Freddy vs Jason – Voorhees a jolly good Freddy!

Full transcript of Freddy vs Jason – Voorhees a jolly good Freddy!.

0:00KT: Happy Hallows' Eve, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. We are starting off with Quid Pro Mo. And if you've listened to our podcast, you know that KT and Oti are a learned people. So, of course, we're going to have learned friends.

0:17Clip: This is Alexa and Kelsey from the Psyched Podcast. Take the promo away. Hi. I'm Kelsey. And I'm Alexa. And have you always been curious if Winona Ryder is actually crazy? Are you dying to learn how to stay out of a cult? Then you should definitely check out the Psyched Podcast, the podcast where two psychotherapists analyze real and fictional figures from pop culture and tell you all about the obscure psychological phenomenon that your Psych 101 class didn't have time to tell you about. So grab your cocktail and head over to thepsychedpodcast.com

0:47Clip: and check us out. Don't forget to go to therapy and get your shit together. Bye.

1:16KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You got your host, KT.

1:16Oti: And Oti.

1:16KT: And happy spooky Halloween, guys. What a time to be alive. As you read the title, we are covering Freddy versus Jason two thousand and three.

1:37Oti: Best horror villains

1:39Oti: ever.

1:39KT: Freddy or not, here I come in Wow. Your Are you ready, Oti? Yeah.

1:48Oti: Yeah. Just trying to contain all my ghoulies.

1:51KT: Well, we hope you've taken a big nap because we are diving into the tonic of the two horror characters, and I know you'll definitely bring up Pennywise Oh. In this episode as well.

2:03Oti: Don't don't do.

2:05KT: So let's get into the stats. Director Ronnie Yu, who's who's a Hong Kong actor, he did direct also Chucky as well, and he's done quite a lot. He has quite a comprehensive sort of portfolio. Mhmm. You also have Damian Shannon and Mark Swift writing it. Originally, the final script was two and a half hours, and I'm so glad they called it into ninety minutes.

2:28Oti: Yeah. If that was today, it'd probably be a three hour movie. You're going to turn into like a Cloud Atlas situation.

2:35KT: No one you don't have any business doing long films like that. Cloud Atlas. Bloody hell. Hashtag never forget. Even your girl Halle Berry can do wrong apparently. So Freddy versus Jason came out in 2003. The budget, do you wanna guess, Oti?

2:53Oti: Oh, 20 mil?

2:57KT: 30 mil? That's amazing.

2:59Oti: Yeah.

3:00KT: The the CG wasn't great, but, know, in in horror sorts of movies, you kinda need to give it a pass.

3:00Oti: Surely, it got it got way more than that in once it got released. Right?

3:00KT: Yeah. But my point is in regards to the budget that they had, the but I think they achieved quite a lot within that budget.

3:00Oti: Yeah. They did. Yeah.

3:00KT: And worldwide gross, according to IMDb, a $114,900,000.

3:29Oti: That's a lot, especially for back then. Like, that's just amazing. Even now, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of butter knives. Yeah.

3:38KT: Definitely. Let's just do a quick skim of the cast. You've got Robert Englund reprising his role as Freddy. This was the last time he actually played Freddy in a film sort of capacity. We have Ken Kirzinger, who was quite new. This he's been a stuntman for Jason, but he actually played Jason in this film. According to IMDb trivia, they chose him over the original fella because he is a lot taller. So they wanted that David Goliath sort of dynamic in the film.

4:10KT: So we've got him. Oh, Kelly Rowland. Hey, girl. Hey. She's the third listed on IMDb, would you believe? Good for her. She did last in the movie. Good for her. And exactly. And that alone is accolades for all. So we have Monica Keena playing Lori. We have Jason Ritter playing Will, and a whole slew of characters in this film and a whole lot of references. Let's get into first impressions because this is a spooky reference bar mitzvah. I am all about the singing today. Let's just capture off, you know, horror movies generally,

4:49KT: what Halloween was like if there is a Halloween in Kenya. I think everybody would love to know that exists. And the Freddy and Jason sort of dynamic, what did you think going into it? And I guess we'll dive into the film after that. So Oti.

5:07Oti: Wow. Where do I start? Like, I was a fan of Jason and Freddy from a young age, and the fact that they did this, I think it blew my mind at the time. I wasn't allowed to watch this when it came out back then, but I think two years later, I just snicked in snicked in a DVD and just went to town, it was bloody amazing. A lot of people took it too seriously, and they they forget what this is. This is just for fans of the horror movies getting to see the two

5:42Oti: walls collide and just to see the best of both Jason and Freddy. I know like, I I personally, I really enjoyed this.

5:42KT: In your circles?

5:42Oti: In my in my circles. Yeah. We we really did. We're not really there's we we are aware of Halloween in Kenya, but I think that's just an American thing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think anyone just goes trick or treating, mate. If you have candy in your house, that's your candy. No sharing and shit.

6:15KT: Exactly. Right?

6:17Oti: Yep. If your parents are good enough to get you candy and then you give it away to other kids, nah, mate. It's not happening.

6:24KT: Right? That that's how you see the true colors. Yeah. For sure. There are casualties in the candy war in Kenya.

6:31Oti: Even that, I'll be giving you one candy and that's it.

6:34KT: Bloody handfuls. You give me a lot of sweet tings, don't you worry?

6:39Oti: But it's just I really enjoyed this. Like, you mentioned, we'd probably mention Pennywise in this movie,

6:49KT: But I think You you dude, if I took a shot every time you mentioned Pennywise while we were watching this film, I would be passed out. Like

6:58Oti: No. I I feel like Pennywise is put on a pedestal for some fucking reason that I don't understand. Probably because of Tim Curry. And and the fact that we have Freddy and Jason who have such a really strong backstory as well.

7:14KT: Wow. Okay.

7:16Oti: I'm just saying, There's a lot of canon out there and a lot of because well, back then, I used to read the comics as well, and it was just I don't know. I'm I'm just a fan.

7:16KT: Freddy and Jason had comics?

7:16Oti: Yeah.

7:31KT: And this is where if there was a if there was a Venn diagram of KT's expertise circle and Oti's expertise circle, this is where they would not touch.

7:31Oti: Oh, they would touch.

7:31KT: Alright. No touching. It's an Arrested Development reference.

7:48Oti: Yeah. But it's just I don't know. I might be biased, but I'd take Jason and Freddy every day over Pennywise.

7:58KT: I don't think anyone was putting in them in the ring together. You did?

8:03Oti: No. You did. Well, I just went with it then. But

8:03KT: Listen to our It

8:09KT: our It episode, which the most recent chapter one and chapter two with our best friend Skarsgard in there because Oti had some spicy tings to say about Pennywise as a character. Not the Skarsgards because we do stan Skarsgards in the For Your Reference household.

8:09Oti: No. I think if you ask anyone,

8:31Oti: mention a horror a horror movie villain or something, yeah, and the first thing would be, like, Freddy or Jason. No. I don't think anyone would be like, oh, Pennywise.

8:41KT: But as a child, the imagery of clowns was fucking terrifying. Clowns were fucking terrifying,

8:49KT: and that's what makes Pennywise so effective.

8:49Oti: Mate, give me a guy in a hockey mask who is hard to kill, and I'll be frightened more than a clown.

8:49KT: Time to float, Oti.

9:01KT: Oh, you can piss right off. I'll just tell him he's small and he'll disappear, won't you? You're small. Yeah. We actually eradicated toxic masculinity in the It Chapter Two and Chapter One episode. So you're most welcome. Feel free to check out our other questions. Episode at a time, my friends. Okay. So is it my turn Yeah. For first impressions? You know what? And we Itch It Chapter One and Chapter Two, the recent ones from your fellow relative, Andy Muschietti Mhmm. Because you're point zero zero zero zero five Argentinian.

9:36Oti: Oh, yeah.

9:38KT: We said it on the podcast, so it's true. I think that's the first traditional horror that we've actually covered at For Your Reference. We've covered Upgrade. We've covered Get Out. We've covered Us. Us as a movie, whether it's a horror. You know? No. It's a horror, not a movie, rather. We haven't really covered, like, juggernauts in the horror sort of community. So why not cover Freddy versus Jason for our Halloween episode?

10:07Oti: Yeah.

10:09KT: Halloween is kind of a thing in Australia. You know, Australia is kind of like the annoying younger sibling to America where we try and just copy what they do and we don't really know why we do it. We just wanna be because I thought this was America. So Halloween is kind of a thing, not really a thing in Australia. But in the For Your Reference household, we do love a Friday night horror movie.

10:40KT: I'd like to think.

10:40Oti: Growing up Mormon and and being Tongan, was Halloween a thing like in your circles?

10:48KT: Man, I left my circles alone and you brought it right back. You can have, like, faux horror, like, in the like, in when I was in the church, they would have, like what do they call them? Trunk Halloween, like outside of people's cars, they would have like candy and stuff.

10:48Oti: Oh. That doesn't sounds sus.

10:48KT: It wasn't it wasn't Catholic. Let's just let's just leave it because actually in Freddy versus Jason yes, Freddy and Jason were very scary, but there was some real shit going on. Like, with Lori's dad,

11:27KT: forget about it. Like, there was some real world horror going on in this film as well. But let's go. Let's capture off this film. As I've mentioned in a couple of episodes, and you've even hinted to now, I wasn't allowed to as a brown Mormon girl. I was not allowed to watch horror films. And then when I got old enough to watch the films, it kind of didn't like, Chucky, for example. It just didn't

11:54KT: scare me because you

11:54Oti: Chucky's creepy.

11:54KT: I mean, all the It feeds to your childhood imagination. And if you're not a child anymore and you've been through life and you've seen some shit, then a talking doll isn't really that scary. And how can you say Chucky is scarier, not Pennywise?

11:54Oti: Oh, I'd

12:12Oti: run away from Chucky faster than I would from Pennywise. Me, a doll that stabs people. A six foot something Kenyan man would run away from a little doll. My Kenyan legs would run so fast?

12:12KT: I don't believe you, sir.

12:12Oti: Oh, man. You just don't.

12:12KT: The optics alone.

12:34KT: Of a little doll?

12:36Oti: You can see a little doll. A doll with a bloody scar across its face. No, man. I'm I'm Dolls are creepy ass. Just kicking in the fucking head. Doesn't do shit. I don't know. If if you're if you're not scared of Chucky and you or Betty once said, there's something wrong with you.

12:56KT: I'm I'm surprised that it took this many episodes and this many years for you to realize that. There you go, guys. So let's start off with this film. It really centers on Lori's character. So, you know, she she's she's been damaged by the death of her mother, which she through her boyfriend that was in the mental hospital Yep. She finds out that her dad killed mom. Mhmm. Spoiler spoilers spoilers. But, you know, we're all here for the spookies and all of the spoofies

13:31KT: as well.

13:31Oti: Oh, spoofies. Yeah.

13:34KT: The spookies. So you know? And then further on in the film, we find out that it was actually Freddy that killed

13:43KT: her mom.

13:43Oti: Yeah. The doctor just try to cover Oh.

13:47KT: Oh. Can I just say because I've we've watched Nightmare on Elm Street, the first one, and we've also watched the first Jason film? Mhmm. So that's as much reference as I have in my frame of reference. But I fucking love Freddy. He is sassy as hell. And we'll talk about who we think should win or did win. Yeah. But I live for Freddy because one of the lines that he has is when he says, I've got something for the whores in this house. He's talking about the mom.

14:22KT: Oh, he's so sassy. I am here for it.

14:22Oti: He's sassy, and you have two very distinct characters in Freddy and Jason. Mhmm. Jason is this quiet one that will just slash anyone his path. And Freddy has this personality to boot and will just speed out one liners that will make you giggle and laugh your pants off. So I'm definitely the Freddy of this outfit. Maybe the Pennywise.

14:48KT: Wow. Don't take a shot every time Pennywise is mentioned because you will be on the floor as well.

14:57Oti: But, yeah, like, I really enjoy this. And and the fact that you you have, like, just the sort of fundamental basics when you went to watch when you watched Freddy and Jason and just watching Friday the thirteenth Mhmm. And Nightmare on Elm Street. While I've watched the whole thing,

15:16Oti: it's just

15:16KT: Oh, ho ho. Sorry. Let's give Oti some time to pull his glasses off.

15:23Oti: You're right. Brag up there. But it's just like, it's enjoyable. Like, did you not have fun just watching this? I did. Compared to the nonsensical thing that we watched in It Chapter Two. Sorry. This is the last time I gotta mention it. Like, it just pissed me right off. And I just had fun. It's your slasher typical horror movie where you you go in, you know exactly what you're gonna get Mhmm. And they delivered it in tenfolds.

15:50KT: Oh, yeah. Certainly. It was nice to see them bounce off on each other as well. According to IMDb trivia, because we are very learned around here, apparently, there were early drafts of Michael Myers versus Jason, but they were saying that they were a bit too similar. So that's how we got to Freddy versus Jason, if you will. Also, according to the trivia, there were two twists

16:15KT: that they were going to incorporate into the film, but they decided they were too contrived. Would you like to hear it, sir?

16:15Oti: Oh, tell me.

16:15KT: So the first one is that Freddy either raped or consensually had relations with Jason's mom.

16:15Oti: Oh.

16:15KT: So he unknowingly fathered Jason.

16:15Oti: Oh. Can I just say, if that was one of the ones, I would throw something at the TV? Like, that would piss me off. Like, just really, like, really.

16:15KT: So that was the first one. And the second one was that Freddy was actually a camp counselor,

16:48KT: and he had something to do with the drowning of Jason. So this would have been, like, a culmination, a full character development of Jason coming to kill Freddy.

16:48Oti: Oh, that's kind of interesting. Because

16:48KT: It was kind of interesting.

16:48Oti: Like, Freddy

17:03Oti: we know that Freddy was given up by the mom because the mom was raped, and she was like, yeah. Send Freddy away and all that.

17:11Oti: So I think it would kind of tie in if the same kind of happened with Jason.

17:11KT: Yeah. But I don't, like, I don't like when films are too pretty and it's all tied up together because then it's like, really? I know we're living in a world where we have Freddy faces and Jasons that don't die, but give me some realism. It gets me off. Come on now. Right? Yeah. So those were the two twists that weren't incorporated because it would be too contrived. So

17:38KT: it's just interesting to think of it in that sort of format. So let's go back to Lori. Yep. She has her friends. We're just gonna call you Kelly Rowland, and you're gonna have to deal with it, love. And we've also got Gibb as well. So let's focus on Gibb and her boyfriend for a second. Yep. First of all, he was a fucking ass and a half.

17:38Oti: Oh, he he was a dick.

17:38KT: Right? Yeah. Think blank and a half is an Australian expression. You've never you never heard of it until you came here. Right?

18:09Oti: No. We don't bleep anything. We just say it out. No.

18:13KT: Could you imagine if we got bleeped on this podcast?

18:18Oti: It will just be an hour long of bleeping.

18:22KT: Just like a clean, like, rap song? Yeah. Get, like, ten seconds of Eminem saying the and and.

18:29Oti: A kids bop version of For Your Reference.

18:35KT: Oh god. Oh, yeah. And then instead of us swearing, it can be Theo licking his balls.

18:41Oti: That kind of I think that would get censored as well. Won't get censored.

18:44KT: So nothing will be allowed, essentially, to air. But let's go back to it. Her boyfriend was an ass and a half Yeah. All the way through and through. You could see inklings of it because as soon as he came to the door to greet Gibb, which is presumably his pseudo sort of girlfriend, he was asking. And just smell like cigarettes. Go get some menthol. Like, he was

19:10KT: he he really tried to keep her down. But the way he was acting was like they've been married for forty years. Like, how do you get that much bitter resentment? Because again, these are supposed to be teenagers in school. It was quite clear that they weren't,

19:24KT: not to the level of Grease.

19:24Oti: Oh, Grease is another level. I don't think my granddad played her

19:32KT: played her high school. No, mate. And when they're in the police station, they're all like, we've sent out a curfew for everyone 18. And I was like, do they also send out a curfew for everyone 40 as well? But then, you know, we say that, but then we also feel uncomfortable where someone looks like a teenager and they're having a sex scene. Insert Spartacus. Yeah. Oh, insert Spartacus everywhere. Thank you.

20:00Oti: But, yeah, like, Lori and Kia are really cropped fans to Gibb, I think.

20:00KT: Yep. So let's go back to Gibb and the boyfriend.

20:07KT: And he so he was being really dickish, and he was like, I'm not gonna tell you a second time. Oti knows better. And I think he values his life enough to know not to say that to me because not only would this podcast be over, but it's a wrap everywhere. So it was very it was very satisfying. I was really worried because sometimes when you have dickish characters, they last way too long. But he die he was the first one to die.

20:07Oti: Oh, I knew he was gonna die.

20:39Oti: You just don't have such a character in a horrible movie, especially, like, Friday the thirteenth and think that he's gonna last now.

20:39KT: That was so fucking satisfying, though.

20:39Oti: Yeah. It was so Especially the brutality it is. Yeah. The brutality of it all. It was it was it was quite satisfying.

20:56KT: Oh, it was so I was like oh, yeah. It was great. All you needed was Jerry Springer to come in the corner. Oh, no. Yes. Actually, in both ways, to come in the corner. You're most welcome. It's For Your Reference, guys. Happy Halloween. And then we also had Gibb in the shower. The actress that plays Gibb signed on to the movie on the direct premise that she would do no nudity, and then you have mister director man asking or trying to get her to do a nude scene. So there was a lot of friction

21:29KT: on the set.

21:29Oti: But that's a really dickish thing to

21:29KT: It is dickish. Like, it's it's like, okay. It is a horror movie. It might kinda be expected, but she actually had a clause in her agreement

21:41Oti: Yeah. As well. Especially with the, like, the Harvey Weinstein thing that made a little bit of this sort of practice of how to get people to do nude scenes came out to the light. It's a bit when you see these scenes now, you're like, how consensual was this? You know what I mean? Like, anyway

22:00KT: Well, people are getting stuff out of it, not just the actors. Yes. For sure. So very, very satisfying death right off the bat. And I think it was it was enough to satiate you, so let's move on. You know, like, we've got this kill. He was a dick, so let's continue on to the rest of the film. Right? I also thought it was quite an interesting premise of how they even brought the Freddy Jason dynamic into fruition because Freddy essentially became redundant because

22:32KT: no one was scared of him. And, you know, shout outs to the town. That was a whole effort to make everyone about it. Yeah. And everyone that remembered Freddy was in a mental hospital being dragged out in Hypnocil

22:45KT: or something like that.

22:45Oti: Hypnocil. It's just the level of and this is what you get. You know exactly the weaknesses of the character, and you play to your strength. And they apply this so perfectly compared to other movies that I said I won't mention. And it's so well executed until things start going haywire when we have Will saying, you know, on the news that something someone had died in Lori's house. Mhmm. And that's what triggers Freddy coming back into the town.

23:18KT: But it's it's it's actually quite an achievement that this small town was able to suppress this whole secret because of because of years and decades of living in the Freddy Krueger world, to think that the rest of the world doesn't even know about it, that is an achievement. So shout out to all of the caring parents and the caring members of the community that were able to hide such a big secret.

23:46Oti: Yeah. Right?

23:48KT: So for a long time, Freddy essentially was rendered redundant, which shows you how useless he is. I guess it's similar to the scent of Pennywise because if you don't believe in him or if you're not scared of him, then he can't really hurt you. Yeah. So you have that similar sort of dynamic with Freddy. So he was just laying in wait, and then Jason became his proxy.

24:10Oti: Yeah. So this is quite interesting because you have Freddy in hell Yep. And he stumbles onto Jason. Mhmm. And then he gets to see Jason's weaknesses, which is his mother, and he brings Jason back to life. Who doesn't love a tasty Oedipus tale? Exactly. So Jason is back to life, and he's he gets sent to the town so he could scare people and people start remembering Freddy Uh-huh. Which is quite a genius plan. It's very effective. It is effective. But the problem now is, I think Freddy didn't think a long term what it meant.

24:46Oti: He thought Jason would be like, slash slash

24:48Oti: control him.

24:48KT: Exactly. He is like you said, he is a brute, and he kills to kill. He doesn't have situational awareness of, oh, maybe this isn't one that I kill. Yeah. Let me go back to camp and continue living my life of torturing kids that come to my place. Yeah. And that's exactly it. And we we've mentioned it a few times in our other episodes. One of my personal foundational

25:12KT: qualms is people taking too long to accept the fantasy world that they're in and the role that they're going to play. I loved how everyone was like, okay. This is Freddy, and he's back. You know? The cops were like, don't tell anyone, but Freddy's back. We need to deal with this. Right? And even when the kids finally found out, we didn't spend twenty minutes of trying to convince them. They're just like, oh, Freddy? Oh, and there's Jason? Cool. Let's get onto it. Let's just dive in

25:41KT: to the lake, if you will, of this film. And I appreciated that because you didn't need that back and forth. Yeah. And then we could just get to the grizzly sort of gore and action. For the same reason why we're watching this movie. Exactly. You know your audience Yeah. And you cater to that. Exactly. Pretty much. And I don't think I don't think well well, maybe maybe we maybe I did when I watched the first Friday the thirteenth that Jason is a fucking creep.

26:15Oti: Well, people are having sex in his backyard. Who is he to not you know, privacy and all, you're in his territory.

26:24KT: Well, technically

26:24Oti: His big brother, mate.

26:24KT: But, technically, that's the campground, so it's not his backyard.

26:24Oti: It's his backyard. Unless squatters' rights means ownership.

26:24KT: Exactly. The squatters' rights are everything. I love how we're debating property titles on the Freddy versus Jason episode. But he was a fucking creep. Actually, his mom was also a creep because spoiler spoiler spoiler, his mom was the one doing the killing in the first film, so she was the one watching in the barnyard. Yeah.

26:54KT: Well, the apple doesn't fall far, does it? No. It does not. But, man, that and the the actress that played the mother throughout the series consciously decided not to come back for Freddy versus Jason because she felt the role was too small for her. Thoughts?

27:10Oti: I didn't like that. Like, I think sometimes the story has to take, like priority and all like Yeah. It's just for the fans out there and it would have been nice to see her like I don't know even if it's for a second here and there

27:27Oti: it's

27:27KT: Yeah.

27:27Oti: Still worth

27:27KT: Like let's let's let's add to the crescendo Yeah. Of all the references and all the feels. Yeah. For sure. But the actress that played the mother for Jason, I think she was quite effective. Yeah. She made me feel bad about my childhood. So I I have a question for you, Oti. I don't know if you can answer this, but Jason seemed to have a deformity.

27:51KT: Was that after he died or did he have that already? Is that why he was bullied? He had that already, and that's why he was bullied. And that's why he was drowned

27:59Oti: supposedly. Well, there's like a gap where they really don't explain if he died when he drowned or he just washed up on the shore on the other side. So there's a lot of, like, people's theories and all about this, but he was already deformed, that's why he was being bullied and all.

28:17KT: But that's fun. It's fun to have a film that you can theorize over for Yaz and Yaz. And actually coming back to that, when we go back to when Jason comes to attack Gibb's boyfriend, they actually don't show right at the point of view of him getting stabbed in his back. Right? They didn't necessarily show you everything, but I felt it was super effective. I feel like in 2019, we're so used to seeing a close-up shot of the neck being slashed.

28:46KT: You know what I mean? The guts flying out and all And it's like you you it just becomes

28:51KT: something that you're used to seeing.

28:51Oti: Yeah. I feel like if it's in your imagination, you you can go as wild with it as much as possible. Yeah. And it it just plays it to the more it plays to the horror bit a bit more, I reckon. Like, yes, gore and all can be scary, but reaches a point where you're like, guts.

29:10KT: Yeah. And you but you don't actually have to see the point of impact. No. Right? So, again, we talked about the brutality of it, but we didn't see every tiny slash or every you know, all of the violence close-up. So I thought that was quite effective. And actually thinking about it, this came out in 2003. It aged quite well. It really did. Aside from the fashion, it's very early February. But as a film, it actually hold up. Yep. I think. In saying that, the writing wasn't great, but it's like a porn. A porn.

29:48KT: A porno. It's like the pornographers. You're not really going there for the exemplary writing. Right? So I I didn't mind that the writing wasn't great. I also didn't mind that the CG wasn't great. It was effective enough to get its point across. Yeah. And this was just a great a great great great film to watch. Mhmm. And I really enjoyed it. Let's go to Kia, I e Kelly Rowland, and Lori. Mhmm. They were dicks. Like you said, they were dicks to Gibb's character. Yeah. Because Kia is spending all this time

30:27KT: making sure that Lori's okay, forgetting the fact that Gibb's boyfriend just died. They kind of left her to her own devices when they were at the party or even before that. All alone. Like, did he even

30:40KT: talk to her that much?

30:40Oti: Yeah. Like, it is ridiculous.

30:45KT: So I'm I'm not really sure what the goal is with that. But in regards to let's talk a bit about Kia, Kelly Rowland's character.

31:09Oti: Right? Yeah. Like, I don't know. Growing up, Kelly was it. I don't know. It just I didn't get the hype around Beyonce and all. Well, I thought Kelly was better.

31:20KT: This is KT from the For Your Reference podcast in 2019. The views expressed by Oti is not shared with KT. I just wanna make that very clear. We love the spirit of Beyonce. So how how was it seeing her in this film?

31:37Oti: Oh, it was it was good, actually. I I I don't know. I didn't expect her to be in it, but I think in the early two thousands, you had this sort of series where a lot of musicians are big. Dipping their toes. Yeah. Dipping their toes in movies. You'd get DMX.

31:55Oti: DMX with Jet Li, you know, stuff like that.

31:55KT: If you want us I actually just found out the other day that DMX

32:01KT: and Jet Li were in a film together called Cradle 2 the Grave. So please let us know if you would like us to cover that very soon because I have. I genuinely have not watched it and I'm very excited to watch it.

32:01Oti: No. Like, it was it was really big. Like, you'd get a lot of musicians in movies and it'll get you know, it's some sort of fun fan out. I enjoyed it. I think she did well for what this movie was.

32:01KT: Well, no one was expecting a Halle Berry performance.

32:26Oti: No. I mean, it's shoot day. Like, it is what it is. Yeah. I think she did fine. Yeah. I think she did very well.

32:26KT: But her character,

32:35KT: if you if we wanna get deeper than the surface of the film, she seemed very lonely. Like, you know how you have friends in life that, you know, they're they're your ride or die and they're always gonna be by your side? It seemed like she kind of went a bit beyond that. Like, yes, I care about you, but then she was overextending

32:55KT: her care for Lori. I don't know. It just seemed like she was quite lonely.

32:55Oti: Yeah. I felt like she was quite lonely and jealous because we have that Mike Miles Teller looking character, Charlie, I think. Miles Teller. Giving attention to Lori and Kelly or Kia being all dismissive and hurtful and all up until Charlie stood up to Kia, and then you could see, like, Kia was like, he stood up to me. Yeah. I wanna snap his dick off or something. You know? Yes.

33:25Oti: Nothing else. As you could tell, the dynamic changed a bit where she was more kinda, and you could see that there was some interest in there. Yeah. So it was interesting to see how she even reacted to Charlie dang at the end and being all protective and all.

33:42KT: Yeah. And it's it's not a major qualm. It's just a baby Oti qualm. She didn't really have much dimension. She she just did to look after the other characters. Yeah. And Rowland has been through so much and, you know, not being the lead of Destiny's Child must have weighed on her quite a lot. Has she not been through to me. Did

34:10Oti: you hear something?

34:12KT: Where is she hiding? I don't know who said that. But let's go back to what I was saying. Rowland has been through enough. The fact that she had to put her lips on Jason Oh, yeah. That was not fair. So, you know, she got a triumph because she wasn't the first to die and she lasted quite a lot through the film. But I would rather die early in the film than to lay my lips on that disgusting eel. Oh my god. I was, like, dry heaving. Vomit.

34:43Oti: But it it comes to, like, life and death now. No, man. Would you not would you not spare your like, you're trying to save your friends here. You just close your mouth and give a blow, and that's it.

34:56KT: We're not talking about your Friday night Oti.

35:01Oti: Like, I don't know. I've That that was disgusting. Disgusting, but you have to do it to save your friend. Like, I feel like in that situation, disgusting doesn't come into play.

35:10KT: Actually, no. This is an alternate ending. Kelly jumps out of the van and goes to another town because no one else knows about Freddy. No one else knows about what the shit is going on in this town. And then actually, no. That is the merging and then she becomes part of the Destiny's Child and that's her future.

35:30Oti: Now we know how the Destiny's Childs were formed.

35:33KT: Yeah. Exactly. We've done it. We've it It's a multiverse of possibilities. I really liked Lori as a character. She wasn't perfect, but I think she was quite solid to be the lead of this film.

35:33Oti: Yeah. And she was quite

35:50Oti: smart for a lot of leads, especially in this kind of movies where they usually are played like dumb, and they don't really do the right things most of the time. But with Lori, she's quite on it when she's warned that the father was a bit dodge.

36:05KT: Why did she get out of the car, though? Like

36:05Oti: She shouldn't have gotten out. But she still questioned it. You know? Like, she questioned it. She realized things were getting creepy and not being answered, then she was like, okay. I'm out. Yeah. Not a lot of characters. People will just be like, yeah. I'll take the drag. I'll stay and play a good daughter or something. But she she she tries to be different. And when she realized that the dad was trying to save her or protect her from knowing that Freddy killed her mother,

36:33Oti: she was like, no. I'm not leaving. Yes. We can be safe and all and run away, but I wanna see this through. I wanna see Freddy

36:39Oti: end.

36:39KT: Right? Yeah. Yeah. She's actually confronting her dad, it was weird that her dad just fessed up and was like, I didn't mean it to be that way. I was looking after you. Because I'm telling you, if my parents were keeping a secret for me, they would take that shit to the grave.

36:59KT: And I would never find out.

36:59Oti: Oh, you're still thinking of that chicken that's running in the farm somewhere? They told you about didn't you have a pet chicken?

36:59KT: Yeah.

36:59Oti: And it ran to a farm? It's running on a farm somewhere.

37:13KT: It's happy in the fields. This took a really dark turn. I was I was not ready to

37:20KT: address that frame of reference.

37:20Oti: Well, well, and that night, you had chicken for dinner. I'm just saying you can put two and two together.

37:28KT: Hashtag too soon.

37:32Oti: But, yeah, I enjoyed Lori for what she was, and I think she played really solidly. Like, kudos to her. What do you think about Will, the boyfriend?

37:32KT: He's dumb. He's

37:43KT: Oh, wow. No. He's like He was drunk and intoxicated off that pussy.

37:49Oti: No. Like, he had this his friend, Mike. Yeah. And he knows Mike is a bit of a loose ball, you know, a loose cannon and all. But I don't know. Like, I appreciated him for what he was and especially in trying to protect Lori.

38:06KT: Took the lot. Like, she he was big. Mike was the one that got them out of that mental hospital.

38:11Oti: Yeah. So give him his credit. But Mike, again, is the one that reminded everyone about Freddy.

38:18KT: Yeah. But you can't no. But you can't blame him for that. He didn't think this through. How was he to know?

38:25Oti: He knows how Freddy operates. What Mike giveth, Mike taketh.

38:25KT: Yeah. But it was it was really sad to hear him die without his friend having to like, Mike dying and Will just standing ending was very Final Destination,

38:37KT: was it not?

38:40Oti: No. Not really. It was just so funny. Like, Final Destination is when things just happen coincidentally and it just turns into some horrific event.

38:50KT: Hey, mate. Hey, mate. I didn't tell you how to reference your references. I don't take too kindly to your kind around here.

39:00Oti: But, yeah, like, he he was he was alright. I didn't like him or I didn't hate him. He was just there. I I liked him. I thought it was good value. And you saw his brother in the tub

39:12Oti: as well.

39:12KT: Yeah. But it's really Freddy. And us in the For Your Reference household do not perpetuate that gingers are from hell. I just want to say. I just wanna put that on the record. We love everyone. Just like actually, Freddy only loves the kids. How does that premise work? So he was a pedophile when he was alive.

39:12Oti: He wasn't a pedophile.

39:12KT: Yes, he was. He loved kids.

39:12Oti: He

39:40Oti: killed kids. And he just I don't know what you okay. So he he kills kids. He just licks it after. He was sticking the picture on the book. I don't know. It looked creepy, but it's not that he meant that he was a

39:51KT: Oh my god. He is. He's a fucking pedo.

39:51Oti: He just killed kids.

39:51KT: Okay, guys. Again, the only frame of reference I have is the first film and Freddy versus Jason.

40:03Oti: Well well

40:03KT: So feel free to correct me. But he well, he was giving me vibes.

40:03Oti: I would not leave origin my is that he killed a lot he killed kids, and the parents of the kids he killed burnt him, and he became this undead evil that came up to children in their dreams and killed them, you know, in the realm.

40:03KT: See how sexual he gets.

40:03Oti: He he is I mean, sexual, but that doesn't mean he's a pedo. Like, I don't I don't know how he drew that.

40:29KT: You What? Is this really is this really the side you wanna be on?

40:29Oti: I'm just saying,

40:36Oti: having read and seen Nightmare Elms shit, I don't think we're a situation where I felt like, okay, this guy's a bit pedo y. Wow.

40:48KT: I never I never thought you know, we we've covered a lot of highs and lows of humanity, but I really didn't think we would get to this point.

40:48Oti: I think maybe I'm just simple minded because I from

41:02Oti: what I remember is that he just killed kids. And now that he's dead, the people he kills, he like, he becomes stronger from their souls.

41:12Oti: So

41:12KT: Well, I'm just saying. He was giving me some

41:17KT: some vibes. No. Like, sexual nature when he's, like, attacking the teenagers and all.

41:23KT: He makes sexual one liners and all.

41:23Oti: You are really holding onto this, aren't you? Anyway, we can continue.

41:23KT: I'm just saying, he's giving me vibes and they don't seem as harmless as Herbert the Pervert from Family Guy. Okay?

41:39Oti: He Herbert is not harmless, mate.

41:42KT: Chris. He was giving me vibes is all I'm gonna say. Okay. Are you are you done? Can we move can we move on to a potentially less divisive Yeah. Topic? Yep. So when the the law enforcement, they kind of, like, dropped off by the second half of the film. Right? Yeah. Because now the kids were

42:06Oti: taking control.

42:07KT: Actually, no. They did have that one

42:10Oti: Cop was helping them and he died pretty quickly. Yeah.

42:14KT: But did you think he was going to survive much longer? Let's go back when they went to Westin, which is the mental hospital. So they had Hypnocil.

42:25Oti: Yep. Hypnocil.

42:25KT: Another

42:27KT: fact, on the set of the film, Ken, who plays Jason, he's been a stuntman for, like, over ten years. The special effects sparks actually went onto his costume, he was actually on fire Really? For a brief period of time. But because he's an OG stuntman, he was very calm about it. Wow. Right? That would not happen to me. And while we're on the topic of more facts, Rey Mysterio, the wrestler, was actually one of the stuntmen for Freddy.

42:55Oti: That's pretty cool, isn't it? Right?

42:58KT: And they tarnish him in any way. Did he drop off from wrestling or they just maybe I just stopped watching it. I watched it when I stopped watching wrestling, that's when like Batista and Rey Mysterio were in. So I don't know if he's still there. Do you know? I don't know. I stopped watching it ages ago. But I felt like you watched it longer than I. And actually, on the point of wrestling, Jason really reminded me of Kane.

43:22KT: Oh, yeah. And I would put my mouth to his mouth, but I wouldn't put my mouth on Jason.

43:22Oti: Oh, Kane is horrifyingly.

43:29Oti: Like

43:30KT: Did he was he disfigured in any way?

43:30Oti: No. He's just creepy ass.

43:34Oti: Because, you know Earlier version of Kane where he had this red mask.

43:38KT: Yeah. Oh, man. Like, could still help. The Kane with hair. I don't want the Kane that's bald. When Kane came into the scene, he scared me more than Undertaker, and that took a lot of doing. But I feel like Undertaker, he was a persona. Like, Kane, you didn't know whether he came straight from, like, the the local bicycle club. Not bicycle, motorbike.

44:00Oti: Yeah. Like, he he wow. That that was an arc in wrestling that I remember till these days.

44:00KT: I have a spooky

44:06KT: conspiracy theory. I always felt like Mick Foley was actually Kane.

44:06Oti: No. Mick no. Mick Foley is the one with the socks The have a nice

44:17Oti: one that used to stick his socks into people's mouth? Nah. He's short and fat. Kane is taller now. You're you're crazy.

44:17KT: It's called Spanx, motherfucker.

44:29KT: I am putting it on the record. Okay? I feel like Foley and Kane were the same person.

44:29Oti: You're ridiculous. You're ridiculous. They're completely different body sizes and shape.

44:29KT: Actually, do you remember what you were saying five minutes ago?

44:29Oti: I would prefer what I just said than what you were saying. If

44:48Oti: their Spanx have transformed someone from Mick Foley to Kane, Someone's making a someone should be making a killing.

44:57KT: Yeah. Kim Kardashian. Anyway. And that's the first Kardashian reference. You're most welcome, everyone. But let's go back to the film. Let's just talk about Freddy and Jason as horror icons. I don't even know if people say horror icons, but I'm gonna do it. Come and fight me. Who do you think is stronger? We can also talk about who you like better, but let's talk about who would win in a fight.

44:57Oti: Okay. It depends.

45:28Oti: In the dream world, Freddy is king through and through. He he can't be touched. Yes. But if Freddy is fighting Jason in the real world, then Jason is definitely stronger. Like, you can't everyone has their strong suit. Mhmm. Freddy isn't that good outside his dream because he can't manipulate people into thinking things

45:52KT: or using the has is himself, and his strength does not match Jason.

45:52Oti: Exactly.

45:57Oti: So you can't say one's stronger than the other. It depends on where they're fighting. Well, even Because Jason had to come out of the dream world to be able to fight Freddy. Alright. So Jason has this subconscious weakness of water. Uh-huh. And once Freddy

45:57KT: conscious, but yes.

45:57Oti: No. It's subconscious. Like, he he can be in water in the real world.

45:57KT: Left him more It left him unconscious, but it's quite conscious.

45:57Oti: No. Seriously, though. It's this subconscious view of water,

46:24Oti: and Freddy when Freddy realized that, he used it to his, you know, he used it to his advantage. Mhmm. Jason and his mom? Bloody hell. That's some weird twisted dynamic. So it was interesting to see how he was able to, like, just make Jason look so weak and vulnerable. Mhmm. But once you leave that world and come back to reality, the real world, Jason wins

46:49Oti: all day every day.

46:49KT: Okay. What what if they were on a bridge between the dream world and reality? Give me a straight answer, motherfucker. Who would win?

47:02Oti: Maybe if it's being divided into a bridge, I feel like, okay. Freddy would win because I think he's more He's crafty. He's more yeah. He he's he's crafty, he's sneaky, he's more conniving than Jason is. So maybe that he would be able to play that into his strength and drag Jason more towards the dream side.

47:24KT: But yeah. Because we saw at the end of the film that Jason won. But then you had some, like, Looney Tunes at the end. And then Freddy winks. It's like this is But I think that was more of, like, a superfluous thing. I don't think that was the genuine

47:24Oti: There's a comic afterwards.

47:41Oti: Mhmm. Try to explain this. I I think it's it's non canon, but still

47:41KT: Let's give Oti some time to pull his glasses up again.

47:41Oti: No. It's Freddy versus Jason versus Ash. Uh-huh. Ash is from Evil Dead. Okay. So there's this theory where Jason got his powers Mhmm. From this book

47:59KT: Okay.

48:00Oti: Called the Necronomicon where Freddy lives in Jason's mind or mind for five years before he's able to escape. Interesting. Yeah. Exactly. So it's it's it's quite well thought out, and I feel like if there's ever going to be a follow-up rather than a reboot because I think in the real timeline, the last movie is Jason Mossifreddi. Uh-huh. And everything that afterward has just been reboots of old ones. Mhmm. So it'll be interesting to continue from that point,

48:35Oti: especially in the timeline to see exactly how this worked out in the end. Yeah. And this would bring in Ash from Evil Dead. Sploosh Mountain. Talk about multi universes, mate.

48:49KT: At at risk of getting kicked off my own podcast, I also haven't seen that. Oh, dear dear. I test your love for me every month in ways unseen by most. Yep. According to the IMDb trivia as well, some of the first concepts for the film included Jason being held accountable for his crimes. So a good chunk of the film would have been set in a courtroom. What would be the fucking point? Yeah. Nah. Right? And the the lawyer for him would actually be the lead.

49:28KT: Freddy versus Ridiculous. Freddy versus Jason's lawyer. That would be fucking terrible. Right? Oh, if you reject it. Oh, actually, I would be here for a Law and Order: SVU episode with Mariska Hargitay and Jason. What? No. Because in the in the twist that I was gonna mention earlier where Freddy was a camp counselor, they were going to allude to the fact that Freddy molested Jason. So you would have Mariska Hargitay saying, on this doll, please show us what Freddy did to you.

50:01Oti: Wow. Man, I stee and Jason in the same room, Wow.

50:09KT: That is a that is a iconic collab no one even thought to put together. Yeah. Wow. Also, early concept for the script of this film was that it was going to be a cult that resurrected Freddy. And then another cult trying to stop that cult so they resurrect Jason. So I kind of like that they left it between Freddy convening with him in hell. I think I I think that was a much better, less convoluted way of doing it. Agreed. And it probably helped to cut a lot of screen time as well. Because

50:44KT: it's like, you know, you have The Walking Dead, but if I was to draw a graph, you know, the the excitement and the acceleration that you get from a zombie sort of thriller, whether it's a TV show or whether it's a movie, is how finite time is. And you could be on the cusp of death at any time. But if, you know, if the show's going on for, like, eight or nine seasons and people are having children, then all of that, like, all of that thrill has gone out the window. Right?

51:17KT: Yeah. So I like that the running time for Freddy versus Jason was very succinct.

51:23Oti: Yeah. Agreed. Like, it's it's you get what you expect from such a movie. Oh, yeah. And they don't disappoint at all. If you're a fan of slashers, if you're, like, into if you're into, like, horror tropes and jump scares, like, has everything for anyone. Even though it's not scary per se, it's enjoyable nonetheless.

51:46KT: Well, I I guess it's a relative thing about whether you get scared or not. True. Yeah. You know, teenagers would find this scary Yeah. Which has been a long time for us. But I I think it has, like you said, all of the makings of a horror film. Yeah. And it does it quite well. Let's talk about some real world horror with Lori's dad.

52:10Oti: But that was I know what you're talking about. When Lori's dad was was Casey

52:21KT: So Lori fell asleep when they were trying to plan how they were going to execute

52:26KT: infiltrating Freddy and Jason.

52:26Oti: Oh, is this where he Freddy said, your eyes say no no, but my mouth says yes yes? Creepy. Creepy. Wow.

52:40KT: And you still say he's not a pedophile.

52:40Oti: Maybe he's maybe he's like maybe he's like those girls that turn up on a Friday night and a Saturday night, but then they stumble into church on a Sunday.

52:40KT: Are you saying that's what Freddy was like? He was he was a saint when it came to children?

52:59Oti: He was killing them, so he's definitely not a saint.

52:59KT: Saint Pedo?

53:03KT: But I don't know, man. Like, even taking away Freddy and Jason, the dynamic that she had with her father, that was that was creepy. Even when she was about to go to school and the dad was trying to stop her, she was like, I gotta go to work, daddy.

53:25Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Not trying to think too much about that, but it was creepy.

53:25KT: I know you're not thinking about it, but I can see you thinking about it. Like, it's just

53:35KT: I don't know. It was weird. It was. It was weird, and it reminded me of Patricia Arquette and Joey King in The Act because there's a name for that of people that make other people think they're sick. And that's what he was doing with Hypnocil.

53:50Oti: Hypnocil rather. No. He wasn't making them sick. He was making Lori sick by putting it in a juice and making her docile so she couldn't have dreams. But that's not making her sick, is it? Like, it was just so that to protect him from Freddy. And I think it was quite on their part, especially when it came to the people who had already encountered Freddy.

54:08Oti: Because Freddy's power was pretty much mitigated by the fact that.

54:08KT: Just because you're my daddy and I kiss you on the lips doesn't mean that behavior is acceptable

54:16KT: between Lori and the dad.

54:16Oti: Mate, I'm not putting Quaaludes in your drink. Yes.

54:22KT: Because you actually put the generic one because you can't afford the Quaaludes. It's going up in value.

54:27Oti: Oh, bloody hell. They're actually trying to do something good. They don't need to know about Freddy, and I felt like it was a brilliant plan. Make the kids not dream.

54:27KT: But are you also acknowledging

54:38KT: that where everyone were pretty much, like, on life support because they took too much. How about those people?

54:38Oti: Yeah. That was a bit

54:46Oti: we you know? But there's, like, downsides to everything. You know? Like, the optics. We were talking about The Wire just the other week and when they would set up Hamsterdam.

54:56Oti: In theory, I think it would work, but then the optics of it all is just a bit too much to handle. When you're out when you're there on the ground, you're like, this is a bit too much. Yeah. It's the same thing with Hypnocil. Like, I feel like the optics for me at least work as well. Yes. There'll be a few who would overdose on it, but I think it outweighs the risk.

54:56KT: Well,

55:17KT: so Oti will never be the sheriff of Daddywood because Everyone will be on Hypnocil's Hypnocil. Everyone will be on Hypnocil and kissing their daddies. I feel like you would slot in quite well in a horror movie, but you would not be the one people are cheering for.

55:17Oti: To

55:41Oti: be honest, I don't think there's a lot of people who cheer for the human well, like, for the humans when you're watching Freddy or or Jason.

55:49KT: Because it it kind of feeds to our primal need of seeing people die.

55:49Oti: Mate, if that's your primal need, you need to get checked.

55:49KT: No. No. No. Because we're exactly on this and we're talking about this in, you know, other episodes as well. We have an increasing morbid wanton desire for the morals and death. And, you know, women watch Mindhunter. Exactly. So it is a primal need. Natural selection, motherfucker.

56:20Oti: Well, anyway, all I'm saying is I I understood what the town did. I understand what Lori's dad did, and I'm on board with that because it pretty much got rid of Freddy for a couple of years.

56:20KT: I think this inadvertently became a psychological

56:34KT: dump of Oti right now because you were sharing some things that that the world was not ready to hear, my love. But it's it's it's very impressive. The way that they executed it was a bit much, I think. It it was literally a spray and pray sort of effect that they had on all the children. But, yeah, you know, credit credit to the conviction and the conviction of you for defending them. Yeah. So let's let's the final standoff with Freddy and Jason. So you already mentioned

57:14KT: that Jason was gonna win. I think it was quite clear that Jason would win. Like, he doesn't have any other settings in his operating system. It was just kill, kill, kill without any sort of circumstance or but he I don't know. He he's more interesting to watch, though. Like, if you if you think of, you know, Freddy and Jason about to I don't know. They're at a restaurant and they're about to consume a meal.

57:41KT: You know, Jason will literally just scoff it down and just eat it straight away. Yeah. Freddy would most likely fuck it but he would also caress it and have some very good one liners as well. Not to say I wanna have a dinner with either of but Freddy would definitely be more entertaining.

57:58Oti: Yeah. He would be more entertaining. And I think I like the fact that they took Jason back to the camp so he could have a home advantage against Freddy. Mhmm. And it just set up this sort of grandiose battle, which

58:09Oti: which was like a young boy's wet dream. Like, watching this too

58:09KT: Well, it was also it was also Jason's wet dream, but, unfortunately, it turned into a nightmare. Elle, there's a tagline, guys.

58:23Oti: But I enjoyed it. Like, the fight was was quite nice. It's it also showed how skilled Freddy is because he was

58:31Oti: slashing Jason back and forth with us. He did not give up.

58:31KT: Yes. No. He did not. And even when he they were in, a construction section and he was, like, swinging that big, like, cement mixer, I think it was. And then he had the cart and the cart got stuck and fell down. He was very he had an ingenuity to him. He did. That was quite admirable. And you would think that they had a perfect balance because they had clearly defined roles. They didn't really overlap. Like, Freddy was crafty. He was conniving,

59:04KT: but he was very smart. And then you have Jason who was brute. Yeah. Just as simple slaughter. Yeah. Yeah. So you would think they would work quite well together, but then I guess that's where you have Jason just doing anything he wants. So you can't really control him in that sense. Yeah. Do you think, you know, nearing the end of the film, we have him confronting his mom. Right? Do you think in any ways he's kind of broken ties Oedipus ties from his mother?

59:04Oti: Nope.

59:34KT: Not at all?

59:34Oti: No. That's who he is. Like, interestingly, he would always be tied to his mother regardless of what Freddy tries to pull out of the heart. Like, that relationship is set in stone, and the mother will always spot Jason to be how the hell he is at the moment. Yeah. And no one would be able to break that because that's intrinsically who Jason is.

59:56KT: Yeah.

59:58KT: I get you. That makes sense. So do you think Freddy survived at the end of it?

59:58Oti: Yeah. Because in in the comic books, he's still alive. He's he's captured in Jason's mind for five years, but he still finds a way out afterwards. But he's still very much alive. And the fact that he blinked to the screen like Bugs Bunny at the end just shows you everything you needed to know.

59:58KT: No. Wasn't That that could just be tongue for. Could just be a tongue in cheek thing and not actually what happened.

59:58Oti: Like,

60:27Oti: he's already in dead. You can't kill him twice, can you?

60:27KT: True.

60:27Oti: You can take away his powers, but he's just trying to figure out a way to come back the same way he did in the beginning of the movie.

60:27KT: So just a just a question because

60:40KT: in this dynamic, you are more learned. Can you kill Freddy and or Jason, or are they kind of immortal?

60:49Oti: You can kill them both.

60:51Oti: You can sort of kill Freddy in terms of stripping away

60:51KT: Until another franchise comes out, and then they're alive again.

60:51Oti: Yeah.

61:00Oti: Jason. Because Jason was was killed in, like, the last three movies of I don't know. Yeah. And he was resurrected from hell. That's how he came into Jason this has been killed several several times, so it's possible.

61:14KT: It's just a matter of making him stay dead. Yeah. But I I feel like the film was quite interesting because you could see even when they had their fights, you know, even with Freddy rejuvenating and, you know, creating his own limbs again, like his arms, for example. Like, you could see that this film could go on forever long and needed to. And then once they wanted to crescendo, they would crescendo. Right? So that was quite clear. But it was interesting. It it kept me engaged all the way throughout.

61:44KT: And they also managed to have that story with Lori at the center of it as well. And it kept it quite interesting. Yeah.

61:52Oti: It did. And I enjoyed like, there's a lot of backstory in Freddy and Jason. Mhmm. You get to understand them as a character and who they are as this sort of villains. Yep. Everyone having their identity and their cause and their weaknesses strictly laid out. Mhmm. And guess this is where I had my qualms with Pennywise because it's also subjective,

62:20Oti: and the fact that people figured out his weakness, but then they all got brainwashed, you know, how it just seemed all too bold and beautiful for me. Like, you know when you're rooting for a character to they they've fallen in love. They've just revealed the feelings for each other, and then one gets hit by a car. Next minute, he's in a coma, and then he wakes up and thinks, oh, I'm in love with this other woman.

62:44KT: It's also sounds like every Korean drama as well. Like, it's such a weird, silly trope that's being used

62:51KT: so much.

62:51Oti: I was like, if if you're gonna put it on a pedestal to be one of the best horror movies to date and it's garnering the grossing the most money as well Uh-huh. I'm like, there's, like, so much solid characters out there better than Pennywise who are more layered, you know exactly what you're gonna get in terms of his the the the backstory, who they are, intrinsically, their powers, their limit to their powers. Mhmm. I have to get rid of them. And just

63:23Oti: they just feel all mixed up with Pennywise, and I was like, pissed right off.

63:23KT: Well, hold on to your Kruegers because that's essentially the premise of Freddy versus Jason.

63:33KT: You so in it, you get a reset because like you said, as soon as they leave the town, they forget. And the reset that you have in Freddy versus Jason is everyone's been drugged so they don't remember it or at least he can't emerge from their dreams.

63:49KT: So that is resetting the narrative as well.

63:49Oti: It's not really resetting the narrative in the same perspective though, is it?

63:55KT: No. But in in essence

63:55Oti: Like, makes more sense.

63:55KT: Well, it doesn't matter because it's resetting the narrative, and you just had a qualm about Pennywise. The same thing happens in this film.

63:55Oti: Not to the same extent, though. Like, it's

64:09Oti: we're starting a movie from scratch bringing two iconic characters together. Mhmm. So it's understandable to some degree as to why Freddy isn't Trump and Reddy and on Elm Street. It's understandable because we already know exactly what's happened in the last version of Freddy and in what happened in Jason when he was taken to hell or something. So we already know that. There's, like, heaps of movies that I explained through up to that point. So it's more writing it progressively

64:39Oti: bored.

64:39KT: It's all semantics, my friend, because in any case, the story gets reset and the characters have to relearn this horror villain.

64:49Oti: Right? Not really relearn. They already knew it. Like, they just suppressed it. Like, they didn't have to go. Oh my god. Oh my god.

64:49KT: So they knew they suppressed it doesn't matter. They have to start back from base.

64:49Oti: And you know what? Not from base. You know, many were starting from zero. Started back from, let's say, five. It's a scale to 10.

64:49KT: Wow.

64:49Oti: At least they knew exactly what they needed to do

65:13Oti: once they saw that Freddy was back.

65:13KT: You know what? I can't even I can't even begin with you because you did outset from the premise say that you are biased. So let's just leave it because you what you're saying is like apples and apples, mate. Okay. Let's talk about how you defeat them.

65:33Oti: Right? Mhmm. We all know Jason and Freddy's weaknesses, and then you have Pennywise, who is merely defeated by screaming teenagers. I am not going to even touch that with a 10 foot pole. Like, far out. This is it was just like Martha being used in Superman and versus Batman, and it was just ridiculous.

65:55Oti: The same way you get to understand the intricacies of all these characters, you you have to understand there's a fundamental layer of if they're this powerful, there should be a, like, a logical way of getting rid of them. Me shouting explosives at at them and saying they're small or whatever is not one of them. Betty,

66:14KT: you're small. You're small. Like You're small.

66:21Oti: Like I said, yeah, you said I'm biased, and I am because I grew up on Jason and and Freddy more, and I was more I was more connected to them as characters rather than Pennywise. But you can't justify to me how this, although a smaller budget, I enjoyed it more than I did

66:43Oti: it.

66:43KT: Well, that's your frame of reference.

66:43Oti: It is my frame of reference.

66:43KT: If we're talking about devices in a narrative, then you're dead wrong, mate. However it happens, both sets of protagonists and supporting characters scale. That's what I mean. Oh, lord. Wow. You know what? When you edit this, you're gonna hear this back, my friend. And I know I know you're a proud peacock baby and you are not going to admit it, but I'll be damned if you in all your intelligence don't see that you're dead wrong because

67:21KT: the plot devices are exactly the same in It Chapter Two and also in Freddy versus Jason. Whether you wanna admit that is on your own volition. One took us for a three hour journey, and the other one was on our thali.

67:21Oti: Yeah. But you're bringing up shit that has nothing to do with anything.

67:21KT: I'm focusing on the plot point that they reset.

67:39Oti: They didn't wanna reset in that manner, though. Like, it's completely different.

67:44KT: Okay. It seems like Oti needs a reboot of his system

67:49KT: because he's not he's not quite getting it.

67:49Oti: I just don't think you'll get me to say anything bad about this movie. I I don't think you'll get me say anything bad about Jason and Freddy.

67:49KT: This this isn't

67:49Oti: Especially compared to Pennywise.

67:49KT: This isn't 60 Minutes. I'm not trying to get you into a sound bite.

67:49Oti: It sounds like it. Mate, wow.

68:05Oti: In Kenya, we don't really have this sort of weird journalism that Australia has in 60 Minutes and shit where people get led on and not just Australia. America does it too.

68:05KT: Well, I've watched John John Oliver John John Oliver has a a running series of sound bites for 60 Minutes, and that's in America and not Australia, mate.

68:05Oti: I'm just saying, my first verbal reference was with how Australian journalists worked.

68:30Oti: And it was so outlandish. I was like, is this even legal? What the fuck is this? I'm watching. But, anyway, we are getting off topic. Don't put me in there.

68:43KT: Who else is not safe from Oti's paths today? Is there are there any other qualms you wanna lay out there?

68:43Oti: Those are all the qualms that I have.

68:43KT: Because you know, Lupita came and filmed here recently for Little Monsters, which is a great great film to watch. So I'm not sure why you don't appreciate this sunburnt country.

68:43Oti: I do appreciate it. I love it. It's journalism. We just do some work.

68:43KT: In in the words of Freddy to you, Oti, I say, what a treat, dark meat.

69:14Oti: Oh, that was unexpected.

69:17KT: It was actually it was actually a reference to an earlier

69:22KT: film of the franchise.

69:22Oti: Yeah. I I did not like, I've forgotten all that until I watched this. I was like, wait, what? It took me aback, but it was fun nonetheless.

69:35KT: Well, who knew a spooky time would be a divisive time for Oti at the For Your Reference podcast, but, you know, you never know what you're going to get.

69:44Oti: Mhmm.

69:45KT: Well, wasn't that a fun time, kiddies of age, of consent? Thank you for joining us on Halloween special where we covered Freddy versus Jason, otherwise known as Oti versus Pennywise. We're going to wrap up in a segment we call For Your Reference.

70:06KT: Oti, take it away.

70:06Oti: I'm gonna reference Child's Play because he has Chucky, one of the most iconic. Sorry. Sorry. I I I don't You can't talk about horror movies. I don't talk about Chucky. Like, in as much as you think that it's just a doll, he is creepy ass, and he caused a lot of frightening nights in my house. So if you've not watched Child's Play, please get to it. It's just fun horror without taking itself too seriously. And you know what? You'll have a good time.

70:39KT: We need to have, like, a bonus episode where we dive into this. You were scared of a doll and not a clown.

70:47Oti: No.

70:47KT: Is any other references?

70:47Oti: No. Child's Play is all you need to know. If if you've you've already got Jason and and Freddy down, you need to chuck in your arsenal.

71:01KT: Well, that just hurts because your team doesn't win all the time. Oh, wow. Your small arsenal. There you go. I I've defeated the beast that is Oti, at least for now. I will reference It, motherfucker, the miniseries with Tim Curry and also without Skarsgard.

71:24KT: It Chapter One and also Chapter Two.

71:24Oti: Oh, if you don't wanna have fun, then you can watch that.

71:24KT: Well,

71:31KT: hopefully, you guys had a great spooky time with us. Let's capture it off. If you have any major qualms that you want to lay out in regards to Oti and Pennywise, please send us an email on hello@fyrpodcast.com. On our socials, we are on Twitter and Instagram for your ref pod. We're not really on Facebook anymore. Let us know if that's still a benefit to you guys. Mark Zuckerberg was roasted this week, and it was just

72:02Oti: Facebook could be run better, and you could catch us on any other platform apart from that. And there you go, guys.

72:08KT: We'll see you next week. Well, he's a jolly good Freddy.