Queenie – Generational Mess

Full transcript of Queenie – Generational Mess.

0:00KT: It's another week in the For Your Reference household and we have another full review.

0:06KT: Did you do your assigned reading, Oti?

0:09Oti: Nah, but I watched it.

0:11KT: Well, you'll get read to filth today. Let's get on with the show. Top of the morning, top of the morning, top of the morning, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You got your host KT.

0:25Oti: and

0:27KT: Enter the corgi group chat for the tea on men, memories, and all the mess. Slide out of real truths and slide into your sploosh places with Queenie this week. Welcome, welcome. If you are new to the For Your Reference household. If you enjoyed the Pachinko episode, I'm going to be even more of a book wanker.

0:54Oti: Oh, wow.

0:57KT: I, I, got through my trauma and my childhood and I bought little tabs and it's all over the Queenie book.

1:03KT: worry, friends and lovers. There is a tab for the whites.

1:07Oti: Fan.

1:08KT: I'm excited. Ooh wee. If not, if we can't get Blair Underwood, I guess we're okay. Go and check out our Smothered review.

1:20Oti: Yeah.

1:20KT: Friends and lovers. Um, welcome, welcome. Uh, we are going to get into a lot of detail in regards to the TV show, as well as the book. So, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. We're not going to get into graphic details, but just a very light trigger warning, on, of negligence, in the medical field and trauma.

1:45KT: You want to give us your thoughts and feels to get us started, my love?

1:49Oti: I sure do. a messy yet captivating watch. You'll root for her even as her poor choices frustrate. The story touches on key themes but doesn't delve as deeply as they deserve. Strong performances still elevate it.

2:07KT: will still cheer for me through all my mess, Oti.

2:10Oti: Depends. Are you as messy as Queenie, then. But

2:17KT: Mary J. Blige says? That's what love is?

2:20Oti: I guess.

2:21KT: It feels like joy? It feels like pain?

2:25Oti: I think 90 percent of it was pain, Queenie.

2:28KT: Damn. Time has passed, friends and lovers, but the feelings are still being felt. That's for sure. Queenie is succinct in its exploration of adulting, relationships and race. Layers on these themes didn't always migrate over, but there is charm in what was created for the TV show format.

2:51Oti: Okay, charm, you said. Hmm. Hmm.

2:56KT: Hmm. I

2:57Oti: what that charm is. I see

2:59KT: one you are.

3:00Oti: You almost

3:01KT: We also have an Inbetweeners episode, friends and lovers. You should listen to it for the title alone, the seven bummeders of the world. Is Queenie the eighth bummeder of the world?

3:12Oti: She sure is.

3:16KT: Okay. Alright. Do you want to expand on your general thoughts? I was actually going to put mess in the pull quote.

3:24KT: but I, I, I dunno, just the general sort of a scrabble variations of a pull quote. but I think we have the same sort of sentiments and I guess we can talk about that just a little bit before we actually get into the themes.

3:38KT: I like it's channeling Bridget Jones. I don't think I ever felt frustration with Bridget. I think I kind of just accepted that that's how Bridget was. I don't know if you want to assign race to it, but there was something about Bridget Jones that was really endearing that I didn't feel with Queen.

3:58Oti: Oh, I didn't even see the two

4:01KT: Bridget Jones? Really? Fumbling through adulting.

4:06Oti: Maybe it's a race. Maybe it's, it's more stark when I'm watching a black person go through this.

4:12KT: You're like, pick your crown up,

4:18Oti: I did not see the correlation though.

4:20KT: Well, that's not even independent to me. Like that was a well, that was a well said thing. Shout outs to Maz from Outtake. Um, cause we were also talking about it as well. I think. You know, because they'll obviously be talking about race in more related, sort of themes, but I think it might be personality as well. I think friends and lovers, Oti is just as learned as I am. So we did watch the BBC miniseries.

4:49KT: That is the only recognized Pride and Prejudice in the For Your Reference household. and we also watched Bridget Jones together. Uh, Chiwetel is in the new one. I'm fine with Colin Firth, but I'm also happy. Shoutouts to Colin Firth and Rye Lane. Sorry for spoiling the cameo, but trust me, you're going to satiate and ride on to the sunset with that cameo. but in regards to Bridget Jones, I feel like she was more open to experiences and maybe Queenie was just so shut off from it. Maybe that's the difference.

5:22Oti: for separate content

5:23KT: Because they were both very messy. But I got frustrated with Queenie and I didn't get frustrated with Bridget Jones. I'm also going to bring Insecure in, uh, in a second, but you continue.

5:34Oti: When I look at those two characters, they just feel so different. Maybe in my mind, looking through, or at least when I was watching Queenie, all the little frustration, not even frustration, all the big frustrations that I had with her, you know, from, from, or maybe it's how. The TV show was written because I didn't feel we were given enough room to love Queenie in as much as I tried to root for her.

6:05Oti: Every single point or action she took was against that. And I guess it doesn't help when it's either a conscious decision that every person she was with Was white as well.

6:22KT: Oh, okay. We went there friends and

6:24Oti: I'm just saying, she was messing around. and no, black, like, even when we were looking at. When you're looking at. Frank. She didn't see him like that.

6:37KT: Yeah.

6:37Oti: For the whole Like, you could have dropped, he could have dropped trou and she'd be like, fam you need to buy a belt. You know what I mean?

6:45KT: Put it away. Hey Frank, put it

6:49Oti: don't understand

6:51KT: If she had the equivalent of like, you know, those, goggles where you can look at the heat detection, like the body detection, if

7:00KT: had a horny heat detection, she would skip over Frank and look for all of the white men. I

7:08Oti: didn't get it. It mad. Like Literally everyone. And Maybe that's where I was like. okay, maybe, Maybe they're trying to say something. It's how Queenie maybe looks at herself, and we're going to see growth, We're going to see discovery on what that is. And it just didn't come. Okay.

7:35Oti: heated up and it's only five minutes in.

7:44Oti: Yeah.

7:44KT: So it's interesting that you are speaking so loudly.

7:50Oti: I'm, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just stark when you see it happen without any sort of option being presented.

8:00KT: It's muy caliente, friends and lovers. Strap in, strap on in every race possible.

8:09KT: But we will come to that. Uh, I guess while we're here, shout outs to Candice Carty-Williams. Uh, she was actually involved. So that's the author of the book, Queenie. she was also involved, I believe also like the, the show runner or at least the writer of the show. So she was involved in it and that's also a very interesting point to make because Obviously you get more layers in a book, but I also splooshed all over Pachinko because it found a way to translate it to a TV show format.

8:40KT: Of course, there are little anecdotes and little bit of layers that we don't get in a TV show because of the, the breadth and the duration that you would get in a book compared to a TV show. But Pachinko was a hundred percent.

8:56Oti: Mm.

8:57KT: And those kisses were just for Oti, not for the white mans. But yeah, and I think that's why we both had an element in our quote of things not necessarily being explored as much as it could have. Like, there were themes that they wanted to hit and they hit them. Ooh, but they hit them sharply.

9:17KT: So just smooth it out, give it a little bit of a caress, put some Barry White on, and let's, let's feel good and nasty. But, uh, the first theme that I have, Oti, is culture slash religion. I will be referencing the book. here and there. I try not to do it as much. but do you want to, do you have any sort of ruminating thoughts in general about how culture, whether it's about being Jamaican or religion, being Christian, does that play into it at all for you?

9:50KT: You know, even the opening of this TV show, which is also in the opening of the book, where you have Queenie's auntie, shoutouts to family that are family that don't necessarily agree or support you, but they'll take you to your doctor's appointments.

10:04KT: you know, and there's an element of religion where she's preaching saying, you know, it's ungodly for like a young woman, et cetera, et cetera. you know, there's themes of we don't talk about it. I'm fine. Like the grandma was like, I needed therapy. No one gave me therapy. and a lot of things that I guess that in some ways can get in the way of your exploration and, and of your, sort of journey through life.

10:31Oti: Oh, a hundred percent. I think we get to see from a cultural perspective, Just how different it is. Especially when Queenie is with Tom and the family dinner. I'm like, shit. You know, there's some things I would expect Tom to stand up for, Queenie. And.

10:51KT: We're coming to the whites. Can we just focus on the culture for now?

10:55Oti: I'm focusing. It's coming around. It's a boomerang.

10:58KT: I do have some passages from the book to talk about Tom's white family. But, unless you want to go there now. Do you want to

11:04Oti: no, no, no, no. It's all right. It's all good. And we get to see her navigate this. Especially. Her relationship with the grandmother, you know a generation removed We know that she doesn't necessarily Speak with the mom and that sort of stringed along throughout the whole show Where it's oh what the fuck happened here?

11:25Oti: And then by the time we find out, you know, like it's those relationship building and understanding. Oh, she's super close to the grandmother There's that close knit relationship, but you can't really go there. You can't show your vulnerability as such because they come. The grandmother has scars. She's bearing a lot of

11:42KT: She left a man in Jamaica,

11:44Oti: you know,

11:45KT: like Patsy, she just kept thinking.

11:47Oti: Yeah, so she, she, she had to settle or she felt like she didn't live the life that she wanted to. And there's a lot of resentment that you can see how that then gets reflected back on Queenie. in Queenie just being like Uh, You know, when when Queenie fainted and the grandmother was like, Fam, you're embarrassing me.

12:06Oti: Like, what the fuck is this?

12:07KT: Yeah, like, you made me catch a cab all the way to come to your therapist.

12:11Oti: Yeah, Like, brother man. be better. So, those are the things, like, I love. That's

12:17KT: even humbling. What do you even call that?

12:19Oti: I don't know. You know,

12:21KT: That's sending you back to the nether realm.

12:23Oti: And that just shows you that the inability for the older generation to speak on their issues or to try and heal. And Queenie trying to break the mold as successful as that was, in seeking help. Whether or not she took it, that's a different thing. But at least it was there as an option.

12:47KT: know. Something that I, I guess in TV and film, but also just in life, like something that I find hard to grapple is mental health

13:01Oti: Hmm.

13:02KT: and how it lives and exists within our people, within our communities and also how it's portrayed in media. it's not like I'm going to sit here and it's all about mental health, you know? So, so it's, it's interesting because it's all, it's all tangled in this ball of identity, whether we're talking about culture, whether we're talking about religion, which creates a delicious cocktail of trauma, right?

13:32KT: Because like, however you want to see it, the way that the mum neglected and, and in essence, and in literal meaning, abandoned Queenie, That, that's not something that you can just, uh, mental health, green juice your way out of. And those are the things that you just can't reconcile. I think one of my favorite non pretentious examples of mental health and, and, you know, needing to nurture that, or actually the ignoring and the negligence of is Sopranos. Like, no, I'm serious, because there was no other, there was no other explanation from Tony Soprano having

14:22KT: these non heart attacks, these genuine panic attacks without, like you didn't even need to give it wording. It was clear that he was going through something without it feeling like a, uh huh, right? Are you trauma or were you traumatized?

14:39Oti: Hmm. Deep, eh?

14:43KT: That's a, that's, we go as deep as we can, friends and lovers. We're all up in that ocean, if you will. But, you know, that permeates to her relationships. And, you know, in this show, I don't know what writers call it, but the flagship relationship in this show was with Tom. Right. And, you know, you, you can't have the conversation separately.

15:09KT: But if I'm not talking about race at the moment. Queenie didn't open up to Tom at all. And this is. This to me is like a, like a landmark in. Great writing, because sometimes you have writings that are through misunderstandings. You can have a whole rom com based on a misunderstanding, and the hijinks and everything else that comes through.

15:34KT: Hello, You've Got Mail. Thank you very much. A snarky Tom Hanks. Are you Trini to the bone? Shoutouts to Chet Hanks, while we're here friends and lovers. But I think what really transcends the pen, is when you have very real feeling sentiments, where you have layered characters, where there's no right or wrong answer, it's just fucking life.

16:04KT: And that was the scenario that we saw with Queenie and Tom. I feel like every time I talk, there's going to be a caveat because this is what I felt in the book. I didn't necessarily feel it in the show. Watching the TV show, how did you feel about their relationship? Because it was clear that Queenie was not opening up.

16:24KT: And I don't think it was a malicious thing. I think she was just like, she was just dealing with her own shit by not dealing with it. So she didn't have the capacity to fully love. in a romantic relationship. but it was very clear that she just wasn't opening up to him to the point where it was too late. Yeah.

16:41Oti: Because she goes through a traumatic experience. I think that's how we opened up It's a thing, uh, miscarriage and she can't open up to Tom about And Tom is like filling this gap on this distance widening and the fact that she can't really speak to her and it creates this chasm where it's like Running through the whole show where there's this huge secret where it will just have been I was pregnant. I'm not pregnant anymore. I'm struggling Like, he didn't even need to delve too deep into that

17:24Oti: But she couldn't even say those words to Tom And yet Tom was this or at least portrayed it as, you know, to Queenie, the perfect man for her. And in the love that she, you know, I can't continue without So it felt weird.

17:42KT: but she didn't even open up to him before, because later on in the series, it shows moments where, you know, whether it's like nightmares or etc, Tom would ask her, like, hey, what's going on? And she just wouldn't open up. while we're on the topic of mental health slash trauma, friends and lovers, I do just want to read, from the book. This, and if you haven't friends and lovers, it's page 376. And this is the grandpa talking to Queenie near the end.

18:11KT: Because I don't talk, it doesn't mean I don't feel. It's written in a Jamaican way, but you're not going to catch me. You're not going to catch me feeling irate.

18:25KT: Because I don't talk, it doesn't mean I don't feel. When you came to say those months ago, I felt bad. I felt so bad that you were going to end up like your mother. I could see it in you, in your eyes. I could see the fear and the resignation. I thought you'd given up. And I felt like I did in my chest when she turned up here after Roy hit her so hard, she almost didn't get up. But you didn't let it take you. You're full of fight, Queenie, full of fight.

18:54Oti: Wow. Granddad was was an OG, you know, he was more in touch with his emotions than, you know, and he was more willing to open up,

19:07Oti: uh, than the grandma, Huh? Which I guess is fair enough, but, and this is the thing, right? I am not sure the mom's story. And, like, her anger is justified. She's a kid. She felt abandoned by their mom. Yeah.

19:26Oti: But, the mom did a lot, man. She, like, I felt like she was a deadbeat. I was like, this bloody woman, how do you leave your kid like that? How could you? I was like, Queenie, don't even talk to her. She doesn't even deserve you. Until you learn why the fuck that is. And then I was of two I was, I was like, is this, for a kid, I can understand. And maybe this is me just being naive

20:01Oti: because that shit is hard to heal from, you know, and the scars will always be there regardless of what age you are. to understand what your mom went through and what she felt like she had to leave to protect you just felt. I don't know, I could not be angry at that, in myself and knowing how she fought so hard.

20:28Oti: you know, she was a kid when this all started. So, the abyss was always there. It took a lot of courage for her to walk away. To even find the guts in her to testify. and try to put him behind bars. It's

20:46KT: And the way the whole community know.

20:48Oti: Yeah.

20:49KT: They've been knowing, see him rolling around with a 14 year old girl.

20:54Oti: It's mad. You know, it's like, it's like we're watching Naruto and you know, with the Third Hokage, knowing full well what Naruto is. Naruto, you could just tell, you know, bro, your dad didn't, your parents didn't abandon you because of whatever, like just something.

21:11KT: Friends and lovers. Only Oti can convey black trauma through an anime reference. What do you know about them, Oti?

21:24Oti: Mm-hmm.

21:26KT: if I can bring it back to being culturally tapped in, maybe not of the weeaboo kind, maybe that's why a lot of ancient cultures and a lot of cultures today are very much an oral culture because it's not something that is so easily identifiable and it's not something that's so easily detached from its core. Because, as you say, the layers were there. It wasn't as if she didn't love Queenie, but she also needed to protect herself at the same time.

22:03Oti: Yeah.

22:03KT: And it's not easy to just sit here and point fingers and being like, you're a terrible character, because these characters feel very much based in reality and on lived experiences.

22:16Oti: does. And I guess this is then again where you feel the frustration with Queenie as a character Kane because of how she, while she found out everything about the mom, granted she can still feel a way because it just doesn't insta heal you immediately or you don't feel like oh I can forgive you immediately for that. It's how she treated her friends as well.

22:46Oti: Because. I can understand being self centered. I can understand not caring about anyone other than yourself. I can see how you move. But for you to be leaning a hundred percent on your friends and not ever being there for them, is something I cannot get behind. It's, I, I just cannot.

23:09KT: It's relationships at the end of the day.

23:11Oti: Relationships? shamanationships. It doesn't

23:14KT: Wait, so why are you applying all of this grace to the mum and you're not applying it to Queenie?

23:21Oti: because she's frustrating

23:26KT: I agree with you she didn't she didn't show up for her friends not even in a meaningful way She just didn't show up for her friends

23:33Oti: at all,

23:34KT: especially Darcy

23:35Oti: Like Darcy was holding out a party or some shit. Queenie, Just be there for me for five minutes. Just solve something.

23:42KT: Yep

23:43Oti: She couldn't even do that for two minutes. She couldn't. Like, she's always been there. Her friends have all dropped everything to go and make sure she's okay. Drop everything to make sure she's doing well, you know. Console her because Tom has left or because she's trying to see whether or not this guy is, you know.

24:05Oti: It needs to be reciprocal at some point. And in as much as Whatever trauma Queenie was going through, she was dealing with a lot, she couldn't even tell her friends about the miscarriage, which again tells you a lot about Queenie herself. Grace I can get by to a point, when I can feel this character development in someone, I can accept that there is something, I can there's a give and take. But when I feel like that color character development is stifled throughout the whole Runtime of the show up until the bloody fucking last episode?

24:42Oti: like fam, what are we doing here? Yeah, what are we doing? Like, we can say that Queenie is messy and she's gone through a lot and she's finding herself. Cool. By you being Joffrey throughout the fucking episode doesn't mean that I can automatically not start feeling sad and empathise.

25:01KT: Maybe she was, maybe she was sucking all the good vibes through her pussy, you don't know.

25:06KT: Why don't you call it Belquist? Why did you call it Joffrey?

25:08Oti: I don't know, because that's the level of frustration I felt watching her.

25:13KT: I'm probably going to add fuel to the fire, but I don't know if it was explained in the show, but it was explained in the book, they're called corgis because she's the queen. Yuck, right? Well, it's going to continue to frustrate you, but let's move on to the next theme. I have white slash racism and friends and lovers. If you have the book, I am turning to page 43. This isn't in the book. Actually. No, let me preface this for a second.

25:44KT: We've talked about this or at least I've talked at you about this friends and lovers where I don't care For narratives where they try to make it clear to us that we're not supposed to hate the white people That these are just the characters and then we're supposed to be super cool with them guy. I don't think they It's not even about whether the show went hard.

26:08KT: I just don't think they gave a very realistic Portrayal of how this could have been and my source is the book Because there are some very real experiences. You know, friends and lovers, we're in so called Australia, I can only imagine how double bricked, double caked up in racism the UK is. But I have, a story I'm going to read here. This is flashing back to a family night where they're playing Cluedo. Are you ready?

26:34Oti: Yeah

26:36KT: Tom, don't look at Adam, look at me. Queenie, leave it. Leave it, she asked. Did you hear what your uncle said? He was joking Queenie, don't get worked up, and the character is actually black, so And then this is what Queenie says, Am I in some alternate universe?

26:55KT: Your uncle just said, Was it the N word in the pantry? And this is the E R O T. This is in the book. And you've got nothing to say. I'll go if you're going to pretend I'm not here. And this kind of correlates to the TV show where they're at the bus stop. And he's like, what the fuck, man. After the grandma was like, milky half caste babies.

27:19KT: Which is also in the book as well. But I wanted to read it. Because, un fucking fortunately, this isn't like a dramatic Bear, we love The Bear, but it's not that Bear episode where everything is fucking stressful for the sake of being stressful, right? This doesn't, unf un fucking fortunately, this isn't necessarily something that's Too out of imagination and lived experience, but I want to talk to you and I wanted to open up the floor talking about the whites, and racism and Queenie in particular, the show.

27:51Oti: We get introduced to this dynamic of hating fucking Tom's guts because he doesn't stand up to, he doesn't stand up for

28:02KT: Protect black women.

28:04Oti: he says nothing. He's just there nodding along and just, you know, trying to keep the peace. Because his family is his family and they'll always just be like that so just take it under the chin or take it to the chin, you know, but so for me Tom was never the solution and I always hated his guts for that. So every time Queenie was crying for Tom I was like fam, what the fuck, this guy is never there for you, He's all his family super racist towards you. And he's fine with that because

28:42Oti: he's just there okay to maintain the peace.

28:46Oti: so Tom was never someone I Took to because I couldn't they made it very clear? I couldn't it's like how they introduced The Deep in The Boys You just can't love him because of the shit he's done You know, they're trying to make it With the scene and all, we only saw, read the comic and realized oh, this shit is just

29:12Oti: it felt that way, to me, towards Tom, and I was like, every time I saw him, I was just hating his guts And this is then where I felt like trying to introduce certain aspects of self love, self care, Towards What it should look like and Queenie trying to drive that home Because to me I felt that that's a major component of not only standing up for yourself But seeing your self worth and not seeking your value in others in this case Particularly racial.

29:45Oti: feeling as if you're less than so that you can get with you can elevate your self esteem with whatever And I felt like the carrying out this theme in the underbelly of the show but just tickling its balls and not fully grasping it.

30:01Oti: and not going fully there to say that this is what's happening. Even though, in my mind, I could fucking see it.

30:09Oti: We get to the end of the show, and Queenie is, oh, realizing, Oh, I actually like Frank, or whatever. But I didn't buy it. I didn't buy it But that time. I was like, cause If it wasn't for the granddad to say, Fam, what the fuck are you doing?

30:30Oti: Like, that's the ex machina needed for this show, for Queenie to see. I just couldn't. I couldn't understand the decisions being made throughout the show. The choices Queenie made, I felt was serving a bigger purpose, which never came. Even though I felt a little Tickling in the underbelly of Oh, we actually trying to say something, but we're not actually going there.

30:54Oti: So to me, I'm like, why the fuck? Why the fuck only have those white characters with Queenie's love interest? Why the fuck have Frank as the final person Queenie ends up with? While you're not covering anything in between. Well, I felt that was a progressive thing to go through. So I'm, to me, I'm like, fam, you're only missing the plot, or you're missing the opportunity to speak on something. You're just being fucking naive at this point. like

31:19Oti: why the fuck would you do that? Maybe the book covers it in a different way, but to me it just felt reckless in the show to do that And i'm like, what are we what are we doing here? What are we doing here? You're not going to talk about it while you're saying it while you're showing it, while you don't want to manifested properly to show that there's an actual Thing that Queenie has to understand and has to grow into And has to love herself and has to, you know, take that self care and take, to that. I don't fucking, it's just frustrating.

31:51KT: But you can't self care yourself out of your lover not standing up for their race. Like, your lover not defending you against

31:58Oti: It's about, it's about valuing yourself. It's about valuing yourself and not seeing yourself anything less than what you deserve It's about looking and understanding that your partner needs to uphold the same fucking standards as you do and neither of those were shown And i'm sitting here thinking what the fuck why am I looking at Tom coming with flowers at the end? What the Fuck I'm not I'm not buying into this. This is not a fucking

32:23Oti: Bridget Jones shit, and that's why I couldn't even correlate the two because of Bridget Jones I can see why Hugh Grant and, what's the other fucking guy's name?

32:33KT: Vrood, Colin Firth. Colin

32:34Oti: Firth coming to us. I'm like, oh, there's the duality between the two. Who are they going to go? Because they're very different people. Here, it's night and fucking day. There's no, there's no in between.

32:46KT: I don't know if you're going to be vindicated or more pissed off, but the cousin, like, Kyazike's cousin isn't really anything in the book.

32:55Oti: love because

32:56KT: it was because black love, and because TV show.

33:00Oti: and this is what I'm talking about. This is just carelessness on screen.

33:05KT: You're the sensitivity reader it seems.

33:07Oti: I'm just, I'm just looking for something that is showing our black queens. In a high stead looking for love finding love wherever it might be while still being treated as the queens They are while we're sitting here watching Queenie go from fucking white man to fucking white man with self esteem plummeting after each fucking Interaction Only to get to a point where you end up with fucking Frank, but it's not bought in you still haven't done the fucking work. So what are we doing here?

33:39KT: You're gonna you're gonna slide out for

33:41Oti: Fam. I was like miss me with this show and to the point. I was like i was so frustrated with this And then when you started telling me what you're reading with the book and how it's like painting this different I'm like, Oh, he doesn't feel that way. I'm like fuck then. what, What what did you translate to screen? Who, Why did you fucking do it this way?

34:00KT: Yeah, I will say, well, before I say what I will say, friends and lovers, I thought it was vindication for Oti, it's vindication for me, because the real friends and lovers are at this part of the recording, because it's always me talking about the whites, but there you go. Welcome to the final level boss of Oti, defending and protecting black queens. Um,

34:26KT: Like, I think statistically, you could infer that the people she was fucking around with were white. But maybe it was because I was reading the book. It wasn't as confronting, visually, seeing it in the TV show. Because, yeah, it definitely wasn't working in the favour of, you know, all love is every love.

34:46KT: Because it just felt like she, she felt less of herself. She didn't value herself. and she was just going for the easy options. You know, and there was definitely moments of fetishization in the book. I don't think they really went to it in the level of the TV show here. but yeah, I think there are some things that needed to be reckoned with that weren't necessarily explored in the show.

35:09KT: And it is frustrating because I have watched interviews with Carty, as well as Dionne and Bella. And because that's the conflict we come to, Oti, because again open kimono if you're nasty friends and lovers we get very real on this podcast. I'm just going to break the metaphor for for a second. This is the conflict that we have loving watching and reviewing black and brown TV and film. Because even when you hear the interviews, you hear how much love gets poured into it, but then we're also the audience and we're also watching it.

35:47Oti: And maybe I would have thought to myself, maybe I'm reaching, maybe I'm misunderstanding all this, maybe race doesn't even play a factor. But Queenie gets on with the best friend's man, who treats her like fucking darts.

36:01KT: Yeah.

36:03Oti: You know, Bottom of the barrel shit. And I'm thinking here, sitting, wondering, Is this fucking intentional? It Does race. It, You can't, I can't sit here and say race doesn't play a part in that, at all,

36:16Oti: Because it's, I can just fucking see it.

36:20KT: Like, uh, shoutouts, love and splooshes to Natasha Rothwell, How to Die Alone, there was a particular storyline of that.

36:26Oti: And they talked, they talked about it. You know, and it's not the show is not even finished. it's fucking six episodes in or some shit and they still covered it in a way that you could understand a we're not living in a world where we say I don't see color Because I cannot watch this show and say I don't see color because it's fucking very obvious

36:50KT: There's a particular color that keeps showing

36:52Oti: Fam, outside of your fucking childhood friend, all your friends are fucking white. Every, Everyone you mingle with or have sexual encounters with is

37:01KT: Derogatory.

37:02Oti: And then, it cannot just be, don't see color. And then the guy who mistreats you. And you still keep on going to him. like, And this is why I'm talking about self worth.

37:17KT: He was Welsh in the book.

37:19Oti: I'm like, you cannot bring these things on the surface, or maybe, because I thought I was making it up until up that point, and I was giving grace, but up until then I was like, surely, surely there's only one way this goes. And for them not to even get Queenie to a point where she realizes, or she sees, or she grows into a position where A, I know there's a lot of issues she has to deal with.

37:52Oti: And the mom felt like there was the blanket, was the blanket issue lingering throughout the whole show. That's what's causing her to faint. That's what's causing her to, to, to have this fucking nightmares. I don't understand. fam, there was a lot of other shit going on.

38:14KT: Oh yeah. And, you know, like we talk about the UK, like even in this country of so called Australia, for those that aren't aware. Also go and check out, uh, Jordan and Cameron at the White People Won't Save You podcast. I went and did an Australian film called Black and White there. It's got your Tywin

38:35Oti: Tywin Lannister,

38:36KT: in that. But, you know, we recently had a vote, a vote for the Indigenous voice into Parliament. Over 60 percent said no. So fuck you motherfuckers by default. You're all fucking racist. You didn't even need to prove me wrong. I don't even want to talk it. I don't want to even breathe the same air as you fuck off. I guess to bring some levity because you don't see color because it's just one color. That's not a color. Okay,

39:05KT: So this is Darcy and Queenie and they're talking about that Welsh fella. And the way that he talks about having a type or not having a type, or it just might be on the dating app. You're gonna love this For example, I hope this comes across well, but I've got white mates who are honest and say they don't find non white women attractive. They aren't racist. I wouldn't be friends with them if they were. It's just a preference for them, I guess. I have a black mate who says that same thing about white women.

39:35KT: I got a mate who only likes big women. I think, I think we get it. Who is entertaining this? Love yourself, friends and lovers. Who would deal with this shit?

39:47Oti: See, This was a journey of self Above all else, to me. was Queenie's journey of self discovery and self Albeit the mommy issues and everything else was just fucking background noise. Because if you deal with the abandonment, the still, the fundamental cracks of how you see yourself and I just, I just, Oh my word. I don't think a show has ever frustrated me as much as Queenie.

40:30KT: But it's cause it's a black show, right?

40:31Oti: Yeah. I didn't fucking care. if Bridget Jones, if they, if they base this off. The modern day, make it the modern day Bridget, Bridget Jones. Cool, but you make Queenie Black, it takes a whole different meaning.

40:49KT: As it should. But that should be in a positive light.

40:52Oti: Exactly. like, Just, yeah.

40:54KT: It's okay to have mess though. Yeah, have mess. It's okay to have mess. I think it's more about the trajectory of the character development, right?

41:01Oti: Yeah, yeah. And I always say nothing is fucking linear. few things are, so I do not expect Queenie to grow from strength to strength. But, make her grow, man.

41:14KT: But I was just like, go off, I guess, like, it even got to the point where you also saw it in the TV show too, but it was also in the book where the friends are like, okay, who cares? Like, we don't care who you're rolling around with. Like who the, like, you know what I mean? Like grow up. And I'm pretty sure in every sense of the word, they told her to grow up at some point. Like, it's not cute anymore.

41:48KT: Well, let's, let's move a little bit away from romantic entanglements, August O. T. Alsina. Let's talk about journalism. There was an earnestness and again, again, I have to say it was conveyed better in the book in the show. She just, I need to preface this friends and lovers, we come from a frame of reference. So please understand me in the best way, not in a gross way. But she was very not good at her job.

42:22KT: Like, she didn't, she didn't even try. That was in her messy era, which I guess we all have. So go off, sis. But like, she didn't even do her assigned, like, her assigned work, her assigned tasks.

42:35Oti: she still wanted to do

42:37KT: like, oh, my people are dying in the streets and it's like, okay.

42:42Oti: Cool. That's not your job though. Do your job and then say then, Oh, my people are dying in the streets but then I'm also done my tasks for the week or some shit.

42:53KT: the how did you feel, I guess you can talk, maybe just focus on her wanting to make a change. Because maybe we're getting Because TV show about her lining up with black media to do her journalism there.

43:08Oti: Oh, I think I was going to say something very harsh, so I'll just run it back. It was just Wide of mouth at that point. It didn't feel, I didn't see her care.

43:20KT: just

43:21Oti: talk to it.

43:23Oti: But I didn't see her care.

43:24KT: I'm just I

43:29Oti: did not see her care. The way she moved didn't show she cared. The way she interacted with people didn't show she cared. But apparently that was a whole thing. That was a whole space in her work.

43:42KT: If that's her whole thing and she was barely, she barely had conviction, that says a lot.

43:46Oti: Right. I was like, okay, Queenie wants to move this way,

43:52KT: Yeah.

43:54Oti: She, she.

43:55KT: Like, are you just using it as like a Twitter talking point type thing?

43:59Oti: A difference, a differentiation for you at your work And issues that you feel that you can speak on to progress rather than issues you want to care about and you want to hold dear because, you know, I'm not looking to just do this because I want to write an article.

44:18KT: She went to a protest. If it wasn't in the TV show, she, it was in the book

44:22KT: where she like learned a bit more about, you know, collective liberation and what it means to stand up for

44:31KT: I know nothing about

44:32Oti: didn't see that. I know nothing that. So, anyway, uh, maybe she cares, maybe she doesn't. It doesn't fucking matter in the grand scheme of things with the way this was reported. was written on screen. So I've not read the book, so a lot of that that you're talking about is missed on me. I'm just only focusing on what I watched. And what I watched showed me that, hey, you're just saying that because talking point other than seeing it in your character.

45:06KT: Okay. I do want to get some, because we've done a few now, I do want to get black British TV show rankings. But before we come to that, something that we didn't cover, it's up to you whether we have a full discussion on it. but I just wanted to touch on not being believed and not getting the proper care in the medical field.

45:26KT: saw that a lot with Queenie in this show. I

45:31KT: also want to draw a call back to Supacell. Because, you know, as much as it was nice to like enjoy the show, it's, it's always hard for me because if you take into account that sci fi was created as a way to, for the Toms, as Oti would say, of the world, to create a way for them to oppress themselves through literary works, then, that then clouds the, uh, allegories when you cast black and brown people in Right. So what I was saying when we're watching Supacell, it was hard for me to separate that because I mentioned Tuskegee, for example, Henrietta Lacks, for example. But even in this example of Queenie, she's a black British woman not being taken seriously in the medical field. Right. So when you have like people being experimented on in Supacell, you know what I mean?

46:25KT: So it's hard to make that delineation.

46:28Oti: Yeah, I I see that. They don't take her seriously. Her pains are sort of brushed aside. And maybe her miscarriage could have been avoided. You know, it's those questions that you ask. And we see zero fucks given by the doctors. And these are the issues that are important to talk about important to highlight. Because this is what everyday people go through. So. it was good. though. They highlighted it

47:01KT: Arrested Development

47:07Oti: money's always in the banana stand but yeah, like it was This shit happens and it's sad as fuck So look after yourself and fight for your rights man. Like if you feel there's something wrong go there Don't back down and just Ask for tests and tests and tests and this shit is real man.

47:32KT: Absolutely. before we go to the rankings and close off friends and lovers, I do just want to mention something. Uh, you know, for those of us that are trying very hard to not just fight for the liberation, but also to find fucking joy In this burning dumpster fire of a world. there is a lot that we need to reckon with, and there is a lot that people will not reckon with, even if it is, if it doesn't take anything away from them.

48:03KT: But what I will say is, you know, when it comes to just like general sort of understandings, race is important. I think to, to live in a westernized colonized world to pretend that race doesn't exist is to ignore the voices of your supposed friends and lovers, you know, that are really going through it.

48:26KT: And that carries to romantic relationships as well. Again, we said we're the king of the interracials, but it shouldn't be loving yourself and who you are is a side of it. Right? Right. You should be able to be like, if you were in your own household, which is in your own heart and your own relationship, you shouldn't have to, as Oti said, make yourself small, ignore all of the yucky things just so you can stay in that relationship because you don't even get to fully be yourself.

48:56KT: And you know, that's where we need to get to as well. But I would also add friends and lovers. It's also class as well, because his family were quite well off. And there's a disparity in class and I personally, friends and lovers, I'm like, uh, uh, Agent Rossi and Criminal Minds. I'm going to write my own book reading tours.

49:18KT: it's also like a struggle compatibility. Like, I think sometimes when people haven't been through shit in their lives, it's hard for them to understand. Like, I don't think. The TV show was its own format, which we talked about the book. It just seemed like they just weren't compatible, right? There were some things like, yes, you can try and explain race. Yes, you can try and explain, you know, X, Y, and Z. But there were some things that Queenie has been through that Tom will never be able to understand.

49:48Oti: Yeah,

49:51KT: And that's what all I'm saying, friends and lovers, bust it wide open and feel all the love. Well, let's go to, rankings. So, off top, we've done, uh, Supacell. We've done Top Boy. We've done Queenie. We've also done Smothered as well, if you want to put

50:14Oti: I would do Top Boy, Supacell, Smothered, I think you said Queenie. Queenie, I've got jokes.

50:44KT: that a surprise to you?

50:46KT: You know what's a surprise to me? Kyazike in the book is Ugandan and it had the word Mzungu in there and that's how mad you were that you didn't even mention the East African connection. Hoo, hoo, hoo. Wow. I guess especially extra splooshes friends and lovers to those that are new. Thank you. In the For Your Reference household. But yeah, this, this isn't new around her. And I hopefully you all had a lovely time. We're going to finish off in a segment. We call For Your Reference.

51:26Oti: I would be remiss if I didn't, uh, reference How to Die Alone by Natasha Rothwell. It's currently ongoing. It shows sort of a similar theme, uh,

51:40Oti: Maybe not one to one relation with what Queenie is going through but just Self love and taking care of yourself growing and understanding that you have value and it It shows us it shows it in one of the best sort of ways where you'd get frustrated But there's still room for growth and there is growth and there's hard discussions being dealt with so they're not running away from anything and it's just one of the better shows we're watching right now.

52:12KT: Nice. I'm actually working on a technology to forget episode five.

52:17Oti: I loved episode five,

52:19KT: Friends and lovers. If you want to talk to me about How to Die Alone, we need to extract my memory of episode five. while we're here, shout out Lena Waithe for the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None. That was very good.

52:33Oti: oof.

52:33KT: I'll replace my memories with that of the Thanksgiving episode of How to Die Alone. While we're on the topic, obviously, Insecure.

52:42Oti: Oh,

52:43KT: Do you feel like you love Issa a bit more than you love Queenie?

52:48Oti: Oh, a hundred percent.

52:49KT: That's all I needed. If you would love to love on black women, and friends, and lovers. On Twitter, Instagram, still Bluesky. I'm getting too scared of TikTok. We're @ForYourRefPod, but

53:05Oti: phone, write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com.

53:09KT: we're also on Queenie forever podcast. If you'd like to leave a rating and review and we'll see you guys next week.

53:18Oti: Love yourselves.

53:19KT: Wow.