Goodfellas – Get Out of Jail Free card

Full transcript of Goodfellas – Get Out of Jail Free card.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. It is another course of our 2024 Reference Degustation. The second course, uh, for those of us that are joining us late in the tasting menu, our first course was a chef that was very, um, experimental taking all different flavors and tastes. And, you know, taking us on a full on journey, um, with the King of Comedy, we're going to get to a more assured, more crowd pleaser, you know, sort of offering in regards to the tasting menu and Goodfellas.

0:34KT: And for those that are looking for the upcoming tasting menu, we have The Aviator. The Irishman as well as Killers of the Flower Moon. Let's get on with the show.

0:48KT: Hey friends and the whore in 2R lovers.

0:51KT: Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT. And Oti. Welcome to our Reference Degustation, where we celebrate a month long celebration of sizzling Scorsese cinema.

1:03KT: Narrate the inner workings of made men. Schmuck on wheels, pantsuits, and double knits.

1:11KT: Never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut with Goodfellas this week. Wow. I knew we were going to get to like the Italian gangster mafia sort of genre. And for someone that still needs to watch Scarface. but I definitely have watched the Godfathers, even though I, I regard the trilogy as the first two friends and lovers.

1:39KT: Um, as far as I'm concerned, I stayed in Italy. Um, I'm very excited to talk about Goodfellas with you today, Oti.

1:49KT: before we get to our patron recurring themes. Before we get to our first impressions, uh, let's get into general information.

1:57KT: Again, we are going down the filmography of Martin Scorsese. This is based on the nonfiction book in 1985 called Wiseguy by Pileggi.

2:08KT: and also credited for writing. We have Nicholas Pileggi as well as Martin Scorsese. Goodfellas premiered in the Venice Film Festival, September, 1990. Something really cool about this Reference Degustation as we are going through all of the decades, which is very exciting. It had a budget of 25 million and a world wide gross of 47 million.

2:34KT: Yeah, so it definitely, um, if you listen to the box office stats of, uh, King of Comedy, it was definitely different in way of super stacked Brickhouse cast. We have Robert De Niro. Hello. It's nice to see you again. Rest in power, Ray Liotta, Joe Pesci and a whole bunch of people. And this, Oti, Oti, and this is why we're called For Your Reference.

2:58KT: It reminded me of watching Archer and the overlap with Arrested Development. Or even watching The Wire and the overlap with Oz watching this, like, I saw all of the overlaps with Sopranos and I'm like, we're taking Paulie seriously. Okay,

3:17KT: so let's get into our first impressions. I guess while we're here. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, morality, morality, morality.

3:28Oti: Oh, I had this as Goodfellas excels in detailing the protagonist's journey within the mob, with narration that enriches rather than detracts. Despite a slower final act, it remains gripping.

3:43KT: Oh, very nice. Succinct filmmaking, satisfying performances and memorable dialogue assures Goodfellas position as a classic in the genre and Hollywood. Mm. General thoughts, general thoughts. I would love to hear your general thoughts, but I do.

4:05KT: I don't know if I want to integrate this into all of the courses in our Reference Degustation, but so much of Goodfellas is present in a lot of not just cinema, but also TV shows, even outside of like the Italian mafia.

4:22KT: You know, even just shows to do with like crime or the drug game and that sort of thing, which is obviously a lot of credit and a lot of homage. It obviously wasn't the first to do it either. Uh, general thoughts, feelings, impressions. I definitely want to hear, but before we even get to that, for someone that still needs to watch Scarface and I definitely have a lot I need to feel, in my periphery.

4:46KT: Films as well as TV shows, even outside of the Italian mafia sort of genre, whether it's to do with like crime or the drug game, for example, you can definitely feel the notes, whether it's stylistically, whether it's character building, whether it's world building, you can feel the notes from Goodfellas.

5:07KT: You know, in a lot of TV shows and films now, not to say that it's the first. So I guess keeping that in mind. Is Goodfellas a part of Hollywood or is Hollywood formed as a part of Goodfellas slash Scorsese? Like, I guess it's a chicken and the egg type question.

5:31Oti: Yeah, I think a bit of both. He's done a lot for film.

5:34Oti: Um, even his work alone for, for Criterion. so he, he does a lot for film outside of his sort of directorial sort of role.

5:46Oti: So yeah, kudos to him, man.

5:46KT: Also Bong Joon-ho shouting him out in his speech as well. Like, I guess if you know, you know, in the director's circle and that sort of thing. But, you've, you've watched Goodfellas before, right?

5:58KT: What, what did it feel? Growing up, how does it feel now that you are a learned man of cinema quality?

6:04Oti: I enjoyed it more now. Okay. Back then I thought it was cool, but I think a lot of it was just over my head. In terms of, Oh, this looks cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But right now just delving into the storylines and then the characters in more depth, I appreciated it more.

6:22Oti: Despite the fact in my initial thoughts, I had it as a sort of lulled ending or final act.

6:30KT: Yeah, no, I agree with that as well.

6:31Oti: Yeah. And we'll get to that further on. I'm sure.

6:36KT: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I really loved it. Like I was even telling you how impressed I was. and we're going to come to rankings in a second, but I was very impressed with Goodfellas.

6:50KT: I wasn't setting out to hate it, but I was definitely impressed with how much I was enjoying. Just the pure making of cinema, you know, it even reminds me of, was it Reservoir Dogs where, um, you know, they have that scene where they're, it's like a little menial thing in life where they're talking about tipping, you know what I mean?

7:09KT: Like there's a way in which, you know, Tarantino as well as Scorsese can craft cinema that is enjoyable, that is delicious and you just want to eat it up. And, shout out to our patrons. We didn't get an N word count. I just really enjoy living in the world of Goodfellas, but I definitely agree with you.

7:30KT: we said spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, and we will talk into more depth, but I guess just so we're succinctly saying it for me, the runtime wasn't necessarily a problem. If we stayed in the world until Tommy became a, in quotes, made man, I think that was the, that was the highest peak we could get in Goodfellas.

7:49KT: Yeah, I think everything else can just be implied. It could be the Sopranos ending.

7:53Oti: Yeah. Before and after Tommy, I think it's a very clear distinction in the movie or what transpires after.

7:59KT: And it's just copying and pasting to the, to the rest of the characters, to Jimmy, as well as Henry as well. Okay.

8:08KT: so let's rank the films. Uh, which is also a lot of fun. friends and lovers go and check out our, Takashi Miike as well as Tarantino run. If you'd like to hear our rankings on those films. I'm just going to kick it off because I'm in so much love with, uh, King of Comedy. Shout out to our beloved Paul from Film Busters, worried about whether I'm going to start kidnapping Scorsese and De Niro, which I might, because I love that film so much.

8:34KT: Um. Where do you rank it? Because I'm, I'm saying King of Comedy is still at the top. Same for me. That's not to say Goodfellas is bad. No,

8:44Oti: same for me, man. It's from a narrative perspective, in as much as I enjoyed Goodfellas, I still can't shake off the ending. Whereas King of Comedy kept me glued up until the end.

8:58Oti: I couldn't, I didn't feel as if I was being taken for a ride just because I'm waiting for the destination. You know, it's not, Oh, no, we're waiting for his comeuppance, like, nah.

9:11KT: No, I get that. I think also it was a point of difference. Like it just felt very different. Like it felt like it just needed to be made King of Comedy.

9:22KT: but thank you to our patrons for contributing to common and recurring themes. again, I think this is where we start to see. The Scorsese wheel taking the Jesus wheel. so a lot of the themes that have been contributed will be talked on today, which is very exciting.

9:39KT: We're going to kick it off with direction slash stylistic choices.

9:44KT: This is coming from Brent long ass movies. It is a long ass movie. Well, I guess, you know, Brent didn't give us a definition, but what would you define?

9:55KT: As a long ass movie, I can also assist you because for me, it depends on the genre, but do you have like a general or a layered granular definition on what you would say a long ass movie is?

10:09Oti: It's longer than an hour 45 for any genre, for any genre. Oh, I have no business going up.

10:16KT: I thought you were a Jimmy Cameron baby.

10:18Oti: I am, but it has to keep me there for a reason. That's because they want to tell me the history of Batman as a fetus.

10:28KT: Wow. Of all of the Batman iterations, including Batman, like Ninja Batman.

10:36KT: I don't think we have that, Oti, your voice is needed in the comic book, graphic novel world, clearly Batman, the Amoeba. Um, I think if it's like a drama, I think over two hours is okay. I think if you're talking about your Marvel films. broad appeal, mainstream, whether it be Marvel or a rom com, yeah, I think an hour 30 is okay and hour 45 is pushing it.

11:07KT: If you're talking about biopics, I think over two hours is okay. If you're talking about a drama, I think over two hours is okay. so to that, I would say this was a long ass movie, but it It only becomes onerous when the momentum kind of plateaus. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, it'll be cool to hear what Brent classifies as a long ass movie.

11:32KT: Um, moving on with direction and stylistic choices. We have the same from two patrons. Rob talks about narrating. Julio talks about voiceover as an effective storytelling tool. So that, that actually has two tiers. So narrating tick, effective,

11:52Oti: very effective, very effective. Yeah, because we, we've seen our fair share of movies with just bad narration and this added to the story, it only described the actions of what's happening.

12:04Oti: It painted a picture way better than just portraying it on screen and It's the most effective thing so far.

12:13KT: I think it's also given the nature of the setting of the film, how you moved, isn't necessarily what you thought or what you felt. Yeah. You kind of had to navigate in very particular ways.

12:27KT: Otherwise you'll get got. Um, so I think the narration did very well to be able to portray that. How did you feel about dual narration? Cause it wasn't just from Henry's point of view. It was also from Karen again, Sopranos crossover. I was like, if you, if you don't look at like the, the all nation and you just focus inside of her face, that's the therapist from Sopranos.

12:54Oti: Yeah, uh, didn't care for it. Didn't care for it, bruv.

13:00KT: Why? I didn't mind that. It's not called the Irish woman.

13:09Oti: It's not called Good Ladies. But

13:11KT: it is called the dick Ortiz, yeah.

13:20KT: Dickhead. Um. Okay, but, uh, misogyny aside, what did you think about having two narrators, because it also served to challenge Henry's dialogue. It did. So it wasn't as if it was just there to be there.

13:40Oti: Oh, no, I found it very apt. Uh, I think it's needed, especially when it was used, because it doesn't come up until I think the third act.

13:48Oti: Yeah. And that's when everything's starting to fall apart, everything, at least Henry's trying to be, like you said, challenged. so I. Enjoyed it. Kudos to Karen.

14:01KT: Is that why I'm always in your head? Cause I'm constantly challenging my, my bro.

14:06Oti: Yeah. You need to deal with that.

14:10KT: Um, yeah, I, I really enjoyed it. I think, you know, people give sex scenes a bad rap.

14:18KT: yeah, friends and lovers are still available as intimacy coaches. Rings of Power didn't need us. So we're looking for other opportunities. but yeah, like, like sex scenes, narrations get a bad rap as well. And I don't necessarily care for narration, but I was like, okay, this works. Like I can get with this narration, um, moving on, we have very simply New York by Brent.

14:43KT: Yup.

14:44Oti: Yeah. And again, this is a setting.

14:45KT: Absolutely. It's the lifestyle. Um, the next one we have from Rob, Scorsese bingo: freeze frame, slow mo, slow mo, split diopter, tracking shots and extreme closeups.

15:02Oti: Yes, I would say, because I was doing some of the research and it was apparently such a famous shot.

15:07KT: Um, I did research too, motherfucker.

15:10KT: Or is it less valid because I'm the woman narrating?

15:13Oti: Again, Goodfellas.

15:14KT: At least treat me like the whore in 2R, she got more respect. No, she did not. Well, not from the wife.

15:33Oti: So it's the Copacabana tracking shot. It's a single cam shot. We call it a camera shot.

15:41KT: That's what we do. The cam shot is just for inside the home. Yes.

15:47Oti: That was pretty cool.

15:49KT: Yeah, I think that was really cool. Um, you know, what's so funny. It's like, I consciously have to sit there and think about it because I, you know, it's a joke now, but I mean it when I'm not aesthetic, like I actually don't.

16:06KT: and friends and lovers, I'm just going to call everyone out, film Twitter, critics, Letterboxd cuties, I'm calling everyone out. You say you're aesthetic, you say you love the cinematography, you say you love the directing, but why when you're discussing it's always about the story? Why? Why? Why aren't you sitting there talking about the millimeter camera that it's used on?

16:35KT: Why don't you talk about the little upskirt shots in the extreme closeups? Why aren't you talking about that?

16:38Oti: Have you not had this podcast? That's all we talk about.

16:43KT: Well, the upskirts, sure,

16:48KT: but it's just, it's really annoying. Like if you really care about, cause I, you know, like I love film podcasts. I love hearing people's opinions on film. People talk about how great things are shot, but then they never talk about in specific detail, how something was shot, the camera was shot on the angle.

17:06KT: It was used, the use of artificial light and natural light and all this sort of stuff. So I call bullshit is my point.

17:13Oti: It paints the overall picture. Doesn't it to your enjoyment?

17:18KT: You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying when people are critiquing film, they start talking about the story. So if it was shot so well, why aren't you focusing on those technical details?

17:29Oti: Because it's shot well. I think if it was anything that wasn't shot well, then it will become a talking point.

17:36KT: You know who you are in this film, right? I don't know. Tommy. I don't know.

17:43Oti: I'm a made man.

17:47KT: Um. Yeah. And then I also heard like they continue that tracking shot because that was the only way to get an entry into the restaurant. Right. So that's pretty cool. there was also a long tracking shot, uh, that took seven takes, that was inspired by The Untouchables. Um, his, so the next one we have is Brent historical retelling of real events.

18:15Oti: Yes, it does.

18:16KT: Tick, tick. I don't think we explicitly said it. It is based on a book, but it is based on the life of Henry Hill. the interesting thing is his wife also worked on a film at the time. But Henry didn't like that version. He preferred Goodfellas. So I guess, you know, your, your mendems just keeping, um, to themselves.

18:40KT: So, yeah, yeah. I think that's absolutely a tick. Does it help, does it help your enjoyment of the film or your understanding of the film to know? That it's based on true events.

18:52Oti: It doesn't for this really. Yeah.

18:55KT: Does it change anything for you? No, because it feels very real whether it was real or not. it wasn't that sort of Coen.

19:06KT: Extended fantastical reality, which I, I don't know. I still can't drive with it.

19:12Oti: It felt very, and maybe this is why the ending just didn't vibe with me. It very, it felt very crime doesn't pay, you know?

19:19KT: Yeah. Especially when we're given free reign in King of Comedy.

19:24Oti: Oh, I've got to be some ridiculous. He, for someone who was racking in so much money.

19:32Oti: Henry? Yeah. To be dead broke the second they go out of any sort of business.

19:39KT: It was the drugs, bruh. Doesn't matter. Alright.

19:45Oti: Man. Get a chain at least, bruv.

19:50KT: Okay,

19:51Oti: Kenya Barris. Put a grill on it. I don't know.

19:54KT: Okay, Kenya, Oti, Mr. Kenya Barris. Mm hmm. let's move on. This is from Julio. The minutiae of large scale operations presented as an entry point into our character's world and lifestyle.

20:10KT: I gotta be honest. I didn't really understand this point from Julio. But the moment we watched this film, I was like, Oh, okay. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

20:19Oti: It's, it's an open engaging to the mobsters world or life, uh, through Henry. Uh, we see how everything operates from, you know, a very distinct perspective. Uh, so this is met,

20:33KT: met.

20:34KT: Yeah, absolutely. And they all got caught. Um, I loved, I really loved the world building. I think it is, uh, people say masterclass. I'm sure Scorsese even has a masterclass. but it is really the way to introduce. A character through the inner workings of the world that he's a part of, I think understanding Henry's, uh, sort of hunger to thrive and he had a good understanding of what it meant to thrive in the setting.

21:09KT: I thought it was pretty cool. I personally, I was like, Oh, that was, that's a weird flex to mention that he's. That is Irish, but it like continues to fall into the rest of the film. I was like, wouldn't you like, you know, keep your Sicilian sort of heritage. But obviously that actually is into the literal veins, of the film as well.

21:34KT: But I very much enjoyed, you know, even, thinking about the scene that we had later on in the film where she's asking Jimmy for help. And he's like, yeah, go and pick one of those dresses. Did you anticipate that at the time? Something was going down or you weren't sure it felt very weird, but when did it feel weird?

21:56KT: Did it feel weird? Obviously when he's like pointing all the way down into that abandoned building Was it before then or was it around then when she had to leave to go and get the dress

22:07Oti: The moment he was so understanding to her Being, Oh yeah, it's all good. It's all good. Just tell him to, you know, keep, keep, keep it low.

22:17Oti: Don't say anything like, bruh.

22:19KT: And, and, and I, even I got so immersed in the film, I forgot that very. Directly, it was narrated that he doesn't give a fuck. He just kills with no feeling. Maybe. And I forgot that I was just like, Oh, okay. A dress. That's weird.

22:38Oti: But then there's still space for you to assume that nothing, he was not going to do anything to Henry.

22:46Oti: Okay. Even telling Henry towards the end to go. Because,

22:51KT: because of brotherhood, because of camaraderie, because of.

22:53Oti: Because maybe he would have done it in such a, in a, in a more obvious way. Rather than him trying to be like, Oh, we'll send you somewhere.

23:02KT: Interestingly, those that were in the world claim that Henry was small fry.

23:14KT: And the reason why I mentioned that is to your point, if Henry, cause obviously it's from Henry's point of view, cause it's based on the book. So he's going to be Goku. It's Dragon Ball rules, friends and lovers, because he says he is, he is. Um, we're not getting into power hierarchy today, but we do love

23:37KT: Bulma and Chi-Chi as well.

23:43KT: Um, but in regards to that, the reason why I say that is if he was small fry back to your point, Jimmy wouldn't have cared whether he killed Henry or not, or you think he still would have cared.

24:00Oti: I don't think. If you had wanted to kill Henry, there are ways, at least shown from that movie, he could have done it 10 times over rather than him trying to be like, Oh, we'll make sure this cafe, I will try and send you to someone so that I can get you got in some different state.

24:21Oti: Miss me with that.

24:25Oti: If this guy talks. You all rot in jail and you want to tell me that your, your only option is to plan this convoluted way of trying to kill him?

24:36KT: Yeah, no, I getcha. I getcha. But even, yeah, even when Tommy went for Batts. I was like, this isn't, this is not going to end well, that's that, that's that season finale shit, you know, but let's move on.

24:53KT: We have throwback films, Brent. Yeah. This definitely speaks to a time of nostalgia. and the next one from Brent again, crime slash gangster drama.

25:06Oti: The most gangster drama there is.

25:08KT: Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I would just personally like to know, Oti, where was this in your crime, gangster, drama journey?

25:18KT: Was it one of the first? Was it? What was your first, actually?

25:24Oti: Oh, Scarface. Ooh. Then Godfather, and then Goodfellas.

25:31KT: Okay. Scarface has a hold on me. He does. Do you think I'll like it? I love it. Okay. You already know Tony and Manolos. I do know Tony and Manolos.

25:51KT: All right. yeah, I don't think we need to say anything cause it literally is the thing. Uh, let's move on.

26:04KT: Shout outs to our Catholic boys, our resident Catholic boy Oti as well. essentially it's Catholicism, but let's read them through. Rob, religion or religious overviews, sacrifice, temptation, and the seduction of good by evil.

26:14KT: I wonder which film that would fall into because I don't think it fall in. To hear Julio Catholic guilt, that's a big one Catholic and then this has been Catholic guilt or just guilt revealing itself through self flagellation, self harm, mental or physical. Well, I guess the first answer is, was any of these met?

26:37Oti: No, I wouldn't say. Maybe being a snitch is a Catholic guilt.

26:41KT: Damn dog. Just saying. If I can be honest, I feel like the Catholic church could use more snitches.

26:49Oti: True.

26:52KT: Damn. That got heavy.

26:55Oti: Now we need more Henrys in the chat.

26:56KT: Thank you for bringing it back, Oti. And that's why, that's why we're a good balance, friends and lovers.

27:08KT: I would say the religion is being Italian, isn't it? I don't think Catholicism was at the forefront. Like you would see people with crosses and stuff. But I don't necessarily feel like that was integral to Henry's character, to Jimmy's character, to Tommy's character.

27:27Oti: It was integral to Henry marrying Karen.

27:32KT: No, but that was him pretending to not be Italian, right? Yeah, and the Rosary. No, but they were Jewish, right? So, but I'm saying It didn't have anything to do with the character motivations and the world building. No, it didn't. Exactly. But yeah, Catholicism could use more snitches. Put it on your merch, friends and lovers.

27:57KT: Be a Henry and join the church.

27:57Oti: Wow. If there's anything you take out of this movie, that is.

28:06KT: If there's anything to take out of the movie, it's something that someone said on a podcast, not the movie.

28:14KT: I have nothing else to say. I wonder maybe I wonder if any of the films will have this religion because it seems like it's such a heavy core. I don't think I've never seen Casino, but I don't imagine it will be in Casino. Um, but anyway, let's continue.

28:31KT: Rob, powerful cabals and the inner workings of absolute power.

28:35KT: Well, yeah. Oh yeah.

28:48KT: Speaking of, it was the religion of Paul, wasn't it? He was their deity. Um, everything had to do with getting on top, staying on top, or not getting got by the top, that was, stay a power bottom forever, just, just don't make waves, I guess.

29:00KT: Julio, violence as the means to resolve conflict.

29:04Oti: It's the only way they know to resolve conflict in this movie.

29:09KT: I'm glad you said in this movie

29:10Oti: from Tommy and countless people that lost their lives

29:19KT: and our Chris from Sopranos, the poor thing. Yeah. You got the eight mile treatment. Samuel L. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, actually.

29:30KT: Um, Speaking of Samuel L. Actually. Oh, wow.

29:37KT: This and friends and lovers watch this. There's no way these are connected, but he's going to find a way to connect it. Continue my love.

29:44Oti: Oh, I'm just going to say we've watched Scorsese movies. And I remember when you talked about The Departed, I felt like the way more N was thrown in there than I could have imagined.

29:56KT: Yeah. And different ways to describe black people in this movie. Yes.

30:02Oti: There's it's not just thrown. It's layered into

30:07KT: like it's baked into who they are and what they believe. Yeah.

30:15Oti: And I'm like, brah, I've not seen a black person in this movie. Yeah. Miss me. Why are you attacking me? Why is it, and I think there was this scene where though in the car on the only reason black people are in jail,

30:29KT: Henry was talking to Karen.

30:31KT: Yeah.

30:32Oti: The only reason black people are in jail is because they fall asleep in the car. And I'm like, this is, this is 40, 50 minutes in. I'm like, bruh, where are the black people? Why?

30:42KT: Just hit the end road and be good. Be done. Just get that, get that hit, get that burn and just move on.

30:50Oti: Come on now, man.

30:54Oti: Anyway, that just took me out of the movie for a second.

30:56KT: I was like, wait, what? No, and you're absolutely right because You know, whenever there are moments like that, like I always try and check in with you and like, are you okay? Even if it's like a little thing, you know, because we're sitting here trying to watch a film and it's like, what the fuck? Why am I being attacked?

31:12Oti: Last thing I expected in my mind when watching this movie for whatever fucking reason I should have known better. but it just threw me a loop because it's the same Scorsese.

31:19KT: Yeah. I was like, wait, what? Yeah. Come on now. Yeah. That first 11,

31:26Oti: that's pretty much no one we've seen up until that point.

31:31KT: Yeah. Um, and, and this is what I was saying to you, you know, after we watched Goodfellas, it's so interesting because film bros are eating well, friends and lovers. If you were to watch Tarantino films, and you were to watch Scorsese films, Obviously, you know, diversify your diet and have some other things to digest.

31:55KT: But even if you're just watching those two directors, you're eating quite well in regards to character building and world building, but they both seem to have a boner. For the way that they portray, or the way that they talk about black people slash characters. But I do find a difference in the two, and I would always concede to you, and whatever you have to say takes priority.

32:22KT: I feel like when Tarantino makes a film, even though there is a bigger question of should he be the one making these stories, even though I do really love Jackie Brown, and it hurts me to know who created Jackie Brown into a film. but my strawberry letter goes to Pam Grier, not to Jerome Tarantino. but it felt like a film that was made in a stylistic way.

32:47KT: That even a black director might've made in particular instances, you know, you talked about Emancipation play that and Django at the same time, um, compared to Scorsese when you don't have. Black people slash characters in their orbit. Not to say that it's better, but it just feels like they just want to say what they feel inside.

33:13KT: Does that make sense?

33:15Oti: Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you and I get it. Probably people talk like that all the time. Fuck's sake.

33:23KT: You've been on the internet, right? I've been on the internet is a thing. I know. Okay. Um, but yeah, not to say that like one is better than the other. I think it's both quite gross. you know, it's like either racist shit or like perverted shit.

33:40KT: And we just have to sit there and like, wait for those shit to stop happening so we can enjoy the rest of an otherwise great movie. Right.

33:53KT: Um, but interesting. And thank you for sharing your heart. Yeah. let's continue on. We have Julio. And this is in regards to the characters, that we see throughout the filmographies.

34:00KT: The idea that sooner or later our sins catch up with us and sooner or later you learn that crime doesn't pay. Boo! Julio, boo! I didn't want this day to come. Boo!

34:12Oti: Crime doesn't pay. Felt like a char felt like a story a parent would tell. A youngin, you know, and then they killed Tommy. And then after that, everything just fell apart.

34:26Oti: Hartman. And it's not falling apart. That just felt wrong. I was like, come on now,

34:32KT: but they were rich. Honestly, crime does pay, but they could have gone back to Sicily. They could have gone to Italy. They could have gone anywhere. They don't know where that is. Hey, I'm not doing Don't die, Sporashame. I'm not!

34:46KT: I have a homeland as well, Oti.

34:52Oti: They could have gone myriad of places.

34:54KT: No, but my point is crime does pay if they like, if they didn't stay where they were, they would have been fine because crime only pays if you're rich, otherwise you're indebted to the system for the rest of your life.

35:08Oti: If this, if Henry was a better financial planner with his fucking money, no way he's in this position.

35:17Oti: As soon as the ball drops, he's out.

35:18KT: How did you feel when he started to unravel? Were you vindicated, my love?

35:26Oti: I was like, he moved as if he, he wasn't killing people left, right and center. Yeah. At some point you've got to be prepared for shit like this.

35:33KT: Yeah. Like enjoy the spoils of war while you have them, but your time is coming, friend.

35:39KT: Yeah, man. I'm pretty sure mutter, he fell asleep at the wheel.

35:50KT: Um. It's interesting because I feel like Scorsese is morally neutral in the sense that it was very matter of fact, you had your wives for Saturday and then you had your girlfriends for the Friday, you told both of them to shut the fuck up, but you had their company nonetheless. Um, but it wasn't played as, this is something that's wrong.

36:17KT: It was just the matter of fact thing, even the violence that you see, in Goodfellas, it isn't qualified as a morally unjust sort of thing. So it's interesting to have. In my opinion, a morally neutral storyteller, filmmaker in Scorsese, but his characters do have that morality tip. Does that make sense?

36:41KT: It does make sense. Let's continue on with Julio.

36:44KT: Living by a specific code of conduct, whether you're a criminal or not.

36:50Oti: They tried to, to the best of their ability.

36:52KT: No, they had a code of conduct. Like everything. Tried to live to them. No, but everything they did. Was for the, for the mob, like for the organization.

37:04KT: I'm being facetious,

37:05Oti: but it was a point

37:07KT: where you're like night, night, motherfucker.

37:10Oti: Jimmy is coming to give Henry advice on, you know, go to go to your wife. This is what we do. Yeah. You know, I didn't just stay out all this time. I know you love my Italian accent as well. So.

37:26KT: Is that what that was? I'm nailing it.

37:28KT: Oh, I thought you were doing Ray Liotta's urban accent.

37:39KT: When the attempt to caricature becomes the caricature, friends and lovers.

37:45Oti: Not bad. They do live by a code.

37:49KT: Okay. You're just being facetious. That's good. Um, Ben, Marty cameo.

37:58Oti: I don't think there's a Marty cameo, but there is Marty's parents' cameo.

38:03KT: Mm hmm. the Mama Rai also on Don Cheadle's, Algae Rhythm Internet IMDb trivia.

38:09KT: there was a point on there saying that Martin Scorsese's mama. Didn't know the scene that they were about to have. And even the fact that, Tommy was going to be asking for a knife to like cut up that sort of thing. She just knew that they were going to come over and she was going to make them food, which I think it plays to that quaint sort of like, come here, son.

38:31KT: Um, and also when you showed me a picture of the dad, I recall it's when Henry was younger and he said you used eight aprons to clean him up. See, and that's also another example of, uh, I don't know, or maybe it's moral apathy. Maybe it's moral indifference, but you know, even, even that sort of thing, like don't help people mind your business sort of thing.

38:56Oti: Now, why waste fucking clean aprons on someone who's bleeding on the porch? Let him die, shoot him out.

39:04KT: You, you go to a different barber, don't you? Yeah. Um, Julio, the struggle to be spiritual in a materialistic world. I'm almost. There was nothing spiritual about Henry. Nada. I do want to talk about the ending, but yeah, we're almost at the end of these themes, friends and lovers.

39:28KT: So we have four here. We have conflicted protagonists who are charming and righteous in their cause. They really believe what they're doing is the right thing. That's from Rob. We have Julio, walking the tightrope when depicting morally compromised characters in a way that doesn't condone their actions, while also keeping them interesting as protagonists.

39:51KT: Ben, challenging protagonists who are ethically and morally flawed, yet human and layered. And Brent, heroic bad guys, relatable villains, usually loved for the wrong reasons by viewers, and he wrote the films in brackets, Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Mean Streets, Wolf of Wall Street, also friends and lovers. Uh, I'm pretty sure the Home Video Hustle will have Mean Streets, on their podcast feed right now.

40:17KT: So what do you think about this theme? We've talked a little bit about morality. I think what we haven't really talked about is whether, well, what's your potential sort of judgment on these characters? Do you judge them? Do you scorn them?

40:37Oti: I don't judge them per se, but I, I look down on them based off.

40:46Oti: Their indecision, not to figure out a way out, which is fundamental in this sort of life.

40:55KT: Interesting. I'm I'm here, but I'm not following you.

41:01Oti: The only person that wanted to saw an end game to this was Paul.

41:07KT: Okay. I need to pull you up on this because what's the difference between watching like even Godfather, I'm pretty sure you were along for the ride.

41:19KT: You have a qualm, and I usually agree, when people are trying to go legit and get out of the game, but you seem to be bothered with these characters. Is it, what, what was, what were those cute little dimple smiles saying?

41:35Oti: I'm, I'm bothered by the characters when they themselves are caught in a situation where they're surprised that they're in that situation in the first place.

41:45Oti: And I'm like, bruh.

41:45KT: Ghost put himself in that situation in Power. Stringer Bell put himself in that situation in The Wire. Franklin Saint put himself in that situation in Snowfall. Did they snitch? Franklin? Franklin didn't snitch.

42:02Oti: He wanted to.

42:05KT: How about Lulu?

42:10Oti: He's a work in progress, but at the end of the day he did not snitch.

42:15KT: To anyone that matters. Ghost was ready to snitch. Ghost was ready to be out. But that's my, okay. So let's go back because we're talking about conflicted protagonists with their morality being compromised. You're saying that you had a problem with them not having an exit strategy of wanting to get out, but you usually get annoyed when people try and get out.

42:41KT: So I'm just trying to understand the differences.

42:44Oti: I don't have issues with people trying to get out. I am. I have issues having set up a show or movie within the first five minutes of them signing, talk about how they want out of the game without doing anything for it. Without trying to make moves, proper moves to get out of that game.

43:07Oti: It's saving your shit. There's usually just, Oh, I don't know. I'm only going to do this this one time. Because I want to out of the game. I'm like, brah, commit or be out.

43:19KT: I just feel like you feel the way, a way that you feel about Goodfellas. That's what it feels like to me. Because I'm telling you, and if we're going to be real, real, real, real, real.

43:33KT: Yes, there is, there is crime, but also let's talk about, you talked about, you know, it being baked crime is baked into the colonial systems, even in the United States. So it becomes, and I'm pretty sure this is Goodfellas, like I wrote down the notes as well in the start of the narration, you know, talked about these are where you go when you can't go to the cops, this is where you go to help.

44:02KT: And they were talking about Paul, they were talking about the organization, right? There is a predatory nature to that. There is a, a squeezing of your own people at that. However, To, to be able to provide livelihood looks very different inside of the game than outside of the game where you're already treated as a criminal, if you're not already.

44:28KT: Right? I say the same things about Snowfall and you don't have a problem with it.

44:33Oti: I understand that, but they didn't show me that in this movie. They only said it.

44:37KT: They did it. They did it. You're right. They said it, but they didn't show me. I concede, I agree, but I also won't criminalize because you can be criminals.

44:49KT: Yes. But the standing of ethnic groups in the United States is not set up to thrive.

44:58Oti: You know what this reminds me of?

44:59KT: You keep that finger to yourself. So badly

45:03Oti: with your

45:03KT: favorite man. Okay. So we're calling this Goodfellas. The white man's belly.

45:09Oti: He was like, Ugh, I I'm for the people. I do this for the people.

45:15KT: Mm. He is been killing his people.

45:17Oti: Paul is out, he mothering people. The restaurant owner. He, he went because he wanted protection. Yeah. Only for his restaurant to be, to get burned to the ground. Yeah. What fucking help is that, miss me with that. This. They only say this shit to justify whatever the fucking shit they do.

45:42Oti: And I'm saying facts.

45:44KT: Within the movie, right? Yeah. Okay. Within the movie, you are correct. But I'm just saying, the grace I give is the grace I give everywhere.

45:56Oti: Mom wants to show us underdog story, but they didn't show that to us.

45:59KT: They weren't underdog, they were top dog the whole time. Bruh.

46:04Oti: I won't be feeling sorry here for singing Kumbaya to these people.

46:09Oti: Snitch fish should have gotten caught.

46:17KT: Are you okay just saying? Who knew? Just saying Who knew? You would be having more of a conflicted time watching Scorsese and not Tarantino. I don't think, I don't think you, you took such a moral stance.

46:32Oti: No, not a moral stance. I, I, I have a thing against people pretending that they're, they're doing something for altruistic reasons when it's not.

46:41KT: Okay. It seems like you have a problem with everything in this movie, but it's okay. You said it was a third act, but it feels like the first, second, then third act. Um, let's get to the last theme. And I do want to talk about the third act.

46:54KT: Julio, the toll of keeping unnecessary secrets from the people you love.

46:58KT: I think really the only sort of parallel I can draw, towards. Pupkin and Henry Hill's character is that they were just living their reality out loud. They didn't fucking care. Like, he didn't even care if the wife found out about the girlfriend. Like, he didn't need to lie because he just did whatever the fuck he wanted.

47:22KT: What do you reckon?

47:23Oti: Oh, yeah, he didn't care. The only secrets he was worried of saying is, you know, to the cops. Yeah. But other than that, everyone knew everything.

47:33KT: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's get, let's talk about the final act because I don't, I think of American Gods. Um, in that the world is interesting, not the main character.

47:56KT: Does that make sense? And without the world, there wouldn't be a main character. I dig that Shadow Moon, eh? You got your black tax because that white woman was the lead of American Gods. She was. Yeah, exactly. the film was interesting because of the world we were in. Henry was keel, but he was a view into the world.

48:19KT: So I think understanding the rules, seeing that Tommy, you know, like he, he didn't have any regard and he killed a made man. Like, nothing good was going to come out of that.

48:34Oti: And that's the only secret we're keeping, actually.

48:36KT: But I would say that's the only compelling, like, that's the compelling through line of the whole film.

48:42KT: So once you, like really, honestly, no one should be surprised because especially when, well, we find out later that Jimmy also isn't like full Italian, but even then, when you hear that Tommy's being a made man and Jimmy's not being a made man, you've got to, you've got to suss out that something's wrong.

49:04KT: Right. I think the execution style of him was very effective. It was very satisfying because it's like, bruh, you can't go, I guess you can, but like the way he was carrying on was so unpredictable, it was moving mad in these streets. but that really could have just been it. Like it should have just been that understanding that they to block and be done.

49:25KT: Understanding that the book was based on Henry Hill, it, it then makes sense why the film kept going, but it really slowed momentum because I don't think we learnt anything more.

49:40Oti: You know what they could have done? Fade to black, put pictures up there, say. Henry Hill snitched, is in witness protection, put some notes on there, be done.

49:51KT: No, but again, I don't think the runtime was a problem. It wasn't the runtime, it was how it was. It was the momentum, it was the pacing. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else that you, you want to say on behalf of your community or team?

50:07Oti: Let us relax, let us breathe. But I had fun with this movie.

50:15KT: Are you sure? Do you have out of body experiences?

50:22KT: Do you reach the eight lotus gates or what? Are you unlocking all of your chakras? Because you are not the same person throughout the recording, my love.

50:33Oti: No, I can, I can state, well, I can state things that Actually, I don't even think I've said anything that I didn't like about this movie per se.

50:44KT: You know the characters are in the movie, so when you say you don't like the characters.

50:49KT: That's part of the movie. Ah.

50:56Oti: I loved, actually, I loved, I loved the camera that was shooting in.

51:01KT: I loved. That's a call back to what I said earlier about the camera shots. You know what, friends and lovers, I can guarantee on opposite sides of the world, but I can guarantee Oti was that student in class that did the working out in front of the class.

51:22Oti: But in all honesty. I did enjoy this movie. The qualms that I had, I just thought, qualms. And I have qualms for a lot of movies that I do love. Is this a movie 10 for me? Probably not.

51:36KT: You're saying you have a lot of qualms for movies you love. Yet you're looking at me very intently.

51:43Oti: Again, you know,

51:45KT: I am but a movie in your cinematic universe, my love.

51:48KT: And that bitch narration. Am I right?

51:55Oti: Gotta tune that down, man.

51:57KT: What would you say are the tasting notes for this course? I thought it was a bit of a crowd pleaser. But if you are to be one of the crowd, you weren't best pleased. So what would you, how would you summarize the tasting notes of this course, Oti?

52:12Oti: You know what I'd liken it to? I'm not a big Merlot drinker, but it's, it's, it's, it's like Merlot.

52:19KT: You're saying it's lacking body.

52:22Oti: The unsatisfying body it's there, but it doesn't hold you down when you need it. It, it, it just wisps down your tongue and you're like, bruh, come back. Uh, no, but again, solid movie, solid narrating.

52:44Oti: There's a lot of things that I love about this movie. It's, it's a filmmaker's film from what I've read that I would know. Uh,

52:53KT: well, no, you can tell,

52:55Oti: you can tell that a lot of people love this movie. It has had a lot of influences or at least people have actually to this movie, to them even wanting to be filmmakers.

53:07Oti: So kudos, kudos. I love it from the aspect. Again, all the tools from narration, you know, to the zoom, there was some special zooms up in here. It all played a big part into making this film what it is today. it's like, even rewatching it after how many years now far out. It's still held my interest. And it was still, it's something that I'll probably want to watch later down the year when I want to get angry at Henry again, but yeah.

53:42Oti: And just like the Black Messiah, you know, I love that movie, but I had issues.

53:47KT: Yeah, evidently, are you ready for a revolution? Oti. Yeah, always. Um, yeah, I, I think I'm cool. Like I enjoyed. The experience, I didn't realize that we both had very different tasting adventures, in regards to Goodfellas. But, what kind of wine would you say I am, Oti?

54:20Oti: Cups off.

54:21KT: Okay

54:22Oti: when you're not.

54:22KT: Oh my. That, I guess that is a gift. Um, for the friends and lovers that stay until the end of the, podcast, if you can't tell, we're going to go, uh, cam shop, good filler each other in a second.

54:41KT: Um, but thank you friends and lovers for joining us on this journey. we don't do our For Your Reference segment because we. We'll be covering everything as a part of the tasting menus, so King of Comedy, we just did Goodfellas, The Aviator is coming up, we also have The Irishman, Killers of the Flower Moon, and also I will be doing a bonus on Patreon for The Last Temptation of Christ.

55:08KT: Be yanking on those robes.

55:10Oti: Yeah rather than just do I wait for passion with the cross to Jesus is joining the Avengers. Can you leave?

55:20KT: Can we live and can you leave hey vote he gives you life on Twitter, Instagram, Spill, Bluesky and TikTok. We're really, really trying please. Friends and lovers. Uh, we're @ForYourRefPod.

55:41Oti: Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

55:43KT: We're also on hashtag justice for the whore in 2R podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating or a review, I will see you guys on the next course. See ya. Bye.