Queen & Slim – Make me earl your tears

Full transcript of Queen & Slim – Make me earl your tears.

0:00KT: Good day. It's another week in the For Your Reference household. We are starting off with your phrase or mine. And really, as always, I am the wise sage.

0:11Oti: Okay.

0:13KT: And given the subject matter that we're covering today, this quote is about tragedy. Mhmm. Accredited to Horace Walpole, it says, the world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

0:32Oti: I think it means that anyone that really tries to look at the world and how things run, it's quite farcical and yeah, that's pretty much it.

0:43KT: Well, just like cinema friends and lovers, you can decide whether that was good or not. Let's get on with the show. Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You got your host, KT.

0:43Oti: And Oti.

0:43KT: And get ready to swipe right on your Tinder. I wouldn't know, but I think that's what you do because we are going on a road trip. This week, we are covering the film Queen and Slim.

1:32Oti: Woo hoo.

1:33KT: Woo hoo hoo. Again, apparently, we don't know how to use dating apps.

1:33Oti: No, we don't.

1:33KT: We've been together since the dinosaurs have been around. Welcome, welcome, welcome. If this is the first time that you're listening to For Your Reference, we take Candlet to your kind around her And if you've tuned into a few or all of our episodes, you are fucking nasty and we love you guys. If

2:00KT: you have known, if you followed us along on the Twitter or if you're just a nerd about release dates, Queen and Slim came out last year, I think in November for America and we've been waiting until March 2020 Yeah. To watch this film. So there's been a lot of anticipation about this. As much as possible, we try not to dive into, I guess, what the thoughts and feelings are about the film, but it was very hard not to do that, especially because we have

2:33KT: friends and lovers, in many cases and lovers that we rely upon Kolby, yo yo yo yo shout out to Kolby because there were thoughts and feelings about the film and we were so frustrated because we didn't understand how and why you know there were enjoyment or non enjoyment of the film. Mhmm. And we just had to wait. Like, we couldn't we couldn't figure it out for ourselves, unfortunately Yeah. Until then. But let's get into the stats so we can get into the meaty, juicy, Martin Lawrence ass chic of it all.

3:07KT: I love Bad Boys just like every other sodium lover. Like I mentioned, this came out in 2019, but in Australia, it came out in March 2020. We have the director, Melina Matsoukas. I guess the reference crossover that we have is Insecure. She's directed quite a lot of episodes for Insecure.

3:27Oti: Is she the Formation lady?

3:29KT: She is. She's the visionary Formation lady. We also have Lena Waithe at the helm. There's if you've watched any interview of Lena Waithe, she does talk about James Frey and how he initially pitched the story to her. So he gets a credit, but not necessarily he didn't really have a hand in it. It was made very clear that Lena and Melina also they they pretty much had complete control Mhmm. Over this film,

3:57KT: which is a great thing and it's a very confident thing to say, like, we weren't restricted by the studios, we did what we wanted to do. Okay. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. In regards to the cast, guess we'll just focus on on the main ones. Daniel Kaluuya, Hallelujah Kaluuya is is no stranger to the For Your Reference podcast.

4:16Oti: No. He's not. He's he's an up and comer. He's an up and comer according to KT.

4:23KT: I think I think if we were to do like a tally of actors that have appeared and stuff that we covered, Daniel Kaluuya will be quite up there. So, you know, shout outs with shout out to Ju. And then we also have at least in in my watching experience, a debut of Jodie Turner-Smith. Yeah, I don't think I've seen her in anything

4:23Oti: She's a Briton as well by the way.

4:23KT: Oh. Yeah. So you have a whole slew of actors and I do just wanna give a little shout out to Flea from

4:54KT: Red Hot Chili Peppers he was also also got a shout out in our Big Lebowski episode as well so there's a cute little shout out but it had quite an expansive cast and if you're doing a For Your Reference drinking game take a shot because I say expansive cast all the time. But there we go. There's the cast. There was a lot. Usually when we go and watch a film at the cinema, we come straight home and record it.

5:21KT: We're recording this a couple of days after. I really felt like we needed to just have some time to digest these morsels. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's for the better.

5:33Oti: Definitely. Otherwise, it'll just all be too emotional.

5:37KT: Oh, no. Have you watched the film? That's literally all it is. But let's let's get into first impressions. Again, if this is the first time you've listened to our episodes, we talk about our frame of reference and we also talk about how we might have come across, you know, actors or director or even writers works before. So Oti, you know, we've got Melina Matsoukas, we talk about Insecure. We all have we also have an episode of Master of None who Lena Waithe has written on and called on, she stars in.

6:13KT: The episode that she wrote for Thanksgiving won an Emmy And, you know, we love Daniel Kaluuya and that sort of thing. So how did you feel leading up to this film? Because we had quite a lot of months we had to wait. And I guess in a broad sort of nutshell, how did you feel watching it and after watching it?

6:13Oti: Alright. So I think there was a completely sort of difference between us because you were really eager to watch this.

6:13KT: Oh, yes.

6:13Oti: I was more on the

6:40Oti: yeah. We'll see it when we see it. I wasn't that interested per se Mhmm. Just because I didn't expect too much from it.

6:50KT: Okay. So so let's let's explore that. Why?

6:53Oti: Based on what the trailer was and how they explained the movie would be about, I was like, yeah. Cool. You know, we've had several movies like this. Maybe it's just the difference in hue in terms of casting, but I don't know. It just didn't really gravitate towards me that much. Mhmm. And that's what I went to into this film thinking that, okay, whatever it is that they'll present Yep. I have no sort of expectation from it. I'm just here to enjoy myself and I couldn't even get that to be honest. Okay.

7:37KT: Yeah. Well, I guess I guess from the other point of view, you know, sometimes you come across films or TV shows where you don't really know who the director is, you don't know who the actors are. This was completely the opposite. I knew who the director was. I knew who the writer or the screenplay was from, and I knew who one of the leads were.

7:37Oti: Like, he was heavily promoted that way, I reckon.

7:37KT: No. But that that's why I wanted to watch it. You know what I mean? Like you said, but I was really

8:09KT: I was really expecting an insular Bonnie and Clyde type adventure Mhmm. And all of the hijinks that, you know, come along with that and what I mean by insular is we are seeing the perspective of the world but only in what's necessary that needs to be told between these two characters but there was a lot of there was a lot of contextual background that I felt like wasn't necessary in this particular film and I know we're definitely going to talk about it as we go throughout the episode

8:48KT: There's a frame of reference that I will never have because I'm not African American and I also don't know what it means to be black.

8:48Oti: Oh, hold a How dare you?

8:48KT: Like, in the Western world, what it means to be a black person. Right? I know what it means to be a person of color but I will never try and translate that to mean the same thing. So there are a lot of themes in this film that I will never understand, Right? I felt like a lot of the time when African American sort of

9:23KT: the disparity between, you know, African Americans and, you know, white Americans, I felt like the disparity between that was very jarring. I feel like the way that this film was written, there wasn't much nuance to it. I did listen to a podcast episode interview

9:44KT: with Lena Waithe, I can link it on our Twitter if you guys are interested. And I've watched a lot of interviews because it's like I I needed something to satiate me until this film came out. And Lena Waithe was talking about how there are no good guys and bad guys. Like, it's not like you're rooting for Queen and Slim because they're great people. You know what I mean? And she she also brought her back to one of the opening scenes with the white cop.

10:11KT: And she said that he's not supposed to be evil, he's just the man doing his job. And the way that that was supposed to be further exemplified was showing the photo of his family when he goes back to the car. But that spoiler spoiler spoilers by the way because I'm I'm just I'm just getting deep into it. Later on in the film, we find out that he had actually arrest he didn't arrest. Did he arrest or shoot or did he

10:11Oti: He'd had a history of killing.

10:40Oti: I say history loosely, but he had a history of killing someone else. Or at least once before. Yeah. We're not sure how many. So it's not necessarily as if you're painting this guy. It's one thing to say that you're not trying to tell us that there's there's no bad and evil in this when clearly you are trying to sway this to lean into some sort of direction Mhmm.

11:02Oti: Regardless of how gently you think you're doing it, which I don't even think it was that gentle. Yeah. It was quite blatant because I think that was what pushed people to the edge in terms of trying to justify and to support what Queen and Slim did. Okay. And it's one of those things where you're like, okay. So we know this is an ongoing sort of theme and an ongoing sort of problem in America in general where there's this police brutality and whatnot. And we have no experience of that because we don't live there,

11:34Oti: but it's what we can only relate to in terms of what we see in the news, what's on social media and all. So when you get to see how the fast sort of scene in the car goes out Mhmm. And he gets shot, you know, fair enough up until that point because it it was just all too chaotic. And Yeah. You wouldn't even blame Slim for that per se just because he was all too emotional and just charged.

12:07KT: Well, it was a fight or flight situation.

12:07Oti: Definitely.

12:07KT: Exactly. And and and the fact that Queen was laying down short on the leg. We need to talk about that. But, yeah, let's let's focus on this particular scene. And

12:21Oti: and it was just one of those things that I felt, okay. So you've taken down us down this path. And then in the later in the later part of the movie, you tell us that this guy has had history of killing or at least killed another black person.

12:39KT: Yeah. It's it's just interesting. If you take a step back from the film, it's interesting that Lena Waithe would say that there's no good guys and bad guys, but then she would later purposefully write in the script because again, no one stopped her. Everything there is her. Right?

12:54Oti: She would later give an example of why he's possibly not a great person. Exactly. So of course of course, there there are nuances to this. So it'll just be ignorant to say that it's not or it doesn't exist because at the end of the day, we well, she said that she wants people art is something to be perceived in different sort of in a in a different sort of spectrum or at least to be perceived in a spectrum Mhmm. Where there's no good and evil. There's just in between.

13:27KT: Yeah. But I think I think what we're going to explore, and especially when we get to our For Your Reference section at the end of the episode is there is a way to tackle these themes and there is a way to do that effectively. I just wanna mention that podcast interview that I listened to. I can't remember what the podcast was but I will link it on our Twitter. But it was a it was a white man that was interviewing her and he said that there were moments in the film where he felt uncomfortable

14:00KT: and he was just asking is that something that was supposed to be purposeful? Like, was that part of the intention to, you know, wake people up and, you know, just make aware to what the realities are? Yeah. Right? And then Lena Waithe, don't know if she was doing it in jest, but she's like, yeah. I want you to feel bad. And I I had qualm with that. I I had qualm with that. There's definitely I'm I'm not denying that there's a disparity between African Americans and just the broader sort of America.

14:33KT: But that is how I felt watching this film. I took my time and my money to come and watch this film and I felt like every scene was loaded for me to feel a certain way. There was no reprieve even in the light sort of scenes where we come across and we'll talk about it later with that kid. Everything was loaded in this film. You had Queen as a character

14:59KT: and she she really wore all of the burdens of the world. And she's definitely a tough nut to crack, and I can't wait to talk about her character. And there's obviously reasons why she's guarded the way she is, which is completely understandable, but that's how this film felt to me. Mhmm. I wasn't even allowed to love this film. I was you know, I feel like this film was like Lena said as well, this film was treated and came out of Universal which had Straight Outta Compton,

15:32KT: right? And a couple of other films where they marketed it for everyone. It wasn't specifically for one demographic, right? And Queen and Slim was treated the same way. If that is the case, there might be, it might hit harder for African Americans but it was intended and cinema as a whole is intended to be consumed by everyone. Yep. Right? However,

15:57KT: if you do not have a frame of reference in order to engage with these characters and what they're going through, I do believe it is the responsibility of the storyteller to at least fill the gaps a bit. Just to let us start to see where we need to be, how we need to be primed in order to enjoy this film. The best sort of example I can give is John Wick. Yeah. Right? Know, because there's a lot of talk about unnecessary exposition.

16:29KT: In regards to John Wick, I don't know if I don't think it's a spoiler but you know, the catalyst of John Wick turning full John Wick was the fact that his wife died. Right? But we didn't need to see him and his wife being in love because on some sort of level, all of us have experienced love.

16:49Oti: Right?

16:50KT: So we didn't need to see that exposition. However, with this film, it literally just dives into Queen and Slim. We don't even know who they are as characters. We don't really know what motivates them. You know, the the more sort of complex themes especially to do with Queen, I don't need to know that from the start of the film and that's fine that it unravels the way that it does. But going back to specific sort of African American themes, I felt like it would have been

17:24KT: more less of a barrier of entry for me if that was weaved into the story somehow. Maybe so. Maybe so. Or am I just supposed to be, like, raging against all of the cops and all of the white men? Because that's what it felt like.

17:41Oti: Yeah. I I see your point. And you know what? I felt like they backtracked or at least they tried as hard as possible not to paint that sort of message because in a way, I was watching it. I felt like in a in a sort of progressive way, this would turn out to be like, yeah. This is an issue that's going on in our community. This is what we need to do. We need to stand together and all that. Yeah. And then

18:09Oti: when you'd think they'd be going towards a sudden direction, they just take a hard right or something. Okay. And I would give this example, like, have we have the kid. We have the kid that Queen and Slim made. Uh-huh. The kid for the mechanic. Right? Yeah. And he's he's he's he's enthralled. Mhmm. He's captivated Oh, yeah. By what Queen and Slim stand for.

18:32KT: He's definitely a product of now. Yes. Of social media and sensationalism and hashtags and, you know, not necessarily social justice warriors, but, you know, know, showing showing your support for a cause through those sort of means. Right? Yeah.

18:56Oti: My point being is, we see him go to a rally, and he he arms himself up. Yeah. He arms himself up knowing that he's going to do something ridiculous. And it is ridiculous and crazy. Yeah. Which I really don't even see the point of why that had to be in this in the first place.

19:14KT: It wanted you to feel, mate. It wanted to bash you over the head and make you fucking feel. There's there's there's a difference. There's a difference between making me feel and just having,

19:25Oti: like, a completely sort of random it seemed random. To me, it just

19:30KT: Oh, yeah. Like, it it it pulled me out of the, like, the emotion of the film, and it felt like to me, I was looking at them in the writers room saying, okay. How can we upset people the most?

19:45Oti: Yes. But This scene doesn't have enough. But not to upset people too much or to to at least ruffle the feathers too much because the cop that he kills, I'm I'm a 110% positive. They had to make sure It was a white white cop.

20:05KT: Because they wanted to be responsible with their message.

20:10Oti: It would just tarnish, I think, the sort of message that they were trying to pass.

20:14KT: And because this isn't based off of a true story, surely there are elements of the real world that they're bringing into here. But, you know, there's there's a lot of dialogue about, you know, you know, the the only sort of black films that get recognition are the ones about slave movies and that sort of thing. Right? So I wonder if we're going into a new genre of black films where it's a fantasy sort of thing because really like

20:42KT: it's playing out in a world where if you could do what you wanted, that's what you would do. Right? It's because even when we see at the start, the differences between Queen and Slim, right? When the police officer was approaching, Queen was very, well, not very, she was allowed to have an attitude but unfortunately in the climate, you're not allowed to have an attitude. You need to be like, yes, please, thank you. And you could definitely see the difference between the two.

21:12Oti: I'm not reckon for a lawyer, she should know that or even at least at the most basic of levels of a black person.

21:19KT: I think there's just a lot she needs to reconcile but it's just unfair that she's not allowed to have an off day because that could turn into something else. And you know, again, there are like many ways to do it. And, you know, now that I think of it, because we've covered Get Out, which I think very so

21:40KT: perfectly. And I did nominate Get Out a couple of times for the Splooshies Awards. So how dare you, Oti? How dare you? You just keep putting Black didn't get in there. Well, there you go. We can fight because I feel like Get Out did much much better in regards to themes than Black Panther. But anyway,

22:00Oti: I'm a fight you. How they'll fight me?

22:02KT: Well, you know, now that I think of it, a film that I felt really did well in regards to covering these sort of themes as well as bring people along that aren't African American to Set It Off.

22:16Oti: Hot dog.

22:17KT: Do we just close this episode and tell everyone to use their time to go and watch Set It Off?

22:17Oti: Yep. I think I think Set It Off

22:24Oti: did this brilliantly, and they did this in 1996, I wanna say, but it was way early.

22:30KT: Oh, yes. And that's also another perfect example because let's let's go into the characters now. I wanna talk about Queen and Slim as a collective and then we can start to break them down. Queen and Slim, I felt like both of them reminded me in regards to emotional resonance, there wasn't any. And it reminded me so much of Lupita and her character in Us. Go and listen to our Us episode. Jordan Peele, we fucking love you.

23:03KT: Know, if you come on our podcast, we promise we'll cover Keanu.

23:08Oti: Not even.

23:11KT: But what I mean in regards to that and if you've listened to our last episode is yes, performance wise, Daniel Kaluuya and Jodie Turner-Smith gave us the emotional range maybe maybe not Queen's character but that's a story, that we'll get to but they these actors brought their cojones in regards to the emotion that needed to be filled in the character however as an audience member, I didn't have enough to care about them once they got to the point of,

23:44KT: you know, their emotions. Like a good example of that is right after they shot the cop, Slim was freaking out and he's like, about my family? What about my family? And he is giving such a masterful performance. Right? And he's fully getting you can visibly see that he's upset. He's starting to register that he's never gonna see his family again. And yes I know what it's like to have a family some cases when I love them but it wasn't enough like it was it was way too I wasn't lubricated enough essentially

24:16KT: for that emotional penetration and I think a lot of a lot of that was was my inability to enjoy or to latch onto these characters. They were just thrown in front of me saying they're going through this adversity, feel this now.

24:33Oti: Yeah. I see your point. And the thing is, I I just felt that I couldn't resonate at all just because of how quickly it seemed that it took Queen to break bad. Like, I'm I'm all for, you know, this is the situation we're in. Let's just handle it. But fuck's sakes. And the fact that she's a lawyer and she was that quick to just jump from, hey. This is just a normal night. We're heading home from a Tinder fucking date to,

25:05Oti: okay. We've shot a cop. Let's fucking go on a run. I don't care about my family. I have no one. Let's just go. I'm like, what? Did I miss something? Yeah. But then you start to see that she's she's usually that lone sort of wolf. So she's used to There's lone sort of wolf, and then there's judgment here. Okay. Cool. The new the picture doesn't look great. Black man kills a white cop.

25:32KT: Alright. Yeah. But they have the dashcam. But yes. And they have the dashcam. That looks good. It looks in their favor. Yeah.

25:39Oti: But that's all out the window the minute they run. They kidnap another cop, put him in the fucking trunk.

25:47KT: Shout out to Benito Martinez because we fucking love him.

25:51Oti: Like, I didn't just understand how easy it was for her to assimilate this role when we clearly saw Slim was struggling.

26:02KT: Well, I guess they're just two different types of people.

26:06Oti: Oh, man. There's different type of personalities in just being crazy.

26:10Oti: But can I just say the reason why they named Daniel Kaluuya as Slim is because those were his chances if he didn't have Queen? Because Queen literally led the way for him. She was like, do this, don't do that. You know, even she even clocked it when the sheriff, he realized that it was them. Right? So Queen was the person that you wanted to have in your Bonnie and Clyde sort of situation.

26:10KT: Interesting. Interesting that you would say that about Queen's character. I would say that she felt very one dimensional.

26:44KT: She felt very one dimensional until two thirds of the movie when it was revealed why she's so guarded. Yeah. And let's talk about it because we said spoilers. She's very emotionally jilted. She like it seems like she would get offended over anything or even nothing that people would say. And we start to see why later on in the film when we come across Uncle Earl. And we love this actor. You know what his name is? What's his name? Bokeem Woodbine.

27:15Oti: Bokeem.

27:17KT: Am I am putting him on my list of great names right next to Walton Goggins. Far out, mate. Bokeem. What a name and what a man. But yes, when she goes to Uncle Earl's place, obviously, a lot happens. But in regards to her character development, she starts to shed some layers. Right? I think it's later on in the film, but she starts to shed layers at that particular moment. And we later on find out in the film that she defended her uncle that killed her mother. Yeah. That's some hard shit, man.

27:53Oti: It is some hard shit. And it goes to show you, and I think that's when the moment where you can kind of sort of start seeing why she made the decision of just completely taking into the position they were in.

28:03KT: Yeah. But before that, was just flat note.

28:08Oti: She's a logical person. She was like, okay. My uncle is you he was in the wrong mind. He was upset. He didn't mean to hurt my mother. And for someone to be able to do that, you know, it it may take years for, you know, regular folks to just come to that sort of mentality. But for her, it was almost instant for and to also defend him in court for that.

28:29KT: But I think also at the same time, it is sad that she lost her mother, but I think that's all the family that she had left. Yeah. So it might've just been a case of her trying to keep the family that she has remaining. Maybe so. But she didn't and and this is this is actually a comment for all of the characters in Queen and Slim. None of the characters felt lived in.

28:56KT: And,

28:58KT: you know, we we love film but we also love TV shows and I guess the advantage of TV shows is you get to live and breathe with the characters and you can feel I I get I guess you get a better sense of who they are as people films don't have as much time in order for you to you know know piggyback off the top of them and feel what they're feeling I I in all of the holes. I reckon. Just to finish that thought, my ever eternal love Oti

29:38KT: that ever eternally likes to mansplain to me what I wanted to say is you have TV shows that have ample amount of hours you have movies that have a finite in some cases increasing hours but then you have amazing insular all encapsulating stories like Black Mirror but even better we have Inside No. 9 most recently we have Little America right? These are stories that last twenty to forty minutes yet in that there is enough emotional resonance and emotional payoff to make you

29:38Oti: And feel buy in.

29:38KT: Yeah. And buy in.

30:24KT: Yes. It's a whole monopoly reference board for all of the friends and lovers. And it it grows impatience with me now. When I watch a film that's two hours and twelve minutes long that fails to do what it needs to do in order for us to enjoy the world that we are in.

30:43Oti: Agreed. Like, mate, it's not like even Queen and Slim was that short. Queen and Slim was fucking long. Oh, yes. And this started in my opinion, this started sort of strongly and then it just tell it into some sort of weird nothingness Uh-huh. Where we're really not getting anything from it took a lot it took just a long time for for for Queen and Slim to get their mojo going. Uh-huh.

31:08Oti: And by the time they were this sort of coherent unit, it was a bit too late at the end of the movie. Uh-huh. And then they die. I'm like, okay. And everyone dies. Mate, you know, we've spent such a long time sitting here. And what for? What for? Exactly. When it could have been done so much better, the pacing was a bit off. They they could have really utilized the two hours of runtime to just execute this way better than what it was because at the heart of it, it's a good premise.

31:41Oti: It's a good sort of base to have a good platform to start making a movie that would pretty much be enjoyable to everyone and then to spend a bulk of it on just nothingness.

31:57KT: Well, it's interesting you say nothing because I would actually argue that it was too much. I feel like that you're saying nothing but there was actually too much in the story. What would have been great is if we just focused on Queen and Slim. However, what we get is a story that expands into different streams, different vehicles to show you the injustice of African Americans and that kid is one of them. The fact that they chose to kill off that kid, you didn't even earn that emotional payoff

32:33KT: And then it detracts from the emotional payoff of seeing the star crossed lovers having a Romeo and Juliet esque end. You know what I mean? Like choose your moments. Where do you want us to have the biggest emotional impact? And let's go there. An interesting thing that I just wanna mention is Lena Waithe, we haven't tried The Chi yet, but she also has a new show called Twenties. Yep. Where it's kind of based off her experiences in her twenties if you'll pardon the reference and the first

33:09KT: episode it's not necessarily a spoiler but the first episode is literally commentary on Lena Waithe as a character tweeting about how bad a particular show is and how that bites her in the ass. And, you know, it it it explores themes of how, you know, black creatives don't get as much opportunity so you should support them. And it's interesting. Like, there was a lot of juxtaposition about it was interesting. I I wonder if it was

33:44KT: more from her perspective saying stuff about other creatives or was it a cautionary tale of people saying, like, don't say shit about my shit. You know what I mean? Because I love you, Lena Waithe, and, you know, you listen to our Master of None episode if you'll be so kind. But, like, I get I understand that, you know, world cinema isn't at the same level of, like, Hollywood. Right? And they haven't been afforded the same sort of opportunities. But I also think that we're still allowed to analyze it and discuss it thoughtfully.

34:22Oti: Yeah. Yeah. I I just feel like she she's coming off as if she's stronger writing from a perspective of sort of her experiences and all. Yeah. But anyway, like, not not not not to say that the nothingness I meant in the movie was that it just didn't have enough of the dynamisms of what would make Queen and Slim the sort of counterpart to Bonnie and Clyde, for example. Like, if if it's Queen and Slim, show me them. Focus on them. Build their relationship. Focus on how that works even against the sort of

35:05Oti: society we live in vis a vis that. Like, it's all part of of having a plot that dictates the who you want to have as as a protagonist. Mhmm. And in this, even because in her failure to do that, in her failure to elevate Queen and Slim beyond just the name of the movie Yeah. To be a symbol is what is not felt at the end when they were shot, and I was staring at the screen emotionless.

35:38Oti: It's fucking sad when that happens because I felt a sort of need to to connect with these people. I wanted to connect with Queen and Slim so much. Can I spoil Set It Off? Yeah. And, like, you know what? Like, when all I've been hearing about this movie was Black Love and how fucking black love is amazing. It was very clear in the cinema. That's what people came for. Yeah. Yeah. Black love. I mean, no. And the truth is we don't get enough of black love in in cinemas and TVs.

36:10Oti: Mhmm. And I was on there for it.

36:13Oti: You know? Let's see this black love.

36:13KT: I get black love all the time. See? We haven't even had time to make jokes because we're so bloody frustrated over this movie.

36:29Oti: And I think we're frustrated because it could have been so much better.

36:33KT: But it had all of the tools. It did. It really did. I don't understand.

36:38Oti: And the fact that we were told that they they were given all the creative freedom to do this Oh, yes. And it's still under delivered, in my opinion, that's even that more frustrating.

36:49KT: Oh, yeah. Because they they were they were definitely capable.

36:53Oti: Because you have you have the acting chops of Kaluuya who could fucking make a paper bloody mellow fucking nothing. And

36:59KT: Hey. I couldn't drink tea for weeks.

37:03Oti: And then, you know, he was you know what? You you remember the first Black Mirror episode where we Fifteen Million Merits? Yeah. And that's only been his strongest stuff, but that's when I think you started seeing Kaluuya. It's the first time I I was introduced to the entity of all that is Kaluuya, hallelujah.

37:22KT: Yes.

37:25Oti: But from then on you could see this guy everything has

37:30KT: I wanted to see him and everything and let's take some time right now to say it I did shed a KT tear and that amounts to a 100 Oti tears but that's a story for another day but I did shed a tear watching Queen and Slim and it had nothing to do with the film. I was just marveling at how talented Daniel Kaluuya is. Like, I hope we really appreciate

37:58KT: how good we have it with him. And I know I have a love fest for Daniel Kaluuya, but you can come and fight me. What I wanted to say about Daniel Kaluuya is he brings so much emotion to his roles. However, he never overacts if you notice. Never. And I'm going to say it now. Twenty twenty, KT in the For Your Reference podcast, Daniel Kaluuya has the same emotional acting performances and is capable and I want to see him in a film with Colin Firth.

38:32KT: Can we do a can we do A Single Man with Daniel Kaluuya and Colin Firth, please? He won't be single, but you what I mean? Like, he is one of the greats. Right? Maybe Lena is never going to listen to this. Maybe he heard the general premise, the first draft of it, and he said yes, and it was too late to say no. Oh, but he was great. He was great in this film. I also feel in some ways that Slim's character is very similar to Lena Waithe as a person. Just very chill,

39:08KT: very laid back I think she thrives like you mentioned earlier I think she thrives in writing from her own frame of reference this film kind of tackled a lot of tentacles not even in a pleasurable hentai way unfortunately but you could see that he was a family guy if you'll pardon the pun but it wasn't it was forced it was forced on us to feel the way that he was feeling even the fact that they were on the run and they were in the mechanic shop and he took the phone and called his family

39:46KT: That is chaos. How good was it to see the father just hang up? Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like, you're on the run, dude.

39:53Oti: But that's his character. Like,

39:53KT: Can you wait can you wait till you're on the shores of Mexico on the beach or something?

39:53Oti: Really so. He felt safe at the moment, and it's understandable at least for me in that sort of position or situation for him to try and reach out. They gave us some sort of inklings of who he was and what he cared about. So I get that.

39:53KT: Let's talk about Queen. Because she really

40:17KT: we had to guess. We had to guess who she was as a person or we just accepted that she was one dimensional. She was angry. She had the world on her shoulders. And I'm not even saying that that's not warranted. Right? It's I can't even imagine what it would be to go through what she went through. However, as an audience member, I felt burdened to feel something every time she was on the screen. Every time she was on the screen, it was emotionally draining

40:47KT: for me. And I didn't even know why until two thirds of the film. I don't think that's fair to do. But I I do want to point something out and it's it's not as serious as everything we're talking about. But is she human? Because she literally got shot in the first scene and she carried on for days and apparently that didn't even cause a problem to her.

41:12Oti: You've seen people fucking die of blood infection.

41:17Oti: And just because she put bandage on that shit

41:17KT: Like, was it a solved flesh? Everything. Was it a flesh wound, or did she actually get shot? Because it looked like she got shot at the shot.

41:26Oti: Didn't even remove the bloody bullet. At least I don't remember that. Right. If it's a flesh wound, then maybe it went through and just came out or like, I don't I don't even wanna tackle that shit. Like, it's some anime level of of of reality in this.

41:39KT: Because she got shot, and twenty minutes later, I said to Oti, babe, did she like, are we just gonna ignore the fact that she just got shot?

41:50Oti: Them flagging a cop and her way you know, standing in front, like, waving her it. Leg. Exposing her leg with all the blood. What was that? My god. If you're smart, be smart throughout the whole movie. Don't have some elemental stupidityness throughout. But, you know, in as much as it took me a while to warm up to Queen Uh-huh. I did warm up to her. I think that's I did. That's when she shed off the many layers of what's causing her to be in such a way. And I think

42:28Oti: that helps me kind of start, okay. I see you go. You know? Yeah. Do your thing. You know? You're strong. You're a lawyer. You she remind me so much Max in Living Single. Oh, yeah. This was Max and Kyle through and through. Oh my god. Yes.

42:44KT: This is Maxine Shaw, attorney at law. And we literally just did a Living Single episode last week. You're wondering where Kyle and Max were? This is him. This is him. Because she was emotionally shut off.

42:56Oti: Yeah. She was emotionally shut off. But I did warm up to her. And what I love about this movie and in terms of what we're talking about black love is, you know, it's rare that we see the darker sort of people portrayed in such a sexy way. I'm not sure, like, you know, she's she's she's spilling it. She's she's she's there, having it. You know? Cool. Good. Good on her.

42:56KT: Friends and lovers, wait for the secret footage of Oti I have.

43:25KT: You wanna you wanna see some secret sexy dark skinned love? Wait for Oti's Moonlight.

43:35Oti: No. Look, I mean it. Like, you know, you rarely get this stuff. And for her, she portrayed sexy that she oozed. She was. She oozed sexy. And,

43:45KT: you know I even forgave the fact that she was wearing those heeled boots for how many days? Oh, hell if. I forgave her more than I forgave. Oh, she's one of the redheads. I don't know if she's Chastain or Howard, but the one in Jurassic Park. I think it's Bryce Dallas Howard. Yeah. Bryce Dallas Howard riding riding from dinosaurs with fucking in fucking heels. Yeah. But I'm saying I give Queen a pass even though that's kind of the same thing. Right? She's on the run-in her heeled boots.

44:16Oti: Well but, anyway, it's just you know, it's not that I hated everything in this. I didn't. There were moments where I really sort of resonated with both Queen and Slim. I started warming up to Queen a little bit too late in the movie, but it wasn't

44:16KT: But that was deliberate.

44:16Oti: It wasn't still enough for me to care that much when she got shot.

44:39KT: I like I said, like I said, I felt like we were forced to feel at every scene. There was no moment where we were I wouldn't necessarily call it preaching, but I will call it forced emotional connection and that's how it felt. This is a young African American kid therefore once he dies I have to feel something.

45:06Oti: Yeah.

45:07KT: And like what does that mean as a general sort of statement? If you're making so many heavily emotional statements then which one stands out? Where do I deposit my emotional resonance? Yeah. We don't have unlimited emotional resonance fluids like Oti does so we have to choose our moments friends and lovers but yeah there was there was a lot to be said about again it took me out of the film and it made me feel like I wanted to know what the writer's room was like and it was like

45:49KT: where can we make them feel stuff and again that that comment that Lena made about not caring or wanting white people to feel guilty especially white men to feel guilty about watching this film it's like come on, dude. Like like, is that really the place that you want people to watch your films in? Because I don't think I don't think even Spike Lee does that.

46:14Oti: It's definitely not a Spike Lee joint.

46:19KT: No. But you know what I mean. Like, he he covers African American themes, but he at least in in my case, it's not necessarily forcing people to feel bad because of their color.

46:29Oti: Andrew, we'll take you back to Set It Off. Like, I think how they did it, and this heavily borrows off what Set It Off did. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I reckon Set It Off still does it 10 times better, if not more. Yeah. Because you have the payoff. You have the message that's there. If if it's police brutality good, it's been covered in there in such a good way.

47:01Oti: And you buy into the characters. There's enough of you to know about the character that you care about them. And by the end of it, I'm not gonna spoil Set It Off because you're not covering it. But there's a very End of it. Yep. You get all the feels.

47:17KT: No. But even throughout, there is a key death that becomes a catalyst for that film. Yeah. So they chose its moments. Yeah. But they also had moments of joy. Just genuine unbridled joy where we get to feel the characters. Yeah. I feel like this didn't happen. Every scene was purposeful to make you feel something as opposed to us, like, living and breathing with the characters.

47:41Oti: Which is weird because I I didn't feel like this film had any sort of levity to it. Oh, yes. But in the cinema, people were laughing at random moments, and I was like, am I missing something? What's going on? Because I did not think that's funny. It will just be Kaluuya talking, and then people start laughing. I'm like, okay. Am I just detached from this Well, let's experience completely?

48:09KT: What was the last film that we watched in the cinema? It would have been Bad Boys. Bad Boys. Yeah. So there you go. So we haven't been to the cinema in a couple of months, and this particular experience was a bit jarring to me. Like, it made me feel like maybe we should just watch shit from home because like like you said, there was there was reactions at moments that didn't need reactions. But I guess it also

48:39KT: points out to a very beautiful thing, but also a very different thing where there's different sort of moviegoers. There's people that go for the love of film and there's people that go for the love of representation. Yeah. And hopefully there's a Venn diagram where they overlap. However, I felt like it didn't overlap here. And I feel like the biggest sort of downfall with this film was the storytelling.

49:08KT: Yeah. Because it wasn't really storytelling. It was let's bash feelings into you that you need to be feeling but let's let's cover off a couple of other characters you know just to just to have some more comprehension because again it wasn't just Queen and Slim they introduced a whole bunch of characters which I felt wasn't necessary But you know who is very necessary? Chloë Sevigny. The pronunciation, maybe not necessary, but is is that how you would say it, Oti?

49:36Oti: That's how I'd say it. But then again, I'm bad at saying anything, really.

49:43KT: Oh, don't do that. You didn't write this movie. Let's talk about Chloë Sevigny and also Flea. So Flea was a comrade to Uncle Earl. And he was the point of contact once they got to, I don't know, American geography, come fight me. But was it somewhere in Florida or some shit? Yeah. Okay. Whatever. They had to get where they were getting and Flea was there to be the beacon and to accept them in. Mhmm. Right? Let's talk a bit about those characters.

50:18Oti: Yeah. Is is I think it was calculated for them to be white.

50:26KT: Really? You thought something you thought something in this was calculated?

50:30Oti: Like, come on, mate. It just felt too too on the nose. Anyway, yeah, you know, they they're helping people in the cause. You know? Not sure it's the cause we all want to tackle in the same way, but they took us there. Yep. But you know what? They were they they stuck to their guns. Yeah. They stuck to their guns in terms of trying to protect them. I think Chloë was a bit resistant at first. Yep. But fully talked into it.

51:06KT: Mhmm. That's why friends are very important. Yeah. Yep. And

51:10Oti: at the end of it, they were kind of sad when they launched it that Queen and Slim won no more. Yeah.

51:17KT: I think it was nice to have Chloë Sevigny as a character that wasn't necessarily seen as a good person just to round it out, know, just to make everyone feel a bit okay. But I I I appreciated having them as a part of the story. It was quite interesting to have. Is there anything else you wanna say about Uncle Earl that we didn't really cover? There is one thing I wanna mention about him and, know, Queen definitely gave him some graces and in some cases I believe it was not

51:54KT: necessarily warranted but it's understandable why she would give graces to Uncle Earl and she said that he was never really the same once he come back from the war. Yeah,

52:03Oti: which was fair enough. He gets treated like a king in his house so that's good but he doesn't treat them necessarily as queens

52:13KT: No pardon but what they're talking about how dare you how dare you pardon our puns We're not lubricated for your pardon puns unfortunately but it's some real shit, right? And we don't have time if you wanna listen to our Escape Room episode and get something out of it, we talk about veterans and how we need to treat them better but you could see Uncle Earl has gone through some shit and there's definitely some pain and some pain that he continues to inflict as well unfortunately but he still looks out for Queen. There

52:55KT: were some funny moments as well when they get given the card to continue their road trip Slim says, thank you uncle. He's like, I'm not your uncle. And I feel like that's where Lena Waithe thrives in, like, not even in a derogatory way, but, like, in the menial sort of interactions that people have about commentary, whether it's not necessarily social commentary because that is a whole base that needs to be tackled. But just about like observational sort of inferences, I think Lena Waithe really thrives in that. So you'll have moments even when

53:37KT: they're eating the burgers in the back of the That's an Australian word. I think in America, they call it a pickup truck.

53:44Oti: And you can't even just call it a pickup.

53:47KT: Oh my. But, you know, when she when he was asking Queen, you know, what she does or are you good at your job, she says, I'm an excellent lawyer. And Slim's like, why black people gotta be excellent all the time? That was hilarious. But that's a classic Lena Waithe, like, sorta line. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And you do have those moments peppered throughout this film that I really appreciate.

53:47Oti: Forgot those moments, and I blame Lena for that. Yeah. I love it. I felt like there was zero levity.

54:20KT: Do you wanna blame her for all the child support you're not paying around the world? Or

54:24Oti: Yeah.

54:25KT: We haven't mentioned this in a long time but Oti has many babies around the world and feel free to reach out.

54:25Oti: Yeah. They don't call me mister Wild Wild for nothing.

54:25KT: Damn, Doug. Are there any other characters you wanna tackle in this film at all? We talked about the sheriff. I think I wanna talk about him a little bit as a character. How did you feel about him? He had an accent to him. Where were they? Again, I don't know American geography, but he seemed to be in a country sort of

54:59KT: state. Right? He was very cowboy. He was very Daddywood all about it.

55:04KT: Do you feel like he was going to turn them in? Because I feel like I feel like Queen no. I mean, before he even knew who they were.

55:04Oti: Oh, no. He was just helping to be a good bloke.

55:04KT: I didn't think he was going to either. I think it was once he knew and he had an inkling that it was them Yeah. That's when I don't think he was going to give them up before. No. Because he was helping them buy gas. Though he he didn't have a reason to turn them in.

55:29Oti: But why didn't As much as he knew, it was just Randalls on the stuck in the road.

55:33KT: The random lady that been shot but she's like completely fine. Yeah. Just shot but just chilling. I'm alright. Just leave me here. I'm okay. I really appreciated his character. I think it also helps in some sort of distorted way to balance the whole perception about police.

55:53KT: He

55:55KT: didn't die, did he?

55:57Oti: We don't know. Probably not. Unless he ran out of air in that truck, which would be sad.

56:03KT: How did you feel about when Slim went into a different, like, petrol station or what do they call it in America? A gas station where that white guy was asking to hold his gun? Why would you give that to him though?

56:19Oti: Because he's not a killer. I think it was more to show us the sort of person Slim is. But, yeah, that was just plain stupid regardless of what kind of person you are. You've already killed someone, mate. You're on the run. Like, the world you're in. There are newspapers in front of that guy's desk with your faces on it. Oh, yes.

56:44KT: So before we go into For Your Reference, there are two scenes that I wanna talk about. There's the opening scene and then there's the final scene. The reason why I wanna talk about the opening scene is it it felt like there was a lot of contextual sort of knowledge you were supposed to have before it started. What do you mean? Like, I didn't need to see anything before the scene started. However, the emotional buy in was right from the start. So if you're going to do that, you need to work us into that.

57:22KT: So it's one of the two ways, either you show us a bit of their life and then we have a buy in or you don't demand the buy in right from the onset. Anyway, what I wanted to bring up is, we talked a lot about making us have to feel something and something that we see in the opening scene is Queen talking about how well, Slim was asking, you know, for three weeks, I had a perfectly worded

57:50KT: message and you never responded. Why did you respond to me now to have dinner tonight? And she said that she needed company. She couldn't be alone. By the way, she was shit company anyway. But she needed company because one of her clients was sentenced to death. Yeah. I don't know, man. Like, it's it's always good to reach out and say you need help or you need company, but that's a lot. That's a lot to offload, isn't it?

58:21Oti: And you can tell by Slim's reaction to that.

58:25KT: No. But to to purposefully say such a heavy thing like your client is, you know, going to be their life is going to be taken, then to not offer to be vulnerable after that, I thought was a bit it was a bit crude. Like, you know, have you ever met someone and they just tell you the deepest darkest secret of their life and you don't know anything about them? Yeah. That's how it felt.

58:57Oti: Yeah. I guess I didn't think too much about it.

59:02KT: You meet someone on the first date and they say that, you know, their their clients going off to capital punishment. That's a lot to say, which is fine, but she didn't offer any sort of emotional sort of vulnerability to that. So why are you saying that shit? Are you just trying to make him feel bad for agreeing to go on a date with you? Not really, but it's just how as a person, she doesn't offer any sort of emotional resonance until pretty much towards the end of the movie. Stop making people feel bad then.

59:31KT: Jesus Christ. Oh, fucking hell, man. It was onerous. Mhmm. It was onerous. And like I said, there weren't any leveling of the intensity. It was all at DMX a 100% the whole way through. So let's talk about the final scene of the film. So so much has happened. You can hear it. I feel like the character development on Oti and I is much more stronger than what happened in the film. But what we get at the end of the scene is maybe not necessarily full true

60:16KT: love between Queen and Slim but they have an intrinsic connection between each other yeah right and what we have there is literally if you were to think what's the most extreme thing that can happen in the final scene that's what happened it turned into an all guns blazing shootout of eternal love between the two of them I you know in many other cases it might have had more of a payoff it might have been well welcomed in the KT's section or the For Your Reference household however without ever having a chance to naturally organically

61:09KT: gravitate towards these characters it felt very forced to me even in the dialogue we have Slim saying well she's saying I can be your legacy and you can be my legacy and then Queen gets shot That was purposefully done to make you be like, she can't be the legacy. She's dead now. Right? And then you have Slim picking her up and walking towards the cops like, you know, whether he's consciously or he's blacked out and he doesn't know what he's doing and then he gets gunned down

61:35Oti: He knew what he was doing. He he knew he knew he was going to die there. He wanted to die there. There was no leaving that for he was not going to go to jail for that shit.

61:53KT: He could've gone back to his family, though.

61:56Oti: He really couldn't.

61:59KT: Anyway, so you have him getting gunned down and then they are on the floor. And it pretty much ends into a cutscene and then we have Gale, Robert, Robert. Uh-uh. She should have been like Lena. Lena, don't do that to the script.

62:16Oti: Rewrite the script.

62:20KT: Why do you sound like Smeagol?

62:22Oti: That's my Gael impression.

62:26KT: Your Gaelic impression?

62:28Oti: Yeah.

62:30KT: What was that? A Heidi Heidi Heidi help? Yep. Oh my. It just I feel like in any other instance where the story would have been less clouded, that really would have been the big crescendo. But it got drowned out by all the other members in the percussion with all of their instruments, right? Yeah. It just got in the way. Know, Oti said that we enjoyed other parts of the film.

62:30Oti: I said stuff. I'm not sure what you want me to say.

62:30KT: I had expectations but how I feel overall in regards to the film

63:17KT: aren't tainted by that. I think I had a lot of qualms, many, many qualms that won't be reconciled and it is unfortunate because I really wanted this film to be great.

63:29Oti: Yeah. Me too.

63:31KT: But, you know, thank you guys so much for listening. We we love you, love you, love you. And if you've watched this film, please please please reach out to us because we definitely want to hear, you know, your thoughts Yeah. About this film.

63:46Oti: Yeah. Like, just to qualm here while we're ending. Yeah. Melina said, you know, we've not seen dark people make love in in cinema as much. Well,

64:01KT: Vin Diesel has love scenes in the dark. Does that knock out?

64:06Oti: And then the scene is in a car in fucking broad daylight. What's what's challenging about that?

64:12KT: I was expecting more directing chops from that scene. Oh, actually, can I make a comment about the directing in this film? Yeah. I feel like there was no hand of Melina Matsoukas in this at all. And if we ever get big enough, I guess we're going to get in trouble for these comments. But if we talk about a visionary that did the Formation music video, like, I don't get it. There were a lot of, like, some landscape shots. There were moments where I felt like I should be watching Supernatural or American Gods. Carry

64:43Oti: on my

64:47KT: And if you didn't think you were going to get my wayward son in a Queen and Slim review, It's fucking For Your Reference. I don't know what else you're expecting to have. But we are going to close off in the segment we call For Your Reference. Oti, as as we all know, loves a reference. And he did refer to this quote earlier and it is from that podcast episode that I was listening to. So I just wanna mention it here. It is paraphrasing. She talked about Queen and Slim being reflective of society.

65:21KT: We can be beautiful. We also can be very ugly. Take away what you bring to it. Some people might hate it. Some people might love it. Some people might think it's irresponsible. But to me, that's what good art is. It should be debated. Whether this is art is very debatable. Before I get into any sort of trouble, let's dive into For Your Reference, Oti. Woo hoo.

65:49Oti: I'm gonna reference the one and only Set It Off. Oh, yes. If you want to see a store a story told with beautiful pacing Uh-huh. Exposition beautifully chilled Mhmm. Or laid out, if you will. Set It Off does it so good, so brilliantly for a movie in its early nineties. Oh, you would love it. You would watch it. You'd cry. You'd have feels, and then you'd wonder what the fuck did Queen and Slim do. And just to bring it more a more recent sort of reference,

66:29Oti: I dare to put The Hate U Give on there because Oh, yes. It's being slept on a bit. I think they did it really beautifully. You know, it it it didn't break bank or anything like that, but it did tell the story quite beautifully. Yeah. Yeah. What about you?

66:48KT: I've got two references just like you, Oti. The first one obviously is Get Out not just because Daniel Kaluuya is in it. And can we just point out the character development of KT in 2020? We saw the full moon of KT and I didn't even mention it in this whole episode. Uh-huh. But obviously I had to say it somewhere so you get it at the end. Uh-huh. Because if we talk about social commentary being conveyed through multiple devices, however, it all becomes in a cohesive sort of narrative,

67:28KT: that's Get Out Yeah. Through and through. Cutely enough, we also have an episode on that. And you'll be surprised, but I will reference Luce. Oh. Because as as much as I had qualm with the constructs of the characters in the film, I really felt like it was strong in all the points it needed to be strong in. And it also explores two different types of black experience. It had the experience of being African American from Octavia or as Oti likes to say, Olivia Spencer's character. And also what it's like to be black and migrate

68:09KT: to America. So I would definitely reference Luce. And again, cutely enough, also have an episode on that as well. Go and take a go and take a nice enjoying bath friends and lovers or if you're fancy enough and you have a Jet Spa, go and turn on those boosters.

68:28Oti: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

68:29KT: Thank you so much for listening, on Twitter and Instagram. We are ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. If you wanna leave us a Apple rating and review, we would very much love and welcome that. However you rate it is completely up to you. And we also have a Patreon if you're interested. Mhmm. And we'll see you guys next fucking week. See you. Bye.