Princess Mononoke – Love at forest sight

Full transcript of Princess Mononoke – Love at forest sight.

0:00KT: Ichi, ni, san. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. This is our most delectable Reference Degustation. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. If you're nasty and you come in at the third course, you are most welcome. If you've joined us in the degustation, we started off with a very palatable Spirited Away. We also moved into a very juicy sumptuous Porco Rosso. And this third course that we are delivering to you is Mononoke Hime. Take the show away.

1:00KT: Howdy, friends and lovers. Welcome back to the For Your Reference podcast. You've got your host, KT.

1:00Oti: And Oti.

1:00KT: And if you're well behaved, Oti will be your waiter for the third course in the Reference Degustation. Oh. Hold on to your jewel daggers because your ex is going to stab you in the heart. Today today, we are covering Mononoke Hime, otherwise known as Princess Mononoke. And what a film.

1:34Oti: What a film indeed.

1:36KT: What, what, what a film indeed. Yes, it's Studio Ghibli. We know it's very cute that it's like a mispronunciation with the accent saying Ghibli, but we do recognize a Ghibli in the For Your Reference household. And you know what I'm just realizing Oti, we are, you know, consciously learned, but apparently we're accidentally learned because this is the third course and san means three in Japanese. Oh, ichi ni san. Woah. Right there. Three times a sploosh, friends and lovers. But, yes, they are all Miyazaki masterpieces. Obviously, he wrote and also directed

2:21KT: this film. We have Joe Hisaishi, which has seen us through so far at the Reference Degustation. And, you know, you can we can talk more about the music, but it's quite evident that it has more substantial and tangible depth as opposed to the whimsical sort of themes that you would hear in Spirited Away, for example. So, you know, it is four chef kisses all round. This is quite a big film for Miyazaki. It is one of the most successful in our Spirited Away episode. We talked about the Japanese Academy Prize.

3:03KT: Yep. And only two animated films have got it, Spirited Away and the first one being Princess Mononoke. And they now have an animated category. But at the time, it was going up against films that weren't animated. Yeah. So it showed me. And it also has you know, if you read fun facts about Miyazaki, you would have heard about him sending a samurai sword, you know, to the Disney studios with a simple note saying no cuts. No cuts. Which was a cute gesture, but it was also a cute threatening

3:36KT: sort of gesture. And that was actually based off of the way they butchered Nausicaa.

3:43Oti: Oh, yeah. I think it was to do with them wanting to also Cut it down. Cut it out to bring the rating down to a PG. Yeah.

3:51KT: Bloody hell, man. And, you know, like I said in the Spirited Away episode, Miyazaki is known for not finishing storyboards right up until the end of production. And, you know, other people, I won't give you graces, but having consumed and immersed myself in the world of Miyazaki, this man can do whatever the fuck he wants.

4:08Oti: Yeah. And who the fuck do you think you are to make to cut his fucking film?

4:17KT: And if you haven't watched the official first cinematic release of Nausicaa Valley of the Wind, please do that. We have paired it quite nicely. Again, maybe it's accidental learnedness. But it is. There there are quite a lot of very similar themes aside from the overall sort of tangible themes that Miyazaki has that you have with Princess Mononoke and also Nausicaa, Valley of the Wind. So you'll expect that as our fourth course later on in this week, in this month long celebration of our one year. Yep. In regards to adapting it to the English

4:57KT: sort of language, it was made very clear that there wasn't going to be a full upheaval of English dubs. Again, if you watch a lot of animes, know, there's controversy about, you know, just changing it for the sake of changing it and it completely loses its meaning or, you know, in order for it to relate more to American audiences, it loses its essences essentially. Neil Gaiman, so sad what's happening to American Gods. But that's

5:27KT: a story for another day. Ian McShane, our Daddywood at the For Your Reference podcast. One of the shows you actually look forward to watching. We waited so we could cover it, but it seems like it's falling apart unfortunately. Falling to pieces. So this film was released in July 1997. I don't know if you could guess, but apparently, Quentin Tarantino was approached before Gaiman to adapt this into the English dub.

5:51Oti: Oh, good. No one wants to see Kaya's feet me.

5:58KT: Yeah. And I don't think we're ready for San to say the n word. Oh, no. No. Yeah. So Neil Gaiman, he essentially, he was given a full translation to English and he was only supposed to change things just so like we talked about in Spirited Away, just explaining that like Haku's a dragon. Like, just explaining the small sort of bits.

6:23KT: Like Jake changed sake to wine. He also there were also some things that he wasn't allowed to he wasn't allowed to mention China or also Japan. Yeah. I don't know why that would be more palatable. But anyway, that's just some context in regards to that. For the budget, it was 2,400,000 Japanese yen. It's one of the most expensive animated films ever.

6:50Oti: Yeah. Must have been the most expensive of the time as well. More than Akira. More than Akira which

6:56KT: is wow wow wow wow wow. My stats are all over the place so come and fight me in American and Japanese. But the worldwide gross was a $162,100,000.

7:10Oti: Pretty penny.

7:11KT: Foof indeed. My Neighbor Totoro, that we're not covering as a part of our degustation, maybe that's on the kiddies menu. That catapulted Studio Ghibli into essentially, the merchandising is what, you know, brought acclaim to Ghibli on an international sort of scale. So that's why you see Totoro as the Studio Ghibli logo. But in regards to, you know, butts in cinemas and acclaim and respect and all around Miyazaki becoming a household name, it started from Princess Mononoke. Oh, yeah. Gotta bring the arthouse audience in. Deservedly so. Deservedly so.

7:54KT: Playing San, we have Ishida Yuriko. Mhmm. Playing Ashitaka, we have Matsuda Youji. And a good sort of crossover that we have with this pairing, Youji also played Asbel in Nausicaa. Oh. The kid. Oh. So he's kind of that love stricken kid that follows the strong woman around.

8:18Oti: Yeah.

8:20KT: And we also have some crossovers that I just wanna mention as well. Toki, the rambunctious wife that lives in the Ironworks to Kuroku. She's played by Shimamoto Sumi who played Nausicaa.

8:20Oti: Well, when you've got the talent Yeah. You keep them around. Great great voice actors. You come yeah?

8:20KT: And I also want to mention as well for an upcoming Reference Degustation, Moro, the wolf that we have played by Miwa Akihiro actually plays the Witch of the Waste in Howl's Moving Castle.

8:56Oti: Oh, wow.

8:57KT: And I just wanna mention this now before I forget. Miwa Akihiro is known and lovingly plays a female impersonator. Mhmm. And the reason why that's relevant and why it's cute and why it's a fun fact is because in Japanese sort of mythology, wolves have like a masculine sort of quality to them. That's why when we started watching this film in the Japanese subtitles, we were wondering, that a man or is that a woman? Contrasting to Gillian Anderson.

9:34Oti: Really?

9:34KT: Yeah. Candace Moro? Yeah. Even Okay. Brilliant. Yeah. And even before recording this, I said, did you wanna try the English dub just so we could see it? But, you know, we're too learned to have the English dub in the For Your Reference House.

9:34Oti: Oh, wow.

9:34KT: And Billy Bob Thornton is also on the English dub.

9:34Oti: Oh, Gillian and Billy Bob.

9:34KT: And just just I think this is the most English dub we've ever talked about.

9:58KT: But Toki is played by Jada Pinkett Smith.

9:58Oti: Oh, you gotta love some Jada.

9:58KT: Some freshly minted Pinkett Smith, mind you. So there's the cast that we have in regards to Mononoke Hime otherwise known as Princess Mononoke. While we're on that actually, the the team that was adapting it into English subs really couldn't find another word for Mononoke. So essentially Mononoke means angry or vengeful spirit. Mhmm. And they couldn't unless they thought that, like, angry princess, like, just did it. Disney's angry princess. Or like the the the Japanese Disney warrior princess. Or

10:44KT: maybe they could've called her like the Red Wing warrior princess.

10:44Oti: Oh, Red Wing warrior princess.

10:44KT: Oti knows all about it. Email him.

10:53Oti: Got some badges, mate.

10:58KT: So let's get into our themes or if you're fancy and you love a degustation, we've got some tasting notes. Mhmm. Just like a fine wine. And if you've listened to our Spirited Away and our Porco Rosso episode, you would have heard these themes already. This is going to be a fun one, Oti. Oh, yeah. So hi, friends and lovers. If this is the first time, not just in this Reference Degustation, in general, welcome, welcome, welcome. What a sumptuous episode you are on.

11:31KT: But if you've been joining in this Reference Degustation, you will know or if you've watched Miyazaki films, you will know that there are some tangible sort of themes that he likes to introduce. Introduce. Mhmm. Mhmm. And And again, again, this this is is not not Quentin Miyazaki. So we're talking about Quentin Jerome Miyazaki. You definitely bring a flavor to this podcast.

11:31Oti: You're welcome.

11:31KT: A flavor that I don't have in my spice cabinet. Let's just put it that way. I don't even know what to do now. You you've completely bamboozled me.

12:10KT: But let's start off with the first sort of evident theme that Miyazaki has, and that is planes slash flying. Just a quick sort of summary, Miyazaki's father built parts for planes and his love for, you know, the the nature of flying and the innovation of flying is quite evident in a lot of his films. Do you feel like that was here, Oti?

12:10Oti: No. Not really. Not not in this.

12:10KT: Good. Because that was a trick question. So

12:41Oti: I was watching the same movie as you, mate.

12:44KT: Well, you're from a different spice of reference. Well, the interesting thing about this is Miyazaki got sick of people comparing and pointing the fact that he has lots of flying in his films.

12:44Oti: Oh, really?

12:44KT: Yeah. That he purposely he purposely did not include any sort of flying element in this film.

12:44Oti: Wow. Smoke bomb?

12:44KT: He's like, yeah. You think I'm a one foot pony? We need to leave Quentin Jerome Tarantino alone. Clearly. Yes. So two, three, all the dicks to you, Oti. The next theme that we have with Miyazaki is anti war. As Mr.

13:34KT: Mackey would say, war is bad. War is really bad. So what do you think about that theme?

13:42Oti: Not in the aspect that it's covered in Porco Rosso or anything like that, but there's definitely elements of anti war Mhmm. Especially when it comes to the conflicts between the humans and the forest and the animals. And as much as the humans are destroying the forest, there are better ways to go about achieving sort of peace with that Mhmm. Yep. Rather than try and go full gung-ho. So there is some elements of that.

14:13KT: Oh, 100%. 100% agree. But, yes, it isn't a 100% like Porco Rosso where it was, like, the most tangible sort of Yeah. Time and place, so World War one. There is war between humans because there's the introduction of guns. Right? And, you know, I I guess you could say on some element it's too simplistic to you know, as a theme of war just a 100% is being bad. I guess you could draw that comparison, but that's not necessarily how I feel. I feel like it was done quite well. When we do our Nausicaa episode,

14:54KT: it it was quite interesting to watch these relatively close together and see the, you know, the the key messages and how in some cases, Mononoke thrived in its ability to refine it Yeah. A lot more if you're So pardon the I think anti war was quite present, not just in the fact of like war against nature or war against animals, but also against people. Yeah. And I do wanna talk a bit more about the lepers as well because that was quite an interesting sort of element to introduce into that as well. There

15:31KT: were questions about whether Miyazaki introduced, you know, lepers into the film as a way to, you know, denote to possibly the way that we we treat lepers in general. Mhmm. And he did confirm that. And Miyazaki doesn't confirm a lot of the messages that he chooses to portray. I think it does leave a lot to be open. Right? And I I guess that kind of brings me to like This Is America of like Donald Glover. Like sometimes it's nice for creatives just to leave it open. If you give people enough breadcrumbs Mhmm. Hansel

16:08KT: Oti and Gretel KT will find their way to Sploosh Mountain. Yeah. Yeah. But I think as we continue to talk about the film, we're going to bring up a lot about the anti war as well. The next theme that sleeves in quite nicely and sometimes it's paired together is environment and how we treat it or also how we mistreat environment. Do you think that was tackled in this film?

16:08Oti: Yes. That was a very that was a very 60 Minutes question.

16:08KT: I wanted a specific sound bite.

16:46Oti: Yeah. The whole I think the the most important underlying theme of the movie is about the environment and how we treat it and the sort of conflict that exists between even now. It's such an newest movie where, you know, it's applicable decades later. So it's definitely covered in abundance.

17:06KT: In abundance indeed. And I guess just to give, you know, a bit of a reference in regards to Miyazaki, he actually used to visit a blacksmith as a kid. And he was so awe inspired by, you know, the craft and the artisanal sort of nature and the craftsmanship of being a blacksmith. But then he saw the resources that were needed in order to create Yeah. And it kind of inspired him to make this movie. And I think that denotes quite a lot to this film generally.

17:42KT: I think it's more of an even handed sort of message in regards to how we treat the environment. It's not necessarily that we need to live as we did in ancient times.

17:54Oti: But there are definitely better ways of going about it. Definitely. And that's a 100%.

17:59KT: And I think it was more clear cut when you watch Oscar as well. But I think that was quite an interesting, you know, sort of tasting note to have. And, you know, this film the the foundation of this film is our environment and that fucking dickhead of a deer god. We'll come to that very soon. The next theme that we have, Oti, is a female lead slash kids.

18:26Oti: I wonder why we had that. Oh, for sure. We have Princess Monono. Okay. Hello. She's strong even, you know, she she's carrying the whole sort of body, and she has to be doubly tough living in the forest being human, you know, around other animals who, of course, apart from the Moro tribe, see her as human. She's quite strong. And the way she goes about fighting Ironworks, she's super dedicated. She's like a single will sort of conviction in terms of getting Lady Eboshi to to kill Lady Eboshi, pretty much. Uh-huh.

19:07Oti: She's really strong and dedicated. I I think she's one of the strongest characters we've seen in a Miyazaki movie.

19:18KT: Oti has come to the table, guys. Yeah. And he has come on the table, mind you. And we all most welcome. You know when you go to fancy restaurants and they have like the little water with the lemon to like cleanse your fingers? We have Oti's fluids. Again, you saw Princess Mononoke, it does have a higher rating in regards to maturity but you probably thought you were safe but you should have paid attention to the explicit tag for this episode. Interesting thing in regards to San,

19:58KT: which is her name, she doesn't appear until like twenty minutes in the film Yeah. Which is quite interesting. One of the producers of the film was quite worried that they wouldn't be able to keep, you know, the runtime of the film, you know, within a tight sort of two two hours. Right?

20:16Oti: Well, that's back when they cared about runtimes.

20:21KT: Okay, Oti Pesci.

20:21Oti: Right now, they'll just do a fucking four hour movie without any care in the world.

20:21KT: Well, you know what? Shout outs to Martin Scorsese because we've mentioned The Irishman in two of these courses. So I think that's what exactly what he wanted to do. But one of the working titles for this film was The Legend of Ashitaka. Because if you think about it, San is the hero and it is called Princess Mononoke.

20:50KT: But also at the same time, again, she doesn't turn up until like twenty minutes in. Yeah. So it is interesting. I don't know how we would feel about potentially having, you know, Ashitaka as our main character. But it is based on well, I guess you could say that part of this film was based on a graphic novel written and also illustrated by our all hailed Hayao Miyazaki

21:16KT: called The Journey of Shuna. And it's also about a prince that has an elk as well. I'm just showing her to you the photo. Mhmm. So that also draws some influences and also with Yakul as well. But I I really like the way that this film was structured. And also talking about the structure of this film, you'll notice there is quite a lot of dark themes with this. And again, we didn't mean to do this, but since Miyazaki did Porco Rosso, he wanted to tackle something a bit more darker.

21:51KT: And he also mentioned, once he did Porco Rosso, he couldn't go back to doing Kiki's Delivery Service Yeah. Which if you've watched it, it's about a cute little witch on a broomstick. Mhmm. Right? So he wanted to tackle something with some more dark themes because we were talking about war, we were talking about inability to love and accept yourself, you know, rather being a pig than a fascist Mhmm. In Porco Rosso. And then now you have Princess Mononoke. So it still has more real world shit essentially. So

22:26KT: that I think that's quite interesting and it's it's quite a nice sort of menu we've got going on Oti. I smell what Oti is cooking and we are almost welcome. Oh, yeah. The next theme that we have which I think was quite interesting and I definitely wanna dive into some more detail is the ambiguity that Miyazaki has. The ability that he allows his characters to have multiple dimension. You know, someone isn't a 100% bad in his films and they're not a 100% evil good rather.

22:59Oti: Oh, yeah. I think the perfect example for this is Lady Eboshi. Yeah. On one hand, she's destroying the forest, but on the other, she's pretty much helping a community thrive. She's taking in lepers. She's taking the people who are disregarded by the society in lepers and prostitutes and helping them and founding a community around them, giving them a purpose to live, giving them a purpose to to to to be proud of themselves.

23:28Oti: So Lady Eboshi is quite a complex character, and I think this is kind of the things that we started seeing in Spirited Away as well, you know, where it's not no no one is inherently at least bad in this where Lady Eboshi has some layers to her.

23:41KT: Yeah. And by the end She she definitely had more complexity than Yubaba in Spirited Away. She she was less mustache twirling.

23:51Oti: And and I and I and I guess my point was more towards Yubaba's sister and the way they try to depict the two. Yeah. So in this, Mononoke, we have Lady Eboshi who's fundamentally, I think, a good person, albeit doing

24:08KT: Oh, wait.

24:10Oti: Would say that fundamentally a good person who's kind of just doesn't see the bigger picture.

24:10KT: How about this? She's a person and being a person means you're flawed.

24:10Oti: I'll agree with that. No. Because a good person can accept when they're wrong. And at the end of this, we see that she accepts what she's done and she understands the importance of the environment and sees, hey. Okay. So I've had some sort of character development by the end of it where I can accept my faults and try and change and build build a better community,

24:43Oti: which she does.

24:45KT: Okay. I I said in our Porco Rosso episode, I will never rank the Miyazaki films and don't ask me to do that. But I do feel like in particular with Lady Eboshi that her character development was a bit too tight. Yeah.

25:03Oti: It was a bit too tight into a bow. Oh, I thought you're going to say it's a bit too Tyler Perry. Was like, what?

25:10KT: Okay. Oti Jerome Tarantino. You've got a lot of aliases today apparently. It ain't easy b y. That's an Arrested Development reference which we need to fucking cover this year. But what we are covering today is Mononoke Hime, otherwise known as Princess Mononoke. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for continuing to tune in. But Lady Eboshi definitely stirs up a lot within humanity. You know, it's like that meme, you think you're San, but you're really Lady Eboshi. But that's I like the fact that we toy with, you know,

25:53KT: inherently good, inherently bad because that just doesn't exist aside from other instances that we're not going to get into today. The next theme shall we move on? Mhmm. The next theme, Miyazaki really has an affinity for pigs and he's also known for illustrating himself as a pig. How was the pig fair in Princess Mononoke?

26:18Oti: Oh, we got some pegs. We got some stupid pegs. But we do have pigs in there. So you have them in boars. Those are just pretty much wild pigs. And they're quite fundamental in the story because we see the curse is spread to Ashitaka Uh-huh. From a boar that was shot by Lady Eboshi's guns, and it's it starts from there. That's this that's pretty much the starting point of the movie. And with Okkoto, we'll come and see how just pigs are displayed in this where they're pretty much dumbass.

26:55KT: Did you say displayed of pigs?

26:58Oti: You wish. But we see how they're displayed and they're pretty much dumb, I think. Well, they're for for lack of reference pun, they're pig headed.

27:07KT: Like, they had a goal and that's all they focused on. And let's definitely put a bookmark in regards to, you know, the initial scene because that was quite interesting in regards to the curse because it's essentially hatred. Right? You've got those wriggly sort of worm maggots but essentially it's symbolizing your hatred and you can't see past that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So let's definitely put a bookmark on that but in regards to, you know, the fact that it really is the reference circle of life. I

27:46KT: know throw all the tomatoes at me, but it really is because you see the highs and lows and you see aside from the humans really, that there are graces to be given to all parties in this. Again, aside from the humans. Yes, they will continue to take advantage of nature to advance, right? Unless you're gonna be more agricultural. You know, to advance into a metropolitan sort of society, you need to take advantage of nature, but there's a way to do that. Yeah. And I really enjoyed the finesse in the message in the film.

28:23KT: But pigs definitely gets a big tick. Okkoto, to his own detriment, to his own people, sacrificed them all. He did. They drank the pig-aid at the Bay of Pigs, and it was a fiasco for them all. But we'll definitely talk about the interplays between the different animals because I thought that was quite interesting, but pigs definitely get to be tick. But you'll also notice, like even in Spirited Away and also Porco Rosso that we've already covered, you know, the pigs were also not of the best quality either.

28:59Oti: Well, apart from Porco Rosso.

29:01KT: No. But he couldn't love himself. So that's why he had that curse on him, I believe anyway. Yeah. True. True. It's more of how pigs maybe displayed culturally in Japan.

29:11Oti: Well, religiously, pigs are displayed as sort of dirty creatures and you don't wanna really associate with them because in the bible, have like this sort of Jesus cast demons into the pigs because they're dirty or whatever the hell they will be explained it with. Uh-huh. And it's sort of like the thing you grew up thinking.

29:34KT: And thank you Oti for that tasting note.

29:34Oti: You're welcome.

29:34KT: Most welcome. The last theme that we have is whimsical slash fantasy.

29:44Oti: Yeah.

29:45KT: Yes? Yes or no? But, you know, that that's quite interesting because when, you know, when you watch Spirited Away, for example, you're like, oh, whimsical fantasy. Yes. Miyazaki does that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But sometimes,

29:58Oti: no. I was gonna say no, but I kind of have my

29:58KT: So where's the yes, mister?

29:58Oti: My yes is in the whole fact of the deer god.

30:10KT: Well, I guess, do you wanna call mythology fantasy?

30:16Oti: And I guess that's where I was going with it because I I didn't know whether or not to classify it as that or not. Like, Jediism is a religion. Like, is that is does this stop being fantasy?

30:27KT: But I get what you're saying because I was going to make a similar sort of point. There there are devices in a fantastical sort of nature that are used to convey key messages. Real world environmental messages.

30:42Oti: So I definitely understand what you're saying. Yeah, but I guess if we go more towards a traditional sort of explanation for this, it's more geared towards things like the forest spirits where it's sort of a mythological thing. We have in many, many sort of cultures, we have these stories. Mhmm.

31:02Oti: Like, Africa has heaps heaps heaps of that. In this, have the we have the Kodamas, which they're to sort of they kind of portray the health of the forest and Yeah. Like the tree spirits. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I I guess to some extent, but not as much as we've seen in Spirited Away.

31:22KT: Yeah. And we we talked about Kami in the Spirited Away episode. So if you wanna hear more about, like, Shinto sort of influences throughout Miyazaki works, we did cover a bit of that in this Spirited Away episode. But yeah, it was an interesting and you can see, the treatment of the Kodama obviously reflects how nature is being treated as well. So I definitely wanna do a bit more of a dive in regards to that. But those are the themes, those are the tasting notes in regards to Princess Mononoke.

31:56Oti: Yep.

31:58KT: Let's talk more generally about the film. I think we should start off with Ashitaka because he actually starts the film off. Mhmm. And then we can work our way on to San. Yeah. Ashitaka, he is a player without a prayer.

31:58Oti: What the fuck, man?

31:58KT: He really is. So he no. He had this gal. He had this sweetheart, Kaya. Even to the point where she gifts her most beloved jewel dagger to him. And then you later on see in the movie, he just casually gives it to San. Yeah. He really risked it all for that lady.

32:40KT: Yeah. Because he was, like, passed out. The first thing he said to her was, you're so beautiful.

32:47Oti: And they fell in love like they barely even spoke 10 words to each other by then. Like like,

32:53KT: Romeo and Juliet who? Crazy. He, you know, he saw he saw that wolf pussy, and he was not looking back.

32:53Oti: Oh, no, man. The fire? No. Jesus Christ, man. Wow.

32:53KT: Interesting. And I feel like his character is quite interesting to quite similar to Asbel in Nausicaa as well. But Ashitaka, he really seemed to be the sort of guy that you would want in your village, you know? Oh, yeah. He was there to protect you. He did what needed to be done and he could fuck you by dinner time all at the same time.

33:34Oti: Unless you cry.

33:37KT: You wonder. Right? Yeah. She's, like, sitting there, like, writing love letters to this guy.

33:43Oti: Ashitaka, I love you so much. I'll give you my only dagger, my precious possession.

33:48KT: She was probably praying to the deer god. That's why it got nowhere. Probably. I have qualms. The deer god is shit. Anyway, we'll get back to him later. But, yeah, he was definitely a guy, a good old guy that you wanted to have around. Yeah. And he he definitely ended up he ended up leaving his Jennifer Garner. But Ashitaka is a great guy. Clearly,

34:13Oti: he didn't care too much about Kaya because at the end of it all, he doesn't even go back to the village because he says that he's gonna he's going to leave with the iron ones there.

34:21KT: Yeah. And come visit Mononoke or whatever. When she's in heat. Yeah. Or when Ashitaka is feeling like a red warrior. A red wing, if you'll pardon the wing. But it was interesting. And then we we meet some characters along the way. Jiko Bo being one of them. He's like an old sort of samurai. We later find out that he's kind of like a double agent, and he's kinda working with Lady Eboshi as well. Yeah. He's kind of just self centered and But he was kind of likable.

34:54Oti: Not really. He's seeing the world around him collapse, but he's insisting on running with the head. It's fucking ridiculous. Why you gotta go with it? He's running up a mountain. Where you gotta go?

35:08KT: Especially in that verb, that precarious robe.

35:12Oti: Dear. Bloody hell. Ridiculous character.

35:15KT: Yeah. But I also feel like, you know, you could have a super evil person, but he kinda wasn't.

35:15Oti: No. He's worse than Eboshi.

35:15KT: Okay. He really Because he's a man.

35:15Oti: Not even. I'm little bit more gruff.

35:15KT: Because here's another fun fact for you, my love Oti. Miyazaki mentioned that he didn't wanna make Eboshi like the leader of the Ironworks to be a man because it was boring and it wasn't progressive enough. So he thought it would be a more interesting sort of dynamic to have a woman at the helm.

35:47Oti: A woman, a man, I think it would have still come out the same to me. And the thing is, he was all about himself unlike Eboshi, who Eboshi tried to uplift the community.

35:56KT: Yeah. But don't you think she also used people that were discarded by society because no one would look for them?

35:56Oti: No. I think he she gave them poppers.

35:56KT: But I feel like you're really seeing it through an Eboshi tinted glasses.

36:13Oti: Those are only glasses I bought me. But anyway,

36:16KT: seriously though abacus and embossing glasses merch.

36:21Oti: But seriously, the discarded people in society barely get a lookup. Mhmm. So when someone does something and empowers them, not only to be able to look after themselves but to, you know, give them purpose in life. That's that's something you can take away.

36:41KT: Oh, no. I'm not taking away from the fact that she helped them, but I'm saying what her intentions were. I don't necessarily think it was, you know, just out of the goodness of her own heart.

36:55Oti: Well, you could see that the lepers were really appreciative of Eboshi because of the life they led before that. Yeah. Because no one cared for them. Exactly. You could see the prosthesis regardless of what at least Eboshi thought in her mind or whatever. She was there when they knew. She was there when no one else was. Mhmm. I get that. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters to them regardless of whether her intentions were fully pure or not.

37:18KT: Speaking of pure, I don't know why we're not addressing the elephant in the room. Let's talk about us portrayed in a Miyazaki film for the first time as Kuroku and Toki. As the useless husband

37:35Oti: and the rambunctious wife. So as the rambunctious wife.

37:40KT: Yes. How did you feel?

37:44Oti: Wow. She she she took the reins when Eboshi was She not was a leader. Oh, yes. You could definitely see that that sort of effect that Eboshi has had on everyone. Yeah. And she was there to lead the community when Eboshi was was not there. She gave commands to men, women, and children alike.

38:04KT: You know, there's actually no children in this village if you know us.

38:04Oti: I said children, I was like, no.

38:04KT: No. But that's that's good because it's a fun fact and this does tackle more, you know, know, more heavier sort of subject matter. Well, another fun fact for you Oti, some extra seasoning on your degustation menu. Miyazaki noted that he didn't want to have kids at least visible in the town because he didn't wanna show as if they were in the settling phase of a town. Oh.

38:39KT: So, you know, you can assume that kids were there because, you know, you and me, Oti, we're nothing but mammals. Yep.

38:49Oti: It doesn't go like that, but I get your point.

38:53KT: Do it then. I didn't know you had the Bollywood theme, wasn't you? Well, at least we're never gonna get copyrighted because I don't I don't know what fucking kids bop that shit was. That dried up all the children you had in your sack. Are you quite done, sir? Why are you bopping your head then? I was just regretting all of the yazz. They call it long suffering for a reason, mate. But it it was an interesting sort of thing. But this sort of love campaign you have for Lady Eboshi,

39:38KT: I'm not really targeting it because we have a lot to get through. But I really think it was a bit too simplistic to just say, oh, okay. I'm a good person now.

39:45Oti: Not that she's a good person now. It's just more so that people have different layers to them.

39:52KT: Yeah. But she literally took all off her bad layers. She didn't understand.

39:58Oti: There's a difference between ignorance and and just naive and not wanting to learn more.

39:58KT: Okay. That felt very pointed. So let's move on.

40:10KT: So we've we've talked a bit about the humans. Right? We have we have Ashitaka's village and we actually, this is a good point. I wanna mention this. So we have the oracle at the start of the film in the opening scene where she pays her respects to the boar even though the boar has pretty much threatened them and said, I'm gonna cause fucking shit and you're gonna feel all of the pain that I'm feeling. Yeah. Can I just say me? Hashtag same. I'm a vengeful motherfucker. If I'm dying suffering, so will you. Right?

40:45KT: But we have the Oracle and she's saying, please forgive us, pass peacefully, let us be on our way. Right? So that was quite a beautiful message that you had at the start of the film and it flows on quite well into it. Know, like I said, we've covered the humans, we've talked about the Ironworks, we've talked a bit about the samurai. It's also the only film that Miyazaki has set in feudal Japan as well, which was quite interesting. He wanted to make sure that Ashitaka

41:13KT: wasn't on a horse because he didn't want people to think that he was a samurai. Oh. So that's how we got Yakul. Mhmm. And then we also talked about the lepers. We talked about the women as well in Ironworks. I wanna spend some time talking about the animals. I really don't you know, because in Spirited Away, we talked about when did the fantasy start of like Chihiro dreaming that this was happening. I'm really not interested personally

41:43KT: in the fantasy and when it's real and when it's not. To be perfectly honest, I feel like I just I dipped my toe in and it felt great. So I remained in that space. So let's stay there. Yeah. Yeah. So we have a hierarchy of different sort of animals and spirits as well. So I definitely want to cover them. The three main groups of animals/spirits that we have are the apes. I kind of regard them more spirits because they seemed more like personages as opposed to like solid creatures.

42:24Oti: Yeah.

42:25KT: We also have Moro and the Wolfpack. And we also have the boars which is headed by Okkoto.

42:32Oti: Yeah.

42:34KT: So do you wanna start off with the apes? Let's start off with the apes. I felt like it was quite interesting and it might also have been deliberate learnedness. But when you talk about apes and I'm not sure what your Christian science classes told you, but in regards to evolution, if you think about apes, it is the more primitive, the more sort of Genesis in regards to existence. And that's how I partook in regards to how they were feeling and how they wanted to respond to the humans. Yep.

43:11KT: You know, you you have them throwing rocks, rocks, which I thought was like really funny, like they were throwing rocks towards Moro and towards specifically because Ashitaka was there and he was a human, right? So they were like throwing rocks in their sort of general direction. And they were speaking very simply, they were speaking very primitively and they said, we plant trees, humans destroy them. We eat the humans, we grow stronger, we kill the humans. Right? And it was a very fundamental

43:46KT: pragmatic sort of approach. Yeah. It's like we're here minding our business trying to build our nature and they're fucking it all up. So yeah, we're going to eat you and fuck you up. True. So it is a very primitive sort of like, yeah, let's go in. Let's do it. Right? But you could also see that they lost a lot of power that they possibly might have had in a previous sort of life. Yeah.

44:11Oti: It seems like they've been through a ringer. You know? Yeah. They're clearly disillusioned to the point where they think the only logical step for them is to try and get some sort of strength from the human that's by eating them. Yeah. So it's it's it's kind of like I felt sorry for them. Yeah. They're trying to maintain the forest and trying to plant trees. I think they're sort of like the only ones who are doing that. Yeah. They're actually trying. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think Moro and

44:42Oti: the boys are doing anything about planting trees.

44:45KT: And that that's actually addressed at least in passing when Ashitaka first comes to the Ironworks, they talked about how the animals weren't happy that they were clearing out the forests. Right? So it was nice. You had some direct sort of correlations in regards to deforestation, but then you also had offhanded comments that had major sort of impacts, especially in regards to the apes. Oh, for sure. They were really just trying their best. Right? And it's like they came to a point where it's like, you know, man eat man or ape eat man

45:20KT: sort of thing. So they were just trying to do their best really. Yeah. True. Let's focus on the boars a little bit. Like we mentioned in the tasting notes or the themes, pigs is a fun little thing that we have with Miyazaki films. And Okkoto, he's not bad. He's dumb. And is that worse?

45:42Oti: I think it's worse, especially when you're in leadership position.

45:44KT: But he's not even dumb either.

45:47Oti: Nah. He's dumb.

45:49KT: I think he was just focused to his own detriment. To be able to wield that much power, you can't be that dumb, surely.

46:00Oti: I think with him, it's just my matter of brute force that made him lead the pack. And the fact that he knew very well that if he held some sort of resentment and became vengeful at the end or towards when he's dying, he'll become this vengeful vengeful spirit.

46:17Oti: Didn't negate for shit.

46:17KT: Yeah. But when you get treated so badly for so long, is it really is it really that much of a surprise when you go on a bloody path of rampage?

46:30Oti: And I guess that's that's the point of it all because the deer god kind of said that at the end of it all, he'll decide whether you live or die. And I guess that's kind of the point of we see Moro and Okkoto towards the end. And from then on, could just tell they're not leaving.

46:44KT: Well, they're too set in their own ways and even if they were to live, they wouldn't be able to live in a way that would be conducive to peace. True. And that was quite clear. It was sad that it had to end that way. But like you said, with Moro and Okkoto, they just couldn't live in a new world because there was too much pain. They had suffered too much to live in peace that was definitely earned but not necessarily

47:17KT: it was the wrong time. You know, they had suffered way too much to be able to enjoy or to be able to exist in that sort of peace. Yeah. And

47:26Oti: When the humans are wearing these glasses of the boars.

47:30KT: Oh, man. Okay. I take it back. He is dumb then. He's dumb. He thought there was spirits. Well, that's that's very important because what he thought was more important than what was real. Yeah. And that was his problem. Yeah. He he had that hatred. Right? And let's come to that in a second. But he had that hatred, he had a goal and he didn't care how he got there. And let's talk let's talk about that for a second because Moro, I think is a good way to end because we'll also tie in San as

48:09KT: well. But when we talk about the spell, you know, with Porco Rosso, even with Sen, Chihiro in Spirited Away, and even upcoming with Howl's Moving Castle. You know, spells, if you want to have an extended sort of Reference Degustation theme pack. You can also add spells into there as well because that's also prevalent in this film as well. Yeah. And, you know, yes, you have a visual because that really helps to convey that. Right? You have a visual of those like, you know, hentai baby worms coming all over you.

48:54KT: Is that not what it was? Because that would make the film a lot less interesting for me.

48:59Oti: You just give the you just made the movie written army.

49:03KT: I will get my fucking writer's credit as KT Miyazaki. He's a strange kid that he refuses to acknowledge at his fourth Hokage. I will get my writer's credit on all Miyazaki films, at least the ones featured in the Reference Degustation and also in Naruto. I'll see you in the ring, brother. Okay, third Hokage.

49:28Oti: You're the sixth Hokage.

49:28KT: Oh, Kakashi?

49:28Oti: Yeah. Oh, bloody hell. Might as well be the third then.

49:37KT: Give Oti and I a chance to pull all of our glasses up because I feel like we were being very otaku nerds right now. Listen to our Naruto episode and also our anime special with Anime Nerd and Savage Otaku. Mhmm. Look at us referencing on our Reference Degustation. Who'da thunk it?

49:58Oti: Not Okkoto.

49:59KT: So let's go back to the skins. I think it made sense though because sometimes, you know, when you have characters that are dumb just to drive the plot along, I think it made sense to his character that he just wanted to believe it because he wanted to take his brothers and sisters to go and get healed by the deer god. Yeah. So it was a noble intention.

50:22KT: Does that not have any sort of bearing or not?

50:22Oti: No. Dumb is dumb, mate. It doesn't matter whether your intentions was in the right place or not. At the end of it, if it's not intelligent then

50:34KT: So why why do you ever talk on this podcast? Otikoto?

50:34Oti: No, mate.

50:39Oti: I've got some Jerome blood flowing in here.

50:43KT: Leave Quentin alone. I wonder do you think we'll cover a Quentin Tarantino film this year?

50:51Oti: I don't know. Thanks Jerome.

50:54KT: Appreciate it. Oh, but wow. I really enjoyed it and we didn't really get into our first impressions because we've kind of already done it on the other two episodes. But I do just wanna take some time to say that, you know, I've always been that kid that just absolutely loved dogs. I think developmentally, I resonate more with dogs than I do with humans. Like, I would rather spend time with our dog than with Oti, but don't tell him. He's the Okkoto of this household.

51:32Oti: No. You just need to tell our dog about that. Wow.

51:37KT: Our dog is the well, he's not even he's a Kazekage. Again, listen to our Naruto episode. But it was very it was very interesting. And as someone that really loves dogs, I was very disappointed that once we got a greyhound, I couldn't, you know, ride through the city on our dog like Princess Mononoke. Yeah. But it's quite it is quite a beautiful film. I really love Princess Mononoke and it's definitely a film that will stick with me. It is something that I will continue to watch. It did become a bit too resolute.

52:18KT: Miyazaki made it clear that he didn't wanna end just on the war and then it happened and then war is banned. So we did see a bit more of the ending and it became more of a like a happy everly ever after sort of theme to it. Neil Gaiman mentioned that he would have made it more resolute in the fact that San and also Ashitaka would get medals.

52:45Oti: Medals are married.

52:47KT: What? And they would skip off into the sunset and they would throw couscous.

52:52Oti: Wow.

52:54KT: That sort of wedding. It's been a while it's been a while since we referenced Key and Peele. So there's a Key and Peele reference for you. We will reserve you tickets at the pony show.

53:07Oti: Oh, for sure. And I'd like us to talk about the deer god for a bit.

53:07KT: Yes. Thank you. Just for a little bit? Not a lot, Oti girl.

53:07Oti: Just a little bit. Because I think he is crap.

53:19KT: Oh, okay, PG Oti.

53:21Oti: Oh, there's no two ways about it. He sees the guy has all the powers in the world.

53:27KT: Yes. Somehow. Somehow he's the most powerful thing, but he does fucking nothing. And we love you guys. And again, any sort of real talks, hell Satan about religion, we won't cover on our main sort of podcast, but he really felt like a Christian God to me. He walked in water. He is omniscient. He is everything. Yet somehow, when things happen, he's not that.

53:54Oti: He's not there. Takes him being shot in the fucking head to lift a finger.

54:02KT: But even then, it was the humans that saved him and brought his head back.

54:08Oti: Yeah. He can't even catch two fat guys running up a hill.

54:13KT: Yeah. And we knew he was fat because it was quite evident with the upskirt. Man, Jiko Bo had way more upskirts than Nausicaa, and that's saying something. But the deer god, I found the deer god to be very problematic. And again, if you guys are religious on all on a different extent, you're spiritual, then no offense to you guys. But this film thematically made me wonder why people would believe in a deer god or something similar because it's this omniscient sort of power but he did fucking nothing.

54:52KT: You know, you had Okkoto and you also had Moro. They were both trying to help. The apes were trying to help themselves. All the while, the deer god was doing bum fuck wherever with bum fuck who? Ever so often, you'd spot him just grazing and walking past. Like, I feel like Harry Potter's Patronus did way more than this deer god.

55:15Oti: Mate, he did more for Ashitaka in that movie than he did for the entire

55:18KT: Yeah. For healing him. Right? Yeah. It's just man. It's yeah. It was a problem. It was definitely a problem. I I I did kind of like you know, if I can take all of my cynical mortal coils off, that's a Hamlet reference, you're so welcome. I'm just thinking of Kenneth Branagh, stop pretending. I do and we all think about Kenneth Branagh. Not necessarily the Hercule Poirot, Kenneth Branagh, but Overshot any looking at his buzz port.

55:46Oti: Yeah.

55:52KT: Was that was a bit much. Let us know if you want us to cover Murder on the Orient Express because we've also read the book because we're very learned. And Oti is the 2017 Mbouc.

56:07Oti: If the author was such a stupid character, man, Mbouc is

56:07KT: Is Okkoto?

56:07Oti: Okkoto of this movie.

56:16KT: We're such nerds. Oh, dear. You know, people are touching each other while we're just talking about books.

56:16Oti: Oh, yeah. Gotta read Agatha Christie, mate.

56:16KT: Right? 10 little sailors, mind you. Yeah. Yeah. But the the deer god, I really found to be problem. He be he was really the he wasn't necessarily the catalyst, but he was really the pinnacle that people were working towards pilgrimage, if you will. And he really failed to deliver, not just in spiritual sort of nature, but just from a story point of view. But

56:52KT: again, if I can rattle off my cynical mortal coils, which is where I was going Oti before he got jealous of Kenneth Branagh. I did enjoy the ending, you know, it wasn't the most sophisticated, but you know, they were talking about the deer god has died and has chosen for you to live, but the deer god lives on because he is life and death. So I appreciated that in the sense that it tied the film together from, you know, human debate to not necessarily so. I think it was quite full development on humans.

57:33Oti: True. Agreed. Agreed 100% on that.

57:36KT: Let's finish off with San because again, this is Princess Mononoke or Mononoke Hime. I really liked it. She was a badass bitch that mind her own business. You know, she needs to ride that dick every once and so often, but that's all men are good for really. Right, ladies?

57:57Oti: Yeah. She she has no interest in humans. She in fact says that she hates humans and she could never forgive them and that's why she'd return to the forest with the wolves. And I guess to a point they've suffered for such a long time, it's understandable. But it'll reach a point I think she would need to realize that, bitch, you're human.

58:18KT: No. She knows she's a human but but her hatred for human isn't enough for her to want to live amongst them. We can all be Jane Goodall. Okay? And live amongst the gorillas. At least that's my vision. If this podcast thing doesn't work out, I've got some hippos in Naivasha.

58:40Oti: Oh, yeah. You do.

58:43KT: Naivasha Mononoke.

58:46Oti: You're just sweeping in a bloody dirty river with the hippos,

58:51KT: Oti is my dirty river. If you if you're looking for some travel notes, Naivasha is a great place for hippos. Right, Oti? Mhmm. And even if I'm not there, you'll find some other hippos there.

59:02Oti: Yeah. And you could even pitch your tat snacks to the hippos. Yeah. Which is what you used to do. Right? Oh, yeah. Indeed.

59:09KT: Indeed as well. If you guys are interested in an Oti Miyazaki joint, let us let us know. Thank you so much, friends and lovers. Mononoke Hime has always been a film that I've really just held tight to myself. You know, we talked about it in the Porco Rosso episode, Miyazaki is full on escapism. It's really a world that will sweep you away. And you can also introduce, you know, some heavier themes as well that doesn't have precocious children and you can still find enjoyment in it. Oh yeah, indeed. And that's where I feel Miyazaki

59:52KT: excels and continues to excel. There's a reason why Mononoke was able to relate to so many. There's a reason why it's one of the most successful animated films in Japan. And for a long time, it was the highest grossing film in Japan. Mhmm. There's a reason why. And, you know, the whole episode is why. We strongly encourage you to continue to immerse yourself in the immortalized words of Bong Joon Ho. Don't let that one inch get in your way. Embrace it. Enjoy it. As Doctor. Otto would say in Spartacus,

60:32KT: you know, you wanna love it, you wanna fuck it, and it's a good old time, guys. So thank you so much guys for listening to third course in our Reference Degustation. We are chugging along, and we are moving towards our fiftieth episode Oti. Yeah. So it's very exciting. We are two episodes away from our fiftieth episode just in time for our one year of podcasting, which is very exciting. Again, thank you so much for tuning in in another week in the For Reference household. Usually, we have our segment called For Your Reference.

61:07KT: But, again, this is a degustation menu, so the references are as per the mail. Mhmm. No allergy requests accepted. Unless you're not ready to be a red wing, we allow you to be comfortable with that. Speaking of being comfortable, on Twitter and Instagram, we are ForYourRefPod. You can write us an email at hello@fyrpodcast.com. We wanna thank you guys so much for all of the lovely ratings and reviews on Apple Podcast. If you would like to, contribute to that, we would love you so much. And we also have a Patreon. See

61:43KT: you. Bye.