Samson & Delilah – We Gon’ Be Alright

Full transcript of Samson & Delilah – We Gon’ Be Alright.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household. And it's another year we can stand in solidarity with our First Nations, uh, specifically Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander fam. I can't believe it's been two years since the vote for the Indigenous Voice in Parliament, Oti.

0:22KT: They really be showing who they are and that's better. Keep that energy, and we can move accordingly. Um, friends and lovers, we're about to roll, um, a clip that we always play every January 26th, um, otherwise known as Invasion Day. We are a little bit early this year, um, but we're going to get it in there. There's also resources. Um, you can talk about resources if, um, in your workplace, you can talk about Supply Nation, um, also make sure at the bare minimum that your workplace has a RAP and even you individually can Pay the Rent.

0:54KT: There's also resources, um, to causes and organizations that you can donate to as well, um, and also just a reminder for our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander fam, um, just the trigger warning that the actors and, uh, you know, lives and experiences that we will be talking about, they may have passed away at the time of you listening to the podcast.

1:20KT: Get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers, welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host, KT. Where are you from?

1:32Oti: Not where I'm from because we're Indigenous. Ha ha ha ha ha. Oh no.

1:37KT: We are.

1:38Oti: Uh. ha ha ha.

1:39KT: And that's on solidarity, friends and lovers. It wouldn't be the For Your Reference podcast and it wouldn't be the residuals of 2024, if we didn't make a Kendrick Lamar reference, friends and lovers. Um, while we're here to satiate us, um, if you are looking for more blackfella entertainment, um, if you want to add to your list or you've watched some and you didn't know we had some podcast episodes, welcome, welcome, welcome. Um, last year we did The Sapphires. Still haven't forgiven Chris O'Dowd, but anyway, um, we also have Richard Bell's You Can Go Now, also on the feed, friends and lovers, recently did an interview with Larissa Behrendt for her most recent documentary, One Mind, One Heart, and she also directed the documentary for the Richard Bell, You Can Go Now.

2:31KT: It's all about law and legacy in the For Your Reference household, friends and lovers, uh, you know, just off top, we have Total Control, we have Mystery Road, we have Redfern Now.

2:47Oti: Yeah, we, we've definitely covered the law. And You Can Go Now is, oh, beautiful.

2:53KT: And while we're here, since we're talking about, um, the deliciousness and solidarity of all indigenous peoples, shout out to Live From Madman and also Madman Films in particular. They always seem to be championing the stories we want to

3:09Oti: You calling, are you calling them to the dance floor?

3:19KT: Oh, absolutely. And there will be references to Richard Bell, um, in, in some of the themes that we have today. But welcome, welcome friends and lovers. Um, you know, if you're not indigenous, and you're, you've got some colonial blood in your roots, You just got to sit down and you know, just sit down and listen and you might learn something. We're all leaving with something.

3:42KT: Um, but again, thank you so much, we will be covering Samson and Delilah.

3:48KT: Allow the still silent moments to speak truths to who you are and the love you deserve. Reflect with us as we review Samson and Delilah this week.

4:01Oti: Wow. You've pretty much got my review there. Yeah, if

4:15KT: and lovers for joining us. I um want to play a very short clip um of Warwick Thornton. Shout out, love lorded and Splooshies. Like, if we've covered something Blackfella, Warwick Thornton is definitely not in the background. He's in the foreground, if you pardon the pun. Um, Mystery Road in particular, cinematographer, and I even remember when we did the review, there were interviews that I was watching, and Warwick talked about how everything is cinema, even if you're watching it through your phone. And, anyway, there's, there's so much to say, I'm so excited to talk about, uh, this film today, but before we do This is Warwick Thornton at the 2009 Deadlys Awards for Outstanding Achievement in Film.

5:07Clip: you. This is, you know, this is incredibly important to me because you look, you look to the stars and you look, you look for recognition and I've looked all over the world for that recognition and the recognition is here. It's you, my family, you mob, you know, you voted for me, my country's voted for me and, and I've won and, and that is so special. That is so beautiful. Um, As far as Samson and Delilah's concerned, You know, I couldn't kick a football, but I could pick up a pen. So, and I was angry, and I wanted something, I wanted to say something, you know. So, all I can say to young fellas, and young girls is, um, Be angry, say something. You know, if there's a problem in your world, write about it.

6:02Clip: Do something. You know? Mark.

6:12KT: I don't even know if we can do a review. I think that's everything. Be angry and do something. Right? Yeah. Oh. Oh, so, You know, no pressure, but kick us off, Oti, with your non spoiler, um, pull quote. We spoilers, friends and lovers, but just in this section, non spoiler.

6:38Oti: Samson and Delilah quietly peels away life's veneer, exposing heartbreak, resilience, and some brutal realities. A powerful and unforgettable film. There's a reference to this episode and

6:53KT: I really appreciate that, know, um, well, I, I will continue. Samson and Delilah demands of us patience, attention, and empathy, not just for the characters, but also broadly into the world. The fearlessness in existing 'as is' as opposed to what 'should be' reflects an 'Australia' that feels possible and essential.

7:23Oti: Wow. You came with a one two punch of hope as well at the end there.

7:32KT: No, don't hope for shit, let's see it for what it is. Squabble up, colonial humpers, I'm coming through.

7:46Oti: Yeah, watching this movie was a journey. And starting off, I wasn't quite sure what the destination would be, but getting to be intertwined in sort of their lives. And I think the silence was so bloody loud that it broke through and with every, you know, you pay attention to every movement, every scene that much more. And the moments in the movie where I was really angry and the moments where I felt hopeful, the moments where I felt like I just, I just need like Cause I've been to, I've been here for, what, 10 odd years now or something like that.

8:47KT: Pauline Hanson us!

8:49Oti: And the things you notice, cause I knew very little coming in, and the things you see and learn and experience, and coming in and watching this movie,

9:03KT: like, fuck! Yeah. Fuck!

9:07Oti: Be angry! Be fucking angry!

9:11KT: Be angry at yourselves. Be angry at your racist grandparents. Be angry at everyone. Be angry at the, at the good happy whites. Be angry at everyone. It's, and

9:22Oti: the thing, right? It's because there's so many things covered in this that you might even actually have someone might have missed, because either you're not thinking about it or you just think it's some romantic movie, which it's like, I guess there was something there, but that was so far removed from everything that was happening in the, in the forefront for me. And like even just something as subtle as Delilah, you know, walking into town and seeing, Hey, What the fuck? My, my, my, my grand's picture is put on some display and they're selling the art for 22k.

10:04Oti: Yeah.

10:04KT: Yeah.

10:06Oti: I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing 10 percent of that shit.

10:10KT: Yeah, don't, don't worry Oti. We definitely have a theme. Um,

10:15Oti: I'm jumping the gun because there was a lot of little

10:18KT: there's so much, There's so much beauty, um, but you know, there's that anger and you're turning it into action. And I very much appreciate that. Written, directed Warwick Thornton. Um, Debut feature film, Oti.

10:37KT: We've seen what he can do all the way to Mystery Road and uh, New Boy that came out recently um, with Cate Blanchett um, which we haven't watched yet but it definitely will be one on the list in the future, friends and lovers. But this is his debut feature film. Done short films, but this debut feature film it won the Caméra d'Or at the 2009 Cannes Film Festival, an award for the best film at the Asia Pacific Screen Awards, and again this is going back to his award speech that you look to the stars for that recognition right and unfuckin fortunately that shit matters

11:19KT: right? Whether we talk about Parasite in the Oscars and you know it's going to be fucking white for the next like couple of years. That shit matters because it matters in what gets made. Right.

11:31Oti: Yeah. It matters on the doors that are open. It matters for the next, um, director or for the next actor that wants to be in the industry. They're like, Hey, so, you know, in as much as it can be fuck the industry, it's still, that shit matters for us to get shit done. Yeah.

11:49KT: Absolutely. And just quickly on the cast, we have Rowan McNamara as Samson. Marissa Gibson is Delilah. Um, we also have Mitjili Napurrula, who's Marissa's grandmother, um, playing Nana as well as Warwick Thornton's brother Scott Thornton, um, playing Gonzo. I don't think it needs to be said, and I say this with all of the love and compliments, um, that it was only really Scott that had some sort. of like acting class experience. Everyone else, non actors, I guess, however you want to call that.

12:29Oti: Mm hmm.

12:30KT: And I feel like that fully translated as well. But, um, again, friends and lovers, would strongly recommend you go and watch the film. Us going into detail, therefore spoiling it, won't ruin the experience for you. And if you are going to wait to come back, I just want to quickly say this in a non spoiler sort of section. was a humbling experience for me.

12:56KT: It was humbling to me because if we want to be wanky and we want to talk about film, we also need to concede that there is a frame of reference that we bring to film. Therefore, you can't necessarily say something is a bad film. Well, I guess you can, cause everything is subjective, But the film in and of itself is the film, right? And there are gaps that we fill in and who we are and what we've experienced and that sort of thing. This film really brought me together and gathered me in the most loving of ways to have that patience. To, to, to breathe through those moments that seemingly don't have a tangibility. But that's, what's so intangibly tangible about it.

13:49Oti: Yeah.

13:52KT: And it's those moments through life. And that was a journey I went on while I was watching this film. I didn't feel that way at the start. I didn't feel that way as it felt like we were getting to, did you call it daybreakers? Or?

14:09Oti: Yeah, it felt. There's a level of mundanity in their lives and repeatability and we get to see that sort of play out in the last in the first few frames in the first few scenes and it shows like it talks to something bigger it talks to the hopes the dreams the ambitions and all that um but yeah I think just how it was set up I think that's the most impressive bit, right? Because it could go anywhere and the direction it took is something that I did not even envision.

14:51KT: Yeah.

14:52Oti: And wow, I was just there for the journey and far out. I can't believe this is my first time watch for this movie. They'll definitely be second, third, fourth, fifth, because it's quite frankly that good.

15:06KT: And, you know, through the years, people mention this film, when you talk about Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander films, they mentioned Samson and Delilah a lot. And what I don't understand is, mathematically, where are we, where we are, if this is so many people, especially white people's favourite movie. What did you, what did you get and not get about this film? Cause it's literally all there, and I think that's part of the beauty. of Samson and Delilah and Warwick Thornton's visual storytelling, because what's understood ain't got to be explained. There's nothing that needs to be expounded. You just need to come, perhaps with the humility, perhaps with the patience, to see it for what it is. I think

16:00Oti: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think even me hearing about it, I think you, I took it as being some sort of coming of age story and

16:10KT: Which I guess you could, but it kind of downplays the The the layers and the complexity

16:16Oti: It does.

16:17KT: And the intersectionality as well. Um, before we go into the first thing, I don't know if you want to speak to it, but I do just want to put a note here. Um, You know, there are absolutely, we all have gaps, you know, in world cinema. Um, and I, I have a lot of gaps in general, but specifically in regards to, you know, First nation cinema in so called Australia. But I get, I would rather keep that than watch potentially harmful portrayals of my Indigenous family. Does that make sense? Because, it was interesting and you'll see it in the resources, uh, and also on our social media. I, um, put a call out for our indigenous friends and lovers if they want to recommend films to watch. Because at least that there's some sort of love and appreciation, even if it was made by white people, even if there are harmful sort of portrayals. But yeah, that list, that list has definitely got some that I potentially wouldn't even want to watch myself. So there's definitely a cautious sort of nature that I have.

17:29KT: Um, but I am so glad we watched this. I'm so glad we watched this film in particular, um, at this moment in time.

17:39Oti: Hmm. Yeah, me too. Let's

17:50KT: The internet, if you know where you're going, has rich resources. There is a Samson and Delilah website, um, and there is an FAQ section, which I took most of the notes here. Some of it might be, um, dodgy IMDb trivia, um, but there was a question in the FAQs, um, is this what it's really like in the community, right? And then it says everything in the film is based on what Warwick has seen or experienced in his life. Communities are really different. Some are small, some are big, some have more problems than others. Some have more services than others.

18:26KT: Whilst many communities are really amazing places and really well run. How did you feel, I guess, in the visual, um, portrayal of, you know, the setting in which we're in, in Samson and Delilah.

18:41Oti: Like, like,

18:42KT: Northern Territory. Shout out to the Northern Territory flag.

18:45Oti: Yeah, I've been here rambling about how much community sometimes suck

18:54KT: Yeah.

18:54Oti: and

18:55KT: there is a theme for that, but

19:00Oti: the portrayal of, of the community, you know, it's done. You can understand the context in which they exist and It, It sets up the tone of what your your feelings, I guess, would be towards the whole, at least carried throughout the whole movie. And, and for me, I think even just going back to things like, um, Rafiki and even Nairobi Half Life a little bit, it's, it's, it's the communal aspect of it that just, I can't get on board with. I understand the importance. I love community, but sometimes, man, Jesus.

19:42KT: It snuffs out, uh, the feelings of those that don't benefit or don't fit in the mold of who is the community, right?

19:51Oti: Yeah.

19:52KT: And I guess, the, like, I don't know, if, if you don't benefit from it or if you are, um, harmed by it, then that should be addressed as well. And culture is also a living thing.

20:03Oti: Yeah, it is. And I think one of the better movies that showed the of community in that regard was Mami Wata, and they did that so beautifully because there's your community and you love being part of the community it's people you love family everything else that comes with it um old traditions new traditions the balance between those two and um hump in their religion as well. And then you, you're cooking, you know, then, you know, what you, you, what you set up for and what you're battling against and what needs to be balanced. And do you have the tools? Uh, is everyone accepting those tools to carry forward? Otherwise you'll, yeah, we'll get to that in more detail about

20:53KT: No, let's stay there. I want to stay there. Um, in regards to the community, there was a question in the FAQs.

21:02Oti: This, okay,

21:04KT: This theme isn't funny, but again, we talk about our frame of reference and Sometimes you just got a lot of friends and lovers. Why does Delilah get hit by the aunties? Yes, let me read the response, and then we can get into it. Um, part of the grieving process in some Central Australian Aboriginal cultures Is the idea that someone needs to take responsibility for a death. That is very interesting. Can we hold that? I'm going to keep reading but let's hold that. That is interesting and I don't think I've ever heard that in other cultures, um, you know Tongans, Tongans blame each other for a lot of things but not for, not for death. It's usually the person or people most responsible for looking after the deceased That get beaten by other relatives as a part of the sorry business ritual. This is something that Warwick doesn't agree with, and he believes it's one element of the culture that should evolve. Look at you, Oti. Warwick Thornton Oti. The portrayal in this film shows the injustice of the act, and hopefully will encourage people to question that. And that's what good art should do, friends and lovers.

22:17Oti: Yeah, you don't hide your grandmother, you embrace the everythingness, you put it on the table so that you could move forward so you can talk about it and how it's portrayed I took it as has to be culture has to be

22:34KT: Yeah. It's not just for shock and awe.

22:37Oti: And um my frustrations throughout this because everything that happened within that was sort of tied into culture and

22:48KT: It's literally what you were just saying

22:49Oti: and it drove me mad

22:52KT: Yeah. Like, you know, friends and lovers, when it comes to this particular practice in all different cultures, um, obviously it is a touchy subject, we make light of it given the experiences that we have. Um, but, yeah, cause we're watching that and we're like, Hmm, this don't like, it only makes sense when it's culture. Um, and it's interesting from the point of view of, I've never really. Um, I'm sure there are other cultures as well, maybe even within so called Australia of other indigenous um, countries as well, but I'm like, yeah, this, this, this has got to change. Like this can't, this can't be, and it's not even from a judging point of view.

23:37KT: It's a contextual, I live, I love, and I see you. Yeah. Yeah.

23:46Oti: It's, it, it doesn't need to come off judgy or malicious in any way. I'm going to reference Moolaadé again, Ousmane Sembène, you know, talking about female genital mutilation where it's been part of culture, it's being practiced by highlighting the sort of, the need to evolve past

24:14KT: Yeah.

24:15Oti: while still saying, Hey, I respect, we know culture, everything's there on the table, but hey, safety, this shit is whack. So it's not here being like, Oh, I'm snooty.

24:29KT: No. No, we're not the UN, we're in the trenches, um, friends and lovers, but I love, I love that we're literally just living and breathing through this film. So naturally, if the themes go where they want to go, Oti, I will follow you, my Samson, into the night.

24:50Oti: Oh, you got, I got my locks.

24:54KT: Well, you know, like, I think it's very on brand that we, we focus on the culture and the heart of it. Um, but as our, our Bible correspondent, I would love to get a little bit of context because we have pointed out. It's not me, It's my Mormon upbringing that has given me some farcical fantasies in regards to what you would consider biblical law. So can you just give me just a very, very broad

25:23Oti: Telling me Mormons don't have Samson and Delilah?

25:26KT: Ask Hugh Grant, he knows. Feel like would make Hugh Grant cry. If I was in Heretic, he would leave me there with a blueberry pie. Wouldn't want to, he wouldn't want to dabble in my blueberry pie. Um, but just, just for me and the friends and lovers playing at home, Do you mind just giving like uh, just a general snapshot of the Samson and Delilah story, please.

25:56Oti: And Delilah was sent there to be like, oh, find his weakness because he can't be that strong. Um, yeah, and when she found out it was his hair, took Samson's hair. And he lost his powers, got locked up, and then in his final moments he was like, God, give me the power to bring this castle down! And he brought it down with him.

26:28KT: Didn't you tell mans to go to Turkey and get some more hair plugs?

26:33Oti: New clothes? Right? That's a cheat code. He could have just done that. But, unfortunately, technology wasn't that well back then.

26:43KT: I'm working on my Bible friends and lovers,

26:45Oti: My brother. This Mormon thing of you guys always writing books.

26:52KT: Well, if I write it, that becomes scripture, yeah?

26:54Oti: Yeah, it does.

26:55KT: Let's straight to it. There was the FAQ and this is so important. Friends and lovers, you know, we're the nastiest friends and the most beautiful of lovers. And we've mentioned in like, it's not a secret that we talk about the fact that we're not religious, right? And I just wanted to read this FAQ. Um, this is in regards to religion, specifically Christianity. At 13, Thornton was sent to boarding school in Australia's only monastic town in Western Australia. Although he later declared he became angry with Christianity and did not consider himself religious. And that was clear, can I just say, that was clear watching this film that I had a brother in non religious arms Because, I guess we can talk about it now, with Delilah and Nan, to go through everything that they were going through, and I guess even just trying to make a life for themselves, that energy that they had, they spent that on taking them to church.

28:03Oti: Mhm.

28:04KT: And in this country, well, actually, you know, sadly the cheat code is, um, it is kind of, a plug and play all around the world, friends and lovers, but Christianity is absolutely a tool of colonization. You know, like, uh, it might mean something to you. It might mean a lot to you. And that's absolutely something beautiful and to hold friends and lovers. But can't not have, like, you can't not

28:35Oti: You can't divorce the two.

28:36KT: Thank you.

28:37Oti: Yeah.

28:38KT: Absolutely. And it's, it's heartbreaking. But the thing is, I understand it. I understand why, and I understand how important, and I understand that religion will always exist, even though they were used to oppress. Whether we're talking about Indigenous people, whether we're talking about Black American people, whether we're talking about my family in the Pacific, please free yourself from the shackles, friends and lovers. But it was interesting to see, you know, even though there are missions. in Australia and you know, we didn't necessarily, to be fair for all characters, but even for Nan, we didn't really know much about, um, you know, her background story, but there was that sense of, uh, piousness. In regards to Christianity, especially in regards to the name.

29:29Oti: There's so many references everywhere, there was a bloody cross.

29:33KT: Yeah. They kept calling for Jesus. Where was he?

29:39Oti: Right.

29:41KT: Any Jesus. We'll take the white Jesus, the black Jesus.

29:44Oti: Yeah, and it's, it's something that you see so much of. Um, go to Kenya. There's heaps of churches. Go anywhere. There's probably a million churches. Go to any town that's sort of famished and you'll fucking find a church built in fucking stone standing in the middle. Looking all fucking furnished and all like, brah, I can't, I can't, um, just to bring it back to the movie, you see Delilah towards the end, she starts praying.

30:24KT: Yeah. Anyway. We've said it in so many episodes, but I'll just very quickly say it so it's on this recording. Um, if someone is guaranteeing you that they definitively know the answers for things, especially when it comes to the afterlife, you need to question that, friends and lovers, because the currency is your hope. And also your tithes, if we're being very honest. But it's that hope, um, and that vulnerability. Um, and I think it's cool, like, I think if, if, If religion is your thing, I think it's cool, but, like, again, like you said, you can't divorce the origin of it, you know, but I also have the love and the grace, um, for people that are religious, like, it's, it's where we are, and we're making sense of the world, and hopefully this is how we can move forward by coming together and And embracing law before colonization, right? And so much of this film, it speaks so much, like you said, the silence is so loud. And I want to go into, I guess the visual storytelling is the best way to describe it. There's minimal dialogue. Um, if you're a friend and lover that doesn't like exposition, this is the film for you. Because Nary an exposition was expounded. Um, but there's a lot that is communicated, just not through dialogue. And that, again, is, it was that humbling experience for me, because I am very dialogue driven. And by, by not having that element, I needed to let the other, um, the other layers of storytelling make its way through, right? I needed to allow myself to have the patience, um, to get into the film, but so much of it was so effective. You seem to be quite onto it from the start. Or was there a part where you were like, what's going on here?

32:36Oti: No, not really. I think the silence sort of helped

32:42KT: Yeah.

32:43Oti: narrow me, zero me into just focusing on everything that I'm seeing. Uh, the expressions of everyone and, Samson, and it wasn't up until much later where you realize that, hey, Samson actually doesn't, has trouble speaking. It

33:02KT: He just wasn't speaking. Yeah.

33:04Oti: So it added to, it added to the, to the story as well. So it was like, so zeroed in on this and just so invested in, in, in seeing Samson through with his struggles and Delilah as well.

33:22KT: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

33:23Oti: Absolutely agree.

33:25KT: Um, trigger warning, friends and lovers, uh, we're not going to go into any graphic detail and also. you can see the love and the care in the making of Samson and Delilah that it doesn't have those really, um, graphic exploity sort of scenes in regards to substance abuse. But I am going to put a trigger warning here. Um, I do want to cover substance abuse. I guess we're specifically talking about Samson, but also, um, Delilah as well, and Gonzo, um, in particular. You know, I've, I've mentioned before, like, uh, I was born in this country, I'm, uh, Tongan, and I grew up, I grew up in Western Sydney, so it was very multicultural, um, especially like, you know, it's, it's, it's where the people are. Right. I told you when we first started watching this, because we were familiar with Warwick Thornton's work, So I wasn't on edge, like oh my god is something yucky for the sake of shock and awe, you know like, was that going to happen? So I wasn't necessarily worried from that point of view I was worried more about the external sort of lens, which I never really think about, you know, even on this podcast, you know, we're aware that most film audiences or film listening audiences are white, but to me, we're always a black and brown space, right?

34:59KT: We're always the center. But when I was watching Samson and Delilah having grown up in this country, um, I was worried about this topic because it's literally in the opening scene. Yeah, where you have Samson and, you know, again, like what's understood ain't gotta be explained, nothing's explained in general But even like the cultural gaps that people might not have it was very clear. It was very clear What Samson was doing in the opening scene and I was already like, oh Again, not that there was going to be an exploitative Sort of lens inside of the film, but just on how disgusting this country is in regards to Aboriginal people and substance abuse, for example, especially for youth, for babies, for kids, they don't get the luxury of being kids, right? So I was, I was on edge and I'm like, okay, so people are saying that this is their favorite movie and we're seeing this and you know, it becomes a running theme. Um, in the film. I was, I was a bit, uh, I had some trepidation about it, but the way it was done in this film is absolutely the way it should be done. I don't think we should shy away from hard conversations. I also agree with you that if there's stuff inside of the community, it does need to be addressed, but it needs to be handled with care. And I think this was done really well, and I think there is an understanding, like, even though the dialogue wasn't where I would usually assign, you know, my thought thinkings and my heart feelings. Never needed to question or understand Samson. So even though we didn't, like, it took us a while to realize he wasn't speaking, we didn't think, oh, is something wrong with him or et cetera. Like for me, I'm like, that's just Samson. That's just his vibe. Like He just likes hanging around. Um, commandeering wheelchairs, you know, um, Warwick, one of the interviews, um, Warwick very sweetly was talking about when he first had a crush on a girl, and he didn't know how to speak to her, so he'll just throw rocks at her. Um, and it's heightened because it's in a cinematic sense, and it's heightened depending on the audiences that you are. but it can feel as a part of the story as it was in Samson and Delilah, um, with Samson sniffing the petrol.

37:37Oti: Mm. Because, so with the vices, again, I agree, a lot of the things that happened to those kids, no wonder, you know, um, even we get to see Delilah who sort of looked at Samson in a sort of, huh, why are you doing that for?

38:06KT: Yeah.

38:08Oti: Once she came back, and this is where like not having exposition or dialogue really just made it even cut harder

38:18KT: There's no hiding from it.

38:19Oti: You got the scene where Delilah was snatched up,

38:23KT: Yeah,

38:24Oti: uh, Samson a bit high, couldn't hear what was going on around him, sort of zoned out. By the time he turned around, Delilah was already put into a car by some random teens and driven off.

38:37KT: Yeah,

38:38Oti: But when Delilah comes back, Samson sort of just understands what's happened. You can see, well, she's beaten, but you can see a layer deeper you can see the emotion something's like oh oh and when she takes the petrol to now go and cover herself so she can sniff it in then it's just this movie it it was crashing me

39:06KT: Yeah.

39:07Oti: Oh my god

39:09KT: And, and I think that that's if there's anything to be taken from this film Is to have some fucking humanity and actually understand That there is so much that is out of our control Right, and even when you have Delilah's, like Delilah at the start of the film, she has a purpose. She's looking after Nan. She's helping to make the artwork to profit for the white man, but we'll get there, Oti. Let's stay in this moment. But Delilah has a purpose, right She has a sense of self, you know, she's, she's social in the community, but she's got things going on for her, right? Loses Nan, then the, we would argue, outdated, no longer needed to be had custom of fucking beating the young girl, um, and she's trying to make the most of. In the FAQ site, they actually had a term for how I guess non indigenous people refer to indigenous people trying to sell art. like you need legitimate means there's a term that I don't even want to say but it felt really slurry and really ugly but like You can't just go and sell your own artwork. We need to package it So the other us like the other whites can be comfortable with us selling this art, right? Like we just want to extract like nope, for example right? like we want what you make but we don't want you

40:45Oti: Yeah,

40:46KT: we don't want the presence of you.

40:48Oti: Oh, such a good story. They'll probably put Nan's picture there and be like, uh, Nan is doing blah, blah, blah. She's trying to help her community do X, Y, and Z by her fucking painting.

41:01KT: Yeah.

41:03Oti: Fuck off.

41:05KT: You can say it. I'll say it. Um, and then we get to the moment of her being abducted. Right? Like there's so much that happened to her. and we're also clocking that she's very young. Yeah. There's so much that she has to go through that a young white girl or a young non indigenous girl in Australia would never have to go through, let's be real about that.

41:33Oti: Yeah, Also speaks to the missing young indigenous women or just indigenous women out there that doesn't get reported or doesn't, you know, fucking get the same attention. And there's a lot going on in this movie that speaks to the harsh realities of what we, what we live in today. And for it to go or for it to be depicted by Delilah in such a way. Knowing just how young and how she sort of cut because before they left town she Seemed like she's you know So full of life so eager but It slowly disappears Samson sort of feels like he had a harder life before, and it sort of removed a little bit from expecting too much But fucking hell.

42:39KT: Was there ever a moment where you judged them?

42:48Oti: There was a moment I got sort of, I didn't understand Samson hitting, um, the ankle with the wood. I was like, what are we doing fam?

42:59KT: I think it's just getting his lick back.

43:00Oti: Yeah, but that was quite early in the movie and that's why I was like, um, all right. I understood he was getting his lick back, but I think the level of the veracity of it.

43:14KT: He needed to make himself known. It was, it was upsetting to me, but again, like, I feel that just for like my cousins and shit. it's like, shut the fuck up. You know what's, like, you're going to feel good in that moment, but you know what's going to come back.

43:30Oti: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but I don't think at any point I was angry at them.

43:36KT: Neither was I. Neither was I. And I, like, I wouldn't say that I, I definitely have a lot of work that I need to do. And maybe if I had watched this young, no, I don't think so. I don't think I would have. Like, there's definitely moments where, and this to me, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Like this didn't feel like characters to me.

44:01Oti: No.

44:03KT: You know what I mean like sometimes when you watch things and you get frustrated at characters but it didn't feel like characters to me it just felt like we were breathing life through Samson and Delilah That's, and I don't even know a non-whiny way to say it but again what's understood ain't gotta be explained. I felt everything that I needed to feel There was an FAQ, um, about Samson having a stutter like even before. Um, Um, the vices, and there was a question about is he a bit deaf, and Warwick Thornton said a lot of kids in

44:37KT: Aboriginal communities have ear infections that go untreated and can cause deafness. So he's slightly deaf in one ear, um, and apparently there are little, like, um, Easter eggs, and I'll leave that for you, friends and lovers, if you want to rewatch or if you're going to watch Samson and Delilah. Um, he could be waxy as well, so, I guess, you know, um, pick a path, um, friends and lovers.

45:02Oti: Is that combination and being high doesn't help? No. Yeah.

45:06KT: Absolutely not. And, um, I guess while we're here, it really is the Blackfella episode, Siya Kolisi, that documentary, uh, friends and lovers, we've also reviewed it on the podcast, but, you know, they, they made this shiny narrative and then they went back To tell the very real story, so it kind of felt like two separate stories, but, you know, even when they talked about his, uh, substance abuse, it's like, yeah, like, listening to the life that you had, and the, and the, the love that you were able to find in the neglect, yeah, that makes fucking sense. Who was there for you?

45:46Oti: Yeah.

45:50KT: You know who's there.

45:52Oti: Who?

45:53KT: White people. And you know what they be doing?

45:56Oti: To it?

45:57KT: Some mess.

45:58Oti: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

46:01KT: Um, we are going to be finishing off, uh, with this theme, friends and lovers. This is Richard Bell, Aboriginal art, it's a white thing.

46:11Oti: Mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm.

46:14KT: And there's the Bell's Theorem, friends and lovers. If you want to go and read it, if you want to watch the film, if you want to check out the episode. But I'll just read this section here. Aboriginal art is bought, sold, and promoted from within the system. That is, Western art consigns it to pigeonholing within that system. Why can't an art movement arise and be separate from, but equal to, Western art within its own aesthetic, its own voices, its own infrastructure? Can I get an amen, Oti,

46:53Oti: Amen.

46:54KT: I get a stomp?

46:56Oti: He got the stomp, the whole stomp and nothing but stomp. Um, watching, watching his documentary and understanding sort of the background of it and the exclusion of it whilst you're only valued for the thing you do, but you get no profit from it. Um, plus they treat him like some radical for speaking facts,

47:28KT: Right? Unless we're radical

47:31Oti: For him to get more recognition outside of Australia is wild

47:36KT: Yeah

47:37Oti: for him to be well more known in fucking London than he is wild in New York than he is wild. Like what are we doing as a people here? What's,

47:50KT: Well, my

47:50Oti: What's the fucking motivation? What's the process? What's when you're going to set up the systems to support the systems. What are you asking yourself doing that? Because it doesn't make any sense for you to acquire a value at a certain amount for a certain price that doesn't trickle down to the people who are producing it. It's fucking foul.

48:15KT: Yeah,

48:16Oti: That's just foul behavior. And I can't sit here and be like, oh if Bell is gonna say it the way he's gonna say it now. He's fucking radical. Fuck that shit.

48:27KT: Yeah.

48:29Oti: I'll be radical with him as well.

48:31KT: I'm I'm with it. In the FAQ, there was a question. Are Aboriginal artists really exploited like Nana in the film? Unfortunately, there are some people Too many, but there's, that's me saying that. Some people who exploit Aboriginal artists. There is a lot of information about this problem on the internet, and they're referred to as that term, I'm not going to say. It is best to buy Aboriginal art from reputable suppliers to ensure works have been appropriately acquired. There are many Aboriginal run art centers and organizations that work hard to protect the artists. Four Corners, which is an ABC program, actually did a story on it as well, which I'm looking forward to watching. But, um, we're going to go back to Samson and Delilah in a second. But, um, if we can get personal, just, just very, very surface level personal. Um, it was important for us to have Aboriginal artwork in our home. The piece that we selected, I felt an immediate emotional response to the artwork. But even the very, it becomes a conversation about how powerful the art is. and for whatever reason, the, would you call it stifling, would you call it watered down, Will you call restraint? The, The, the, the artist isn't as staunch as the art, I think is the way to say it.

50:14Oti: Which disappointed the fuck out of me

50:16KT: Right?

50:17Oti: like Because it's weird right if in my imagination be it You know Fucking fallacy or whatever, but I would imagine whatever work you produce you'd sort of hold the same motive or intention You rather than it just being, uh, uh, a facade of, Ooh, or it felt not really a facade. It felt like a, like a theory course, like a, like a, you're doing your thesis or something like, you know,

50:50KT: Like you don't want it to be the core of who you are. Yeah. Yeah.

50:54Oti: Oh, and you don't want to

50:56KT: So I guess from that point of view it did take away from the, the the intensity and the succinctness of the messaging in the art. It didn't for me. But that's a different conversation for another day Um, but I, I guess I do want to say while we're here, friends and lovers, you know, we're in the 2020s babes, like stop making art that is so passionate, that is so evocative that you're not going to stand 10 toes down with your whole pussy in this real world. There's too much bullshit in this world and we need to stand on it. Um, but I want to talk about the art in Samson and Delilah. You kind of talked about it already, but I, I just want to, um, reference the through line that we have with Delilah. Cause again, she's hopeful. She trying, like she's trying, you know, even when they, um, take the car, she's actually trying. And even you can see the quality of her artwork kind of dissipates by the time we get to her near the end of the film. she's still trying, but she's not at capacity, right. And when she walked in, I think it was the first time she walked into that gallery, that guy barely wanted to look at her.

52:22Oti: Like how dare you? Yeah. How dare you?

52:26KT: Come through the back door and get your scraps.

52:28Oti: Hmm. Nah. Nah. I can't. With this, fucking art galleries and museums can get fucked. Good. It was good talking about this movie. It's something that I really enjoyed watching. And it's definitely going to be on my Letterboxd 5. Oh, there's only four.

53:03KT: Did you get the premium? You got the premium blackfella version. Little Bix. Oh, and just like that, you've got your black joy, friends and lovers. Um, thank you so much for joining us another week in the For Your Reference household. I'm so glad we can have these conversations, um, you know, to, To the layers and the depth and I hope that we were honoring Um Warwick and all of the hands that created Samson and Delilah because there were definitely moments that we just sat in it. We're going to finish off in a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

53:57Oti: I would like to reference You Can Go Now by Richard Bell. Um,

54:04KT: I will reference Mystery Road. For the cinematography, because even when we were early on our baby journey, I, I noticed the visuals and I'm not even a visual person, and to understand. That there's a through line of Warwick's visual storytelling from Samson and Delilah all the way to today. Um, it's an exciting time and there are outliers out there that are successful and are doing the damn thing. If you want to see Oti lurking but me doing the damn thing on the socials, on Twitter, Instagram, uh, Bluesky, we're @ForYourRefPod.

54:43Oti: Podcast. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

54:47KT: We're also on donate and support grassroots, uh, causes and organizations, friends and lovers. If you'd like to leave a rating and review And we'll see you guys next week.

54:58Oti: See ya! Mwah!