Head High – Certified Flanker

Full transcript of Head High – Certified Flanker.

0:00KT: Haere mai, whanau. It's another week in the For Your Reference podcast. Join us on this journey, and thank you for everyone that has joined us so far to celebrate the second year of our podcasting, we covered Taika Waititi's filmography. So definitely a tantalizing palette. If you haven't already checked that out, we are also going to be riding the long white cloud of Aotearoa today. Let's get on with the show. Friends and rugby lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

1:02KT: Intercept, the forward pass of social commentary and touchdown in our hearts.

1:06Oti: Wow. You've got your sports references.

1:10KT: Enough. Run it straight lads. with Head High this week. What a time was had, Oti. Delicious, lovely, delectable. We love finding series that are close and right across the pond. Let's get into general stats and information. This came out of the production company, South Pacific Pictures, which you may not know. We talk a lot about Home and Away. We talk a lot about Neighbours. And if you are a little bit more learned, you might be familiar with Shortland Street, which is the largest property of South Pacific Pictures. Thousands and thousands of episodes, Oti.

1:51KT: Also, they released Sione's Wedding. I don't know if I need to return my brown card anywhere because I still haven't watched Sione's Wedding. Wow. Yeah. I know. Come and fight me kids. And also Whale Rider. Oh, we love Whale Rider. Yeah. And fighting whales nonetheless. So a lot of love, a lot of prestige, a lot of quality. The first season was released in June 2020. The second season recently just aired. It is available on three in New Zealand and also Stan in Australia. Shout outs to our American the majority of our listeners.

2:29KT: Sometimes it's okay to enjoy something that you don't understand. That also includes subtitles, you motherfuckers. Just quickly capturing off the head writers and script writers in regards to this show that are involved. We have Kate McDermott, Shoshana McCallum, Tim Worrell, as well as Nick Mulhollt, as well as a lot a lot a lot of learned, lovely, beautiful directors as well. But wow. Wow. Wow, Oti. What a show. We're going to get into first impressions in a way of first three credited on IMDb cast. We have Miriama McDowell, Craig Hall, as well as Jaden Daniels.

3:11KT: Lots of up and comers. I'm sure if we were living in New Zealand, we would be aware of a lot more of the cast, but tantalizing beautiful time all around. Let's get into first impressions, Oti. You know, we we talk a lot about football, the European football of it all. Feel free to share your background in rugby if you have any. How did you feel going into the show? And I guess generally how you do feel. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Otherwise,

3:43KT: welcome, welcome, welcome. Haramay all around the town, but we are gonna spoil this show. But I imagine we're going to have a very tasty discussion as well. So feel free, you nasty people, to enjoy if you haven't watched it.

3:43Oti: Wow. I really did enjoy the show. I think getting into the show,

4:01Oti: I wasn't sure what to expect from it. Yeah. But I think after the first episode, I was hooked. I knew it was going to be great. Mhmm. It's very, very few series that get you so hooked that you could see the potential. You can see where they're going with the first episode, and you're fully bought in. Yeah. So kudos to them, man. I think the way it transpired with the characters from Christian to Mana and Tai,

4:28Oti: like, you could see the Dalaivism and Yeah. For for the biggest shock to me when I started watching, I was like, oh, really? They're really gonna kill him right now. Bloody hell. This is for you, Christian Saint. But, man, I I think it's been a while since I enjoyed a sporting show like this. So, wow. I was in love, man. Yeah. In love.

4:28KT: And I think it was the most ideal

4:54KT: situation because we realized that there were two seasons. So it's it's a great situation when you find a show that you love and you know that it just recently wrapped up with season two and hopefully it gets to season three as well. You know, if you're as learned, if if you're as nasty as us in the For Your Reference household, there are many layers in which we hope to enjoy TV shows in particular. You know, obviously it needs to be entertaining. Obviously the writing needs to have quality. There needs to be that penmanship,

5:29KT: but also at the same time, we do want, you know, real life themes spoken through the characters and have characters experience those themes in particular. Some people like watching the same Marriage Story, Malcolm & Marie, and I won't take anything from that, but, you know, there's only so much you can get from couples that shouldn't be together fighting to be couples. But I'm not talking about Vince right now. Gonna come to Vince in a second. But I love how, you know, this show didn't shy away from the complexity

6:05KT: and the reality that is in New Zealand. You know, we talk about Hunt for the Wilderpeople, talking about child poverty and homelessness being, you know, interwoven into Taika's filmography. And for a lot of the time, even though, yes, New Zealand is great and it is the gold standard in a lot of the cases, but there is a housing crisis. And we do see that through Gabe in particular. There's definitely a lot that is going on in New Zealand that needs to be addressed. And we talked about this in our Mystery Road episode,

6:41KT: really the only way you can do that is from within the community. And it's great that the touch points and the voices are able to convey that through the show. That's to say we're wankers and we like some contextual background, really. So let's get into the show. There are a couple of themes I wanna touch upon before we actually talk into particular characters, just because I feel that there are Splooshies and there are accolades that I need to lay for this show, and it's the way in which they executed it. The successful

7:15KT: White Lotus, if it was possible for it to be. Wow. Go and check out our White Lotus episode, friends and lovers. It wasn't great, spoiler alert. But our episode was lovely. If if you like Bill Burr, you might enjoy me shouting for an hour. Mhmm. But let's get into the themes. I wanna talk about rugby generally. I am Tongan Australian born, and I'll I'll talk about rugby and what it means to my sphere and people that look like me. But I wanna talk about rugby in general because it is the centerpiece of this show,

7:54KT: the pride, the danger, and glory.

7:56Oti: Rugby is big in Africa, so I grew up watching a lot of rugby. I grew up playing some bit of rugby, but I realized quite soon that I wasn't there. It wasn't for me, at least playing. I enjoyed watching more.

8:13KT: You got that long distance runner body.

8:17Oti: Yeah. But bloody balls made of glass. And in the world we live in, like, plays such a major role in a lot of different communities. Sports is king. Sorry, Beyonce, but sports is king. True. To some point, it's no longer just about the ball and the net or or the try or whatever you wanna call it. It's more about the communal aspect of it. You know? The the com camaraderie that it brings people, you know, it escalates or it transcends just being a mere sport in a lot of a lot of communities.

8:52Oti: And we can see this clearly so much in in in Head High where it's just not it's still way of life. You know? When you take away rugby at the base of it, who are they really? You know? They formed a relationship through that. They know how to communicate through that. And you know, even when Vince,

9:13Oti: one of the so when we look at Vince and how he interacts with the kids, you know, it's always through rugby. And we realized pretty quickly when he couldn't when he couldn't talk to Tai anymore about rugby. When he chose not to connect with him. When he when he chose not to connect with Tai because he was playing for the rivals, they didn't have anything to talk about. Yeah. They didn't have anything. It was just more of, hey, you alright? Goodbye. That's

9:38Oti: it. Yeah. Which was sad and weird, but it just goes to show you how they'd formed this relationship around the sport and really didn't bother breaking through past that. Yeah.

9:51KT: For me, from my frame of reference, as we always like to refer to our frame of reference, rugby is a point of status. Statistically, I would say I would go out in a stretch to say in the Pacifica as well as in New Zealand, everyone has at least one person in their family that is playing on a pro level. Pretty much everyone has a cousin that is is now in France or or Japan that has been bought. But it's definitely a beautiful thing. And and then, you know, rugby can be something that unites

10:31KT: a culture, but man, there's a double edged sword to sports. I don't know what it is. I think maybe it's the primal urge to want to cheer and to maybe also cheer for the downfall of, you know, we recently saw that on an international stage with soccer and the other guys. Right? So it's interesting, but I guess coming back to rugby, it is a point of pride, it is a point of status and it it it really is like the brown kids rags to riches story. You know, another day can be a conversation

11:11KT: about higher level education. But in regards to rugby, that is a way to even change classes. It's really that sort of, you know, center point that a lot of people in Pacifica as well as Maori like, aspire to be, and it's a great thing to be. There was a cute little joke in Hunt for the Wilderpeople about the All Blacks and not being sure whether they're human or not because of that superhuman strength. You know? So rugby is great and and there's a lot of love. There's a lot of accolades

11:45KT: between you and I, friends and lovers. I don't particularly understand all of the rules in all of the rugby's. But if if Tonga and Samoa are playing, I'm definitely going to be there. That's for sure. I do like how this show explored the other side of the coin, especially we see this explored through Jesse, where as much as there's the the lauding and the accolading, there's also a very real long term effect to their health as well. And we see that with Jesse and we also see that,

12:18KT: you know, even before we we learn fully about his situation, we see that through one of his old teammates. And his teammate isn't able to process or even, you know, able to place Jesse at that point in his life, which is a very sad thing. I don't necessarily, you know, think it's talked about enough. It's just like, get my son into rugby, get my cousin into rugby,

12:42KT: you know, get my brother into rugby without really looking at, you know, the effects of it. And that's not to say that never play rugby again because Vince would be very heartbroken. But just because it's a hard conversation doesn't mean we don't start the conversation. And I really appreciate that's what was being done in this show.

12:58Oti: Yeah. You definitely don't shy away from it. And I think there's a lot of onus on health nowadays, especially in sports when it comes to concussion and and all the head injuries that can be attained from merely heading a ball in soccer. You know? We get now that kids can't head balls until they are a certain age. So at least there's that conversation going, and there's an awareness that, hey. It's not alright, you know, from NFL's concussion rates and,

13:32Oti: know, it's been happening worldwide. That's been swept under the rug for such a long time that at least we get we're getting shows that are talking about this more. They're raising awareness. You know? You don't have to shy away just because you're scared that it might impact your sport. There You are ways to mitigate that. You could see that when Jesse realized that there was something wrong because early detection signs. He knew that something wasn't right, but he continued pushing and pushing and pushing to the point where he made it worse.

14:03Oti: Yeah. So I think there has to be some responsibility from the clubs and the franchises to be like, hey. We're doing these testings, and we see some things a bit off. You know, it's not just up to the players because if you tell the players, make your own choice, you know, they'll 99 percent of them will be like, I wanna continue playing.

14:21KT: And we see that with JW as the coach at that particular point in time in season one. And that's unfortunately how Christian sadly passed away because he was concussed and he definitely shouldn't have been continuing to play on the field, but he did. Yeah. Right? And then Tai's injured, I think in season two

14:42KT: in his leg or his ankle and he's not able to run. And he's actually told by Jesse to like hold off until the last moment that he ran on the field. But still, like there was some sort of mitigation that was there. And I think that's the essence of true love. Like you can love something, but also want to hold it to account and want to improve it. And this show absolutely did it. So accolades all around. The next thing I wanna talk about, if I could quote Balram from The White Tiger,

15:17KT: you know, you've got people with the big bellies and the small bellies, or you got people with the mean kai or the stink kai. We are talking about the haves and the have nots. I I I did allude to Perry? What? What? What? If anyone's interested, we actually did dabble in a couple of episodes of Tyler Perry's The Haves and the Have Nots. Please inquire at our email address. I did allude to earlier in regards to the housing crisis in New Zealand, and it does get touched upon again, like I mentioned with Gabe's character.

15:55KT: I think a lot of the time people think of New Zealand as an idyllic sort of space. You know, if it's not Lord of the Rings, it's beautiful postcard picturesque, you know, again, idyllic sort of way of living, but there there is a very real housing crisis. And, you know, even people that are working and are employed, unfortunately, and, you know, in conjunction with, like, the the pandemic and everything, it's becoming impossible for people to be able to live on the money that they're earning.

16:30KT: Right? And that's currently something that's hopefully going to be addressed in New Zealand specifically. And again, it's it's I guess some people say you don't have to, I just wanna watch a TV show. But I I give kudos, and I really appreciate it that they did touch on that as well. I do like how they focused on class because I think a lot of the time, you know, there's a lot of focus on, like, your race, but it's funny because you grow up well, I grew up, you know, in a school where we're all,

17:05KT: you know, we were on Struggle Street, the kids like to say, right? And, you know, you'll talk, like I would talk to like my fellow Islander, you know, kids, and then we would laugh about, you know, the disparity and the experiences that we had because we were poor. And then like other people from other races would talk about it, I'm like, hang on, how are you having the same poor struggles? It's a class thing, right? So it's not always race, it can also be class. And that was also exemplified exemplified through Gabe

17:38KT: as well. And also Scotty, Scotty Crockford or cockford, if you're nasty. He sounds like he should be on Deadwood.

17:45Oti: Yeah.

17:48KT: But yeah, I do like there was an introduction of class and it not always necessarily being in regards to race as well. But that also leads to Christian working at KFC, and this is kinda something I wanted to talk about. You can kinda tell I wasn't a fan of Vince, so I'm going to dredge him through the mud again. So we learned that Christian is working at KFC and he's doing that as a way to live, as a way to pay the bills.

18:18KT: And you can also see that they're living in a garage as well at the time. I feel very spicy friends and lovers because I was talking about the South Korean economy in the last episode, and now I'm talking about the situation in New Zealand. As Jim Carrey would say, somebody stop me. But what I wanted to talk about here is there is going to school and doing your homework and graduating and you ride off into the sunset into your happy 6 figure salary with with some hot person

18:52KT: sitting in a hot tub. Right? That's ideally the way that life is supposed to go. And that is also how the education system is set up as well. It doesn't account for, unfortunately, sometimes your parents being shit, or maybe your parents just aren't shit and you can't survive on what you have. Right? And that's a scenario that we have with Christian. And there was a lot of pushback that Vince had with Christian in particular because he was so talented. He had so many prospects. He had so much potential.

19:25KT: Why was he going to KFC when he should be at rugby practice? And he just actually, this is a good question to throw to you. Do you think he didn't understand or he chose not to understand?

19:36Oti: He chose not to understand because we saw with Vince, his number one thing

19:41Oti: was rugby. Yeah. You know, he he he saw everything through the lens of rugby. Rugby first. You're my star player, you should be playing. You should be, you know, you're the captain, you should be on the field. Everything else be damned. And that was one of his major faults. It's not a matter of, oh, I understand the family life must be tough. Let's find a way to improve it. And we know that he comes to realize that he could have done a lot more to help his players. Yeah. In regards to Crockford

20:10Oti: or anyone else, you know, he he does come to a sense of, oh, I actually need to do more rather than just whatever happens on the field. Yeah. Because he wasn't dumb. Like he knew these kids were struggling

20:22KT: and he's like, once you climb that mountain all by yourself, hurry up and get to rugby practice. That was kind of where Vince was coming from. But again, that was the segment of mean kai, stink kai. The last theme that I wanna talk on is colonization. I am thoroughly impressed that again, this show covered this theme. We talked about the White Lotus. The White Lotus did try to introduce it, putting some wool over my eyes, but it didn't work successfully.

20:55KT: But they they talked about colonization in the show in a very interesting way, and they did it through the characters. They didn't just do it because they wanted to introduce it. It was done in a very natural way through way of Tai. And he he I'm I'm pretty sure it was him questioning the curriculum of history. Like, who's to say this is you know, history is history based on who's writing it. That's a Winston K. T. Churchill quote, I'm pretty sure. And then it kind of turned into

21:28KT: like an opportunity for him to join the debate club. And as a a brown nerd in high school that was in the debate club, I'm very disappointed that I didn't get to see any of that. Far be it for me to expect that from a rugby centered show.

21:46Oti: And it's good. And I think this is also where we come to mean kai, stink kai where Tai doesn't get this opportunity if he's not in Saint Isaac's. Yep. He doesn't get to realize that he's so much more than just what's on the rugby pitch. Yep. He doesn't get this opportunity if he's in South Down High. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And Vince would have known that if he had CAD. And it's good because Tai has he's he's once he graduates,

22:14Oti: he has an option. He has a fallback plan. If rugby is not for him, you know, it's not the end of the world. He has other things to do. Yeah. And I think that's what that's the difference between the schools that we get to see. Yeah. Where you have one school that's limited in resources that will just be like, yeah, we'll get you to point a to b. Yeah. Do the bare minimum because that's all we can do. But with a with a school that has all the resources and all that, they can push you farther.

22:40KT: Well, remember when the Saint Isaac's boys like ruined the field? That was sad because you know that poor school couldn't afford to like fix the field. Right? And then they try to retaliate by going to Saint Isaac's in broad daylight. Come on guys. Come on guys. Get it together. Help me plot. I will plot with you. It will be La Casa De Saint Isaac's. Mhmm. But yeah, I and definitely seeing the differences

23:08KT: between the two schools. And I don't know how we can see it and Vince couldn't see it. He apparently thought there was some sort of extra bucket of money in public funding just for his rugby team. Yep. I did love a lot of the themes, but there was something that I want to bring up. I might potentially bring the show to task. I wanna talk about the queer characters. I wanna talk about the LGBT portrayal in this show. So we have Imogen, and she's first introduced to us, but we also meet Steven as well.

23:44KT: There is a friendship, a definite friendship between Steven as well as Tai, but then there were some eludings there. And I'm not sure how I feel about those eludings, but we'll come to that in a moment. In regards to LGBT characters as well as relationships, we have Steven as well as Nico. There's definitely a lot to talk about Nico, so I don't wanna touch on it too much now. But friends and lovers, people that write stories. If we're going to have queer characters, especially if your straight characters are pretty much licking everywhere,

24:21KT: I need them to kiss. That's it. If they're in bed together, guaranteed someone's gonna get a kiss. Sorry for revealing my nasty bed manner, but that's it. That that's all I wanted to say. There are lovely things to say about this show, but that's just one thing that was bothering me because you had an openly gay character. And actually, no, I would say Nico was also openly gay. So we had two openly gay characters in a relationship and we didn't see them kiss once.

24:47Oti: No. We did see them kiss towards the very end.

24:47KT: We did. Okay.

24:53KT: If you if you think if you think that one kiss is equated to all the other kisses we saw in the show, underage and otherwise, Mana, we're looking at you. We'll come back to you Mana and Frankie. Alright. Let's get into the characters of the show Oti. I wanna talk about Vince and Renee. Let's let's focus on them two specifically. The Marriage Story, the Malcolm & Marie of it all. Thoughts?

25:21Oti: Oh, man. It's Vince is is blinded by his love or his tunnel vision for rugby. Yeah. Everything has to work around that. The family have to dance around that. Yep. He wants everyone to understand his plot in trying to manage and trying to win the one A around that. Like I can't bring you my problems because Vince is

25:49Oti: caught up trying to win something or he's trying to come up with a game plan or there's always something to do with rugby. Mhmm. There's never a right moment to talk with Vince. No. Unless it's about rugby. Unless it's about rugby. And money for the rugby. Exactly. And we come to see this affect their relationship in Renee

26:06Oti: feeling a bit left out. Feeling that, you know, maybe she didn't even realize that she needed a lot of the talking to because when we get to see Renee starting to talk more with her partner, Cruz, we get to see her actually yearning for that conversation with Vince. Yeah. Just being able to go out and spend the day, not talk about rugby, just be themselves. It feels like there was a point where there was that because she she clearly says, you know, I missed that about us. So

26:36Oti: for her to try and get Vince to talk about that and being met with a wall or being not just it's all nonchalant or even Vince realizing that, oh, I need to make a grand gesture and take you out to dinner and get Mitch in this. And it like, there were so moment there's so many moments I was like, Mae, drop the grand gestures. Just fucking do the basics. Yeah. Do the fucking basics. Like, don't swoop in at the last hour. And that's what he did with Aria.

27:04KT: Like, he he he he thought that him turning up at that last moment, but Renee was sitting there with Cruz the whole time. Like, don't think you can swoop in in the last hour and we're all good. This isn't Fatal Attraction, sir. That's not how it works. And I if we can talk about more flaws about Vince, he thinks because he didn't cheat on Renee that he's a good guy. Sorry, that's not enough. Right? A relationship or marriage is a whole encompassing thing. Just because you don't cheat

27:34KT: doesn't mean you're doing enough in your relationship and in your marriage. And I think that's what Vince was so egregious about. Like, I had someone kiss me. I could have done it, but I didn't. You know, he he made it such a thing even though he waited about a month to tell Renee about that as well. There are different ways that you can neglect your lover, friends and lovers. Put that on a t shirt.

27:59KT: But Renee was definitely feeling left out. And if it wasn't about rugby, and you're right. When they when they did have that grand gesture that Vince laid out for her, it turned into a rugby conversation. Oh, we were so frustrated when that happened. Right? Because Mitch, you know, shout out to our Jackson from Wentworth. Like, he did seem to pick up on the social cue that they shouldn't be there. Yeah. But Vince doesn't get. Yeah.

28:25KT: I don't know, man. Like, I I don't get it. But I think we've talked enough about Vince and I'm sure he'll make his way through our other discussions about the characters. Let's talk about Renee. Renee,

28:36Oti: man. I I love Renee. She's wrong to have cheated on Vince. I'm not gonna condone that. Like, you know, sometimes you just have to say it. Tell him, you know, I'm having feelings for Cruz, and I think this is what's happening. Yeah. Don't go out of your way. Catch feelings, fall in love with this other guy, and then it's Sada Cruz died and all. But she just withdrew completely from Vince and the relationship.

29:04KT: But can can can we be mature about this? Like, let's be real. Let let's live in in the cost of fuck of a reality we live in right now. Had Vince had wanted to see the signs, the signs were there. Come on.

29:04Oti: Like, I think this is a pattern of real I've noticed with you.

29:04KT: Stop wagging that finger at me, sir.

29:04Oti: This is a pattern I've realized. When we come across character,

29:26Oti: we female characters

29:28KT: Why'd you emphasize that?

29:31Oti: The teacher's female, mate. When we come across female characters that that cheat, you you always place the blame on the men. You're talking about Issa from Insecure.

29:43KT: But I love Issa Rae so

29:46Oti: It's the same thing. You you you're like, no, Lawrence was bad. He could have done this. But your if your answer is fucking cheating, then me.

29:46KT: No. No. I I would say that's because I love Issa, not because I love females.

29:46Oti: So so what about Renee in this situation? Because when we're all watching this, you had a lot of comments and opinions

29:46KT: Renee about kind

30:07KT: of became the emotional dump truck in this series and every show kind of has one. And we talked about it in The Shield, our Dani Sofer.

30:07Oti: Sofer, yeah. Yeah.

30:07KT: Some and it's usually commonly the female character, like every tragic thing, like every Bold and Beautiful, Young and the Restless plotline happens to this particular character, it's usually a woman. That was happening to Renee. But I would say she deserved the most joy. She deserved the most love. So coming from that point of view, I'm not justifying the cheating, but I understand.

30:44Oti: Cool. You can understand, but there are ways in which you could have done that better.

30:44KT: Okay. But also Vince could have come to the table.

30:44Oti: Agreed. I'm not saying that just because, know, both of them can be wrong. Both of them can be wrong. Renee,

30:59Oti: it's one thing just going out and cheat and having a one night stand and it not being anything, but this wasn't it. She was fully falling in She was on her way out. She was catching feels, babe. Yeah. She was catching the next train. This is something that and that's and that's what what Vince got. And that's what Vince understood after they had that conversation.

31:19Oti: He was like, if Cruz was here now, where would you be?

31:19KT: Yeah. But come on. He's also like, I gotta go deal with the rugby, talk to you in three days. Like, what the fuck?

31:28KT: Your marriage is falling apart. You need to deal with this,

31:28Oti: But he's hot and angry. To that point, I understood that he just needed some time. He's been shit, fine. But he's also allowed to feel some sort of angst towards Renee when that when he found out.

31:28KT: Now it's my turn to wag my finger at you, sir.

31:28Oti: Especially the way he found out. He found out from fucking Jesse.

31:51Oti: Like, the the ways in which you could find out about cheating that would make it a bit better, but bloody hell to find out from your ex husband who's like, hey, your wife, hey, you think she's all that? She was cheating on you, mate. The No, cock becomes the cuckold,

32:08KT: it seems. But now it's my turn to wag my finger at you, sir. You have a tendency to defend shitty men, which is is which is wild to me because you are a man of quality, but you like defending shitty men and I don't know why. That is a a a bean flicking couch we can deal with another day. But I I do love Renee. I I love how earnest she was in all of her relationships.

32:08Oti: How dare you?

32:08KT: I'm not talking about affairs. I mean, like, her relationship with her children.

32:41KT: I love how they had like an open door policy. Sometimes you have like friends that just show up anyway. But she was very loving. She was very nurturing. And you can see that was possibly what, you know, motivated her to enter the police force. You know, very similar to Fran in Mystery Road, recommendation, go and check out the show as well as listen to our episode, where she as a Maori woman is trying to navigate her culture, what that means in a modern setting, as well as being embedded and being employed

33:20KT: in a white institutionalized police department. Those are some heavy to hold Oti. Right? And what I also really resonated with Renee as well, she never felt Maori enough. Right? And I think, if you're in that sort of quandary, you can also resonate with that as well. We also see with the introduction of Nahoya, like she didn't want Aria to say that she needed help with the speech and for Aria to pretend it was her own speech. And, you know, having that trepidation of wanting to do her duty and be more involved in the community,

34:04KT: but also having that, you know, initial sort of nervousness and anxiousness about it. I just loved how earnest she was. She and I just wanted the best for her. Is that okay, Oti?

34:04Oti: That's okay. We all wanted the best for her.

34:04KT: Well, apparently. Let's talk about Jesse.

34:04Oti: Oh, man. You can only imagine what Renee had gone through though. But

34:25Oti: one thing, one good thing about Jesse, he doesn't mince words.

34:25KT: True.

34:25Oti: And I think I appreciate such characters. Yeah. Just say it how you feel it and consequences be fucking damned.

34:37KT: There's never cloak and dagger shit.

34:41Oti: Yep. Like, he's gonna stab you, but you'll know it's coming. Know, you know it's coming. You know, you you exactly know where you stand with Jesse at all times. Yeah. You know? He's not gonna lie. He's not gonna sugarcoat anything. That's one good thing about him. He's a shit father. But with what he's facing mentally at the very least with his diagnosis is he's come to a point where I think he wants to be closer to his family, you know.

35:04KT: Do you think he had already been planning to come back and Mana calling, albeit through the social media channels? Do you think that that was the push for him to come home?

35:13Oti: I think so. I think that was the push. I think without the call, he doesn't get there. But once he's there and he realizes something is up, he's like, yeah. I I want I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna make it for my family. And I think that's for the father he's been, that's something at the very least.

35:33KT: For the father he hasn't been. Yeah. And I guess that brings up a conversation of redemption and also forgiveness. I think maybe I just got more frustrated at Vince. But as the show went on, I started to have a bit more graces towards Jesse. Like when he was first introduced to the show, I just It was so abhorrent. I didn't wanna see his face. He was really frustrating to me because why do you get to choose when you walk in and out of Mana

36:05KT: and Tai's life? Like that's not a cool guy. So yeah, it was interesting and his character arc was definitely a touching sort of exploration of what it means to dedicate your life and decades

36:22KT: to the sport of rugby. And a lot of the time he'll talk to his sons and say, rugby is not everything after you're done with rugby, what else have you got? True. And I guess he learned that lesson too late. Yep. Speaking of on their way to making the lesson too late, Mana. Who knew? Who knew? Because when he was first introduced, he came off a bit more tentative than Tai.

36:44Oti: Tai came off as the asshole. We get to see Mana in a in a in a in a in a varying range of spectrums, I think. Yeah. At the very start, we see him as super responsible and dependable. And I think that we also need to understand that he's also a kid because at the very start, take him as he's all grown up. Like, he he carries himself like, you know, I'm the captain. I do things very responsibly, but he's still a kid, man. You know? He's

36:44KT: Not in season two legally.

37:18Oti: He's still a kid and he'll still do dumb mistakes and all that. Yeah. But we we we get to see him in his in his in his different sort of hats, and I think he's a very cool character in that.

37:34KT: Yeah. He definitely was learning lessons that he was, you know, he was the lesson learned for Sade as well. You know, it sad that I would even say slut shaming. There was slut shaming in regards to Sade, which was sad. Even from Mana's direction as well, which was very sad. Like she was the easy go to joke to make about it. And Mana pretty much just used her to his disposal, which was very sad. And obviously that would fuck you up at any age, but particularly

38:08KT: being of school age, like you can only imagine how much that must have affected Sade. But we do see a very interesting development between Mana and Frankie. Yeah. Who Mana meets on a night out with his dad, Jesse.

38:25Oti: Yeah, Mana gets smitten and he slowly becomes Frankie's

38:29KT: Sade. Yeah. That is the sweetest taboo, is it not?

38:29Oti: It is.

38:29KT: Oti is my smooth operator, But it was very interesting. But can I just say, can I just say, there was a baby qualm and the baby qualm was Mana's age because Frankie, I guess the next time they see each other is when Mana's at their house? Right? No.

38:56Oti: She comes to pick Yes. Up

38:58KT: She comes to pick up Imogen at their house and she sees Mana in the school uniform. Right then and there, that's it. Like, I'm never I'm never seeing you again. I never spoke to you. I've never met you. Who are you, sir? Stay out of my bed chambers. Right? But when they went to go and have coffee, which Vince laughed at saying, what do you mean you gotta drink coffee? And then he orders hot chocolate. Right? Fine. We all indulge in the nice hot chocolate. But, you know, she asks Mana

39:31KT: how old he is and he says 18. And she's like, yeah, no worries. Okay. Like, there was no questioning. There was no questioning. He's still in a school uniform, but you're like, okay, yeah, no worries.

39:41Oti: I'll repeat it a year, mate. I'm 18. Don't you worry. Trust me.

39:48KT: Exactly. It's that trust me at the end that was very interesting. But because she didn't seem to have a problem and it was never questioned in the show, I'm like, okay, I guess he is legit. Because nowhere in anywhere else was it noted that he was of age. So we're just like, okay.

40:02Oti: We do get to we we are told that he does repeat though. So maybe that's an implicate implication that, you know, he is old. He's 18. Yeah. So

40:17KT: Oh, but that definitely hit him deep, but also he kinda deserved that. The way he was treating Sade and the way that he couldn't see the correlation, even after Renee, you know, found out and said, you know, give her a gift and, you know, don't treat her like that. We don't do that. I didn't raise you to do that. Right? He still continue to treat her like that. So it was a nice eye opener. And Frankie had that stepdaddy money. Like, why?

40:42Oti: But

40:43KT: it seems like Frankie did catch feelings though. Yeah. But I think it was that post coitus daydreaming cigarette talk. You know what I mean? Like, she was just fantasizing. But you know what I don't understand? She wasn't together along with Imogen and Steven's dad. So it must have been a money thing because if you did love him, surely it doesn't take that long to fall out. One of, I guess on a lighter note, one of the funny moments

41:11KT: when Mana and Frankie meet for the first time is, you know, when it's after the club and you need something greasy to fuel you. They were talking about places that they've been, right, or places that they wanna travel. And Frankie says Madagascar and Mana thinks they're talking about the movie with the zebra. Man, it should have been that moment where, you know, Frankie puts the, like, the red string together and she realizes Yep. I need to get out of here. This is a child.

41:49KT: Yeah. Yeah. That Mana is a baby boy and not in a Tyrese Gibson way. Let's move on to Tai.

41:55Oti: Man, he I didn't know how to feel about him when the show started. I felt like he was gonna be spoiled and all that. But he's he slowly became my favorite in the show. Yeah. He's very caring. He he's very passionate. He's very different from Mana as well. Yeah. And

42:14Oti: he just wants to do what's right. And I was like, bloody hell, where did this come from? Yeah. How did he mature to be this? But he is Renee's son. So so that explains it. But he cares so much. Yeah. Because when we got introduced to him, he was like throwing tantrums, saying Vince wasn't his dad. I was like, I

42:34Oti: don't know why I care about this kid. Yeah. But, wow, he does grow into himself and he really does stand up and just goes with it. And the fact that he joined the debating, you know? He just needed you know what? The characters just need a bit of pushing, just a nudge to get them out of their comfort zone and to just, you know, and you'll see them shine. Yeah. Like every

42:55KT: everything about Tai's like character development, beautiful, lovely. It played like a sonnet. Yeah. I just love everything about Tai. I still don't I don't know how I feel, but I also didn't really like the pseudo alluding to between Tai and Steven. Like, if there was a genuine connection there to be had, I would love that and let's pursue it. But I don't think it was like, it was kind of like a tease, like a suggestion that they could have potentially been a relationship there. And then they didn't fully explore it. Sex Education,

43:39KT: go and watch your Friends and Lovers if you haven't already. I'm not gonna spoil it fully. Actually, no, I can't really spoil it. If you haven't watched past the first season, you won't know. But there are two gay characters and one of them is fully out and the other one isn't. And there's a dynamic where it just can't work. Right? And the character that is fully out chooses not to because again, it's a whole experience. And that kind of happens with Steven or at least he says that particular line. Like,

44:13KT: I I I we I can't fuck around with you unless you're out. Right? And he said that, but then it was never really picked up on for the rest of the show. And that frustrated me because I'm like, it's fine. It's fine if that's where we're going with Tai's character, but nothing really

44:28KT: is touched upon in regards to that. And then we just leave a flapping in the breeze. So that kind of bothered me. But that's just that's the only thing I would say about Tai's character that I wish would have been explored more. Fair enough. Are they minded at all? I did like their friendship between Steven and Tai and the way he went and looked after him as well. Do you have anything to say in regards to Imogen? There's obviously a lot of background and context with JW. I don't know if

44:58KT: at some point she actually did like or love Tai. I think again, she was just drawn to him because he has that magnetism and he's that genuine sort of kind person. But then again, it might've been JW's doing for her to befriend him as well. How did you feel about Imogen?

45:14Oti: I think I don't know. I didn't really same with Tai. Like, I didn't really care about her at the start, but the more we get to learn about her and the layers that reveal, they're just deeper from the sort of selfless level that we have shown at the start, then we start to care about Imogen, you know, and their

45:37Oti: her friendship with Tai also just blossoms into something, you know, quite nice and caring. And you can see, like, oh, wow. These guys actually do care about each other, you know, and that without all the sexual nonsense around it as well. So good for them, man. I think the saddest bit was Imogen and JW. Fucking hell, JW is a creeper. He's absolutely

45:59KT: a creeper. And I like that they, you know, that they hold him accountable near the end of season two. I also think it's sad that with Imogen's character, because she's not the quiet one in the corner that everyone worries about. I don't know. I don't know what it is about human nature, but because again, she wasn't that quiet person, reserved person, it was easy to slut shame her. And it wasn't just like normal slut shaming, it was her involved with a grown whole adult.

46:33KT: And somehow it's all her fault because she's been baiting and then teasing him. It's disgusting. It's weird. It's disgusting and it's the world we live in. But I do like the way that it was explored. And again, Tai being the strong foundation of this show really held her hand through that. And even when she was feeling a bit hesitant and she wasn't sure about it, he got her to go and see Renee and they took the statement and it was very frustrating, but I also appreciate I appreciated the bluntness of, know,

47:08KT: Renee having to prep Imogen that, you know, we believe you and we're going to pursue this, but just know that this isn't going to be a great process for you. It's fucking wild and it's not fair, but I do like the way it was addressed and the way that Renee cared so much and she did so much. And they were able to find one of the other survivors as well. She showed up at the game and JW's face was kind of worth it all, wasn't it?

47:08Oti: It really was.

47:41Oti: It was once he realized, oh shit, Imogen has brought someone else in, you know, it's no longer just this little girl crying out wolf. Yeah. She actually has proof now, you know. And the fact that we get her, you know, we they get to make her be the one that submits the police report, and JW is like, oh, she's just a kid. She doesn't know what she's talking about. Yeah. And the cops are like, what kid are you talking about? This a bit this person person is a bit this was an adult. So

48:13KT: that was that was a really that was really nasty, darling. Yeah. And I I hope, you know, if the show gets season three, I wanna see the the full hand of the law slapping JW in the face. Let's talk about Aria very quickly. She is a very important part of the show and of the whanau as well. Also, kudos to the show for, you know, touching the topic of abortion. It's not an easy topic, and in most cases, it's always from a more extreme sort of example, we talked about it in our Shy episode,

48:56KT: but usually in stories, there is a lot of guilt and there is a lot of shame if there is the choice to follow through on abortion as opposed to continuing the pregnancy. And I really love the delicate care, but the fervent commitment to explore this topic because it is something that is very important. And, you know, wherever you sit in regards to your personal opinion, it really has nothing to do with the particular people or also characters in regards to the show. And I love that Renee was that gentle loving hand

49:43KT: that was there with Aria to guide her through this decision. That it's not going to be an easy decision, but it's also going to be a lifetime decision as well.

49:54Oti: And that's where we see the closeness with Aria and Sade as well start to form. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was really nicely done. We got to see that covered in such a show, which I didn't expect to see, to be honest. So Yeah. That was a nice surprise. And the fact that we get to see Aria also have her own interest aside of rugby

50:15KT: Yes. And not

50:16Oti: feeling the like she needed to burden the dad with, oh, come and watch me, come and support me because it's my finals, you know, but you have rugby. It's alright. Yeah. Like, it's sad. It's sad. She she really did love you know, you could tell that they're really close with Vince. Yeah.

50:35Oti: But wow. I think to the point where Vince took it for granted and just thought, Aria will understand a lot of the stuff because she knows how important one is for me. Yeah. So yeah, I don't I can't I can't put too much. I don't need to put too much into the relationship or whatever because she's cool. She's all right. She'll understand.

50:56KT: There are so many cultural, religious, societal ties in regards to abortion. And I love that Renee just disintegrated all of them and just focused on what was best for Aria. And you know, like I just fucking love it. And I hope everyone has that support system in their world, but let's continue on with Christian. He creates such an impact. He kind of is the catalyst for a lot of the growth of the characters Christian.

51:31Oti: True. Yeah. Like we said, he dies quite early due to a concussion that goes unchecked or untreated, but with his death, we get to see Riley blossom, know, where he's a kid who's quiet in the corner, no one really pays too much attention to him, even the mom, especially the mom, and we see him sort of grow into this confident character that understands, you know, I'm actually valuable,

51:59Oti: actually can do a bit of things, and artist Vince introduces him into rugby and he gets to be part of something bigger, which I think he felt like he would never do because it's Christian's thing. He felt like he was always under the shadow of Christian and he could never do anything that would impress the mom, which was sad.

52:19KT: I guess also coming from the point of view that, if all you need to do is wake up, eat breakfast and go to school, that's a pretty good life to have. That's not what Riley had, right? He had a mother, maybe depressed. I'm not qualified, but you know, if she goes around outrightly saying she has a shit of a son and he's worthless and he's nothing, it's definitely not fair on Riley and you know that would affect him. So he's coming with that baggage and also

52:51Oti: because he he never wanted to pursue rugby like you said, because that was Christian's thing, not knowing that that could have been his own thing and he could have been really good at it too. And we get to see also Gab Gabriel say that the reason why he hates Riley so much is because this the sooner has she gotten pregnant with him, the husband left because, hey. I ain't doing no two kids. Yeah. So he

52:51KT: Is that you, Ving Rhames?

52:51Oti: Yep.

53:16Oti: So he's put she's putting all that into Riley and all that emotion, and she says that she hates herself for it, but it's what she feels, and it's just fucking sad, man. Layers, man. Wow.

53:30KT: Passing down of traumatic layers, I tell you. Mhmm. Alright. Really, I just want to talk about Nico and Mitch to finish off with. But just quickly, I love Rajiv. Rajiv is me. When he had to take over with the coaching and he said, grab the ball and run with the ball, that's me. That's my extent of sports Yep.

53:54Oti: I concur.

53:55KT: He does as much as he can for the school. Like, he loves South Down High, but also he's very astutely aware of the limited resources that they have. Speaking of unlimited resources, we have Mitch who is the moneybags. He is bankrolling South Down High. He was a very interesting, maybe all the way mustache twirling villain of this series because he had so much interest and you're wondering why. Right?

54:29KT: And he was filling and lining Vince's pockets. Yep. Not him specifically before the rugby, but Vince and rugby are one. We we learn. We come to learn with this show. And you know it's not gonna end well. Yeah. I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop because it'll be fucking massive. Yeah. Like if he's continuously paying for everything, he's going to recoup that in some way or the other. And you start to see that because he he very obviously

54:59KT: controls it. He's like the soft power of South Down High. Yep. There's no fucking free money, mate. Oh, absolutely not. I wanna talk about Mitch's homophobia. There's no other way to say it. Thoughts?

55:13Oti: He's a crap dad. He keeps on taking Nico to different schools and towns because either a, people have found out that Nico is gay or he thinks that it's the influence of bad neighbors or surrounding kids, which is fucking ridiculous. He's old fashioned. He's like, you know what? You just do rugby, focus on rugby and nothing else because if you come out as gay in a sport like rugby, which has a lot of Homophobia. Yep. Then that's the end and yeah, which is fucking ridiculous.

55:50KT: And the interesting thing that we see, well, it wasn't fully introduced at the start, you know, he was just talking about him hanging around a bad crowd. I'm envisioning leather jackets and, you know, snapping down an alleyway. But Nico isn't hiding the fact that he's gay. He's also not proclaiming it, but he's not hiding the fact that he's gay. And he doesn't have a problem with who he is. It's more Mitch being unable to accept it. And, you know, we talked about Nico being one of those kids

56:23KT: that, you know, it was either your cousin or your sibling, and they got like beaten all the time and you wonder why they kept talking shit because they knew they were going to get beaten. And maybe Mitch kept trying to beat it out of him and then he tried to move it out of him and it doesn't work that way. But I also feel like it's also very timely as well. You know, conversion camp still exists

56:49KT: in New Zealand and there have been petitions for it as well. So there's another bingo on social commentary for Head High. Wow. It's another touchdown in the For Your Reference podcast. This week, we're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference,

57:08KT: Oti.

57:08Oti: If you want more of that New Zealand goodness, I would say go and watch Boy. It's quite nice, touching.

57:16KT: Oh, aren't you a good egg? I don't know how it fares in 2021. So I'm not sure if I will fully reference Bro'Town, but shout outs to the show because I did notice Tai watching it when he was at Imogen's house. I will reference Whale Rider. I think we're also due for another rewatch Oti. Mhmm. If you would like to know how we ride the whales on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We're also on

57:48KT: touchdown is definitely how you score in rugby podcast if you like to leave a rating and review. And we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.