Predestination – When the love fizzles (with History of Aotearoa)

Full transcript of Predestination – When the love fizzles (with History of Aotearoa).

0:00KT: Guys, welcome back to For Your Reference. I hope you're hydrated because this episode is a doozy. For this week's Quid Pro-Mo, we have our friend, Thomas, from land of the long white cloud. Take it away.

0:09Clip: And good day. My name is Thomas, and I am the bloke behind the History of Aotearoa New Zealand podcast. You're about to hear me talk a bunch of shit with your favorite Aussies, but I also talk a lot about the history of the land over the ditch. For us at Hans, time isn't nonlinear. That's a joke you'll get later on.

0:33Clip: We move chronologically from before the arrival of humans to how the first inhabitants, tangata whenua, Maori, survived in their new home and are currently talking about pre European Maori culture, like carving, societal structure, and the haka. In the future, Europeans will arrive, changing the face of the land and people forever. Te Reo Maori, the Maori language, also features heavily, so you'll be able to learn some cool new words. History doesn't have to be kings, battles, and dates. It can be so much more.

1:05Clip: It's a story that is a part of who we are. So if you want to come along and go on an adventure with us, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts or historyaotearoa.com. Aotearoa is spelled A O T E A R O A. For now though, KT and Oti, hit the music.

1:49KT: Hey, friends and lovers. Welcome back to For Your Reference. You've got your host, KT and Oti. And we've also got another friend from across the pond. Would you like to introduce yourself?

2:02Thomas: Sure. My name is Thomas, and I am the host. Well, I say host. I'm the everything behind the History of Aotearoa New Zealand podcast. But in my free time, I also watch movies, which is why I'm here to talk about a movie.

2:18KT: Perfect. And Thomas and I are actually really good friends slash nemesis, especially on Twitter. But you are in the For Your Reference household today, sir. And if you try and tell me anything is inaccurate, I will fucking pull rank on you.

2:36Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No. I know I've gotta behave myself, but I can't I can't guarantee it, to be honest.

2:41KT: Well, you're in the right place because Oti doesn't listen to me either. And I I swear I swear to god, if you guys gang up on me, we are going to fight. I'm just gonna say that's absolutely what's gonna happen.

2:55Thomas: Yeah. No no if, ands, or buts about it.

2:59KT: Well, let's get into it. Today, we are covering the 2014 Spierig Brothers film Predestination. The Spierig Brothers previously did Daybreakers, if anyone has seen that just to be familiar and have a little tasting of their work. It's quite interesting. On IMDb, even on Wikipedia, it was hard to see what the budget was. But according to Wikipedia, they had Screen Australia. This is an Australian film. Hey. Hell hey, girl. Hey. This is an Australian film, and Screen Australia allocated a budget for three films, including Predestination, to the amount of $5,000,000.

3:40KT: Oh. So it's pretty ambiguous how much was spent on this film. And the box office gross worldwide, apparently, was 4,800,000. Having seen this film, I'm very disappointed. We will talk about it, but it's a great film, guys. Let's quickly capture off the cast. We've got our best friend, our Boyhood best friend. You're welcome, guys. Ethan Hawke playing the barkeep. We have Sarah Snook, an Australian actress pay playing the unmarried mother, and we also have Noah Taylor playing Mister Robertson. I actually really liked him, and we'll talk about the characters as we go along.

4:24KT: Since we're best friends, I'm gonna call you Tom.

4:24Thomas: Yep.

4:24KT: Or even Hans, if you're nasty.

4:24Thomas: Hans. That makes me sound German.

4:24KT: Oh, okay. So so maybe not. We are not going to tackle those intricacies today.

4:38Thomas: It's a bit too much for today. Yeah.

4:41KT: We have enough mind fucking today, so we're not going to go through that. Before we dive into first impressions, credit to Tom because he actually introduced this film to us, and he also introduced himself onto this episode as well. Yeah.

4:58Thomas: I I I pestered you on Twitter for a while about this one particular movie.

4:58KT: Wow. How long were you holding on to that in your pocket?

4:58Thomas: Tick. Yeah. Yeah. No. The reason for that is because I used to work at a DVD store. Oh. And for those of you who are less than the age of about 20 years old, that's when we used to go out and and hire DVDs from a shop and get a pictures

5:28Thomas: to prove that you went out. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You know? And you had to put it into a into a into a machine, and it played the movie. You didn't have none of this get it on YouTube for $6 shit. You know? You couldn't do that. You know? You couldn't just you didn't have the Netflix back then. So well, actually, we did because this was probably only about six years So

5:49KT: I thought you were a historical guest. What's going on? Yeah.

5:53KT: You're declining, Tom.

5:53Thomas: Yeah. So that this movie came out at the time I was working at this DVD store. And I picked it up, had a look at it, and thought, oh, fuck it. It looks alright. You know, I've got nothing else to do tonight. Mhmm. Took it home, watched it with my flatmate, got to the end of it and went, fuck. And I've recommended it to numerous people over the years, both in that job and since. And not one single person has ever said they didn't like it.

6:25Thomas: The the main thing I told people about this movie is get if you get halfway through and you're not into it Mhmm. Keep going. Because the first half of it is quite slow. But once you get towards the end, you realize why it's quite slow at the start. There is a point to that. You know, it's a lot of, like, setup, and then the payoff is what you're in it for, you know, kinda towards the probably second half last quarter in the movie.

6:50Thomas: Mhmm. And so that's why I told a lot of people when I used to work at this DVD shop. And I had numerous people come back and I'd go, what do you think? And they said bloody loved it. It was it was fantastic. So that's why I I like to recommend this film because it's very not well known. It's quite out there as we will find as we will tell. And, yeah, it's it's just such a different movie to other movies that I've watched,

7:15Thomas: and that what probably I think most people have watched. Mhmm. So, yeah, that's kind of the the backstory of why I really pushed this one over perhaps any other

7:23KT: Old old hogs?

7:26Thomas: Yeah. Wild Hogs. Yeah. Well,

7:29KT: old hogs is also an accurate description.

7:32Thomas: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That is true. I do like I do like Wild Hogs a lot. I've actually got that on DVD because when I got when I got I I was let go from that job because it closed down, unsurprisingly. And I bought the Wild Hogs copy that they had. So I've actually got it somewhere in my house, that that that movie.

7:53KT: Just between you and I, Tom, because we do run a TV show and movie podcast, there are some things that you don't openly admit.

8:01Thomas: No. I'm okay. I I I do like to say that it is my guilty pleasure, but I don't I'm not guilty. I don't I I'm okay to be out there and say, I like Wild Hogs. I like Tron: Legacy. That's also another film that I really like as well that a lot of people don't. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm happy to say that. I'm happy to put myself out there. You know, it it's it's fine. No. It's 2019. It's a progressive world. We can accept people that like Wild Hogs.

8:26KT: And you can also accept people that don't care for Star Wars, but we're not gonna get into that today. I just wanna I just wanna

8:26Thomas: We're gonna need a lot longer than an hour if we're gonna do that.

8:26KT: There there are many podcasts that cover Star Wars. Probably go and check them out because I don't know if we'll ever cover that. But let's go back to Predestination. This is a minefield of a film. And we love you guys. Thanks for listening. We have a whole catalog of very popular

8:57KT: movies. Like, we've even got Titanic. And who hasn't watched Titanic? Right? Probably go and check out okay.

9:04Thomas: Look at you. I listened to the episode, though. It was good. I liked it.

9:08KT: We're all talking about real Yeah. But, yeah, just this we would be doing you a disservice, and you'll be doing yourself a disservice if you continue to listen to this episode because Absolutely. This film is primo. It's Delicioso. And we don't wanna spoil this for anyone, and we might accidentally start to go into spoilers. So I just wanna say that from the onset. We have a whole lot of other episodes to listen to. Tom has a great podcast. If you're not really familiar or you're not, like, situated

9:45KT: near New Zealand and you don't really have a reference for Aotearoa, you should definitely check out his podcast. But, yeah, we've

9:45Thomas: good crack, by the way Yeah. At Aotearoa.

9:45KT: I've tried to very Yeah. Harlan's lips are quaking when she says that. No. It's because I say it. No. I say it like I say it like a white person. Like, Aotearoa.

10:06KT: That's how Tongyeon say it. Come and fight me.

10:06Thomas: Yeah. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. I've heard some very wild bastardizations of it, which is no fault with their own because they're usually Americans.

10:17KT: Oh. But, yeah, I've heard some very interesting pronunciations. Those are the bulk of our listeners. And I think Oti, in one of our other episodes, didn't realize that Americans say niche. I think he

10:27Thomas: That that really grinds my finger. That's not okay. He verbally said listeners, but that's not okay. It's niche. That's what it is. It it's it's not inches. It's meters.

10:39KT: Get over it. Get on to the metric system, guys. Fucking hell. Jeez. We love you American listeners, though, so please come back. And, actually, if you guys are American and you have seen this film, I would love to know because even we we'll come we'll go into first impressions, but we didn't even know about this film. But yes. So please turn away. We'll the links in the show notes for Tom's podcast, and, obviously, check out ours. But let's let's get nasty. Let's get deep. Let's get into it. First

11:13KT: impressions, Oti, do you wanna mention anything? Have you seen Ethan Hawke in any other films?

11:19Oti: I've seen him in quite a few films, but I can't remember them out of the top of my head. I think the last thing I saw him in was Boyhood.

11:26KT: And even that was that was his prime. Right?

11:30Oti: I think he hit his prime quite earlier than that. I think

11:30KT: That's what I'm saying.

11:30Oti: Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it's just off off the top of my head, I can't think of any other movies he's been in, but I think Gattaca.

11:43KT: Yeah. That's the other big one. Yeah. Did you understand that with the New Zealand accent, Oti, or not?

11:43Oti: Yes. I did.

11:43KT: Okay. I'm just checking. There were many years of both of us not understanding each other, hence your phrase or mine.

11:43Oti: Oh, I see.

11:43KT: And Oti's got a do you do you wanna sample your Australian accent on this episode or no?

11:43Oti: I don't want Australian accent is quite spot on, you know.

11:43KT: We'll save it for another epi. Okay.

12:11KT: I don't know if saving is the right word. Let's continue. Anything else you wanna mention about we will talk about the themes and the cinematography and the score. Is there anything else you wanted to mention, like, going into it? Did you have any inkling? Did you try to learn more about it before we watched it?

12:11Oti: No. But I I think when I saw the poster, I just assumed it will be an action movie.

12:35Oti: And then halfway through, I didn't understand what was going on. I was like, what is this? But we you know, like like Tom said earlier, we just stuck on and continue watching it. And by the end of it, we were like we didn't believe what we just watched. Uh-huh. And I think we've made several attempts to try and rewatch sections of it again and just Yeah. Yeah. Trying to encaps understand everything that happened because we felt like well, I felt at least like I missed something.

13:04Oti: I wanted to get as much out of it that I could possibly can. So it was really great. So essentially, were just trying to explain the mystery boner that you had throughout the film.

13:17KT: For me. For me. For me. For me. So I didn't have any inkling about this film. I didn't even know that Sarah was an Australian actress. Because it was Ethan Hawke, I didn't realize it was Australian until I did a quick, like, search just so we could make sure we could find the right film. I also really like Ethan Hawke. I don't think I've really seen him in anything aside from Boyhood

13:39KT: as well. He has obviously been in a lot of films, and I really like him. He's not very underrated actor, like, a lot of the time. He's very accommodating. I think that is a and it's not in a pushover sort of way. He's very generous with his screen time. People might mistake him for Kevin Bacon.

13:56Oti: What?

13:56KT: They look very similar to the actual how they say that. You just assume,

14:04KT: Kevin Bacon, but it's Ethan Hawke. As our as our as our residential lacking in melanin, Tom, do you agree with that statement?

14:12Thomas: I I have olive skin. It's not that bad. I don't see I I feel like I would be able to tell the difference if you put them side by side.

14:18KT: Tell the difference side by side, but in passing, you'd you'd probably assume it's But Tom Hardy and Logan Marshall-Green look more similar.

14:32Oti: Yeah.

14:34KT: Listen to our Upgrade episode, guys. That's what the silence was for, to fill in that space. But, yes, I just wanted to give some accolades to Ethan Hawke because I really feel like he's a great actor. I feel like when people mention people that like, actors that are capable, he should he should be on the list, definitely. I don't know if he gets overlooked, but I feel like he does quite well. And it seems like he tries to

15:02KT: he he really sees this as a vocation, right, as an actual profession. And he he purposefully tries to choose films that are quite different. I don't really know if he's a he doesn't seem like a blockbuster sort of actor. So I just wanted to give some accolades there.

15:11Oti: Yeah. Like, he's still like, all the movies that he's been in, I find aren't big blockbuster films, but they're always very interesting, like Gattaca and Boyhood, which took, like, twelve years to film. So yeah. So I find he's never in those huge films. But, yeah, every film he's in, it's always something a bit different. You can trust Predestination. Him.

15:39KT: Yeah. You you can trust him. Like, if you see that he's in the cast, you can essentially trust like, Steven Yeun as well because we fucking love Steven Yeun. He's an indicator actor, if you wanna put it that way. Totally. In regards to Boyhood, we didn't necessarily enjoy it, and I don't know if we have enough energy to muster to cover that as an actual episode. But in regards to Boyhood, I felt like they leaned very hard on that gimmick

16:08KT: that they you know, like, that was a driving force why people said it was good, but we're not going to get into that today. Is there anything else about first impressions you guys wanted to talk about before we talk about the film generally?

16:21Thomas: I yeah. I don't know. I think the only thing for me was, yeah, like, I as I said, I didn't I went into this, like, initially, like, guys, like, when I first saw the movie was I didn't know anything about it. Mhmm. I just picked it up, went, bugger, it looks alright. And then watched it and thought it was great, spent the next two hours chatting to my flatmate about it.

16:42Thomas: So yeah. So I think yeah. Like, as you said, like, with the sort of spoiler warning at the start, you know, it it's one that you have to see knowing basically nothing. Yeah. And that really makes it a lot better. But, yeah, just a very strange, interesting film, yeah, overall.

16:59KT: I was a bit different to the both of you in regards to, you know, you just have to get through it. I was actually enjoying it. From a narrative point of view, it was quite an interesting dynamic to have between Ethan Hawke's character, which they credit as a barkeep, and also John at the time in the bar. Right? I actually felt that was quite fascinating. There was a, you know, a nagging part of me in the back of my head being like,

17:26KT: okay. So why is this going to blow my pants off? You know what I mean? Like, I'm present in the moment, and I'm really enjoying the dialogue and the way the story is being set out, But I also don't understand how this is going to blow my mind.

17:26Thomas: Yeah. Which I should I should say was that was my doing.

17:42Thomas: I went around and said this was one of the like, such an amazing film. It's gonna knock your socks off. I really hyped this up. But I feel the same way. Partially because of me, I think.

17:54KT: Now that now that we've seen it, I will I will hold the banner with you, Tom, because I will say the exact same thing. If people are patient enough to allow a story to resonate within you, then this will blow your fucking socks off.

17:54Thomas: Yeah. And I the the the reason I tell people, you know, to keep with it even if you don't

18:13Thomas: you know, even if you get halfway through and you're not into it is because that's exactly what happened to me. As I got halfway through it and went, this is something really this is getting a bit slow, like, what the fuck's going on here? Like, you know, I was confused. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand it. It was kinda boring. And then, yeah, second half of the film, woah.

18:31Thomas: So yeah. The reason I tell people to do that is because I was exactly the same. Like, I I I know why people do that is because I I did that as well.

18:31KT: Yeah. And I'm usually one of those people where because literally,

18:43KT: it all started to crescendo in the last 20. Right? That's where all of the payoff for the story that was being set out for the first hour and a bit actually starts to happen within that last twenty minutes. And I'm usually that person that's throwing everything at the screen when that happens. Like, you can't fucking do that to me. That's not right. That's not how you write a film in my nonlearned

19:11KT: experience. You know what I mean? Like, you can't do that, and that doesn't become the be all and end all. For me, a twist should be a nice little thank you for watching, but it shouldn't be the foundational impression that I have. I feel like that that this gets away with it a bit more because there are multiple twists. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. It wasn't like I didn't feel like this film was that because exactly like you're saying, Tom, I because I actually uncovered to to my to my happiness,

19:42KT: I actually unpacked a lot of the twists before it even happened. Yeah. Right?

19:50Thomas: I got to that point towards the end where the kind of last final twist happens. I'm like, I bet I bet it's this. I bet like, you've you've you've fooled me once. Shame on me. Whatever it is. You know, the last one, I'm like, I'm not you you're not getting me again. You're not getting me again. And I was right in the end. But yeah. Like, yeah, you do sort of get to that point where you start, like, just guessing them.

20:09KT: Yeah. Because it it got to it got to a point where I'm like, oh, you know, sitting on my throne of being able to guess shit. And I'm like, oh, I'm good. I'm happy like, I'm having my best life. And then the last thing happened, and it just blew me wide open. And I love that. I love that. And even, you know, trying to brush up for this episode, I watched the first twenty minutes, and literally, everything was laid out in the film. And that's what I love because

20:39KT: I I love feeling like an idiot. Oti, don't listen to this. I love feeling like an idiot when the pieces are presented to me. Don't, like, don't give a twist to me because you're withholding information from the film. But, oh, this was delicious. It satiated me in every aspect ever possible in history. I fucking love this film.

21:02Thomas: Yeah. It's yeah. Like like the when I watched it again for this, which had been some time since I saw it, you know, I still remembered everything. But I could you you see a lot more like, you always say that about movies. You see a lot more when you watch it again. Mhmm. But this one in particular,

21:19Thomas: as you say, it's it's all laid out in front of you. It's just that you don't notice it the first time around because you don't know what you're looking for. Yeah. And then the second time around, you know everything. Mhmm. And so when you watch it again, oh, you know, there's that or there's that and there's this and, you know, and that sort of thing. I and more so than many other films. So it's yeah.

21:37Thomas: As of yeah. As I've already said, it's such a weird and kinda interesting film. It does require a couple of watches just to kinda figure it out and and that kinda thing. So yeah.

21:44Oti: And and I guess I'm kind of different from both of you because I like being led. I don't like guessing because

21:44KT: You do.

21:53KT: Yeah. You do.

21:56Oti: No. Take me through to Johnny because KT is always adamant when trying to guess the plot of the movie ten minutes in. I was like, relax. Calm down. We'll get there. But yeah. By the end by the time KT was saying her suggestions and what she thought was happening, I was like, what? What's going on? What's going on? It's it's false. But the second time of watching it, it just wow. It just blew my mind. It's amazing.

22:22Oti: And the fact that it's gotten, like, 7.4 on IMDb, that's ridiculous. Those people must have not understood the movie.

22:22Thomas: Yeah. I I get the feeling I mean, on the one hand, I know why that is because

22:33Thomas: it's it's it's fucking weird. Right? We'll get we'll get into that later on why it's probably one of the most fucking weird films probably ever. But I think it's also because it suffers from a lot of things that a lot of other sci fi films suffer from as well, is that people just you know, sci fi isn't a terribly popular genre unless it's like Star Wars. Right? You know, that kind of thinking man sci fi, if you wanna put it that way

23:00Thomas: Mhmm. Don't tend to be terribly popular. So they don't as far as I can tell, they don't seem to get great reviews and people don't, yeah, tend to like them as much because they I guess they yeah. They just have to think a bit too hard, which is not to say people are dumb. But

23:16KT: but,

23:17Thomas: you know, yeah, sci fi, I think, suffers from that a lot more than some other genres. And, yeah, it definitely deserves a higher rating on IMDb other than, yeah, 7.4.

23:27KT: Yeah. And that's that's exactly why on at least up until now, we don't really cover ratings because we we wanna have a as more of a discussion. And most of the time, you know, the ratings are really up to you. Right? That's the whole point. And then they amalgamate them together. Quick maths, guys. But, you know, in regards to that, sci fi is kind of the same as horror movies. It can be rated a six and still be decent to watch. So I guess in that sort of sense,

23:59KT: sometimes just let yourself go on an adventure if you don't know where it's going to go.

24:04KT: Because

24:06KT: the best boners are the mystery boners, guys. Why am I talking about dicks? You you guys are the owners of the dicks, and I'm just talking about it. Because it's just a normal thing. You know? You got a wang. It's just there.

24:19Thomas: You know? You're not you don't need to talk about it. We all know it's there. You know? And it's also because I got the biggest one.

24:25KT: Yeah. But going back to this film, I love how we've already put all of the red flags in regards to spoilers, but there's so much respect, I think, that we have for this film that we still have that trepidation of, like, who's going to who's going to break it in? To launch into it. Because

24:47Thomas: as we've already said, the the enjoyment of this film, a lot of it comes from not knowing what happens.

24:54KT: Yeah. And and that's a hard thing to sell. Right? So we can go one of two ways. So we're okay. Hi, guys. If you're still here and you haven't seen this masterpiece, you've had some nice banter. It might have been light spoilers. I don't think we've tarnished or reversed Primanoxus anyone in spoilers yet, but now you need to go. You need to go away. Right? You ready?

25:17Thomas: Yes. Two, one. He has sex with himself.

25:27KT: So I think the best way for us to just, you know, break us in and break the listeners in is let's just talk about the linear timeline. I did wanna talk about the opening scene, but then we'll kind of still be tiptoeing around the twists.

25:42Thomas: Yeah. The thing we probably should say as well is which we haven't mentioned, which is a key part of the film, is it's a time travel film. So this is why we're saying linear storyline because it's a time travel film. It jumps forward back and forth all the time. So that it that's why we're saying it's a bit confusing, that it's a bit weird, and why he has sex himself as you'll find out later. So it's a time travel film, so that's what makes it kinda hard to follow.

26:11Oti: Yeah. And just as a time travel movie, this is a good example of how to execute it. Oh, yes. I'm just scoffing at Arrival right now.

26:21KT: Arrival is the worst fucking movie ever. Have you watched it, Tom? Arrival?

26:27Thomas: Yeah. Sorry. Do you guys not like Arrival?

26:30KT: Is it? No. Do you No. No. No. Okay. Let's not get into it because we're gonna run out of Do you not like Arrival? We fucking hated it. It is garbage.

26:41Thomas: Yes.

26:42Thomas: I feel like the only person that didn't like it.

26:42KT: Oh, good. I Oh, was gonna be like, this is the shortest episode we've ever had because we're gonna

26:42Thomas: did not like it at all. I thought it was crap. It was really crap.

26:42KT: So we're going to we're going to spoil Arrival, and I feel like we've got some strong feelings. So I will allow I will adjudicate a few minutes for us to glorify how bad it is. So we're going to spoil Arrival. Okay?

27:09KT: But it's a fucking shit movie. So if you've watched it, you've spoiled yourself in all the worst ways. Okay. Tom, would you like to start off on why it was the worst?

27:19Thomas: Garbage is the worst movie. The main thing for me is I like knowing like, because it's an alien invasion film. I like knowing the alien invasion. And that, to me, was not satisfying. They're just like, oh, we need somewhere to live or whatever. I'm like, that's that's fucking dumb reason. Like, that's that's bollocks. Pacific Rim did it better. Like it's like it's not even it's not you're not even watching Pacific Rim for the fucking plot. Like No. Even they did it better. But also, yeah, the time travel stuff, like,

27:52Thomas: for those who haven't seen Arrival, she can time travel to all places at once. And and she can go into the future and then use the knowledge she gets from the future in the past or something. And, like, I get like, time travel's not real and that you know, and it's theoretical, but that's just not how it works. Right? Like, you're like, that's the worst interpretation of it.

28:18KT: But you're still explaining it in a very amicable way. The way you need to set it up, Tom, is you're sitting in the theater, and, yes, they are very skint on, you know, the foreign life forms. And we could definitely dive into that, but they didn't. Right? It was all about that forgettable actor. Is it the Arrow guy? Jeremy Renner. Yeah. Yeah. Not Nathan Fillion. See? Those are another doppelgangers as well. They kind of they focused on human shit, but that's not what we're watching this film for. Right? Yeah. The the the major foundational qualm,

28:51KT: and, Oti, you can tell me if you had a different qualm, but the foundational qualm that I had with the movie Arrival is they pretty much, like, threw all of these storylines and all of these sub arcs in the air. And then in the last few minutes, they have this really melancholic voice over. And it's like, to explain this all, time is nonlinear. You can nonlinear your fucking ass. That's what you can do.

29:22Oti: Agreed. It was just horrible.

29:25Thomas: Terrible. Terrible. That's a and, like, they try to explain this is going on a bit of a tangent, but they try to explain the whole language thing with, like, the rings and shit, and, like, I just didn't get it. I don't know if I'm just real fucking dumb, but I just didn't get it.

29:38Thomas: And and and, like, they like, half the movie hinges on you understanding that. So I feel like that was part of it as well for me. It was like they're like, oh, you know, it it it they do it from both ends or something. I'm like, what the fuck are you on about? Like

29:49KT: It was so nuanced. Don't you understand?

29:49Thomas: Oh, I'm sure it was. I don't understand

29:54Thomas: it. There'll be people messaging you guys saying, you just don't fucking get it. It's a great movie. Right. Right. Right. Right. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just too fucking stupid for it, but I didn't like it.

30:04KT: That's But it's you know, people always make fun of Batman versus Superman. And, obviously, everyone has seen this. It's all a meme with the ex the the worst one of the worst ex machinas in a story ever. Right? Superman and Batman having the same name for the mother. Right? Martha. That's one of the worst ex machinas, but I don't think it is the worst because in Arrival, that was the worst. To explain everything time is nonlinear. Fuck off.

30:33KT: How how dare you? How how dare I was ready to roundhouse kick people in cinema. We even went to the cinema for that stupid movie.

30:41Thomas: What? BvS?

30:43KT: Arrival.

30:44Thomas: Oh, Arrival. Yeah. No. I didn't watch that in the cinema, thankfully. And it's it's not cheap in Australia, guys. No. It is. It's not cheap here either.

30:52KT: I think this was just a support group for all of the terrible terribly written movies. So now that we've left a sour taste in your mouth, let's go back to one of the greats. Yeah. A good movie. An actually good movie. Like, it's literally David versus Goliath in regards to film production that we're talking about today. This needs more attention. This definitely needs more attention. But let's let's talk about it in a linear sense because that's that's where the timeline fragmented. Yeah. We wouldn't have blown the show otherwise. Yes. So

31:26KT: let's talk about it linear. So 09/13/1945 is when Jane was born in an orphanage. Mhmm. Right? Even if you wanna take a step back, Jane was dropped off by a mysterious man in a trench coat. So that's also very important. That is very important. Yep. Yes. But a nondescript man in a trench coat leaves Jane at an orphanage in 1945. She grows up. She you know what? I actually I didn't mind it. You know? A lot of people could probably be really

31:59KT: persnickety about the fact that how did she not know that she had, you know, genitals that weren't the same as other people? I actually I was fine with that. I didn't have a gripe with the fact that Jane had perfect health, so she never had to see a doctor until later on, which we'll talk about in the timeline. But she never really needed to see that. Right?

32:15Thomas: Yeah. That's actually a real thing. People can go their entire lives. Oh, yeah. I should preface this by saying I have a I have a zoology degree, so I kind of know what I'm talking about here. That that does actually happen. People can go most of their lives without knowing this.

32:15KT: Yeah. And thank you for that, Tom.

32:15Thomas: You're welcome. Bringing a little bit of knowledge to to your podcast. Bringing some substance. Something something worthwhile so you can take this away and go, I learned something today.

32:41KT: Woah. Woah. Hey. Hey. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Hey. Hey. Hey. I I did say that our accreditations aren't recognized anywhere, but we will teach you a few things.

32:59Thomas: What? Like, how to take a punch?

33:01KT: Well, lean into it, my friend. But I did say if anyone wins, like, on, like, who wants to be a millionaire or if you win any sort of lottery or any sort of game show money based on information you heard on For Your Reference, we will get 50% in perpetuity.

33:20Thomas: Definitely.

33:21KT: That And that's that's a verbal contract, my friends. Do do you know what in perpetuity means? Yes. Forever.

33:27Thomas: Yeah. But that wouldn't apply to the lottery. You know, once.

33:31KT: Time is nonlinear, motherfucker. Well, if it was good enough for Arrival, it's good enough for my way of getting out of shit. Okay. So let's go back to it. Yeah. I because, you know, I try not to look at reviews even after watching something. I know Oti likes to drill down in reviews. I try not to. But because this film was so great, I unfortunately

33:55KT: did that. And that was a big gripe that people had. How could Jane not know the whole time? Right? So I just wanna point that out. Yeah. That is not enough to break the wheels of the wagon, guys. K? Get over yourselves. Okay. So we continue on, and I don't think actually, no. I do wanna mention this because the second time around we watched it, her watching the orphanage manager lady have sex with that guy, actually, that's when she understood that she wasn't the same. The first time we watched this film,

34:27KT: I just thought it was just, you know, it was just dialogue of I'm not like everyone else. I just thought it was just generic dialogue. But now watching it the second time, and again, I might be simple and you everyone else picked it up the first time. The fact that she saw them having sex and she realized that they had different organs to her, that's when she realized it.

34:47Thomas: Yeah. It it I didn't I didn't realize, like, I didn't pick up on that the first time around either. Like, to me, it was like, I thought it was just she saw sex. Yeah. Yeah. She's a young girl. She you know, you're you're discovering you know, she's at that age that she's discovering things about sex and sexuality

35:03Thomas: and, you know, and boys and all that kind of stuff. So that kind of bit where she yeah. She's like, you know, she she's kinda discovering that didn't, yeah, didn't really click for anything from me. I went, yeah, that's fair enough. Makes sense. She's a young woman. Makes sense.

35:16KT: Yeah. And then so she continues into adulthood. Obviously, there are some scenes, and they were quite formative as well, but let's let's just keep going through the timeline, where she goes into Space Corp. Mhmm. Right? And essentially, I do wanna try and find time for this, but we have a lot of delicious morsels to digest today. So I don't know if we're going to get to it. But, essentially, it's a comfort woman sort of program for the men that go out into space. Right? Yep. Yeah. They try to shroud it in

35:50Thomas: I should we should say that by this point, she's probably in her, like, 18 mid twenties maybe.

35:50KT: Yes. That's important. That's important.

35:50Thomas: There's no no weird shit going on here. Well, not not to that elk. No. Not to that elk. No. Not that no. Not that weird.

36:08KT: Yes. So yeah. And I definitely wanna try and cover that, but let's continue in that linear sort of timeline. Unfortunately, she's not able to continue that program. And then she goes into, like, a charm school where she needs to learn etiquette because she wants to go back into Space Corp. Right? And then there becomes a very pivotal scene, which is very important to this nonlinear timeline where she bumps into a charming fellow that finished off her quote. So, you know, that's where the sparks. Just like a good reference, it gets the genitals tingling. Right?

36:53KT: How do you think Oti and I met? Come on, guys. But yes. So that's a very pivotal plot point because what permeates out of that is a relationship. And unfortunately or not, however you wanna see the story, Jane falls pregnant. So really, up until this point, let's say she's maybe in her early twenties possibly. Yeah. Up until this point, she hadn't been to a doctor or a physician as far as we know. Right? And that's not something we're gonna gripe over. Cool. So she's pregnant. She has the baby.

37:32Thomas: But also at the same time, that's when this all gets discovered. Yeah. You should all we should also say that the man leaves her at, like, just before the baby is born as well. So the man is no longer in the picture.

37:43KT: Yes. Thank you. Yes. So then she has to go through surgery, which happens, and then how do you even explain this, man? How do you even explain? Okay. So she she has to go through surgery. So she the baby's fine. The baby's safe. She has to go through surgery. Two weeks later, the kid gets kidnapped by someone. I think they did have it was a nondescript later on in the movie, it's described as A Face Like Mine, which it's one of those double and yeah. It's it's a wow. Just wow. Right?

38:20KT: I can't even form words right now. But, yes. So the baby gets kidnapped two weeks later after she gives birth. She goes through the surgery. Am I doing the timeline right? When does she get burned? She get burned after. Yes. She gets shot. Yeah. Bur she gets burned way later on. Yes. And then we get introduced to John. Yes? Yeah. After the surgery.

38:47Thomas: Yeah. So she goes through the they the doctors discover that she's got two pairs. Or not two pairs. She's got a pair of each set of reproductive organs, both male and female. So the because they but they were slightly underdeveloped. Yep. So because they the the womb was basically destroyed because of the baby, they have to reconstruct her to with the the male genitals to become a man.

39:15KT: Mhmm. Yes. And then we have mister Robertson. Did I even mention that mister Robertson I didn't. Mister Robertson was introduced earlier on in the timeline when Jane was first being introduced to Space Corp. So sorry. There's so much detail. Sorry, guys. But yeah. So mister Robertson comes again to John reintroducing the program. Yes? Mhmm. Yeah. And then a lot happens. Pretty much a lot happens. Is there anything else you wanna mention about the timeline? Should we actually take it all the way to the end of the timeline? Should we? Yes?

39:53Oti: Yeah. I think so.

39:56KT: Okay. Yeah. So, essentially, John becomes an agent, and John is carrying out a mission in regards to a bomb, which is the opening scene of the film. Yep. Yes? Yep. In that, someone comes along and tarnishes the plan, and John ends up being burnt. Okay.

40:18Thomas: That's you you've skipped a whole bit there. The whole bar scene happens before that.

40:24KT: Actually, like, bar scene is like

40:27Thomas: okay. Okay. So the bar scene happens. The bar scene happens, and then, like, the whole, like, everything else happens. And then, like, the the game is kind of a sense. That's really confusing.

40:41KT: Yeah. It's but the reason why I missed the bar scene is because it kind of becomes the exposition for everything, but you're right. You're right. Yeah. But, yes, the bar scene happens, and the whole timeline of what we're explaining doesn't even get covered in that bar scene. Right? Yeah. Yes. So going back to the bomb, John gets burned and then has to go through surgery again, more so cosmetic Yeah. For face. Yes.

41:07KT: And there are some there there are some lines there as well talking about you're not gonna be able to recognize yourself. John also mentions even my own mother won't recognize me, which is funny now knowing that we've watched the film. But, yes, goes through reconstructive surgery and literally because I don't know if we should go into it. No. Let's not go into it. So yes. So John gets burned, goes through reconstructive surgery mostly for skin and the face, and that's where we get introduced to Ethan Hawke's portrayal Yeah. Of John. Mhmm. Yes? Yep. So

41:45KT: this is where it gets very, very murky, and this is where the delicious morsels uncover in the last fifteen, twenty minutes. Right? So this is as far as I understand it. So feel free. You you guys do it already. Feel free to come in and tell me I'm wrong. So we have Ethan Hawke as the character on his final mission. So in the bar, that was in 1970. When John met Ethan Hawke's character, that was in 1970. The actual bombing, the the big event that's trying to be stopped is in 1975.

42:21KT: Right? Yep. So Ethan Hawke's character goes to his final mission in 1975. Right? It's also mentioned that there's also some subtext that he's done this too many times and he's logged more hours than any other field agent. So that's important to note as well. Mhmm. Right? So Ethan Hawke I'm just gonna say Ethan Hawke because they're both kind of named John, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine. That's fine. That's fine. So I'll just say Ethan Hawke. So Ethan Hawke goes to 1975,

42:52KT: and this is literally in the last, like, twelve minutes now what I'm talking about in this timeline. Ethan Hawke's character goes through the evidence. There's a invoice, like a sales receipt that mister Robertson gives to him and says, investigate this. Right? So he's having a look. It's for the laundromat. He's looking at all of the events that are unfolding, and he sees, like, a shadowy figure that's photographed in the laundromat. Mhmm. Right? So I was like, oh, I better investigate this. So he goes into the laundromat. And who else

43:23KT: but a future version of Ethan Hawke is sitting in the motherfucking chair? Yeah.

43:29Thomas: It's the Unabomber who is basically the main antagonist for the entire film.

43:34KT: Wow. Man. Wow. Okay. You say that. That's not even the biggest twist, in my opinion. We're gonna yeah. Let's let's keep going. Let's keep going. So the the old Ethan Hawke is confronting the present oh, not present day. The 1975 Ethan Hawke. They they pretty much have this very interesting exchange between each other and that's when the cogs in my brain started to go off. I didn't know where the cogs were going, but I knew this kind of tied everything together. Mhmm. So, essentially, the way we understand it is because

44:16KT: Ethan Hawke's character has time traveled so much, he's he's actually found a way to stop catastrophically worse that's the underlined phrases catastrophically worse events. So to stop, like, a mass bombing, he'll actually burn down the buildings before it happens.

44:34Thomas: Or he'll find an individual that he knows is Yeah. Like, to use, like, guess, a modern example, you could say, if you knew that all the nine eleven terrorists were gonna be in a building at the same time, you blow up the building. You know? Yeah.

44:50Thomas: Exactly. You kill 50 innocent people, but you save, you know, a couple of thousand because nine eleven didn't happen. You know? That was basically his reasoning behind that.

44:50KT: Uh-huh. Yeah. And that that's also a very interesting sort of theme that, again, if we have time, which we probably won't

45:06KT: that we would wanna dive into. But yes. So this older Ethan Hawke, you can call him distorted. You can call him, you know, full of justice. However you wanna describe him, he is now on a mission. And the biggest event is about to happen the next day because we're in 1975, and it's about to happen. So the Ethan Hawke that we've been following in this film has a choice.

45:32KT: And there's there's quite a nice exchange, and I do wanna go through it because I feel like I'm just throwing it out just to push this timeline along. But there are some poignant exchanges that they have with each other. The old Ethan Hawke says, if you shoot me, you'll become me. You have to try and love me again. And then you have the recurring theme throughout the film, if I could put this man in front of you, would you kill him? There's so much exposition

45:59KT: in this film. I'm getting tingles right now just thinking about it because you're learning and you're relearning everything that goes the more you talk about well, the more I talk about it, the more I'm starting to uncover. Right? So, yeah, there's this whole psyche of, okay. I'm here, and I've never I've never, you know, advocated for what the Fizzle Bomber has done. But I'm also understanding that somewhere along the line, my ideals became the Fizzle Bomber. And that's quite fascinating as well. But let's let's continue. But yes. So, essentially,

46:35KT: he has a decision to make. And spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, we've already spoiled more than this, but he ends up shooting adult, like, older The Fizzle Bomber. Ethan Hawke. Yep. Yes. Fizzle Bomber. So the way I understand it, which as you can hear in this terribly told timeline isn't very great, the way I understand it is this Ethan Hawke is now gonna become the older Ethan Hawke, and he's now waiting for John, recently Jane John, to transition into that role. And it's going to become a cycle.

47:09Thomas: Yes. Which all comes back to the kind of main theme of the film, which actually ties into the title of the film, which is Predestination, which isn't just a dumb name that someone or a numb a dumb sort of word that someone came up with. Predestination, for those of you who aren't religious, is the idea particularly found in Calvinist Christianity

47:31Thomas: that no matter what you do in this life, god has already predetermined whether you'll go to heaven or hell. So that's kind of what that comes the the whole kind of main theme of the film is, can you change your destiny? Can you change what seems to be already predestined to happen?

47:50Oti: Yeah. Because I grew up Catholic, and we were always told you're predestined to be whatever. Mhmm. So it's it's all there. And in the title, I guess I didn't really take it into that account when I first heard about this movie. Mhmm. And then just watching it and seeing the whole time loop, and I think they described it as a snake that eats its own tail. Or or

48:15Thomas: how do you pronounce that? Ouroboros, whatever it Ouroboros. Mhmm.

48:21Oti: So it's just a continuous loop. And at the end, I'm not sure what both of you could thought would happen because I just assumed that by him killing the Fizzle Bomber, it wouldn't necessarily stop the loop, or maybe it would just create multiple timelines.

48:39KT: No. It continues the loop because he's going to become the Fizzle Bomber, then John will get burned again Yep. Turn into Ethan Hawke, and that whole exchange will happen. And that baby obviously got snatched. Man, how I would love to hear if anyone has successfully explained the timeline Yeah. Of this film.

48:59Thomas: I would love to know. Thing is that Ethan Hawke the whole bar scene, Ethan Hawke is going back to talk to John. To sorry. So, you know, non burned John to basically get him to become the time travel agent so that John becomes Ethan Hawke, basically. Because Yep. If if you haven't kinda figured it out already, basically, every single character in this film is the same character. Ethan Hawke, Sarah Snook, both male and female versions of her, all of them, they're all the same character.

49:39Thomas: And, basically, it's just it's it's it's really weird because it goes from Sarah Snook as a woman, Sarah Snook to a man, then she gets burnt, or he gets burnt, and then turns into Ethan Hawke. And Ethan Hawke's job is to set up Sarah Snook's character to become him later on. So, basically, telling telling John, telling Sarah Snook, you know, this is time travel. This is what it is. And then so she can become the time travel agent and and to eventually turn to Ethan Hawke.

50:09KT: Yeah. So it it pretty much it pretty much works out in a cycle. And something quite interesting that I I definitely just want to touch on. So so, you know, the old Ethan Hawke was saying, you need to learn how to love me. Do you think it was more of a metaphorical sense or do you think it was a physical sense? Because essentially, they wanted to break the cycle. Right? We got to the point where Ethan Hawke was the Fizzle Bomber. Right? So how

50:41KT: just just from watching this without any sort of accurate sort of facts, how do you think the cycle could have been broken then? Was it a was it a physical love that they had to do like, had had to have with each other, or was it more of a metaphorical you need to accept that this is the person you are? What do you think it means?

51:00Oti: I think they already had the physical love covered.

51:06KT: And you see, that's why we can't get too deep, guys. Well, we can, but just in different ways.

51:16Oti: I don't know. Because I think I think they left it up in the air on whether or not he managed to stop the cycle from happening.

51:16KT: No. The cycle continues because he killed him.

51:16Oti: Well, I don't think I can be a 100% sure the cycle continues.

51:16KT: Tom?

51:31Thomas: Yeah. I don't know. I think yeah. The the the way it ends is very ambiguous. It reminds me a lot of the end of Inception, you know, with the the wobbling sort of Exactly.

51:44KT: Yep.

51:44Oti: To Don't haven't watched it.

51:47Oti: Actually haven't watched it.

51:47Thomas: Well, Inception ends very ambiguously, and I feel this is quite similar in that it it's not How? Feeding you whether it does or doesn't happen. Because, you know, the the final shot is of Ethan Hawke kind of staring at the camera and basically, I guess, deciding, like, what he does next. So even though he did kill him and that yeah. In that sense, you know, the the the Fizzle Bomber does say, yeah, you have to kill if you kill me, you become me.

52:17Thomas: I think it's still pretty ambiguous whether it actually does happen or not, whether he does actually become the Fizzle Bomber.

52:26KT: I don't agree with that. I I feel like the loop is continuing because what that older the what the bomber Bomber Hawke there you go. Love it. What what Bomber Hawke actually left when he got shot was that book of all of the events in history that didn't happen because he chose to sacrifice the few. Would you kill a few to save the thousands? Right? And then we flash back to when we have present Hawke talking to John's character or Sarah John's character. Mhmm. Right? And they're sitting on a bench watching female Sarah, female Jane,

53:12KT: and he says, you know who she is. You know who you are. Understand who I am. I love her too. Yeah. Right?

53:22Thomas: So the the the thing we probably haven't explained very well is that the man that we mentioned earlier that Jane meets and has sex with and has a baby is John, is her future self. And then John runs away and talks to Ethan Hawke again, because she's already talked to him by this or he's already talked to him by this point. And then Ethan Hawke says, I'm also you. And the baby that you had in the past that got stolen, that was also you slash me slash us that

53:57Thomas: I stole, me as an Ethan Hawke, I stole that baby to then go back in time to 1945 and drop it off at the orphanage. So the person that is the shady character at the start of the film and the shady character that steals the baby is Ethan Hawke's character, but he is picking up himself from the past to then take back into the more past or whatever to drop them off at the orphanage. So yeah. So Ethan Hawke is basically and Sarah Snook being the same character is having sex with themself, producing themselves,

54:31Thomas: and then putting them in the correct place so that they end up having the future that they were meant to have.

54:36KT: And something I was saying when we were watching it the first time to Oti was, okay. So she had sex with a guy that we don't know at this point is her in the future. And I was like, how could she have sex in that person? Unless that person was very progressive and just accepted,

54:54KT: you know, this is who Jane is. Like, how could that not be detected? And then because you know what? That niggling feeling, if I had followed that, I probably would have realized a lot earlier that she was the same person. But, you know, sometimes it's nice to just get so engrossed in the story, you're not trying to think two steps ahead. Right? Yeah. And I know I know, especially for me, I didn't explain that well, but, obviously, you've seen the film, and you'll give us some graces, hopefully.

55:25Thomas: Does. I I think It is not even. Extremely all Time Travel films are extremely difficult to explain, and I think this one even more so just just based off the fact, as we've already said, that basically every character in the film is the same character. I think the only character that's not the same character is the the Johnson guy. Yeah. Noah Taylor's character. Mister Robinson. Mister Robertson. Sorry. Yeah. He's, like, the only character in the film that is not actually the same character.

55:52KT: Because we talked about predestination and what it means in a religious sense. Do you think he played that role of god then? No. Because you had Bomber Hawke saying, you know, mister Robertson, he planned this. It was all part of the plan. You don't think he played some sort of deity?

56:15Oti: Think it's more to do with what the bureau does in sending agents back in time to prevent casualties. In what they are trying to do is what they ended up creating in the Fizzle Bomber because the Fizzle Bomber is a creation of the bureau at stake.

56:15KT: Yeah. And that could be that could transcend in symbolism to religion, dude. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the layers.

56:15Oti: I don't think so.

56:15KT: Okay. What do you reckon, Tom?

56:15Thomas: Yeah. I I can see where you're going with that.

56:35Thomas: I don't know if how much it works. Because they do talk about how, like, the the sort of Fizzle Bomber is created by the bureau because of what Ethan Hawke does, but they say that the Fizzle Bomber is the reason that the bureau exists. You know, basically, the the Fizzle Bomber happens, and then they invent the bureau to combat the Fizzle Bomber, I think, is kind of what ends up happening. So I don't know I don't know how much that analogy works, to be honest.

57:01KT: It's an interesting idea, though. But yeah. I guess no. But then you without getting too theological, you know, part of the crux aside from controlling people, part of the crux of religion is it gives you comfort, right, for when people pass away. And it also gives people an understanding of, you know, why can't I go and punch people in the street? You know what I mean? I'm having a rough day. Why can't I just punch my coworker?

57:28KT: And, you know, there there are some rules that are in line in regards to that. And for the bureau to exist and for religion to exist, I I I definitely see the parallels in regards to that, but maybe that's just me. Yeah. Because the the bureau or, you know, the okay. Let's talk about the film so people don't come fighting a young religion.

57:50Thomas: For Your Reference, it's now transitioning into a religious podcast. From now on, we'll only talk about religious films It's That that that show Christianity in a positive light. We'll start off by using

58:02Oti: Passion of the Christ. Passion of the Christ.

58:05KT: Fuck me. I haven't seen it, but I know how it ends. Hey,

58:10Thomas: that reminds me of another film I should recommend to you guys that's just fucking awful.

58:15KT: Okay. Well, For Your Reference. Oh. Oh, you know what? We'll have we'll have a special edition at the end of this episode of referencing things you shouldn't see. Never done this before, Tom, so you're welcome. But, yes, just going back to that, I think that's quite a strong and compelling imagery of symbolism in regards to this film. But in any case, you wouldn't need the bureau if you didn't have the bad guys, and the bad guy is the Fizzle Bomber. And

58:40KT: as far as you wanna take this, and it's as far as I wanna take it, the Fizzle Bomber was a product of the operating of the bureau. So the bureau needed a reason to exist, and they did that through creating the Fizzle Bomber in events that permeated in the film. That's all I'm gonna say.

58:59KT: You don't think so, Oti?

58:59Oti: Yeah. Well I think think I think Oti's still in the bureau. No. Unlimited use unlimited use of the time travel alarm gadget, whatever, causes unknowing Dementia and psychosis. Yes. Right? So he's meant to retire in 1975, I think. And his case just doesn't do that. Yeah. His time travel doohickey.

59:23Thomas: Yeah. It doesn't decommission.

59:25KT: Well, he chooses he chooses that time because he wants to confront the fizzle bomb. He wants to find it. So he continues using that knowing full well the effects of continued use Psychosis. But then again, there was a part of me and again, don't come and fight me religious people, but there was a part of me that made me feel like, you know, mister Henson, mister Robertson? Mister Robertson was just saying that to plant the seed that he's the problem, not the bureau. But,

59:53KT: man, we could do a whole episode on my parallels, actually, but we peaked in that too late into the episode. But I really felt like that whole decommissioning and then there was also a line in the final scene as well where, Bomber Hawke, you're welcome. If this isn't the title of the episode, then I don't know what we're doing around T shirt. That's merch. That's merch. Yes. So Bomber Hawke was saying you didn't even notify the bureau that your doohickey, is that what we're calling it? Yeah. Was decommissioned.

60:25KT: And that was a pinpoint to the fact that maybe the seed has already been planted for the Fizzle Bomber.

60:33Thomas: Because it's already predestined, mate. Well, yeah, that all comes down. Really? You just wow.

60:38KT: Wow. We've got a new time is nonlinear. Oh, but, man, there is there is so much to cover, and I think we spent a lot of time on the timeline. But I also don't think there was anything wrong with that as well. It's literally like, you know, trying to teach kids through repetition Yeah. And getting them to spread out information they don't understand. Right?

60:59Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it it it's hard to talk about it, as I said, because it is a time travel movie, and it does it kind of uniquely, and it does it so well compared to other films. But, hopefully, if the if you're listening to this, you've already seen it, so you get what we're talking about. Because Oh, yeah. It I can just I can just see all the ones. Yeah. Listening to this and, like, not seeing it and going, what the fuck are they on about? You know? So,

61:26Thomas: yeah, hopefully, if you've seen it, you get what we're talking about so it actually makes sense.

61:30KT: Yeah. And you also bring up a good point, Tom, that I just wanna expand on. Because, yes, this is a time travel film, and, obviously, it's it's quite obvious that this is a time travel film. But what I really like about this, the same way I also really like John Wick as well, is, yes, he exists in a world where he he he is an agent. I'm talking about John here. Mhmm. Not John Wick, but Predestination John.

61:55KT: He exists in a world where, yes, he's an agent and he does travel time, but that isn't the premise of the film. It's actually a story about John and the context and the background is the time traveling. Yeah. Because if you if you wanna get nerdy, there are many movies about time travel where it's, you know, the finicky bits of, you know you know, stepping on a butterfly or whatever, and, you know, it's gonna change up. There's even Family Guy episodes with Stewie and Brian, you know, tearing time

62:24KT: tearing fabrics of time as well. Right? But what I really appreciate about this film is it really is narrative driven. And if it had just focused on time traveling back and forth, then we wouldn't have had that delicious payoff.

62:39Thomas: Multiple payoffs. It's definitely more of a, I guess, say, character driven film. It's not as much, you know, the time as you say, the time travel isn't the central point of of the movie. It's it's the characters and and or the character, I guess. You you know, so it's yeah. And that's kinda why I say it does it very uniquely in a sense that it's it addresses a lot of different things that other movies don't that are about time travel and that kind of stuff. So yeah.

63:11KT: So let's okay. Because I think the best way to listen to this episode is right after watching the film because you'll be just as disoriented Perfect. As we are. But let's let's quickly go around and talk about the actual you know, the payoffs and the twists that uncovered in the film. Did you see any of them coming? Did you predict them? And what do you think was the most delicious sort of payoff? You wanna start, Tom?

63:11Thomas: Me. Yeah. So the

63:42Thomas: I I guessed the I didn't guess any of the initial ones where like, when she bumps like, when John bumps into Jane and, you know, they had that little exchange where it tell you know, they had they mentioned earlier in the film where she has this exchange with the the her new man that's quite significant. And, you know, that exchange happens the second time around, but from John's perspective, that for me was like, oh, fuck. Like, you you know, that was that was massive. I did not see that coming.

64:16Thomas: The first one that I saw coming was when Ethan Hawke reveals who he is to John. Yeah. I didn't see that till because the scene it kinda happens a bit weird where they have that scene happen, but then they don't actually reveal until later on. I don't think until, like, right at the end of the movie until is when they actually reveal what that ex how that exchange went down with him revealing the the scars and and that kind of stuff. So yeah. I kind of saw that one coming kind of towards the end,

64:49Thomas: but I wouldn't say I, yeah, I guessed any of them. Like, the Unabomber one was probably the only one that I outright guessed. Yeah. Or the the sorry, the Fizzle Bomber. The Unabomber's real. Fizzle Bomber is not real.

65:01Thomas: But yeah. So when he sorta he's going to the you know, he like, kind of that bit where he's going to the laundromat and he's kinda figuring it out and stuff, that's when I basically just put a ball in the I just basically threw my threw it out there and just went, I bet he's the fucking Fizzle Bomber. Like, I bet it's him. Yeah. You know, that was the only one that probably just throwing it out there? Yeah. I it was the only one that I guess probably a good couple minutes before it actually happened.

65:21Thomas: Mhmm. And then by that point, when they're kind of going through that montage of the at the end to kinda wrap everything up and they show Ethan Hawke showing the scars and that it's him and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I only guessed that probably just before or, like, kind of just after the Fizzle Bomber scene, and I was kinda like, oh,

65:38Thomas: you know, like, it's it's all you know, as you say, the the gears are working, you know, they they they they turn in, and you're just kinda figuring it all out. So I'd say 99% of the movie didn't see it coming.

65:51Oti: I had I didn't see anything coming at all.

65:57KT: But sometimes that's good as well. But

65:59Oti: it had quite a it was literally telling us, there was this weird song singing at the bar. I'm my own grandpa. And nobody I thought that was just a folksy anyway. Yes. Yeah. And and they they repeated it, like, twice or something. I was like, that must be in something, but my mind was like, nah. Just gonna leave it. Let's just continue. But, yeah, I I've missed a lot of this. And I think one of the most, I think, fundamental things is this movie was pretty much named after the predestination paradox,

66:29Oti: which pretty much states that if you were to change something in the past, your your change would actually be the cause of that event happening. So you could see how they've overlaid it to this, and it's just done brilliantly. And I missed everything. I'm not I don't feel bad for saying that. It just goes to show how well this thing was written.

66:55KT: We if you've listened to our podcast and you haven't realized this by now, Oti and I are very different watchers. Right? Like, it it gets to the point where I'm literally, like, kicking and being like, dude, this is gonna happen. This is gonna happen. But he just sits there, and he's very patient, and he just lets it happen. And meanwhile, I'm just throwing things at him at the screen and being like, what the fuck is going on? But wow. I I'm also

67:24KT: I'm very annoying. I'm like your English school teacher. I'm a pause in I'm a pause for analysis sort of person. So every time unless we're in the cinema, I'm not going to commandeer your cinema to pause the film. But I will I'll be like, Oti, pause it. And then I'll just say something because I get annoyed because this is what used to happen. We used to watch films,

67:46KT: and I used to just keep it all to myself. And then at the end, I will say to Oti, I saw that coming. He's like, no. You didn't. So now I just shout it. I shout it into his ear, and I'm like, I think this is going to happen. I think this is going to happen. And he gets annoyed at me, but at least I know that I can prove that I Check the twist. I figured it out. Check check the walls. Exactly. Bring it back. Bring it back.

68:11KT: Okay. So in regards to the twists and I don't really like the connotation of the use of the word twist because it becomes like a trope. Right? I don't that's why I really don't like calling this a twist. I'll just call them the payoffs. Right? I halfway through the film, I theorized that John was Jane.

68:33Thomas: Mhmm.

68:34KT: And that that kind of answered it for me. I'm like, oh, look at me. I solved the hardest crossword puzzle. Like, I I I I just closed the loop, and I understand it. I didn't realize that Ethan Hawke was also John. That busted me wide open. I'm like, how how dare you? I've watched a couple of movies. I know that you only give me a few payoffs, and that's it. Right? Yeah. So I'm just sitting there all smug, and that blew me wide open. And I really enjoyed that as well.

69:05KT: When he went to go back and retire in 1975 and he started to look at the laundromat, I I oh, I didn't even dare want to think of it. And when we saw Bomber Hawke, oh, there were screams. Yeah. But then again All pleasurable. It's Robertson that gave him the hint to that pointed him to the But that's what I'm saying because it's because he's trying to make sure that the cycle continues. Yeah. And then when we found out that

69:35KT: current day Hawke was the one that kidnapped the baby and also put the baby in the orphanage, man, I I started to think maybe I'm Oti in the present, and Oti is future KT. And maybe Tom is in the mix as well. Like, does anything mean anymore? I was ruined in all the best ways

69:56Thomas: Yeah. That's that's part of the reason why I recommended it is because I knew it would get you. I knew I knew you'd watch this. And, yeah, I I knew it would get you real good. I'm glad it did.

69:56KT: You you must have heard us. You must have heard us screaming all the way because we're literally neighbors. Right?

69:56Thomas: Yeah. Because was I was thinking. The

70:16Thomas: night that I knew that you were probably gonna be watching it, I was I was thinking I was like, I wonder how they're feeling. I wonder wonder which method they're up. So I wonder you know? So yeah. No. I'm really glad it it really it got you good because yeah. That's that's it got me the same way, and every person I've recommended it to, it also got them the same way as well.

70:35KT: And it's it's a delicious film, and the and I don't want them to do because I know people milk shit and they make sequels, and I don't want them to make another film. But I do have questions. One minor sort of question that I had is when in in the final scene, Bomber Hawke was talking about, what, did you wanna settle down with Alice from the antique store and talking about the weird birthmark? And that got me thinking, do you think that there were instances where

71:03KT: current day Hawke actually did try and break the cycle, and it just didn't work because he was always predestined to be this way?

71:11Thomas: Yeah. I don't know.

71:12KT: Right?

71:13Thomas: Yeah. I guess I guess it it may be that kind of, you know, with the the antiques lady, it's perhaps hinting at the fact that he could break the cycle if he wanted to. You know?

71:22KT: He was very specific in his examples about her having a cat, her having a weird birthmark. It just seemed like it was informed is my point. And that's delicious because it gets it gets you going. You know? You don't need M. Night Shyamalan to wrap it up in a dream.

71:22Thomas: Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if that's

71:22KT: You can digest this for years.

71:22Thomas: Yeah. I wonder if that's because, like, it kinda shows that he tried.

71:48Thomas: Like, the the guy who becomes the Fizzle Bomber, he tries to break the cycle by Yeah. You know, going out with her and and living with her and trying to live his life, but he he always comes back to this one thing. You know, like, he's got the the the time travel doohickey in his in a box, in his attic or whatever, and it's always there. And he's kind of you know, he thinks about it every now and again. Eventually, it becomes too much, and he has to go out and become the Fizzle Bomber. So I reckon that it might indicate that he tried or or that potentially it could he could break the cycle.

72:16Thomas: But yeah. I don't know.

72:19Oti: I think he he he genuinely tried to break the cycle. Yeah. Many times, probably. And he just he couldn't.

72:27KT: Because some things are just predestined.

72:29Thomas: Exactly. The other thing I I kinda wanna add as well with you bringing up M. Night Shyamalan. I think this is a much better film for twists. I know we're not calling them that, but twists, you know, they're this it's so much better for

72:29KT: Oh, Totally.

72:29Thomas: You know, any M. Night Shyamalan film I've seen has never done a twist this good, I think.

72:29KT: Oh, yeah. And it's usually

72:52KT: even if it's, like, a few twists, it's all permeating off one. Yeah. Exactly. Right? So it's like a dun dun dun instead of having wholly separate realized substantial payoffs Definitely. That that existed even through the film. Because I think I mentioned this earlier in the episode, but watching that opening scene again, that actually was John that got burned. But we just assumed it was Ethan Hawke because it was superimposed with his voice over.

73:19Thomas: Yeah. And that if you actually look at the character as well, which I think is very interesting, if you look well, the actress or the actor, I'm pretty sure it's Sarah Snook is actually the person Yeah. Playing Yeah. That character at that time.

73:35KT: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Even when you have the bandage character, that's still Sarah as well as John.

73:39Thomas: Yeah. Which I feel is a level of kind of they didn't have to do that because it's not super obvious that, you know, who you know, like, the the face is real burnt and they're covered in bandages and all that kind of stuff. So you don't have to do that. But I feel because you could've just got some innies sort of bum fuck actor to just get in there and and just do it. Right? You know, you don't have to pay them as much because they're not one of the leading characters.

74:00Thomas: But I feel that that level of commitment to getting, you know, the actual other actress in and getting them to do that scene, I feel like that that adds just that extra sort of, you know, extra cherry on top to to make it just that little bitty, you know, little bit better, I think.

74:17KT: And this is a perfect example of people making films with a purpose. People making films for a reason and not just to milk you out of your dollars that you make at your nine to five. This was really rewarding in every sense of the word. And I for people that didn't care for this film, please do not invite yourself into our Twitter mentions. I do not care for you. I am living a great life, and I don't need your negativity in my world because this film was exemplary.

74:50Thomas: Don't come to my Twitter mentions either, please, because I'll do exactly the same thing. I don't give a fuck what you think. It's a fucking great film.

74:58KT: Yeah. But Tom likes to disagree with me. So The end of how good the film is, actually. That's how good the film is. Is there anything else? Let's let's let's wrap up. Unfortunately, we are hitting that sweet time spot. So before we go into I'll I'm very excited because we're gonna do two For Your References. Before we go into For Your Reference, let's have some closing thoughts. Oti, you wanna go first? Yeah.

75:24Oti: So if he just wants to be entertained from the first minute to the last, this is the movie. Like, it's even when I said that it was a bit I didn't understand what the movie was until halfway through. Until that point, it was quite well told. Like, it's just a bit slow, but in that the story, the narrative is quite there, and it's good. Yeah. So it's it's just brilliantly made. A fan. I would be watching it soon. It has really good rewatchability value as well. So Yeah. Because so much care was taken in like like Tom was saying, they didn't have to get the same actors or actresses to do those nuanced sort of scenes, but they did. Just it's a good movie. Watch it. Rewatch it. I'll be doing that.

76:00Thomas: Yeah. I think I think it bears repeating what I said kind of at the start is if you are getting through, you know, as Oti just said, it is a bit slow kind of in the first kind of half of the movie. And if you're getting to that towards the end of that first half going, shit. I don't like this. This is too slow. I'm really bored. Just fucking stick with it. Like, the you know, we've we've been talking about the payoffs the whole time. I mean, you probably already watched it at this point, so I don't need to tell you that. But, you you know, hopefully, that's what you did is you stuck with it, got all the way through it, and and got that really big, you you know, absolutely,

76:44Thomas: you know, pants-wetting kind of payoffs towards the end. But I think yeah. For for a a fucking $2 DVD that I picked up one night because I thought it might be okay, absolutely fucking fantastic. Like, it's it it's one of the few films that I feel does time travel right. You know, you get a lot of films that just that really fuck it up. There's a lot of holes, you know, that kind of stuff. And I feel that this is one of those ones where I came out the other end,

77:11Thomas: and I didn't really have anything where I thought they had missed missed something or they hadn't Mhmm. They could have explained something a bit more. I feel like it very nicely wraps up, which is very unusual for a lot of time travel films. So, yeah, absolutely bloody great.

77:29KT: Yeah. Well, in my closing remarks, I would like to formally thank you, Tom.

77:29Thomas: Oh, thanks.

77:29KT: Because if people follow us on Twitter, they probably think we're enemies. But but for for all of our tiffs and for all of our one upsmanship, I wow. This if if this podcast has brought us anything, it's this film.

77:46Thomas: Oh, that's great. I'm as I said, I'm really glad that it that it got you as well as it got me. But, yeah, thank you very much for for having me on. It's it's been very, very good. It's nice to do things. As much as I love doing my own podcast and doing history and that kind of stuff,

78:05Thomas: I like you know, I I really like movies. So the this kind of stuff is is something that I really enjoy. So thank you very much for for well, I say inviting me, for finally giving in to inviting me on.

78:16KT: We were always going to have you on. What I want to also just interject is, you know, we live in a world of instant gratification. And, you know, there was nothing you could do. It was predestined, right? With technology advancing, it was always going to happen. You have, you know, even porn at your fingertips. And when we're talking about self gratification, that's the climax.

78:41Thomas: I mean, that's the ultimate self gratification, isn't it? I feel very gratified every time.

78:47KT: But my my point in that is we're in a fast consuming world, and it's like, give it to me now or give me something I already know. Just remake it. Right? For all of the people and I know we already did a Lion King episode. But for all of the people that keep whining and complaining but you still continue to buy tickets of remakes and reboots, go and watch something that's independent. Go and watch something that isn't as popular, that has wholly substantial

79:13KT: narratives, and this is the film. If you've enjoyed this, continue to seek out these sorts of films. Upgrade is another nice, humble Australian film from Leigh Whannell. Check that out. And, also, if I can plug, listen to our episode. But, you know, there are films out there that will give you an all encompassing experience.

79:34KT: So stop putting yourself on autopilot. Yep. And don't be those people that watch it. I don't like when people say they watch things, but then they also go and do laundry and shit. You're not watching it then.

79:34Thomas: Yeah. Definitely. The other thing I'll say to that as well is, know, John Wick, you know, we've mentioned him a couple of times, is an absolute juggernaut He

79:53Thomas: started out in the same spot. I found John Wick exactly the same way I found Predestination as the first one came out when I was working at this DVD store, picked it up, looked at the back, went, looks alright. I'll give it a go. Obviously, it was fucking fantastic. But, you know, that's an you know, these sorts of movies have original storylines that don't get made very often because Hollywood doesn't wanna put money into them, which is a whole another thing entirely.

80:16Thomas: But these movies are out there. The you know, the you there are movies out there like this that are totally original, extremely different to anything that you've ever seen before.

80:27Thomas: And, you know, you just gotta go out and find them. Yeah. You'll find a couple of stinkers in there, you'll switch them off and think it's absolutely crap. But that's part at least for me, that's part of the experience. Right? Like Yeah. You can laugh about these really shit movies. You know, you might have teen really shit movies that some of them are really funny and some of them are just absolutely terrible, but you'll get one that is just absolutely phenomenal, and it will happen, and you will find them.

80:50Thomas: So it it's definitely worth doing, in my opinion.

80:54KT: Yeah. And let me close off with one of the final quotes of the film. The only thing I know for sure is you are the best thing that happened to me. I miss you dreadfully. Oh, such a good quote. Sploosh Mountain, my friend. Yep. Sploosh Mountain all around. Pretty sure that's literally the last line. Yes. And I think that's how New Zealand was formed. Right? Sploosh Sploosh Mountain? Sploosh Mountain? And it all solidified and turned into New Zealand. Invite me to your podcast, Tom.

81:26Thomas: I mean, I I I yeah. You actually have to have credentials to come on to mine, unfortunately. Actually have to have, like, you know, letters after your name and actually know shit about history and stuff, unfortunately. So, yeah, you can't just invite anyone you want, I'm I'm afraid.

81:41KT: Sorry about you left these it's good to know you left these fighting words until after we did the episode. Cheap shot, my friend. Well, let's get into For Your Reference, You know, guys, let the panties breathe. We're about to finish it off. Finish off your snacks. Finish off your beverages. If it's your own fluids, we don't judge. But let's go into For Your Reference. We had such a great episode today. If you want to, you can also plug films that people shouldn't watch.

82:14KT: And then our original For Your Reference, which is referencing films that you might enjoy or even TV shows you might enjoy if you also like Predestination. Tom, as our guest.

82:14Thomas: Me.

82:14KT: Okay. I don't know what you've been. Going to say I was going to say maybe returning guests, but then because of your cheap shot, maybe not returning them to you.

82:14Thomas: Fucked it. Did I?

82:14KT: A good reference

82:38Thomas: away. Yeah. So I don't really have any that you shouldn't watch. Sci fi is quite a sparse genre already that, you know, there are there isn't really much out there, actually, in general. But the one that I would recommend that was another film that I felt didn't get enough love was Blade Runner 2049. It is arguably the best sci fi film I've ever seen, and that's coming from a, you know, twenty years ish of being a Star Wars nut. Blade Runner 2049, I think, is is it it's amazing. The cinematography,

83:18Thomas: the the the sound, the acting, it's absolutely just one of the best movies, yeah, probably I've ever seen. It's absolutely fantastic. And it's very it's a long one, but it's very deep. It's got a lot of, you know, again, a lot of layers. It's like an onion. It's got a lot of layers.

83:36Thomas: But it's it's very, very good. And the other one that I would recommend as well is actually a New Zealand film. I actually have had this on my list for some time and only actually got around to watching it in preparation for this for this episode. So the New Zealand film is called Mega Time Squad, and it's a comedy time travel movie about a guy who lives in Thames, which is a town in the North Island Of New Zealand, and he accidentally

84:06Thomas: cocks some shit up and ends up getting a bracelet that allows him to travel back in time. But the way time travel works in this film is that he can interact with himself over and over and over. So he builds the Mega Time Squad, which is about six different versions of him going around having various shenanigans. And it's a very Kiwi film. It's got one of the guys from

84:29Thomas: What We Do in the Shadows. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Taika Waititi or the No. Not that one. Not Jermaine Clement, the other one, who I can't remember. It's one of the vampires that isn't yeah. Jermaine Clement, not Taika Waititi. It's or the the, like, Nosferatu guy. It's the other one, and I can never remember his name, and I do apologize. But yeah. So it that's a it's a very funny film. It's a very Kiwi film. There's a lot of Kiwi

84:54Thomas: jokes, a lot of Kiwi kind of humor. But, yeah, if you're kind of into that What We Do in the Shadows or, you know, other Taika films it's not a Taika Waititi film, but if you're into that kind of New Zealand humor and you you want another time travel film, Mega Time Squad is really, really good, in my opinion.

85:14KT: Cool. I will speak on behalf of the For Your Reference household, which never happens. He likes to be led, guys. We

85:27Oti: are not said that.

85:29KT: We are not getting into that today. Well, I said it because I'm the past you, aren't I? Man, this is gonna go on forever. But, yes, For Your Reference, we've got we've got two for this week. We talked about a lot throughout the episode as well just because we talked about John Wick and because I fucking love that film trilogy, soon to be quad quadrilogy or whatever you I don't know what you call it. Okay.

86:01Thomas: We'll check it.

86:02KT: We'll accept it. John Wick, because I am all about character driven narratives, and that's what John Wick is. Yes. It's about him being a kick ass spy, you know, shooting people twice to make sure they're dead, which is very important.

86:20KT: But, really, it is the crux of him and his wife and what permeates out of, you know, out of those events. Right? So John Wick, also check out our episode if you've listened to John Wick. And if you exist in a world where you watch Predestination and not John Wick, I would love to meet you. You are a marvel to all, nontrademark. The other film that I will reference is Parasite, which is a film that came out this year. South Korean film that won at the Cannes Film Festival by director Bong Joon-ho,

86:51KT: and it is a great film. It's also a film that the less you know about it, the better. And let me tell you, my friend, the payoffs will form a sploosh mountain, and you can have your own New Zealand. That is historically accurate on the For Your Reference podcast. But that's it, guys. We made it. Thank you so much, Tom. Do you wanna plug

86:51Thomas: Oh, am I allowed to?

86:51KT: Podcast?

87:15KT: I'll allow it.

87:15Thomas: You'll allow it. Okay. As I said at the start, I do a history podcast, so it's a lot less me talking shit and a lot more me talking from a script about, obviously, the history of Aotearoa in New Zealand, which as I mentioned is where I'm from. So you can find me on iTunes or all the other places that you get your podcast normally, or you can connect on me with at Twitter at history Aotearoa or Facebook at History of Aotearoa New Zealand podcast or on the website, which is historyaotearoa.com.

87:49Thomas: And for those of you who don't know how to spell it, it's Aotearoa is spelled A O T E A R O A.

87:56KT: Cool. On Twitter and Instagram, we are @ForYourRefPod. We recently launched a YouTube. What what? So find us on there. Give us a rating. Give us a review. Also, for Tom's podcast as well. Support independent creatives like us and also also the film, but also support us as well. And we'll see you next week, guys. See you next week.