Sinners – Religion & Blues

Full transcript of Sinners – Religion & Blues.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and we have another full review. How are you feeling, Oti? POed? Well, if you're looking for more vampires, we have a Twilight episode. Mm-hmm. If you're looking for more Catholicism, we have your Passion of the Christ. I'm pretty sure these audiences overlap for Sinners today.

0:23Oti: Yeah. The Venn diagram is, is perfecto.

0:26KT: Can I get a good hum from you, Oti? Mm. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT

0:46Oti: and Oti.

0:48KT: Welcome. Pass the vibe check into the juke joint of remembering bodies, conversate numbers, and strum humming. Mm. Strumming me softly. Am I right, Oti? Mm-hmm. Pierce the veil of life and death with Sinners this week. Come on. Hoo. Can I get a Yee? Ha.

1:13Oti: Yee Doug. It eha.

1:16KT: Damn. Maybe you were in the south in the 1930s. Soot love splicers. Friends and lovers. It has been Sinners all day every day, baby. Who I'm very excited to get into this. Before we even get into this, we need to give some love and accolades while we're here. First off and forever. Our very first review episode, Oti, was Black Panther.

1:46Oti: Sure was.

1:47KT: We were also in Kenya at the time of cinema release. Mm-hmm. You reached full Wakandan. And you chose to come back to the cool, cool cans, um, to, to spread your goodness, um, and your vibranium all over the world. And we thank you for that, Oti. Um, you know, Wakanda Forever, we talked about, um, I love that film so much. No one does grief like Ryan Coogler. Mm-hmm. And that is a compliment in all the most delicious of ways. Um, obviously Creed as well. Specifically speaking on Sinners, it is breaking all of the records, including a hundred percent sustained Rotten Tomatoes score. Ooh, until one motherfucker that is infamous enough that people knew who's the one that made it. 99%. It's currently on 98%. Friends and lovers. And hopefully if, um, you know, we've got any sort of credits, Oti during Black History Month had extra characters for his pull quotes.

2:54KT: Um, hopefully maybe we can bring it back to where it needs to be. And it goes from 98 to 99. But you know, the moment we drop this and it's out on, uh, I was gonna say DSPs clear the streets Kendrick has dropped again, literally friends and lovers, all I have are two channels. Ryan Coogler, Sinners, and Kendrick Lamar, GNX. Um, so hopefully, but right now it is 98% on Rotten Tomatoes. Um, again, breaking all the records, it's a 4.3 out of five on Letterboxd

3:27Oti: Oh,

3:28KT: which again is breaking records. Speaking of CinemaScore. It has gained an A, which, um, hasn't been done for a while and even for a horror film. Mm-hmm. Number one in the domestic. We all live in the US aspirationally and mentally. So number one, domestic box office sales, $45.6 million. Best reviewed wide release film this decade. Biggest domestic opening for an original film this decade.

3:59Oti: Speak on it.

4:01KT: The only other one was Nope. Mm.

4:04Oti: Speak on it.

4:05KT: Can we, can we clock it? Sinners officially open to $63.5 million in the worldwide box motherfucking office. Ooh, that's some West Indian all the way to Delta Slim, Oti. Mm-hmm. Biggest domestic opening this decade. For an original film. It is R rated, it is unapologetically loving on black culture and history, and it's also got vampires as well. Mm-hmm. How are you feeling in this moment?

4:42Oti: Um, great. I think we always knew we were gonna watch this on IMAX, but I don't think I've ever been prepared for what the, the experience of it.

4:54KT: Right. 1.43 ratio one.

4:58Oti: Mm. Because usually we do IMAX and all that, but you know, it wouldn't stand out too much.

5:05KT: Yeah.

5:06Oti: At least for me.

5:07KT: Oh man. Every time the scene expanded to the whole ratio, that was my pussy opening. Every, every time. Every time you heard a, ah, that was me. Even if I'm not in that screening, that was me, friends and lovers, but mm-hmm. Um, before we get into our pull quotes, before we get into the nasty, uh, you know, uh, deliciousness that we're going to get into, um, we've had a very lovely journey, shout outs to Warner Brothers in Australia. Um, there was an advanced second trailer event that we were invited to. Mm-hmm. Shout out to Juju. Um, he moderated the panel and that was really cool. Um, we also were able to preview the cornbread scene.

5:55Oti: Oh. Shout outs to, I have feelings about that.

5:58KT: Shout outs to- Yeah, we're going to get into it. We're gonna choose your fighter, Oti. I guess we'll see if yours can dodge and block and do the combos. Um, or a fatality if you're nasty. But shout outs to, uh, Omar Benson Miller. First shout out, uh, for the cast, because he talked about in interviews, he was working on a different film. Someone like lightly touched on it. He lightly answered it straight up. Got a call from the studio being like, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Um, and then he, and then once they released the, the scene as like a sort of snippet, as a teaser, um, Omar was like, what the fuck, man? Um, but we were invited to, um, the digital, uh, at that point I think it was a regional sort of press event. And our question that we submitted to Ryan Coogler was actually asked in that session.

6:55KT: If you can indulge me, friends and lovers, I'm just gonna read it very quickly. Um. This is also a very well crafted question. Uh

7:04Oti: oh, really? Is it?

7:05KT: Yeah. It's a Lovecraft question. Oh, maybe Fruitvale Station, Creed, Black Panther. And now Sinners. You have a poetic ability to speak truths. How do you balance heart and story? Are they one and the same or do you see them as separate?

7:24Oti: That's a KT question. If I,

7:29KT: um. Friends and lovers, it was, uh, just the transcript. So it's a writeup on our website. Um, but feel free to, uh, I'm gonna put it in the show notes. Please go and read it. Let the studios know that we are an outlet and you love to get information as well as nasty solutions from us. Um, but he essentially says that it goes hand in hand. It was a family event shout outs to Zinzi, his wife, um, that also worked on the film, so, love it. Beautiful. Gorgeous. If you've, um, you know, if you checked out any of the interviews, Ryan Coogler talks about his uncle. Um, and yeah, I don't wanna take too much from it, but if, if you're checking out interviews, it's a very personal story and you can feel that amongst it just being, you know, um, steeped in the culture and that sort of thing.

8:17KT: So, um, we're invited to the, the cornbread scene. We're going to talk about it anyway as a part of the full review. Um, we're also invited to a global press. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was pretty cool. That was also transcripts only. Um, we talked about like the seven key things to know. Um, that's also a writeup on our website as well. Friends and lovers. We've done social reactions. I put it on Letterboxd. Um, at this point I've watched Sinners three times I've experienced the Holy Trinity. How many more do you got in stock? You know what, there's actually nothing stopping me from watching it a fourth time. Friends and lovers.

8:56Oti: Ugh.

9:01KT: Um, I, I might not have money for tithing, but I got money for IMAX. Mm-hmm. And it's pretty much the same thing, friends and lovers. Um, but very, very quickly, let's get into everyone. You know, Ryan Coogler talks about how this was a family affair, um, and everyone feels like family. Lots of longtime collaborators. Um, on Sinners that Ryan Coogler has worked on. Whe whether with in film school, in, in his films up until now, written, directed, produced. Ryan Coogler. We've heard Jordan Peele, we've heard Spike Lee. I'm pretty sure we are getting somewhere, somewhere, somewhere. It can't be hashtag Oscars so white like we need to get somewhere.

9:47KT: Also, Oti, breaking news. Apparently it's now a rule that the Academy Award voters actually have to watch the films that they vote, vote on.

10:00Oti: Would people just vote without watching?

10:02KT: Well, one would ask. Shouldn't they have watched the films already? Well, we'd be No one.

10:08Oti: I didn't know fuck

10:09KT: sake. What? But did you really, what you're talking about, did you expect the voters that they watched all the winner? Yeah. Yes. Well, there you go. Now there's a winner. Well vote for something you've not watched. You've seen the winner. Emilia Pérez. What's good. That's probably the reason why, to be perfectly honest. Um, also in producing we have Zinzi Coogler as well as Sev Ohanian. In regards to cinematographer, Autumn Durald Arkapaw, who is the first woman to wield an IMAX camera. Mm. Cinematography also in Wakanda Forever. Shout outs, loves Sloes forever. Um, you'll also notice in Ryan Coogler's crew, he has a lot of women, and don't worry friends and lovers, if you're following us on socials. I said it already, but I do have a theme saying, ladies love Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler loves the ladies. A hundred percent. I guess that's, that's, that's in front of and behind the screen, edited by Michael P. Shawver.

11:08KT: Music by Ludwig Göransson. Mm. Uh, shout outs because his dad, uh, played the blues and there's a connection there, which is really cool. Again, I watch all the interviews. You should watch all the interviews. It's more exciting than me saying it. Starring, starring, starring Michael B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan. Or it just times two. Hailee Steinfeld, Miles Caton breakout role. Mm-hmm. Break out role. Break it all off. Shake it all off. Shout outs to H.E.R. 'cause H.E.R. heard about this and told him to audition.

11:45Oti: Oh really?

11:45KT: Apparently he didn't even play the guitar. Oh. But she's like, you gotta do it. But at the end of the day, it's musicality and, you know, um, great role. And shout outs to people that are always in your corner. That's exactly what you need. You know who's not in my corner? Jack O'Connell. You know what you did. Wunmi Mosaku, uh, Jayme Lawson. Omar Benson Miller and Delroy motherfucking Lindo. Mm. Wow.

12:14Oti: How good.

12:16KT: Well, I got my shit off. Now it's time to get to the pull quotes, Oti. It will be spoilers. Friends and lovers, grab a snack. Keep, keep pressure on that button and let's get into it.

12:32Oti: Sinners grabs you from frame one, immersive, atmospheric, and soaked in culture. Coogler crafts a thunderous howl of history and horror, like nothing we've seen before.

12:46KT: Mm-hmm.

12:48Oti: Mm-hmm.

12:53KT: Wow.

12:53Oti: Taking you to church today.

12:55KT: This is all, I feel like this is all we need to cover. If this is the, this is my favorite final level, t friends and lovers. Mm-hmm. Wow. I guess, let, let me try and follow beside you, Ryan Coogler's cohesive vision and ability to weave story transcends genre and the heart cannot be detached from art. History layers the supernatural elements, emotion carries through music and commentary is given life with the talented ensemble.

13:27Oti: Oof. A hundred percent. I've, I've only watched this once, um, compared to KT's three time.

13:38KT: Yeah.

13:39Oti: But I think it, it will actually be good because I have questions galore that will pretty much cover it in the themes and. Just experiencing this. Um, I think there's also some aspects of uncomfortability on my part based off where I watched it in

14:01KT: just say there were Remmicks in the class, maybe some Graces,

14:06Oti: but, and that's what, like, it was super exciting to experience this. Uh, I really hoped that I, I hadn't watched the cornbread scene going in.

14:15KT: Yeah.

14:15Oti: I felt like it robbed me of some something. Mm-hmm. But, oh, my word, this movie covered so much. It delved into depths I didn't think would be able to get in a horror once I saw, when I, when you watched the trailer for this, I thought I knew what would be getting.

14:35KT: Mm-hmm.

14:36Oti: Um, you know, having, uh, Michael B. Jordan in there Yeah. I sort of thought, you know, would get a, a Creed-esque sort of spin on vampire sort of lore and all that.

14:48KT: Interesting.

14:49Oti: But far out yeah, it, it just broke into ways. It, it, it spoke on things that I wouldn't expect in a movie like this.

15:01KT: Yeah.

15:02Oti: It covered important things and it celebrated not only the genre, the lore but the culture as well.

15:13KT: Mm.

15:13Oti: And oof. I just love this.

15:18KT: Um, I, I just wanna spend a little time just reflecting on the box office because I said it, but we didn't necessarily, um, comment on it. And, you know, we are loving The Studio right now. Seth Rogen is a face I hate to love and love to hate, um, to see at the moment because his character is so frustrating. But it's so deliciously frustrating. Um, and the reason why I say that is because we are actively seeing a lot of black and brown stories, original stories, film, television being canceled, budgets being cut, Batgirl didn't even see the light of day. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't think Blade's ever see the light of day.

16:06KT: How do you fumble Mahershala and Delroy Lindo as well?

16:12Oti: They will find a way.

16:13KT: There was like a Homeland GIF saying that that was Kevin Feige watching Sinners realizing he could have, um, which, you know, it's cute, but it also dilutes, uh, the vibrancy that we get in Sinners. Um, but,

16:31Oti: and he's to ownership of the 25 years. Come on, can we talk about it?

16:36KT: And he is not the only one to do it. Shady Variety. We're not for outlets talking nonsense. 'cause at the end of the day, there, there's no other way to say it. It's racist reporting. Like in what world do you say such? 'cause even your Ben Stiller, your Severance man,

16:52Oti: what did Variety say?

16:54KT: They were making it as if, because they didn't make back the $90 million budget in the opening days and it was 60 million, but they were like, oh, they're never gonna recoup it. Uh, 'cause it's not even in considering the marketing budget. And it's like, you fucking idiot, but you fucking idiot. How, how do films ever make it back in the opening weekend? And you've never reported that before. It's racism. And also shout outs to that tweet. I'll find it and I'll put it on our socials. When someone said, if you put a one star rating for Sinners, you're racist. No questions asked.

17:28Oti: No. It's just how dare, how dare you have a a a, a black created movie. Have good press. Yeah. It, it's just nonsense man.

17:38KT: It is nonsense. But we will also live in the celebrations and the love of it because again, the other film to do it was Nope. It doesn't try and it doesn't try to bury the lede. Like, you know, the, the joy of blackness is there at the forefront and people are here to see it, especially in IMAX.

18:02Oti: Yeah.

18:03KT: Friends and lovers. This is a, um, multi-layered, uh, you know, holy dimensional review, but it's also my call out because they, they also said after the 23rd of April in participating IMAX that have 70 millimeter screenings, you get like a, a piece of film of Sinners. If you love me, friends and lovers, even if you hate me, please send it. I will let you know.

18:34Oti: Oh, show some love to Australia. Fun. All right.

18:38KT: Well, yeah, well, yeah. Um, so let's get into it. Oh. We can't even get into it. You know why we can't get into it? Oti? Why not? Because motherfuckers keep making stupid comparisons with Sinners. So I just wanna address it so we can actually talk about the film. I don't know what other comparisons you've been hearing, but there's a very, very angry Latino, if it matters, he's popping a blood vessel all over the internet saying this completely rips off From Dusk Till Dawn. Mm. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. We're going to get to the richness, Oti, but we need to address this so we can get it out of the way. Um, friends and lovers. So I watched, uh, Sinners for the first time in the lead up to, um, the advanced trailer event in the cornbread scene. Then we went together to the media screening where they had it in Sydney, IMAX.

19:38KT: Mm. And then, you know, in, in the holy, um, period, I did my Holy Trinity and I went to IMAX. Um, literally last night I watched for,

19:49Oti: you've got your different kind of chocolate book Easter.

19:55KT: Thank you. Oh, good. Thank you. Jeymes Samuel. Um, we still need to cover The Book of Clarence.

20:01Oti: We do.

20:02KT: Um, and we will be talking about Jeymes Samuel, uh, later on for more apt comparisons. Um, but before you had a good idea, before I go and watch Sinners for the third time, you were like, let's just watch From Dusk Till Dawn. Friends and lovers. If you're new to the For Your Reference podcast, we cover every February we cover filmographies. Usually writer directors is our sweet spot. Um, but we cover like, we do a mini retrospective called a Reference Degustation. We did Quentin Jerome Tarantino, uh, I think he's also the most films we've done by the way. Um, in regards to those Degustations. But anyway, we didn't do From Dusk Till Dawn. Um, I'm, I'm kind of glad we didn't include it 'cause I don't think it was as good as the ones we covered. Um, but yeah, we watched it a few hours before I went to go and watch Sinners for a third time.

20:53KT: Um, I guess we don't need to get into full detail, but comparisons, and I guess we might lightly spoil From Dusk Till Dawn, just so we can illustrate some points. Go, Oti.

21:06Oti: So my first watch of From Dusk Till Dawn. Mm. And surface level, you could be like, oh, alright. So they, they're saying that two brothers, we've got this story looking at their background and whatnot and the lead up to, you know, white flips into this vampire sort of, um, you know, genre or horror sort of genre, you know, um. At the surface. That's the extent of it. And it's very

21:39KT: peripheral.

21:40Oti: It is very peripheral. And outside of, and even the last half of, from, From Dusk Till Dawn is, it's just, there's just, it's, the difference is too, too vast to even try and compare the two. Uh, and that's all I, I walked away from.

22:00KT: Yeah.

22:00Oti: Um, I wouldn't take, I think with watching the first half, I, you know, I love qu Quentin Tarantino's dialogue. He, he has a way of just making everything fun.

22:15KT: Yeah.

22:16Oti: And finding ways in which to say the most mundane of things in the, in the most interesting of ways. Mm-hmm. Um, up until why I

22:24KT: don't need him saying pussy again though.

22:26Oti: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Up until they get to the Titty Twister and it changes. The tone, um, the, the everything that made the first half good.

22:39KT: Yeah.

22:39Oti: Sort of disappears and it goes into, it's not even Ash and the Evil Dead sort of, you know, Ash and the Evil Dead sort of had its own

22:47KT: like camping

22:48Oti: from Yeah. It felt different from that. But you know what, to each of their own, I couldn't see any sort of semblance or resemblance into saying, Ooh, Sinners ripped off From Dusk Till Dawn because a, it didn't completely different things. Things and, and what they're covering and how they executed. Um, and we've seen script flips still since movies started, you

23:16KT: know? Yeah.

23:17Oti: So it's not unique. It wasn't unique in From Dusk Till, From Dusk Till Dawn.

23:22KT: Yeah.

23:22Oti: And it's not unique in Sinners. We've seen it in movies since forever, so I still don't. I can't see it. I can't vibe with it. I can't vibe with that sentiment.

23:33KT: Yeah. I I, I don't get it. It, it's very peripheral tracings. If you had to have some sort of, um, overlap, um, it's like when you think of Hound Dog, you think of Elvis Presley or, you know what I mean? Like you are literally

23:52Oti: Yeah.

23:52KT: And that's, that's not to draw parallels between, well, I guess you can friends and lovers, but we don't have the time. I'm not drawing parallels between Tarantino and Coogler. I think they both deserve respect. I think both films can exist. Um, there was also like a big film, like a, a Twitter account that does film stuff being like, pick one of Get Out and Sinners. And everyone's like, no, because why would you? Right. Um, but I guess what I would say is it's peripheral tracings that why would you even need to compare them? But if you are, it's comparing Elvis to Mama Thornton. It's, even if you want to talk about horror, if you see a clown in a horror movie, you are gonna say, oh, this is copying Stephen King. No. Art the Clown, respectfully, is, is, is going to fuck up those kids in a different way. Okay. You know, it, it's stuff like that where it's like, okay.

24:49KT: And we're going to get into the discussion. There are some heavy and weighted scenes in this film, including one of my favorite scenes in this film with Delta Slim, right? Mm. How do you watch that and start going, oh, actually From Dusk Till Dawn. Fuck off. Really? And if, if we wanna talk actual, like storytelling, the Vampirism in From Dusk Till Dawn is added as a part of what's happening in the dynamic of Clooney and Tarantino, right? Mm-hmm. The vampirism and the supernatural and the lore that you have in Sinners is, it's part of the pulse of the heart of this story. You actually can't separate them.

25:41Oti: Yeah.

25:42KT: All right. Um. Now that you've been turned away from the juke joint, let's get into the themes. Oti, I did have a theme for Ryan Coogler, but we're going to talk about him throughout, but love, love, love sloes at every altar. Friends and lovers. I wanna start off by talking about, you know, this episode will be religion and blues. So I want talk about music. I wanna talk about blues, the Delta Blues. Uh, in interviews, Ryan Coogler talks about, you know, musicians that sell their soul that perhaps never were able to sing or play guitar.

26:20KT: Um, Robert Johnson for example, and it's interesting because, you know, in these stories it's the devil that, you know, you sell your soul to. But if you peel back a couple of iterations of these stories, it has. Like African folklore, and it's actually like an elder that teaches him very interesting. Looks like Remmick was playing with the lore again, Oti. Um, and shout out to Ludwig as well. He did, um, the score for the film and, you know, there's a lot of research and love, obviously that gets poured into this film. But what I wanna focus on is the blues music and I guess the channeling and the origin of the blues. Right. I, I mentioned it a couple of times.

27:10KT: The first instance that we see in this film of that humming is our young preacher boy, pussy Boy Sammie, um, when he's in the field. Mm. And it's, it's an opening and I think it's the very first instance that we get of his voice. And his voice is so lovely and there's, there, there, there's so much life. Especially because he is so young, but in his voice, there's so much life there. Um, and one of my favorite moments, um, we have Delta Slim, and this is when they're in the car. This is when they are passing the prisoners and he says, hold your head high. Mm-hmm. And then obviously not long after we hear some gunshots.

27:55KT: Right. Um, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna put a trigger warning. Friends and lovers, we're not gonna go into graphic detail, but, um, we will be speaking on a scene that references a lynching. Um, when we have this moment, you know, Delta Slim is talking. 'cause the way we meet him, you know, he's drunk. Um, stack is able to get him because of the Irish beer that he has. And, you know, I think it was quite clear to a lot of us without even needing to explain that him drinking alcohol was a vice. Mm. It was a way of coping. It was a response to trauma, it was a coping mechanism. Um, but in the car scene we really get a moment to understand him, right? Because they talked about, you know, shout outs to, we don't really need to talk about the Green Book.

28:48KT: Um, but we hear about a moment with him and his friend Rice, where they perform and they get a lot of money for it. Um, Sammie's like, where did that money go? And he points to the alcohol and he is like, it all went to here. And I guess at that point, depending on what sort of viewer and life experience you've had, I think it was quite clear what he was saying. And then he starts talking about a story. About him and his friend Rice. Mm-hmm. About how he saved $2 for a train ticket. He had all of this money, he was going to start a church, and obviously he got robbed. And they made a story about him raping a a a a white woman, you know, and taking that money and lynching him.

29:38KT: And you can feel it, you can feel the atmosphere in the screening, especially if, uh, people just thought they were coming in for a vampire film. M m. There's a weight there, there's a heaviness there, and I'm pretty sure it's Malcolm X. It's definitely Spike Lee. 'cause we recently did the retrospective right. The way that Delta Slim was reflecting. And you could see him physically try to bring himself back to the present because he was stuck in those memories. You could hear the lynching off screen. Mm-hmm. And it was one of those moments where it's like, fuck, this is the film.

30:29Oti: Yeah. Wh which I guess would've also been sort of surprising because you didn't know what you're going to get. And I think one of the far scenes I said when you're doing the humming was I think the, uh, people in the field picking cotton, you know? Um, and to me at that point I was like, okay, feels like slavery has been abolished by then.

30:57KT: Yeah. Sharecroppers.

30:58Oti: Yeah. But uh, trying to get in touch with, peoples and their culture. And, and I think once we get into the ness of the you, you get to see more of that. But the one thing that I really appreciated in this movie was the importance the music played in it.

31:14KT: Mm-hmm.

31:15Oti: When we're in the juke joint And you have Sammie performing.

31:18KT: Yeah.

31:19Oti: And just everything goes up in embers. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, we've got ancestors, different cultures, tribes, you know, uh, spotted Messiahs in there, like it's,

31:34KT: shout out to Ruth E. Carter, by the way.

31:36Oti: Mm. Oh, the costume?

31:37KT: Yes. Two-time Academy Award. Longtime collaborator of iconic black filmmakers, just filmmakers in general. Stand on it. Mm. Oh, sorry. I just felt, I felt compelled. The spirit compelled me. Love you Ruth E. Carter. Thank you for everything.

31:55Oti: To me, that scene was Sammie breaking the veil and showing that we are our ancestors You know, we are from all that. It's not just here, it's not exactly, we're just not stuck in this point in time. We are here because of everything else that's on there. Yep. And it was done so beautifully. And to have that moment be when we get to introduce Remmick or how that interaction and you're speaking on, on, on what Vampirism means in this context as well. Oh,

32:30KT: I hope it means what you ag I hope we think it means the same thing. I hope we think it means the same thing. Um, I want to come to that, uh, music scene, but just to close off, uh, Slim's scene in the car, he was trying to bring himself back to the present and that's when he started humming. Hmm. And that's when Stack was like Sammie, play something. Mm-hmm. And that's when, and it's like you could say, and there were many different ways that it was conveyed without straight dialogue, but this was the origin of the blues. Right. And let's come to where you are inside of the juke joint. That central scene. And because I've watched this three times, the first time I watched it, that was the first thing that I just try and I, I tried to photograph it with my eyes and I tried to keep that moment because it was done so beautifully.

33:27KT: The textures to it as well. Grace also got some cultural points in there as well. As far as I understand people were saying that Igbo was being speaking Mm. Um, throughout the montage as well. And you see it all the way, like you said, there's a whole timeline, um, that we have. And it was hard to hear it in the IMAX, but because I went to the press screening, if you've got the money, friends and lovers watch it in all of the formats if you can. Um, but there was a moment where Slim said to Sammie, religion is what they brought to us. Blues is ours. Oh. Mm-hmm. And I'm like. If you didn't get it, it's right there, friends and lovers. Mm-hmm. And you know, it's been really, it's been really cool to, you know, what threads is popping by the way, black Twitter is still popping, whatever the fuck is going on with the ownership.

34:25KT: But black Twitter is still popping threads. Uh, there's also black threads. Um, no, but there is, but I'm like, who am I? But, uh, but they, like, there's so much vibrancy going on, and it's so beautiful to be able to see people speak on their own experiences. Um, you know, people also talking about their family members practicing hoodoo, but also being Christian. Mm. And I think it's one of those things, you know, friends and lovers, even if you listen to us, to our Malcolm X episode, we're not religious. Right. So it's, it's also cool to hear people that have that space for both. Yeah. And it's not as if they don't have the understanding of how religion was brought to everyone.

35:14KT: Mostly Christianity, but it's, it's, it's, it's all wrapped in identity mm-hmm. At the end of the day, especially in the South. So, you know, it's a beautiful thing. And again, that pretty much just encapsulated it for me. Miles is a standout. Um, slim is a standout for that reason. But coming to that musical scene, um, we haven't really talked about a lot of like, thoughts we thought of in regards to other films. I thought of Jeymes Samuel, I thought of that Dancing Blue Lady in The Harder They Fall. Um, maybe I even heard Jeymes Samuel's voice singing lady music through time. Um, but it, it reminded me of. That like it was a set piece that pretty much encapsulated, you know, the ethos and, and, and distilling the heart of this film.

36:16KT: Mm-hmm. It really makes you feel something. Um, I wanna talk about hoodoo for a second. Mm-hmm. And friends and lovers. This isn't even the first time we've talked about hoodoo. And I'm not even talking about Chucky. I'm talking puss-

36:34Oti: Leave Damballa out of this.

36:35KT: It's Damballa. Oh it is Damballa. You're thinking of the red man one. Yeah. Uh, I'm talking about Pussy Valley baby. Mm. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about the hoodoo. Um, even in the intro, shout me. Uh, narrating the intro, um, but talked about, you know, all different cultures. Shout outs to the Choctaw. I don't know if we're gonna get time to talk about the Choctaw, but, um, you know, there, there are, there are fire keepers and you know, there people within a community that are assigned that truth telling and the veil between the living and the dead.

37:19Oti: Yeah. And, and here's the funny thing, right? Hoodoo was part of African culture for the longest time? Say it. Uh, so when, when these folks came and they were like, oh, there's only one true god in his cross, he rocks some dreads or whatever, what version of a ponytail that is? Um, then you're like, oh, so you can't practice your shit. Yeah, this is the shit you need to practice. Bring your measles. You know, and, and that's the deterioration of, of a cultural religious practices because they cease to exist.

38:00KT: Yeah.

38:00Oti: Once this shit was forced upon people

38:02KT: Yeah.

38:03Oti: And were told, oh, you can't do that. This is the way. And now you're looking at Hoodoo as if it's some thing that is, is goes against your people, goes against your ethos when it was, was part of the culture

38:18KT: But it's who we are at the end of the day.

38:21Oti: Yeah.

38:22KT: And I, I love that you highlighted that. And I wanna give a lot of love. 'cause if I'm being honest, friends and lovers, I chose to go to IMAX for the second time and watch Sinners for the third time just so I could see Wunmi. She was so beautiful to look at in that 1.43 ratio. I just love seeing her

38:41Oti: smoke. Agreed.

38:43KT: Gimme all that smoke. But Annie was, oh, there's so many beautiful, there's so many beautiful layered performances that I could speak to. Um, but I just loved how rooted she was. Mm. Right. And that's something, 'cause it was interesting 'cause you saw it with Smoke where he would downplay it, but it's like you're still wearing the Mojo bag. My guy,

39:10Oti: the Mojo Bag that saved you,

39:12KT: but you're still wearing it. And also he didn't, he didn't challenge her. Mm. Which I think is also love as well. It's just respecting that they had different beliefs. No, it,

39:24Oti: it doesn't matter who, which God you follow, you lose a kid, it's going to fucking question or, or it's going to make you question the fundamental of any religion or any deity you think is out there because what the fuck,

39:39KT: Michael B. Jordan's best performance. But I wanted to kick him twice in that scene. Mm. Not because his body remembered ah, no. The way he said woman, I wanted to kick him. Um, and also when he said, why couldn't it save the baby?

39:54Oti: Yeah.

39:55KT: Yeah. Okay. And also, I wanna point on something that you said. You said it doesn't matter which God, it's not even God, it's the ancestors. Mm-hmm. And I guess if you don't understand that, then we're on different cultural wavelengths, uh, friends and lovers. But I just, I loved it because you're right, there's so much of. You can save yourself through salvation. And it's like, no, we've always had what we needed.

40:19Oti: Mm-hmm.

40:20KT: Right. Um, whether you just

40:22Oti: thought yours was better,

40:24KT: you just thought yours was better and you know, like, I don't know this, this highly processed world, unless, unless you're on Megan's side the side, I don't think anyone's gonna make it out. Um, because none of that makes sense of who we are as people. You know, connecting to the Moana, to the ocean makes much more sense to me than the highly processed new media. But, you know, there we go. We said we weren't religious, but we're culturally tapped in friends and lovers. Um, you already mentioned it. I called it Fellowship and love, and I also called it vampires, but I feel like it's exactly the same thing. Mm. In brackets of vampires, I wrote religion. Colonialism. Um, and, you know, shout outs to Oti, you know, there is love, but Oti, um, has to do a lot of long suffering, especially when it comes to me. Even from the first press screening, I came home and told you that Vampirism is a, is a allegory and symbolism for colonialism and Christianity.

41:33KT: Did I not?

41:34Oti: You did.

41:35KT: Okay. I wanna hear your thoughts.

41:40Oti: I think it's an allegory for religion and it speaks into, because we get, we, we are upon into Sammie or introducing to Sammie, you know, through the preacher dad, you know, this is the way you need to do, get away from the sinners. Mm-hmm. You know, the devil will find a way to come to you. Mm-hmm. And we know the definition of the devil and what they think that is. Yep. Especially from a, from a Christian point of view,

42:13KT: my heart, my soul, my voice belongs to the Lord.

42:17Oti: Mm-hmm. So when Sam is singing juke joint, it's all burning up, and then in comes Remmick. Mm. That to me stood as You could never el whatever experience or elation you're feeling at that point in time, that togetherness of what you think community is, there's that shitty thing there standing in the way.

42:46KT: Mm. Coming

42:46Oti: to interfere with what? With forming community, with forming culture that will come and try and rip and sink its fucking fangs into you. Who, because that's what they've been doing our whole lives. Who it was used as a tool to plat people. So colonialism can fucking thrive worldwide. It's a way that we, we know this is true. You can't fault it. Who are we to say, regardless of whatever fucking thing you believe in, why would people from fucking Europe come and tell you this is the true God. This is the religion and this is your your And you are less than Exactly and you are less than. And that moment when you are feeling your, you are elevated, you, you've got no worry in the world because you just know yourself. You're within community. You are forming your bonds. There comes in the vampire Shami, there comes in religion, Shami.

43:52Oti: That's how I took it. Yeah.

43:54KT: And that's the sermon on my mount. Mm-hmm. You can sermon my Mount, Oti. Um, I absolutely agree with you. I don't see how it isn't religion. It's absolutely religion. And I don't even think it was supposed to be funny, but one of the funniest moments in this film for me was near the end when Sammie started, what was the prayer? He was reciting

44:16Oti: the Lord's Prayer.

44:17KT: Is that Catholic?

44:18Oti: Yeah.

44:19KT: He was reciting that prayer. What do you mean Remmick joined in on the prayer because context clues, friends and lovers, that is the unifying glue all around the world. Catholicism, Christianity, clock it, it might mean something to you, but it was also a tool for colonialism. And that's an interesting, there's been some sort of discourse. I don't think we have the time or, um, you know, there, there's other places that we'll talk about it, but Remmick is Irish. Mm. Right. And you know, friends and lovers, um, feel free to do your own history research. Um, but there's a whole history of Catholicism and Protestants and colonialism in Ireland.

45:06KT: And Remmick even said as much in the film, but that doesn't warrant you to go around killing black people and then adding them to your coven. It doesn't work that way. My guy. And can I also point out, once they get bitten, they start dressing in their Sunday best. Mm-hmm. And so much of what they say is eliminating who you are. Right. It's, we welcome all of you, but we also don't acknowledge all of who you are.

45:36Oti: Yeah. Bend to who we want you to be.

45:40KT: And your soul gets trapped there. I remember when you watch there you are like, Ooh, stack goes on A good idea. What did he say? Um, when Smoke said No, no vision. No vision. There's nothing more scarier to me than the idea of first off, living forever. 'cause I feel like I've lived a long enough life. Um, and second of all, to be a vampire. Like, 'cause it is, it, it it's like, it's, it's like keeping your soul there and you're never gonna feel it again. Um, friends and lovers are, you're super nasty. So you might've listened to this and not actually watch Sinners, but there is a mid credit scene.

46:19KT: And it is one of the most beautiful things. Um, you know, we talk about signatures and trademarks of different directors montages. Is that for Coogler Mm-hmm. Because he does so much groundwork. There is a payoff in his montages, in his films. You saw it in Wakanda Forever. And we're seeing it in Sinners. And specifically what I'm talking about is when Sammie shout out to Buddy Guy. Um, but when Sammie was asking, he said that even before it all went down, that was the best day of his life. Was it the same for you that he asked Stack and Stack said Yes. It was the last time I saw my brother. It was the last time I saw the sun. And then there's a whole theme of feeling free, being free.

47:07KT: Are you truly free? Mm-hmm. Right. And. I guess to wrap up the, the vampire sort of element, um, I know friends and lovers, you know, other people notice the Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones. I notice the slavery with the nearest in Game of Thrones. That's just me. But I really do feel like Vampirism does have a through line for religion. Again, if it means something to you, that's cool. Um, if you aren't able to have this conversation because it's, it's, it's, um, us poisoning your, your views and your beliefs, you're welcome to check on yourself. I'll point, you

47:53Oti: should not poison whatever it is you'll believe in. I

47:55KT: know, but sometimes it gets personal for people's religions. But if you made it through our Malcolm X, where we were talking about the Nation of Islam, you can get through some catholicisms. Yeah. Friends and lovers. Um, I wanna talk about the cornbread scene. Mm-hmm. When we saw that as a part of the second trailer event. Mm-hmm. In the first 'cause I think they gave us three minutes. And now that we've watched the film, they've obviously cut parts out because Annie's character would say, say that you're dead. Right? Mm-hmm. So they cut stuff out, but we got the second trailer and we also got a three minute scene called the cornbread scene. And in the first 20 seconds we were, we, we knew what was happening, we knew what time it was.

48:42KT: So I was like, what are they doing in the next three minutes? Mm-hmm. And I guess if we, if we need to spell it out, friends and lovers, Cornbread was asking to come inside. Mm-hmm. Even if you ignore that part, and he is like, why don't you just barrel your big ass past the door? Why are you asking to come in? And this is where it gets very interesting friends and lovers, because I'm pretty sure for you, Oti, there was no doubt, right? Mm-hmm. For me, there was no doubt. Um, in our Kendrick Lamar, uh, rap beef series, uh, with Andre, we talked about it in Pet Sematary and I talked about, um, culturally how it works with, um, our spirits and sometimes the spirits that don't leave or that follow us, that should stay down in that grave, friends and lovers.

49:34KT: Um, and, you know, in various interviews, like it's something that I talk about a lot and also friends and lovers Spirited Away, love Hayao Miyazaki. But it's also in that as well, with Kaonashi, with No-Face mm-hmm. It's so universally culturally understood that you don't invite spirits in, even if the spirits look, act, feel, smell the way you remember them. Mm-hmm. And I wanna talk about that scene with you. I know you said that you wish we hadn't have seen it, but how did you feel that played into the whole film?

50:15Oti: Uh, I just said, I, I just, because I felt like when I was getting into it, I felt sort of taken out because I'd already seen aspects of it.

50:26KT: Mm-hmm.

50:26Oti: Which felt like, Hmm, I would've enjoyed this so much harder.

50:31KT: Yeah.

50:31Oti: If he was just coming at me raw. Um, but coming hard, raw. But in the context of, of that, like there was no way you'd let Cornbread in? No, yeah. 'cause then you compare how you know, even the differences between Cornbread and Grace.

50:58KT: Oh, are you ready to rumble, Oti? I think you chose the wrong fighter. Let's talk about it. Okay. Because I feel like we both had very differing views of Grace's decision. Right. I'm not saying that from a story point of view, from a directing film point of view. I'm not saying that there wasn't enough for me to understand. I'm also fuck them kids every day. However, I understand Grace's decision. I just feel like. Like, and I also understand that the story needed to progress, but I also feel like no other character in there would've done it except for her. Do you understand what I'm saying?

51:44Oti: Yeah. I understand what you're saying, Um, 'cause I remember watching it and I thought, oh, okay, it makes sense. She wants to go out there because you know, her kid, she's already seen her husband die and become a vampire. So, and threatening to go and kill the daughter. So it's, it was understandable to me that she would want to find a way to get up and to go and try and save the kids.

52:12KT: She didn't want a way to get out. She let the man big, selfish, that was before

52:16Oti: she threw the bloody. Opened the doors and let invited everyone in. She was

52:20KT: being selfish. If she really wanted to save her daughter, she should have just went outside. Why did she need to endanger everyone else? And do you believe anyone else in that juke joint would've invited them in?

52:32Oti: No.

52:33KT: Well, well, well, well, Variety, oh, Oti article. Well,

52:39Oti: well, well, all I'm saying is I understood her perspective a bit. I didn't condone her inviting everyone in, but she did get her come up and she died quite brutally. So

52:53KT: she died in a ball away though. That was a cool way to die. Don't you think? That's a bit of gatekeeping?

53:02Oti: Gatekeeping

53:03KT: by her being let in. She let them all in. How about that?

53:09Oti: Yeah.

53:11KT: You can't tell me. You can't tell me the layers aren't there, Oti?

53:16Oti: They're there. They're there. I, I just understood a little bit. I just,

53:20KT: I'm not even invited to your weekly meetings and I can see exactly clearly. Thank you.

53:28Oti: I hear you. I hear you.

53:30KT: Also, can I point out that Mary was the first one that was bit, that came in and infected the juke joint in the first place. Can I point that out? Mm-hmm.

53:41Oti: You can. It's not coincidence. I get it.

53:49KT: Are you wanting to talk about the logic and the halsey of it all, or not?

53:53Oti: yeah. Mary is, uh, one-eighth Black.

53:59KT: Wow. That gives your whole opinion without giving your whole opinion. It gives you eighth of an opinion.

54:05Oti: So she was justified. Uh, anyway, we see her trying to help Stack and, um, yeah, good intentions and all.

54:18KT: I also wanna point out that when Mary went outside and she started talking about her mom, Remmick fed on that vulnerability. Mm-hmm. And that's what Christianity and religion does, friends and lovers. No, I'm serious. Yeah. If you're emotionally vulnerable, that's kind of the best time to sink your teeth in. Friends and lovers. Mm-hmm. If you're that coldblooded. But you know, we're all about the warm blood over here, friends and lovers. Um, but yeah. Interesting. Love the film. Um, I wanna talk about Ladies Love Ryan Coogler from your perspective, Oti. Um, and I guess it also helped that we watched From Dusk Till Dawn because you can feel the difference.

55:05KT: You can feel the difference, and you can, it's very evident. That Ryan Coogler loves and respects women, especially black women.

55:14Oti: Oh yeah. They, they're written in strong. Um, you could tell there's a lot of thought and respect that went in all, all the characters he writes actually, you know, it's not just some throwaway, stereotypical sort of roles that they tend to have. Mm-hmm. So, kudos man. any other movie and, uh, you know, are the Titty Twister.

55:42KT: Yeah. Who

55:43Oti: would be getting a Titty Twister instead of a juke joint?

55:46KT: Well, your pussy is half on sale.

55:48Oti: I

55:48KT: slide my thumb. Me. And where? Uh, at.

55:51Oti: Wow.

55:53KT: You're welcome.

55:54Oti: Yep.

55:55KT: I just loved it. And it, it felt nice. It felt nice. It felt grown, it felt sexy. Um, and yeah, there, there were so many beautiful things to love about Sinners and I'm very excited to watch Sinners again. Um, and you know, it's getting a lot of love. You know, Spike Lee, Boots Riley, they were at, um, one of the IMAX screen testings. Um, it also reminded me a little bit of The Color Purple. Yeah. As well, like the OG Color Purple. Um, but yeah, like blown away. Absolutely love the montages. Um, I feel like montages is kind of like narration where people will do it.

56:43KT: Sometimes it doesn't necessarily have a purpose, but there's something about the way that Ryan Coogler layers. Story. Yeah. And the way that he builds emotion through the characters that really come to a release.

57:00Oti: Yeah.

57:00KT: With the montages,

57:02Oti: a hundred percent.

57:03KT: Thank you, friends and lovers for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. Uh, before we put up our pull quotes on Rotten Tomatoes and try and get it to 99%, Oti. Uh, what would you like to pair as a double feature for Sinners, if not double Sinners?

57:22Oti: Oh, I would say Ganja & Hess. Wow. It's, it's

57:29KT: Welcome to Jam, Oti, rock.

57:32Oti: It's old school. I think Spike did an iteration of it. Um, but yeah, some, some good old fun times.

57:41KT: Ooh, how about, I'll say two and then you can choose which one, Oti. Mm, Nope. Oh, and also Malcolm X. Malcolm X was also Warner Brothers as well.

57:56Oti: Yeah. Why not? Why not both?

57:58KT: Why not both? You know, as well, the setting of this film was also around the time that the OG King Kong came out.

58:07Oti: You know, my feelings about that move.

58:10KT: So for you, well-meaning white friends and lovers that like to downplay. King Kong. You can love it, but you also need to acknowledge it's fucking racist. Mm-hmm. Also, watch King Kong and be challenged and be uncomfortable. If you would like more challenging for your final fatality on Twitter, Instagram, Bluesky, Threads. We're at foryourrefpod. We're also on, uh, smoke and Span. Oh, Oti in Jamrock podcast. Actually, I can't remember if it was the global virtual press, or was it the actual screening, but they played Welcome to Jamrock.

58:58Oti: Yeah.

58:59KT: Um, find us friends and others podcast EVA Rating please. Um. And we'll see you guys next week.

59:10Oti: See you.