether he's physically there or not, you still have Avatar tentacles tethered onto you. Yeah. It's it's weird,

59:33KT: man. It's weird. She's dumb. Like for someone that was very smart, she was very dumb in that moment. Maybe it was a way to like move the story along, but that didn't make any sense to me. Yeah. It didn't. She was dead on arrival. All the music, again, the music. There's a Family Guy reference, which early really makes Family Guy relevant anymore where they talk about Succession, go and check out our episode on Succession. And it's essentially just saying the names of characters of Succession.

60:09Oti: Rome.

60:10KT: Oh, Rome. Shiv. Shiv. And the instinctual from Oti just now, it felt very much tethered to the reference if you're nasty. Anything else you wanna say Oti before we finish up?

60:10Oti: My man, Gathegi.

60:30Oti: In this movie, he would like to be known as Bill Pickett. He's the dead shot of this crew. He's he's amazing, I think. He he he's not as silly

60:41Oti: or as as childish as Beckwourth, but all he brings is a bit of maturity. He he is someone who he can rely on. And we get to see his skills over and over again. Mhmm. And I just loved him through and through, man. I loved him. And it was quite funny that the guy with the calluses on his fucking eye not calluses. Calluses in the hands. Right? Cataracts.

61:04KT: You got cataracts in your hands? That's some Deidra.

61:09Oti: Naruto. A part of Rufus Buck's crew, they had this guy. He seemed like he couldn't see properly. Yeah. And he was their sniper. I'm like

61:19KT: They were short on labor.

61:23Oti: Well, I'm like, woah. But wow. I I think Bill Pickett. It's sad that he was killed. Hopefully, they can revive him somehow in the in the sequel, like the bullet hit another coin, multiple coins.

61:37KT: Okay. Well, let's talk about it. I didn't get, like, teary. I didn't I didn't get super emotional in this film, but there were a couple of moments that I I felt very deeply. And it was with Bill Pickett's character where, you know, Cuffee was asking, are you okay? When she was reloading her gun and Bill's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just got like a scratch on my shoulder, I'll be fine. And then, like you said, he dives into his pocket, he grabs the coin and he realized just how lucky he is, how fragile

62:11KT: the human form is. And just as he kisses that coin, Bill O'Neal. Bill O'Neal bang. Cherokee Bill. Cherokee Bill O'Neal. But that, like, that fucking pissed me off. And then Cherokee Bill's like, don't do that. Oh, no. And then he he recited a Cherokee phrase to the effect of it will sour you in the afterlife if you don't accept a peace. I'm like, fuck off. Fuck off. Because because really, you didn't seem to care with Beckwourth because you talked about the showboating.

62:43Oti: Our Bill Pickett didn't need to die. I felt like it was all the always expendable just because of the close bond with Stagecoach Mary. I knew Nat wasn't gonna die. Yeah. So I just knew it was gonna be either all three of them. Mhmm. Because I kept on telling us, you're not coming back from this. You're not coming, bro. Of course, not everyone was gonna come back from this. True. So it made sense. It's it's good that they didn't kill Lindo Bass Reeves character.

63:13KT: Bass Reeves, he sounds like he would be best friends with Bokeem Woodbine. And a jazz bar smoking a cigar or something. And I guess we haven't even made the connection between Delroy Lindo and Jonathan Majors in this film reuniting after Da 5 Bloods. Go and check out Da 5 Bloods episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But did you think that Bass Reeves was gonna die?

63:13Oti: I didn't think so. No. He only showed up when people had already sort of

63:13KT: Well, we like you're talking about foreshadowing, he did say

63:43KT: to Cuffee as well as Beckwourth, you guys are gonna die. He did. He just got to die. I like that we're finishing off with Bill Pickett and given frame of reference as we like to talk about it is very apt, isn't it, Oti? I don't think we gave a lot of attention to, and I don't wanna spend a lot of time, but I do wanna mention, I really love the dialogue in this film. It was easily consumable and it is memorable and I do believe it will become legendary.

64:14KT: Because we had only, like we had only watched it a couple of days apart, but we've only watched it two times. And the second time we're watching it, I was reciting the lines from the first time that we watched it. And it was without, it was the anti Breaking Bad. I always talk about Breaking Bad. Welcome if this is the first time you've heard a rant about Breaking Bad, but it was like Breaking Bad, Vince Gilligan,

64:35KT: like they were so conscious that it was going to become such a big show and it needed to have quotable quotes.

64:41Oti: I am the man who knocks. Yeah.

64:44KT: Yeah. That's science. Up your ass. Wow. No. But it's like you you you have mediums that are so conscious of the fact that they're gonna become part of the tapestry of pop culture. But I felt like the dialogue was very easy here. And while it is memorable, it doesn't feel forced either. Or, you know, even one of the off the top of my head when he kills the scorpion guy and he talks to the priest, he's like, take this body, you'll get it for 5 k. And he's like, why

65:14KT: don't you do it yourself? And he said I'm worth 10. There you go. Just like The-Dream, shawty, Nat Love is a 10. Okay. And then you also have Stagecoach Mary talking about how a gun doesn't talk. Like, there's so many lovely, delicious, palatable, tasty lines of dialogue that I really appreciate in this film. Friends and lovers, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. I would personally like to know, reach out private message or otherwise On how you land in regards to black cinema, do you feel like

65:55KT: you can rate it as it is because that's how it should be rated? Or do you have broader considerations for what it would mean to cinema and how it could potentially stifle opportunities if you were to rate it fairly? If you would like to know, I guess skip ahead to the future in our Christmas special, so Oti can succinctly not answer that question. We're gonna finish up in a segment we call For Your Reference.

66:23KT: Oti.

66:23Oti: I wanna know more about Jeymes Samuel. So I'm gonna reference something that I've not watched because I also wanna watch it. Yep. It's more of a homework

66:33Oti: and They Die by Dawn.

66:33KT: Nice. I guess we'll report back in a Patreon equivalent.

66:33Oti: What about you?

66:33KT: I will reference as deserves more attention, Belly.

66:33Oti: Problematic characters to boot.

66:33KT: Well, we wouldn't have any films otherwise.

66:54Oti: Fair enough.

66:55KT: If you would like to see us before we get canceled on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on whoever dies first podcast, if you like to leave a you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.