Riders of Justice – The Cycle of life

Full transcript of Riders of Justice – The Cycle of life.

0:00KT: Hi. It's another week in the For Your Reference household. And guess what, Oti? It is the first written, directed, produced, and set in Denmark film or TV show we are covering on the podcast. Woo hoo. Let's get on with the show. Welcome, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast with your host, KT.

0:00Oti: And Oti.

0:00KT: Make sense of seeming coincidences with lovable friends you made along the way. On your bike with the Riders of Justice this week. Woo hoo. Woo hoo. Let's get into general stats and information. Directed,

1:04KT: written by Anders Thomas Jensen, starring Mads Mikkelsen, Nikolaj Lie Kaas, Andrea Heick Gadeberg.

1:13Oti: Nice.

1:14KT: It was released in November 2020 with a budget of estimated 6,400,000 and a worldwide box office of $7,900,000.

1:28Oti: Nice.

1:29KT: We we might not love Pamela as much as Borat, but we are aware with Pamela's paninis, it kind of got in the way of the release of this film. But I'm so glad that we have watched it, and I am glad that we're going to talk about it today. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, or ring, ring, ring, I think that's what bicycle bells sound like around the world. If not, it was my poor Australian bicycle bell. Okay. On your bike, Oti. Let's get into first impressions.

2:02KT: How did you feel watching this film? I will take all of the accolades. I introduced this film into our household even though Oti did introduce Mads Mikkelsen, and we are all most welcome for introducing him into our household. I introduced this film after we had watched Another Round, and it's one of those films that we wanna continue to watch a bit more before we cover on the podcast. So I'm glad we got to Riders of Justice, and I did introduce it. I am wanking myself off. Now it's your turn to edge, my love.

2:35Oti: Wow. A Mads wanker as well.

2:38KT: Mads wanker. That's all you need.

2:41Oti: As KT said, we love Mads, I think. He's brilliant, brilliant performance in Hannibal. Maybe keep in touch with whatever project he is doing. Yep. And we always try and sort of, you know, if he's doing a movie, we'll definitely watch it regardless. Uh-huh. So I was really excited about when you found this gem. It was in our up next list for such a long time just because we wanted to find ourselves in a space where we'd feel comfortable recording it afterwards. And I think once we got there,

3:14Oti: wow, I was not disappointed at all. I didn't know what to expect looking at the post. I thought it would be Major Payne myths something. Yeah. And I'm glad I

3:14KT: Wait. Was What? Woah.

3:25KT: Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. You're not just gonna We glaze we did we did lay some Wayans love for The Harder They Fall, but I don't that was a stretch. That was a stretch. Did you did you see the poster? We talk about lauding black cinema, but I don't think that's part of the building blocks or the foundation of black cinema. Major Payne, really? Wow.

3:50Oti: I thought it'll be ridiculous

3:52Oti: at the very least. Yeah. And I I I I'm not sure I've ever been glad to be wrong. I was really impressed by everything from the get go. Yeah. From introduction of Otto and him trying to explain everything, I was like, this is gonna be great. Yeah. This is gonna be this is right down our fucking alley. It's gonna be amazing. And I'm glad I wasn't disappointed at all. Not one minute, not one second felt as if it was it was longer than it needed it to be. It all just

4:19Oti: flowed so nicely and oh, fuck. I enjoyed it. And having watched so many duds for the past few weeks, I'm just glad we ended up with a fucking win.

4:30KT: Oh, yeah. It it really was the crescendo of our Saturday viewings of films that just don't even feel like anyone even in the screen is having fun. In regards to the tone, it did change, but it happened very cohesively. You know, I I was a bit worried that maybe it would be a bit too serious, it would be a bit too dark, but there were definitely moments of levity via the lovable misfits we learned to love along the way. In the best sort of compliments,

5:01KT: it reminds me of when you strike gold with great Korean dramas that are super serious, but they have their ragtag of friends and lovers that you just fall in love with. And they're so ridiculous, but the the it's committing to the bit. Right? And we had the characters, and it was anticipating how these different characters would interact with each other and also with the challenge that they were being presented with. And I absolutely love this film. You know,

5:28KT: pretension really gets in the way of me enjoying a lot of films. This film really just minded its business. It kind of cracks some necks, but it definitely was in its own world. And I absolutely enjoyed it. Absolutely. I'm actually new to Mads Mikkelsen because I didn't get around to Hannibal and we will eventually watch Hannibal.

5:28Oti: It's going to be explosive already.

5:28KT: Yeah. You reckon?

5:28Oti: A 100%.

5:28KT: Is it gonna blow my pants off?

5:28Oti: It's one of the best TV shows out there.

5:28KT: Okay. But not Spartacus

5:59Oti: Just one of the most rounded and best characters and you'll love it. You'll love it.

5:59KT: Okay. Alright. Well, those are some big promises, but I feel like

6:08KT: they will definitely be fulfilled. But really my first introduction to Mads Mikkelsen was watching Another Round and I absolutely loved it. I love the somber insular sort of nature of the film. And I also really enjoyed Riders of Justice as well. It gave us enough context, but it stayed within the actual story and what we were focusing on. We knew what we're going to get into and we got to where we were in spades.

6:08Oti: Yeah. Yeah. A 100% agreed, man.

6:08KT: Alright. Let's start off with characters. We're obviously going to talk about Markus.

6:42KT: How did you feel about him? He had some great character development. He did. If if a protagonist in a film doesn't have anywhere near as close character development as Markus does in this film, I don't want it. Mhmm. Oh, we've watched many movies where the character development for the protagonist is zilch. So Yeah, I don't want it. Return to Sender.

7:02Oti: I fell for his character. It was really hard for him to engage and be open and be vulnerable, you know? And you could see that sort of transpire with his daughter and how he interacts with even Otto and the gang. And to a point where I was like, maybe at the end of this movie, we don't get to see someone who's fully realized,

7:23Oti: but he's in the journey of being that. And I would be fine with that because at the end of the day, we know that he's been through shit, he's seen shit. And it speaks to the sort of what we do to our veterans once they come back or even if they're fucking active duty, the level of care and the level of attention that we need to pay to them or do we just, you know, it's alright. We'll leave them to their own devices.

7:48KT: Like, it's surprise to the general public how veterans are supposed to adjust themselves without any sort of issue, without any sort of assistance as well. And I guess friends and lovers, if this is your first time and you weren't anticipating us to have some real talk about universally around the world, how we need to treat our veterans better. It's 2020s. Like, can watch you can read and listen to surface level movie reviews, but that is not For Your Reference.

7:48Oti: For sure. And to me, I was like feeling sorry for him because

8:21Oti: we see him struggling being a father. There's a disconnect with Mathilde. And I was like, okay, cool. I understand that, I get that. And I feel like his journey's gonna be so hard. And these doofuses that come and join him, this fucking brilliant, brilliant doofuses who have their own trauma. Yeah. You know? And you said when when you you you you said that you you appreciate the the levity that it it had sometimes,

8:47Oti: It's levity that is brought by by decades of anguish for their part, for their suffering. Yeah. You know, the quirks we've talked about how Astronomy Club raised the point of, you know, we all talk about the good old fucking days. Were Getting beaten as kids. Yep. And how that affects our characters now and how we're like, we we we pretend as if, oh, it was all great, but we have these quirks now. Not being able to, like, sit with your back towards the door. Like, things that you think are quirks, but they're actual trauma. Yeah. And

9:18Oti: I think they portray that brilliantly with Lennart and Otto and the gang. Know? Was it was Emmenthaler. Emmenthaler. It was it was brilliantly done. Think once you sit back and take those pieces in and and this is what I loved about it. Yeah. They didn't linger. Yep. It was it was passed in the moment and you understood it. You could laugh at it and take it as a simple, oh, this is a joke. But once you realize that it's fucking those people are fucking messed up. Yep. Oh, absolutely.

9:48Oti: They're all messed up. And it's in all that messed upness that it brought them together and formed this sort of weird friendship. Nothing like trauma bonds. Nothing like fucking trauma bonds, mate.

9:59KT: But it's like, it can be unhealthy, but in some cases, if you've moved through it and you've dealt with it, it can be healthy to laugh at the trauma. And I think that's what we see. And even this is this is a great this is a great example of solid writing because even before we found out about Otto's backstory, him just generally caring and being super cautious, we didn't need to know the context. Well, at least for me personally, I didn't need to know why he was particularly that way

10:30KT: for me to buy that that's who he was as a character. It only enriched him as a character when we found out about his backstory and there were more layers of emotional Splooshies. Right? Yeah. But even the way that it was set was so beautiful and I absolutely love the way that it was set. But it's exactly what you're saying. This is an ensemble cast and everyone does get utilized and they're all very different. Mhmm. Right? They're not all George Clooney's with different sort of disguises.

10:58Oti: Yeah. True. Everyone brings their own piece to the table. Mhmm. And I just appreciated, you know, my love for side. The way he carries

10:58KT: My panties kept going missing.

11:10KT: I I don't I don't know if Mads wants my panties, but I will offer them for free.

11:15Oti: And he he just does a really brilliant job in in in portraying this character and bringing him to life. For someone that we care for, regardless of that disconnect emotional disconnect he has for himself and the people around him, we still connect with him as an audience. Yeah. And that's down to his fucking performance

11:33Oti: and how it's brilliantly written and directed. And it's just when we see that towards the end, I'm just gonna jump towards the end of his character sort of the story, he gets shot. And I think he'd accepted he's gonna die. And these guys come and start shooting.

11:49KT: Oh, the power of friendship with tears in my eyes. I fucking loved that. I was like, oh, oh. I was like, what the fuck? Even though one of them shot the daughter. The daughter here.

12:03Oti: It was suppressing fire shit from here. Very understandable.

12:09KT: Oh, that was so sweet and so beautiful, and I loved it. I loved everything about this film. Yeah. And he didn't he didn't hold like,

12:16Oti: he was very honest on what he's gonna do. Yeah. Can you stop talking? I'm not gonna punch you in the bloody face.

12:22KT: Yeah. I I don't understand why he wasn't in Wrath of Man with our Jason Stathams. Paid me to do a job? Did a job. I I like that. I really I really appreciated how pragmatic Markus was because I am a very direct person. Maybe not to the level of punching, but if I tell Oti I'm gonna do something if he keeps doing something, he's gonna find out very quickly, I mean what I say. Oh, wow. Not Ving Rhames level, Mads Mikkelsen level. Oh, but I really I really loved and I resonated with how pragmatic

12:59KT: Markus was. Friends and lovers, for those that are okay if they have current Christian beliefs, we do have Prince of Egypt and we also have racist ass Mellie Gibby's, The Passion of the Christ. So we talk a lot about religion there. I'm probably not well, depending on how far I get into this episode, I I probably won't go into detail now, but I really appreciated how pragmatic Markus was. Although on the podcast many, many times,

13:28KT: I do acknowledge that religion is important and it will always exist for the main reason that people need comfort when we lose our loved ones. Right? It's a way to explain the unexplainable. But at the same time, if someone says they have the answers for things that shouldn't have answers or don't scientifically have answers, I take qualm. But that's a story again for another day. But he was very pragmatic about it even when the that was the most realistic, like, cold, like, just terrible not terrible, but it was a very realistic and cold

14:03KT: sort of sermon that the priest gave. Right? I I didn't even see that coming and I'm a very realistic person. I was like, oh, wow. So, you know, when Mathilde was trying to confide in Markus, he was like, there's no such thing. Sometimes things just happen and it's terrible and we need to find a way to get through it. And I really appreciated how pragmatic he was. But also at the same time, I wouldn't wanna take that comfort away from people.

14:03Oti: True. It's a double edged sword because

14:33Oti: we see him his his pragmatism and his how he sees life, he he shoves it down to Mathilde to a point where Mathilde feels like it's all useless. Yeah. She can't no. She's struggling with her being a bit she's struggling with her weight, you know, and, you know

14:33KT: There was a lot of fat shaming in this movie.

14:33Oti: There was. There was. And and it's all down from, you know, Markus's strict military, do these drills, run three times a week, you know. It's

15:03Oti: all down there, and Mathilde is just she doesn't want all that from the father. Yeah. She wants a bit more tenderness.

15:10KT: Well, I think it was just too soon. Like, the mom literally just died. And not only that, she died in front of her eyes. Like Mathilde was there when the mom died. I have a note here saying the only the second person to hate Coca Cola more than Cristiano Ronaldo is Mads Mikkelsen in Riders of Justice. Because he was not a fan. That that that disgust and disdain that Cristiano Ronaldo had But when I don't think the stock prices plummeted after Riders of Justice

15:43KT: was released. But yeah, there's yeah, it it was definitely so raw and especially because she's so young, she's still trying to make sense of it. But then again,

15:52Oti: religious parents shove it down kids' throats anyway, whether they choose not to or wherever. But I do feel like it needs to be Mathilde's journey to discover the owner's self. Yeah. It needs to be hers. Because we all were influenced by our parents' religious backgrounds and beliefs and whatnot, and we had to find our own path. And I feel like-

15:52KT: Well, your own path needs to be in a different house because it's not under that household.

15:52Oti: True. But but I stood firm.

16:15Oti: I I I really did fight back to to to state what I believed in at the time. Mhmm. And I'm lucky that my parents were were progressive enough to understand that, you know what? At the end of the day, it's my fucking decision.

16:15KT: That's wild, by the way.

16:15Oti: It is fucking wild. Right?

16:15KT: You as a child choosing that you're not gonna go to church anymore.

16:15Oti: Yeah. Because I I used to ask questions that they didn't fucking answer. And at that point, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna make my fucking decisions from now on.

16:15KT: OG Catholic as well. That's interesting.

16:15Oti: OG Catholic. And Yeah. To this day, I I I still am shocked by that, you know? It's not very very many people can say that, you know, to African parents. That's fucking wild. But

16:53KT: We acknowledge your trophy on the mantle piece, Oti. Yeah.

16:57Oti: But, wow. I I was like, Mads needs to relax with that stuff a bit, you know? She's lost some she's seen her mom fucking die.

17:05KT: But can we also give some credences to Markus? He did love Mathilde. He just it was within his limited capacity to love himself. Yeah. Because if you don't love yourself, as you could love someone with the passion of a thousand suns, but if you don't love yourself, there's only so much that you can expound on them. True.

17:27Oti: And I think it's one of those things where with Markus' sort of background, he sees people die all the time. Yeah. He doesn't get to think about, oh, am I gonna go to heaven? No. Not gonna do it. He won't be able to Because once you're fucking dead, you're dead, and that's it for him. Yeah. So when he comes and portrays that same energy to the daughter, always still feeling the rawness of losing the mom. It's it's I don't know. It's a bit wild.

17:53KT: Yeah. But it's it's one of those things when you're like, when you're feeling fat, the last thing you want is like your partner to say, yeah, you are fat. Like sometimes you need

18:01Oti: You know, babe.

18:05KT: No. But sometimes, like, the truth is necessary, but it depends on the moment. Like, read the room and let people have their peace. But Markus, I think he he definitely loved to the limited capacity that he had to love within himself. And there was a very powerful moment in the film because a lot of the time, like his ragtag gang as well as Mathilde boyfriend, and they became even more annoying. I'm assuming that's how

18:34KT: the not us, gen z. We're not even the new generation. You know, we're at a point now where even us saying kids isn't ironic anymore because we're old enough that it sounds like we are referring to the younger generation. Yeah. But anyway, coming to the very powerful moment in this film, there were so many moments and missed opportunities, deliberately missed opportunities that Markus chose not to take Because again, like as great as therapy is, if someone's not ready on a lighter note, when Michael Scott was trying to take Meredith to rehab.

19:10KT: That's The Office reference. We we appeal to all the mainstream nerds, friends and lovers. But, like, if if someone whether it's therapy or whatever it is, if someone isn't ready to change, the whole process is never gonna work. Even if they go through the motions, it's never going to work. And Markus wasn't receptive to it. And it wasn't until and what I really love, and I wanna talk about it succinctly as a particular topic, but just in this particular snapshot, he found solace in what makes sense, in being pragmatic,

19:44KT: in in in in facts. Right? And very interesting. I I love the way the writing was, but I don't wanna touch on it too much. But in any case, he bought in to the plan because it made sense. There was too many coincidences for it not to make sense. Therefore, he was ready to channel all of his rage and even the sense of revenge into whoever they were hitting at that particular time. Right? And it comes to a point in the film where he realizes very minuscule

20:17KT: that they were off. Right? Yep. And he ended up killing an innocent person because killing when you're out in the field, there is a sense of having to demonize the enemy. But again, we don't demonize those that choose to fight because until we get to a point where they don't need to have wars, they will need to be soldiers. So we're not demonizing soldiers at this particular point. But in order to do that, there is a sense of demonizing.

20:41KT: So it justifies the killing that happens. Right? But in this particular instance, he killed an innocent man. Right? He called it a mistake, which I thought was very cute. He slapped the boyfriend and he like wring someone's neck and it was a mistake.

20:54KT: But when he got to that moment and he was in the bathroom and he started smashing everything and to the point where the whole bathroom was turned upside down and he was bloody and he it seemed like he went into shock because he he might have blacked out and he didn't even realize what he was doing. Right? And he was saying to Ora, I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm scared. That was his sense of catharsis. Unfortunately,

21:18KT: it was a pressure cooker and it got to a point that everyone around him that grew to love him didn't want him to get to that point. But in any case, he needed to decompress and it happened in that moment. And it was so raw and it was so vulnerable.

21:32Oti: True. I didn't think it would affect him like that because once he realized he's just killed a bunch of people for no reason. Yeah. Yeah. I thought he'd be like, you know what? Yeah. Too bad. Not bad guys anyway.

21:45KT: But wow. There was the death of his wife. There was trying to make sense of the grief of Mathilde. Like, there was so much that he was dealing with. It was all channeled into there and it was yeah.

21:45Oti: They're generally bad guys. So me killing them and feeling any sort of release from that,

22:02Oti: it's a win win. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you want to be able to explain why your loved one passed away. There has to be a reason. Fuck coincidence. You know? You want a reason. You want a reason to justify to yourself, okay, it happened because of A, B, and C. Anything short of that, you just I don't know. It's hard to fucking comprehend. Yeah. So when it happened, I thought, oh, wow. He he's just gonna shove it under the rug, continue compiling all this shit, and I'm glad he did it.

22:27KT: Yeah. It was very sad. It was very sad. Even when we had the moment where Otto kept trying to appeal to him, I don't know. Even if you have similar experiences, stop trying to force people to heal when they're not fucking ready.

22:44KT: Right? And Otto kept doing that in the car. And Markus is like, shut the fuck up. I'm gonna punch you in the nose. And Otto kept fucking talking. I'm like, this is not your place, bro. Like, at this point, it's kind of about you because he told you to shut the fuck up and you keep fucking talking about it. Justified or not, he said what he said and he did what he said. Right? But there was a moment where we had that tenderness with Lennart and Emmenthaler,

23:11KT: and they were talking about very nonchalantly because they have they've known this for years about his backstory, about the fact that that his kid died from his own hands. He crashed into a tree and there's nothing he can do. There's there's no recompense. There's no reconciling. There's no, I'm so sorry. There's no last, I love you. And I guess that sense of regret that Otto had,

23:37KT: he didn't want Markus to have that. But what friends and lovers, I guess it's a lesson for all of us. What we need to acknowledge is the the pain that we're trying to heal from, we shouldn't try and heal it through others. Yeah. Because that's what Otto was doing.

23:37Oti: Yeah. I think the most meaningful sort of message from this that I got was that shit happens sometimes, you know?

23:57Oti: It doesn't have to have a fucking reason. It doesn't have to have a face either. Yeah. Yeah. Because they try to explain, at least Otto's job is to try and explain all this. Yeah. Or he tries to figure out why things happen for whatever reason, and we see that leads to them falsely identifying someone because they lowered the accuracy.

24:16KT: Yeah. Something Emmenthaler was super against. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, and while we're talking about Markus, Markus and Mathilde getting Emmenthaler the French horn. Oh, wow. Oh, that was such a beautiful I cried two times from the spirit of friendship and the French horn. It was so beautiful. And even when like, obviously he's rusty and Lennart's like, I swear to God, if I have to listen to this one Oh, but oh, it's such a beautiful film. It's such a beautiful film. And, you know, it really found a way to even the contrasting tones

24:56KT: throughout this film because we get some really cute ridiculousness, but we also get some really deep resonance in this film as well.

25:05Oti: Let's talk about Mathilde. She's struggling with the dad being away all the time. Yep. You know, she's sort of accepted that he's not gonna be here. Well, fuck. It is what it is. Mhmm. You know, and the mom tries to cheer up when the dad is extended for another three months. Yep. And again, governments need to stop that shit. If someone's due home at a sudden date, don't fucking extend that shit. Yeah. They have families. They have people waiting for them. Even if they don't, on your own Yeah. Let let them take a break, mate. Yeah. Let them decompress.

25:36KT: Fucking hell. Just terrible. Absolutely terrible. I think it makes sense. I think it makes sense that Mathilde ended up with Sirius. And I guess it's also like as teenagers, I guess depending on the life that you lived. But when when we're really young, we don't necessarily understand that a lot of the theoretical sort of discussions are actual people's lives. And Sirius seemed as though he came from a privileged enough background to kind of

26:09KT: see it as a game, like trying to understand Markus was like a puzzle to him. But that kind of worked well because I think any any other bonehead

26:20KT: kid would have been really upset about Markus slapping him.

26:20Oti: Yeah.

26:20KT: Right?

26:20Oti: I thought it was just a little tap, but that shit left his car.

26:28KT: No, that was a full grown pimp slap. And he's like, I didn't mean to hit him that hard. I don't know. But this is a bit annoying to me, but maybe I need to give credence because they're young. But I hated how he was treating Markus like he was a little guinea pig, you know? And him trying to transfer. And I guess this is a unofficial PSA friends and lovers. Just because someone in your proximity has qualifications doesn't mean you do.

26:58KT: Because he kept trying to like, and I guess, you know, that kind of helped to get away with the aloofness of the group. You know, him talking about alternative, you know, treatments and that sort of thing. And I guess it's a light thing. It's not that serious, but it did kind of annoy me that they seem to what annoyed me the most in particular with Mathilde, but more so Sirius because obviously he has that sort of influence on Mathilde,

27:26KT: was when they were at the dinner table, they had cooked a very nice dinner, a very nice dinner, but it was under the guise of like an intervention for Markus. I'm sure the food didn't taste that good after he realized he was trapped. And they were like, oh, you need to go to therapy, you need to do this, you need help and you need all of that. And I'm just like, bro,

27:46KT: like, is this so you can blog about it or what? Because Markus is obviously not ready. He's not ready,

27:46Oti: but I I don't think he gets there without the push at all.

27:46KT: Not from those two teenagers.

27:58Oti: They played a part though. They were there, if that's what you wanna say. They were present. Don't think it exists in a vacuum. I think they did play a part in Markus opening up a bit. Because at the end of the day, Mathilde is there. She's a daughter. And at least the cool thing Sirius kept on reminding is, you can't treat her like that. You need to be a better father to my child. But who are you to say that? How do you even open your Me, which is speaking? Be

28:27Oti: like, you can't treat KT like that, mate. I'll put my foot down.

28:27KT: Were you whispering? Because I've never seen

28:33KT: I haven't heard you say with your full chest. I'm still waiting, my love.

28:40Oti: But it's it's honorable, mate. She loved he loved her that much to step up. Not many people would do that.

28:40KT: It wasn't a Mary J. Blige Real Love though.

28:40Oti: Well, after being bloody pimp slapped like that, Belle, quail.

28:57KT: I'll leave the Tumblr and the Myspaces to them, I guess. Let's talk a little bit more about the crew. We've talked a bit about Otto. Let's talk about Lennart. This took a turn. He kind of became the Joe Swanson of the group and him being the psychologist because he spent four thousand years going four thousand. Four thousand hours going to therapy. He was really projecting and it got really sad. It got very sad very quickly when he was having the initial session with Mathilde. And we see it

29:35KT: like, could literally call it the Markus Car supercut where he just put all the scenes of him threatening to kick people out of the car or to punch them in the car. Right? But like, Lennart has one of those moments and he runs out into the field and I think his trauma response just kicked in immediately. Like, he wasn't even like aware of what was happening. He might've just interpreted it being his dad or his uncle coming towards him. And he just immediately assumed position that unfortunately he might've had to do many times in that barn.

30:05Oti: It was fucking sad. Yeah. And it's it's good when you saw Markus's face when you realize that Something's going on here. Yeah. Yeah. It's not him playing dumb or it's just a survival instinct, you know? He assumed opposition. He was crying out for he's sorry and like, it was sad, you know? And I don't know how much I've laughed at that. That was really, really terrifying and really gut wrenching for me to see that.

30:38KT: It was. And we we see, you know, his first interaction with Bodashka when they go to look for the guy that isn't the guy, and he's kind of there as a table. Right? And there was a really heartbreaking moment,

30:55KT: you know, after they've all had dinner and they're all settling down for the night and Bodashka is like, do you wanna fuck me so you can sleep well? And then he's like, no, that's fine, buddy. And that's heartbreaking. Like it's actually I cried more than twice. I had sad tears. I was talking all about my happy tears. That was a sad tear.

31:14KT: And Bodashka was like, thank you for saving me. And then the next thing he said was, thank you for not fucking me. Yeah. You could tell what he's been through. You know, he he doesn't hide from it. He's lost bodies.

31:26Oti: Yeah. It's sad. It's a hard life and the way he was Basics of Africa, wasn't it? Yeah. The way he was taken advantage of, oh man.

31:35KT: But even it was the mom having too many kids and she decided to sell off kids. Yeah. And that's a whole different topic for another day. It is. And it's wild that we have the full breadth of human emotion even discussing this film because that's how successfully it was laid out in this film. You have moments that are so ridiculous and you have moments that are so real and so sobering and even as an audience, we might not know what to do with Bodashka's story,

32:06KT: but I'm glad that it didn't there. I'm glad that they presented it in the story and they gave characters the space and then the dimension for us to be able to, at least vicariously, at least through a film, have some sort of understanding of what they might have gone through. True.

32:25Oti: Were you surprised when Markus let Lennart become Mathilde's own shrink?

32:31KT: Well, I think it just played to the mood of the scene, and there was really no other way. Like, what's he gonna say? I met them down at the pub? I don't think so.

32:43Oti: True. But Lennart is very, very confident with the skills. Yeah.

32:51KT: Like, can you can you hack in without being detected? That was funny. What a ridiculous question. Like, we get it. We get it.

33:00Oti: You're amazing. They'd laugh for like a minute nonstop like Yeah. The fuck? What kind of question is this? Yeah. The nov.

33:08KT: The audacity. What I really love about the trinity of friendship, Emmenthaler, Lennart, and Otto is they were so masterfully skilled in what they did, but they also had eccentricities about them as well. And I really enjoyed that, like, even Emmenthaler with his wires and Markus is like a really serious he's a straight man in this. Right? So he's just trying to come here and help. And he's like, you're too close. Please move away from my wires. Just get away from my wires. I love the eccentricities.

33:44KT: And we haven't even talked about one of the best scenes between Otto and Lennart was when they were presenting their research. After forty six weeks, Oti, you can probably speak to this, having a pitch and get research and funding and that sort of thing. After forty six weeks, they don't need to back up their assumptions. They need groundbreaking research at that point. Yep. That poor people drive Kias and rich people drive Mercedes. You spend all that time. Oh, your algorithm had to tell you that?

34:14Oti: It's a possibilities, mate.

34:18KT: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But it really fed into, you know, the actual personality of the characters. And like every time we got into a scenario, it was always nice to anticipate it. And speaking about anticipating it, there was a scene between Otto and Mathilde near the end of the film where, you know, Otto keeps talking about coincidences, but it kinda just sounds like real proper investigation. But anyway, like, those detectives were, I don't know what they were waiting for, a 100% rate on doing 0% work. But we have Otto, you know, presenting these coincidences

34:56KT: and I love it. Like, because he was talking about, you know, the sandwich and the drink and how no one would spend £14 on this and throw it out. No one has the money to do that. Whether it was terrible sandwich, which we come to find out later and the drink sounded tasted like camel piss. No one no one would do that because that's a lot of money that you're forking out just to throw away. Right? And these are seemingly nothing sort of scenarios.

35:26KT: But when you put them together, they form a picture that is formidable kind of because later on we find out they got the wrong guy. But we have a moment with Otto and Mathilde where Otto sees all of the post it notes that Mathilde has put up as well. And this goes exactly to what you were saying before. Whether religion is right or not, whether it will work for Mathilde or not, she needed to process it. She needed to,

35:52KT: you know, whether it whether it's ongoing, but in that particular moment, she needed to make sense of her trauma. She needed to make sense of her mother's death.

36:02Oti: Yeah. And the thing with Otto's sort of perspective on coincidences is there's a lot of more variables than he's accounting for. He's only accounting for variables that are in his fucking sphere of influence. Yeah. He didn't take account to other ethnicities being spending that €14 on a sandwich and and Coke that they're not used to, and it tastes rubbish.

36:24Oti: There's a million other extra things that they cannot account for that

36:24KT: Well, let's no. Let's let's address the people of color in the room. If you spend £14 on a sandwich and a juice, even if it was gross, you would throw it out?

36:34Oti: I'd fucking throw it out. Kiss off. Mate. You've been living this life over here for too long, mate. I came here and I thought I'd have a Big Mac and it will fucking blow my mind or it will change my mind. I'd throw that shit in the bin if I was out there. I'd be like, what the fuck is this nonsense? Fucking movies making this thing look good. Fucking idiots.

36:57Oti: I'd throw that shit.

36:57KT: You're not loving it?

36:57Oti: No.

37:03Oti: Well So there's there's extra

37:03KT: There's Otto's research and Oti's research. You decide where you lie, friends and lovers.

37:03Oti: No, like, and I was proved no, I was proved right. But at the end of it, we get told that he didn't enjoy that just because it's not what he's used to. He appreciates Just something

37:20KT: because the man wasn't Danish, therefore you were correct.

37:20Oti: No. No. Just because of garbage food. People are different.

37:20KT: Okay.

37:20Oti: Just because you think your people will not throw away €14,

37:32Oti: it's different for someone else, for someone else's background. So it's not all fucking linear. You know? It's it's like you can always find a reason. You can always try and find little piece and pieces that would fit together for you to for you to solve this, to have this cohesive narrative to you. But is that the truth? Probably not. Watch Jim Carrey's fucking 23. He saw 23 fucking everywhere. Okay. It's it's it's

37:58Oti: you can find things that you're looking for to make you believe that. You already believe that the accident wasn't the train crash wasn't an accident and you wanna think that it it was intentional, then you'll find everything to fit your your narrative and you'll find it.

38:09KT: Well, you're going down the QAnon loophole because whatever you believe, you're going to find at least one other person on the interwebs that agrees with you. Exactly. So it's only going to reaffirm what you believe or what you want to believe. And I guess that's a really important lesson to moving very swiftly away from QAnon is that in any case, unfortunately, there is a death that needs to be grieved. So however it happened, the grieving still needs to happen.

38:41Oti: And I think that's a lesson for everyone in this film. Yeah. Because you could always find for reasons or try and find reasons as to why. It just wouldn't do it though. At the end of it, you need to let it out. You need to accept it. Mhmm. And life is fucking bad. Just life.

38:58Oti: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And at least Otto comes to realize that as well. You know? And it's a full circle sort of development with him from where he started off.

38:58KT: Well, yeah. And it's like, it doesn't matter. There's no timeline on healing, you know?

39:13Oti: True facts, man.

39:13KT: And maybe Otto was at a point where he could live a normal life. And then maybe just a lot of the feelings would have resurfaced after, you know, he came to try and make sense of the whole situation. I love how, you know, the whole messaging throughout this film is things can feel like coincidences, but they really contribute to an overall decision or like a branch of the goosebumps path, if you will. Something so simple as a girl in Estonia asking for a blue bicycle

39:51KT: kind of kicks off this whole event. And what I thought was really interesting and added some extra texture, even though Oti doesn't care for the Otto texture, was him offering the seat to the mom also caused her death. Right? But how did he have the mannerisms to even offer a seat to women? Right? And then that becomes its own branch in the past. So I thought it was quite interesting. Like, it was the I've never seen The Butterfly Effect, but I think this is what I will refer to moving forward.

40:22Oti: True. And, you know, he thought himself twice lucky or twice disadvantaged or whatever. Yeah. You know, he survived the accident with his own daughter. He survived the train crash. And it's just too much for it to be coincidence random coincidence, random chance. If he didn't offer, you know, you can start pulling that thread and it'll take you nowhere, mate.

40:22KT: I don't have a thread because Mads has all my panties.

40:22Oti: I told you. But I appreciated Otto's character.

40:54Oti: We saw I think, at least for me, I saw myself in him trying to find reason behind all the shit that's happened to me or all the shit that's happened in life. Yeah. Or, you know, for whatever reason, we try and find these things that we can grab onto and to make sense of it so that we don't feel like we are not in control of stuff.

41:14KT: There we go. That is the For Your Reference nugget, friends and lovers. It's a sense of feeling of in control. Yeah. We all wanna be in control of our own shit. We wanna be like maybe anyone else but Jon Snow in the Night's Watch. Like we wanna be aware of any sort of incoming like dangers essentially. That's essentially the crux that we're getting into. But is there anything else you wanna say about any of the other characters?

41:14Oti: Yeah. We can talk about the Riders of Justice, the gang.

41:43KT: Friends and lovers, whatever timeline we're in, whether it's before or after this episode, we talk about the Irish show Kin and every other drug show that's around. You need to know the rules of the game. What I didn't understand,

41:59KT: what didn't make sense to me at the end of this film was one of the guys looking at Markus saying, what did we do to you? Nah, bruv. If you're in the game and you're deep in the game and you're one of the big players getting all of the money, it doesn't fucking matter who you're hitting. At any point in time, you can get got. So it doesn't matter if you hurt him specifically, your day was coming, my bro.

42:22Oti: It was. And I think that's what he should have realized before coming for him in the first place. Yeah. Markus is the one who knocks. Yeah. He he let that shit not slide. He has no right to ask, what do you ever ditchy? Yep. He was standing in his fucking front yard threatening his daughter. Yeah. That's what you did. Yeah.

42:44KT: But it's like like, why? So you can only be killed off by the people that you've directly hurt? Like that? Yeah. That's not the rules of the game. And they're not good people. We can see that they cause havoc in in the community and in society. So

42:59Oti: it was coming one way or another, mate, in one form or another. Be it Markus, be it the coppers. Because It was coming. Power: Raising Kanan and the streets need a body.

43:08KT: Yep. And it just happened to be, you all got bodied by the power of friendship. Yeah.

43:16Oti: Live by the gun, die by the gun, mate. If

43:21KT: you still have them on friends and lovers, feel free to fan your panties. We're getting into a segment we call For Your Reference, Oti.

43:21Oti: It might not be the best, but I think it speaks to coincidences

43:32Oti: quite nicely.

43:34Oti: Jim Carrey is number 23.

43:34KT: Okay. You? Like, how do I feel about Jim Carrey? Because I think

43:39Oti: I he's have We do do not have enough time.

43:45Oti: You did not wanna pull on that thread, did you?

43:45KT: No. No. Will reference and hope that we will cover very shortly Another Round. Oh. If you would like another round of KT Oti mad thirsting

44:02KT: on Twitter and Instagram, we're @ForYourRefPod. Write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

44:08KT: We're also on my dirty panties go to Oti, but my clean panties go to Mads Mikkelsen podcast.

44:08Oti: Should it not be that other way around?

44:08KT: Which do you prefer? You can't have both.

44:08Oti: I'll keep both of them. Thank you very much.

44:08KT: Keep your panties, and we'll see you guys next week. See you. Bye.