Snowfall – Saint that the truth!

Full transcript of Snowfall – Saint that the truth!.

0:00KT: Thank you kindly for coming back to the For Your Reference podcast. Black lives still matter. Also another tribute to John Singleton. We literally just did Baby Boy not so long ago. This is our new segment that we are workshopping called Unguess Me. Are you ready Oti? Mhmm. Now without any spoilers, I tried to think of a good topic. So on the count of three, I am going to guess who you would say has had the best character development in Snowfall. Are you ready? Yep. Three, two, one. Leon. Leon. Yeah.

0:39KT: What what? Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. Got your host, KT.

0:39Oti: And Oti.

0:39KT: And keep an eye on your faithful crew, but be wary of handsy real estate agents. This week, we are diving into or feeling the effects of Snowfall.

1:24Oti: Oh, sure.

1:26KT: Delightful effects show. And we recently did Baby Boy not so long ago, Oti. Yeah. Seems like we're a Singleton podcast. We are a Singleton podcast aside from La Casa de Papel. So let's quickly get into the stats. So this series premiered in 2017. It's currently sitting at three seasons. Okay. With the pandemic that is going on right now, they they did start filming, but we're not really sure

1:55KT: when we are going to, first of all, get an episode of season four and also when the full sort of season is going to finish. Mhmm. And we've always if you've listened to quite a lot of our episodes, we do want to cover this. So we're glad that we can cover this at this time. During a pandemic, we're talking about pre crack cocaine epidemic. So all of the demics going on, maybe an Otidemic while we're

2:20Oti: It's the best kind.

2:24KT: Oh my. So super, rest in love, John Singleton, also credited as the creators on IMDb. We have Dave Andron as well as Eric Amadio. And with the stars, the stars Oti. Look at the stars. Yikes. Do we do we need to do we need to pay for that now? Damson Idris is on my trophy case of fucking stans.

2:50Oti: Yeah. He's in he's in your up and coming. He's

2:53KT: he's in my up and coming right along with Daniel Kaluuya, Steven Yeun. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Damson is a fucking legend already. Oh, legend. Calm down. I know you I know you fucking assholes are like, don't call things that just came out masterpieces. Don't call them legends where you can suck my dick. I am saying that Damson Idris is a fucking legend and, oh, he brings so much quality. I am so glad we came across the show because it was our first introduction and we also saw him in Smithereens. Black Mirror.

3:26KT: Yeah. For those that are educated. We also have Carter Hudson, Isaiah John, Amin Joseph, and obviously, obviously, obviously, gotta give accolades where accolades are due. Michael Hyatt. Woo hoo. Woo hoo. Tap, tap, tap. Mhmm. That's a You reference. D'Angelo's mama. But there you go. That is the quick sort of snapshot that we have for Snowfall. Let's dive into first impressions. Thank you so much for tuning in to the For Your Reference podcast. We take kindly to your kind around here, whether it's your first time or many of the times.

4:02KT: This is where we dive into, I guess in general, of first impressions about the actors, about John Singleton, we've kind of already done that already and just how you felt overall watching this and actually diving into that Oti, we watched this together for the first time. Right? We did. Oti has a habit of just watching shows, which is great, but I feel like you should have some pride. Because you hold me back. You hold me back.

4:31Oti: What Watch has got a flat sometimes. Tune in to the Oti only podcast.

4:37KT: So yeah. So this is the first time. So we we actually got to experience all the love and all the splooshes together with Snowfall. So what are your first impressions about this show?

4:47Oti: So it took us a while to dive into Snowfall. We'd watch we started watching it as soon as the first season finished airing. Mhmm. And I heard that there was a new John Singleton show. Alright.

5:00KT: Let's give Oti some time to pull both of his glasses up, his monocles.

5:06Oti: I heard there was a John Singleton show. And at the time, I was like, yeah. Let me leave it for the back burner. We were watching a lot of things at the time. Uh-huh. And then I think it reached a point where we had nothing to watch. It sounds bad as if we were Snowfall is not a quality show or anything like that. It's just the way we consume things. But I think it's normal. You go where the most popular

5:31Oti: sort of accolades are. Right? And and weirdly enough, there wasn't a lot of buzz around Snowfall. Actually, yeah. Especially not not within my circles. So And we love your circles. KT's circles. And once we started watching it, I think we fell in love with it almost immediately. It was so clearly John Singleton's baby, and you could see it Yeah. From the get off. Mhmm. And remember when you're talking about Baby Boy and how he has a thing. And with Snowfall, he just he tells the story so well. Oh, yes.

6:06Oti: He he he shows the struggles of of how crack cocaine did to the black community. And once you step going down that rabbit hole and all the things that are getting involved with the involvement of the government and the agents and it was just

6:24Oti: It all precipitates down. Yeah. And I couldn't have enough of it. I couldn't have enough of it. And the good thing about watching it after the season one had ended was there was such a short time we had to wait for season two. Yes. That that that's actually the best thing to do. Yeah. Like, Netflix knew what it was doing with its model of releasing a whole fucking season over a weekend. And

6:46Oti: we had such a short time to wait for the second season, which we watched on a weekly basis. Yeah. And it just went it just got stronger and stronger.

6:56KT: And you know what the interesting thing is? It was originally supposed to be a Showtime TV show. But after the pass on it? Yeah. After the pilot was made, they're like, nah, bro. Like, what the fuck? Shame on that. Yeah. So they reshot it. They got the show runner in and they might have possibly got in different actors. There's

7:14KT: we are very learned in the For Your Reference podcast, but we don't go beyond IMDb trivia. So if anyone wants to give us further insights, but essentially they got some different actors. I'm not sure how core to the cast they were, but they reshot it and, you know, they got picked up off FX.

7:30Oti: Nice.

7:31KT: FX is fucking great though. Oh, yeah. And it definitely deserves all of the accolades. Is there anything else you wanted to say about Snowfall? No. Or about the actors in general?

7:42Oti: I love Damson Idris. You could see his range. He is fucking quality. You could really see his range. Yes. And and I think one of the things people don't realize is once you see him acting in in Snowfall, you think there's there's no bar high enough for him to outdo himself. Yeah. And then we watch Black Mirror. Smithereens. Smithereens episode and bloody hell. It was refreshing as well because his But you could see just there's there's something. He's just got it. He's got a ex.

8:13KT: Oh my. One more time Oti for my tingle places.

8:17Oti: Well, have a port record, so probably not.

8:17KT: Damn, dog. Well,

8:23KT: I'll take it where I can get it. I'll tell you that much. Okay. So my first impressions. The only the only sort of semblances I have for understanding the crack cocaine epidemic is through music, I e through Tupac and also through Kendrick Lamar. Again, I'm not African American. I'm not black, so I don't understand that specific frame of reference. But, you know, you watch documentaries, you listen to music and that's kind of, you know, where you understand the crack cocaine sort of epidemic. But it was interesting to watch Snowfall as a creative entity

9:01KT: and see right before it happens. Right? Not necessarily for Franklin, but the philosophical sort of inner conflict of, yeah, I can get super money from getting this, but is this the best for my community? Yeah. And that was an interesting sort of theme, which I hope we can continue to discuss off on. But I fucking love this show. I really enjoy this show.

9:26KT: And, you know, there's there's super popular shows that obviously you can just, you know, recommend to people. But this is the sort of show where you kinda do puff your chest a bit, and you do kinda feel a bit proud that you know Snowfall and you're recommending it to someone. Because you know once someone takes your recommendation to watch or your reference to watch Snowfall, you know they're going to enjoy it and you're gonna be credited for that potential splooshes.

9:52Oti: Oh, for sure.

9:52KT: It's fucking great. I also wanna give a shout out to Amin Joseph who plays Jerome because I most recently rewatched Awkward Black Girl and he is in there. For like one episode. We also talked about Michael being D'Angelo's mom in The Wire. Super quality cast. I also appreciated that I might not have seen the cast in other things,

10:15KT: but it it didn't even matter because they played well. They were casted well, and they really embodied the characters that we had in the story. And it was nice to see, you know, characters that we love in Snowfall continue to go on and be great and continue to be in our screens and in our hearts. Isaiah John who plays Leon was most recently in that Netflix All Day and a Night as well. Yeah. So, you know, onwards and upwards friends and lovers.

10:46KT: So that's our first impression. So let's dive into the show that is Snowfall. There's quite a lot of characters. There are quite a lot of themes that do get explored in this show. And I think that will naturally come up as we talk about characters. And obviously, most suitably, we are going to start off with Franklin. Franklin, the way he got his name was from Charlie Brown. Oh, really? It was the only black character in the comic, and his last name was added to be ironic. So Franklin Saint. I

11:22KT: thought he was named Franklin Saint for You Got Served. We're doing this for you, Saint.

11:28Oti: Man, the amount of times you referenced You Got Served on this podcast.

11:32KT: We need to cover You Got Served. You think we're talking about West Side Story or some shit. Jesus.

11:32Oti: Mate, that was probably was that not your first introduction to Jhené Aiko though?

11:32KT: True. True. And I've not looked back. And you've not looked neither neither has anybody. But let's talk about it. Let's talk about Franklin as a character, as the protagonist of this show. You can talk about it from a writing point of view, as a audience point of view, however you want. But let's talk about Franklin.

12:03Oti: Woo hoo. So Franklin is, well, the protagonist.

12:09KT: And Nice. Thank you for listening, guys. We'll see you next week.

12:13Oti: We get to see the sort of storyline, at least what John Singleton's wants wants to portray in the in the show through Franklin and through the struggles of him being in a community where he really didn't he was supposed to go off to college in this environment he really didn't feel comfortable with. And then incomes or at least I don't think the parents could afford that. And then we see him sort of deal with the struggles and trying to figure out how he could elevate himself,

12:42Oti: but crime or anything illegal wasn't really in the picture, at least for his mother. Mhmm. Franklin's mom was so against it, and especially when it came to dealing with Jerome as well. We know Jerome sold weed, and he had he didn't want Franklin anywhere near that. Mhmm. So it's just interesting to see him progress and sort of Breaking Bad of sorts.

12:42KT: Vomit.

12:42Oti: It's true. This is a this is this is a Breaking Bad story of Franklin Saint

13:11KT: Okay. Well, this is the only Breaking Bad I will acknowledge in the For Your Reference household.

13:16Oti: But we see him sort of learn the ropes of how he could not only be slinging drugs or whatever. He doesn't want to do the corners like everyone else. He wants to build an empire. And that's through the interactions he had with other characters, Avi and and and even Teddy. Yeah. Everyone can do it on the streets, but to be successful and to be untouchable because of just how powerful you are, that's a different story.

13:16KT: And I think the interesting thing about Franklin as a protagonist,

13:46KT: when you saw you know, there are some people that you have in or surrounding proximity of your life and you just look at them and you know they're going to get somewhere. Like they're fucking destined for more than the office drone sort of life. Like, they are going to make it in their life. You don't know how, but you know they've got the potential, and then they're not destined just to be what we are. To also very enterprising. Yeah.

13:46Oti: To draw to draw another comparison, it's like dumping a young

14:16Oti: Stringer Bell. Yes. We called him a Stringer Bell so many times. Yes. He is he's if Stringer Bell was to be here and to start by his own resources and devices without being tied to Avon, This is what it would Yes. Because Avon is sort of Leon in this. That was a Wire reference, by the way. No. Reason yeah. We're delving into sort of references inception.

14:40KT: That's what we do, friends and lovers, if you fucking wondered why we got For Your Reference. But the reason why I don't agree with that is because Franklin actually has a very level headed sort of approach to things. When he gets like when he loses his cool, it is to mass effect because Franklin is very calculated

14:59KT: and he he's very level headed and he doesn't allow his anger to control him. So when the anger controls him, which we'll talk about, it's happened quite a few delicious times in this series. Like, you fucking listen. Like, when when Franklin is pissed off, you fucking listen. Right? And Stringer Bell, he he just got frustrated too quickly. I think that was the problem. But let's talk about Franklin. Let's go back to Franklin and Snowfall because we love The Wire, but we have three and a half hours of content

15:28KT: for The Wire. Feel free to check it out. But the thing that I love so much about Franklin is he was so enterprising. Right? Yes. He saw that there was drug selling, but he saw it as a way to enterprise, to even franchise to a further extent. Right? He saw it as a product, a product that he could sell, a product that he could build off on. So he went from weed and then he graduated to cocaine and that's where we meet Avi. And they have a very

15:59KT: interesting meet cute. Yes. I called it a meet cute. Come and fight me, bitches. And then we see through Leon's cousin or yeah. I think it is Leon's cousin where he learns how to cook it. Right? So he's always finding ways to enterprise his business. Right? And he doesn't have that vibrato like Heisenberg from Breaking Bad where he doesn't need to be the face. He doesn't need people to know that he's the smartest guy in the room. And that's what I fucking love about Franklin. He he is poised in every way.

16:33KT: I think a lot of the time when you watch TV shows or you watch movies, sometimes it can be really frustrating when you watch a character and they just seem so perfect. Right? Perfect in the sense that it's not even it doesn't even feel grounded to real life. And I feel like Franklin could have done that in lesser hands with penmanship, in lesser hands of acting of thespianship. But what we have with Franklin is fragmented flaws

17:02KT: within his character. And we start to see that unfold all the way up until season three. Mhmm. And there are so many instances of that, but Franklin as a whole is fucking great. He is one of the best protagonists I've ever seen in a TV show because he fucks up. But you know what? He is going to find a way to regain that tenfold. It's not that there aren't obstacles in front of him. It's just that he's able to pivot, he is able to anticipate,

17:32KT: and he is able to chess game the fuck out of everyone.

17:36Oti: K.

17:38KT: In the least dick swinging sort of way. And isn't that the textbook definition of the best protagonist in history? Mhmm. So we have a lot of interplays. Franklin is very similar to Oti where he's very intrinsic. Know, he'll be having a lot of thoughts but he won't really verbalize them. Much to the chagrin and much to the frustration of his 2ICs with Leon and also Kevin. So I wanna explore a little bit about that.

18:12Oti: That's just more geared towards how fundamentally different they were as people. Okay. Leon and Kevin are both from the street. They have this street mentality where what's wrong with just slinging dope? What's wrong with just being that? Mhmm. You know? What's this all he wants to be an enterprise? He wants to be entrepreneurial? They don't they weren't in for that. And as much as Leon was Franklin's boy Yeah. He still he was still street level. He was

18:44Oti: this is gangster shit. Yeah. Let's just kill these people and take this street and be done with it. Well, to be fair, Kevin was also like that as well. Yeah. And Kevin was. I'm saying both of them were. Mhmm. So the difference with Franklin is he saw a bigger picture. Yep. And we're just standing on the street wasn't enough because what ten, twenty years from now Yeah. You don't want to be doing the same shit, do you? No. There has to be an exit strategy and Franklin was driving towards that fast. Oh, absolutely.

19:14Oti: Had Is either foreign you onboard or you just out of the car?

19:16KT: Yeah. He had foreign accounts. It was all fucking happening. And I guess before we get too deep into it, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. I don't think we've ever done a non spoiler review, have we Oti? No. Because what's the point? We know Oti is the Edgelord but when it comes to spoilers, it's all splooshes blazing. And the reason why I wanted to say that is because I wanna further explore Kevin and also Leon. I said spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. And

19:49KT: as much as we fucking love you guys listening to our episodes, it actually hurts me when you listen to episodes you haven't seen because a lot of the episodes we cover, we actually love the shows, this Snowfall in particular. So please stop listening if you haven't watched it because I'm going to spoil a big plot point that we have in season two. Are you ready, Oti?

19:49Oti: I'm ready.

19:49KT: Have you done your homework?

19:49Oti: Spoil me. Spoil me, mate.

19:49KT: If you're nasty. At the end of season two, we come to quite a crescendo

20:22KT: in the series and something that will define not only Franklin, but Leon and a lot of the other characters in this series where Franklin is given an ultimatum, where he needs to make a decision. And it is something that has really challenged him. A lot of the time throughout the series, Franklin will do things very methodically, very logically, it's the best thing, it's what needs to be done. But he came at a crossroads where he decided whether he needed you know, safeguard his livelihood or protect his friend.

20:59KT: And we see that come to a crescendo in season two where he needs to and he decides to shoot Kevin. Yep. I also appreciate that Kevin, unfortunately, but he did die. You know, sometimes especially like in a season finale that happens and then you'll see them pop up like five episodes later. But who knows? Maybe in season four. But this was a big moral conundrum for Franklin. He was always at the helm of what needed to be done, what had to be done, and he did the needful.

21:39Oti: Yeah. And this is solely where I think he was if he was tethering on the precipice of whether or not he was a bad guy, this is what made him cross that line to the territory of, okay, there's no coming back from this shit. Yeah. You're officially a body of the street.

21:56KT: Yeah. And I think, but then also at the same time, it's probably very freeing for him because that's one of the last ties that he would have. You know, the qualms of whether he would or whether he wouldn't. But at the same time, throughout the first and second season, Kevin was really pushing it. So let's talk about the differences, like the differences between Kevin

22:17KT: and Leon. So both of them are very similar. Like you said, they didn't have ambitions beyond the street. Like, they had a stack of cash and they were happy with that. Right? They would keep doing what they needed to do to get that stack of cash Yeah. But they weren't looking to disappear when they were 50. Like, they'll probably still be doing that shit. Right? Leon had his vices and you also see that through Wanda. And she becomes a big fucking plot point in season three. Right? But Leon has his vices, but he also

22:48KT: can follow orders. He can also be reasoned to. And I think that's the difference between Leon and also Kevin. Because Kevin, the same thing, he saw the life that he needed to have to make the money and they both indulge in the lifestyle. That was very clear. And that's fine. But Franklin wanted to stay focused. So he didn't indulge in the lifestyle as much as he probably could have like his cohorts. Right? But Kevin, I think Kevin was just like

23:20KT: a Kelly in Destiny's Child. Like, he wasn't happy being the 2IC. He wanted to be Franklin Saint.

23:26Oti: I don't think that reference lands though because to me, Kelly was the lead of our group.

23:26KT: Yikes. Mega yikes. Jim Kelly over here.

23:39KT: Watch out for Oti's pink lemonade homecoming tour coming out soon. That was cute. I appreciate it. You're welcome. That was very cute. But you know what I mean? Like, I don't think Kevin was happy being because I think he kinda saw himself as a like a lap dog. You know what I mean?

24:00Oti: Yeah. I I see that. But then he was struggling with the fact that Franklin wasn't doing anything to avenge. Yeah. But you can't keep doing that shit. Yeah. And and this is the case. So he was happy to go to the park and try and kill his people where there were kids in the park and shit. Come on.

24:18KT: At that point, whether you had an enterprise that you were working on, there are fucking civilians there. And may I quote Omar from The Wire, man gotta have a code. Mhmm. You don't get civilians up in that shit. We know how that ended up for Omar, didn't we? So

24:36Oti: Yikes. I'm just saying, from a street level or at least from Kevin's perspective, he saw that he had to avenge.

24:45KT: Mhmm.

24:46Oti: And Franklin, quite frankly, was just sitting there. But it's tit for tat. Like, he's just going to keep fighting he with you. Thought this Franklin was happy to just take the money and not do anything about avenging his Okay.

24:59KT: So I guess if you're if you're in it, if you're amongst it, it's hard to be objective. But Franklin had ambitions beyond that. And where does it end? It's just gonna be tit for tat all over. Right? So like, I get what Kevin was saying, but also at the same time, where does it fucking end? And the fact that you're gonna do it in broad daylight, mind you. Where there were cops. Where there were cops, it was essentially a sting. Right? Entrapment, Bodie, that's another Wire reference.

25:31KT: This is gonna be very annoying if people don't like The Wire or if they haven't watched The Wire. But it was interesting. So do you think do you would you have been annoyed if Leon was the one to die and not Kevin?

25:46Oti: No. Because Leon can listen to reason. Leon listens to Franklin.

25:48KT: No. But I'm saying you personally. What if Kevin had survived that shot? Because remember Leon also got shot because he was covering for Franklin, but he survived. How do you think the series would have looked if Leon died and not Kevin?

25:48Oti: Oh, Kevin would have turned on Franklin immediately.

25:48KT: Oh, totally. Oh, without a doubt. He's the fucking Ephialtes. That's a 300 reference. Interesting. I think Kevin served his purpose. I think he was the catalyst for anyone that was questioning whether Franklin was about that enterprising life.

26:26Oti: This answer the

26:28KT: All the doubts are out the window at this point because these are personal ties. Whether he would do that to Jerome or Louie, I guess is a different question because literally blood runs deep there is another story. But it was it was very emotional to see that. And it was also very emotional and it was sad to see the fallout between Franklin and Leon because Leon gets it. Right? He understands that Kevin was out of line, but he also

26:57Oti: They're friends. They're buddies. They grew up together. Yeah. So it's one thing, okay,

27:03KT: I see why you did it, but then again, it doesn't make you right. But I think it also shows that as much as I love you, Isaiah John, it shows that Leon isn't a leader because he would continue to let Kevin keep doing that fucking shit. And Franklin was like, no. This is not we're done. We're done. His crew is in solo But he shouldn't have shot Kevin in the back. That was a bit dodgy to me. Yeah. Like, wasn't expecting a whole soliloquy, but shooting him in the back was a bit unpoetic. But

27:37KT: there you go. So I think Kevin was very important to the story. There are times when you watch a TV show and you know something's going to happen, so you just want it to happen. So I'm glad they didn't drag out Kevin's plot line for too long. Oh, the good thing about Snowfall as well is that it's 10 episodes a season. Yeah. And

27:58Oti: there's no fillers. Like, most of it is all canon, and it just Actually, we haven't talked about the season finale, but yes.

28:08KT: Jesus. I let's I was I said before we recorded this, let's not talk about it until the end because, obviously, we love this show, so we don't wanna start Jesus. Off with that. But don't say there were no fillers because that season three finale was a fucking filler. That was more filler than all of the Naruto fillers we've ever seen in

28:26Oti: Oh, wow. Naruto had like 200 fillers. 60%.

28:32KT: Yeah.

28:34Oti: Wow. Alright.

28:37KT: I guess the other thing that I wanna say about Leon is he has full character development, and it is one of the most delicious characters that I've ever seen in a TV show. Because if you remember in the first season, Leon was very tentative about this shit. Like, was always he was always going to ride for Franklin, but he was always a bit tentative about beating people up or shooting them or even doing worse. Yeah. Right? But then we have

29:06KT: a full circle character development where there's a kid that really looks up to Franklin and Leon and he wants to be a part of the crew. And then Leon initiates him into it. Yeah. Right? Oh, it was such a delightful moment. There is emotional payoff and there is snow fucking fall emotional payoff.

29:26Oti: And Leon is great. Leon is one of my favorite characters ever. It is one of the oh, he is a good character. But I didn't I didn't see it as a cute as a cute sort of moment. I saw it as the cycle continues. He's teaching people how to kill, so it's not cute.

29:41KT: But but I'm just saying it it it's it's in okay. In the most violent of ways, it was very endearing to see Leon take on the role that he has assumed in this world. Yeah. So it's it's nice to have that 2IC. It's nice to have that faithful right hand man in Leon with Franklin because by God, does Franklin need that help. Speaking of help, let's move on to people that have really contributed

30:12KT: to Franklin's success and have definitely had their own plot lines as well. I wanna talk about Jerome and I wanna talk about Louie.

30:20Oti: Oh, and Louie. Well, Jerome, first of all.

30:25KT: I got carried away.

30:30Oti: He's such a solid character in this. He's very likable. His relationship with Franklin, albeit the sort of fact that there's some weirdness between Jerome and Franklin's mom, Cissy Yep. I think it is. But how much respect and fee he sees Franklin as, okay. You don't have to be me. You have a future kid. You know? Yeah. But when Franklin decided to break bad, he was right there with him. Yeah. You know? Okay. I'll you. I'll make sure that you're okay. I'll teach you everything that I know. But then again, Franklin super quickly

31:06Oti: surpassed that and he yeah. You know, but you know what It's a thing where the master

31:13KT: the the student becomes the master. Yeah. We have 60 episodes of me surpassing you. Oh, wow. In every way. It was painful and it was sad to see Jerome grapple with that actuality. Because he's like, yeah, I'll take you under my wing. I'll show you the game. But he was very reluctant, but he started to see that Franklin was going to exceed him, not just in a small sense, but in a catastrophic sort of way. And I think he felt a bit threatened by that.

31:45Oti: I wouldn't say threatened because I think his reservations was more towards the fact that he didn't want to be too big. He was happy just

31:45KT: But being but but also at the same time, Franklin has the ability to scale.

31:45Oti: He has ability to scale, but Jerome was against it just because of the fact that the bigger you are, the more attention you direct to yourself.

32:08KT: Well, the more smarter you have to be, the more strategic you have to be. And

32:14Oti: and the farther you fall as well. So you have to fall. So it's it's it's not all win win. With with with great power comes a million people at your back trying to get that title from you.

32:29KT: And that's that a Kenyan proverb?

32:29Oti: I'm teaching you. I'm dropping proverbs.

32:29KT: Well, you're dropping. I don't know if you're teaching. Oh, wow. No. But it's interesting. And, you know, there are elements where we see Jerome physically abusing Louie, which is very hard to watch. But also at the same time, feel like I love Jerome. So I don't know what that says about us as viewers, about how we just completely discard that. But I wanted to put that out there because it happened. But I really do feel for Jerome in a lot of ways because,

33:05KT: you know, as much as we joke about it, toxic masculinity is a thing. Right? And this happened in the eighties. So he was a man's man. He was pretty much I don't know if you would call him a kingpin, but he was the go to guy in regards to weed in California or at least where they were. Right? So he was used to being on top. And to have Franklin come along, yes, it was out of dutiful brotherhood

33:33KT: with Cissy where he didn't want Franklin to get hurt. But then it got to a point where he was like, oh shit, this kid is gonna soar. Right? So and also when he got shot, remember when the fucking police, stupid Andre Wright came to his house and Jerome got shot and he was injured for a while, he was starting to see the cogs and, you know, the chess pieces come into play. Was he just severely beaten?

33:57Oti: I think they just really battered him. Yeah. And and that's what which is was for Jerome who was like, you know, I'm I'm your man's man. I can't be beaten. I can't be taken down like that. And they just disrespected him all over that floor, And that really hurt him. And that's what catapulted him to making the decision that he wanted to start up his own shop. Something genuine he can fall back on. His shop.

34:22KT: And then he got robbed.

34:24Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Come on, guys. He's just a guy trying to live his life with aunt Cissy. I know.

34:24KT: Aunt Louie. No. Cissy is a sister. That's some incestual shit. Is that another Kenyan book? Not that I'm judging, mate.

34:39KT: Oh my. Oh, but Jerome is fucking delightful, and he's great. And one of my most favorite moments that I reference a lot in the For Your Reference household is Jerome accompanying Franklin to go and see his friend whose dad is a porn director. And they're shooting a a male gay scene. And Jerome was just fucking flabbergasted. He was having a good time looking at all of the porn sets until he stumbled across that room. Oh, it's great. I fucking miss this show so much. Jerome, especially.

35:20KT: Him and that Jheri curl. Would you ever rock a Jheri curl, Oti?

35:24Oti: Oh, yeah.

35:26KT: I don't know if it's because I like looking at Jerome or if it's my thing. I might be into it.

35:26Oti: It might be a It might be a Jerome thing, brother. If I put a Jheri curl right now, you'd run away.

35:26KT: How do you do fellow kids? I think this is the kink. Pretty much. I think this is the kink I will sploosh on. Oh, but Jerome is great.

35:26Oti: Your Pornhub search is Jheri curl.

35:26KT: I don't know a lot, but I know how to clear my searches, man. More, please.

36:03KT: But Jerome is a great character. I think, again, with lesser penmanship, with lesser acting, I think he could become a very one dimensional character. But what we witness in Snowfall along with a lot of the other characters are well rounded, you know, wholly fulfilled characters.

36:23Oti: Oh, especially with a relationship with aunt Louie. What's your thoughts on that?

36:27KT: Oh, this is an interesting one because Louie from what we understand is very sexually fluid. I wouldn't put a label on her, I would just say she's very sexually fluid. She actually drives a lot. If you wanna call someone a plot point, it would probably be Louie. Because all the major sort of arcs that we have in this show, she is somewhere in the background. Oh, If Jerome needed convincing, it was Louie.

36:27Oti: Oh, absolutely.

36:27KT: If it was finding a way to distribute Franklin's crack, it was Louie.

36:56Oti: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. She was she was in the middle of everything. Oh, absolutely.

37:07KT: So if I was to if I were to have qualms, it would be the fact that she's always conveniently in the background for major sort of plot points. But Jerome really loves her. In his fucked up woman beating ways, he actually really does love her.

37:28Oti: Yeah. Which was weird seeing or witnessing when she decided to leave to go to Claudia, was it? Yeah. And then how that made Jerome feel. But he And the fact that he understood and sat there and said, you know, you always have a place here. Yeah.

37:45KT: He turned into that guy in Boyz II Men. I knew about it, baby. But I didn't care. If we could afford it, we would insert it right now.

37:58Oti: Oh, dear.

38:01KT: Is that On Bended Knee? Yeah. Nice. Look at us. We're starting a music podcast. Oh, it it could be like what was it? Sarthespak saying that all the music sounded the same? No. It is Titus in Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Yes. And he ends up singing Titus. He ends up singing I'll Make Love to You at a funeral. Close your eyes.

38:23Oti: Yes.

38:25KT: Oh, that was hilarious. I knew about it, Oti. I just didn't care. Mhmm. Mhmm. But, yeah, Jerome was really channeling, you know, that that sort of Boyz II Men energy because that yeah. You know, we shouldn't, you know, give accolades to men just for doing normal things. But the fact that Jerome was able to swallow his male pride and he was like, I don't fucking care if you're still with Claudia. Please come home. Oh

38:54KT: my god. That broke my heart in all of the pieces. Yeah. I didn't know my heart existed until I saw that scene. But then again, we see Louie fuck it up, and the one person she can call is Jerome. Yeah. Yeah. Because Claudia was she had a power complex about her. She knew that there was an imbalance between her and Louie. She helped Louie with the club. The club was hers essentially. So it wasn't really much different. And I think, you know, we're not really a psychology podcast, but Louie definitely gravitated towards powerful

39:34KT: life companions that unfortunately took advantage of her. Oh, yeah. And Claudia was a woman, but she was no different to Jerome in that aspect specifically. Louie was very interesting. I do like that Louie exists in this series because, you know, in life, you always need that one person. Like, no matter how fucked up you messed up, it doesn't matter. You've always got one person you can call. Definition of a fucking ride or die. Right? And time and time again, Louie was that for Franklin. Not just, you know, not just with connections and networking,

40:12KT: but as an emotional support as well.

40:13Oti: Oh, yeah. You could tell they have a such a a special bond where it it transcends the normal sort of, oh, he's dating my uncle. So, yeah, we have related to some Yeah. They understood each other such a different fundamental level that they're bond. And whenever the Franklin was in trouble, you could see how it affected Louie. And even when Franklin was arrested, that just drove Louie crazy.

40:42KT: Oh, yes. And she hit up her cop friend to help Franklin out as well. She she's got connections everywhere, it seems. Oh, yeah. So we definitely see much of that. But Louie is very integral to the show. Not just from a plot point of view, but emotionally. She was everything that Franklin needed.

41:05Oti: Yeah. And everything that Tasha wasn't. Tasha from Power.

41:12KT: I knew that. I knew that's what you were saying. Just thought I'd put it in there just to to drop my point home. You know what we should do? We should do a For Your Reference bingo. And with like people should have a card and then they cross off the shows that we reference while we're talking about other shit.

41:31Oti: Will we ever cover Power again? No. That that ship has sailed.

41:35KT: I think so. I fucking love Tommy Egan, Joseph Sikora, but not again. Oh, yeah. He was in Ozark, which is nice to see. He was in Ozark. He was also in that movie with Meagan Good and Michael Ealy. Yeah. The Intruder, motherfuckers. Intruder. You thought I wouldn't bring that up? You thought we don't have the daddy Quaid context in the For Your Reference household? Well, you were fucking wrong.

42:01Oti: One of the weirdest thing was seeing Dennis Quaid singing in Goliath.

42:05KT: Actually, yeah. That was such a weird scene. I think this is our quote of references. We've referenced too much in the we should cover Goliath, though. We should cover Goliath. I think the only other Amazon one we've done is The Boys. This is also really cute for you guys to go and listen to the episodes that we've covered. We have done a The Boys, also The Wire, obviously. But let's let's go back. Let's go back to the series. Let's talk a bit about Cissy, Franklin's mom. And I

42:37KT: guess if we have to, let's talk about Alton Saint as well. I said if we have to. We don't have to, but if we have to. No. You can see he's bottling his demons. What happened?

42:51Oti: He's seen shit. He has he's a veteran. He has no support. Of course, he's seen shit that affects his mind. He got into drugs and booze and got homeless. Life got in the fucking way of it. Yes. Life got in the fucking way. And it's hard for people to readjust out there. And I think this is one of the things that I think Singleton was just trying to paint a picture of the kind of veteran life back then. And I'm all for it because I saw Alton as

43:22Oti: someone whose society failed rather than him not being him not being good enough or just being a deadbeat. Nice. Because he was far from it. Previously, when he had every story about Alton, he was such a stand up guy. He was so different

43:36KT: until he wasn't. When does your Alton mixtape drop, sir?

43:41Oti: Just wait.

43:42KT: What do I always say Oti in regards to parents?

43:42Oti: No one can fuck you up more.

43:42KT: Well, there you go. There you fucking go. Right?

43:52Oti: I I just understood him. And it's it's good to see him sort of reestablish himself, get footing, help Cissy buy the house.

44:02KT: There's a difference between helping and there's a difference between decades long of companionship.

44:09Oti: Not even helping. Helping Cissy and accept the gift that Franklin gave him. Because Cissy was all, oh, it is drug money. I don't worry. Oh my god. I just live in the street. Mate, you're being you're being evicted. There's some there's some lines, mate, you have to cross. I'm just saying.

44:09KT: Okay. Well, I'm not pinning one parent against another. I'm just saying

44:29KT: that we can't neglect how Franklin is feeling in lieu of whatever Alton has suffered. Maybe if the series was from Alton's point of view, I would sympathize with him more. However, this is about Franklin Saint and he fucked him up.

44:47Oti: Yeah. Fair enough. But we see him

44:50KT: It's not fair. It is not fair for a parent to, first of all, fuck you up in emotional, physical, whatever way. And second of all, it's not fair for that same parent to decide when they wanna come back into your life and decide that's when I want to be there. And also, actually, as a further extension and a third point, it's not fair to just completely pretend

45:16KT: like all of the pain and all the hurt for those years, for those formative years for Franklin didn't exist. He wasn't even allowed to acknowledge the pain. It's just your dad's here. He's trying. He's a saint, if you'll pardon the pun. Let's just go with it.

45:26Oti: I really didn't see it like that. I just saw it more of, okay, this is a bloke struggling and then he understands the path Franklin is on better than anyone in that family.

45:36KT: No. No. No. But what kind of kid that gets neglected is going to think, oh, yeah. My dad was going through a hard time. No. They just feel the scars of the remnants of a father that wasn't there.

45:36Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Of course, there's scar tissue and

45:36KT: Oh, Red Hot Chili Peppers reference. Yeah.

45:57Oti: And and that can't be helped. But what he does is provide Franklin advice when he sees him crossing the line or seeing him

46:10KT: That pissed me off. And, like, where do you get off even trying to give me some sort of fatherly advice? Fuck off.

46:18Oti: They were dealing with government, and he was in was it Black Panther? Yeah. He knew all that shit. He knew what the government would do I don't know. To keep a secret. Yeah. But it's He knew they'll come for Franklin. It's the least you could do. It's the least you could do.

46:18KT: What do you want? A fucking pat on the back? Piss off.

46:18Oti: Yeah. Give me a pat on the back and a stroke on the neck. I don't know. Just just something.

46:39KT: You were cautiously very ready for that answer. I was. Like, suspiciously very ready to have that answer. But, you know, I guess let's just leave it there. Feel free friends and lovers to chime in. You know, I I'm always very protective from the kids' point of view. So that just pissed me off. And it will forever piss me off, but there you go. Fair enough. Let's talk a bit about Cissy.

47:08Oti: I think she is the one person that annoys me in Franklin's circle.

47:11KT: Aw, come on. She was a single mother raising Franklin on her own?

47:11Oti: No. She was just naive.

47:11KT: Wait. Wait. Okay. Well, maybe we don't have time. But the fact that you sympathize with the dad who chose fucking shit ass. The fact that you sympathize with the dad that chose to walk out compared to Cissy that was fucking trying to make it work. No. No. Everything you say is invalid, actually.

47:37Oti: She was just being naive through and through. Like she

47:40KT: Oh, come on.

47:40Oti: She had this utopian world in her head.

47:40KT: Yeah. But you can see why she didn't Franklin involved in that world because she probably saw in the community, in her proximity, people getting incarcerated.

47:55KT: Right? And even though there are people incarcerated for selling weed, even though weed is legal in most states in America, is a conversation we need to have for another day. Ava DuVernay does it better, but it's a conversation we need to have another day.

47:55Oti: Fair enough. But I just felt like she was the weakest link, and I didn't really care for her for her back flipping.

48:14Oti: Because one minute should be with Franklin, the next minute should be there worrying, telling Franklin, no. No. Don't do this. Let's just go. Let's move. Let's do something. Let's get out of here. Like, far out, man. It's either you're in it, and the fact that Franklin was in with the government, he wasn't those aren't just walking away. The father knew that. The father told her that, but it wasn't enough, was it? You can't be all for and all against,

48:38KT: sir. We are complex creatures.

48:42Oti: She wasn't.

48:47KT: Damn, dog. You could see, like, the amount of harassment and sexual assault that she got from that stupid boss that she had, you knew she was dealing with some shit and you're a fucking idiot. How about that?

49:01Oti: Fair enough.

49:06KT: I but I understand that she didn't want her son wrapped up in it. What are you gonna say? You wish she had more faith in her son in being able to enterprise a drug sort of industry?

49:18Oti: Yep. Okay. Alright. I don't know what you put it like that. Jesus.

49:28KT: Am I leading the witness? Is that what they call this?

49:31Oti: You're classic 60 Minutes interviewer, aren't you?

49:33KT: Hopefully not Tara Brown. Mhmm. That's an Australian 60 Minutes for your reference. Just leave it alone. Don't don't look it up. It's fine. Okay. So we've covered a lot of the nucleus within Franklin's sort of sphere. Let's branch out a little bit more and talk about Teddy. Mhmm. Teddy, Teddy, Teddy. Carter Hudson. I never knew Yi, and I don't know if I will continue to knew Yi. His acting fucking pissed me off. Like, his acting in general, I'm just like, he seems to apologize for being in a room. And I

50:12Oti: No. I think he does.

50:12KT: I don't care.

50:12Oti: Think he does a great job.

50:12KT: I don't care for that sort of acting.

50:12Oti: Doesn't he have, like, background in Broadway or something?

50:12KT: Okay. Oti that never researches anyone, but apparently knows everything about how to act in.

50:12Oti: To me, he acted flawlessly, especially when displaying the sort of because we know he has issues. He has issues as a dad. He has issues as a brother. He he has issues as a son. So when portraying such a complex character he is a complex character, not Cissy.

50:42KT: You you were waiting for this, weren't you? I was. You were armed and Okay.

50:47Oti: I was. You're you're here giving out awards for complicated characters and naming Cissy for it. Nah, man.

50:56KT: Cissy, don't you know we love you?

50:59Oti: Oh, wow. I think Teddy is is super complex. And he he is the one that sort of we're seeing the world because seeing through Franklin's eyes isn't enough to tell the whole story. And that's where Teddy comes in because there's a sort of different side of it all. He literally could have just had a placeholder and I would have been fine. Wow. Yeah. Didn't you see how much he loved his brother?

51:24KT: Oh, I fucking love his brother. His brother's the fucking best.

51:28Oti: And his brother what was it, Matt? He's in he's in Kingdom. He is. With the with the what's the three brothers names? Jonas Brothers. What's their lead one? Nick.

51:40KT: Nick Jonas. Not Kevin. No one talks about Kevin. Who's Kevin? Exactly. Alright.

51:46Oti: He's solid.

51:47KT: He's solid. Oh, we fucking seen him in everything. He's also in Westworld as well. We saw him in City on a Hill recently too. American Gods, actually. Shout Mhmm. Out to Dean Winters just because I can.

52:01Oti: But he's so because, you know, he's not getting he doesn't get along with the dad.

52:06KT: But the fact that he he let his brother be a hostage, that is fucking shite.

52:11Oti: It's shite, but it wasn't out of his own doing. He was snorting his body weight in coke. He didn't have anyone else to turn to but the brother. The brother could fly the plane and he needed someone's start. No. And it was the sort of last resort he could go with. It was fucked up though. It was fucked up the way he let his brother remain a hostage. Well, it wasn't intentional.

52:32KT: Okay. Cute. But still it was wrong, son.

52:37Oti: Get your Cissy feels out of this. Convenient.

52:41KT: Convenient for you to bring an argument that doesn't exist.

52:46Oti: But, wow. I think it was so one of the best sort of moments with me in this show with him is his sort of involvement with what was it? Soli dad? Uh-huh. The the crooked I I feel like she was crooked as hell. Yeah. You can't tell me otherwise. She she crossed the line alone. She was definitely a problem. She thought her stink her stank don't stink. What?

53:09KT: Her stank don't stink. I like that. I appreciate that. Let's go with that. Her stank don't stink.

53:15Oti: Yep. She thought that.

53:18KT: Douche yourself, bitches, because your stank will stink. That is a PSA from Oti from the For Your Reference podcast. Your stank don't stink.

53:27Oti: But, wow. I think I think he's he sort of opens up a different sort of avenue to Franklin. He also helps Franklin not only get out of jail when he was arrested, and that sort of put a bull's eye in his on his back when it came to Andre. Mhmm. Franklin's girlfriend's dad. You know? So it's he he saw an opportunity in Franklin growing. He saw Franklin being different. He gave him that chance

53:52Oti: multiple times. Times when he thought that he could just sort of Mhmm. Walk away and pick someone else. You know? He saw something in Franklin and against the better judgment of Avi and the rest of the people who thought Franklin was becoming too big for his britches, he stuck through.

54:09KT: I appreciated that throughout the series, Teddy was given more textural sorta layers to his character. So even though he bothered me from an acting performance point of view, it started to make sense after a while because we have interchanges with his father that seems like, you can tell he is just he is never going to get it. You know, like, sometimes when you, like, look at old people and it's like, they're too old to explain why something they said is racist. Like, he's that sort of old man. Right?

54:42KT: So the way that he treated Teddy was interesting, but not surprising after we had spent some time with Teddy. It's like, oh, okay. So I get why he keeps his distance from his dad, and he dealt with all of that shit that he had to deal with. Speaking of shit that he had to deal with, how about his ex wife?

55:01Oti: Oh, the cop. Yeah. She's she's annoying as well. You know what? Like,

55:05KT: as as much as I say I'm a tough bitch, there was a part of me that wanted to believe in love. And you know how she was like stringing him along? There was a part of me that was like, nah. She's pretending to be a double agent, but secretly she wants to protect him. How about when she dropped intel and they were coming to raid the warehouse?

55:24KT: Yeah. What the fuck was that shit? That's some messy shit, man. You just wanna believe in the sanctity of love, but it just doesn't happen that way, does it? Just tell him and then you can figure a plan out that doesn't involve betraying your partner. Some messed up shit. But it's it's it's one thing to betray your partner and it's one thing to willfully provide intel that could potentially kill him.

55:43Oti: Yep. Like, And then didn't she'd back and with the audacity of, oh, we could still be together. Fight? Get the fuck out. You need to get all the way the fuck out.

55:56KT: The way the fuck out of this galaxy. She and then they had their special moment where they were, like, fucking out of river or at least that's how I remember it. Yeah. It was and they were hallucinating or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, man. Like, I do feel bad for Teddy. He is like the Joe Swanson, the Toby from The Office. Like, you just want him to have at least one good day. Yeah. You just want him to have one good day.

56:25KT: We are wrapping up, and we will wrap up with Melody and also Andre Wright. But before we do that, I just wanna give some little accolades to some other characters of the series, and feel free to jump in, Oti, as well. I just wanna give a shout out to Wade Allain-Marcus. He plays Derek on Insecure,

56:45KT: and he was on six episodes of Snowfall. And he was like this drug boss. Mhmm. Fucking loved it. It was interesting, especially compared to his character. We I think that was the first time we saw him was in Insecure. Yep. And then you had him being a full, you know, hard ass in every delicious sort of way in Snowfall. It was fucking great. I like him. I hope we continue to see him. Yep.

57:12KT: Not like a bechamel sort of way because he doesn't have the wet sort of eyes, but I I do hope that whenever watching something, he happens to be in it as well. Mhmm. Fucking great. Fucking ace. DeRay Davis was also in Snowfall as well for 11 episodes, Oti. Yeah. As Peaches. As Peaches. Most deliciously. Actually, before we talk about Melody, do you wanna talk about Wanda for a little bit?

57:41Oti: If you wanna dissuade anyone from doing crack, just show them a picture of Melody in Snowfall. And they'll be like, mate, that's crack right there.

57:53KT: Because in in Australia, if you buy cigarettes, they have, like, all of them have shocking terrible photos of teeth or lungs or whatever. You know, pretty much like a cautionary sort of message on there. I'm not sure how they would do that with crack, but I I get what you're saying. Yep. Do you want to believe or do you think that Wanda was just a normal person, but the greed and the temptation of, you know,

58:23KT: fortune got to her? Do you think she just turned into Gollum Or do you think she was always

58:23Oti: She wanted. She wanted that shit too much. She was telling Leon how he could run this. He could be

58:23KT: I like how Leon stood his ground. I I really appreciate And you could tell that this was not gonna end well. Do you remember do you remember when Wanda came to him? I think it was in season two. Wanda came to him and was like, let's do it. Let's let's flip it on Franklin. Like, let's completely,

58:49KT: you know, pull the rug up under him and let's let's take everything. And in that moment, again, another pivotal moment in this series, Leon had to decide whether he he went along with what Wanda was saying Yeah. Or if he stays true to his friendship with Franklin. And that's when he cuffed her, not in a romantic way. He physically cuffed her for her to like

59:11Oti: To help her to to get clean. Yeah.

59:16KT: That was also really Haltaki, they call it. That was really a that that was really a pivotal moment, not just for Leon, but what it means to solidify his friendship with Franklin.

59:27Oti: Oh, for sure.

59:29KT: But yeah, shout out to Wanda, the cautionary tale of the crack cocaine world. I guess, if that's what you wanna call it. We see we've seen her in Atlanta, Insecure, and The Belko Experiment. Mhmm. I'm not sure if you remember seeing her in The Belko Experiment, but there you go. That's where we've seen her. So definitely shout out to Wanda. Mhmm. Let's get into Melody and also Andre.

59:57Oti: So Melody is a girl next door that Franklin and Ida will She was the girl next door, wasn't she? Yep. And the father was so against that relationship.

60:09KT: Similar to Cissy.

60:11Oti: Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, way, like, above and beyond Cissy's level.

60:11KT: Thank you. I appreciate that. I really appreciate that.

60:11Oti: No. Andre just had a thing that, okay. I get it. It's your daughter, but she want he wants to control every sort of aspect of her life when it came to that. And that's how you sort of push teenagers of that age It's just too Yeah. You can't be a helicopter parent and then expect

60:38Oti: no. It it doesn't work like that. It really doesn't. And seeing their relationship was kinda weird because they were always arguing throughout the whole season to the point where when Melody started doing crack. He blamed. Yeah. He blamed Franklin. It was it was Franklin's fault regardless of every single thing. Yeah. And to some extent though, you know, Franklin is the one that introduced crack cocaine in in that neighborhood. Yeah. It's kind of the genesis. Yeah. So he wasn't completely wrong. It wasn't like a 10 mile level accusation.

61:10KT: Remember Andre took him along for a ride and, you know, they went into an area where you have drug users and he's like, look what your drugs doing to the community and all of this sort of shit. Right? And then you have Franklin being like, but what are you doing? Like, you're locking up our own. And that was a moment that definitely needed to be digested. You know, we talk about John Singleton and his ability to convey and effectively

61:38KT: be able to deliver messaging. And that was definitely done in that scene. I think a lot of the time when I think about effective sort of messaging, I will always come back to that moment Oh yeah. With Andre and also Franklin because they realize that they're at an impasse. You know, Franklin's past that sort of impressionable age where he will listen to Andre. Yeah. Not that he would ever, but he's past that point where he will listen to him and they realize that they're both staring at the enemy.

62:11KT: Whichever one you believe is correct or not, but even the way that Andre handled, you know, Jerome wasn't right. Yeah. Jerome and them, like, raiding the house, that was completely wrong. And you kind of see him have a conflict, but not really. Because he sees himself as above people that deal drugs in that point in time. But then you also see his conflict that he has with his own, you know, colleagues,

62:40Oti: where they would call him names as well. Yeah. Because to him, he thought he he's not a black person because he's wearing a uniform. But Yeah. At the end of the day, mate, you're still black. Yeah. That doesn't change. They'll still see you as black. The chicken George's, if you will. And the way they would talk about the black people in the neighborhood and disregard them. And they're like, no. But you're different. You're different. You're not like them. Yeah. It's it's far out, man. And he and he sipped that up as if

63:09Oti: I don't know. He's he's one of those people that I really didn't appreciate or like in this show. Yeah. And his spoiler. His death did not make me feel any sort of way at all.

63:26KT: Because I think at I think at the same time, you know, for for as much as damage you can discuss for Franklin introducing crack cocaine or being one of the pioneers of introducing crack cocaine to the community, he he wasn't doing it in a way that was malicious in contrast to what Andre was doing. He was always he was always there to help in every sense that he could. And Andre was really different where, you know, you can't be that sort of character and not kind of have some sort of self hatred.

64:00KT: Yeah. Which is kind of sad. But also you're a grown adult and you know what you're doing. Yep. So that standoff between Andre and Franklin, it because even when they were in the car, they knew that they had to kill one or the other. And I think Andre even alludes to that as well. Yeah. Right? So when we have the standoff between the two, someone was gonna die. Someone was going to die. It was quite clear that watching that final scene that someone was going to die.

64:32KT: Obviously, because it's Snowfall and, you know, we have our protagonist Franklin, it wasn't going to be Franklin, but it was still tense. It still held our attention because as much as he disbanded any sort of ties he had with Kevin, Melody was a different story. Melody had you know, she had dived into the vices and she was very aware of that. She she wanted Franklin to feel guilty about it, but she still continued along with her life. But this was someone that he loved. Yeah.

65:02KT: Loved as past tense because you see that, you know, all the love is lost after that. But this was one of the final ties that he has to his humanity where he's like, I don't like him, but he's also Melody's dad. So we kind of left it to the last moment of whether he would kill him or not. Yeah. It had to be done, though. Yeah. It had to be done.

65:26Oti: He'd stolen he had knowledge of a lot of shit that he wasn't supposed to able him. The secrets, which I think There's no way he would have survived either way because it was either Franklin does it or the government does it. Yeah. And I think the sort of what I didn't foresee is Melody's reaction because she turned into the regular Agatha Christie out there. She she she came parole. You know? She was, oh,

65:51Oti: my window's always closed. Look at the latch. Oh, this is Franklin style of opening my window. Oh my. This is Franklin. Franklin cleared my desk. Yeah. And wow. And that led us to a moment where now she shoots Franklin.

66:04KT: Mhmm.

66:05Oti: And then I think that's where we have qualms with where the show started taking or progressing rather.

66:12KT: Regressing, perhaps. Okay. So that is tantalizing. Those episodes up until before the season finale was fucking tantalizing. Fucking loved it. Super ace. The season finale for season three is a fucking problem. If you don't see it as a problem, feel free to email us because that's where Oti is. But it was a disservice to the series as a whole. I did not care for it. I know it's cute because we're supposed to imagine if Franklin didn't go down the road of selling drugs, this is where he would be. I do appreciate,

66:57KT: however, in this episode that you see the barriers that he's he faced was through systemic and institutionalized racism.

67:07Oti: Yep.

67:08KT: And I like I do I do appreciate the contrast of struggle because just because he decided to go the legitimate way doesn't mean it was an easy ride for him. So I appreciate that overarching sort of narrative. However, when you leave on such high tension and you decide to just give us a fantasy sort of episode, it kinda turns into Vera Farmiga for two seasons in Bates Motel. It's like, can we get onto the main story now? Again, this is not canon. This is filler. But

67:46KT: at the same time, I don't think I ever wondered what it would be like if Franklin was to go legitimate. Did you ever wonder? Nope. So this was a question that was being answered for no one that was asking.

67:57Oti: And then I think one of the things that I had qualms especially with that is because it took time from us showing us exactly what transpired or happened after him being shot because we skip into, I don't know how many days or weeks into the future where he's fine and he's all sort of smiling into the background with a cane and he's completely gotten

68:22Oti: like, this is where he's actually And it's like now what? Life. Yeah. Frankly, he's already broken bad ages ago. This is sort of not new. Just because he survived a close encounter with death doesn't change that at all. Yeah. Exactly. At least not for me because all those things he was planning is exactly what he's gonna do. Yeah. He's not gonna start now being Escobar or some shit. Nah. That was not the level he was aspiring to. Mhmm. At least in my mind.

68:51KT: Yeah. It was really frustrating. And I think that was part of the reason why we didn't cover it as soon as the season finished. Because usually we like run to our podcasting to come and cover it. But, you know, given the light of the situation, we don't know when we're going to get season four. And even though the season finale for season three soured how we felt, it doesn't undo the quality and the emotional investment and the fully realized character development of this show.

69:26Oti: Yeah. It is too good not to talk about. It is too good not to talk about. And I think one of the things that at least I'm curious as to where they'd go is now without John Singleton at the helm, how the show takes a turn and if it takes a turn and what happens.

69:48KT: Interesting. I I really appreciated the tribute that they had to John Singleton where they hired an actor to look very similar to him and also use the same sort of camera that he would use as well. And they they made some cute little jokes about who in the hood would be documenting, who would wanna watch this as well. So definitely appreciate that.

70:10KT: But this was a great series. It really was. And it will continue to be a great series when we get season four. But thank you so much for tuning in. We are going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference.

70:23Oti: I'm gonna reference The Wire. Simple as, man. Drugs is drugs. And if you wanna see the effect it has on people on their day to day, nothing does it better than The Wire. And also at the same time, it takes a step back from the streets and it shows the interconnectedness of all of the intricate sort of networks as well.

70:40KT: Very nice, Oti. I commend you on your reference. I will reference the Wu-Tang miniseries. Woo hoo. Not necessarily about drugs, but you also have an ambitious protagonist trying to enterprise further from what they can see. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you know what's also further than what we can see? Mhmm. On a day to day basis on Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. And we'll see you guys next week. See you.